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Welcome

Welcome!

Hello, Tomcloyd, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
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• How to write a great article
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! Literaturegeek | T@1k? 11:05, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Awards

A barnstar for your userpage

Tireless Contributor Barnstar

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		I am awarding this barnstar to you for your excellent work in improving the post-traumatic stress disorder article.Literaturegeek | T@1k? 00:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar for your hard work

		The Original Barnstar
		For your perseverance on the PTSD article, I award you this barnstar. Keep up the great work. MarmadukePercy (talk) 04:08, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Some bubble tea for you!

Hi Tom, thanks a googol for all you've already done as a Misplaced Pages Regional Ambassador, including your awesome efforts at developing solid Misplaced Pages presence in brand new states for this program! I speak for the entire Misplaced Pages Global Education team when I say that I really really appreciate it. I'm giving you a bubble tea because I think at some point you told me you're interested in Asia... Annie Lin (Wikimedia Foundation) (talk) 22:33, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Interest in Ambassador Program

Hi Tom, Mike Christie indicated that you oversee the ambassador program in the NW. I am a professor at Linfield College in McMinnville, OR and am using a Misplaced Pages project for the first time this semester. Any ideas for class support you can provide are greatly appreciated. It has been a somewhat bumpy road as students are working on pages that are also serving as projects for students from other institutions. If I use this assignment again next semester I would like to avoid this. Additionally, having a skilled Wikipedian (something I am not) to assist in the early stages of learning to navigate Misplaced Pages would be most helpful to students. Many thanks in advance for your time and help. Tatompki (talk) 22:26, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Tatompki, hi, and welcome! I see that you are well underway, and that Cindy has joined you, and that Mike (a trained Misplaced Pages Campus Ambassador) is in touch. All good, and helpful. Now let's get you formally on board with the Misplaced Pages Global Education Program, so we can put some of our resources at your disposal. I have to go feed a kid just now, but will return with more. Much more. I think it will be helpful.Tom Cloyd (talk) 00:47, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for getting in touch Tom. I look forward to learning more about the Global Education Program. Although our semester is quickly coming to a close it will be helpful to have additional resources for next time around. Many thanks! Tanya Tatompki (talk) 22:38, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Pregnancy

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Please comment on Talk:Southern Baptist Convention

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Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mythology

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Please comment on Talk:Jupiter (mythology)

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Please comment on Talk:Secular humanism

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January 2012

NPOV issue?

Welcome to Misplaced Pages, and thank you for your contributions. One of the core policies of Misplaced Pages is that articles should always be written from a neutral point of view. A contribution you made to Dissociative identity disorder appears to carry a non-neutral point of view, and your edit may have been changed or reverted to correct the problem. Please remember to observe this. Thank you.

Nonsense. What I changed violated NPOV, and my argumentation on Talk page supported this; my edits move things much closer to a justifiable neutral point of view. I suggest you read what I wrote there on the Talk page, which was quite clear, and respond, if you care too. Tom Cloyd (talk) 20:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh my Gosh! I totally agree with what Tom Cloyd is saying. You Mr. Dreamguy are a bully!~ty (talk) 02:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

COI issue?

Also, from your talk page comments, there is good reason to believe your edits further violate our conflict of interest rules. DreamGuy (talk) 19:30, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense, again. This tactic is a veiled attempt at launching an ad hominem argument, and won't be tolerated by me for a minute. It matters not who I am; it matters only what I say. Surely you are familiar with this concept.

I'm taking this issue to the DID article talk page, where it belongs.Tom Cloyd (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Talk pages

Please shorten your talk page posts and sign them. Both make it easier to edit the main page and are a courtesy to other editors. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I have no trouble with the length of my talk page posts. They are well formatted, and responses may easily be inserted into the clearly demarcated sections. Tom Cloyd (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

You may not have any problem with it, but you're not the only editor working on the page. Out of courtesy, please try to keep your posts short. Further, WP:CONSENSUS isn't "whatever I think it is", thus claiming you have consensus to revert to your preferred version is not accurate. Two other editors, myself and Dreamguy, have disagreed and reverted repeatedly. Consensus means discussing on the talk page, and deciding on what version best agrees with the consensus of sources based on the policies and guidelines. It doesn't mean removing the sections you don't like, and it doesn't mean removing peer-reviewed sources you disagree with. The purpose of wikipedia is to document the scholarly opinion as a whole, not just the version one editor likes. At least a significant minority of published scholars believe DID may be iatrogenic, and this should be documented in the page. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:34, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Tom Cloyds posts on the talk page are complete and easy to understand. They are far better than the angry posts made by WLU and Dreamguy. You two men are acting like police men with EXTREME POV's! You do not want any changes at all to what you seem to think is YOUR article. This attitude is getting very tiresome! How many times are you going to pound those of us that want to edit the article. Is this how you get rid of everyone?~ty (talk) 02:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

If iatrogenic causality is such an issue, why is it not cropping up in any of the very authoritative review books I've examined and shared with the DID Talk page?

As for my understanding of consensus, see that same page for a clarification.Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:39, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

That conveniently ignores the fact that I have provided several recent, reliable sources that I shared on the DID talk page, and you dismissed them as "useless". Sources are not "useless", they are reliable or they are not. We can take them to the RSN if you'd like. If I had to hazard a guess why the books don't reference iatrogenesis, I would guess the field has split into two mutually-exclusive camps - "iatrogenetic artifact" on one hand, and "trauma-based coping" on the other, similar to what happened with satanic ritual abuse in the 1990s.

As for consensus - please review WP:CONLIMITED, in particular the part that says "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope." The consensus on the page must be bound within the larger consensus of the policies and guidelines in general - that means a article that uses reliable sources to verify the summary of the topic in a neutral fashion that gives due weight to minority and majority opinion without engaging in original research. By selectively removing and discounting only reliable sources that mention and discuss iatrogenesis because you personally do not believe it is relevant to the topic, you are misrepresenting the scholarly consensus. Essentially, if I can find multiple recent, reliable, secondary sources to support a point, it deserves a place on the page. I can, I have, I've linked them, and they should be integrated. I would also like to point to this section of WP:CONSENSUS, with emphasis added to some relevant sections:

I keep referring to policies and guidelines rather than my personal opinion. All editors are expected to do the same. Your posts will carry much more weight with me if you reference any of our core content policies, rather than simply including what you think should be done based on your expertise, or personal opinion. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

You Sir, WLU keep referring to YOUR interpretation of the rules. You link to a huge page instead of explaining things like Tom Cloyd did, then you complain when he makes a complete post explaining things so everyone understands what he is talking about.~ty (talk) 02:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU, you keep getting seriously muddled, and I have yet figure out why. With this -

...I am in complete agreement. Why would I not be? My education is that of a scholar. I don't need to be advised as to scholarly method, nor on argumentation. I have taught those subjects, and my writing evidences clear understanding of them. They don't just give away graduate degrees, especially not in psychology.

That said, well argued trivia MUST be low priority content in this article. Relevance is of the essence. In philosophy, we distinguish validity (good logic) from truth {good premises AND good logic), and both from validity (relevance). Arguments can easily be valid, and true, and trivial, and thus not worthy of attention. In the professional psychology community, for example, the Sybil case is not discussed because it is a single case, it had no documented influence on the course of professional thought in psychology, and therefore is not worthy of our attention. It's that simple. I have already backed up this assertion with multiple high-quality references from the professional literature. You and DG have simply ignored them. No discussion.

By so doing, you render yourselves irrelevant. You simply don't seem to know how to do what needs to be done on the DID article: examine professional reviews of the literature and summarize their results in a coherent way. Do I REALLY need to cite some "policy" to back that up? Are you that ignorant? I really do not think so, and I have not thought so on a number of things, which is why I haven't been quoting policy every time I breathe. I have been making a mistake plainly. Without "policy" you appear to have no idea what to do here at all. No insult intended whatsoever. One either understands basics of scholarly method or one does not. I'll grant that you do know a number of things, but I don't see big-picture understanding.

You also don't have adequate grasp of the professional literature. You're fixated on the sensational and the controversial. Believe me, professional psychologists are not. We don't have time for such trivia.

OK...I'll proceed on that assumption. That may lead to less fracus. Sad, but probably true.Tom Cloyd (talk) 06:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WOW! That is exactly what I am thinking as well on every single point! If you were not so brilliant, some might think we were the same person. This is the obstacles that I see as well. WLU is lost without his tool kit of WP rules (which do not need to be recited repeatedly and used as an excuse. We get them!) and is lacking knowledge of the subject he wants to edit.~ty (talk) 16:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Wrong, wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth, and forbids original research. We substitute the expert judgment of peer review for our own opinions - that is to say, page content is determined by reliability, not whether we think it's a good argument or not. We use the relative number and respectability of sources (as determined by the prominence, impact factor and general reputation of the author, publisher and journal) to determine weight.

Nobody is saying Sybil determined professional thought - that's why it is discussed in the History section, where it is identified by Robert Rieber as the third-most prominent and well-known case in history. You have cited and claimed absence of discussion of Sybil as a reason to ignore it - the discussion is not absent, I've cited at least nine articles that mention the case and two that are solely devoted to discussing it. No source will cover every possible aspect of a condition or idea, but if many do discuss one particular aspect, that means it is suitable for inclusion.

I determine what needs to go in the article based on WP:NPOV, particularly WP:UNDUE, and WP:SS. I determine the lead based on WP:LEAD. I quote policy every time I post because policy is that important - it determines page content, level of detail, summaries, weight given to a topic, which sources to use, editor behavioural standards and more. Please, take your "policy is less important than my expertise" idea to any noticeboard you want and see what the response is. You might also want to look into the Essjay controversy.

I'm not fixated on the sensational and controversial, and I'm not saying the page should be rewritten to focus solely on iatrogenesis. I am saying there is sufficient debate and discussion in the professional literature that iatrogenesis represents at minimum a sufficiently large minority opinion it deserves to be discussed in a serious way and at minimum mentioned in the lead. It is not trivial, and I am not asking you to take my word on this - I am demonstrating it by providing many reliable sources that actively discuss iatrogenesis. Sources that you have dismissed as "useless" for no reason I can see aside from you personally disagreeing with them. Personal disagreement is not sufficient. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU you keep saying the same things over and over again. We get the rules. We get the whole idea of opinion. Quit brow beating us with it. We know. We are not expressing our own opinions. We are expressing those of the respected researchers in the area of dissociative identity disorder! We will give references to back up those ideas. You have not let us edit yet so we can do this! You keep policing the page! Please get off your high horse and let go of your ego for a bit and let others work on the page! I say this with respect. I don't want to be mean, but darn it, you are like an immovable force that guards a palace and no one is going to enter that you do not want to. Get this one thing through that thick skull of yours please! We are not going to be putting OUR opinion on the DID page! It will not be original research! It will be well through out material backed up by strong resources that are NOT primary! Please quit accusing us of anything else! This is getting very old! As far as controvery, what Tom Cloyd said above is dead on. Also, it's like you learned a big word, iatrogenesis, and you won't let it go. It's funny. I don't know if I should be laughing at your stubbornness (to put it nicely) or feeling sorry for you, but their way, it's a HUGE problem.~ty (talk) 16:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Yep, I certainly do keep repeating myself because there is no indication my point has been grasped or acknowledged. You may think you get the rules, but your interpretation is very different from mine and misses the fact that my edits are also accompanied by reliable sources. These aren't my opinions - they are the opinions of scholars published in peer reviewed journals. This isn't ego, it's irritation that sweeping claims are made about the article without an acknowledgement that there are at least two sides to the debate and both need to be mentioned. I keep hitting "iatrogenesis" because that's one of two substantive disagreements apparent on the page (as evidenced by the removal from the lead and causes section). The second is the amount of weight given to a discussion of Sybil. What do you think of the current version? It's three sentences long with three citations. Can you live with the current version? Do you have any concrete suggestions for improvement? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Canvassing

Please review WP:CANVAS - contacting specific editors you think might be likely to agree with you, or with whom you have a pre-existing relationship, is very, very bad form. Instead, seek a neutral party through dispute resolution, a request for comment, or if you think user conduct is sufficiently egregious to demand immediate attention, administrator's noticeboard. For user conduct, look to wikiquette alerts or user requests for comment. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I do know how to vet my actions here before I make them, and I most certainly read all kinds of things in the Misplaced Pages: namespace. I understand the wp:canvassing article. Canvassing is fine; improper canvassing (defined in the article) is just as you say above. I am canvassing at the moment, and will soon post the proper notification about this. Your post above appears to be in good faith, so I'm going to take it as such. I find your behavior otherwise most certainly NOT in good faith, and I will take appropriate action as I see fit.Tom Cloyd (talk) 21:01, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

That's great, I'm still curious why you aren't looking towards a noticeboard, or simply discussing on the talk page why you think it's OK to simply remove sources. And I'll go drop a neutral note off at DreamGuy's talk page to fill him in.

Feel free to "take appropriate action as I see fit", given the circumstances I might worry about WP:BOOMERANG though. I don't need to be threatened, I know what I'm doing, and the reason I'm as irritated as I am is because you're not actually citing much beyond your opinion. If you're an expert, I expect you to have access to the kinds of sources that would make it easy to verify your opinion - and it's those sources I'm interested in rather than the opinion you formed with them. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 21:19, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Don't need your permission, actually. I have no worries at all about WP:BOOMERANG. I know what you're doing, too. It's called bullying, and I loath bullies.

As for my sources, they ARE posted, quite obviously, in the documentation to my original edits. I should not have to repeat myself. I DO have access to a world of excellent sources, and I know how to use them. What you don't understand is that this is NOT a pop culture topic; it's a professional topic. Get that straight and you'll be doing a whole lot better with your edits.Tom Cloyd (talk) 21:47, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that in my opinion you have been ignoring policies despite being pointed to them repeatedly, and insisting your expertise overwhelms WP:V. I also have access to sources and more importantly the search engines to acquire more - as do you. To date I haven't seen you actually engage with any source and point to a policy-based reason why they should be discounted. In these edits you simply claimed sources were "useless" and couldn't access a google books preview. If you think a source isn't reliable (a valid reason to remove it), then reference WP:RS and WP:MEDRS to illustrate why. Disagreements can be raised on a source-by-source basis at the reliable sources noticeboard. A google books preview is merely a convenient way to access the actual source - which is the book itself. There is very obvious disagreement in the field - a neutral article discusses controversy, it doesn't pick a side and ignore the other. The fact that I appear to be able to find so many sources that point to the possible iatrogenic nature of DID indicates there is very much an opinion that DID is in part iatrogenic. Simply on the basis of being able to find nearly a dozen recent sources that discuss this means the potentially iatrogenic nature of DID should be included.

There is no "pop culture" section on the page - it is linked via a {{main}} template in the otherwise-empty society and culture section. Where do you see "pop culture" in the article now? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:28, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I could not agree stronger that what WLU is doing is down right plain and simple mean BULLYING! What is this extreme POV you are fighting so hard to protect on the DID page, that you will not let any of us work on it. You act like you just robbed a bank and you are afraid you are going to be caught. WLU, please stop being so mean!~ty (talk) 02:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but nobody gets to ignore the policies and guidelines because other editors are "being mean". Go ahead, bring my conduct up at ANI or any other noticeboard. We can discuss thinks like the removal and discounting of obviously reliable sources on the basis of what appears to be solely personal opinion. Go ahead, I double-dog dare you. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 02:42, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Double Dog Dare me? I feel like I am dealing with children. ~sigh~ You don't have to push. The process is already began.02:49, 17 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tylas (talk • contribs)

Please notify me of any noticeboard discussions. Your contributions show no posting to message boards, and your comment could imply either stealth canvassing via e-mail or meatpuppeting off-wiki. If either is the case, it's a problem. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 03:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

If I can't play fair, I don't play. I do not know to what Tylas is referring. She obviously has little difficulty with initiative or self-expression, so a lot of things are possible, I suppose.

That's easy! I am still reading the dang Misplaced Pages rules on how to do it, but I am working on it and will get it done. If Tom does one too that's great, but I will for sure. :)! I don't wish WLU and Dreamboy any harm, but you two are acting like police men on the DID page. Give us a chance to actually work on the page BEFORE judging us. I tiptoed in just to see what I would be met with and the talk page there sure explains that. You both have been rude and bullying to me, Tom and others who would like to edit that page. Misplaced Pages rules say to trust the new comers. Try it! You might actually be pleased with the outcome. It will be a far better article than it is now and please quit saying we don't follow the rules! You have not given us a chance to do much of anything! Tom has made a great article on the PTSD page, so you know he knows how. I do respect him and Misplaced Pages and will follow rules. ~ty (talk) 03:56, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I have not yet initiated any disciplinary response to your behavior. I have a life outside of WP, actually, and I've been tending to it. When it's time to notify you, I will, as I've already said. I do my very best to play fair. I'm quite certain I have done no email (or any other kind of) stealth canvasing. Don't approve, and don't need to do it. "Transparency" - remember? No meatpuppeting being initiated by me either. Don't approve, and don't need to do it.

But we don't want to miss the larger idea here - it's ancient and basic: truth is not about voting, but about argumentation (usually involving inductive logic, I might add). Consensus is somewhat different, however, for the obvious reason that it is not about the interaction of premises and logic but about the interaction of people who share some common interest. Logic is not likely to be compromised by the entrance into a discussion of new people of good faith and intelligence. Consensus, obviously, could well be.

However, it's rather obvious to me that neither you nor Dreamboy respect logic, and you certainly don't understand (or is the problem respect?) consensus. You therefore are not playing fair. That's bad behavior, and for bad behavior there will be consequences, as long as I'm here.Tom Cloyd (talk) 03:38, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. Quality of argument and sources is what matters for consensus, and both point to iatrogenesis being included at least as a minority opinion. You have yet to point to any policies that permit you to simply wave away undeniably reliable sources, you have merely asserted that they are useless. Your opinion and assertion is not sufficient - point to a policy, or seek outside input on the WP:RSN, WP:FTN or some other venue that substantiates these sources being "useless" and I will listen to the broader outside consensus. I completely disagree with you handwaving away sources you personally disagree with. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

disruptive editing

So much for "assume good faith". Personally, I have had it with WLU and his throughly disruptive ways. I have been following this discussion for a while. I too am a physican editor who has been the recipient of WLU's disruptive editing. See Abram Hoffer, where the same thing that is going on here went on, substitution of questionable sources for good ones, and so forth. Clearly, this editor is quite skilled in tying things in knots and at wikilawyering. Perhaps he hopes to make editing so difficult for expert editors that we leave. Enough is enough. Much more signifcant admins than him have been tossed off of here.

BTW, your interpretation is the correct one and I join in your concensus. Drjem3 (talk) 18:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

First, thanks for showing up. These tussles are always difficult, simply because they are raw political process. The outcome does matter. Misplaced Pages is not trivial.

It's very good to have another professional in a related field on board - that's an understatement! This is an important article, more than most people realize. As E.F. Howell (2005) points out, dissociation is far more important to an understanding of mind and personality, not to mention basic brain function, than has been realized. This idea is ascendant, and the locus of much of the discussion does appear to be DID - witness Dell and O'Neil's wonderful Dissociation and the Dissociative Disorders. Makes me glad to get up in the morning! A wonderful time to be in the profession.

I believe I see a way out of this fracas, and it involves application of some common conflict resolution tactics. I'm still thinking about it, but am about ready to post.

Again, thanks for your involvement. I do think it will help things.

Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:02, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not trivial, and adherence to the policies and guidelines are what is responsible for maintaining a high level of content. If you want to address the conflict on the page, options include dispute resolution and justifying edits via reference to policies, guidelines and reliable sources.

What do you think about Drjem3's revert to the page here, returning The Skeptic's Dictionary as a source instead of two university textbooks, removing a link to a google books preview, claiming the DSM and Merck website cite something they do not, the list of comorbidities being cited to a primary source instead of secondary, and the proponent's explanation of DID being underdiagnosed? You really think these changes improve the page? I don't. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 23:08, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Strong demands upon me from multiple directions force brevity (ouch!). I am purposefully avoiding many individual points of conflict at this time in order to come at this from a different angle, and work to achieve a constructive resolution of the conflict. You will, of course, be invited to join me, along with all other interested parties, in this effort.

I am, for now, avoiding all overt conflict. Just not interested. Therefore, I am, for now, taking no interest in the actual text in the article. Until we are able, as a group, to work together, the article simply won't move forward. I take that as obvious, and expect that you do too.

I am, for now, no longer pursuing resolution through involvement of higher authorities, other than those which I believe all parties can readily agree to listen to - i.e., no involvement with admin. boards. I don't think this is yet advised, and is likely not to be necessary. It would not, in any case, be a quick way out. I think we can do better, working together, right now.

I am a writer, and order my thoughts by writing. That takes time and effort. I am close to being finished. My product will only be a start, as what I am proposing is not something I myself can do. If it happens at all, we, the community of interested editors, will do it. I like that idea very much.

I really do not think you will have any significant difficulty with what I am going to propose, and the reason for this may surprise you: I am going to overtly agree with you on many, if not most, of your methodological proposals. Content flows from methodology, which is why method is of primary importance.

So, I counsel patience, and equanimity. I think calmer waters are ahead. If there are individuals who do not wish to sail into them, I will attempt to be persuasive. Best I can do!

I expect to be posting shortly on the DID Talk page.

Tom Cloyd (talk)

Once you agree to the sole general principles that matter (the policies and guidelines) everything else is specifics. If you agree on two main specifics - that iatrogenesis represents at least a significant minority point that deserves a mention in the lead and further discussion in the body, and that there are adequate sources to support a brief discussion of Sybil in the history section, I doubt we will have many further disagreements. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:57, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

"Agree" - I have never been at odds with them; I have simply failed to make that obvious. Will fix this.

"Specifics" - this has nothing to do with method. Content that belongs in the article will come from correct literature summary method. It that method supports your "specifics" (which it will not - I do know this literature), they're in. There, I suspect, we agree. Tom Cloyd (talk) 08:54, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Content comes from what specifics we can verify in reliable sources. And even a Cochrane reviewer won't know all the literature in an area, at best a small sliver. Nobody's knowledge of the literature in abstract is sufficient to edit the page - your knowledge of the literature may help you locate and interpret sources, but you still need to cite them, in sources that are at least in principle verifiable by other editors, including page numbers for books, for any bit of text to remain. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:27, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, you stated on the DID talk page that you're raising this issue for resolution somewhere - . Please notify me which venue you have chosen (and be aware of WP:BOOMERANG - be very clear what policies and guidelines you are citing, and most venues require diffs as evidence rather than just prose summaries. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:52, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Experts

You may be interested in the user essay WP:EXPERT. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 11:52, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we all know this. We all have been editing here about as long as you have. Also see WP:expert retention. The problem is that you cite stuff that is rather controversial while completely denying the validity of main-stream material presented to you by experts execising their proper wikifunction of knowing what the cites are. And then wikilawyer when called on it.

E.g., on Abram Hoffer you doggedly claimed that "most physicians" (not any that I know of, btw) discredit "megavitamin therapy", citing rather biased "popular" sources, but no published literature. OR, if I ever saw it. This was rather than simply agreeing that the matter is "controversial".

In fact, the particular example developed by Dr Hoffer (high-dose time-release niacin), is part of the main-stream treatment for dyslipidemia. Until very recently, this is in essentially the same form he worked out over five-decades ago. I gave the cites ad nauseum, only to see you repeatedly deny their validity and revert. Eventually, you retreated a little. I went away and you restored the "most physicians" nonsense. Hell, this is text-book material, taught to every medical student. Hilarious, in retrospect. Stuff like this is why they pay us the big bucks...

Point is not the disagreement (I change my own views regularly on many things and am always willing to be persuaded of any old thing), but your continued refusal to allow alternative points of view that even slightly called into question yours. Drjem3 (talk) 19:21, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

It's not the years, it's the mileage. I've got nearly 130 edits for every one edit of yours.

Heh, amusingly the article on expert retention led me to WP:IAC. Very nice.

What stuff have I cited that's controversial? What major medical bodies embrace megavitamin therapy, specifically the use of high-dose vitamins as a general treatment, not the single example of high dose naicin used to treat dyslipedemia? Actual medicine notes that high-dose niacin does appear to improve lipid levels - with side effects of vasodilation and anosmia. They don't then go on to say that because naicin has this one indication, all vitamins in huge doses must of necessity be also good. The fact that there is one rarely used intervention with high dose vitamins does not automatically justify using high dose vitamins as a general tonic or specific treatment. And even if there are other uses for high-dose vitamins as a treatment, that means a single vitamin has a single high-dose use, not that they all can cure cancer.

Can you provide any sources that say megavitamin therapy works, works well and works often? Any that aren't published in the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine? WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:42, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

"...you cite stuff that is rather controversial while completely denying the validity of main-stream material presented to you by experts exercising their proper wikifunction of knowing what the cites are. And then wikilawyer when called on it."

Exactly. And if not always true, it's true far, far too often.Tom Cloyd (talk) 02:15, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Second account?

Do you have a second accout ? If those edits are indeed you, I suggest you tag both your acounts with {{User Alternate Acct Name}} and redirect the user and talk pages of TomCloyd (talk · contribs) to Tomcloyd (talk · contribs) per WP:SOCK#NOTIFY. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:11, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

No. Why would I? I can't make sense of this. At one point, some time ago, I tried something (cannot recall what) to change my username so that it would be TomCloyd. The attempt appeared, at the time, not to work, so I never thought about it again. Perhaps this is an artifact of that episode. I have no idea. There appears to be a TomCloyd account, but no user page has been created, and the edits listed are obviously mine, which makes no sense to me.

It looks like your suggestion about the redirect is a good way to effective close this odd one, which MUST be simply artifactual of my earlier attempt. I'm surprised to see it crop up.Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:49, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Some people create second accounts by accident or when they forget the user name or password of their first account. User pages are only created when somebody actually edits them. If you are pretty sure that those two edits made by TomCloyd (talk · contribs) are yours, then you might as well tag and redirect; another option would be changing your user name. I'm no expert, but I think it might result in merging both accounts to a single set of contributions and you'd get to have a "C" rather than a "c".

The reason for a redirect-and-tag is simple transparency. Sockpuppeting is normally looked down on by the community, but being transparent about it means it's no longer an issue. If you're pretty sure that you made those edits, it's probably a good idea to redirect and tag, then you never have to worry about it again. I'd also have no problem doing it for you if you'd like, it's quite simple and I've done it several times for other accounts. More complicated is WP:CHU, and has the benefit of giving you your preferred account name. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 14:36, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation?

I thought I'd get your input on this. I am surprised the ISSTD doesn't have an article on wikipedia, considering the FMSF does and how often the ISSTD is mentioned (and referenced) in the dissociative disorder-related articles. Decent idea, or no? I'm really new to wikipedia but it seems like the ISSTD is easily notable enough for its own wikipedia entry. Forgotten Faces (talk) 01:07, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

OMG, as they say! I cannot find it either. This is truly surprising. I believe you've made a major discovery. This is exciting, because it's not often that one finds a major omission like this on WP. Congratulations to you for your investigative work!

So, I propose that we pull together some decent references - we need more than links to the site itself. We can get at least enough to get a decent wikipedia:stub article going. We could collect them on your talk page, if you like, then when we have enough to go forward, begin. (I happen to much enjoy collaborative work, which is why I'm proposing this.) However, if you'd like to just start and have me contribute as I find decent sources, that's fine too.

As far as I'm concerned, to you goes the honor of launching the article. I certainly do make myself available as a resource on all matters, to the extent that I may be helpful.

This is an extremely important organization for those interested in dissociation and dissociative disorders. It fully deserved a decent article. Let's make it happen! I have some time this evening, though not a lot, and can continue through the weekend.

This is exciting. Thank you for including in your initial thinking about this. I totally support your idea!

Tom Cloyd (talk) 02:02, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Tom. I like the idea of gathering references/ideas on my talk page and then going forward with the launching of it. I really have no idea what I am doing but I'm sure I'll catch on fast with a little help... so yeah, references first sound good. Now you have me excited, haha. I have only my google-fu to guide me, more resources would definitely be good. Thanks again. Forgotten Faces (talk) 02:13, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I see a lot of playing in the sandbox in my near future. Forgotten Faces (talk) 02:14, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

That's precisely what sandboxes are for. Just be sure to keep the cats out of it! Will join you there shortly, with some references (I hope). (I'm assuming this is OK with you; you didn't explicitly say.) BTW, the "stub" link has some good ideas about how to get an article started.Tom Cloyd (talk) 02:18, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh yes of course, definitely need your help. I was just starting to read that article, in fact, but I do have to stop for the night rather soon. But by all means please get references and post them over there. :) Thanks! Forgotten Faces (talk) 02:23, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

For a page to avoid deletion they have to pass the standards at WP:N. That means reliable, independent sources must discuss the ISSTD at length. You could try google books and google news, they are normally good sources. If the ISSTD ever operated under a previous name, that can not only be used as a fact in the page (with a inline citation) but it would also help in locating other sources to indicate notability. Also, it's a bit of a long shot, but google scholar sometimes will have articles that discuss actual agencies such as historical overviews of an idea or field. I've located some unarguably reliable sources:

• Blaney & Millon, 2008, Oxford Textbook of Psychopathology page 456, ISBN 0195374215,
• Reyes, Elhai & Ford, 2008, The Encyclopedia of Psychological Trauma, page 364, ISBN 0470386150; this book indicates it was formerly known as the International Society for the Study of Dissociation which gives a second search term that could be tried.
• Chu, 2011, Rebuilding Shattered Lives, page 14, ISBN 0470768746. Try also searching inside for ISSTD
• Dell & O'Neil, 2009, Dissociation and the dissociative disorders: DSM-V and beyond, page xiii, ISBN 0415957850 - this appears to be a full list of the three names (and date ranges) of the organization over the past couple decades.

You can't use the ISSTD's own works or website to pass WP:N, but once you've established notability through other sources, the website can be used to expand, judiciously, with attribution (i.e. "The ISSTD says..." WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 14:16, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I can help with the technical side of editing (I don't know about the organization myself yet). You can start with a Userspace draft if you want to to have time to get the article together before it being tagged by other editors. —danhash (talk) 15:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Oops, I see you already did. —danhash (talk) 15:35, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I moved the sources above over to the sandbox and put them into citation templates if anyone wants to summarize and integrate them. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I've hit my limit

I've pretty much hit my limit for responding to your talk page postings. I don't care what you think of my character, what apparent diagnosis you believe I have, or really, what your interpretation of the policies and guidelines are. If you edit the main page and I disagree, I will indicate why on the talk page with specifics. Debating generalities is obviously pointless. Thanks, WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:07, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

WLU, you don't just discuss it on the talk page, you revert the edits and post your reason why. No one else there is allowed to to this because you freak out and it becomes a revert war.~ty (talk) 19:56, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Science Rocks

	Science Award
	Great! you have put science in your article! I LOVE SCIENCE! tylas (talk) 21:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Calvary Chapel

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PTSD in postpartum women

Have you seen this new article? Seems like it could use some attention from a professional. —danhash (talk) 19:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the alert. Wasn't aware of it. Tom Cloyd (talk) 22:00, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The lead and the symptoms section

Per Misplaced Pages:MOS#Attribution, I've reverted your change to the lead again. The quote needs to be attributed. In addition, per Misplaced Pages:LEAD#Length, the lead is not unduly long.

I'm simply curious about your ongoing addition to the signs and symptoms section. Here is the text:

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders criteria for DID include the presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states, at least two of which take control of the individual's behavior on a recurrent basis, accompanied by inability to recall personal information beyond what is expected through normal forgetfulness. The diagnosis excludes symptoms caused by alcohol, drugs, medications or other medical conditions such as complex partial seizures and normal fantasy play in children.

Both citations to are to the DSM. The attribution for the text isn't in the prose wikilink, it's in the second citation in the paragraph which verifies the entire thing. I'm simply not sure what the first citation is supposed to verify - that the DSM exist? It's not linked to the DSM saying anythying - it's just there.

The latter point isn't worth edit warring over and I won't revert. The former is wrong. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate your taking the time to engage in civil discussion and explanation. That approach works, for me.

Specific points:

• "the former":Misplaced Pages:MOS#Attribution refers to "...a quote of a full sentence or more...". The quote in the lede has never been that (note the elipsis in the middle of the sentence). Part of the problem has been that the 'beginning also needed an elipsis, to make clear at the outset that this is a sentence fragment. I noted this some time ago, became distracted, and did not fix it. I just fixed this problem. I think at this point we're OK on this point.
• "the latter": Taking a second look at this paragraph, I think I see your point. There's also the appearance of a needless double citation, where once should be enough. I can agree that a parsimonious solution is to keep the footnote at the end of the paragraph; I will make it so.

My concern had been that the reference to the DSM have a link to a full citation of the source, so there might be absolutely no confusion as to the reference. A bit compulsive of me, quite possibly. So, on this point, too, I think we have reached agreement.

Tom Cloyd (talk) 20:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

There are two ellipses in the quotation and one missing from the end. Noting what they are replacing in the original source, do you still think attribution doesn't apply? And consider the alternative, because I will put in the full sentence just to ensure there is attribution, and it will have to look something like this:

Dissociative identity disorder (DID, also known as multiple personality disorder in the ICD-10) is a psychiatric diagnosis. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) states:

Or we can solicit explicit feedback on the talk page from other involved editors, or solicit feedback in the form of a request for comment. My preference is to simply stick with the current attribution. Noting that it is the DSM making this statement is important. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:55, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the exact text, I think the ellipsis needs to be added at the end, just to be technically correct. What's critical is the statement itself - its content. The average reader will get correct information from that. Some will wonder about the source, and the footnote explicitly resolves that question. That's what footnotes are for. It may be assumed that if it's in the lede (and the editors are to be trusted), it's a fundamentally correct AND important statement. Therefore, I don't think announcing the source is particularly needed, or even valuable, compared to keeping the lede terse and direct.

I also don't think the full quote is needed; it doesn't add anything essential. I see no value at all in laboring over this by referring the question to the other editors. And God forbid that we should issue an RFC. This is really a little question. We have big questions to take up. Let's put our energies there, for the sake of advancing the article.

The lede won't always be as lean as it is now. When other sections are more complete and better sourced, the lede needs to summarize them as well - in my mind I'm making room in the lede for those summary statements.

In any case, we cannot do anything until the block is lifted, in 3 days.Tom Cloyd (talk) 06:38, 28 January 2012 (UTC)