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Dispute resolution

I see that the {{POV}} tag has been removed by an experienced user, with the edit summary "nah," even though it is entirely obvious that the dispute has not been resolved from both the recent article history and this talk page. There are several editors on each side. Therefore, I intend to report this to the dispute resolution noticeboard unless we can agree to replace the tag while the dispute is still ongoing. Is there any reason to request mediation instead? My understanding is that all parties would have to agree, and the previous mediation for this article was decided in favor of the primary sources instead of the denier absolutists. Selery (talk) 23:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

No, it is just you. Maybe there are a few more dissidents. And you can keep dreaming but you must realize that the scientific consensus is against it. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 23:26, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Certainly not. You claim that the lack of reliable sources which agree with your predisposition indicates that it must be true, even though all of the most recent secondary sources strictly disagree. What reason is there to believe that a neutral third party would agree with you? Selery (talk) 23:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I am a physicist. I know what physicists in general think about this stuff: crackpot theories. Even the crackpots tend to believe that the other researchers in this area are crackpots. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 23:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Is that really the entire extent of what you want people to base your credibility on? Why do you think we require published, reliable, secondary peer reviewed sources instead of people who simply make claims of authority? Do you believe that all electroweak interactions are already known in their entirety? If so, on what do you base that belief? Selery (talk) 00:18, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

It is easy to verify that researchers in this field are generally dismissive of the results and theories of others in this field. You yourself called the currently most successful one of the them, Andrea Rossi, "a shady character". /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 00:24, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

I did not say that Andrea Rossi was the most successful, and that certainly remains to be seen, but I'd be happy to wait for reliable sources on the topic before pontificating. What do you think of the reputations of Graham Hubler and Jean-Paul Biberian, the secondary source authors of the bulk of the deleted material in question? And again, do you say all electroweak interactions have been discovered and there will be no further changes to electroweak theory? Selery (talk) 00:34, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Since wikipedia is based on sources, I'll point out again User:Enric_Naval/pathological_science#sources_added_later. Scholar sources overwhelmingly consider cold fusion unproven. A handful of sources written by long-time supporters don't make a new consensus. Cramming low-quality sources in the lead only serves to give the false impression that the field is proven and accepted. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:38, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Please be aware that if you escalate this matter your own behavior will also come under scrutiny. For example, characterization of other editors as "denier absolutists" is likely to be viewed unfavorably. Indeed, there are strong arguments that you already have run afoul of the general sanctions regime that applies to this topic area. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:43, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that everyone's behavior is already under scrutiny because of the sanctions, and I don't think trying to make sure the article follows the peer reviewed secondary sources instead of some list of non-peer reviewed monographs and op-eds is anything to feel ashamed about. What do you think a better characterization would be for those who so strongly disbelieve that they insist we not mention the reliable sources which contradict their opinions? Selery (talk) 01:16, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

"Fellow editors" has a nice ring to it, I think. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:53, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

You might also avoid applying "disbelieve", "insist", "contradict", and "opinions" to your fellow editors. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 03:36, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

I do appreciate the civility (note "crackpot" and "dissident" above), so, how would you phrase the question? Selery (talk) 03:46, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

How about "Editors who remove reliable sources with which they disagree"? Selery (talk) 09:07, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

The major issue for me is that the sources in favour of cold fusion have been cherry picked. Overwhelmingly sources dismiss cold fusion and the scientific concensus is very much against it. Indeed, I doubt NASA, for example, is of much relevance to the field of fusion in general. Also; the lede should be relying on broader sources than peer-reviewed papers to discuss cold fusion for the lede (the lede should be more general than the actual article and give an overview of the article). Overwhelmingly the opinion of reliable sources is not favourable of Cold Fusion, it is not a violation of NPOV to make that clear in the lede. It is undue to give more weight to ongoing "research". IRWolfie- (talk) 09:55, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with your assessment of the balance of sources, let alone your assertion of consensus. However, I would like to hear from Dr. Shanahan to whom I have replied above before going into any further details. Selery (talk) 18:07, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I would like to give my feedback to the comments from User:Pieter Kuiper in this section and the section above:

• "You seemed to be on your way to an edit war, reintroducing junk" - that seems like war talk to me
• "The field is outer fringe and dominated by people like Andrea Rossi," - You have no idea what you are talking about. The field is dominated by highly credible scientists like George H. Miley (Miley is Guggenheim Fellow and Fellow of the American Nuclear Society, the American Physical Society and the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers. He was Senior NATO Fellow from 1994 to 1995, received the Edward Teller Medal in 1995, the IEEE Nuclear and Plasma Science Award in Fusion Technology in 2003 and the Radiation Science and Technology Award in 2004.).
• "The US Navy and NASA have done lots of junk science." - That's just silly rhetorical argumentation. What are you trying to prove with that ? The US Navy uses nuclear submarines and NASA put men on the moon.
• "outside the field of expertise of NASA" - NASA is looking into this for spacecraft propulsion, that is very much within their scope.
• "Advocacy for fringe stuff is obviously not reliable and unsuitable for the lede" - You cannot just call any mention of a fringe point of view "advocacy" in order to dismiss and delete it, that's ridiculous. Not in line with NPOV.
• "Stuff published in Italian or links to videos is just plain junk" - You haven't got a clue about what WP:V is all about, do you ?
• "videos are not the way real scientist communicate" - The Zawodny video is hosted on a NASA server. It is a verifiable source and it is a RS for stating that research at Nasa Langley is ongoing. see WP:SPS
• "it was long ago that important scientific results were communicated in Italian. It is junk and rubbish" - Misplaced Pages is NOT the right place to promote the view that ONLY mainstream science exists. You have a serious misconception about Misplaced Pages. POV pushing works BOTH ways.
• "The silence is eloquent. There is nothing to talk about. Some stuff in Italian or in Swedish, that is about it." - You haven't read ONE SINGLE SOURCE - forget about Rossi, forget about all the Youtube videos with "working" over-unity free energy stuff. Read the peer reviewed sources on LENR and discuss about THAT. Ask Robert_Duncan_(physicist) what he thinks about the scientific value of your attitude.
• "And you can keep dreaming but you must realize that the scientific consensus is against it." - And you can keep dreaming that you "know it all" about this topic.
• "I am a physicist. I know what physicists in general think about this stuff: crackpot theories." - Woohoo, we have a physicist on board. Hurray. From your comments on this talk page you have made clear that you have not read any source, not primary, not secondary. You don't know anything and the way you are commenting here is not scientific at all. --POVbrigand (talk) 21:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

It is still junk. There is no way nuclear transformation could not be accompanied by ionizing radiation, which is the easiest thing to detect. That is why physicists do not accept this stuff. And the participants in the charade do not believe eachother's data and/or theories. Nothing is reproducible. Zawodny cannot get this stuff of his published in a physics journal. Of course it is fascinating and notable that for example NASA lets their former ozone instrumentation guy use the NASA video people and patent staff to publish his dabblings in fusion. It just shows that NASA has too much money, money that would be better spent on educating Americans about basic laws of physics. I am not proposing to delete the article, but ordinary wikipedia standards for science articles should apply. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 21:58, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

You have not read any source on the subject. You are completely ignorant. Read up on the topic first. --POVbrigand (talk) 08:08, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

But wait, this is fascinating:

• "I know what physicists in general think about this stuff: crackpot theories."

When one considers something a crackpot theory one is not just unlikely to investigate the topic, chances for a person to fairly and objectively investigate something after the "crackpot theory" label is applied are practically non existent. One doesn't investigate crackpot theories because if you did then what would there be left for crackpots to do? The label didn't come from nowhere. 20 years ago it was much more obvious there was nothing going on than it is today. Today it doesn't matter if it works or not, you are still a crackpot. Thats not something that will just go away will it?

• "Even the crackpots tend to believe that the other researchers in this area are crackpots."

ha-ha, yes, and they tend not to read the work before they dismiss it. I've seen it many times. Rly funny. 84.106.26.81 (talk) 16:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, REAL scientists who DO get involved in LENR/cold fusion immediately cross the line and become crackpots. REAL scientists like George H. Miley, Robert Duncan and many others. What do "physicists" really KNOW about LENR ? --POVbrigand (talk) 21:02, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Current Science

Current Science is not reliable. It is some low grade non-peer reviewed journal. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:48, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

For reference, their official webpage. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Current Science has an editorial board . It is a science magazine published by the Current Science Association along with the Indian Academy of Sciences. According to the Journal Citation Reports, the journal's 2009 impact factor of the journal is 0.782. Deleting this for not being RS is not OK. --POVbrigand (talk) 08:23, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

see Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Current_Science --POVbrigand (talk) 08:43, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

The paper by Krivit was accepted in two days and is obviously only reliable for the opinions of Krivit. I see no reason to waste time arguing with your POV pushing and stone-wall tactics for weeks on end at another board. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 08:55, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Also 0.782 is a low impact factor. They have an editorial board but as the paper was not reviewed I think this shows a lack of quality control. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:40, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

It's also not a magazine, it identifies itself as a journal. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:21, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

It's clearly not a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Not a reliable source for science-related topics. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 12:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree - there is no way that they could do an adequate peer-review in two days - this is a clear bust. It's not a RS. SteveBaker (talk) 16:57, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Received on a Saturday (9 Feb 2008) and accepted on Sunday (10 Feb 2008)? That's quite odd. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:45, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

"It is clearly not a peer-reviewed scientific journal" That is a very ignorant and arrogant and completely false statement. Look at the journal and reevaluate your conclusion, thank you --POVbrigand (talk) 11:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Are you actually serious; Where on the site do they mention they perform peer review? Legitimate Peer review never takes a single day. Perhaps you are unaware what peer review is. Peer review is where experts in the same field review the paper and then submit their comments to the editors; the editor is not the peer. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:54, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Perharps you are unaware how the real science publishing world ticks "Current Science is a multidisciplinary journal and therefore research and review papers of general significance that are written clearly and well organized will be given preference. All papers, solicited and unsolicited, will be first assessed by a Reviewing Editor. Papers found unsuitable in terms of the overall requirements of the journal will be returned to the authors. The others will be sent for detailed review. Authors of these papers will be notified of acceptance, need for revision or rejection of the paper. It may be noted that papers once rejected cannot be resubmitted. Illustrations and other materials to be reproduced from other publications must be properly credited; it is the authors’ responsibility to obtain permission for reproduc- tion of figures, tables, etc. from published sources (copies of letters of permission should be sent to the editor)." --POVbrigand (talk) 17:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I will say it in bold so you can read it more clearly; peer review is not an editor reviewing the paper, it is one of the peers of the applicant in his respective field. An editor looking at a paper is merely a review. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:53, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Claiming "Current Science is not reliable. It is some low grade non-peer reviewed journal." is complete nonsense for several reasons: 1) in Misplaced Pages statements must be verifiable. IRWolfie's personal requirement that peer reviewed grade proof is needed to verify the line in question: "In December 1990 Professor Richard Oriani of Minnesota University reported excess heat." is absurd. Any verifiable source can be used to describe what Oriani reported. We are not claiming that he succeeded in getting excess heat, we are writing that he reported excess heat. 2) IRWolfie did not provide ANY reliable evidence that "Current Science" is not peer reviewed. He took one single artifact regarding submission and acceptance of one single paper and used his personal OR to come to the conclusion that the whole journal "Current Science" is not peer reviewed, he even continued to lecture how peer reviewed works and how in his vision peer review is something completely different than what is stated on "Current Science's" own website. 3) IRWolfie statement that Current Science is a "low grade" journal is simply wrong, "Impact Factor" is not the one and only info to use. One must take into consideration that the journal is copublished in India, by the Indian Academy of Sciences. Simply dismissing the whole journal the way IRWolfie does here, is madness. Trying to wrestle an argument by claiming utterly wrong things is a very unscientific approach. Using bolded text won't make it better, you might impress some inexperienced editor and that's about it. --POVbrigand (talk) 11:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

You attempted to find evidence that Current Science is peer reviewed and failed utterly. The onus is on you to show a source is reliable. Please stop wasting our time rehashing previous arguments;

1. Peer review can not occur in 1 day. Editorial review can not occur in 1 day. A journal that engages in these practices can not be reliable. It is not my vision of peer review; it is self evident as others have agreed to above.

2. You have consistently failed to demonstrate that Current Science is peer reviewed. They don't claim to be peer reviewed on their website.

3. Consult WP:SCIRS

4. You have not provided any evidence that Current Science is reliable. The Indian academy of sciences is not a large group, compare it to the IOP. That the journal is run by the Indian academy of Sciences does not automagically make it reliable.

5. I am not demanding peer reviewed grade verifiability for the text, as it stands there is already an existing source(s) used to verify the statement "In December 1990 Professor Richard Oriani of Minnesota University reported excess heat.". Adding an unreliable source does not help verify the statement.

6. You do realize that wikipedia does not use the scientific approach? The scientific method is for working on original research within science not for writing wikipedia articles. Also, what exactly is your scientific background to tell me what a "very unscientific approach" is?

stop Flogging a dead horse. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

"Current Science" is listed on Science Citation Index as one of "over 3,700 of the world's leading scientific and technical journals across 100 disciplines.". You cherry picked one article to come to your conclusion "...some low grade non-peer reviewed journal". Current Science is one of 3769 scientific journals indexed in Science citation index, thus the journal is not "low grade". On the contrary, it is evidence of the journal's reliability.

The dean of the University of Colorado Boulder Libraries put "Current Science" on a list of "peer-reviewed open access journals".

I consulted WP:SCIRS, it reads: "This page does not address reliability in context of the social sciences, biographical detail, social or political impact or controversy, or related non-scientific issues, even when these are presented in the context of a natural science article.".

WP:SCIRS nevertheless had some interesting infos: "Journal articles come in many types, including: original research, reviews, expert summaries, news, editorials, advocacy pieces, speculation, book reviews, correspondence, biographies, and eulogies." According to Current Science they indeed have a long list of different article categories. Not all of those article categories go through peer review. The article in question is in the "General Article" category. Looking at several other "General Articles" it seems they have a much shorter review (1-2 weeks) in comparison to "Research Articles" where the review takes up several months.

So from this we can conclude that: 1) current science is on of 3769 leading scientific journals. 2) the "Research Articles" undergo peer review that takes up to several months 3) the "General Articles" mostly undergo a review that normally takes 1-2 weeks. --POVbrigand (talk) 20:40, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

What is the specific source article we are discussing here? Krivit is an established tertiary source author with Oxford University Press and the American Chemical Society if I recall, so I'd like to see what he wrote. Selery (talk) 18:35, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Workshop this before replacing it

diff I removed the following text from the article:

In a January 2012 video presentation on LENR, NASA spoke about ongoing research at NASA Langley Research Center. In April 2011 Dennis M. Bushnell, Chief scientist at NASA Langley Research Center, had stated that LENR is a very "interesting and promising" new technology that is likely to advance "fairly rapidly." In a recent presentation researchers from NASA Glenn Research Center expressed a great potential for LENR.

Problems:

1. NASA does not speak and cannot speak and certainly a video that is hosted at TechnologyGateway: doesn't mean that the agency has somehow "spoken" on the topic. In particular, it is unclear whether any of the videos hosted there are subject to review by any NASA personnel.
2. The personal opinions of Dennis Bushnell on the "interesting and promising" new technology is not an indication of research and this statement probably does not belong anywhere in the article, but certainly is out-of-place in the "ongoing research" section.
3. The statement "In a recent presentation researchers from NASA Glenn Research Center expressed a great potential for LENR." is first of all ungrammatical but secondly is based off of a Russian news-media site and a primary source talk slides that do not indicate anything but the personal opinions of a particular person giving a talk. It certainly is not indicative of ongoing research that is worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia article.

Stop hosting this kind of shoddily-researched promotionalism, please.

Shoddily-researched promotionalism sounds like an emotionally based ad-hominen attack to me, and not particularly professional or neutral, although masking as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cybervigilante (talk • contribs) 01:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Hudn12 (talk) 22:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Again, I invite others to judge for themselves: NASA's first tech report on the topic, NASA LENR video, , Zawodny's slides, Bushnell's slides, Nelson's slides on the eCat, patent application, NASA's gas phase tech report, news from Russia, news from Sweden. Selery (talk) 22:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Cold_fusion#NASA_states:_.22it_works.22. Those were only the personal opinions of scientists Bushnell and Zawodny, who work at NASA. It was never the official position of NASA. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:49, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Hm, personal opinions embodied in their official work product and technical memoranda? In any case we still have this on NASA's website: "Tests conducted at NASA Glenn Research Center in 1989 and elsewhere consistently show evidence of anomalous heat during gaseous loading and unloading of deuterium into and out of bulk palladium. At one time called “cold fusion,” now called “low-energy nuclear reactions” (LENR), such effects are now published in peer-reviewed journals and are gaining attention and mainstream respectability. The instrumentation expertise of NASA GRC is applied to improve the diagnostics for investigating the anomalous heat in LENR." Selery (talk) 03:04, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The deletion of any mentioning of NASA from the article is ridiculous. I recently moved the NASA paragraph back from the Publications section to the Ongoing section and also added the mentioning of the NASA video.

The wording "NASA spoke about ..." of my addition could be corrected, but completely deleting NASA from the cold fusion article is obviously POV pushing.

The section about NASA should not lead the reader to believe that NASA as an institution is endorsing LENR as being real, but should show to the reader that research at NASA is ongoing and that several researchers at NASA do not share the mainstream view on LENR. The statements are all perfectly attributed to the originators.

As I stated in the previous discussion Talk:Cold_fusion#NASA_states:_.22it_works.22 it would be a good idea to include Zawodny's explanation of how the video should be understood. --POVbrigand (talk) 08:57, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Please find proper sources for your claims. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 14:27, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

It is impossible to find sources that discuss LENR and at the same time appeal to you. Two articles in main russian news outlets, but you don't like them because they are russian ? A peer reviewed article mentioning LENR experiemtns at NASA, but you won't like them because .... the journal is .... let me think ... not science nor nature ? You keep accusing me of POV pushing, stop that ! --POVbrigand (talk) 16:36, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

What purpose does it serve to withhold this information from article readers? 67.6.156.62 (talk) 20:59, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The deletion of any mentioning of NASA from the article does indeed look ridiculous. But ok, if those are our standards we should delete all skeptical talking points from our science article, unless they have been peer reviewed of course. For example the DOE report, that scores well below the NASA video. They chose not to do the science by a single vote majority. Definitely not something of a quality that is going to refute NASA or SPAWAR. It simply isn't worth mentioning they chose not to do the science.

Or am I wrong to think the same standards should apply to both kinds of sources? 84.106.26.81 (talk) 14:27, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

It would be nice if they did. Selery (talk) 17:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Would someone please explain in why we can't quote NASA's official website to say: "Tests conducted at NASA Glenn Research Center in 1989 and elsewhere consistently show evidence of anomalous heat during gaseous loading and unloading of deuterium into and out of bulk palladium. At one time called “cold fusion,” now called “low-energy nuclear reactions” (LENR), such effects are now published in peer-reviewed journals and are gaining attention and mainstream respectability." 67.6.167.65 (talk) 21:36, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Because John D. Wrbanek is not a reliable source for the claims. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 00:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

He is a reliable source for the fact that NASA makes those claims on their web site, which with attribution is all that's necessary to include. And for what reason is he not a reliable source for the claims themselves? 67.6.175.149 (talk) 01:51, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Tests made in 1989. There were hundreds of test in 1989, and reliable sources say there were zero experiments that could replicate CF reliably. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:06, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

And other reliable sources say that many experiments reported excess heat. So we have conflicting sources. As WP is not about truth, but all about NPOV thus both views can be mentioned. The weight should be on the mainstream view, but as per WP:FRINGE applying correct WEIGHT does not equal censoring the non-mainstream view. Even if you dislike it. Enric, the way I see it, you are dismissing from the article an attributed quotation from a reliable self published source by an expert of the field on the grounds that it conflicts with the mainstream view. --POVbrigand (talk) 11:24, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

No, we have some proponents of CF claiming that they have reliable replication, some other proponents saying that they are working towards reliable replication but still not quite there, and mainstream saying that there is no reliable replication.

And, again, here we have only the personal opinions of researchers who work at NASA, not the official position of NASA. And the patent video is being hyped. See again Talk:Cold_fusion#NASA_states:_.22it_works.22. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:41, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

We do not know the official position of "NASA as an institution" on LENR. And that means both ways, not pro, not contra. Of course we must avoid giving the impression that "NASA as an institution" states that "it works" and "endorses" LENR. However, not mentioning anything about LENR research at NASA in order to avoid giving the wrong impression, to me, is an overreaction and not distinghuishable very similar to censoring. Casual WP-readers might find it very useful to find answers to these questions:

• Did NASA file a patent on a LENR related device ? (yes/no)
• Does NASA host a video on their servers discussing the topic of the patent and in which a NASA researcher depicts LENR in a positive light that is contrary to the mainstream science view ? (yes/no).
• Has NASA performed LENR research in the past ? (for secondary RS see also the mention in the peer reviewed paper from Xing Z. Li - 2006, Journal of Fusion Energy Volume 25, Numbers 3-4, 175-180, DOI: 10.1007/s10894-006-9023-8) (yes/no).
• Has a chief scientist from one of NASA's research centers lately discussed LENR in a positive way contrary to the mainstream view ? (yes/no).
• Does NASA mention LENR on their Draft Launch Propulsion Systems Technology Roadmap ? (yes/no)

We have reliable secondary sources, reliable self published sources and reliable primary sources mentioning LENR research at NASA.

We have FORBES mentioning the freaking video . I think the "hype" is only in the heads of those who don't want to hear about it.

We have discussed NASA and LENR at length on these talk pages: Talk:Cold_fusion/Archive_40#NASA_research_deleted_with_WP:WEIGHT , Talk:Cold_fusion/Archive_41#NASA , Talk:Energy_Catalyzer/Archive_4#NASA_interest

Let's work towards a reasonable mentioning of LENR research at NASA in the article, thanks. --POVbrigand (talk) 12:53, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

lets do a section with "conspiracy theories"

I just noticed we didn't cover prominent cold fusion conspiracy theories in the article.84.106.26.81 (talk) 16:16, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Such as? Reliable sources? Selery (talk) 17:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

There are many, it gets fairly silly. The DOE conspiracy to suppress cold fusion for example. People write about this all the time. It shouldn't be hard to source. 84.106.26.81 (talk) 17:18, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Or the conspiracy of hot fusion scientists who feared loosing the billions in funding for their "infinite energy source".84.106.26.81 (talk) 02:00, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I will research obfuscate and how that pertains to disinformation and confusion used as a means of defense or attack; protecting or expanding established lines of power. Does this apply here? --Gregory Goble (talk) 13:36, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the conspiracy idea is better covered in the article Free_energy_suppression. --POVbrigand (talk) 11:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

That seems the most relevant place. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Remove Sentence from Conferences Section

The following sentence is a little confusing to me having read the paper and book referenced. It also confuses the article.

(first part of sentence) By 1994, attendees offered no criticism to papers and presentations for fear of giving ammunition to external critics; thus allowing the proliferation of crackpots and hampering the conduct of serious science, (second part of sentence) and by 2002, critics and skeptics stopped attending these conferences.

'Discourse part one:

By 1994, attendees offered no criticism to papers and presentations for fear of giving ammunition to external critics; thus allowing the proliferation of crackpots and hampering the conduct of serious science,

From the paper:

But they did also continue to pursue Cold Fusion.

Reacting to criticism

of the primitive technique they had used to detect neutrons, they purchased the best neutron detection system in the world, essentially identical to the one used by Charlie Barnes at Caltech. Going one better, they installed it in physics laboratories that had been excavated under a mountain called the Gran Sasso, a two-hour drive from Rome. Anywhere on the surface of the Earth, there are always some neutrons buzzing around due to cosmic radiation from outer space. This so-called "background" has to be subtracted from the neutrons produced by any other phenomenon such as Cold Fusion. In the galleries under the Gran Sasso, the shielding effect of the mountain reduces the cosmic ray neutron background nearly to zero. That's why the laboratory was built there. An automated system was set up to monitor the neutron counter while running the temperature of a Scaramuzzi-type deuterium gas cell up and down. Every week or so, a member of the group would have to drive out to the Gran Sasso lab, check out the counters, replenish the supply of liquid nitrogen, and bring back the data.

No one could accuse them any longer of being unsophisticated about neutron work.

However, this experiment, like their own earlier work and many others blossoming around the world, produced positive results, but only sporadically.

There was no dependable recipe for coaxing bursts of neutrons out of the Cold Fusion cell. As long as that was true the world of respectable science was not going to pay any attention even to the "good kind" of Cold Fusion.

Then they decided to pursue the "bad kind" as well. They built a well- designed electrolysis cell, capable of detecting excess heat if any were produced, while obviating some of the shortcomings for which previous excess heat experiments had been criticized.

In 1992 and 1993, these experiments, too, gave positive results.

The cell would produce very substantial amounts of heat (a few watts) for periods of tens of hours at a time. As in the neutron experiments, these episodes were sporadic, occurring seemingly at random, but at least they occurred only when the fluid in the cell was heavy water (containing deuterium), never when it was light water (containing ordinary hydrogen). The lack of this kind of control experiment had been one of the points of

criticism

of Pons and Fleischmann. However, by this time, the world of mainstream science was no longer listening.

'I could post the whole paper but this example runs throughout; criticism and critiques, serious science, sporadic, reproducible, unexplained. To take part of a sentence from a paper and create the sentence found in this Misplaced Pages article may be taking the intent of the author of the paper out of context.

'Discourse part two:

and by 2002, critics and skeptics stopped attending these conferences.

From the back cover of the book:

Simon argues that in spite of widespread skepticism in the scientific community, there has been a continued effort to make sense of the controversial phenomenon.

Researchers in well-respected laboratories continue to produce new and rigorous work.

In this manner cold fusion research continues…

The survival of cold fusion {research} signals the need for a more complex understanding of the social dynamics of scientific knowledge making; the boundaries between experts, intermediaries, and the lay public; and the conceptualization of failure in the history of science and technology.

{author} Bart Simon is an assistant professor in the department of sociology and anthropology at Concordia University in Montreal, Canada.

'Note that the author is an assistant professor of sociology not physics. To reference part of a sentence from this book may be taking the intent of the author out of context. I liked his book about the survival of cold fusion research because it touches nicely on disbelief, confusion, and misunderstanding as it occurs in science. Scientists from well-respected laboratories are critics, they critique each others work rigorously, and they attend these conferences enabling them to continue to produce new and rubust work. Bart Simon probably knows that. Amateur ‘garage’ cold fusion researchers are allowed to attend conferences and proliferate i.e. crackpots. Science in its' broader (public) sense is the combined views of "experts, intermediaries, and the lay public"; as is exhibited in the edit history of the Misplaced Pages article on Cold Fusion.

'Summary:

To do justice to the two authors and to clarify the article I would like to see the sentence removed. The two documents referenced are full of great replacement sentences to use, in whole or in piecemeal.

One suggestion is:

The survival of cold fusion {research} signals the need for a more complex understanding of the social dynamics of scientific knowledge making; the boundaries between experts, intermediaries, and the lay public; for as long as that was true the world of respectable science was not going to pay any attention even to the "good kind" of Cold Fusion.

I hope there are other better replacement suggestions?

Probably just removing it is best.

An explanation that amateur ‘garage’ cold fusion researchers are allowed to attend conferences is needed. --Gregory Goble (talk) 13:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Your comment here seems like a stream of conciousness, can you please state what text or sources you have issue with. Then can you show what changes you propose and based on which reliable sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:05, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The sources stated above are from the article cold fusion. No new sources are referenced. What is your specific rebuttal to this? Please clarify and respond to my reasoning as outlined above (in the talk page which proposes my edit)?--76.21.89.69 (talk) 10:49, 30 January 2012 (UTC) Please add a relevant comment to: Discourse one, Discourse two, or Summary from edit request... Remove sentence from conferences section - cold fusion... talk page, cold fusion. Thank You IRWolfie. ngage in conversation or delete comment please.--76.21.89.69 (talk) 10:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)One suggestion is: The survival of cold fusion {research} signals the need for a more complex understanding of the social dynamics of scientific knowledge making; the boundaries between experts, intermediaries, and the lay public; for as long as that was true the world of respectable science was not going to pay any attention even to the "good kind" of Cold Fusion.or have you a suggestion?--76.21.89.69 (talk) 11:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)oops I somehow logged out so now I willl sign this--Gregory Goble (talk) 19:16, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

"critics and skeptics stopped attending these conferences" should be sourceable to several RS. There was this scientist Douglas Morrison who went to the conferences to make questions and ask for a cup of tea heated with a CF cell, and he is cited as the last critic who persisted in going until he died in 2001. I can't search sources right now, have a Discovery article --Enric Naval (talk) 11:46, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Enric Naval,

Discovery

It's of great use to wonder... Why our minds wander... In awe of it all...

Being forever true... Seeking the new... We are just now discovering...

That which has always been...

Impatiently awaiting us ... Craving our keen attention... And hoping for deeper understanding....

Awesome is the wonder of discovery... and the power of awe...

gbgoble'2008

I hope this prose helps you with your work on the Discovery article.

As to your comment... and he is cited as the last critic who persisted in going until he died in 2001 every scientist is a critic and the scientists who attend Cold Fusion conferences are qualified critics. The scientific method requires critiques from others... that is part of the verification process. The sentence I will delete again is comprised of two parts taken from separate sources. Constructed as it is, it twists the gist of what both authors are stating, taking their words out of context. Note how many times critisism, or a variant of the word, is mentioned in the paper and the book (please read both). The last conference was well attended by respectable scientists from around the world who came there to participate in the scientific method in regards to cold fusion research. Anyone who insists that the last critic to attend the conference was in 2001 is ignorant of the process of scientific method which requires constant critiques from qualified individuals. The sentence is confusing and does not add clarity to the article.

From the book... "The survival of cold fusion {research} signals the need for a more complex understanding of the social dynamics of scientific knowledge making; the boundaries between experts, intermediaries, and the lay public; and the conceptualization of failure in the history of science and technology."--Gregory Goble (talk) 19:12, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are trying to achieve --POVbrigand (talk) 23:53, 30 January 2012 (UTC) More input please...--Gregory Goble (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC) Does this help clarify POVbrigand --Gregory Goble (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand. Your input has helped me realize the need for a clearer revision. --Gregory Goble (talk) 13:41, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

A few of you have commented. From this I've learned a few things... thank you. I will collapse my earlier introduction to my edit request in a few days. Here is a revision. I hope it answers some of your questions.

Conferences

Cold fusion researchers were for many years unable to get papers accepted at scientific meetings, prompting the creation of their own conferences. The first International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF) was held in 1990, and has met every 12 to 18 months since. By 1994, attendees offered no criticism to papers and presentations for fear of giving ammunition to external critics; thus allowing the proliferation of crackpots and hampering the conduct of serious science, and by 2002, critics and skeptics stopped attending these conferences. With the founding in 2004 of the International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Science (ISCMNS), the conference was renamed the International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science—an example of the approach the cold fusion community has adopted in avoiding the term cold fusion and its negative connotations. Cold fusion research is often referenced by proponents as "low-energy nuclear reactions", or LENR, but according to sociologist Bart Simon the "cold fusion" label continues to serve a social function in creating a collective identity for the field.

The third sentence:

“By 1994, attendees offered no criticism to papers and presentations for fear of giving ammunition to external critics; thus allowing the proliferation of crackpots and hampering the conduct of serious science, and by 2002, critics and skeptics stopped attending these conferences.”

This sentence conveys that the conference:

• Allows a proliferation of crackpots and hampers serious science due to the lack of criticism and review of papers and experiments, which is lacking due to fear of external critics.

• Is where only these crackpots attend. (the sentence isn’t really clear on this)

• Has no critics or skeptics attend.

I would like to see the sentence removed. It confuses the article lending a lot of weight to discrediting these conferences in the mind of the reader. The sentence, constructed as it is, misconstrues both authors intent.

The first half of the sentence is constructed from, 
"Whatever Happened to Cold Fusion?" 
by David Goodstein.

His paper contains no footnotes that I can use to verify his claims or opinions, though it is a good paper full of insight about what went wrong during the early development of the field of cold fusion. He is a qualified physicist with a deep understanding of cold fusion research.

The paper has 41 paragraphs which I note as reference points.

This sentence is put together from paragraph (2). Letters footnote the pertinent reference points from paragraph (2). As found in wikipedia the beginning of the sentence is, “By 1994 attendees offered no criticism...” This is a definitive no, meaning none.

While the author uses “almost never”(a1) or “”there is little”(a2) or "tend to be"(a3) or even “don’t receive the normal critical review.”(a1) (perhaps they receive abnormal critical review)

Clearly here the authors words are taken out of context and this needs correcting.

(a) By 1994, attendees offered no criticism to papers and presentations (b)for fear of giving ammunition to external critics; thus (c)allowing the proliferation of crackpots and (d)hampering the conduct of serious science.

• (a1) almost never published in refereed scientific journals, with the result that those works don't receive the normal critical scrutiny that science requires

• (a2) there is little internal criticism.

• (a3) Experiments and theories tend to be accepted at face value

(2)Contrary to appearances, however, this was no normal scientific conference. Cold Fusion is a pariah field, cast out by the scientific establishment. Between Cold Fusion and respectable science there is virtually no communication at all. Cold fusion papers are almost never published in refereed scientific journals, with the result that those works don't receive the normal critical scrutiny that science requires. (a1)On the other hand, because the Cold-Fusioners see themselves as a community under siege, (a2)there is little internal criticism. (a3)Experiments and theories tend to be accepted at face value, (b)for fear of providing even more fuel for external critics, if anyone outside the group was bothering to listen. (c)In these circumstances, crackpots flourish, making (d)matters worse for those who believe that there is serious science going on here.

Besides the conflict of this contextual error perpetrated on Misplaced Pages; we have the following conflict in the authors paper in regards to criticism and reviews going on from these conferences.

The first third of the paper is mainly about Cold Fusion as a field cast out by the scientific establishment, a pariah field. The author is explaining the consequences of an erosion of the boundaries of experts, intermediaries, and the layman in regards to the failure of science.

In the rest of the paper the author mainly speaks of cold fusion research, nuclear theory, new theory, etc.

This is where he makes numerous contradictions from his second paragraphs statements in regards to healthy criticism and its attendant benefits in regards to cold fusion research.

These are 12 examples of the author referring to criticism, review, and or responses to review and critique within the field of cold fusion.

These contradictions show perhaps a conflict within the incomplete understanding of "news room science" and its affect on failure, as seen by others in the scientific community and eyes of the public.

Either way it weakens the argument for taking the authors words out of context for the use found here in wikipedia.

I. (31)Reacting to criticism of the primitive technique they had used to detect neutrons, they purchased the best neutron detection system in the world, essentially identical to the one used by Charlie Barnes at Caltech. (criticism from review)

II. (31)No one could accuse them any longer of being unsophisticated about neutron work. (infers others review and pass judgment)

III. (32)The lack of this kind of control experiment had been one of the points of criticism of Pons and Fleischmann. (not counted/prior to the first conference)

IV. (34)Nevertheless, his message was an optimistic one for Cold Fusion. In essence (although Franco didn't say it in these words) each of the criticisms that Nate Lewis had correctly leveled at the experiments of Pons and Fleischmann had been successfully countered by new experiments reported at the conference. (“successfully countered” infers response to others review and judgment)

V. (35)One of the criticisms that Nate had used with telling effect is that local hot-spots often develop in electrolysis experiments (Nate is himself an electrochemist, and a consummate experimentalist). (criticism from review)

VI. (35)To counter this argument, Franco could point to the design of the cell used by his own Frascati group, which carefully averaged the temperature of the entire cell, rather than measuring it at a single point (Many other groups had introduced mechanical stirrers into their cells). ("to counter this argument" and “could point to” infers response to others review and judgement)

VII. (35)That would be true, the critics replied, if the chemicals were being generated at the same time as the heat. (at the 1993 Maui conference)

VIII. (36)Finally, one of the most damaging criticisms of Pons and Fleischmann was that they had failed to do control experiments. (not counted/prior to the first conference)

IX. (36)Franco dutifully reported these results at the Rome seminar, expressing only muted disapproval ("In my opinion, these results have not been consolidated," he said). (example of a report of a review and critique delivered by a conference attendee)

X. (39)The audience at Rome, certainly the senior professors who were present, listened politely, but they did not hear what Franco was saying (that much became clear from the questions that were asked at the end of the seminar, and comments that were made afterward). (infers senior professors criticized the report from IX )

XI. (40)However, I have looked at their cells, and looked at their data, and it's all pretty impressive. The Japanese experiment showing that heat nearly always results when x is greater than 0.85 looks even more impressive on paper. It seems a particularly elegant, well designed experiment, at least to the untutored eye of a physicist (what do I know about electrochemistry?) (author reviewing data and papers presented at a conference)

XII. (40)What all these experiments really need is critical examination by accomplished rivals intent on proving them wrong. (author is helping in this regards)


Whatever Happened to Cold Fusion?
 by David Goodstein

(12) The Cold Fusion story seemed to stand science on its head, not only because it was played out in the popular press without the ritual of peer-review, but also because both sides of the debate violated what are generally supposed to be the central canons of scientific logic.

I will finish this when input and time arrives.--Gregory Goble (talk) 21:59, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I seriously suggest you shorten your argument. Over 10,000 words is extremely long for an article discussion thread. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:54, 2 February 2012 (UTC) THANKS--Gregory Goble (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you think my argument is valid and that I should remove the sentence now?--Gregory Goble (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I have reported this edit war and Gregory Goble's WP:3RR violation here. Others are welcome to comment in line with that noticeboard's standard practices. EdChem (talk) 01:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC) THANKS my bad--Gregory Goble (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

THANKS for posting the following on my talk page:

This is your talk page. Enric Naval may not see your comments here. Are you a native english speaker or are you making use of a service such as google translate? IRWolfie- (talk) 20:13, 30 January 2012 (UTC)---- THANKS--Gregory Goble (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Your contributions on the talk page are incoherent ramblings. It is impossible for other editors to understand your wish to delete the text you keep removing. Binksternet (talk) 21:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)---THANKS--Gregory Goble (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Gregory, I have reported your WP:3RR violation here: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Gregory Goble reported by User:EdChem .28Result: .29 You are welcome to post in that section should you wish. EdChem (talk) 01:06, 31 January 2012 (UTC)---THANKS--Gregory Goble (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I can not find it at: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Can you help me locate it?--Gregory Goble (talk) 13:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

It was archived here. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:18, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

All mention of NASA has been deleted from this article

How does this help readers? This article is about, in part, a controversy. The fact that NASA is working on it is controversial, and there are several reliable NASA sources saying so, including their own public web site. What are the arguments for and against deleting all mention of NASA from the entire article? 71.33.169.12 (talk) 18:26, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

see Talk:Cold_fusion#Workshop_this_before_replacing_it. The deletion of all mention of NASA was done by User:Hudn12 - Special:Contributions/Hudn12. It seems that 2 editors support this act of, what I think can be described as, censorship. Completely irrational and conflicting with WP policies. --POVbrigand (talk) 21:38, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

WOW For how long? Odds are... see the latest. Wiki AbCom discussion Special Contributions. Intetesting.--Gregory Goble (talk) 13:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

What are you referring to? IRWolfie- (talk) 16:49, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

NASA don't seem to take it too seriously: IRWolfie- (talk) 13:45, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

That is dated November 12, 2009. This statement is dated December 16, 2011: "Tests conducted at NASA Glenn Research Center in 1989 and elsewhere consistently show evidence of anomalous heat during gaseous loading and unloading of deuterium into and out of bulk palladium. At one time called “cold fusion,” now called “low-energy nuclear reactions” (LENR), such effects are now published in peer-reviewed journals and are gaining attention and mainstream respectability. The instrumentation expertise of NASA GRC is applied to improve the diagnostics for investigating the anomalous heat in LENR." What purpose does it serve to withhold this information from article readers? 67.6.156.62 (talk) 20:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, IRWolfie draws his conclusion to support his prejudiced POV. "NASA don't seem to take it too seriously" is a weasel phrase, what does "too seriously" mean ? It is not a direct quote and from the full quote there is nothing that supports: "NASA don't seem to take it too seriously", on the contrary.

"What about Cold Fusion? - First, this effect should NEVER have been dubbed "cold fusion." It should have been called an "anomalous heat effect." That means you don't know what's going on, but it involves heat. The part about "we don't know what's going on" is still very true. - Most evidence points to this being a dead end, but not all the evidence. If I recall correctly, about 30% or the replications for producing heat work, and 70% do not. The evidence also does not indicate that a normal nuclear reaction is occurring. Heat?- maybe, sometimes. Nuclear fusion as we know it?- no. - It is not being studied very seriously in the US, in fact it is generally frowned upon, but some countries like France and Japan are still looking into it. - If it is real and if it is useful, then someday, someone will make a practical and unambiguous device out of it. If it is not real, you're still probably going to be hearing lots of stories about it for years to come -- an "Elvis sighting" phenomena." "--POVbrigand (talk) 07:44, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

1. NASA LENR video
2. Bushnell, Dennis M. (2011-04-23), "The Future of Energy (Interview with Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist of NASA Langley)", EV World (audio), 04:24, retrieved 3 June 2011
3. NASA promises an era of low-energy fusion - Cnews.ru - 13 Dec 2011 (google translate from Russian)
4. "NASA once again promises a breakthrough in cold fusion" - Gazeta-ru - 14 Dec 2011 (google translate from russian)
5. "LENR at GRC" Presentation

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