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Revision as of 20:34, 28 January 2012 editJohn Cline (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors64,922 edits →Where is the opposition: re← Previous edit Revision as of 20:48, 28 January 2012 edit undoDronkle (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers12,793 edits →Question for ArbCom: Musings relating to Bali's postNext edit →
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:::::*We're always aware of everything, and in control of it, as well. ]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup><span class="frac">/</span><sub>]</sub>, <sup>(secret)</sup> member of the ] ], 16:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC) On a more serious note, I'd like to know as well. I was not involved in this until the ANI (and still really am not): it kind of reminds me of high school or national politics (whichever you prefer), ''with documentation!'' :::::*We're always aware of everything, and in control of it, as well. ]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup><span class="frac">/</span><sub>]</sub>, <sup>(secret)</sup> member of the ] ], 16:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC) On a more serious note, I'd like to know as well. I was not involved in this until the ANI (and still really am not): it kind of reminds me of high school or national politics (whichever you prefer), ''with documentation!''
: I've been looking into this off and on since late December. I emailed Arbcom a month ago with a series of questions about what they knew about "Fae's" past accounts (the linkage between this account and "Ash" was made clear when Fae publicly announced his identity ), his editing activity on this website, and what they think that might say about his suitability for positions of power. I have not received a response and at this point don't expect one. Though I don't intend to participate in this RFC, the thing that interests me is the level of responsibility he's been given in representing Wikimedia to the government and public in the UK, weighed against his editing behavior over the years, particularly the misuse of sources and a casual attitude towards protecting the privacy and reputation of article subjects. There are related concerns on how very small, self-selected groups of individual wield large amounts of power on wikimedia websites, rather than "the community" that is so often spoken of in public forums.] (]) 17:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC) : I've been looking into this off and on since late December. I emailed Arbcom a month ago with a series of questions about what they knew about "Fae's" past accounts (the linkage between this account and "Ash" was made clear when Fae publicly announced his identity ), his editing activity on this website, and what they think that might say about his suitability for positions of power. I have not received a response and at this point don't expect one. Though I don't intend to participate in this RFC, the thing that interests me is the level of responsibility he's been given in representing Wikimedia to the government and public in the UK, weighed against his editing behavior over the years, particularly the misuse of sources and a casual attitude towards protecting the privacy and reputation of article subjects. There are related concerns on how very small, self-selected groups of individual wield large amounts of power on wikimedia websites, rather than "the community" that is so often spoken of in public forums.] (]) 17:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
::What I am bemused by is that Fae and his advisors persist in fighting a case where damage to Wikimedia will be the inevitable result. A journalist whose main job is as Middle East Correspondent for a brand that typically picks up a Pulitzer Prize about once a decade has announced that he is writing an article about various goings on to do with Wikimedia and its projects with the antics of Fae being a key element of what he is going to submit. The prudent step to take is that Fae resigns from his various positions and then Dan Murphy's article immediately becomes a lot less interesting to potential publishers. Does he show any sign of doing so? No.
::Similarly, my letter to the Joint Committee on Privacy and Injunctions will largely be neutralised if Fae resigns. I have pointed out that, while he denied that there were BLP and privacy issues on Misplaced Pages when testifying to the committee, he himself has a continuing history with his past and current accounts here and on Commons of harming other people's privacy. If he were to resign his various Wikimedia/Wikipedia positions, then WMUK will be in a position to disassociate themselves from his evidence and to write to the Committee giving a franker description of the privacy and BLP issues on Misplaced Pages.
::Again, I have mentioned both on the WMUK mailing list and to Jon Davies face to face that there is a real threat to the charity's reputation if someone were to right to '']'' about some of the earlier accounts' contributions and, indeed, some of Fae's contributions on Commons while he has been a trustee of WMUK. Greg Kohs online articles aren't taken seriously by anyone. Coverage in ''PE'' would be hugely more damaging. That potential danger is removed the moment that Fae stops holding a position with them.
::Rather than think of what is best for Wikimedia and its projects, Fae and his associates are taking a course that leaves WM at risk. Yes, of course, there have been some unpleasant homophobic posts on WR as well as distinctly nasty stuff appearing here on WP and on Commons. That does not mean that all, or indeed most, people who criticise Fae are homophobes. And the "don't ask, don't tell" approach to questions about whether he is indeed Ash, including deletions and indeed revdels both on Commons and here, is quite ridiculous. WP:CLEANSTART has explicit limitations and Fae's distortion of the policy is just another example of his unfitness for any position of authority connected with Misplaced Pages.--] (]) 20:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


== Misplaced Pages Review == == Misplaced Pages Review ==

Revision as of 20:48, 28 January 2012

Is this page properly certified?

The link to the previous RfC is a bit weird. Can't the editors sign their name to this one, if they think another RfC on the same (albeit renamed) user is needed? ASCIIn2Bme (talk)

This isn't "another RfC", this is the aborted RfC re-opened. It has already been certified. I would have preferred to simply re-list the original, but the change of name and the time span involved would have made that even more confusing, I think. I should have signed it, though, and I have done so now. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I stand corrected. I've read the (interesting) AN discussion on the topic of on-hold RfCs. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 00:47, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Even if it is a re-opening, we're going to need some signatures in that space for the formal assignment of responsibility for the process. MBisanz 18:58, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Who is "we" and why can't "we" follow the link to the original? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:24, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
The community and because things break over time as pages get shifted around which makes it annoying to try and go back and document stuff in the future. MBisanz 21:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I do not understand what the issue is. Do you want me to copy the original section over to the new section? If you have a suggestion about how I can do this in a less confusing way, I welcome it. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:14, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Copying probably is fine; it makes things clearer to simpletons like me. But like I say below, people (specifically the person who is the subject of the RFC), will probably complain that since an original certifier was banned, you need a new second certifier as the banned user can't consent to re-opening it. MBisanz 21:21, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Also, because clicking around now I see one of the original certifiers is now banned, which I don't care about because I don't quite know what is going on here, but sounds fishy to me because obviously the banned user isn't around to say he also agrees with its reopening. MBisanz 21:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
That previous RFC was almost two years ago. Do we even have clear evidence that this user is the same person as that user?   Will Beback  talk  21:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
MBisanz, I am reopening a dormant RFC/U. You may find it helpful to read this recent AN discussion on that specific topic. Reading over your comments here, it seems clear that you do not like it, but I am not sure what your objections are. I started the original RFC/U and I am re-opening it. I assume that anyone would be free to do so if they saw the need. The fact that the person who certified the original RFC/U is no longer editing here is not relevant. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
However, the point of RFC is to permit comment and dialogue with the user violating norms so that they can change their behavior. The reason two certifiers are required is, presumably, to ensure there is an actual violation of norms; not simply a personal gripe and show the accused user that multiple individuals see a problem and desire to help resolve it. Without Jack around to confirm there is still an issue with Fæ's behavior and to discuss that issue with Fæ, a key part of the dispute resolution process is lost. MBisanz 21:29, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Your argument might have more weight if the original RFC/U had concluded. It did not. It was closed prematurely because User:Ash claimed to leave Misplaced Pages, but actually had already begun editing as User:Fæ. The original request for comment was certified. I have provided additional, current evidence that a problem remains, so that this cannot simply be sloughed off as "stale". I suggest you start a discussion on WP:AN or the WT:RFC/U if you have concerns about the process itself so that a wider range of opinions can be heard. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Nah, not worth the effort; I just think it's a violation of process how you're doing it. And, I'm now involved anyway. MBisanz 21:45, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
It may be a violation of what you assume the spirit of the RFC/U process is, but I have been unable to establish what the actual process is for cases such as this. I had hoped for a wider discussion in the AN thread I started about a similar situation, but it didn't generate much interest. I'm sure this won't be the only such case like this, so if you have thoughts on how best to do this, please consider starting a discussion somewhere (either now or later). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:53, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
My thought in the past and now is that if a discussion has been delisted/closed/suspended and a user returns, whomever certified the first dispute creates a new RFC_2 and re-files, with re-certification and re-endorsement of viewpoints. It ensures finality to the process that once an RFC is delisted, it's gone unless a new one is created. MBisanz 21:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I agree. This needs to be treated as a fresh RFC, with fresh certifications. The idea that ancient RFCs can be restarted at any time is unsupported by past practice.   Will Beback  talk  00:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I've never interacted with Fae directly so I don't think I can certify, but I can vouch for the seriousness of the conditions on which Ash left the other year. ThemFromSpace 20:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Fae=Ash?

I can't find any definitive link connecting the two accounts. If the user has self-identified or if there's been a CU then that would be adequate. Whatever the evidence, it needs to be specified for this RFC to continue.   Will Beback  talk  22:57, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I have not time to search for the link but as I remember it was declared by Fae after comments on wiki review and here. Youreallycan 23:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Someone needs to track down that edit and post the link.   Will Beback  talk  23:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
You may wish to take a look at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive729#User:Fæ = User:Ash (and was previously User:Ashleyvh and User:Teahot). I suggest you contact ArbCom about any questions regarding Fæ's self-identifications on-wiki. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:26, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I may be missing something, but I don't see any evidence on the linked thread that the two users are the same. user:Bali ultimate says, "Well, now I know who the previous account was. It was User:Ash who departed Misplaced Pages in April 2010 during an RFC " But he never says how he learned this. If an ArbCom member would like to make a statement here or elsewhere that might clarify things. But either way there needs to be clear evidence that the two accounts are the same person for this RFC to proceed.   Will Beback  talk  23:48, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
You are missing something. Again, I suggest that you contact ArbCom about this matter. If they wish to make a statement or shut down this RFC/U, I'm sure they will do so. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
That's your responsibility as you're the one making the assertion. Evidence that the two accounts are the same person needs to be added before the deadline.   Will Beback  talk  00:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Fae is Ash, denying that is ridiculous, he doesn't even deny it himself. Youreallycan 00:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
If that's the case then evidence should be easy to find.   Will Beback  talk  00:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
What deadline would that be, Will? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
The 48 hour deadline.   Will Beback  talk  00:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes, there is no deadline to the reopening of a previously opened RFC user - but - - or however - this is all dramah without benefit and I don't support the reopening. User Fae has moved on in the spirit of fresh beginnings and is editing in a totally beneficial manner - so - lets forget this historic rfc user and go do something worthwhile, yes. Youreallycan 00:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
It's only a re-opened RFC if it's the same person. If they are different people then it's without any basis.   Will Beback  talk  00:32, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
The major problem with linking the accounts is that the user pages of User:Ash have been deleted (both here and on commons). The fact that Ash's previous account was AshleyVH and that Fae is Ashley Van Haften is significant. Denying the elephant in the room is disingenuous to the process (and people have been banned for much less evidence than what has been presented linking the two accounts. Ya ya, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, {{spa}}, etc. Throw all the rules, guidelines and policies you want at me but it still doesn't change the facts that there are serious concerns about a user who left under a cloud and came back and gained admin status. 65.122.75.14 (talk) 14:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
So Fae is Ash, Ash is AVH and AVH sat on the WP UK board of trustees. Did Fae get special treatment by Arbcom regarding his past accounts because of his position at WP? if this is the case then we have a pretty serious issue on our hands. There is an article about AVH on examiner.com that gives a detailed back story. I would really like to know why, from Arbcom's POV, they felt it was appropriate to allow an RFA while being secretive about past accounts. Nformation 18:28, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Harrassment by Delicious Carbuncle

This request is simply an extension of harrassment by some other vile characters on Wikipediareview. Fae has undergone some unadulterated harrasment by various users on WR, and a lot of it is of the homophobic variety. DC, IMO, is very close to going over this line of harrassment, if they haven't already.

Editors should know that DC posted Fae's home address and phone number on WR, on a thread which was discussing Fae in a manner which can only be construed by any reasonable person as harrassment, so their claim here that they are only interested in Fae's Misplaced Pages activities is absolute and clear BS. (Whilst the posts in question by DC on WR have conveniently been deleted, this does not mean that a webcitation copy wasn't conversely conveniently made before these posts were deleted by WR, so if DC is going to deny ever having done this, they might want to think very carefully before responding to this).

In relation to:

In a piece of sourcing remarkably similar to those in the original RFC/U, Fæ sourced the statement "The beach is considered friendly for naturists and gay tourists" in Voidokilia beach to a guide in the back of a gay tourist advertising magazine. The complete text of that section is "Situated after Pylos and a a gulf with a big lagoon of murky water and is suitable for nudists" (in both English and Greek)

His sourcing in this instance is pretty much OK, it is in a section of the magazine which is giving details of gay-friendly resorts, hotels, and beaches in Greece. There are obviously doubts as to whether this is legitimate or part of homophobic harrassment directed towards Fae. It is obvious it is, because they made a point of including a photo which Fae had taken at this beach in their statement; obviously hoping to play in homophobic feelings which some editors may hold. It is absolutely atrocious and disgusting behaviour to be engaging in.

As to anything on Commons, DC should not be importing disputes from Commons to enwp. If there are issues on Commons, Commons is the correct place to raise them; rather than using it as cannon fodder on enwp. Y u no be Russavia 23:36, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know who's "in the right" on this ongoing debate - maybe all, maybe none, or a bit of both. But I don't see how a 2-year-old comment by a since-banned user has anything to do with a current RFC. I have raised this question at WP:ANI. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Russavia, please strike your comments which suggest that this is "homophobic harassment" I regard to the posting of Fæ's home address on Misplaced Pages Review, I suggest that you post the link so that others may see it in context. Otherwise, please strike that portion also, as it is otherwise an unsourced accusatiion. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:08, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Suggesting that someone link to a website engaging in outing is really inappropriate.   Will Beback  talk  00:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
It is somewhat disingenuous for you to suggest that there is any outing going on. Fæ makes no secret of his identity. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't know anything about him. If he says that he's Ash and if he posts his home address publicly then that's fine. If he does not post his home address then linking to it would count as outing, regardless of the Fae/Ash issue.   Will Beback  talk  00:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Thank you Will. DC must be a few sausages short of a BBQ if he thinks I would link to off-wiki harrassment by himself and fellow WR users. The fact that he confirms that he did indeed do this is enough, and is enough to demonstrate what DC is doing here. It is below the pale of common decency to post someones home address and phone number on a public forum on a thread which is being use to engage in homophobic and harrassing commentary by numerous people. And to come back here to this project and claim that one is only interested in another editors Misplaced Pages activities is absolutely dishonest and outrageous. Y u no be Russavia 00:26, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Russavia, I would be only too happy to have a frank and open discussion of my actions here to set the record straight, but I am unable to do that with violating WP:OUTING. I have encouraged Fæ to follow some form of dispute resolution so that I may defend myself from these types of unsubstantiated slurs, but he has not done so, preferring instead to simply claim "harassment" in order to discredit anything I may have to say about his actions. I regret that many of the examples I have used involve gay topic areas, but those are the areas in which I have found them. I find your suggestions that I am homophobic, or that this is in any way motivated by homophobia, to be very insulting. Please strike your comments and refrain from future outbursts. Thank you. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
If you are unable or unwilling to conduct a standard SPI, and if you have evidence that the two editors are the same but don't want to post it openly, maybe you should go offline with your most trusted admin and clue him in as to what the story is. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
There is no need for me to do that. Contact ArbCom if you have concerns about the identity of the named users. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:08, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
The deadline is 21:52, 27 January 2012. Please make sure an ArbCom member or CU has posted their evidence before then.   Will Beback  talk  01:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I have no way to ensure that they do that and it isn't for me to suggest it. If you have concerns about the connection between the two accounts, contact ArbCom. Setting arbitrary deadlines with the implied threat that you will close this RFC/U does not seem like a wise idea under the circumstances. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
If there is no clear evidence that Fae and Ash are the same person by the deadline then I will delete the RFC, since it is based on that premise. You can't just assert that two users are the same and then attack them on that basis. There has to be some proof. If you're unable to provide any you'd still be welcome to start an RFC on FAE alone, on the basis of his editing and without reference to Ash. However, based on many assertions here I'd assume that it would be possible to show that Fae and Ash are the same person. Have you contacted the ArbCom to ask them to make a declaration?   Will Beback  talk  06:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I have not contacted ArbCom about this, although I know they were contacted when the RFC/U was filed. I thought I had already made it clear that I was not going to contact ArbCom and that if you had concerns about this, you should contact them. I do not feel that it is incumbent on me to offer proof here for what is already well-known to them. This is not a sockpuppetry investigation, it is a request for comment on a user. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Russavia, I trust you remember me from our days on EEML. I'm floating around this one in my usual manner, no opinion, not taking sides, just doing what I can to keep order. While I don't have the authority of a Arbcom clerk in this discussion, I hope I have enough residual respect from you that you might consider my request that you strike uncivil comments and stay focused on the issues. DC, I don't think I've dealt with you much in the past, but the same request applies (as of course it does to everyone). Regards, Manning (talk) 00:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Manning, but I am not retracting anything I have stated, because it is grounded in seeing what has been happening, and is occurring. DC takes issue with me calling this "homophobic harrassment"; he can take issue all he likes, but DC is the one who has stated:

Fæ added an image to the article, with the caption "Naturism on the south end of the beach". It should be noted that this image File:Voidokilia naturists.jpg is Fæ's own work and upload.

After an irrelevant comment about Commons, DC then goes on to say:

None of these things are the types of actions that we should expect from admins or experienced editors.

So according to DC, posting photos of this beach on the article relating to this beach, is not what the community expects? Excuse me whilst I choke, but that comes across to me as most homophobic in nature, and it is disappoints me that DC has made the posting of these photos to the article an issue; but am somewhat glad. DC has made this photos an issue, not because they are an issue, but because pointing to photos that may indicate that Fae is possibly queer is obviously going to appeal to the lowest common denominator amongst certain editors (and not to mention score him a few bonus points on WR); this is not only harrassment of Fae, but it is also giving any queer editor notice that if you improve specific articles with "queer" photos, you will not only be sidelined, but you will be harrassed in the process. Is this really the message we need to be sending to queer editors? The mere fact that DC has not supplied any reason for making the two photos an issue, other than complain that it is not homophobic harrassment, WP:SPADE is going to apply from where I sit, and I am telling you it will appear that way to most uninvolved queer editors too. Y u no be Russavia 02:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I did not point out Fæ's image of a naked man on a beach to suggest that he is gay, I pointed it out to illustrate his conflict of interest in labelling this beach as a nude beach using poor sourcing. I did not call them "queer photos" - those were Russavia's words, and words that I would not use. I did not make any suggestion or insinuation regarding gay editors and none should be read into this RFC/U which is about the edits made by a specific editor. This latest rant is way beyond the pale and Russavia should be blocked for it. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
A conflict of interest? What conflict of interest is there in Fae being at this beach, and taking photos of "naturism on the south end of the beach" and then uploading them and inserting them in the article? There is no conflict of interest. I really do think you are reaching here now. And you also say that this is poor sourcing? As Fae was obviously at this beach, and took a photo, we WP:AGF in that this is true and correct. You have not presented any evidence which indicates that this should not be the case. Additionally, he has not used poor sourcing; he has used a Greek-published queer tourist guide (Annual Gay Travel Guide to Greece) as a source on this beach; given the topic, the source is OK, unless you can present evidence that the source he has used is incorrect? If any admin wants to block me, then feel free, but before doing so, please consider that two other users have endorsed by view that this entire request is a continuation of harrassment of Fae by different characters. Y u no be Russavia 03:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Russavia, you appear to have misunderstood my comments about the image and sourcing. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 11:57, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Jack Merridew's certification

Resolved – - RFC has now been properly certified by other editors, hence this discussion is moot. Manning (talk) 01:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Discussion since rendered moot. Manning (talk) 01:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I propose that the certification of Jack Merridew be reviewed. Bugs has raised some valid questions, as has a few others above. In the interim, the certification should be left in place, but with a note indicating it is being reviewed. Manning (talk) 00:10, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposal: The certification of Jack Merridew be allowed to remain.


The use of Merridew's certification relies on the assumption that Fae=Ash. Until that evidence has been provided it cannot be used. Once that has been done then the issue of whether a two-year-old certification by a now-banned user is acceptable can progress.   Will Beback  talk  00:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

If you have doubts, Will Beback, why don't you ask him? --PumknPi (talk) 00:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps you could do that and post the response here?   Will Beback  talk  00:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Nobody Ent 00:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
If a user varnished to avoid a RFC user then returns almost immediately under a new identity then , yes, clearly the old RFC does still have action. Youreallycan 00:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Only if all of those things are true. The first thing we need to do is establish that these are the same person. I haven't seen anyone providing evidence to show that.   Will Beback  talk  00:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Using a 2-year old endorsement of issues which are significantly different to that raised here, is an absolutely atrocious idea given that this is entire request is an WR engineered exercise in harrassment. Y u no be Russavia 00:19, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I've removed the seperate "support/oppose" sections, since voting gives you weevils. I do however, believe that the previous certification should stand. As there is the appearance that avoiding RFS was at least part of the driver for the namechange, and as the behavior has continued (I'll provide evidence of that soon) closing this RfC would be inappropiate.
    Aaron Brenneman (talk) 00:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • support Nobody Ent 00:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose on principle. You can't use a 2-year-old comment in support of a current RFC. Keep the admin Manning's comment in place for the benefit of readers. DC tried to hide that fact by pushing it to the talk page. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment Aaron Brenneman and Nobody Ent have both certified the current RFC. Assuming they have actually been involved in trying to resolve the dispute then their signatures are sufficient and the banned user's signature is unnecessary.   Will Beback  talk  00:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Of note

WP:PA and other WP:DE complaints against the Fæ admin account: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive712#Admin conduct review requested. A WP:RFC/U was suggested by several participants in that discussion. Should they be notified of this one? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 08:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, provided the notification goes to the full gamut of commentators and cannot be seen as just picking out those who were hostile to Ash in the first place.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:52, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
What about the people that voted in the first RFA without knowing the full story? Should we notify them? Nformation 18:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
That would appear to be well within the limits of WP:CANVASS if and only if all those !voting there are notified (excepting only those who indicate that they wish no notifications, or are barred from being notified in some way due to topic bans etc.) in a scrupulously neutral manner that the discussion exists. Collect (talk) 18:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
How about "Hello. A request for comment is currently taking place at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Fæ. Because you voted in Fae's RFA, your input is welcome." Sound good? Nformation 19:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Given that this is a re-opening of a dormant RFC/U, I think it would be helpful to notify the original participants of that fact. I am wary of being accused of canvassing even for suggesting this, but it seems like an obvious thing to do in a case like this. I am hopeful that if nothing else comes out of this, we can at least learn from this request if similar cases arise in the future (and they will). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I think we have consensus for a broad and neutral notification to (1) participants in the RfA, (2) participants in the 1st RfC/U, and (3) participants in that ANI discussion. Given the large number of editors involved, I have filed a WP:BOTREQ for this. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Undeleted

If the certification is invalid, so be it. Lets discuss that.

If the evidence underpinning this RFC is invalid, so it it. Lets discuss that. If the evidence underpinning the RFC is so wrong and inappropriate that it should be deleted, so be it.

Arbcom did not endorse Fæ's RFA. I did. Feel free to discuss that.

Neither Arbcom nor myself had anything to do with Fæ's seat on the Wikimedia UK Board of Trustees; the Wikimedia UK members selected him, and that is not an appropriate topic for RFCs on English Misplaced Pages. John Vandenberg 08:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

John, you failed to answer when I emailed you, and the entire ArbCom also refused to answer, the simple question: Are user:Ash and user:Fæ the same person? If they are, how do you know that and when did you become aware of it?   Will Beback  talk  08:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Again, Will Beback, why don't you just ask him? Maybe something like this; "Hey Fæ, are you Ash?". -PumknPi (talk) 09:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
A) I'm not the one presenting evidence in this dispute. It's reasonable to ask someone making an assertion to prove it. That's standard across Misplaced Pages.
B) Fae deleted the question when someone else asked, so he's the wrong one to ask. The issue of whether editors need to deny things is unclear. Does an editor need to identify conflicts of interest and prior/alternate accounts when asked? Do they need to answer questions or make denials if accused?
C) I was instructed by DC to ask the ArbCom, which I did. I thought it'd be a simple matter to resolve with them but perhaps nothing is simple that involves a committee. They were also the wrong ones to ask.
D) There are still two remaining existential issues for this RFC/U: First, someone in authority needs to make the determination that"Ash=Fae" or clear evidence needs to be added. Second, the certifiers should establish their efforts to resolve the dispute.
E) I wish you all luck with this RFC/U and hope that it improves Misplaced Pages. However I regret having any involvement with it and I withdraw from further engagement. This may not be an example of the Misplaced Pages's best dispute resolution process.
F) I'd still like to get a better explanation from John V. of why we know that Ash = Fae, and who knew of the connection when. That's directly related to this RFC/U.   Will Beback  talk  09:53, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Will, im sorry you didnt get a response from Arbcom that helped you. You didnt email me directly; you did cc me to an email addressed to arbcom-l that was sent way less than a day ago. (I've spent most of today gardening..) This is a good reason to use onwiki communication before using onwiki tools. There is no consensus above that the RFC remains invalid after the new certifications. Unfortunately while Arbcom can be informed of prior accounts, and they may reject an editors clean start, Arbcom doesnt disclose the previous identity merely because there is an RFC in its early stages. To be honest, there hasnt been much discussion over the years about if and when Arbcom should disclose details of a clean start that the community has an interest in. Arbcom members look at accounts when they are informed of a clean start; it rejects some, records and advises others, but it neither monitors nor protects the users thereafter. Maybe it should fully investigate and monitor clean starts indefinitely. It would be great if ArbCom had the resources to do this; they don't. It is the users responsibility to conform to the requirements of a cleanstart. I know I looked at user:Fæ's edits and was convinced that they were a valid cleanstart. (I saw a few minor issues, and discussed them with Fæ) If there has been a significant problem with editing by user:Fæ (before RFA or since), this is the time to raise it. If Fæ's editing has been good, then the clean start worked and the RFC is without merit in that regards. However in addition to that aspect, there are views here regarding the clean start, Arbcom and RFA process, and we should consider them, perhaps as a separate RFC. John Vandenberg 09:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I envy you. I spent a couple of hours shoveling packed snow. Under the working assumption that Ash = Fae, the claim of clean start is questionable. Whether some people belong on the list of gay bathhouse regulars—a dispute involving User:Ash—is not very far afield BLP-wise from the dispute whether some model's adult video and "superhead" sexually-loaded nickname belong in her Misplaced Pages biography—a heated dispute involving User:Fæ, in which I have to say both sides behaved subpar if one peruses the talk page archives. So, clean start is very fuzzy concept under these circumstances. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 10:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Hi John. I did use onwiki communications. See #Fae=Ash? on this page, plus other threads. No one, including you in this thread, has provided evidence that Ash=Fae. Excuse me for asking for the basic evidence. RFC/Us have a strict deadline for compliance, which still has not been met. It seems only fair to hold this RFC/U to the usual standards. So, again, how do you know that Ash=Fae?   Will Beback  talk  10:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
I think that the strict 48hrs. requirement is only for people signing on the dotted line that they certify the RfC/U. Disputing other evidence is not a reason to delete the RfC, especially since it was already deleted and restored once, and your deletion may be considered WP:WHEELWAR. You are welcome to add your view to the RfC that the identity of the editor operating the two accounts has not been established beyond a reasonable doubt, or whatever standard you think should be used. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 10:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Wheelwar refers to undoing administrative actions. That would apply to the second or third action, not the first.
@ASCIIn2Bme: Do you have clear evidence that Ash=Fae? If so, could you post it please?   Will Beback  talk  10:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
This thread has already been posted multiple times. I believe there can be no doubts that Fae and Ash are the very same person. Salvio 11:07, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Salvio, Will has already stated that that ANI thread does not meet his lofty standards, though it is more than enough for the rest of us. Tarc (talk) 13:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Cleanstart is an opportunity, not a free pass. Per policy the onus is on the editor to make it work , not on the community to put on blinders. Nobody Ent 11:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It depends on the level of proof someone thinks necessary. I think WP:DUCK is often involved in deciding WP:SPI cases where the CheckUser info is unavailable. User:Fæ has explicitly denied being another named user, but insofar has refused to either confirm or deny that they were Ash, despite being asked on-wiki repeatedly. Is there any exculpatory/counterbalancing evidence that this is just a coincidence given the overlapping interests and the statement on "moving my spheres of interest to new topics to become a more generalist Wikipedian and avoiding the articles which were the sites of previous disputes without it being a complete self-ban"? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Revdeletion of Fæ's talk page

I was certain that the question Ash=Fæ was asked before this given that the ANI thread is months old. In an interesting use of WP:REVDEL, some questions on the same topic have been deleted using administrative tools. You can have a look at Special:Contributions/Bali ultimate on 28 December for a hint . ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


Sequence query

Will someone establish the sequence of events for creation/first edits from the Fae account, last edits of the Ash account, and date of start and ending of the RfC/U on Ash please? I fear my timeline that I found would not appear to conform with the wishes and claims of some concerning the sequence. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:47, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Question for ArbCom

On what date did the Committee first became aware of the existence of a prior account of Fæ? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

  • We're always aware of everything, and in control of it, as well. St John Chrysostom /my bias, member of the ROUGE CABAL, 16:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC) On a more serious note, I'd like to know as well. I was not involved in this until the ANI (and still really am not): it kind of reminds me of high school or national politics (whichever you prefer), with documentation!
I've been looking into this off and on since late December. I emailed Arbcom a month ago with a series of questions about what they knew about "Fae's" past accounts (the linkage between this account and "Ash" was made clear when Fae publicly announced his identity ), his editing activity on this website, and what they think that might say about his suitability for positions of power. I have not received a response and at this point don't expect one. Though I don't intend to participate in this RFC, the thing that interests me is the level of responsibility he's been given in representing Wikimedia to the government and public in the UK, weighed against his editing behavior over the years, particularly the misuse of sources and a casual attitude towards protecting the privacy and reputation of article subjects. There are related concerns on how very small, self-selected groups of individual wield large amounts of power on wikimedia websites, rather than "the community" that is so often spoken of in public forums.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
What I am bemused by is that Fae and his advisors persist in fighting a case where damage to Wikimedia will be the inevitable result. A journalist whose main job is as Middle East Correspondent for a brand that typically picks up a Pulitzer Prize about once a decade has announced that he is writing an article about various goings on to do with Wikimedia and its projects with the antics of Fae being a key element of what he is going to submit. The prudent step to take is that Fae resigns from his various positions and then Dan Murphy's article immediately becomes a lot less interesting to potential publishers. Does he show any sign of doing so? No.
Similarly, my letter to the Joint Committee on Privacy and Injunctions will largely be neutralised if Fae resigns. I have pointed out that, while he denied that there were BLP and privacy issues on Misplaced Pages when testifying to the committee, he himself has a continuing history with his past and current accounts here and on Commons of harming other people's privacy. If he were to resign his various Wikimedia/Wikipedia positions, then WMUK will be in a position to disassociate themselves from his evidence and to write to the Committee giving a franker description of the privacy and BLP issues on Misplaced Pages.
Again, I have mentioned both on the WMUK mailing list and to Jon Davies face to face that there is a real threat to the charity's reputation if someone were to right to Private Eye about some of the earlier accounts' contributions and, indeed, some of Fae's contributions on Commons while he has been a trustee of WMUK. Greg Kohs online articles aren't taken seriously by anyone. Coverage in PE would be hugely more damaging. That potential danger is removed the moment that Fae stops holding a position with them.
Rather than think of what is best for Wikimedia and its projects, Fae and his associates are taking a course that leaves WM at risk. Yes, of course, there have been some unpleasant homophobic posts on WR as well as distinctly nasty stuff appearing here on WP and on Commons. That does not mean that all, or indeed most, people who criticise Fae are homophobes. And the "don't ask, don't tell" approach to questions about whether he is indeed Ash, including deletions and indeed revdels both on Commons and here, is quite ridiculous. WP:CLEANSTART has explicit limitations and Fae's distortion of the policy is just another example of his unfitness for any position of authority connected with Misplaced Pages.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Review

In their endorsement of a position User:Shrigley wrote:

"DC's style is to say no more than would break the shield of plausible deniability. However, the general environment on WR is, whenever the subject arises, obviously homophobic. The LGBT wikiproject and LGBT pictures on commons are constant grievances; BLP crusades disproportionately serve to minimize the visibility of gay people and to aggrandize antigay politicians; and Fæ is not the first prominent LGBT editor that DC has targeted. This is shameless dog-whistle politics: where overt gay-bashing is not tolerated on Misplaced Pages, sustained harassment and outing campaigns against prominent gay editors are. Who knows? Maybe DC is just out to save the encyclopedia, and it just so happens that the worst editors are gay. We can't read minds. But the effect of his actions is that many gay editors, myself included, feel intimidated and unwelcome on Misplaced Pages. Shrigley (talk) 03:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

While this content probably belongs on the talk page instead of their endorsement, I would like to address it. Misplaced Pages Review is a forum with contributors from a wide array of Misplaced Pages editors and non-editors, including several current admins and the former legal counsel of the WMF. It is simply ridiculous to ascribe any single position to such a forum. Nonetheless, what Shrigley states is factually incorrect. LGBT images and the LGBT Wikiproject are not constant grievances - I cannot recall a thread devoted to either of these topics and I suspect even mentions of them are rare. Commons images containing explicit nudity and how those images are handled on Commons seem to be frequent topics of conversation, but I suggest that the vast majority of those images feature either masturbation by a single person or explicit "heterosexual" sex. Having said that, there are comments made on Misplaced Pages Review that I find to be offensive, but that is the nature of that community. Yes, there are comments there that many people would see as homophobic, but those are comments made by individual contributors and not reflective of the forum as a whole.

If Shrigley would like to provide a list of "prominent LGBT editors" that I have "targeted", perhaps I can address that concern also. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Anyone attacked by the children at Weekly Reader should wear it as a badge of honor. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I never said that the forum has a single position on any issue. However, certain opinions on WR - including antigay ones, in my experience - are expressed more often than not. I'm not going to point to any specific threads or posts: As has just been demonstrated following Russavia's statement, embarrassing WR posts have a tendency to disappear once they come under scrutiny from Wikipedians. My point is, WR is a partisan audience that can be expected to treat alleged LGBT evildoers more harshly than it treats other users. If you're not sensitive to this fact, then you're somewhat complicit in it. As for the targeted editors, I am really thinking of two examples: User:Benjiboi and User:Cirt. While the latter is not LGBT-identified to my knowledge, s/he did make extraordinary content contributions to the topic area, as did Benjiboi. I don't need to hear about how they were horrible people who did horrible things and were justly punished in righteous struggle. That may be. But for whatever they did, I do think there's some added satisfaction from their banishment, and from Fæ's expected banishment, in the silencing of LGBT voices and representation on Misplaced Pages. Shrigley (talk) 19:43, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Shrigley, first of all I sympathize with anyone who's suffered gay bashing. Secondly, I have to disagree with you that on WR -- "antigay are expressed more often than not" -- that's just not true. It's more often the case that someone gets snickered at for uploading a semi-nude image of themselves all hog-tied, not because they are supposedly gay. --PumknPi (talk) 19:49, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Shrigley, it is impossible for me to respond to such things as "I do think there's some added satisfaction from their banishment, and from Fæ's expected banishment, in the silencing of LGBT voices and representation on Misplaced Pages" with any kind of reasonable argument. That is not the case, but if that is what you think, I am unlikely to be able to change your mind. It is beyond farcical to say that my disputes with Cirt had anything to do with LGBT issues - it was very clearly about their anti-Scientology POV-pushing and violations f our policies with regard to biographies of living people. If they have a connection to the LGBT community, it is incidental and, as you point out, unclear. Benjiboi was a self-proclaimed "homo-propagandist", as it used to say in their now-deleted autobiography Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P., so it would be difficult to imagine a dispute with that editor that did not involve LGBT culture. Despite that, our disagreements were in regard to sourcing and violations of BLP in biographies of gay porn performers, not in relation to LGBT subjects in any general sense. Note that this is where I encountered User:Ash, who was deeply involved in supporting Benjiboi. Benjiboi has since been exposed as a very prolific sockpuppeteer and troll. I would not be at all surprised to learn that the offensive comments made on Fæ's userpage were made by Benjiboi to stir up exactly this kind of discussion. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Connecting User:Ash to User:Fæ by popular request

I had hoped it would not be necessary to do this on-wiki simply to confirm what has already been openly discussed in various on-wiki discussions, which is why I requested that concerned parties contact ArbCom about the connection between the two accounts. I can think of no way to establish that the two accounts are/were controlled by the same person without at the same time exposing the real-life identity of that person. Since others have already connected Fæ to their full name on this talk page, although I believe this is likely running afoul of the letter of the WP:OUTING policy, it will not be revealing any new private information, nor does it rely on revdeleted material.

In November of 2006, User:Ash (although it may have been as User:Ashleyvh, later renamed to User:Ash) uploaded an image of Charles Dunstone (log). The description was "Photograph of Charles Dunstone taken by Ashley Van Haeften in 2005". That image was deleted by Fæ on 11 Novemeber 2011 (log) with the edit summary "F1: Redundant copy of non-Commons file in the same file format". If one looks at File:Charles_Dunstone.jpg today, one finds that the image does indeed now reside on Commons and is attributed to Fæ as "own work". I think a reasonable person would find this more than enough to conclude that the two accounts are controlled by the same person. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

That is clarification . Youreallycan 20:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Where is the opposition

I have noticed that every summary has a list of signatories who support the summary while excluding even a template section where signatories may oppose. I feel this skews results insinuating participants either agree or remain silent. I am initially shocked at the precedent here which seems to endorse speculative outing of an editor. My76Strat (talk) 20:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Unless you are blind deaf and dumb - its common knowledge. Youreallycan 20:24, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
I presume this is your idea of helpful discourse. Perhaps I should apply the same reservation. My76Strat (talk) 20:28, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
RFCs have never had an oppose section. The idea is that an opposer to "I believe that X occurred..." will write their own view in the positive sense "I believe that Y occurred..." and others will endorse it and the positive view of "I believe that Y occurred..." will be shown to have more support then the other views. MBisanz 20:28, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
I have merely given my perspective as one who hasn't participated in this format and may never again. I certainly didn't garner a thing welcoming by the initial response. My76Strat (talk) 20:34, 28 January 2012 (UTC)