Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:41, 4 February 2012

Before posting, check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions. Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports.

Sections older than 5 days archived by lowercase sigmabot III.

Additional notes:

• WP:RSN
• WP:RS/N
• WP:V/N

• RFCs for deprecation, blacklisting, or other classification should not be opened unless the source is widely used and has been repeatedly discussed. Consensus is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments.
• While the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not policy.
• This page is not a forum for general discussions unrelated to the reliability of sources.

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This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

When is YouTube a good source?

I have a dispute with another editor about the extent that web-published video can constitute strict publication. I'm too tired to type one more sentence of summary or bickering, so I thought perhaps I could start a thread discussion the topic in the abstract. What conditions do you believe need to be in place to consider a networked video (e.g. YouTube) to be a good, reliable, verifiable source of information? Squish7 (talk) 02:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Thats not very specific. I'm no expert but I think never, that doesn't mean you cant use it at all but usually no. It depends on who originally published it and under what license. Weekly Republican Address has 140 youtube videos for example. If the original source is good enough to use but the copyrights are in question it is best to provide only a reference in text without a link:

<ref>person(s), "the title of the production", who published it, the date it was published.</ref>

In stead of, for example:

<ref>Mr G., "Under Pressure", Do Try This at Home, Season 2, Episode 1, 2014</ref>

You could look at other articles how sources are used. Here is a search for "youtube.com".

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special%3ASearch&search=youtube.com&fulltext=1

84.106.26.81 (talk) 00:31, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

• The IP address above is completely incorrect. It's actually very simple about when you can use Youtube. If the video is hosted on the channel of an official news organizations, like the official Fox News or CNN Youtube channel, then the video are both reliable and don't violate copyright. Silverseren 04:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I didn't think he was asking for cases where it is obvious. I thought the question was where the line is. 84.106.26.81 (talk) 17:37, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

• I have not clicked on all of them at the Republican article but so far a couple are perfect examples of when YouTube can be used. Example: this is a primary source (so use it with care) but it should be OK. The YouTube channel is verified as being official with the link to it from here (lower right). There are some concerns overall (not enough secondary sources, refs are not formatted correctly) but those are a whole other issue. More info can be seen at an essay I started: Misplaced Pages:Video links.Cptnono Follow-up:Didn't realize we were looking at it as an "abstract". There are too many variables to give an answer here which is why YouTube videos should be judged on a case by case basis.(talk) 20:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

• It is only acceptable when it is the YouTube channel of something that otherwise conforms to WP:RS, like Fox News, and then under the requirements for other broadcast media. It's never acceptable if it's a self-published source (see WP:SPS) unless it's about itself: say, Pat Condell's YouTube Commentaries become popular enough to be relevant to Misplaced Pages, etc. For example, I could make ten YouTube videos on why space aliens are real and how they put on suits of skin to become our leaders and usher in the New World Order; those videos could then be used to artificially lend more WP:WEIGHT to an extremely fringe cause. From that example, it should be clear why such sources are never acceptable. JohnChrysostom (talk) 13:33, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Did you really have to pick Faux News as your example? To be a reliable source, there must be a reputation for fact checking, not just a large audience. There are in fact some reliable publishers with redistribution via YouTube channels, but Jon Stewart has made a living for years out of spotting the errors on Faux. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:14, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

What if the video is of a BLP subject giving information about themselves that is used to support material in their article? As long as it's unambiguously clear that it is indeed the subject in question, then wouldn't it be permissable to use for some info, like an artist discussing the techniques and materials they use, for example? Nightscream (talk) 09:10, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

"I use the best materials in the world and possess the best technique. I name my techniques differently to what art historians and art theorists name techniques." cf: The tree shaping case. Fifelfoo (talk) 09:12, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Huh? I'm not following. Can you clarify? Nightscream (talk) 03:55, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• Individuals are often the worst source regarding themselves, they are habitually self serving, they are the perfect example of a PRIMARY and an involved source. They have no distance from themselves, and make outrageous claims on a regular basis that experts do not. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:11, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Is Encyclopedia Britannica a reliable source?

As I am having problems with two users, Athenean and Alexikoua, who keep repeatedly deleting every citation i make from Encyclopedia Britannica, I want to ask if Encyclopedia Britannica can be accepted as a source in Misplaced Pages or not. I have seen that scores of articles use at a source, so we have to establish if this source should be allowed in Misplaced Pages. (Edvin (talk) 00:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC))

See for example Talk:Albania#Encyclopedia Britannica is regarded as a trusted source by Misplaced Pages community. There are several articles involved in a consensus building exercise including Albania, History of Albania, London Conference of 1912-1913 in which many sorts of sources are being offered up for examination including, primary sources--contemporary news paper accounts, secondary sources and tertiary sources. In this case EB stands for http://www.britannica.com rather than Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition. -- PBS (talk) 23:59, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

A reliable source for what? As is made clear at the top of this page, we need more information. What is it being used as a source for? I'd also suggest you read WP:PSTS - the Encyclopedia Britannica is a tertiary source, and we quite explicitly state that "Some tertiary sources are more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others". There is no yes-or-no answer to your question. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

EB is, at best, a tertiary source per many past discussions here. In addition, the online version solicits revisions from readers, which has also been established at RS/N. And since "RS" has nothing to do with "truth", EB is pretty much ruled out as a source - you probably should look at the sources the EB cites instead. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC) Appending: The OP seems to also be posting related complaints at AN/I concurrently. Collect (talk) 00:47, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I have added Cheers article from EB as "Further reading" source rather than reference. If you want, you can still add EB articles into "Further reading" section; don't forget, be bold! Cheers, George Ho (talk) 00:56, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

"EB is pretty much ruled out as a source" What?! That's the craziest thing I've read on Misplaced Pages all day. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:19, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Since when was EB ruled out as a source? I've never ever heard that, especially when we cross-post public domain content from old versions of it. Silverseren 07:17, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Multiple discussions on RSN and elsewhere - if a fact needs a cite, the EB is where you look to find a cite, but as a tertiary source it is deficient for most WP purposes. And since the online EB solicits revisions, it is even less an RS. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC) By the way, the 1911 edition was used to "populate" Misplaced Pages at the start, and is now generally regarded as having been a mistake. It was only "public domain" at the start because of the odd US copyright laws of the time, and most uses on WP are being removed over time. See Misplaced Pages:1911_Encyclopaedia_Britannica, and the fact that there is a specific template for such articles Collect (talk) 12:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

You mean discussions like this, where you're the only person saying it is an unreliable source? I think you're really the only one or one of very few here that thinks Britannica isn't a reliable source. As Andy pointed out above, it does depend on what you're using it for, but that's true for any source. As a whole, the Britannica is reliable, it's just not as good as a secondary source, since it is a conglomeration of secondary sources, but tertiary sources are still perfectly reliable, especially for general, big picture information. Silverseren 13:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I fear you have missed a number of discussions on this - including opinionf from Jimbo, Gwen Gale and a number of others about it as a source. Meaning, once editors begin to dig at all into a topic, encyclopedias are out, gone, toast, the end. Stay away from 'em, other than as a means to find out what to look for and where, but even that can be way dodgy, owing to the wanton systemic bias of most any tertiary reference. etc. also show remarkable unanimity that non-specialized encyclopedias are tertiary sources at best. ditto. Sorry - I am far from the only person with this view. shows a view on a GA page. ditto. ditto. ditto. and another. and another. But you could only find s single discussion? I find literally hundreds of them. Cheers - EB was, and remains, "tertiary". And it is specialized tertiary sources which are usable. Not "general ones. Collect (talk) 18:57, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

It's nice that Jimbo and Gwen Gale have opinions, but personal opinions aren't policy. Our policy states that reliable sources are those who have a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking. Clearly, Encyclopedia Britanica has such a reputation. I mean, are you honestly trying to say that EB isn't a reputable encyclopedia? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

And well over two dozen other editors and admins ... and so far "tertiary sources" remain "tertiary sources." And remember "reputable" != "reliable source" per WP:RS so that cavil fails. The fact is that Misplaced Pages requires stronger sourcing than tertiary encyclopedia articles are. And that should end the issue utterly. Collect (talk) 00:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

It depends on who wrote the EB article. If it is written by an acknowledged expert, then it becomes an article by a secondary source and is then better than a secondary source written by a layman.

Collect, I think you are making a mistake in assuming that all secondary sources are of the same type of quality. For example I have recently been involved in a discussion over the year in which a man was allegedly knighted by Queen Elizabeth I. We have found a secondary source that uses primary sources that does not list the man as one who received a knighthood in that year (but the source may not have surveyed all the primary sources). However, it seems that for this fact many modern day secondary sources rely on Victorian secondary sources, which rely on an 18th century source that cites a 17th century source. We have not yet found a secondary source that cites a primary source. But clearly when (or if) such a secondary source is found, it will be "better" than all the sources that cite older secondary sources. A secondary source that does not cite primary sources, but relies on other secondary sources is no better or worse than a general encyclopaedia as a source, and many many books support facts with citations to other previously published secondary sources. An good example of this is the propagation in may English language books published from the 1960s until the late 1990s of the incorrect figure of 130,000 killed in the bombing raids on Dresden in February 1945. German historians had provided the correct figures back in the 1970s, but these were ignored in many books and articles in favour of David Irving incorrect figures published in his book The Destruction of Dresden. It took a decade after he was discredited in court before the correct figures became generally accepted (and were stated as a fact without hedging in the Misplaced Pages article).

BTW where is the alleged fact that Misplaced Pages requires stronger sourcing than tertiary encyclopaedia articles to be found in the verifiability or WP:PSTS policies? -- PBS (talk) 05:11, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

It depends. Nothing wrong with citing tertiary sources in general, but if there are better sources, they should be preferred. Dicklyon (talk) 04:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Yup. Another pointless argument about abstract 'reliability'. As far as Misplaced Pages policy is concerned, there is no such thing. Since the OP has declined to tell us what the Encyclopaedia is being cited for, I suggest that we close this 'debate', and all do something more useful instead... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:15, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The issue is, it isn't an RS issue at all, it's a copyright issue. Brittanica is very much an RS. The 1911 edition was used appropriately to populate our early articles about botany, for example. But if we absorb lots of content from a tertiary source that we're basically in competition with, that can cause problems. Squidfryerchef (talk) 01:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

How is it a problem? -- PBS (talk) 05:11, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised we're even questioning EB's use as a source. If EB is ruled out, then we ought to erase millions of other far more dubious sources which are gaily quoted on Misplaced Pages but have no verifiable standing - e.g. random websites, newspapers and magazines which may just be one person's uninformed (and possibly biased) opinion. --Bermicourt (talk) 07:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has certial rules about "tertiary sources." It has nothing whatsoever to do with "truth" but to do with the desired nature of Misplaced Pages's sourcing. And opinions are citable only as opinions in any case, and most "random websites" are utterly unacceptable, so that sort of argument holds no water. And if something can be found in a tertiary source, it should reasonably be findale in an acceptable secondary source, just as we also rule out most primary sources on the basis that important information should be findale in a secondary source. Cheers. Collect (talk) 07:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The basic policy about tertiary sources is 'Reliably published tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, especially when those sources contradict each other.'

So yes one should avoid using them for particular facts but they can be used to help with the summary and overall structure and with assessing weight. And primary sources can very often be more reliable than secondary sources, just we must not trawl through primary sources for new things but only use stuff which has been mentioned in secondary sources. Basically primary sources give no notability but may be more accurate and have some weight. Dmcq (talk) 11:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

While there is nothing in WP:PSTS against using tertiary sources, there are strong restrictions on the way that primary sources can be used, and unpublished primary sources may not be used. -- PBS (talk) 05:11, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

It is not always clear cut whether something is a secondary or tertiary source. For example is the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography as secondary or tertiary source? -- PBS (talk) 05:11, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

You can use tertiary sources for particular facts as well. I think the current policy formulations are often somewhat misunderstood. Imho it is a mistake or misunderstanding to take taking that policy all too literally. The notion that tertiary are per se "inferior" is rather misleading. First of of all there is often no clear cut distinction between secondary and tertiary and more importantly the quality (and domain) of a source is much more important than a formal distinction between secondary and tertiary. Meaning a high quality tertiary source (say an academic special subject encyclopedia or a standard textbook) is often better and more reliable source than some mediocre secondary source. Another thing to keep in mind, is how WP articles are actually written. The (ideal) situation, that a domain expert with an overview of all relevant secondary (and primary) sources compiles them into an article, is simply not a workable scenario for the bulk of our articles/content. Instead many WP articles are written by non experts with only a limited or even no overview of the relevant secondary sources. Such authors usually compile the knowledge of (academic) textbooks and (academic) encyclopedias into WP, which are usually at least partially tertiary sources. From that perspective you might even argue that the bulk of our reliable sources is tertiary to begin with.

As far as the original problem (editors deleting any EB references (or any tertiary reference) is concerned, I'd even consider that vandalism, that is, people removing EB references without replacing it by another (superior, secondary) source. Now there can be individual cases where you can consider an EB reference as insufficient or inappropriate, but that needs to be judged on case by case basis. Also the very recent (user based) content additions of the EB need to be viewed with a greater scrutiny. But then again I find it hard to image a scenario where no reference is better than an EB reference.--Kmhkmh (talk) 06:22, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

• It seems to me the whole 'philosophy' behind the RS guidelines is to maximise the accuracy of relaying information. A good secondary sources should rely on primary sources, so are one step away from the facts. Tertiary sources rely on secondary sources and therefore are two steps away, so you get an escalation of the chinese whisper effect. That doesn't make tertiary sources unreliable, just less reliable than a secondary source by its very nature; also a good tertiary source like EB is better than a poor secondary source like the Daily Mail (where we've actually had instances of them making up stories (I don't recall similar discussions about EB). So in general, if something is good enough for EB it probably should be good enough for Misplaced Pages, but the aim should always be to seek out sources that put us closest to the facts. Betty Logan (talk) 06:38, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Well yes there is potential "whisper effect". However high quality (scholarly) tertiary sources are usually written by experts that looked at all or most relevant primary and secondary sources, which means (ideally) there's no whisper effect at all in such a scneario. Also instead of seeing it from the whisper effect perspective, you can also see it as an error removing filter perspective, meaning good tertiary sources add an additional level of expert scrutiny and are without possible errors and mistakes still contained in original primary and secondary sources. As far as "closest" to the facts is concerned, you could argue that's an argument for primary rather than for secondary sources. But the problem there is, that the perceptions of facts might differ and that for an encyclopedia the simple stating of facts is not enough either (knowledge versus information). Encyclopedia needs to contextualize, connect and explain facts and also consider different perceptions, incomplete information/"missing facts and such. That's exactly where the secondary and tertiary sources come in.--Kmhkmh (talk) 07:10, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

"Editors can post questions here about whether particular sources are reliable, in context, and editors interested in sourcing issues will answer. "

I agree with User:AndyTheGrump. There is no "abstract 'reliability' without exact context. Since the OP has declined to tell us what the Encyclopaedia is being cited for, I suggest that we close this 'debate', ..." without any conclusion due to lack of the context and the fact there is no abstract general reliability.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:56, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I added the context as in insert at the top of this section. -- PBS (talk) 23:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry but I can't see the context you added. Does it contain any of below information requested for this page:

• The article in which it is being used. For example article name
• The exact statement in the article that the source is supporting. For example

  text

  . Many sources are reliable for statement "X" but unreliable for statement "Y".
• Links to relevant talk page discussion. See diffs for an explanation.

I am not following this discussion so if there is a context with above mentioned information please talkback me on my talkpage. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

See the second paragraph in this section that starts "See for example Talk:Albania#Encyclopedia Britannica is regarded as a trusted source by Misplaced Pages community ..." -- PBS (talk) 02:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

• Unreliable for proposed uses. EB is an unsigned tertiary aimed at the general public. There have been fundamental criticisms of its fact checking, analysis and thoroughness. EB is not a reliable source for most academic topics, as its purpose is pedagogical and not scholarly. The proposed uses relate to the history of Albania, an academic topic. EB is not reliable for this. See WP:HISTRS for appropriate tertiary sources to use in history articles (signed tertiaries published by academic historians or equivalent peers, in the scholarly press, or equivalent press as reviewed, that are aimed at other scholarly practitioners.) Fifelfoo (talk) 02:13, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Every article in EB is identified with an author, who is often a recognised expert. -- 202.124.75.249 (talk) 00:08, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Frog (amphibian) identifies a "primary contributor" which is different to "signing;" Australian Cattledog has no named contributor. I'm sorry 202.… but you're not correct. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:49, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

...its purpose is pedagogical and not scholarly.

So what? Exactly the same criticism can be leveled, and with even greater justice, against every single university-level textbook, and we routinely accept such sources as being reliable.

I suspect that you have confused "best possible source" with "meets minimum standards for being a reliable source".

The actual qualities that define a reliable source are not whether it's "scholarly" or "secondary". They are

1. It has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
2. It is published by a reputable publishing house, rather than by the author(s).
3. It is "appropriate for the material in question", i.e., the source is directly about the subject, rather than mentioning something unrelated in passing.
4. It is a third-party or independent source.
5. It has a professional structure in place for deciding whether to publish something, such as editorial oversight or peer review processes.

EB easily qualifies on every single point.

Now—you could certainly find better sources. But the existence of a better source doesn't mean that EB becomes unreliable. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:47, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Secondary and Undergraduate tertiary textbooks do not possess a "professional structure in place for deciding whether to publish something," fit to the claim. Historical claims emerge from a disciplinary process—this is very distinct from pedagogical purposes. What other fields are willing to accept in relation to undergraduate texts is another matter, but generalist encyclopaedia and undergraduate texts, in the area of history, routinely and overwhelmingly mischaracterise the findings of scholarship, the methodology of interpretation, and the scholarly debate. EB is not reliable for history. Fifelfoo (talk) 05:44, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Diamond Calk Horsehoe Company/ Otto Swanstrom

The article is reliable. To confirm its accuracy or to expand on its content please contact me at:

Harry W. Deckard

The Law Office of Harry W. Deckard 808 West 10th St. Suite 100 Austin, TX 78701

(512) 589-2698

War Diaries

Hi several articles in the Sinai and Palestine Campaign have War Diaries for references. There have all been made available in there original uncorrected form by the Australian War Memorial site. These are obviously primary documents, filled in by several persons over a length of time. But are they considered reliable? I would suggest not, but was looking for some other opinions. Here is a link to one of the diaries used Jim Sweeney (talk) 09:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Can we say Fog of war? I'd consider them reliable for individual experiences, but not for most factual information. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 09:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I included small numbers of references to a Royal Australian Air Force operations record book (which is the RAAF equivalent of a war diary) and a personal file in the National Archives of Australia in the No. 79 Squadron RAAF and John Treloar (museum administrator) articles with no complaints at all during their FACs. Hawkeye7 also referenced several war diaries in the FA Battle of Sio and (from memory) several articles which have passed A class reviews, so there's no generic problem with using these primary sources in articles. My personal approach is to only use them to add extra details to topics which are explicitly covered in secondary sources and where there's a clear-cut need for this information, and I think that's the approach most other editors take. The official war diaries held by the AWM are one the bedrocks of Australian military history and have been heavily used by virtually all serious Australian military historians, so they can be presumed to be a broadly accurate records of the unit's experiences. They are primary sources though, so they need to be used in moderation and with great care. You might be interested in John Treloar (museum administrator)#World War I for an indication of the kind of effort which went into ensuring that the war diaries were of a good standard. Nick-D (talk) 10:45, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

OK if they have been accepted at FAC, will accept that. Jim Sweeney (talk)

That sounds more pompous then I meant. Jim Sweeney (talk) 10:53, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

They are obviously primary sources. However, they will have been written at the time, as the commanding officer saw the situation: he may not have been able to see the wider picture. Subsequent writing by historians who have been able to compare them with other sources and one war diary with that of the next unit should provide a more balanced synthesis. Peterkingiron (talk) 01:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there are limitations on using smaller units, like regimental diaries to describe the operations of divisions. But description of some complicated operations particularly in the reports often written by commanding officers which are appended to the diaries of divisions and sometimes brigades, can be helpful. Normally the diaries are written by adjutants or intelligence officers so the writing is quite high quality.--Rskp (talk) 01:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd suggest taking a read of WP:HISTRS and paying particular attention to the section on demonstrative versus illustrative writing. In particularly, I'd suggest only using war diaries when cited by scholarly accounts; and, only then to the extent that they're cited (ie: the section or action cited). I would strongly advise not using them for analysis or context. I would strongly advise using them only where cited in the broader historiography, and only then for material unlikely to be included in a scholarly monograph as lacking interest for the scholarly community, but of interest to the encyclopaedic reader. (ie: movement dates, march orders, times of contact and withdrawal, timing of bombardments, reliefs and changes in staff not of academic interest, etc.). Be cautious, don't interpret them, rely on other's interpretations, only use them for illustration. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Penumbra (band)

The page of the band 'Penumbra' on wikipedia, says that the band is active from 1996 till present. But I did some reasearch on some different information sources, and I came to the conclusion that the band has split-up in 2009, cause the only sourses that say Penumbra is still active, are wikipedia and sites based on wikipedia. Metalarchive says they've split-up, and their last.fm biography stops at 2009. Their Myspace has a comment about them being split-up. So I think it's pretty clear Penumbra isn't active anymore. I edited the wikipedia page saying "1996 - present" to "1996-2009". I would appreciate it when this edit gets confirmed, except if anyone thinks the band is still active, I don't know them personnaly, so I'm not 100% sure, but I'm like 90% sure they've split-up in 2009.

The Making of Modern Israel

The book The Making of Modern Israel by Leslie Stein has been cited in 1948 Palestinian exodus, and other hot-button pages, in support of contentious and novel assessments of the historical narrative. I have never before heard of the book or the author, and am struggling to ascertain its reliability. Although there are nearly 70,000 Google hits for the title, almost all are Amazon or other bookshop sites. Looking closely, I have found one critical review on Tikkun, and one, possibly supportive, behind a pay-wall at Social Science Research Network. I have found precisely 0 reviews at Google News archives. Although Stein is described on the Amazon website as a "Senior Research Fellow at Macquarie University", he is neither a historian nor a Middle East expert; his field of studies appears to be development, and in particular the Japanese economy. Given this, and in the apparent absence of any serious peer reviews of the book, can it be regarded as a reliable source for contentious statements? RolandR (talk) 10:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Here's some stuff I found in a 2 minute search. Not sure how you only came up with Tikkun.

• polity quotes blurbs from various reviews in some reliable sources.
• Israel Studies Review (can't read the actual review, but someone took the trouble to review the book)
• The Australian Jewish News

Then I stopped looking. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:18, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

As TDA notes, Google gives different results, depending not only on geography, but also on previous searches. I had seen the first site you quote, but blurbs are certainly no evidence of anything. I too can't actually read the ISR review. It's significant that the review in Australian Jewish News (which I had not found in my Google search) states "He is unashamedly pro-Israel, and at times some readers may feel he is too one-sided"; this does not inspire me with confidence in the book's reliability. RolandR (talk) 00:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I found these links: . Sometimes Google doesn't give us the best results first time around and different countries may have different issues searching for sources. Stein appears to be mentioned in a few notable places. Of course, that does not make Stein reliable in general. However, there is a tier system of reliability in my opinion and, in this case, Stein certainly meets the threshold for inclusion as representing a prominent view on the Arab-Israeli conflict. He should not be treated as an authoritative source on what actually happened, but his views are worthy of inclusion with the typical considerations we give partisan sources.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

How did you came to the conclusion that he is a partisan source?--Shrike (talk) 05:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Comments from reviews: "Stein’s work is in many ways a partisan account of the early years of Israel’s existence"; "While Stein takes pains to declare himself a dispassionate historian, he is clearly making an argument"; "He is unashamedly pro-Israel, and at times some readers may feel he is too one-sided"; "He remains cocooned in his avowedly unashamed sympathy for 'Israel's general plight'."; "Stein is a proud Zionist and never questions the murderous rampage of Zionist fighters against the British before Israel's birth". Thewre is barely a mention which does not note the author's bias, and the author himself states that he is "unashamedly sympathetic to Israel's general plight". This is clearly a partisan source, whether reliable or not. RolandR (talk) 11:18, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

This should placate the editor who opened this discussion

• The book is from a well-known publisher Polity that publishes scholarly texts.

• It is subject to a vetting process and peer review which makes it compliant with WP:RS. It is readily available and verifiable per WP:V.
• The author has published a number of scholarly texts
• The book has been listed as a “good read” on the Barnes & Noble website
• And here is the publisher’s Synopsis and exhaustive list of peer review and accolades (cut and pasted):
  • "Israel moves forward. Palestine stands still. Israel builds its future. Palestine guards its past. Stein's work provides a good introduction to this sad saga for the perplexed and the uninitiated." History Today "This volume could very well last as required reading about Israeli history for the next decade to come." Shofar: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Jewish Studies "Stein takes us on a fascinating tour, highlighting major and lesser events in the history of young Israel." Democracy and Security "Balanced, well researched and will substantially extend the knowledge of any student of Israeli history." Birmingham Jewish Recorder "Leslie Stein explains in this eloquent, highly readable and well-researched study how the Israeli state overcame the threat to its existence and emerged as the most feared military power in the Middle East ... Stein's account of the events leading up to the 1967 war is one of the most masterly and lucid to appear in years ... There is little doubt that his study will be viewed as an indispensible authority on one of the most intractable conflicts of our time." Tribune "This book can serve as a refresher course for more knowledgable readers and a sound introduction for novices." Hadassah Magazine "There is little left uncovered in this up-to-date and meticulously researched book. Anybody wanting a quick and easily understandable account of Israel's formative years would do well to read this refreshing, informative and concise telling." Canadian Jewish News "He offers a good historic overview of the respective period, his book is elegantly written, easy to read and his knowledge of the material is broad." H-Soz-u-Kult "Any reader of this book, however familiar he or she is with the history of this crucial period, is bound to learn something." Jerusalem Post "The deeper into the twenty-first century we get the less we know about the twentieth. This ignorance has so distorted even educated people's grasp of the conflict between Israel and its Palestinian and other Arab neighbours that public discussion of it routinely descends into half-bias, half drivel. Leslie Stein's elegant and learned book is, first of all, truthful, a rare enough quality in this research area. Beyond that, it is well written and argumentative in the sense that his topic requires. The years 1948-1967 constitute the crucible of discord. Without a clear understand of these two decades, which this volume so amply provides, the citizen is in the desert with only mirages to (mis)lead him or her." Martin Peretz, Editor-In-Chief of The New Republic "With great verve and a robust appreciation for the Zionist achievement, Leslie Stein accurately captures the drama, excitement and danger of the fledgling Jewish state's first two decades, thus putting its current tribulations in perspective. Daniel Pipes, Director of The Middle East Forum (Pennsylvania) and Taube/Diller distinguished visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University "The Making of Modern Israel is an invaluable contribution to our understanding of one of history's most extraordinary and inspiring stories. Leslie Stein is to be commended for authoring what is certain to become an indispensible resource for scholars, decision-makers, and students." Michael Oren, Senior Fellow at the Shalem Center, Jerusalem and author of Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East "Continuing his masterful previous history of Israel before statehood, Leslie Stein tells the complicated story of the state's first nineteen years in this highly readable, admirably concise and eminently fair-minded account. Threading his way deftly through controversial minefields with sure footing, Stein manages to convey the best up-to-date scholarship with unusual clarity. This book is strongly recommended for the general reader and as an excellent introductory text for the classroom." Alan Dowty, Emeritus Professor of University of Notre Dame and author of Israel/Palestine "Anyone who wants to find the way through the internal politics and external wars that accompanied Israel in its early and formative years can rely on Professor Stein. He gives it straight. This ought to become a standard work on the emergence of Israel to the place it holds on the international scene." David Pryce-Jones, former senior editor of National Review, former literary editor of the Financial Times and of the Spectator and author of The Closed Circle--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 07:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

The contentious information is :

Some historians have argued that if anyone was seeking the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, it was the Arabs who were seeking to ethnically cleanse the region of its Jewish population. They point toward the ever-increasing vitriolic rhetoric espoused by various Arab leaders and commanders in connection with their plans for the Jews of Palestine.

1. ^ Stein, Leslie, The Making of Modern Israel 1948-1967, Polity Press (Cambridge 2009), pp. 73-74

As mentionned here above, this is a wp:rs source.
But more, this is not totally speculative. It is true that the wording could be neutralized : the sentence : if anyone was seeking the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, it was the Arabs is pejorative. But the information that some historians argue (this part is important !) that Arab wanted to exterminate the Jews is true. Benny Morris in his last book 1948, Efraim Karsh in Palestine Betrayed, Zvi Elpeleg in his biography of the Mufti, Klaus-Michael Mallmann in Nazi Palestine argue this. To be perfectly NPoV, the arguments they use to justify this and the arguments given by others against this should be introduced too. Eg, Yoav Gelber wrote that it is speculative (and not scientific) to try to give the aims of the Arabs given we don't have access to Arab sources of the period ; Benny Morris support the idea that Islam is antisemite ; Karsh choses some quotes (and forget others) such as the fake Azzam one, ... 87.66.170.243 (talk) 10:10, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

• Regarding the author, Leslie Stein is an Associate Professor in the Department of Economics, Macquarie University. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:28, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

One of the reviews above says concerning Stein's book that "Stein estimates that the victorious Israelis expelled half of the 800,000 Palestinians displaced." This doesn't dovetail very well with the text that's being proposed based on this book. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 19:33, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

@Dailycare : on the contrary. It proves this guy is very neutral.

• about half of the Palestinian refugees of '48 were expelled (particularly during operations Nachshon, Dani, Hiram and Yoav). Morry writes this in his book 1948 and this explains why several historians compare or claim Israelis performed an ethnic cleansing.
• but Morris also claims (and several others given here above) that, would the Arabs have won, they would have done the same.

If Leslie Stein reports both these points of view, it is good for his reliability.

(It seems it is a tertiary source).

@RolandR : "This is clearly a partisan source, whether reliable or not."

He seems to look a little bit like Morris. He is one-sided as a person but reliable and more neutral in his profession. I underline I don't know this author but he seems worth reading even if disappointment could come after this reading. A good review by Daniel Pipes is of course a very bad point.

@all : another review : "On the whole, it is not easy to judge Stein’s “The Making of Modern Israel”. He offers a good historic overview of the respective period, his book is elegantly written, easy to read and his knowledge of the material is broad. The strong points of the book are to be found when he describes domestic developments and political decision makings. Yet the book is troublesome in the sense, that he is at times overtly Zionistic and thus in his judgments often very one sided and apologetic. Consequently he rejects findings of the so called New Historians like Avi Shlaim or Ilan Pappe right out of hand, with the partial exception of Benny Morris. But even the latter’s works are hardly incorporated when reaching critical conclusions. Thus the weakest point of the book is the almost total declining or ignoring of most of the findings of the New Historians."

91.180.49.186 (talk) 08:16, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

If Stein says that the Israelis expelled half of the refugees directly, then does Stein really say that it was really the Arabs who were seeking to ethnically cleanse the area? I think that's a key question. If Stein says both things, then it would be easy to agree with the reviews of Stein that say he's very partisan. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 21:05, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

• Stein doesn't really try to hide his partisan orientation. But I just want to call attention here to what he writes in his preface:

"Based mainly on secondary sources, this book is grounded in a wide study of the received literature, both in Hebrew and English. Hopefully its strength lies in a judicious synthesis of the published material yielding the reader a reliable and novel account of Israel's fateful and turbulent infancy. Although unashamedly sympathetic to Israel's general plight, I have not stinted in reporting the country's blemishes and occasional misdeeds."

Hmm. "Fateful"? "Occasional misdeeds"? So Stein has no training or academic credentials in history, right? And he's not done historical research himself to produce this book, i.e. his comments indicate he hasn't interviewed people who actually took part in the events he narrates, nor has he read, investigated, or compared primary source documents, either. What he did do was read the results of actual historical research and find a publisher for what he thinks is a "judicious synthesis" of what he read. So if any of us did exactly the same thing to produce our own "judicious synthesis" that was "unabashedly sympathetic" to the side we each prefer, how would that be different? And he's "unashamedly sympathetic" to the plight of Israel, but makes no mention of sympathy for the plight of Palestinians? Maybe that's because the conditions they live under are so much better than those Israelis live under? Unashamedly sympathetic, indeed.  – OhioStandard (talk) 14:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

thepeerage.com

I am wondering if thepeerage.com is ok to use as a source for basic biographical data i.e. birthdates, marriage dates etc. It looks SPS, but it seems to be pretty well sourced by reliable sources. I have tried to search for some of the sources it uses online, but to no avail. Betty Logan (talk) 22:07, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

No, I'd think not. Apart from other issues, it cites Misplaced Pages, and e-mails from private individuals, as sources: . AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:54, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

It is an acceptable source, but not strictly WP:RS, as some of its sources are not. Where its source is Burke or Complete peerage, it is quoting a WP:RS, and so is itself one. If it is quoting WP, we have a circular argument. If it is quoting provate information it is rather too close to WP:OR for comfort, unless the informant states precisely where his information came from. Thepeerage.com is a massive comilation, and is very frequently cited as a source in WP, but if it conflcts with a better source, the better one is to be preferred. Peterkingiron (talk) 00:30, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

If it quotes a reliable source such as Burke, we should use that. Of course we should actually read the source, not just copy the reference across! Cusop Dingle (talk) 08:18, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

It's a self-published site written by someone who does not appear to be a published expert on the topic. It does not qualify as a reliable source.   Will Beback  talk  08:25, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree. It isn't a reliable source in our terms. Andrew Dalby 09:48, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

As per Will Beback, as a self-published web site not by an established expert it is not a reliable source. Let me add, though, that the citation of a "reliable source such as Burke" is not a good metric. The Burke works are of variable reliability, depending on the edition and the time period being covered. Unlike Complete Peerage, these are not presented in a scholarly fashion, lacking footnotes or bibliographical information, and in earlier times served as little more than a credulous vehicle for the vanity of the families whose pedigrees were being presented. Experts in the field only use Burke's publications with extreme caution and only for material nearly contemporary with the publication date. The routine unqualified citation of Burke's volumes for earlier times tends to speak against the reliability of a web site, not for it. OR is not a concern. Sources are allowed to do OR, and reliable sources should do OR. It is just Misplaced Pages editors who are not to. The failure to cite precise source details speaks not to the propriety of the OR, but again to its reliability. Agricolae (talk) 20:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not going to search right now, but I think we've had this discussion before. And agreed it isn't a reliable source, which is the case. We shouldn't be using it. Dougweller (talk) 10:51, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

FYI: Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion#Template:Lundy. Note: this template simply adds an external link to thepeerage.com.   Will Beback  talk  21:45, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Is BET a reliable source?

Various artist's sales are based on confirmations by either VH1 or MTV, so I was wondering if BET, short for Black Entertainment Television, is regarded reliable as well? Thanks for your replies. Malcolmo (talk) 22:57, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Black Entertainment Television, "90 million homes ... launched 1980... mainstream rap and R&B music videos" can generally be considered similarly reliable for artist's sales. --GRuban (talk) 12:44, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't view BET as similarly reliable, especially for sales figures. For example, BET claims here that R. Kelly has sold 150 million records, in fact, R. Kelly's available certified sales from those music markets covering 90% of the global sales are only 50 million, which translates into some 70 million in actual sales. The 150 million claim is clearly an inflated figure for R. Kelly and that alone suggests that BET doesn't use enough resources to get their information correct. Therefore, it cannot be considered as reliable as MTV or VH1 for example, neither of which has a history of publishing such outrageously inflated sales figures.--Harout72 (talk) 01:37, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

It's a verifiable published source. I can't seem to download that compressed file from that other link you're pointing to, so I don't know what it is supposed to be. Can you summarize what it says and who it's published by? --GRuban (talk) 19:59, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

The figure within must be verifiable, and the 150 million as claimed by BET, doesn't agree with R. Kelly's available certified sales. The file that I've put together and uploaded are the certified sales of R. Kelly which I've retrieved from the certification-databases of the certifying bodies such as RIAA, BPI, Bundesverband Musikindustrie etc.. I just tried to view it, and it seems to work for me.--Harout72 (talk) 01:22, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Yes, the doc downloads for me now too. You've searched a number of databases for sales of multiple individual albums, added the numbers together, written the results in a Word doc, and uploaded it to a file sharing site. I'm afraid that is pretty clear Misplaced Pages:original research. It is not a routine, obvious, and correct calculation that anyone could be expected to trivially perform. Do we know that the databases are in each case correct? Do we know that you copied the numbers correctly? (There aren't one or two figures to add up, there are lots.) Do we know that you got all the albums? Did you miss any? Did you confuse any with any others? (In several cases, your own doc says you had to look it up under another performer's name... are you sure you got the right one each time and every time? Can we be sure you did?) I'm afraid that doc is not close to being a Misplaced Pages:reliable source. It may be the truth (or even The Truth!) or it may not; since it's not a trivial judgment, we go with with the reliable sources; in this case, that's Black Entertainment Television. --GRuban (talk) 19:43, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

The databases are of those associations which issue certifications in each market, yes they are correct. These are routine and trivial calculations at the List of best-selling music artists where Malcolmo intends to use BET as a source. Nothing is copied from the databases, the certification-awards are converted into figures by following the corresponding award-levels provided directly on the sites of the certifying bodies, criteria for RIAA, criteria for BPI, Bundesverband Musikindustie, the sources are listed on the uploaded doc.. Every Platinum/Gold/Silver award is converted, nothing is missed. And no, it's not an original research as the certifying bodies do provide the levels for certification-awards. All one has to do is follow the release date and apply the levels provided on the same sites. The document is not provided on here to pass as a reliable sources, the sources the certifications are taken from are reliable. WP:RS states: The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context; and BET in our case is not reliable. --Harout72 (talk) 21:19, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I think you're pretty clearly matching the results of your own research against that conducted by a national cable TV channel. If some other reliable source came up with a different number for R. Kelly's sales, we could cite them. Until then, though, BET seems to be what we have. --GRuban (talk) 21:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Time Mazazine claims 50 million records for R. Kelly which immediately agrees with his available certified sales. There should never be such a gap between artists' certified sales and their actual sales as it is with BET's claim.--Harout72 (talk) 04:18, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

That would be better, except it's from 2007, so can't be compared to the 2012 BET article. Kelly just might have sold a few records in the last 5 years. In fact, if he had sold 50 million by 2007, I'm even more wary of your figures from that Word doc that say he had still only sold 50 million by 2012.--GRuban (talk) 13:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

No, Times' article can't be compared to BET's, not because it's from 2007, but because BET is rather lousy when it comes to getting its facts right. R. Kelly's sales have been quite poor since 2007 (see R. Kelly discography), so a few millions on the top of the 50 million wouldn't make BET a better source and it most definitely doesn't make his available certified sales which I've put together on one sheet questionable. As I explained above, the Certified Sales are often less than the Actual Sales, because not all albums/singles/videos reach the required levels to be certified. Artists like R. Kelly whose popularity is mainly concentrated on the U.S. market, could not have sold 150 million records that easily. That figure is only possible when artists experience widespread popularity all over the world. BET could perhaps be an OKAY source when supporting statements about music events, but sales figures do take a lot of research and require careful calculations which I doubt BET has the right staff for.--Harout72 (talk) 02:12, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Looks like we need a third (or rather fourth) opinion. Anyone? --GRuban (talk) 13:44, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Anyone? Anyone? Anyone at all? Bueller? --GRuban (talk) 15:49, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm very skeptical of sourcing anything to basic cable infotainment channels, as opposed to legitimate news organizations. I am skeptical of their level of editorial control, reliability or reputation for fact checking, beyond doing just barely enough to avoid successful libel suits. I would not source things to E!, MTV, Spike, TruTV, BET...etc. That does not appear to be a universally-held view here, however. Fladrif (talk) 16:44, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Ugg boots and the Peoria Journal Star

Hi! There have been various claims that this should be brought here for discussion, and that makes a lot of sense. So:

The article in question is Davis, Jim (December 26, 20011) "Ugg kicking it in the U.S.", Peoria Journal Star . The author is a freelance writer who is a partner in a Chicago law firm. There are two claims from the article that are in dispute:

• "By 2010, all of the Australian manufacturers combined added up to only 5.9 percent of Deckers sales for Ugg boots alone."
• "In the case of Uggs, even some Australian manufacturers have been found guilty of making counterfeits."

The arguments in support of the source's reliability are primarily that the newspaper would do fact checking, and would be more careful for a freelancer. Arguing against it, the article is written in a tone that suggests that it may be advertorial, there is no additional support in other publications for the claim that Australian manufacturers have been found guilty of counterfeiting, sales figures for Australian manufacturers (which is largely a cottage industry) would be unavailable (and again, no additional support in other publications), and Deckers, whom the article is about, are known to use Chicago law firms to protect their IP online, although there are no substantiated claims that Deckers ever used the author's particular law firm.

Anyway, this has been kicking around for a while, and although consensus is currently against using it, the idea of bringing it here for neutral evaluation seems fair enough. The discussion is at Talk:Ugg boots#Another new source - hopefully I summarised the main points ok. - Bilby (talk) 01:53, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

While a newspaper does qualify as a reliable secondary sources, the listed statements make strong unsupported claims. If no other sources can be found that mention the same facts, while not quite a WP:REDFLAG, the statements seem more opinion than actual verifiable facts. Perhaps an acceptable compromise would be to quote them as an opinion piece ( Jim Davis wrote...) like in WP:NEWSBLOG--Luke Warmwater101 (talk) 04:45, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

I guess that would be a way forward. :) My only concern there is that it would seem to be providing authority to Jim Davies, in the sense that it would read like we're reporting Jim Davis' opinion on the basis that it carries some weight. I'm happier attributing claims to an individual, I think, when that individual has recognised expertise. But I guess that's also a matter of how you read the attribution. - 06:28, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Since you say Jim Davis "is a freelance writer who is a partner in a Chicago law firm," I will assume good faith. Thanks for doing the research and confirming that for us Bilby. There appears to be only one person named Jim Davis fitting that description (a partner at the McAndrew firm; Deckers is a client of a rival Chicago firm), and he specializes in patent and trademark law, which means that he has recognized expertise and his opinion does carry some weight. No conflict of interest, recognized expertise, what's not to like? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:40, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

The difficulty is that Davies is not an expert in sales of ugg boats in Australia, an given the lack of other sources, I can't see why we should regard him as having any specialised expertise on the matter. In regard to the second claim, accusing Australian manufacturers of being guilty of counterfeiting is a very strong claim, and I think warrants a very reliable source. I don't see a freelance writer with a possible COI in a small paper as being sufficiently reliable, without at least some other support to the claim. - Bilby (talk) 00:46, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

You've already established that there is no COI, since Davis is apparently a partner at McAndrew Held & Malloy, not the firm employed by Deckers. Mainstream fact-checked news organizations often cite their sources, but not in all cases and there isn't any mention of such a requirement in WP:NEWSORG. We already know about the Vaysman case, involving a manufacturer in Melbourne, Australia who was ordered by an Australian court to stop counterfeiting UGG brand boots, and that's been confirmed by several reliable sources published in Australia. Davis is in a position to monitor legal and trade publications that may not have an online presence and are not susceptible to Google searches by Misplaced Pages editors; and in my opinion, this is most likely where he got the disputed information. We have obtained a neutral opinion from Luke Warmwater101, a previously uninvolved editor. Unless there's a reversal of this opinion by previously uninvolved editors, let's accept it and move on. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 13:50, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

The source says "manufacturers", and you've shown one person who sold counterfeit boots (not even clearly a manufacturer). Simply, I don't believe that a puff piece by a lawyer in a small newspaper is enough of a reliable source to accuse multiple Australian manufacturers of counterfeiting, or to trust data that hasn't been published anywhere else and is unlikely to be available even to experts in the field. So far, the only person to believe it is sufficiently reliable to express as facts is you. This does suggest that you are in the minority.

In regard to Davis, it has never been shown that he doesn't work for Deckers, who employ at least one Chicago lawfirm, and who are particularly active in IT-related cases. The tone of the piece is so glowing about the company I'd be inclined to assume that he did have a COI, but we haven't shown that, either.

As an aside, as mentioned before, WP:NEWSORG doesn't guarantee that specific articles should be taken as reliable, but instead judged on a case-by-case basis.- Bilby (talk) 14:03, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

We have an opinion from a neutral third party and I don't care to watch everyone repeat all these arguments. WP:IDONTLIKEIT applies. No COI has been proven. Unless you can prove that Deckers is a client of the McAndrew firm, rather than a rival firm, you have only suspicion, innuendo and guilt by association based on geography. If that principle (or lack of principles) is applied across the board, no editor from Australia should be allowed to participate in the editing of this article. Unless there are more opinions from previously uninvolved editors who can be trusted to be neutral in this dispute, it's time to accept Luke's decision and move on. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:09, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

The writer in the news article makes a number of claims about sales figures, salary figures and employment numbers. Davis makes so many specific claims that the entirety are called into question. Where does he get his facts? We cannot determine, he says nothing about his sources. The implication is that he was fed figures by Ugg boots promoters, because the tone of the piece is "puff" promotion. As an information technology guy working in a law firm (not a partner in it!), Davis appears to have no expertise in the topic. I cannot recommend using any portion of the newspaper puff piece as a reliable source. Binksternet (talk) 17:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Bilby seems to have discovered evidence that Mr. Davis is an attorney in patents and trademarks, and a partner at the McAndrew law firm. I'm inclined to believe him. His area of (non-exclusive) practice appears to be IT related technology, according to his bio. But that doesn't disqualify him as an expert in patent and trademark law. If you have something negative about Deckers to add to the article from some other source, let's discuss it. (Personally, I believe the only negative material has always been described with tender, loving attention to detail in the section about the Uggs-N-Rugs case.) But is there anything negative about the company that hasn't already been described at tiresome length, and can be added? And if not, how is the accurate representation of positive facts by Davis fairly described as a "puff promotion"? The Journal Star is a mainstream, fact-checked news organization. The two of you appear to have an issue with the way Davis wrote his article. That doesn't undercut the reliability of the facts he presents. All these objections are addressed by WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 02:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

P&W, I cannot believe you are still editing Ugg boots. I cannot believe you have not been RfC'd and been given a lengthy topic ban. Dang.

Bilby's research appears to me to be a case of mistaken identity. IP specialist and Law Partner James L. Davis Jr went to U of I College of Law, not ISU. The partner of a law firm is rarely, if ever, inclined to write for a backwater newspaper, not with their time worth tons of money per hour but the news item paying peanuts. IF the partner in a law firm writes an article, he is never credited with just his high school in Peoria and his university without mentioning the law firm partnership. I beliieve that our Mr. Jim Davis is a right-wing political hack who is definitely NOT a partner at a Chicago law firm but rather a mere IT guy. I credit him with Daily Caller pieces such as this: "It's ironic that Obama is getting credit for bin Laden's death". The Daily Caller Davis is "a freelance writer and IT specialist working for a major Chicago law firm. He has been observing corrupt Chicago politicians (from a safe distance in the suburbs) for nearly half a century." "The suburbs" mentioned in this DC bio corresponds neatly with the PJ Star bio which says Davis lives in Glendale Heights, a suburb of ChiTown. There's a world of difference between an IP specialist partner and an IT specialist employee. The IT guy, who often sits around doing very little at more than one company I know, definitely can find the time to write articles for online opinion sites and for small newspapers. But IT guys are not experts in Ugg boots sales figures! Not a reliable source. Binksternet (talk) 04:32, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Just as a brief aside - I didn't identify Davis. That was made by another editor on the ugg boots talk page. If it is incorrect, then that just continues the mystery as to who it is, and reinforces that we have no idea as to whether or not he has any special expertise on the subject. - Bilby (talk) 04:39, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Binks: Thanks for your lovely observations and best wishes to you as well. Perhaps it was Wayne who identified Davis as the law partner at McAndrew. Here in America, attorneys might attend ISU at the undergraduate level and U of I for law school. I will add that I've done a little checking of my own by calling the Greer Burns & Crain law firm, the only firm in Chicago known to have Deckers among its clients. There's nobody named Jim Davis working there. Call 312-360-0080 and see for yourself. Any COI accusations against Davis are lies, motivated by bias. Regardless of that, I keep stressing that it's a mainstream, fact-checked news organization and although it's very clear that the two of you and your many Australian friends really, really do not like it, it's a reliable source and the only neutral, previously uninvolved editor who has bothered to comment agrees. If the fact checkers at the Peoria Journal Star were satisfied that the sales figures and counterfeiting accusations by Davis were reliable, then Misplaced Pages is also satisfied that they are reliable. The fact that Davis did not cite his own sources is unfortunate, but does not negate WP:NEWSORG. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 12:37, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Binksternet, I honestly think it's long past time for the article to head to arbitration. We've got Phoenix & Winslow, a persistent Deckers-line editor here who has SPA "ugg boots" accounts on half a dozen or more foreign language Wikipedias who seems intent on erasing one kind of meaning from Misplaced Pages (in all languages), is quite happy to ignore consensus for his own edits but will cling to the letter guidelines things like WP:NEWSORG introduce ridiculously dubious sources - I think everyone agrees that it is dubious, whether it qualifies as WP:NEWSORG or not - and who, while he will never acknowledge repeated defeats as he shops around the forums for people to agree with him, quite happily accepts one neutral editor whose post seems to contain strong reservations and tends toward neutrality as validation of his views. There's no arguing with someone who clearly is involved on half a dozen different language versions of Misplaced Pages for reasons other than informing people about every facet of reality. Like the entry on "Scientology", while the huge company intent on extreme search engine optimization stands to gain from a particular view being presented, there's no hope for the entry on ugg boots as a generic concept.Mandurahmike (talk) 13:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

The fine folks at ArbCom will kick it back downstairs because the problem's gravitational center can be identified as Phoenix and Winslow. They will say that arbitration is not needed, just the lesser correction of reining in P&W. It's high time for an RfC. Binksternet (talk) 22:59, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

'Inspire', magazine allegedly published by al-Quaeda in the Arab Peninsula

Thomas Joscelyn, who has bylines in The San Francisco Examiner and is also styled "Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense Democracies" and "Senior Editor, The Long War Journal", is named as the author of material about Inspire (magazine) on the website longwarjournal.com. His opinions and analysis there are variously cited in the Misplaced Pages Inspire article (e.g.: "According to Thomas Joscelyn, the chief purpose of Inspire is to spread AQAP's propaganda to the West.")

Thomas Hegghammer, senior research fellow at the Norwegian Defence Research Establishment, author of Jihad in Saudi Arabia (Cambridge 2010), al-Qaida in its own words (Harvard 2008) and The Meccan Rebellion (Amal 2011), and contributor of op-eds to e.g. The Guardian and the NYT, has an article about Inspire on the website jihadica.com, which is also numerously cited.

In light of Joscelyn and Hegghammer's credentials, are their articles in longwarjournal.com and jihadica.com reliable sources? Writegeist (talk) 10:13, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Joscelyn has been mentioned in the NYT as knowledgeable on the topic, and Hegghammer has been cited by the NYT as "But one noted scholar of jihadism, Thomas Hegghammer of the Norwegian Research and Defense Establishment, cautioned against drawing ... " as well as writing for the NYT himself. Yep - both (and especially Hegghammer) are noted in the field, and the later quite notably so. Hegghammer is mentioned in a great many books on the topic, and Joscelyn is cited in several books on the topic as expert. Cheers - they both meet WP standards. Collect (talk) 12:51, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I think you may have misunderstood the question. There was no doubt about Joscelyn and Hegghammer being notable (as I tried to make clear by referring to their credentials). I was not asking for confirmation of that. My concern was with the two blogs. TJ and/or TH in, say, The Guardian would clearly be RS for commentary within their specialist fields - I was not sure whether the same applied in the case of their publication by these two particular blogs. I now think the blogs are acceptable, so no additional input is needed unless someone has a counter-argument. Writegeist (talk) 21:54, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Blogs associated with experts are usable within their fields of expertise. I had thought that was clear. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:18, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

• I disagree. We have WP:SPS which allows us to be lenient with "experts," but we also have WP:REDFLAG, which states that exceptional claims must have multiple reliable sources backing them and that a source which makes an exceptional claim found in no other sources is therefore to be questioned. The article relies heavily on Hegghammer's and Joscelyn's writings, but if they weren't published in a reliable source, we can't source them for all kinds of REDFLAG claims based on their famous names alone. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 07:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

List of books that plagiarize from Misplaced Pages

Is there a subpage which lists books that include Misplaced Pages content without attribution? There have been several discussions in the past about publishers such as the Gyan Publishing House (e.g. 1, 2, 3), but people keep re-inserting their books as references. Once in every few months, I've to embark on a cleanup spree to remove these. Utcursch (talk) 17:37, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I think such a list, perhaps even modifying a bot as well, might be a good idea to detect cites to questionable sources. However it's done, though, we can't get carried away since some publishers existed before Misplaced Pages. Not all of Gyan's publications could have copied Misplaced Pages, for instance, so a rather detailed list would probably be needed. JFHJr (㊟) 08:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I've created a page at User:Utcursch/plagiarism from Misplaced Pages, linked from WP:PUS. utcursch | talk 06:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The problem with Gyan/Isha is a little different, while many of their recent publications are reproductions of WP content, quite a few of the earlier ones are reproductions of other author's/publishing house content. Sitush (I think) had picked up one "recent" book of theirs which was used as a source here but was actually copied from an out-of-copyright work from the UK. While some other publishers (notably Motilal Banarsidass) also republish out of copyright works, they retain the original info (author etc) and do not pass it of as new works. With Gyan there really is no way to tell which one is really a new work vs copied from out of copyright works, copied from copyrighted works, unattributed copy etc. —SpacemanSpiff 06:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Would a wider net, plagiarism by publisher/publication/source be best? I bet there are more, and I assume a single publication might rip off several other sources at a time. If there were a list or chart by plagiarist, it might help editors identify original sources and replace citations instead of simply removing. JFHJr (㊟) 06:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Add Kalpaz to the Gyan/Isha mix - they seem to be the same outfit. Some examples of Gyan weirdness (which includes seemingly plagiarising their own authors!):

• Compare [this with [this
• This with this

I have come across at least 100 example pairs, and some triplicates. Probably more, but I binned my list in utter disgust. Which is unfortunate given current developments but was based in part on having the support of User:Moonriddengirl regarding the issue. - Sitush (talk) 07:22, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

BTW, SpacemanSpiff is correct in thinking that I've found examples that pre-date WP but were copies from earlier (and still copyrighted) works. I'll see if I can find that darn list ... - Sitush (talk) 07:27, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone come across Int'l Business Publications? User:SummerPhD has removed many references to that publisher identified as Wiki "reprints." I thought that user might find this discussion interesting and left a note. JFHJr (㊟) 07:30, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Mirrors and forks includes both print and online sources, but is a list of publishers rather than pages/titles. To get on the list, websites and publishers don't have to be only mirrors and forks, but I wouldn't put a webpage on the list necessarily for a single instance. For instance, if the fan club of Joe Smith copies his bio but has no interest in any other Misplaced Pages content, I would note the copying on Joe Smith's talk page, but not at Mirrors and Forks. Gyan Publishing is on the list. Int'l Business Publications isn't, JFHJr, but I can't say that I've never encountered it. There are so many. :/ But this conversation seems relevant and the charge seems fair. --Moonriddengirl 12:25, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Thepeoplesvoice.org

Several articles are using the extremely anti-Semitic http://thepeoplesvoice.org as a reference. This site is basically the left-wing equivalent of Stormfront. It should not be confused with The People's Voice organization, whose name it stole. For an example of its unreliability, see this article, which is full of completely fabricated quotes.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghuvar5356 (talk • contribs)

Ignoring the rather contentious Israeli-Palestinian conflict (because there are some issues that shove the whole thing in the grey), that they misspelled clique in their own mission statement, and did not bother to look up that the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Mary (not Jesus), and that they engage in the same sensationalism they decry in other sources, such as claim that the recession and militarism are still a problem despite all empirical observation showing that is not the case, all lead me to think that they really don't have much in the way of fact-checking or editorial oversight, and seems more like a large blog.

An unsatisfactory number articles read like Alex Jones or Glenn Beck, just on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I could also argue that this article cites us, which prevents them from qualifying as a reliable source.

I am inclined to say that anything they cover of value would be covered by another site, even an independent one. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:21, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, looking through the use of thepeoplesvoice.org on this site, I'm mostly reaching an opposite conclusion as to its use:

• It is used in Craig Rosebraugh, to simply establish that he wrote a book. This is more or less equivilant to citing a press release, I guess it could stay.
• In Islamic gold dinar, it is used to link to a Russia Today video, in a section discussing Russia Today's claims as their claims. The site is not being used itself, but as a redirect.
• In Waziristan, it is used to source "Traditionally, local Waziri religious leaders have enlisted outsiders in their feuds, though it's not always that way, as local Waziris claim they are against the foreign militant presence there," but its simply reprinting this wordpress blog post. It is actually plagiarizing the article, so I removed it completely. There is a link for a Pakistani newspaper, which could be a reliable source, but the link is dead and the only copy of the page on Internet Archive fails to reveal what the article was, except that it was an opinion piece. I have failed to find any other sources, but I've only done a cursory glance over Google.
• In Paul Watson, an interview with Paul Watson is used to source the statement "In 1977, Watson was expelled from the Greenpeace's board of directors by a vote of 11 to 1." This is a rather non-contentious primary source.
• In Mordechai Vanunu, it is used to reprint a letter by Vanunu to the Nobel Peace Prize Committee. Seems reasonable to use.
• In Matthew Weigman, it is citing something originaly sourced to this apparently dead link, from a site which also carried the story "KID PLAYING VIDEO GAME GETS ATTACKED BY RAPIST DOG LMAO (VIDEO)", "BREAKING Footage of Michael Jackson ALIVE! Back from the dead! Jumping out of the same van his dead body had been in," and "UFO seen hovering over Chongqing, China – Witnesses and Onlookers Amazed." While it will not kill Misplaced Pages to use the article on thepeoplesvoice until another source is found (as it is otherwise extremely plain), another should be found.
• In The Falling Man, it is citing something that was originally sourced to Esquire. I've changed it to cite that instead.
• In Hannah Rosenthal, it was citing something for the Israeli The People's Voice, which is a different organization. I have removed this
• In Second Vermont Republic, it is being used as a primary source, since the article is by the founder of the Second Vermont Republic.
• In Propaganda in Iran, it is citing an interview with the subject of that section, William O. Beeman. It is a primary source.
• In Courting Condi, it was being used as refspam for a petition. I have removed it.
• In Washington Peace Center, it is in the further reading section, not as a reference. If you feel inclined, you could suggest on the talk page that it should be removed.

Ian.thomson (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Reprint a letter? I'm not happy about that. Dougweller (talk) 10:45, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I realize that some of the places where it's being cited aren't contentious, but we should still replace or remove it where possible (basically for everything except interviews between the subject and the site, like Propaganda in Iran). We shouldn't give the impression that it's an acceptable source. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:47, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

External Link Approval

Hello all,

I've come in contact with a source that I believe would be a tremendous addition to Misplaced Pages pages dedicated to countries. The project is called "International Futures" from the Pardee Center for International Futures at the University of Denver. International Futures is a long-term forecasting and global trend analysis project that has gained credibility and international notoriety in the policy community. It is the world's largest integrated and endogenous model for global forecasting, and publications from International Futures can be found without much effort.

I've posted a few external links to country pages, but it has been brought to my attention that I should start a conversation on this message board to seek consensus. I think that it's a tool that has a great deal of utility, and the forecasts add something new and interesting to country discussions. I believe it's a valuable addition, and I'd like to see these forecasts on more country pages. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

The web based version of the model can be found at http://www.ifs.du.edu/ifs/Ifs.aspx (Shredder2012 (talk) 20:16, 20 January 2012 (UTC))

Do you have any independent reliable sources that confirm what you are saying about the site? (That it "has gained credibility and international notoriety in the policy community") Siawase (talk) 21:52, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Their work has been sourced in some very credible projects that I've come across.

United Nations Development Programme's Human Development Reports - here's the latest http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/global/hdr2011/papers/HDRP_2011_08.pdf

The African Futures Project with the Institute for Security Studies - http://www.ifs.du.edu/assets/documents/Africa%20Futures%202050%20ISS%20Pardee%20IFs.pdf

The UN's Global Environmental Outlook - http://www.unep.org/geo/geo4.asp

The US Institute for Peace - http://www.usip.org/publications/vulnerability-intrastate-conflict

The US National Intelligence Council, Global Scenarios 2025 - http://www.dni.gov/nic/NIC_2025_global_scenarios.html

And their work is hosted by Google's Public Data Explorer (Although I've been told that this data is not as current as their website) http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=n4ff2muj8bh2a_

I apologize for being so vague in my first message. I appreciate that you wouldn't take my word for it! It's difficult to find independent sources that verify their work, but I think that some of their clients and projects may speak to the quality of their work. I've been in touch with International Futures to get a list of some of this recent work, so if there's any other questions regarding their work I can contact them easily. Thanks again, and I look forward to hearing from you! (Shredder2012 (talk) 23:46, 20 January 2012 (UTC))

• While I could not see any red flags concerning reliability I will have to interject that you are asking for input specifically concerning an "external link" at a reliable source noticeboard. The appropriate place for these discussions (external links) would be on the External links/Noticeboard. However, since you asked and there appears to be possible reliable source application, and so I don't have to chase this around, I will add my two cents.

I have only briefly looked at the futures model and I can not see any actual benefit, in response to your tremendous addition to Misplaced Pages pages dedicated to countries comment, it would have as to to being indiscriminately place on a multitude of articles.

• Unless there is some serious reason against use the actual best location to determine acceptance of use is on the individual article talk pages. If you do not find some particular opposition for use on Misplaced Pages and you feel there is relevance, inquiring there (talk pages) will likely give resolution and avoid deletions.

I did not look at your use in articles, however! if consensus is for use (or just as importantly not specifically against), I would advise to do so sparingly and use the link for the model concerning the country the article is about and not the main page link. For relevance actual use would probably be best when there is a section concerning something regarding the future in an article. Many articles already have somewhat of a problem with the number of external links (external link clutter) so even if the site is reliable, and there is relevance, you might still find opposition on some articles if you do just "indiscriminately" place the link. With no opposition as to reliability as a source, and where there is relevance for use, the link might be able to be used in an article as a source, or possibly used in a "See also" section.

If you start to inundate Misplaced Pages with the links you will more likely than not find opposition as I for one would be against it. If there is opposition, especially link deletion, as to relevance (or other reasons) in a particular article it would be best to leave it out unless you are active in contributions to the article and wish to pursue inclusion.

It might be a cool site with some neat forecasts for the future but these are "forecasts" of what "might" happen if no catastrophic events take place. In the real world such things as major earthquakes (among other things), overnight changes in the government, economic plunge, and other examples, would render, in my opinion, the "Scenario Analysis" section might be considered just a cool tool for trivia fun. Since the world (markets, future allocation of resources and many other examples) do depend on such future analysis, I can also see (my opinion at this point providing some negative reasoning I overlooked is not brought up) where the site could have encyclopedic relevance when used properly in particular articles. Otr500 (talk) 14:40, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Contactmusic.com on marital breakup

Should http://www.contactmusic.com/news/vanilla-ice-and-wife-split_1232480 be considered a reliable source for a breakup of Vanilla Ice and his wife? Someone claiming to represent Vanilla Ice says at Talk:Vanilla Ice#Factual Errors that there is no breakup. —teb728 t c 20:24, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Contactmusic, from what I have seen, rarely has exclusives, but rather reports on stories that have appeared in other media sources. From reading this article, it says "She tells the National Enquirer", so it appears this story originates with the National Enquirer which is a rather notorious tabloid. Not a source I would use in a BLP, especially for something contentious like this that has been contested. Siawase (talk) 23:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Help evaluating reliability of blogs

This is a bit of a chicken and egg situation between WP:RS and WP:N, so I'll take it over there if you guys think I should...

We have an article on Luna The Fashion Kitty. The article's creator is using the blogs Racked, Catster, and Fashionista as sources. Here are links to the specific article/posts: Racked 1 and Racked 2, Catster, and Fashionista. Any comments on the reliability of these sources would be appreciated. If you're a notability expert as well and feel like commenting on those aspects, it would be seriously appreciated (and save me a trip to WP:N/N). Livit⇑/_What? 20:50, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Just a quick look at their about pages, Fashionista has an editorial staff and is backed by a publishing company, so likely reliable. Catster is a mix of expert and community posts, so you would have to check if the specific author would be reliable under WP:SPS. Racked I can't really get a handle on. (their about page is here) Siawase (talk) 05:24, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the person who wrote the article. One of the sources is also a newspaper, if that helps (El Imparcial). Not sure if that's under consideration here or not but just wanted to point that out. I'd like to work on this article more but also don't want to put a lot more time into if it is going to be deleted. So I'm interested to hear the outcome of this discussion and open to specific feedback. Akritenbrink (talk)

Akritenbrink, I think you're OK here. Go ahead with improving the article. Nothing is guaranteed at Misplaced Pages, but I know I won't be nominating it for deletion based on the coverage shown here. Livit⇑/_What? 21:58, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Arts & Opinion; book review

May the arts/culture/politics magazine Arts & Opinion be used as an RS--for the specific purpose of mentioning a book review that is contained in the magazine?--Epeefleche (talk) 22:44, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why not. Ith has an editorial board and contributing authors, articles are not written by the editors, and it publishes on a regular schedule. I don't see anything in the couple articles that I browsed that make me nervous. I'd say go for it. Livit⇑/_What? 02:27, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. Its editorial people don't appear notable, they do write quite a lot of the articles, and the list of major past contributors includes (the first one I checked) a "reprint by permission" of an article that Noam Chomsky had actually published elsewhere. I'd gladly be persuaded that Arts & Opinion is independent and reliable, but I'm not persuaded at first glance.

Tell us what Misplaced Pages article this is about, and which book review. Andrew Dalby 12:39, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

If you look at Arts and Opinion's submission guidelines, they also solicit submissions of reviews rather than writing them in-house. Not very professional. This is because Epeefleche wants to use it to attest the notability of Onward Muslim Soldiers. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:45, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

• The wp article is about the book, which is the subject of the book review. The sentence in question in the wp article is "A 2008 review of the book in Arts & Opinion by Bassam Michael Madany describes the book as a "much needed guide to understanding the true nature of Islam, and its attitude to the rest of the world". The AfD by Ros on the article has already closed, as a "keep".

1. Bassam M. Madany (2008). "Bassam M. Madany reviews Robert Spencer's Onward Muslim Soldiers". Arts & Opinion. Vol. 7, no. 4. Retrieved January 17, 2012.

--Epeefleche (talk) 23:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

...a non-admin close which looks like it's about to be reopened for being improper. In any case, it's irrelevant; the publication's editorial policy is questionable and in particular its process for running reviews from whoever feels like submitting them disqualifies it as a reliable source. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:25, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• More responses here would be appreciated, as Epeefleche and another user are persisting in restoring the material even though there is no consensus that it is cited to a reliable source. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• I see that the review is by Bassam Michael Madany who "was the Arabic Broadcast minister of Back-to-God Hour, the radio ministry of the Christian Reformed Church, from 1958-1994. He is the author of The Bible and Islam: A Basic Guide to Sharing God’s Word with a Muslim". Here is his book for interest which appears to be about bringing "the Gospel to Muslims" and spreading "the liberating Word of God". I don't see why his review would be considered significant or the source reliable. It falls more into the "questionable" and "promotional in nature" areas of WP:RS I would have thought. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:44, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

• The instructions for submissions here state "PLEASE NOTE THAT WE ARE NON-PROFIT. WE DO NOT REMUNERATE." That sounds kind of like "we print whatever we can get people to send us for free" to me. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:14, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

• Hi Sarek. Are you suggesting that only publications that pay for opinion pieces submitted to them are RSs? I also note that sources may be considered reliable for statements as to the opinion of the author, while not for statements asserted as fact (e.g., with op eds and book reviews). If a book review opinion statement is not authoritative, as here, we attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact. The publication itself does appear to have a full dozen-person staff. --Epeefleche (talk) 02:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Current Science

The use of the science magazine Current Science is being disputed at Cold Fusion (Talk:Cold_fusion#Current_Science) for not being a RS.

The line in question:

• In December 1990 Professor Richard Oriani of Minnesota University reported excess heat.Current Science Article

This is obviously a reliably published science magazine with an editorial board. Perfect RS for the line. --POVbrigand (talk) 08:42, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

• It has a full editorial board and has been in print since 1932. It seems reliable enough for that statement. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:00, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

There is already an existing source to verify the statement. Current Science is a low grade low impact journal without peer review. There is no sign of quality control, the paper in question was accepted the very next day on being submitted; recieved 9th February 2008, accepted 10th February 2008. Current science is not a magazine, it claims to be a journal. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:34, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

This is a borderline case. A couple of points to consider: (i) The paper is what the journal calls a "general paper" (i.e., broad discussion "of interest to readers outside the field" rather than a research article or scientific correspondence. (ii) The journal's abysmal 0.78 impact factor speaks to its reputation in the relevant academic community. (iii) The fact that the paper was received on a Saturday (9 Feb 2008) and then accepted on Sunday (10 Feb 2008) is quite odd. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:05, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

A peer reviewed journal is a good source to verify this statement.

(i) the line for which it is used as verification is not "a new concept or cutting-edge research", but only a (secondary source) remark about previously claimed results by a researcher in the field. A "general paper" in a peer reviewed journal is a good as a "journalistic piece" in a science magazine.

(ii) Impact factors a greatly overrated. The closest thing I could find in the policies is "If the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses, generally it has been at least preliminarily vetted by one or more other scholars." I do not think that an impact factor can be directly translated to the reputability of a journal. Please also consider that this is a Indian journal, it is wrong to misinterpret "reputable journal" as "high impact factor journal", as it would push a "only big western/USA science journals count" notion. Furthermore, for the line that is verified this whole discussion about impact factor is irrelevant.

(iii) Well, we don't know what happened between the author of the article and the editor of the journal. Maybe for "general papers" a weekend is deemed enough time to review. To me the article reads like it could have been published in a science magazine as well. I don't know how long science magazines normally would take to proof read an article before publication. Be aware that your interpretation of this being "quite odd" is only one possible interpretation.

I do not think that, for this verification use, it is a borderline case. --POVbrigand (talk) 10:08, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Science magazines usaully have their own writers; it is NOT a science magazine, they don't even self-identify as a science magazine. There is no other possible interpretation of a review process that takes one day, it is most certainly out of the normal by any definition. It is only reliable for the opinion of the author, that is all. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:11, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

You also deleted another reviewed paper from Current Science . That paper was received 17 March 2006; revised accepted 18 August 2006. It is clear that Current Science has a normal peer reviewed process. --POVbrigand (talk) 11:39, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

No it is not clear. Please provide some sort of evidence to back it up thanks. Someone on an editorial board looking at a paper is not peer review. They have poor editorial control if any paper is accepted after one day, one day just isn't enough time to do the fact checking necessary. There is also zero evidence that they engage in peer review. edit: What I would posit that occurs is a standard spelling and grammatical check but nothing more by the looks of it. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

"Current Science is a multidisciplinary journal and therefore research and review papers of general significance that are written clearly and well organized will be given preference. All papers, solicited and unsolicited, will be first assessed by a Reviewing Editor. Papers found unsuitable in terms of the overall requirements of the journal will be returned to the authors. The others will be sent for detailed review. Authors of these papers will be notified of acceptance, need for revision or rejection of the paper. It may be noted that papers once rejected cannot be resubmitted. Illustrations and other materials to be reproduced from other publications must be properly credited; it is the authors’ responsibility to obtain permission for reproduc- tion of figures, tables, etc. from published sources (copies of letters of permission should be sent to the editor)." What is your next defense, that India is a country you don't like ?

Are you willfully ignorant? I specifically explained to you that someone on an editorial board looking at a paper is not peer review. Notice how the blurb you pasted does not mention peer review at all in any shape or form, ergo it does not have a normal peer review process. It is impossible for the process of submission, editorial review, finding a peer, the peer review and then a reply to the editor, subsequent corrections etc to take one day. Also at no point does it mention that the apparent "detailed review" will be conducted by a peer. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:58, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

What part of "The others will be sent for detailed review." is it that you can't understand ? --POVbrigand (talk) 14:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

• good source : Very relevant to that time frame. 84.106.26.81 (talk) 18:17, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

For completeness I copy my last comment from Talk:Cold_fusion#Current_Science here:

"Current Science" is listed on Science Citation Index as one of "over 3,700 of the world's leading scientific and technical journals across 100 disciplines.". You cherry picked one article to come to your conclusion "...some low grade non-peer reviewed journal". Current Science is one of 3769 scientific journals indexed in Science citation index, thus the journal is not "low grade". On the contrary, it is evidence of the journal's reliability.

The dean of the University of Colorado Boulder Libraries put "Current Science" on a list of "peer-reviewed open access journals".

I consulted WP:SCIRS, it reads: "This page does not address reliability in context of the social sciences, biographical detail, social or political impact or controversy, or related non-scientific issues, even when these are presented in the context of a natural science article.".

WP:SCIRS nevertheless had some interesting infos: "Journal articles come in many types, including: original research, reviews, expert summaries, news, editorials, advocacy pieces, speculation, book reviews, correspondence, biographies, and eulogies." According to Current Science they indeed have a long list of different article categories. Not all of those article categories go through peer review. The article in question is in the "General Article" category. Looking at several other "General Articles" it seems they have a much shorter review (1-2 weeks) in comparison to "Research Articles" where the review takes up several months.

So from this we can conclude that: 1) current science is on of 3769 leading scientific journals. 2) the "Research Articles" undergo peer review that takes up to several months 3) the "General Articles" mostly undergo a review that normally takes 1-2 weeks.

Maybe an uninvolved editor can comment on whether this is sufficient evidence that "Current Science" is a RS for the line as described at the start of this thread. Thanks --POVbrigand (talk) 08:09, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

For completeness I will restate the argument against it: The only evidence it engages in peer review is some random list POVbrigand came across (which is an unverifiable list, the individual may have accidentally though it was peer reviewed, their own website doesn't say they engage in peer review). One of the articles in question was reviewed by the editorial board for only one day before being accepted, this suggests it is not a rigorous journal with good editorial control. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:14, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Please also enlighten us why you didn't care to comment on the fact that Science Citation Index includes "Current Science" as one of over 3,700 of the world's leading scientific and technical journals across 100 disciplines. Why do you think your OR is better that the editors of the Science Citation Index ? --POVbrigand (talk) 21:28, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Tax professor citing Treasury for FairTax

Is this blog entry a reliable source for the statement, "the U.S. Treasury Department says a revenue neutral sales tax rate would be 64%, or 89% if high evasion is expected," in the FairTax article? Selery (talk) 18:26, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Paul Caron (the TaxProf) is not the source; Bruce Bartlett is the source, in an editorial in the Wall Street Journal. If the statement is used, it should be sourced to Bartlett's writing, not Caron's blog. (Note that I am not addressing the suitability of the statement or the reliability of Caron's blog, only how this statement should be cited.) Horologium (talk) 18:43, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

So we have a blog quoting an editorial citing a statement by the treasury department? I'd say no, from the combination of the editorial and the number of hops required. If you can track down the actual statement by the treasury department, and it does say that, without requiring interpretation, or if you can find a Wall Street Journal article - not editorial - that says the treasury department says that, I'd say OK. From our article on Bruce Bartlett, he seems to be a rather polarizing figure, so I'm leery of taking an editorial from him as strictly reliable for something so obviously controversial. --GRuban (talk) 20:55, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Findmypast.co.uk

Moneysuch8 (talk · contribs) is replacing book sources with links to the index of this site. Actual details are hidden behind a paywall. Any opinions on how good a source this is? --John (talk) 18:40, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Commercial genealogical site != generally accepted as a "reliable source." Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:53, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Such sites usually have their information sorted by subscribers, effectively turning it into a user-generated source. Even if they are sorted by professionals, it's kinda WP:OR to say "this record is indeed about the person this article is about." Howard Eliott Payne, though not the most popular name ever, is not uncommon eough that we can conclude its the same individual, especially when it contradicts prior sources (unless more sources are found showing the first sources were wrong). Ian.thomson (talk) 22:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry - nonsense. Users CAN NOT edit birth records for England and Wales. What are you talking about?!!?!? You're complete making that up - if you can log in, every record even has a scan from the birth register. Also, in regard to the original post - I replaced one book source as no editors are able to view that. Even if findmypast was all hidden behind a paywall, which you are incorrectly claiming, that doesn't make it any less useful than an autobiography of an artist very few libraries for example would ever have.

Moneysuch8 (talk) 22:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)}

And in regard to Howard Eliott Payne, it certainly is an uncommon enough name to use the service. There are few Howard Payne's born in England since 1970, and there is only one recorded for Liverpool whcih also has the middle name Elliot. An article from a website which likely sourced the information from Misplaced Pages itself isn't reliable.

Moneysuch8 (talk) 22:32, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

• It isn't nonsense. Libraries have books which users can check for free. Books are generally better sources as they go through a fact-checking process. --John (talk) 22:34, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

No, I was referring to the claim that anyone can edit the England and Wales birth records on findmypast.co.uk. That is complete nonsense. Re your comment - official records are "generally better sources" than any book. Moneysuch8 (talk) 22:38, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Moneysuch8, do not twist my words. I said "sorted," not "edited." Reread my original post in this thread.

Also, Google books keeps scans of most books. The insistance on using findmypast is starting to seem promotional... Ian.thomson (talk) 22:40, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Findmypast is partly behind a paywall. You can search for free, but if you want to see the primary records, you have to pay (). It's not clear how much editorial oversight the owners of the site have over the data. I'm curious why Moneysuch is so interested in adding links to this particular service to so many articles.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Isee Ian Thomson is now stalking my edits. Creepy. And is repeatedly claiming that he has some consensus to revert my edits, despite the only response to this question prior to him giving it any attention was in support of using findmypast as a source. Claims that I am affliated are verging on delusional. It's clearly a reliable source, and I don't believe it's right that you are stalking my edits with no conensus backing you up. You've even reverted the edit to Kunal Nayyar, despite the fact there is only one Kunal Nayyar born in the UK at any point. And is also citing this discussion to back himself up that you can't use the site as a reference which is totaly incorrect.

Moneysuch8 (talk) 22:45, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Accusations of stalking aren't appropriate in this forum. So, why are you focused exclusively on this website?--Bbb23 (talk) 22:49, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Because it's a great source for referencing birth details? And reverting every edit by someone, and using this discussions to pretend they have a consensus that you can't use findmypast as a reference is stalking. Is it acceptable for someone to revert all my edits, citing this discussion and claiming it is against using the reference - when that isn't correct and the first person to respond to it was in favour of it? Please answer me that.

Moneysuch8 (talk) 22:53, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Can you find any support for the source in this discussion except you? Can you find any dismissal of the points raised against the site, except your attempt to avoid the issues of WP:OR and user-generated sources? Again, you do not have proof that you have the records for the individuals in the articles. I'm simply removing instances of that source, and could only be considered stalking if adding a source to a site that profits from people visiting is all you are here for. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:06, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

• (cross-posted to User talk:Moneysuch8)I'm going to step in here (as an uninvolved admin) and put down my foot. Findmypast.co.uk is behind a paywall; they require registration and payment for every single record they find which matches the searcher's criteria. I can assume good faith up to a point, but the combative attitude exhibited by Moneysuch8 exhausts it. There is more than a whiff of promotion going on here, and it's going to stop until there is a consensus that it is an acceptable source. Moneysuch8, if you add another link to findmypast.co.uk before there is a consensus that it meets our sourcing guidelines, you will find yourself blocked. Horologium (talk) 02:16, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

That seems a good idea, Horologium.

Although there's no rule against linking to pay sites (if we know them to be reliable), it's much more helpful to Misplaced Pages readers to reference free sites (if we know them to be reliable) and books (which can be found in libraries). It's a very bad thing to remove other references and link instead to a pay site. Andrew Dalby 09:46, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

• As an aside to the reliability of this site - I have access to it and it records 'date registered' for a birth not 'date born'. As with Noel Redding born on 25 December (Christmas Day) is unlikley to registered until the next year. Registration and birth date are not the same things. It also records the place the birth was registered. This not always the place of birth particularly with those born in large cities which have a registration office covering several districts--Egghead06 (talk) 10:37, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

That's an important point. Moneysuch8 has been changing birth dates and places on the basis of this not-quite-relevant information. They may all need to be reverted. Andrew Dalby 12:40, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I think it's taken care of. I was using his contribs page to find additions of the site. While it's used elsewhere, the additions I could find did not appear to be replacing older information but were the first source used for some information. While it would be better that another source be found, I didn't have time for that, nor the resources. Do we have a tag for "need better source," and some bot that could slap all instances of findmypast? Ian.thomson (talk) 18:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Would seem this site is again being used as a reliable source following changes to Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell - this time by an anon ip user!.--Egghead06 (talk) 12:46, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

In the case of Mitch Mitchell, the information inserted disagrees with his Telegraph obituary (which says he was born in Ealing, not Greenwich). So I've edited, inserted what the Telegraph says, and cited it. We don't really know, I guess. Obituarists can make mistakes. But the Telegraph says born, not registered, so it is our normally-reliable source offering precisely the information we want, while findmypast is not. Andrew Dalby 15:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree: obviously the General Registry Office (GRO) of England and Wales is a very reliable source. Yours, Quis separabit? 19:46, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think its name has occurred in this discussion before, so I don't know whom you're disagreeing with! If the information on findmypast is copied from there (is that what you're saying?) then of course it's reliable, if we're sure the copying is correct. But my point remains: this isn't the information we want. Our text and infoboxes aim to say at what date and where someone was born, not at what date and where the birth was registered. The two things normally happen on different dates, and often in different towns. Andrew Dalby 10:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The information on findmypast is a digitisation of the information supplied in the GRO Index for births prior to 1984, information since 1984 is a direct copy of the information supplied by the GRO. But as noted above it only records the quarter (prior to 1984), month (since 1984), of registration and the registration district of the event. Keith D (talk) 00:43, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I think we've got to be weary of using primary sources this way. Just because you can find someone's name on a site that lists dates of birth doesn't mean it's actually the guy the article is about. When editors start delving into primary sources, without the guidance of a good secondary source, original mistakes start to creep into articles. I've seen this happen numerous times. Honest mistakes. It's not OK to assume that so-n-so has a 'rare' name and equate a birth/death record to him. We got to have some dicipline - if we can't find so-n-so's birthdate in solid sources, so be it. Also, I don't think it's a good idea to remove a solid free source and replace it with a commercial/paywall one for no reason - it's almost slimy.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:36, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Amazon.com

In this sentence, "In November 2009 Comedy Central released the DVD of the show Gabriel Iglesias: I'm Not Fat... I'm Fluffy.", is a link to Amazon.com here on the BLP Gabriel Iglesias, considered advertising?

At first I didn't see there were some article related DVD information. A problem is that I did note that there were at least 30 instances of prices, a link to "shop all departments", a couple of "add to cart" links, and an "add to cart with free shipping" link.

It appears to me it is an advertising page with the sole purpose of providing information on how to buy the DVD mentioned in the article. In fact one of the two video links at the top of the page actually states, Own the DVD today.

The link was added back with only the somewhat strange "cite" in the edit summary, so I deleted it again with an edit summary including "see talk" and explained my reasoning on the talk page. The editor re-added the link and left talk comments that included, "The fact that the website is a vendor does not mean that therefore, WP:NOTADVERTISING is being violated. WP:NOTADVERTISING is only violated when the sole purpose of a given publication is advertisement. If the date of release of that video is thought to require a cite (and this itself is questionable, since the credits of any media, which include year of creation, can be used as that media's source), and Amazon provides the year of release, then Amazon is a reliable source for that information."

In my opinion the fact that a link to Amazon being allowed or not being allowed, because the site is a vendor, has nothing to do with the fact that the reference link, to the site in question, is used to support a very short and trivial promotional sentence about a DVD being released. The fact that there is some information concerning the DVD is compromised because this information is underneath a large amount of sales information. Comedy Central is being stated as the subject that released the DVD so there should be a more reliable link concerning the DVD. Otr500 (talk) 03:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

NOTADVERTISING is entirely about the contents of our own articles, not about the contents of our sources. You may certainly cite an advertisement as a reliable source, under the same sorts of circumstances that you would cite a business's own website, press release, or other marketing materials. All advertisements and other marketing materials are considered self-published. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:56, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Costa Concordia disaster

I would be glad if you would read my request for comment at Talk:Costa Concordia disaster#Do these contents constitute original research? and add your input. Thank you. Teofilo talk 14:24, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Victoria Institute

Victoria Institute (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The early history of this institute is well-documented, particularly in Numbers' The Creationists. However after it falls out of the story of creationism in the 1920s, its history becomes very thinly documented. The only sources turned up to date have been a piece in Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith and a less than satisfactory Google books fragment from 'World Evangelical Fellowship, Evangelical review of theology, Volume 15, p. 191'. We now have a representative from VI claiming factual errors in claims from these pieces: (i) that the VI's library and study center were destroyed in WWII (PSCF) & (ii) that its journal, Faith and Thought, ceased-publication/merged (both sources). On the latter point they are able to offer this as evidence that it is still under publication.

My own suspicion that the VI's modern history lacks sufficient "sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content" (to use WP:N's phrasing) -- that any attempt to reconcile the sources would result in inevitable WP:Synthesis and that, due to the VI's reduced profile, we may lack sources with sufficiently intimate knowledge of the topic to be sufficiently reliable (i.e. they may be relying on hearsay and/or imperfect remembrance). If so, we may have to simply leave its modern history unsaid. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 17:39, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Gazeta Do Povo

I was wondering if someone familiar with Brazilian sites could tell me whether Gazeta Do Povo is reliable or not. Thanks.--Harout72 (talk) 18:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

It's a major newspaper. Normally reliable, I'd say. Andrew Dalby 18:12, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Ansumane Mane

Anyone have any thoughts on what is going on at this article? An editor has repeatedly removed two published sources for a YOB on the plain assumption that they "copy from Misplaced Pages". I'm sick and tired of this and an not going to edit war again, and this time, seek comment. – Connormah (talk) 21:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

The person died in 2000, his supposed birth year was introduced in Misplaced Pages in 2005, and the only "reliable sources" you can find for this date are from after 2005. So you have two possibilities: 1) the Misplaced Pages editor had a reliable source in 2005 which has now disappeared, 2) there was no such source, and the newer sources simply copied the date from Misplaced Pages. I do not believe I have to proof that 2) is true, nor even that it is more likely than 1). The mere reasonable possibility of 2) is enough not to accept the post-Misplaced Pages sources. And it is in fact highly suspicious that no source should exist from during the person's lifetime or from the time of his death, yet years later sources just happen to appear after a date appeared in Misplaced Pages. I don't have to mention how all the most "reliable" sources have been caught many times copying errors from Misplaced Pages, so in general it should not be admissible to source any previously added information using a source dating from after it was already in Misplaced Pages. Mewulwe (talk) 22:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

You forget the third option, the authors wrote and found out. Your WP:OR has no place on wiki, the sources are perfectly reliable. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:17, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Wrote what? Mewulwe (talk) 00:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Wrote to find out his DOB. What the hell did you think I meant. You may also wish to stop accusing BLP's of plagiarism. Darkness Shines (talk) 09:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Wrote whom? I didn't (and still don't) know what you meant, that's why I'm asking. And what BLPs? Where did I accuse a biography of plagiarism, and how is that even possible? You are not making much sense, and your tone is uncalled for. Mewulwe (talk) 13:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

How about wrote to his family? Or the the registrar for births and deaths? You are accusing the authors of the sources you keep edit warring out of the article of plagiarism, so stop it. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Any chance we can get some legitimate outside comment here? – Connormah (talk) 16:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

George C. Kohn and John Middleton are both published historians, authors of multiple books cited repeatedly in our articles; Thomson Gale and Facts on File are both reputable reference publishers. The fact that they confirm a fact that used to be in Misplaced Pages without a citation does not make them unreliable or the fact wrong. --GRuban (talk) 14:47, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Beside the point. No one disputes the sources are RS by the usual standards. But even the most reliable source is not to be blindly copied without using common sense. How can you know the fact is not wrong? We know RS have copied errors from Misplaced Pages before, and it is suspicious that the only sources for that date are from after it appeared in Misplaced Pages. As I said, I don't think I have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they copied the fact from Misplaced Pages; you would have to prove that they didn't, and you can't. If you disagree, tell me your estimation of the probability they copied from Misplaced Pages - surely it can't be zero - and then tell me your threshold of probability above which you would no longer use the source - is it only if it's 60% likely they copied from Misplaced Pages, or 90% or what? Mewulwe (talk) 16:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

On the main issue Mewulwe is right. Those two sources are what we would call "tertiary", and those two publishers have published bad books as well as good ones. We certainly shouldn't trust those books on a fact like this -- only slightly relevant to their ostensible subjects -- without knowing how the authors researched it. Very likely they did copy Misplaced Pages, though obviously we can hardly know it now.

The question is, what should we do? Perhaps there never will be a reliable source. I think what I would do is (a) to leave our question mark in the text and infobox, and (b) to add in a footnote the fact that these two books give a firm date and that they cite no source. Andrew Dalby 16:57, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Why do you think they're wrong? Misplaced Pages didn't invent the unreliable source, you know, if they had written the exact same thing they could equally likelily have gotten it from another unreliable source; why does it make such a big difference when we added the information to our article? In general, we don't ignore respected historians just because we wrote something first. If they had written a date that disagreed with what we had in our article, would we be having this discussion? If there were a specific reason to think they were wrong, that would be one thing, but I can't see treating anyone who happens to agree with us with greater suspicion just on that principle. --GRuban (talk) 16:56, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

How is it equally likely? Do you know of another unreliable source that had the same date in 2005? And do you really think they would equally likely copy from, say, some random person's private website as from Misplaced Pages? If their date disagreed, we would not have the discussion because they couldn't have copied it from Misplaced Pages then and there would be no specific reason to doubt it. Mewulwe (talk) 14:46, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

That's why I say Mewulwe is right "on the main issue". You're right when you say "they could equally likelily have gotten it from another unreliable source"; you're right, it doesn't matter which. These books are tertiary sources (which in general we deprecate), they do not say where they got this information, and we have no reason to suppose that they are reliable for this information. Andrew Dalby 11:26, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Everything in that chapter is sourced to the following.

"Brooks, George. Landlords and Strangers: Ecology, Society, and Trade in Western Africa, 1000–1630. Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1993. Chabal, Patrick. Amilcar Cabral: Revolutionary Leadership and People’s War. Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press, 1983. Forrest, Joshua. Lineages of State Fragility: Rural Civil Society in Guinea-Bissau. Athens: Ohio University Press, 2003. Koudawo, Fafali, and Peter K. Mendy, eds. Pluralisme Politique en Guine´e-Bissau: une transition en cours. Bissau, Guine´-Bissau: Instituto Nacional de Estudos e Pesquisa, 1996. Lobban, Richard A., and Peter K. Mendy. Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Guinea-Bissau, 3rd edition. Lanham, MD: The Scarecrow Press, 1994. Lopes, Carlos. From Liberation Struggle to Independent Statehood. London: Zed Books, 1987. Mendy, Peter K. ‘‘Portugal’s Civilizing Mission in Colonial Guinea-Bissau: Rhetoric and Reality.’’ The International Journal of African Historical Studies36, no. 1 (2003):35–58. Pe´lissier, Rene´. Naissance de la Guine´: Portugais et Africains en Senegambie, 1841–1936. Orgeval, France: Pe´lissier, 1989. Rodney, Walter. A History of the Upper Guinea Coast 1545 to 1800. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1970.Rudebeck, Lars. Guinea-Bissau: A Study of Political Mobilization. Uppsala, Sweden: Scandinavian Institute of African Studies, 1974. Rudebeck, Lars. On Democracy’s Sustainability: Transition in Guinea-Bissau. Gothenburg, Sweden: SidaStudies, 2001."

It would appear to me they have done their homework. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

So which of these was the source on Mané's date of birth? Andrew Dalby 14:08, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry? Do you honestly expect me to track down and search through those sources? My point was the book in question was obviously well researched. There is absolutely no reason to assume the authors used wiki as a source, given wiki is not mentioned in that chapters Bibliography. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

You have to look beyond the issue "Did they use wikipedia"? Please re-read what I have written and you'll see I haven't based my opinion on that -- because, of course, I don't know. On this board we're asked whether particular sources are reliable for citation on particular pages for particular items of information. I think Mewulwe is quite right to doubt whether these sources are reliable on Mané's date of birth, and that's why I suggest citing them in the footnote but not using them to insert a firm date in our text or infobox. That's it from me on this: hope I've been able to help. Andrew Dalby 15:17, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Rather than track down and go through all the sources, why not just contact the author and ask him which source he used and work from there, rather than just speculate? I can give that a try and see how it works out... Canadian Paul 15:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Very good idea. Andrew Dalby 16:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

If you do contact the authors, good for you, but as a rule, expecting us to personally contact the authors of all our sources is ridiculous. I yet haven't heard any reason for doubting two respected historians other than "they might have gotten it from us", without any evidence for. The "respected historians" part would seem to be a strong piece of evidence against. Without it, the argument seems to be that no work published since the launch of Misplaced Pages can ever be trusted again. I reject that wholeheartedly. --GRuban (talk) 16:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The evidence is simply that Misplaced Pages had the date first, and no previous source can be found, and there's plenty of precedent of otherwise reliable sources having copied from Misplaced Pages. Indeed no secondary source should be trusted for information that was in Misplaced Pages before. I can imagine you reject that because it makes sourcing harder in many cases, but it is better than risking circular "certification" of falsehoods. Mewulwe (talk) 16:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't suggest contacting authors as a standard procedure but, since there seemed to be no consensus, I thought that it might help. Per the evidence below, however, I think I can skip that in this case and we can maybe agree to just leave it as c. 1939 cited to the New York Times article? Canadian Paul 17:36, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

• Right, as of November 24, 2000 he was 61. Without knowing for sure which month he was born in it is reasonable to presume he was born 1939/1940. As we have two sources saying 1940 we can go with those. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:07, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

If he was 61 in 2000, 1940 is right out; it would be 1938 or 1939. Mewulwe (talk) 18:48, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

How do you figure that? 2000-61 = 1939. If he was born at the end of the year then 1940 is perfectly plausible. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:55, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

If he was born in 1940, he would only have turned 61 in 2001. If he was 61 in November 2000, he was born between November 1938 and November 1939. Mewulwe (talk) 19:51, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes. To be 61 on 24 November 2000 he'd have to have been born between 25 November 1938 and 24 November 1939. 1940 doesn't work. Andrew Dalby 20:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Bunt (community)

I need to know is wikipedia the fiefdom of User:Sitush he constantly removes citation on Bunt (community) page from people notable enough to have a wikipedia article like Edgar Thurston saying it is npov but keeps citation of a relatively unknown person called alagodi (which was added by him) who is not even an ethnographer but some christian priest.how can wikipedia allow this to happen.user sitush is too judgemental does not assume good faith when he reverts edits by other contributors please see his edits and comments on talk page.also i think he tries to own articles he edits.look people like me have a life outside so do most editors on wikipedia,so we cannot be on constant vigil and start edit wars.but sitush seems to have got all the time on earth to edit wikipedia.so probably he has assumed that he owns wikipedia.thank god he is not an administrator on wiki.please admins look into the matter.27.4.218.66 (talk) 03:08, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I have specifically said that Alagodi and Thurston are separate issues. I agree that Alagodi needs to be looked into, but as far as Thurston goes, well, I've had a year of dealing with stuff by him and know what passes and what does not. You are conflating, as I have explained to you previously. - Sitush (talk) 03:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

who the hell are you to discredit Edgar Thurston completely.i need to believe your views on thurston just because you edit wikipedia for a year.so that means you own wikipedia.newbies can't edit !.27.4.218.66 (talk) 03:20, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

This should be taken to WP:RSN. Where, I expect, short shrift will be made of it given that Thurston was a scientific racist whose views, while of historical interest, cannot in general be used to establish facts for a modern encyclopedia. Not to mention that what he called research wouldn't pass for it today in terms of sample size, sample selection, or measurement. That being said, I'm well-known in some circles as a member of Sitush's cabal, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

why doesn't Qwyrxian comment on sitush's addition of alagodi's views.is he reliable,no wait who the hell is alagodi ?.i haven't even heard of him.and what the hell is this bs thurston views though of historical importance cannot be part of modern encyclopedia but some random fellow like alagodi's can be.27.4.218.66 (talk) 03:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Because you haven't heard of them that makes them unreliable? As was suggested above, take it to WP:RSN. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 03:52, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

also thurston has been cited on wiki articles related to ethnicties like Iyer,Velama (caste),Paraiyar,Billava,Vadama,Koraga(which was ironically created by sitush) Vanniyar,Toda people,Kamma (caste) and the list goes on and on and on.now tell thurston can't be part of modern encyclopedia 27.4.218.66 (talk) 03:58, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Look, when I pointed you here it was because you appeared to want to complain about me - my methods etc. As others have said, you should take this to WP:RSN if your issue is merely the sourcing. - Sitush (talk) 04:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

issue is you sitush and your gang.not letting others edit.27.4.218.66 (talk) 04:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

No, the issue is that you want to use a source that violates our guideline on reliable sources (of course, that's my opinion, and I would accept a consensus at WP:RSN that goes in an opposite direction). I know nothing about Alagodi. I do know that Sitush has told you, rightly so, that these are two totally separate issues. If you think Alagodi is bad, take that to WP:RSN as well. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

thurston can't be cited only on the bunt page.other wiki pages can use him as a source? what logic.27.4.218.66 (talk) 04:14, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Thurston died in 1935. This is very out of date scholarship and shouldn't be cited as fact on any articles. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:37, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Paper with no indicated publisher

http://www.arts.monash.edu.au/mai/alexanderlugg.pdf

This academic paper says that it was double blind peer reviewed and presented at a conference. I can't tell if it was published by an academic journal, but it's still an RS, right? It is on the Monash University Faculty of Arts page. WhisperToMe (talk) 12:58, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

What do we know about the author? Was the paper written by an undergrad student? a PhD candidate? A faculty member? Blueboar (talk) 14:27, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The paper's author is Alexander Lugg. I'm going to check the university site to see who he is. The first page says "This paper was presented to the 17th Biennial Conference of the Asian Studies Association of Australia in Melbourne 1-3 July 2008. It has been peer reviewed via a double blind referee process and appears on the Conference Proceedings Website by the permission of the author who retains copyright. This paper may be downloaded for fair use under the Copyright Act (1954), its later amendments and other relevant legislation" WhisperToMe (talk) 14:29, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, what information is it intended to cite it for? --FormerIP (talk) 14:31, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Qian Zhijun. The author has a personal belief that the entertainer's career is limited, and he has an explanation of why in the paper. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:33, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, the staff directory at says: http://directory.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/staffsearch/staffsearch

• "Mr Alexander Lugg Org. Unit: School of Languages, Cultures and Linguistics, Faculty of Arts Email: Alexander(dot)Lugg(at)monash(dot)edu No telephone details recorded in the Monash Directory Service"

WhisperToMe (talk) 14:34, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Also it is a part of a larger event. http://arts.monash.edu.au/mai/asaa/proceedings.php says that it's the "Proceedings of the 17th Biennial Conference of the ASAA" WhisperToMe (talk) 14:36, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I think generally conference proceedings are treated like journal articles because they still have to be reviewed and accepted, provided it can be certain that the paper was actually presented at the conference. If it wasn't then I'd say it's not RS; the reliability of academic research comes from the peer review process. Betty Logan (talk) 14:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Above, the conference paper says "It has been peer reviewed via a double blind referee process and appears on the Conference Proceedings Website by the permission of the author who retains copyright." WhisperToMe (talk) 14:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

At the time of the conference (2008), the presenter was a student (a Ph.D. candidate): . "Double blind" is a weird (bordering on nonsensical) construction to use to describe a peer review process; perhaps the author simply meant that there were two referees, per the description of the proceedings? I'm a little concerned that the review was a straight yes/no decision—reviewers were not permitted to conditionally accept a submission, nor could authors revise their submission in response to reviewer feedback. This topic and conference are out of my area of academic experience, so I can't comment on how usual that sort of review is in that area; my fear would be that it would set a "not egregiously bad" minimum standard for papers.

Looking at the paper itself, it appears that the statement " future career prospects are limited" represents an inference or conclusion drawn by the paper's author, based on his own reasoning and opinion. It's a relatively small part of the overall paper, and I would be reluctant to believe that that particular statement was the subject of rigorous review. I would also hesitate to include it in our article unless the author has established a professional reputation for studies in this area beyond a single conference presentation. Finally, it seems a bit dubious for us to use a 2008 paper to describe the career prospects of a minor celebrity here in 2012. Such predictions are generally not required in a Misplaced Pages article. Not only can we provide a concise, neutral summary of the actor's film and television credits – thereby allowing our readers to reach their own conclusions about his career and prospects – but we now have four more years of hard information about the subject's career (including a 2010 feature film, which might seem to call into question the paper's glib conclusion). TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:34, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah, okay. In that case I'll leave the citation out. Thanks for your help! WhisperToMe (talk) 15:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know anything about this particular conference but (a) double-blind peer review is the standard form of peer review, indicating that the authors do not know the reviewers and vice versa, and (b) it would be very unusual in my experience for a conference to allow "revise and resubmit" decisions by reviewers, likely because of the time commitment necessary for such decisions (by reviewers and authors). So those particular issues don't seem like issues at all and that they've been raised at all is a bit troubling to me. ElKevbo (talk) 15:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

ElKevbo: Some details of the conference are located at http://www.conferenceworks.net.au/asaa/about.php and http://www.conferenceworks.net.au/asaa/about2.php WhisperToMe (talk) 15:56, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. It's too far outside of my own discipline and academic interests for me to give an accurate evaluation beyond a general "Yeah, it seems to be a legitimate academic conference." You really need someone with relevant disciplinary knowledge and experience to give you a good answer. ElKevbo (talk) 16:08, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Alrighty - Where do you think I should look? Do you know anybody on here who might be able to answer the question? WhisperToMe (talk) 16:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I think that you've got enough here to satisfy WP:N which is the purpose of this noticeboard. If you want to go beyond that to find expert help on the content of the article, maybe you could start by looking for relevant Wikiprojects and asking for help there. Surely we have a few that focus on Asia. ElKevbo (talk) 16:17, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

And as a general reminder: The next step is usually to consider WP:DUE; just because a source is reliable doesn't mean we should include it in an article. ElKevbo (talk) 16:18, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay. The paper mentions that Qian appears in some other videos that are not currently listed at the Qian Zhijun article. The paper says that one of them heavily promoted the company Google WhisperToMe (talk) 16:23, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• I work in the Australian humanities system. The paper is reliable. Australian humanities conferences regularly require resubmission, in this case, the following standards applied, 3rd reviewer on 2 reviewer conflict. The conference paper is reliable. The author, as an academic expert in Chinese memes, seems appropriate to make a judgement on the enduring nature of the Qian meme. Reliable for use. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:24, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Mike Royko columns on LaRouche

At Talk:LaRouche movement the following was cited as proving that Royko's columns concerning LaRouce are RS for the claims made in that article:

Have the standards regarding BLPs been strengthened with regard to opinion columns being cited as "fact"? Has RS been changed regarding use of opinion columns as fact when dealing with named individuals, and named small groups? Does the earlier discussion become stare decisis as apparently claimed  ? If we were to discuss the issue ab initio, what would the opinions here from other editors state? Are the Royko columns presented not "opinion columns" at all, but straight factual reportage? (Example follows)

To fully appreciate LaRouche and his followers, you have to have had dealings with them. Which I have. A few years ago, something that called itself Citizens for Chicago took a frenzied dislike to Jane Byrne and began selling posters of her that bordered on the pornographic. I became curious and looked into Citizens for Chicago. Its leader lied and lied, but I established that it was one of the many LaRouche front organizations. When I wrote a column exposing it, their response was to distribute handbills and posters claiming that I had undergone a sex change operation. That didn't bother me, since I had evidence to the contrary. But they somehow tracked down the address of my assistant, a female reporter. They managed to get into her high-rise building and find her apartment. And on the doorknob they left one of their handbills. On it was drawn a bull's-eye. And there was a message. "A warning," they said. "We will kill your cat." So let us hope that the primary is the last election this crowd wins. If not, no cat will be safe 2 WINNERS FROM THE TWILIGHT ZONE; Mike Royko. Chicago Tribune : Mar 20, 1986. pg. 3

Thanks. Collect (talk) 13:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Obviously reliable. Review Mike Royko. Hipocrite (talk) 15:30, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

As fact? As opinion? For BLP purposes? No one is saying Royko is not known - but are his columns to be accepted as reportage in the usual sense of the word? what? Collect (talk) 15:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

This is the reliable source noticeboard. You've asked if a source is reliable. It is. I'm sorry that's not the answer you were looking for. Hipocrite (talk) 16:30, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, unless you are discussing Royko's opinion of the LaRouchies. Royko was a columnist, not a reporter, and he was expected to have a point of view, rather than simply report the facts. LaRouche is still alive, and WP:BLP still governs his article, and using an opinion column to assert facts is not appropriate. Horologium (talk) 17:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Royko was, in addition to being an opinion columnist, an experienced journalist, biographer, and Pulitzer winner and his work is backed by a reliable, long-standing institution with experienced factcheckers. It seems reasonable to rely upon his work for statements of fact. Gamaliel (talk) 17:33, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Do you consider the excerpt posted above thus to be absolutely and simply a recitation of fact? Or might one reasonably assert Royko placed opinions therein quite notably? I would note Will is asserting that this discussion has reached a decision that Royko is a reliable source for "fact" about LaRouche utterly and that he "was not an opinion columnist". Collect (talk) 18:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Correction: I was referring to the last RSN thread on this exact same issue. Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 47#Mike Royko.   Will Beback  talk  19:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• Hermann's rendering of Ebert's colorful Windy City colleagues and friends-particularly legendary print journalists Mike Royko and Studs Terkel-are especially engaging.
  • Audio Reviews Publishers Weekly 258. 48 (Nov 28, 2011).
• It's still easy to get lost on Lower Wacker, a street under streets that still boasts the Billy Goat tavern, a favorite hangout for journalists of old (including Mike Royko), though I never did find the third level known as Lower Lower Wacker or the Lowest Wacker.
  • IF I ONLY HAD A BRAIN Fishman, Jane. Savannah Morning News 07 Aug 2011: F.1.
• The late Chicago journalist Mike Royko used to run and judge a rib-cooking fest at the end of summer in Grant Park.
  • Full Slab Epstein, Joseph. The Weekly Standard16. 12 (Dec 6, 2010): 5.
• City News was organized a century ago by several newspaper publishers and closed in 2005. It was known for rigorous training of young reporters, including Mike Royko and Seymour Hersh.

Six counties in 60 seconds Anonymous. Daily Herald 04 Sep 2009: 21.

• A dimly lit cheeseburger joint may not be everyone's choice, but fans of that dwindling medium known as the newspaper will love the old photos and the memorials to legendary journalists like Mike Royko.
  • Seeing Chicago by Taxi, With a Venetian Twist: Working, Russell. New York Times 30 Aug 2009: TR.8.
• I published a book about the great Chicago journalist Mike Royko, who was an authority on Chicago hot dogs.
  • WHAT'S IT TAKE TO GET A GOOD CHICAGO DOG? Moe, Doug. Wisconsin State Journal 24 Dec 2008: A.2.
• For Driscoll, 51, Royko remains the archetype of the acerbic, hypercritical "Western" journalist. "I grew up reading Royko and how he was always giving Mayor Daley a hard time," Driscoll said. "That, to me, was the way journalism was supposed to be. That was it at its best."
  • Royko fan fights for free Iraqi press Hood, Joel. Chicago Tribune 21 Feb 2008: 2SSW.1.

And so on. I could post a hundred more citation in which Royko is called either a "journalist" or a "legendary journalist".   Will Beback  talk  18:58, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Nice - but "opinion columnists" are indeed "journalists." 1.The activity or profession of writing for newspapers or magazines or of broadcasting news on radio or television. covers a very broad range. Royko did assuredly write for newspapers, and wrote a syndicated column labeled "commentary" by others. A journalist contributing regularly to a newspaper or magazine is a "columnist". Being a "journalist" does not make the person's opinions into "fact". Collect (talk) 19:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC) Mike Riyko, Opinion columnist. Etc. Collect (talk) 19:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Nice try, but no cigar. Royko is indeed reporting facts here, not opinion. As a very experienced investigative journalist, he is a reliable source for the facts he reports. In fact, I'd go so far as to label him one of the most reliable sources there is for the seamy side of Chicago politics. Personally, I didn't care for Royko, his opinions and his politics, but I trust his journalism. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:06, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The Royko material should stay. He's a perfectly reliable source for the statements made. Binksternet (talk) 20:58, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

New York International Independent Film and Video Festival

Is this a "major" film festival such that winning an award at it makes a film notable per WP:NFILM #3? I argue that it is not; not only does the guideline name awards like an "Academy Award, or Palme D'or, Camera D'or, or Grand Prix from Cannes...major festivals such as Venice or Berlin" as the standard, of which this festival falls far short, NYIIFVF is particularly questionable because it's generally acknowledged as a scam. Multiple independent sources describe exorbitant entry fees, acceptance of submissions based on what filmmakers can pay rather than on quality of the film, large number of categories such that nearly every entry (again, entries are not accepted based on quality) wins an "award," and in general a festival that caters to people who can't get their films screened at any reputable festival. In short, I argue that NYIIFVF would probably not fulfill the criteria of a "major" award anyway, but the fact that you are essentially buying an award rules it out completely. The other user argues that it is "major" because it has its own distribution company and magazine and, according to its promotional material, has screened films of notable people, and also that it is notable and therefore reliable. See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Confrontation at Concordia. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:10, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

• Hi. Do you have any reliable sources to verify what you're mentioning? Why I ask is because I see sites like the New York Mayor's office which list this festival. That is enough to qualify on our NFILM benchmark, which is just supposed to be a secondary qualifying benchmark. Academy awards et al are mentioned in the guidelines just to clarify that they should not even be questioned. Wifione 16:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Among others, IndieWire (the independent film industry magazine), the Village Voice (I can get it in LexisNexis - it's from November 1997 and called "Fest and Loose"), and the Las Vegas Mercury. Can you clarify what you mean by "secondary qualifying benchmark"? I ask because users at this discussion are responding to my pointing out that it lacks reliable sources by saying that it won an award so it doesn't need to have reliable sources - which is questionable to begin with, since, as I said, this is not a "major" festival like those described in the guideline and also is essentially a pay-for-your-award service. It's "an expensive talent showcase, where artists are asked to pay for the opportunity to show their work." We don't accept Xlibris, Lulu, and other print-on-demand books as sources, and this looks like a similar deal. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:13, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
    • None of the sources you mention confirms that the festival allows its awards to be bought. It may not be the best festival, but is it the worst? Do correct me if I've missed something in the citations. A 'secondary qualifying benchmark' means that if a film has won a film award, there would be in general other, multiple, reliable sources for the film. So, having won an award is simply a saving grace during an AfD. But in repeat AfDs, if there have been no other reliable sources added still, then there's quite some weight to the argument to delete the article. Wifione 19:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
      • Ah, perhaps I wasn't clear that it was a figure of speech. If entries are accepted solely on the basis of what the entrant can pay (per sources), and if "awards" are almost guaranteed to any entry because of the large number of awards available relative to the number of entries (also per sources), that's pretty close to putting down money for an award; I don't think the award can literally be bought. I don't think the festival would have to be "the worst" in order to disqualify it as a major award - just as the perfect is the enemy of the good, so too is the worst the enemy of the bad, I suppose. Again, take a printed source as a comparison: Edwin Mellen Press isn't as bad as Xlibris or Lulu, which are literal print-on-demand services, but its reputation in the relevant circles is as a vanity press with no editing/fact- or quality-checking where people take their books if they can't get them published with a real publisher. Re: award as sole source for notability, I wish some of the commenters at the AfD (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Confrontation at Concordia) thought the way you do! –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:31, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
        • I understand what you're mentioning. Unfortunately, till the time you provide references that confirm awards can be bought, this festival should qualify on our awards guidelines as we've deliberately not set any standard on this issue. Re: the secondary benchmark, the footnote in the guideline by the side of the awards sub-point already contains what I mentioned. You could perhaps ask them to see the footnote and question why there are no other multiple reviews of the movie despite it having won an award... Do you think that would help? Wifione 22:58, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
          • I've already provided references that amply demonstrate that this is not a reputable festival, and the guideline as it currently exists doesn't indicate that it would do even if it weren't pay-to-play. This is not Cannes or Venice... as for the folks at the AfD, some haven't even responded to my comments about the festival so I don't know what good it would do. I'm not one to vote at an AfD and then abandon it to the four winds but everyone's different. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Can you point out which one of the sources you cite say you "buying an award", or something close to it? I don't see it. Jeff Song (talk) 01:26, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

This piece in Digital Producer (second page) is the most direct about it, but source after source states it's pay-to-play, that it's not a real festival, and that most of the films are rubbish (, Village Voice, , , ) and the founder is explicit about the fact that they don't care about the quality of the films. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:38, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

• In addition to all the other negative comments about the NYIIFVF that have come up in this discussion, I note that the festival is specifically singled out by the Internet Movie Database as a festival for which screenings do not qualify a film for listing in the database. It is not even close to being a "major" festival within the meaning of WP:NFILM #3. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I'll disagree. Your link provides evidence only to the extent that films are accepted for screening in the NYIIFVF film festival on a mass basis. This does not provide evidence that awards can be bought. Till the time there's a clear, valid, reliable link that proves that awards can be bought, NYIIFVF qualifies easily on the standard we've included in NFILMS. The standard was not meant to restrict awards to major film festivals. The standard is a saving standard; in other words, in case a movie has won an award at a film festival, there is a good probability that reliable sources would exist that have reviewed/covered the movie. We're not talking about screening of films (and those are a dime a dozen in NYIIFVF); it's about getting the award. Wifione 05:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• An alternative - on the talk page of NFILMS, provide reference to this discussion, list out all the sources and request that NYIIFVF be explicitly excluded from the awards notability criteria. Let's go by consensus there. Do you think this suggestion works for you? Wifione 05:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm referring specifically to the quote in Digital Producer which says "I mean surely the prizes can't be bought (throw in that buzzer one more time) WRONG! I started to watch a film and literally had to leave, it was so bad and -- you guessed it -- it won an award." But yes, bringing it to a more specific place could be a good idea, although the films wikiproject might be better than NFILMS as being more watched. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:55, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
    • That quoted bit is perfectly clear to the reader who is expected to understand sarcasm. Combined with the other negative sources, I would have to say that the festival cannot be used to help Misplaced Pages recognize a film as notable enough for an article about it. Binksternet (talk) 21:02, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

External Link

Hello, I have a conflict of interest in placing an external link on a Wikipage because I am the webmaster for the website. The subject Wikipage is dementia I write articles and give advise on behalf of dementia care workers and associates on the subject of dementia. Many of the articles are written by dementia care workers and then put onto the site by myself. We have very good knowledge of dementia with hands on experience from people who have worked with sufferers of dementia and other related disease for many years. I believe that we can add great value to Wiki with the website that we want to provide the link to. The domain name is www.dementia.co.uk I believe that we can provide information on the subject of dementia as good as any other website that has been given an external link on the dementia page. I have raised the issue on the dementia talk page but have been asked to raise the subject here. Thankyou for reading John cordingly (talk) 17:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

This looks more like a case for Misplaced Pages:External links/Noticeboard which deals specifically with links. Siawase (talk) 23:47, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks John cordingly (talk) 11:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Falklands

Is this http://www.everyculture.com/Cr-Ga/Falkland-Islands.html RS for the claim that there is evidacnce of Indian settlement on the falklands as it does not seem to me to be anything other then 'just some website'.Slatersteven (talk) 17:34, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Likely a major copyvio from somewhere - the exact same language (the part I used was "The terrain is mainly hilly to mountainous grassland. Shrubs abound, but there are no native trees") is found on two other sites. (try it on Google if you wish) Source is likely Ember's "Countries and their Cultures, Vol 1". Not RS as a result. Collect (talk) 18:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Is Hindawi a RS publisher for this content?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Not reliable for proposed use, per WP:MEDRS

• I am closing this as the discussion is moving towards the exclusion of RS/N editors, and the discussion is avoiding answering of the RS/N question, due to a general discussion occurring. As a long standing RS/N editor I have recently closed a number of disruptive discussions of a similar kind.
• Editors are reminded that if they wish to see outside opinions from RS/N editors, then they should not continue conversations from other forums on RS/N
• User Granateple is reminded that contributing too much to a discussion damages the quality of that discussion
• Editors reminded that RS/N is for discussing specific issues of reliability, not general discussions of reliability
• Editors reminded to follow RS/N procedure as listed at the top of the page—this includes the discussion being focused primarily on the specific instance for reliability, not a general discussion of reliability
• Editors are strongly reminded of WP:IDHT and the disruptive nature of multiple contributions in an IDHT mode
• Hindawi published journals have a presumption against them, due to their academic publishing model, but specific requests for RS/N investigation are required before a journal, article, use on an encyclopaedia article, and fact can be ruled out
• Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism ISSN 2090-0732 has as presumption against its reliability for medical articles
• Anderson and Taylor (2011) "The Metabolic Syndrome and Mind-Body Therapies: A Systematic Review" in Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism (2090-0732) is not reliable for claiming that Transcendental Meditation has "demonstrated blood pressure-lowering effects similar to primary antihypertensive medications" as:
  1. The publisher is not a fit place to make medical claims relating to blood pressure (as opposed to nursing), for the reasons outlined in discussion: "(ii) by a commercial publisher that is on a watchlist for possible predatory vanity publication by virtue of producing a large number of journals without an adequate editorial staff to undertake the review that it claims to be doing, and it noted for spam solicitation of content; (iv) that is not listed on MEDLINE; (v) is not listed on ICMJE; (vi) is not listed on CSE; and (vii) concerns an article outside the scope of the publication"
  2. The publication is not reliable to make the claim that Transcendental Meditation has "demonstrated blood pressure-lowering effects similar to primary antihypertensive medications" as the review is a review of "A systematic review was conducted to critically evaluate the data from clinical trials examining the efficacy of mind-body therapies as supportive care modalities for management of the metabolic syndrome.", the claim arises from only one study (Paul-Labrador), and thus is a republication of a single study result and not a reviewed finding. Republication of a primary source's claim does not make that primary source secondary.
  3. For valid potential claims arising from this article, within the scope of its claims, see the conclusion, "In light of the important role … this paper highlights the need for such trials of mind-body therapies with regard to the management of the metabolic syndrome, given the relative absence of such studies in the literature, as well as the mechanisms of action involved in mind-body therapies." These valid nursing medical claims contained in an appropriately published review article are a long way from the extraordinary claim derived from the Paul-Labrador study, that has not been appropriately medically reviewed alongside sufficient similar studies to make any such claim. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:53, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I've moved a general comment from here to dealing with a specific source and publisher, Hindawi: Is this a reliable source for this content?:

A 2011 independent systematic review reports the same findings and says that randomized controlled trials on TM have "demonstrated blood pressure-lowering effects similar to primary antihypertensive medications". This review said that research on TM "supports the potential clinical effectiveness of mind-body practices in improving indices of the metabolic syndrome".

• Article:

• Article discussing Hindawi:

• Discussion from medical librarians

• Hindawi: current impact factor...2.35

There is an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Open_Access_Journals_and_related_issues as this involves a specific issue with WP:MEDRS. Attempting to "move" the discussion here looks like forum shopping. Fladrif (talk) 18:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

There was a suggestion to move that discussion here. As well I am asking for input specifically on one source rather than a more general discussion about open access Thanks.(olive (talk) 18:50, 24 January 2012 (UTC))

That source and a number of others is already under discussion, and your move comes after the initial comments at Project Medicine were unfavorable to your advocacy of those sources. The comment you refer to was that the issues created by "open access" journals are not confined to medicine alone, but the issue at hand is whether the particular open access journals being cited as sources meet the requirements of WP:MEDRS Fladrif (talk) 18:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

It was my suggestion to move it here, as it was not a medicine specific question. Forum shopping doesn't enter into it. The question raised there was too general for that venue. To reformulate: "Are pay-to-publish open access journals intrinsically unreliable sources like vanity press books?" This is a question that to my mind is worthy of some guidance in wp:RS. Further, I think that guidance should be nuanced, and should also solicit input from wp:WikiProject Academic Journals. LeadSongDog come howl! 19:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

edit conflict

Fladrif. I am, as I said, referring to a specific source rather than a general discussion and this is the proper NB for that as was pointed out by an uninvolved editor in the discussion you are referring to. Further, I am not interested in your assumptions about my motives. If editors here feel this discussion is of no use they don't have to comment. I note that your post not only did not refer to a single source but attempted to trash all of the sources in one article which as far as I can tell isn't the way get neutral comments or to deal with content and sources in a specific way. I very clearly pointed editors here to the more general discussion.(added link later, apology). I also posted on the TMR article talk page to notify editors working on this of my post. Did you do the same? (olive (talk) 19:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC))

I find your arguments convincing, User:olive. And Fladrif: There is no shame in admitting you are on thin ice regarding Hindawi Publishing Corporation. Granateple (talk) 19:32, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I think we have to be careful in trying to generalize a discussion of a publisher with all the journals that they publish. For example, Elsevier is generally reliable as a publisher, but it publishes journals that would not be generally considered reliable for general medical information (such as Homeopathy). If there is specific questions about specific journals, they should be discussed separately. I think a general discussion about pay-for-publishing is an important discussion, but any discussion about the underlying specifics should probably be discussed separately so that we don't muddle the discussion. Yobol (talk) 19:40, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes. I agree. This post is in reference to a specific source rather than being a general discussion.(olive (talk) 19:49, 24 January 2012 (UTC))

Good point, Yobol Granateple (talk) 19:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Yobol is spot-on with that observation. Each journal should be considered on its own practices, publishing houses are rarely in a position to trump the editorial decisions on a month-by-month basis even if they do have some sway over the selection of editors-in-chief. Indeed we would not want them to have that kind of control. One strong indicator for biomedical journals is whether or not they appear on the list of Journals Following the Uniform Requirements for Manuscripts. The Uniform Requirements is a set of best practices collaboratively crafted over many years by the ICMJE. Neither the Journal of Nutrion and Metabolism nor Homeopathy are on that list. LeadSongDog come howl! 20:12, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Further, the Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism which is the particular Hindawi publication in question, not indexed for MEDLINE and the particular article at issue "The Metabolic Syndrome and mind-body therapies: A systemic review" would seem to be either outside or at most on the periphery of the scope of the publication, raising a red flag per WP:MEDSCI, and has been cited exactly once. Fladrif (talk) 20:30, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

”Nutrition and Metabolism” (academic journal): Not currently indexed for MEDLINE, but all of their articles are listed on PubMed.

ICMJE lists “Acupuncture in Medicine” and “Pharmacognosy” (herbs), but not Nature medicine, Cell, or Journal of Clinical Oncology.

Sometimes we eat (Nutrition) and something happens (Metabolism). Granateple (talk) 20:56, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:MEDRS there are multiple ways of judging RS sources so while an indicator might be inclusive it cannot be exclusive as long a there are multiple ways of identifying reliable sources.

"The Metabolic Syndrome and mind-body therapies: A systemic review" is on the periphery of "Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism"? I don't see that reasoning.(olive (talk) 21:02, 24 January 2012 (UTC))

MEDLINE indexing is a very low bar to clear for sourcing on medical articles. That the title has the word "metabolic" in relation to the syndrome doesn't make clearly related. The journal website says their content is "focused on the integration of nutrition, exercise physiology, clinical investigations, and molecular and cellular biochemistry of metabolism"; outcomes research on "mind-body" techniques seems somewhat outside that limited scope, as it doesn't have anything to do with nutrition or biochemistry/metabolism. These issues, plus the pay-to-publish problems, seems to make this a less than ideal source. Yobol (talk) 22:37, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Stress can cause high blood pressure. Some people find meditation relaxing. What’s the big deal?? Granateple (talk) 21:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

This is not the place to discuss the topic in general, this is a place to discuss whether the source is reliable. Please refrain from further distracting the discussion with off topic discussion. Yobol (talk) 22:37, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Clearly I should have been more explicit. We were not discussing long-established journals (such as Cell, Nature, etc.) which are so prominent that they are widely known to most readers. We are discussing new-minted, relatively low-circulation journals known to few. Indeed, the ICMJE list could reasonably be put alongside the list of Member's Journals of the Council of Science Editors as being presumptively credible journals. That list does include Cell, Nature, and Journal of Clinical Oncology. The also has some useful linkages. LeadSongDog come howl! 23:26, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your clarification regarding the different nutrition journals, much to digest!

Everything we do affect our biochemistry and metabolism: walking, a discussion on Misplaced Pages, meditation, having sex, thinking, sport activites etc. This is called catabolism. “Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism” is published by the respected Hindawi Publishing Corporation. The Editorial Bord is unfortunately full of peoples connected to universites around the world.

The question whether this particular review belong to this particluar journal or not, that’s a side track. It could have been published in another journal, if it got through the peer – review process, but I find it unlikely that the topic (a bit uncommon) fits that many journals.

Since we unfortunately have to pay to get published in academic journals these days, that’s also a side track, as I perceive it. Granateple (talk) 00:36, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Nobody has to pay to have their work published in quality journals, they merely have to pass the peer review and editorial process in place to select those articles worthy of publication. The incentive for journals like Nature to publish only reliable articles lies in their need to maintain their reputation. In contrast, Hindawi and its stable of pay-to-print publications have no reputation for the quality of their articles, being hardly ever cited in other mainstream publications. They actually have an incentive to publish anything of whatever quality since they are paid for that. The journals simply do not display the reputation for fact-finding and accuracy that is required for a Misplaced Pages WP:reliable source, let alone the high quality expected of any source making a medical claim per WP:MEDRS. They have no place in this encyclopedia. --RexxS (talk) 01:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

What's the meaning of "pay to publish" in this context? It's entirely normal for reputable journals to assess page charges. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:36, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

RexxS: I find your opinions interesting, but also one-sided. Perhaps not for you, but many people have to pay to get published these days. This also has to do with the gradual change from traditional journals towards open access – journals. And I think it is fair to assume that Hindawi must think about its reputation, and that the peer – review folks have some self-respect. But the business aspect also holds true: publications becomes ever more numerous and specialized. And when the first sentence in WP:RS read “Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered”, then I think you are a bit too harsh when you say that Hindawi and their journals (have a look at them and the content) have no place in this encyclopedia. We accept news sources and medical information resources. As a matter of fact, I find your opinions not very convincing and also unscientific. Granateple (talk) 02:01, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree that RexxS's information seems incomplete. Especially in the sciences, many highly-respected journals make page charges, so in effect the author (or the author's research funding) pays for publication. It's always been the case, ever since the 15th century, that notable authors sometimes pay to get notable work published. Andrew Dalby 14:46, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Granateple, I find your badgering of everyone who comments at this threat troublesome. A question was brought here for outside opinion and you need to let other folks offer that opinion without you intervening on every comment you don't agree with. We heard you the first six times, and you have nothing new to offer other than repeating the same mantra about the reliability of Hindawi and their journals. The truth is that although some respectable journals may make charges, not all of them do, and that is a world of difference from a unknown publisher such as Hindawi actually having a business model that relies on accepting payment-for-publication in the same way as a vanity press does for books. Hindawi journals have no reputation and are almost uncited among the mainstream. Those are the key issues: their business model is merely the reason why they have no reputation. They have no place in any serious article or in Misplaced Pages. --RexxS (talk) 18:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm criticising myself (see above) as well as others: too many criteria are being thrown into the pot here if the real issue is one sentence from one paper in one journal.

The way to see whether that paper is worth citing is whether other reliable publications elsewhere have cited it. If none have, the authors' view may still be well worth citing if their other work is regularly cited elsewhere. If these are borderline issues, we may still think it's worth citing their view with an in-text attribution to their names. If the paper and the authors are never cited elsewhere, we should forget them and look for a different source. Andrew Dalby 19:14, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

”The impact factor, often abbreviated IF, is a measure reflecting the average number of citations to articles published in science and social science journals. It is frequently used as a proxy for the relative importance of a journal within its field, with journals with higher impact factors deemed to be more important than those with lower ones.” (source: Misplaced Pages)

We obviously have different kinds of mantras.

Clinical and Developmental Immunology, impact factor 2.263. Mediators of Inflammation, impact factor 2.059. PPAR Research, impact factor 2.727. Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine, impact factor 2.964. Journal of Nanomaterials, impact factor 1.675. Comparative and Functional Genomics, impact factor 1.361. Oxidative Medicine and Cellular Longevity, impact factor 2.468. Advances in High Energy Physics, impact factor 1.846.

The impact factor for these journals are not of the highest, but at the same time not too bad. To say that this research doesn’t belong in Misplaced Pages, that I find peculiar. Granateple (talk) 20:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

It should be emphasized that the Impact Factors for open access journals are almost certainly inflated because they are open access (indeed the main selling point of these open access journals is that they will inflate the coverage). That these journals only have mediocre Impact Factors despite being open access says much. Agree with RexxS that we should be using better sources. Yobol (talk) 20:12, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

This is a discussion and as such editors may discuss, oddly enough. So far there is a lot of information here from everyone and the environment is pleasant. I hope we can continue that way. Thanks.(olive (talk) 20:15, 25 January 2012 (UTC))

From what I've seen so far, the main problem with Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism is common to any new journal. It is new. This means it hasn't developed a readership and its articles (whether good or bad) are not seen much by experts who might otherwise spot their strengths and weaknesses. It is quite normal for new publications to take five years before even an impact factor is assessed. Open Access journals grow a bit quicker than paid-subscriptions, but it still isn't instantaneous. We have wp:NODEADLINE. We can wait a few years to see if citations appear in the existing journals. Otherwise, the experts' silence will have spoken. LeadSongDog come howl! 21:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I have informed WikiProject Academic Journals about our discussion. Perhaps they will give us their opinion? Granateple (talk) 21:10, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

There's a list of "predatory" journals here, which mentions Hindawi on a secondary "watchlist" of journals that are not as predatory but still somewhat questionable, and a lot of discussion about Hindawi specifically in the comments. (Note that I don't consider the posterous link to be a reliable source in the Misplaced Pages sense, but I still think the previous discussion of the same issue there could be useful for informing our discussions here). My own impression of the Hindawi discussion from that source is that they do publish some (many?) reliable journals but that it might not be appropriate to give a blanket assumption of reliability to all of their journals. I have no opinion on the specific journals concerned in this question, though. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:18, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks, David. This is an interesting piece of information and it might indicate a problem. However, what do you make of this article , and this discussion (pasted from above).(olive (talk) 23:22, 25 January 2012 (UTC))

Thank you, David Eppstein.

olive: I think you should be allowed to use your review about relaxation/meditation and high blood pressure in the Transcendental Meditation article. The clinical findings are straightforward and would have amused the violinist Albert Einstein. Perhaps the journal is not reliable enough to be used as reference in the “Hypertension” article, but for the TM article I think it is okay. If it belong somewhere, it must be there. Now I withdraw from this discussion, and I wish you good luck. Granateple (talk) 23:01, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for you input Granataple: I guess the best thing to do would be to wait a bit more time until posts stop coming in, but I'm not attached to this source.There are many good secondary sources that can be used. I just want to make sure that if we decide to not use this source it is for the right reasons and that those reasons are neutral. There has been a lot of good input here and that's great .(olive (talk) 23:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC))

olive: I think you should not use your review about relaxation/meditation and high blood pressure in the Transcendental Meditation article. It is not published in a journal that meets our standard of reputation for fact-finding and accuracy. If it's not reliable enough to be used as reference in the “Hypertension” article, then it's not reliable enough for the TM article either. The reasons for not using it are founded in WP:V WP:RS and WP:MEDRS, rather than in Granateple's belief that if they repeat something often enough, somebody might believe it. It really is beyond a joke that the editor engaged in the earlier discussion, lobbying for the inclusion of that source, and has now posted 9 times in this request for outside views on the reliability of a source. How is anyone supposed to draw any conclusions with this sort of interference? --RexxS (talk) 00:36, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but that comment doesn't make sense to me. The reason we're at this NB is to get input on whether the review does in fact meet our standards. The allegation was that because it was open access or pay to publish it could not be reliable but there are multiple comments here that indicate that may not be the case. Fladrif suggests this is a vanity press and that doesn't seem to be the case,either. I've also linked to an article and to a discussion that indicate the journal may be well regarded. So in my mind right now we have a draw. I'd like ton see what David Epsteinn has to say and then see what any other editors have to add. At that point I feel I and the other editors on the article can make an informed decision. I'm not attached one way or the other and I 'm not in a rush to push this with out good information which I feel we are getting. Thanks for your opinion and comments.(olive (talk) 01:11, 26 January 2012 (UTC))

A draw? I have given a number of reasons and other uninvolved editors have offered additional reasons why this is not a reliable source aside from it being pay-for-play, and I have read not a single reasoned argument by any editor as to why this journal and this article would be considered a reliable source. If I may summarize, yet again, the comments that have been made here: this is (i)an obscure, low-impact, relatively new journal (ii) by a commercial publisher that is on a watchlist for possible predatory vanity publication by virtue of producing a large number of journals without an adequate editorial staff to undertake the review that it claims to be doing, and it noted for spam solicitation of content; ((iii) which charges authors for publication; (iv) that is not listed on MEDLINE; (v) is not listed on ICMJE; (vi) is not listed on CSE; and (vii) concerns an article outside the scope of the publication,raising a red flag under WP:MEDSCI. While there seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether an open-access journal that charges authors publication fees is an automatic disqualifier as a RS, there is not a single uninvolved editor who contends that this journal and this article would qualify as a source for an article on medical research per WP:MEDRS. The single uninvolved editor who originally stated that the publisher is respectable and could be used has now conceded that this source should not be used in a medical research article. Neither of the articles you linked to concern this particular journal. I would say the matter is settled conclusively that this source is not a RS and not compliant with WP:MEDRS. Fladrif (talk) 02:08, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Arabs in Turkey

A number of users insist on including a reference putting the number of Arabs in Turkey at more that 8 million, 10 folds more than US and Turkish estimates. Is this source reliable enough to be included?

Compare with and .--Rafy talk 02:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, obviously the Turkish source you cite talks about Turkification (see the Kurdish part). The population of Hatay province alone is 1.4 Million of which two-thirds were Arab according to your "US source". Another article puts the number of Arabs (only native speakers) at 365,340 and Kurds at 2,219,502 as of 1984. If we use the numbers from Turkey which show 15.7% of the population is Kurdish, with the same proportions (given that Arabs and Kurds live together in the same areas) from 1984 we will get 2.6% as the Arabic native speaker proportion (equivalent to 1,905,216 people). Again, this only considers native speakers knowing that many Arabs have lost their language during successive Turkification campaigns. عمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 16:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

This noticeboard should only be concerned with the claims found at http://www.turkiyearaplari.org. Other issues can be discussed at the talk page of the article.--Rafy talk 21:37, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing for a claim of prophecy

1. Is a claim of prophecy (whether or not given in Misplaced Pages's voice) an extraordinary claim, and thus subject to WP:REDFLAG?
2. Is the claimant's own writings, published by the publishing company he founded, an adequate source for the claim?

• The article is Calvary Chapel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (History section)
• The claim is:

While Chuck Smith was still a member of a denominational church, he claimed that a prophecy came to him in which the Lord said to him that He was changing his name. His new name would mean "Shepherd" because the Lord was going to make him the shepherd of many flocks and the church would not be large enough to hold all of the people who would be flocking to hear the Word of God.

• The source is: Smith, Chuck & Tal Brooke (2003) Harvest. pp. 23. ISBN 0936728426, The Word For the Today Publishers, www.twft.com

Hrafn_Stalk(P) 03:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

• I don't think REDFLAG is the issue; Misplaced Pages has hundreds of pages related to religion in which we somehow manage to cover exceptional claims in a neutral way. I was going to respond that the question was why we considered some guy's self-published stuff important enough to include in an article, but then I double-checked and some guy is the founder of the article subject, so it should be fine. Ideally the article would be based primarily or entirely on coverage of the subject in reliable secondary sources so as to ensure due weight, but it's not inadmissible. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
• The article does not state that a prophecy occurred. The article states that someone said he had received a prophecy. This is hardly extraordinary, but rather happens quite commonly in certain religious circles. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 16:11, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Trying to take the two questions in a straight way.

• 1. Of course not. It would be REDFLAG if WP treated the prophecy as true, and reliable sources did not.
• 2. A prophet's own words would be good enough for the words of the prophet, for example if the prophet had a blog. But there are sometimes questions about whether interviews, blogs etc are really those belonging to the person whose opinion is being cited. As long as that is not an issue, no problem.

...but obviously this begs the question. Notability is much more likely to be an issue. And notability for a prophecy involves not only the prophet but also people who believe him or her.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:26, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

It might be noted that the initiating editor has withdrawn the point on the original talk page. Perhaps this thread is ready to be closed? --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 16:58, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Deutsche Presse-Agentur at Monsters and Critics

While Monsters and Critics itself, to my knowledge, isn't an RS, this news story about Qian Zhijun is credited to the Deutsche Presse-Agentur. So, is it alright if I use this link right away, or should I try to find an alternate URL or a print source with the same information? WhisperToMe (talk) 01:07, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I see the same story hosted on rawstory.com WhisperToMe (talk) 01:08, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Call of Duty Wiki

http://callofduty.wikia.com/Call_of_Duty_Wiki

Is this a reliable source for gaming or Call of Duty related subjects, particularly about stuff in-game?

Anonyma Mädel (talk) 05:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

No, wikis and other user-generated content are never reliable. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Anything that is in game could be cited by the content of the game itself (ie quotes etc)--70.24.204.79 (talk) 05:03, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Health Science Journal (f/k/a ICUs and Nursing Web Journal)

In the Misplaced Pages article Transcendental Meditation research, an article published in the Health Science Journal is cited twice as a source. Health Science Journal, formerly known as ICUs and Nursing Web Journal is a 5-year old, online-only from Greece the Technological Educational Institute of Athens. In stark contrast to most scholarly journals, it sells advertising. . It carries a rather striking disclaimer as to the reliability of the information contained in the articles it publishes:

The information at this website is provided with the understanding that the publisher, authors, editorial board members and experts are not rendering nursing, medical or professional services. Nursing is a rapidly changing science, so efforts are being made to provide update information that is professionally correct through the review of the recent bibliography and the use of approved quantitative and qualitative research methods. However, there may be mistakes both typographical and in content, and subsequent findings may invalidate what is posted on this journal. The material provided should be used only as a general guide and not the ultimate source of information and should not be used to make personal or professional decisions. The authors, editorial board members, experts and the publisher shall have neither liability nor responsibility to any person or entity with respect to any loss or damage alleged to be caused directly or indirectly by the information presented in this journal.

It is not listed or indexed on MEDLINE, PUBMED, ICMJE or JSE. One would need a microscope to see its impact factor. The purpose and focus of the publication is nursing, but more specifically, ICU and critical care nursing.

The specific article being used as a source is Varvogli, L and Darviri, C, "Stress Management Techniques: evidence-based procedures that relieve stress", Health Science Journal Vol 5, Issue 2 (2011) p74( The article summarizes ten stress-management techniques, one of which is Transcendental Mediation, with a description of the History/Origins, the Method/Pathophysiology, and claimed Results/Benefits, with extensive footnotes to various primary and secondary sources for each technique. The ten methods were selected because they are taught in the authors' programs or used in their own research. (p 81)It concludes that all ten techniques "are effective treatment methods for reducing stress and anxiety....improve the quality of life for patients and in many cases contribute in the reduction of disease symptoms" It further concludes:

However, the literature shows that there is a need for more extensive randomized control trials of the aforementioned stress reduction techniques in order to establish their usefulness in the prevention and management of disease. There is also a need to include more biological measures in order to quantify symptom reduction and investigate the pathophysiological mechanisms connecting stress, disease and health. (Ibid)

The purpose for which the source is being used in the Misplaced Pages Article is in stark contrast to the conclusions of the paper itself that more extensive randomized control trials are needed and that there is a need for more biological measures to quantify results and investigate the mechanisms involved. The editors using this source are instead cherry picking from the narrative description i the TM section, then using that to bootstrap primary source studies that the authors are simply reporting on rather than analyzing or comparing to other studies:

Reviews in 2010 and 2011 reported a 2009 study by MUM and American University researchers on 298 college students that found decreased blood pressure in the TM group that was associated with a reduction in stress and hostility, and an increase in coping.

According to research reviews, a retrospective, non-randomized study that examined the health care utilization records for over 2,800 subjects in Quebec found that the 1,400 subjects in the TM group needed less health care after learning TM, whereas the control group’s need increased. These preliminary findings "suggest the potential for decreased usage and costs among patients using TM."

___

1. Horowitz, Sala (August 2010). "Health Benefits of Meditation: What the Newest Research Shows". Alternative and Complementary Therapies. 16 (4): 223–228.
   Varvogli, Liza; Darviri, Christina (2011). "Stress Management Techniques: Evidence-Based Procedures that Reduce Stress and Promote Health". Health Science Journal. 5 (2): 74–89.Quotation: “Clinical effects of TM impact a broad spectrum of physical and psychological symptoms and syndromes, including reduced anxiety, pain, and depression, enhanced mood and self esteem, decreased stress, and faster recovery from stress.” (Varvogli & Darviri)
2. Bodeker, Gerald; Kronenberg, Fredi (October 2002). "A Public Health Agenda for Traditional, Complementary, and Alternative Medicine". American Journal of Public Health. 92 (10): 1588. A retrospective study of Quebec health insurance enrollees compared a group of 1418 Transcendental Meditation (TM) practitioners with 1418 nonmeditators. The yearly rate of increase in payments in both groups was not significantly different before the TM group learned meditation; after learning, the annual change in mean payments was a decline of 1% to 2% for the TM group and an increase of up to 12% for nonmeditators.
3. Varvogli, Liza; Darviri, Christina (2011). "Stress Management Techniques: Evidence-Based Procedures that Reduce Stress and Promote Health". Health Science Journal. 5 (2): 74–89. Regular practice of TM leads to reduced medical care utilization and expenditures.
4. Barrows, Kevin; Jacobs, Bradley (January 2002). "Mind-Body Medicine: An Introduction and Review of the Literature". Medical Clinics of North America. 86 (1): 13–15. Preliminary findings suggest the potential for decreased usage and costs among patients using TM.

I have raised this issue at the talkpage for the article with input only from the two involved editors advocating use of the source. I do not think that this journal has acquired a reputation and acceptance which would qualify it as a source under WP:MEDRS The sale of advertising and the prominent disclaimer raise a red flag for me. The scope of the article would appear to be outside, or on the periphery of the focus of the publication raising a concern under WP:MEDSCI. The use to which the source is being put, to bootstrap primary sources being reported on but not analyzed by the authors, where the authors conclude that there is a need for more careful randomized control trials, is an improper use of the source.

The closed discussion above regarding Nutrution and Metabolism would appear to be instructive, though there are distinct issues involved.

Assessment and comment by uninvolved editors would be appreciated.

Sorry for the length of this request.

Thanks. Fladrif (talk) 16:09, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

My objections to this source mirrors the objections I had to the other source in the other thread above; namely, not MEDLINE listed and publication of material outside the area of usual content of the journal (in this case nursing). Probably should be finding a better source. Yobol (talk) 01:02, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Any other uninvolved editors care to weigh in pro or con? Fladrif (talk) 16:07, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

"Original paper"

I removed this reference:

Daniel Dady (2010). Harmonic and Subharmonic Distortions in Musical Interpretations (PDF). Daniel Dady.

from the article on Subharmonic, and wrote on the talkpage: "I have removed the references to an "original paper" by this photographer. Unpublished original research cannot by any stretch of the imagination be regarded as a WP:Reliable source." The ref has been restored to the article by an IP editor. Time to ask for some input from others, see if anyone agrees or disagrees. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

It is a self-published source. The author is not "an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications" See WP:SPS. A quick search of Google, Google Books and Goodle Scholar shows no books or papers produced by him on this or any other subject matter published other than on his own website. Thus, it is not a reliable source, and your removal of it was entirely correct.Fladrif (talk) 19:23, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The IP geolocates to the same place as the author of the paper. Definitely doesn't meet the sniff test. LeadSongDog come howl! 23:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Self published books

• Criticism of Meher Baba (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) relies heavily on self published books by one author:

• Shepherd, Kevin R D (1986). A Sufi Matriarch: Hazrat Babajan (Cambridge: Anthropographia Publications) ISBN 0950868019
• Shepherd, Kevin R D (2005). Investigating the Sai Baba Movement: A Clarification of Misrepresented Saints and Opportunism (Dorchester, Dorset: Citizen Initiative) ISBN 0952508931
• Shepherd, Kevin R D (1988). Meher Baba, an Iranian Liberal (Cambridge: Anthropographia Publications) ISBN 0950868051

Whilst this would normally make me think they are not reliable, I checked WorldCat and they are held by a fair few academic libraries. Does this mean anything, regarding how reliable they are?

There are also a few books published by this publisher which "aspires to help bring forward a new, creative universal outlook that embraces and transcends divisions of east and west, north and south, believers and nonbelievers. We invite wisdom and good humor from all directions to help you formulate your own individual wisdom—to stimulate, not to dominate, what must be a creative, individual process." - Are they reliable? SmartSE (talk) 22:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Hum. A little Googlery reveals that (a) Shepherd appears to be self-taught, and to apparently lack academic credentials, and (b) there have been run-ins with him (and/or his supporters) in the past over the question of his notability etc - see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kevin R. D. Shepherd. In any case, the answer seems to be that as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, his works are unlikely to meet our criteria as reliable sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:15, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The answer is simple. These are self-published sources. Thus, we go to the second question, is the author recognized as an established expert who has been previously published in the relevant field by reliable, third party publishers. My takeaway from the RFD about the author is that the answer to that question is that (i) there is no reliable, third party source establishing recognition of his expertise in the field, and (ii) he has not been published by reputable third party publishers, only in vanity press publications. Thus, he meets neither prong of this two-prong test, and these books do not meet the requirements of SPS. Fladrif (talk) 05:56, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Getting a book published is not a very high bar to jump over. Self publishing just shows effort on the part of the person doing it. The only thing I have seen which might give them any sort of usability in an article is that someone else has commented on them. If other people had referenced them to some extent that would show they were recognized but no evidence of that seems to be around. At the moment I really can't seen any reason for saying the books are a reliable source. So agree fully with Fladrif. Unfortunately as editors in Misplaced Pages we can't just go around recognizing just anything we like as reliable and there's already an awful lot of trash which is counted as okay, putting the bar even lower would increase the proportion and amount of rubbish to a quite unmanageable extent. Yes the occasional gem is lost but hopefully someone will recognize them eventually. It's not our job to search for such gems, we are not qualified to do that. We depend on others to find them. Dmcq (talk) 10:25, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Dmcq, you say that "no evidence ... seems to be around" that others have commented on Shepherd's books. Really? No evidence at all? Where did you search? How about the following: (1) Marianne Warren, PhD, in her Unravelling the Enigma: Shirdi Sai Baba in the Light of Sufism (multiple references); (2) Antonio Rigopoulos, The Life and Teachings of Sai Baba of Shirdi (multiple references - go to the Google Preview and search for "Shepherd"); (3) an Encyclopedia of Hinduism (listed in the "further reading" sections for the articles on Meher Baba and Sai Baba of Shirdi); (4) Anne Feldhaus, Images of Women in Maharashtrian Society, page 264; (5) a German Encyclopedia of Theology, Theologische Realenzyklopädie, page 547. As DGG said (quoted above): "his books ... are in a number of academic libraries, and I think sufficient to indicate that they are regarded as worth considering". Finally, I agree that Misplaced Pages editors can't "go around recognizing just anything we like as reliable", but in saying that you subsume all Misplaced Pages editors in the same category. I am a Misplaced Pages editor with a background in the Humanities and Philosophy for over twenty years; I have worked in academic bookselling (Shepherd's books were sold in the main academic bookshop in Cambridge, where I worked for four years) and publishing; and I have actually read Shepherd's books. Combined with the evidence above (that specialists have cited Shepherd and that his books are in a number of academic libraries), am I not in a position to judge whether his books are reliable? As is clear from the extensive Bibliography in his Meher Baba: An Iranian Liberal, Shepherd had access to documents that would not be found elsewhere in the archive. So yes, I am using my own experience and expertise to recognize the books of this author as "gems" that have a role to play in the contribution to knowledge. Simon Kidd (talk) 12:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

As the originator of the article, may I simply state that in another book listed in the Bibliography, namely Meher Baba’s Early Messages to the West, edited by Ward Parks, that when Parks writes on the subjects of both Paul Brunton and Rom Landau there is the acknowledgement that (a) “Though no devotee of Meher Baba and a sharp critic of Meher Baba’s follower’s, Kevin Shepherd turns his critical eye on Brunton’s account, in Meher Baba, an Iranian Liberal (Cambridge, England: Anthropographia Publications, 1986), pp. 146–76; and (b) “For a review of Landau’s assessment of Meher Baba, see Kevin Shepherd, Meher Baba, an Iranian Liberal, pp.176–82. If a book produced by a publishing house (Sheriar Foundation) devoted to Meher Baba is prepared to accept the writings of Kevin Shepherd, a non-devotee, as valid contribution, then I certainly have no reservations in including his account of the background to Brunton’s and Landau’s criticisms of Meher Baba in the article. --Stephen Castro (talk) 14:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

We cannot accept the opinion of a Misplaced Pages editor, no matter how informed, as to the expertise and qualifications of an author; we must rely upon independent, reliable, third party sources for that. If we are to accept these various references to some of his books in third party sources, some of which are incidental, others of which are more substantive, and at least two of which strike me as indictments of his scholarship, rather than endorsements (Warren writes While most of his arguments concerning Sai Baba’s Sufi connections are strong, he provides very little corroboration from the Sai Baba literature itself. For example, there is no evidence that he read Dabholkar’s Sri Sai Saccarita nor that he knew Marathi or the Maharashtrian Bhakti tradition. In fact, no bibliography was given with his monograph. and Shepherd is very opinionated in this book. For example he summarily dismisses Narasimhaswami as an opportunist, whose only interest was in elevating himself through writing the biographies of holy men., and Rigoupolis writes that Shepherd surprisingly seems to ignore the existence of the latter's major contribution...which he never mentions), we are still left with the second prong of the requirements of WP:SPS, that he have been previously published by independent,reliable third party publishers. I am under the impression that he has not been published by a reliable, non-vanity press. If that is correct, SPS unequivocably bars use of these self-published books. That his self-published books are cited, or sold in academic bookstores, or on university library shelves, does not permit us to ignore the clear requirements of WP:SPS. Fladrif (talk) 15:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Fladrif, you are cherry picking from Rigopoulos and Warren, both of whom are scholars who appear in the 'Further reading' section of the Sai Baba of Shirdi article. Shepherd wrote two books that deal directly with the subject of Shirdi Sai Baba. The earlier of these (Gurus Rediscovered: Biographies of Sai Baba of Shirdi and Upasni Maharaj of Sakori, 1985) was described by Rigopoulos as “a ground-breaking work” (The Life and Teachings of Sai Baba, p. xxvii); and Marianne Warren declared that “Shepherd was the first author to question this Hindu bias and to redefine the broad ‘Muslim’ category … most of his arguments concerning Sai Baba’s Sufi connections are strong.” (Unravelling the Enigma, p. 15). That they had criticisms of Shepherd is not unusual in a scholarly context, whether or not those criticisms were justified. In his 2005 book, Investigating the Sai Baba Movement, Shepherd addresses the critical comments by Rigopoulos and Warren (the Index contains 39 page references to the former, and 25 to the latter). It should also be borne in mind that both Rigopoulos and Warren were devotees of Sathya Sai Baba, and would not therefore have been sympathetic to Shepherd's critical comments about their guru. Warren later changed her opinion about Sathya Sai Baba (see what she wrote in this letter, for instance, including her comments on Rigopoulos).

We are actually going over old ground here, as many of the relevant points were made when WikiUserTalk (clearly an SPA) questioned the reliability of Shepherd as a source almost two years ago. He even brought up the Warren comment about the bibliography, to which I responded. See the discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Upasni_Maharaj#Kevin_R_D_Shepherd_as_a_source. Simon Kidd (talk) 16:33, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I think that commonsense is required here rather than attempting to uphold an interpretation of the letter of the “law.” Misplaced Pages is based on guidelines, not laws, and each case should be judged on its merits. In my own ongoing research into the subject of Paul Brunton, and to a lesser extent Rom Landau, I have found nothing that contradicts what Kevin Shepherd has written. In fact, a recent letter from Paul Brunton to Meher Baba, which the latter wrote in December 1930 shortly after he had left the Meherabad ashram and commenced on his travels in India, has only just come to light, and that letter fully substantiates Shepherd’s writings on the subject. See (http://mymeherbaba.com/pipermail/tavern-talk/Week-of-Mon-20110718/000863.html). The commonsense approach to Shepherd’s books has already been stated on this page. Simon Kidd’s quotes from the experienced editor DGG surely need to be seriously reflected upon. Misplaced Pages is concerned with knowledge, and unless what Shepherd has written on the subject of Brunton and Landau can be proved as unreliable by the objectors on this page, then I feel that his books should be accepted as a reliable source in the article. --Stephen Castro (talk) 17:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Your "own ongoing research" is entirely irrelevant to this discussion - see WP:OR. And no, 'objectors' don't have to 'disprove' anything: the relevant guideline is clear: "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications" - WP:USERGENERATED (emphasis in the original). If we are to ignore the guideline, we need to see arguments based on something other than original research. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

• I was asked to comment. I think the criteria for what counts as a RS in this area is somewhat more flexible than in many others, and self-publication is not as strong a reason for total rejection as it might be elsewhere. Some of Shepherd's books are in reputable libraries, and there have been citations of his work. I'd never use his works as sources for BLP, and I've argued in accord with the consensus at WP:Articles for deletion/Kevin R. D. Shepherd that he is not a notable author. But the material here does not depend solely or even principally on him, he usually seems to be only a supporting source, often for what has another citation also, and I think they are usable in the context of the article under discussion. But I've never had occasion to look at Criticism of Meher Baba before, & I think it a clear POV fork, POV based, non-neutrally written, with the over-extensive quotation of of material that to a considerable extent belongs elsewhere. About 80% seems devoted to not Meher Baba, but Brunton, a rather less significant figure. So I don't think it matters much whether these books are used for this article: the article has much worse problems. DGG ( talk ) 19:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The situation here is reminiscent of the perennial debate about Joe Baugher , a hobbyist who has apparently become an expert on airplane registry numbers, whose website is widely used as as a reference in publications, but who has never himself been published by a third party publisher within the area of his expertise. My own take is the same has here - WP:SPS requires more. Others contend thatWP:SPS should be relaxed, because Baugher is the best source available and there is no alternative source. It would appear that there is either an impasse or a detente about that issue in those articles, with Baugher continuing to be used as a source, and people continuing to complain about it. I take it that there are probably other, better sources available in this instance, so that same kind of argument may not be applicable here. It would seem that if there are other sources of higher quality, those are what should be cited in lieu of these. Fladrif (talk) 23:34, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the view that if normally reliable sources sources can't be found for a topic we should lower the standards to use whatever is available. If the only good sources on a topic are self-published, or otherwise inadmissible, then we shouldn't cover that topic.   Will Beback  talk  07:29, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

The argument "Some of Shepherd's books are in reputable libraries" (DGG above) has no value. If you self-publish, it's part of your self-imposed job to get your book into libraries. You often do that by direct-mailing the libraries you consider most visible and useful to you, and often by giving them copies of the book. Andrew Dalby 10:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, but that is only part of DGG's point. Are you saying that NO self-published books should be used as sources? And what about books that are published by organisations associated with a religious leader? As I said above, if you look at the references in the Meher Baba article, you will find that over half (9 out of 16) of the books are published by organizations with connections to Meher Baba: Sufism Reoriented, Sheriar Foundation, Avatar Foundation, Manifestation. I'm sure that an analysis of other NRM articles would tell a similar story. Are these dubious sources that should be excised? What would happen to these articles if that happened? The most extensive biography of Meher Baba was written by one of his disciples, Bhau Kalchuri. It is in five volumes and published by Manifestation. A book written by a disciple and published by an organisation linked to the Meher Baba movement! And yet, the Meher Baba article has GA status. How do we apply the Misplaced Pages guidelines in cases like this? Simon Kidd (talk) 10:46, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

"Are you saying that NO self-published books should be used as sources?" If I was saying that, I made a poor stab at it :) Andrew Dalby 16:35, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

The purpose of WP:RSN is to solicit uninvolved editor input. The noticeboard is not for the purpose of providing yet another battleground for the combatants to perpetuate their on- and off-Wiki disputes over the author and the subject matter. Thus, I have hatted this digression. I might well have hatted more.

Several uninvolved editors have given their opinions on the subject. I read the consensus as being that Shepherd's self-published books are not reliable sources under WP:RS. Whether or not he is an expert, he has never been published by a reputable third party publisher, and thus does not qualify for use under the limited exceptions of WP:SPS. Most of those commenting conclude that the sources should not be cited. While some editors are open to relaxing the requirements of WP:SPS, they note that sourcing is the least of the problems involved in the articles in which these sources are being used, and that it appears that there are better sources which do meet the requirements of WP:RS that should be used instead of Shepherd's books. Fladrif (talk) 15:14, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Fladrif, if that is the conclusion you have drawn from the above discussion, before others have had a chance to respond to legitimate points I have made (which you have relegated to obscurity), then all I can say is that this is a kangaroo court, and a travesty of due process. Simon Kidd (talk) 16:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Doubtless those apparently “better sources” being from publishers, quite often linked to a charitable trust, which specialise solely in books about Meher Baba, to the exclusion of any other subject. Such books are written by devotees of Meher Baba, for devotees of Meher Baba, and in the case of one multi-volume project, initially funded by devotee benefactors. Kevin Shepherd’s major work, Minds and Sociocultures: An Analysis of Religious and Dissenting Movements, was actually published by a third party publisher, namely Philosophical Press, Cambridge, in 1995. I do assure you, it was not a self-published work. --Stephen Castro (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Philosophical Press, Cambridge does not appear to be a reliable, third party publisher. I can locate no other book published by this publisher. Shepherd states on his website that it "was published by a freelance agent sympathetic to my work". Fladrif (talk) 20:59, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

To confirm that the sympathetic agent was not also a small-time publisher, I just searched Cambridge University Library catalogue, which seemed a likely source in this case, and I could only find this one book from "Philosophical Press". My search (I know because I used to work there) should give complete results back to 1976 if not earlier.

I think Fladrif has summarised correctly, and I also sense that the disputants, aware perhaps of wasting their own time, are hoping to waste as much as possible of other people's. Andrew Dalby 09:51, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, thank you for looking into the matter. At least that book was not self-published. I don’t of course accept the “reading” of consensus by Fladrif that Shepherd’s books are unreliable. I have used his books now in two articles, and I believe to the improvement of those articles. The first article, Hazrat Babajan, was previously exclusively based on devotee-oriented publications, and the subject of that article used principally as a peg to fly the banner of Meher Baba. The edits I made, using further sources and references, which included Shepherd’s contribution, allowed Hazrat Babajan to be seen as a significant religious figure in her own right—a notable Sufi saint who had her own following and recognition. The use of Shepherd’s books in the context of an article to provide clarification for the reader, and for the improvement of that article, is something I will continue to do. --Stephen Castro (talk) 07:36, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

• So, how do you read the consensus of uninvolved editors? What in my summary, which Andrew agrees is accurate, do you think misstates the NB consensus. It sounds like your version of NB consensus is that so long as you think a source is reliable and want to use it you're free to ignore noticeboard consensus on WP:RS and WP:SPS? Read WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.Fladrif (talk) 14:14, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
• Also, "at least that book was not self-published" is a curious conclusion. When it is the only book published by a publisher, and the author identifies the publisher as a sympathetic agent, I would draw exactly the opposite conclusion. It is clearly not, even by the most fanciful of imaginations a "reliable third party publisher", which is the actual language of WP:SPS, regardless of the convenient shorthand often used here. Fladrif (talk) 16:46, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

• I've been working on a response to post on the Talk Page, rather than here, and this will address my own concerns with this process in a comprehensive way. I haven't finished writing it yet, but I expect to post it within the next couple of days. This may cover the same ground as Stephen Castro, but probably in more detail. Simon Kidd (talk) 14:27, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

• I have already stated on this page that I accept the commonsense comment of the experienced editor DGG re Shepherd’s books: “… the material here does not depend solely or even principally on him, he usually seems to be only a supporting source, often for what has another citation also, and I think they are usable in the context of the article under discussion.” I happen to agree with that commonsense view, and as I have extensive knowledge on the subject of the article, I will use my own editorial discretion in the sources used. I have tried to provide a balance of devotee and non-devotee publications regarding the subject of the article. I actually know Shepherd is a reliable source of information on the subject, and also the most comprehensive source available out of all the books listed in the Bibliography. --Stephen Castro (talk) 17:05, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Four Five neutral, disinterested, uninvolved editors with extensive experience at RSN conclude that Shepherd's books do not qualify as reliable sources. One neutral, disinterested, uninvolved editor with extensive experience at RSN concludes that Shepherd isn't notable, the books could not be used in a BLP, but his books are mostly being used only as supplemental citations for material already supported by other reliable sources, and the article in question is such a mess that whether or not you use Shepherd's books hardly matters. Consensus isn't a vote, but you're going with that ringing endorsement over the 80%83.33% landslide that says they shouldn't be used.Fladrif (talk) 17:25, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I do not count myself in the consensus, but I still count 5 opinions against (AndyTheGrump, Fladrif, Dmcq, Will Beback, Andrew Dalby) against one of DDG. Am I wrong? Hoverfish Talk 17:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

You're right. Ever since that unfortunate incident using the lawnmower as a hedgeclipper, I get confused with numbers over three. Higher math. Fladrif (talk) 17:50, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I believe that Stephen Castro is getting at a valid point, although I wouldn't express it the way he has, and it has nothing to do with a head count. I will post an extended response on the Talk Page over the weekend - I haven't had time this week, due to work commitments. Simon Kidd (talk) 03:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Methamphetamine#Synthesis

Could someone please review the sourcing in Methamphetamine#Synthesis? That section has been drastically expanded several times larger over the past week, apparently in response to concerns about WP:NOTHOWTO on the talk page, where the editor who has done this expansion explicitly rejects peer reviewed sources. Is it kosher to include this kind of chemical synthesis detail based on news reports and law enforcement press releases for a substance known to be an extremely dangerous scorge in part because synthesis is frequently attempted by inexperienced drug addicts? Seriously, getting this wrong kills addicts and innocent bystanders alike. Shouldn't our normal peer reviewed standard apply to keep potentially dangerous information out of the most obvious place that desperate addicts will look? 71.33.165.131 (talk) 23:17, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Our policy is unambiguous: NOT CENSORED. That something is dangerous or illegal, does not mean it cannot or should not be described. Our job is to provide information: controlling the misuse of it is the responsibility of whatever society considers to be the appropriate authorities. If something is so dangerous or secret there are no available sources, or that it is illegal to publish the material in the United States, that's another matter. Otherwise, the only exception, where we would avoid using published material because of the danger, is when it provides undue coverage about a private individual, according to WP:BLP. This cannot be generalized to social problems. Of course the article must primarily use peer-reviewed sources in discussing the synthesis, but for information about the prevalent current illegal methods, any openly published RS is appropriate. The current material does not seem in the sort of detail that would violate NOTHOWTO. HOWTO would be describing the amounts, times and temperatures, and similar practical detail--as in any recipe. DGG ( talk ) 01:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Machine-history.com

Editor Tuzi runs the website www.machine-history.com, and he has added to various articles a number of references to his website. After he put one in an article I was watching I took it out because I could not get a sense of who was in charge of the website and what kind of reliability it had. (This was before I knew it was Tuzi's own.) The reference I removed was this one, said by Tuzi to be a scan of an old article in Scientific American, June 8, 1901, page 357. However, the webpage is not a true scan, it is HTML text. Ideally, we would assume that it was perfectly transcribed word-for-word from the old article, but perhaps not.

Tuzi admitted to me on my talk page that he is not an acknowledged expert in every subject that is represented on his website; rather, he is an auto mechanic. Regarding his level of expertise, I see him as an enthusiast in many things technical, like myself.

Some of his webpages host very old publications; these are free of copyright issues because of age. However, other pages such as this one host copyrighted materials, in this instance images that have an obvious copyright tag and a 2004 date.

So, the Big Question: can we accept any of the old public domain materials hosted by machine-history as references? Some examples:

• Elias Howe: Scientific American 1896 (HTML text, scanned images)
• Letord Let.7: Scientific American 1918 (HTML text, scanned images, two thumbnails of scanned pages of original)
• Refrigeration: Scientific American 1881 (HTML text, scanned image)
• Unconventional wind turbines: Wind Turbine Blade Tip Power System (HTML text, modern images, YouTube video clip)
• Vortex tube: Vortex Tube Operation (HTML text, video clips, colored diagrams, a scanned image from the 1940s)
• James W. Queen & Company: Scientific American January 5, 1901 (HTML text, scanned images)
• Photographophone: Scientific American 1901 (HTML text, scanned images)
• Crank (mechanism): 1918 Reo Owner's Manual (HTML text, scanned images)
• Direct methanol fuel cell: Direct Methanol Fuel Cell (DMFC) (HTML text, modern diagram, modern photograph)

Of course we cannot take the pages that have copyrighted information. Can we accept the pages that are taken from pre-1923 publications? Binksternet (talk) 04:38, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• I would discourage the citations to Scientific American articles on machine-history.com, even for articles in the public domain. First of all, those links would be convenience links at best. Since the articles have apparently been retyped to put them into HTML, one would have to check the original article in the magazine to be sure that they were correct. Second, Scientific American is a well-known magazine held by many libraries, and thus editors should be able to cite the original articles without that much difficulty. Third, if machine-history.com regularly violates other copyrights, then that's not the kind of site Misplaced Pages ought to link to, notwithstanding that in this case we would only be linking to public domain materials. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:20, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I have to admit that I don't have personal knowledge of whether the site does violate copyrights. So if it doesn't violate copyrights, please disregard the third reason above. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:22, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Defense of site

Thank you for a forum to defend my position that machinehistory.com is a reliable source.

I am machinehistory.com or machine-history.com. There are no other editors. When I started the site several years ago (2007) I dreamed of a content management site that users could join users knowledge of mechanical things. There were too many scammers, viagras etc, having to add software to stop it and monitoring, so I closed it to other editors. I decided to continue alone and occasionally add to the public site at Misplaced Pages.org. Wikipeida is where the resources and quality and monitoring were more than anyone along could do.

I am in possession of many thousands of periodicals mostly from the early 1800's to 1970's. My inventory ranges from Abel's Photographic Weekly (196 issues March 1925 to Jan 1934)to Zion's Herald (562 issues May 1869 to July 1918).

I understand Binksternet could have concern over 'unreliable sources' here at machinehistory.com .......... but I want to defend my side.

• Violates other copyrights: I have never had a complaint on copyright, ever. Binksternet may be correct citing images on a informative article this one. I suggest are many violations at other sites. Ultimately, only a federal court can determine whether a particular use is, in fact, a fair use under the law. Over 300 words in a quote, thumbnails, for profit, educational. Consider http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html If there is some over the top violation ( which is by the way is totally somewhere else on the machine site)I would consider changing it. Anyway do not condemn the whole site. Please, depending on how tight you call it, I believe most sites violate 'Scribes' letter of the law. Now, congradulations, I believe Misplaced Pages is one of the cleanest sites out there.

Defense of first 3 examples given above..........

• Elias Howe I did not add a link here. Only a scanned image from the September 10, 1846 Scientific American article. Maybe a sentence of info. Why protest this?
• Letord Let.7 I started the article, added info from the periodical,image and link. There are now no references on this article. Information with no reference does not seem right to me.
• Refrigeration I added info on 'other methods' and a reference to machine-history.com and Scientific American to back up the text.
• "those links would be convenience links at best." The same material can be found nearly as easily elsewhere from a more reliable source. Where can you find the article at elsewhere? Isn't that what Misplaced Pages is all about? Misplaced Pages makes it so even the common person without making an appointment with the National Archives can learn and do and not have to pay a fee.
• webpage is not a true scan, it is HTML text: Who wants and can use only a scanned picture of text? With text, search engines can find pertinent information. I scanned the periodical article then used OmniPage Pro 14 an (OCR) Optical character recognition
• I have some other sites: that I may have added text to some of Misplaced Pages articles. Please rate them and tell me if they disqualify. electric vehicle conversion journal install journal About my father, cold war Naval Photo-recon pilot (many Navy photo's see the video of him If you go the the USS Intrepid in New York and see the display of the arresting system the center of the 5 cables is missing. Dad broke that cable and I have that photo he later took)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuzi (talk • contribs)

• Unreliable: The webpage has no about, no names are listed, they fail to meet basic librarianship and archival standards, there is no evidence that they transmit primary source material intact, invariant and correct. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:57, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Do not refactor my comments by movement or deletion as you did here. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
• I will not move your comment again. I did so because you and I added at the same time and I formatted incorretly as my defense being a new subject. Anyhow please reply again after reading my defense. If the consensuses is Unreliable then I will take my ball and go home and play, with my feelings hurt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuzi (talk • contribs)
  • I read your defence, and inquired into the objects under inquiry, before writing my opinion. You may wish you compare your website to the National Archives Australia, or the Noel Butlin Archives in Canberra, or the archival collections of the National Library Australia, or the Australian War Memorial. Your collection does not meet the standards, including the institutional standards, of trustworthyness in the transmission of such materials. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:37, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Fifelfooare you kidding me? "compare your website to the National Archives Australia, or the Noel Butlin Archives in Canberra, or the archival collections of the National Library Australia, or the Australian War Memorial". Really, that is now your standard. Give me a break.

• • • Intact, invariant, complete, correct. Your websites transmission of sources cannot be seen to be reliable, and is not reliable. Your site don't have ascession numbers, identified staff, an about-us page, a commitment to intact, invariant, complete and correct transmission. Misplaced Pages has sourcing standards. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
• Ok, I totally disagree, but three Misplaced Pages people who probably are much more scholarly than I have each left no doubt, none that these sites I defended above, are reliable sources. I will type my last comment here.

People; I would have handled it different. If I was a leader or 'Scribe' at Misplaced Pages... well what about encouragement, helpful, friendly? Tuzi

• As far as encouragement goes: it is possible to produce a home archive site. You need to demonstrate conformance with archival standards; recognition by other archives and archivists; and, recognition by the users of archives. Sadly, though, PRIMARY sources are generally rejected for historical articles, as they require non-trivial interpretation. You may find more success in uploading images of machines to commons (with full attribution, and demonstration of public domain status). The material you're talking about is unlikely to ever be accepted as a source for articles, but may provide Public Domain illustrations for articles. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:31, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Nasim Yousaf

Nasim Yousaf is a grandson of Inayatullah Khan Mashriqi. He has made his living as an exporter of textiles but has also written numerous books and articles about both his grandfather and his uncle. There are a series of websites dedicated to the former and on which Yousaf seems to be the sole contributor - basically, hagiographic sites + promotion for their publications. Most of the publications have been through AMZ Publications - eg: this, and the publisher's website suggests that their primary output is in fact works related to import/export rather than biography/history/political science etc. Yousaf apparently lives in the US now & I would not be at all surprised if AMZ is operated by him.

Yousaf's books and related websites are being used as the major source at Inayatullah Khan Mashriqi, despite my attempts to remove them as being, imo, unreliable, COI, SPS. Am I correct regarding reliability issues? I need some sort of consensus that can be pointed to if in fact I am (and if I am not then, well, lesson learned!). - Sitush (talk) 09:15, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I note that we have an article on AMZ Publications, created by User:Beautycare, who also created Nasim Yousaf. Their sole author appears to be Yousaf, per GBooks (is there a way to search WorldCat by publisher?) - Sitush (talk) 09:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC).

Yes JanetteDoe (talk) 14:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

It isn't verifiably self-publication, perhaps; let's just say there's no evidence that the publisher adds any reliability to these books. We would need, at least, evidence that they are cited in reliable scholarship before we could treat them as reliable. Andrew Dalby 16:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I checked whether he was cited by others and could find nothing that was of note. Is there no register of companies in New York? I'd put money on him being a director of AMZ. - Sitush (talk) 17:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

The New York State Division of Corporations does not seem to list this business. The publisher's website doesn't seem to list any more specific physical address than "New York", and the contact email is a yahoo account. JanetteDoe (talk) 19:42, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I am more and more sure that this entire thing is a massive case of puffery. Two related articles are at AfD - here and here - and as I dissect others it is becoming clear that there really is not much substance to the various claims etc. - Sitush (talk) 06:36, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Latin music articles

I want to know if the following websites are reliable:

• http://latinrapper.com
• http://corrientelatina.com
• http://nochelatina.com

I have been editing Misplaced Pages articles for over a year now and I still don't know how to tell if a website is reliable or not. Thanks very much, Gariseiro (talk)

• Reliability means that the source (ie, the website) can support specific claims on wikipedia. You may like to read WP:IRS that covers how to identify reliable sources. Websites about music generally need to meet or exceed the standards for the credible music press of newspapers and magazines. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Blog sources in Dennis Ritchie

There is a discussion underway at Talk:Dennis Ritchie#Random quotes and sources regarding the use of blogs as sources. Your thoughts would be useful. Msnicki (talk) 23:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Correction, there is a discussion where another contributor has asserted that publications, with paid editors, editorial policies, editorial oversight, shouldn't be used because they are "blogs". One of those publication dates back to 1878 and has been a daily publication since 1889. This has been pointed out to the contributor who repeatedly removed material I contributed. Only two of the seven refernces this contributor excised on the grounds they were "blogs" were online-only publications.

Further, I suggested that the reason we don't consider "blogs" to be reliable sources is that what most people call "blogs" are written to some sole individual, who has no special recognized expertise, who may have done zero research, or may have plagiarized a newspaper article. I suggest that online publications, with an editorial policy, paid editors, editorial standards and editorial control, with the fact-checking that implies, can be just as reliable as print-only publications. In the 21st Century a limited number of online-only publications are more reliable than print journalists -- Scotusblog being an example.

In this comment I went through all the references the other contributor justified excising on the grounds they were blogs. Leaving out all but the two ExtremeTech and Newswise which are online-only publications -- they both have editorial standards, paid editors, so they are not the kind of "blogs" we should dismiss out of hand.

Finally, when someone who is already recognized as an expert in WP:RS writes an online publication that some people call a "blog", the pre-existing recognition that they are an expert makes their online writings reliable, even if their is no external editorial control. As a special case, some individuals who weren't originally notable have their online publications cited by other WP:RS sufficiently that they too join the ranks of the WP:RS. Wonkette would be an example.

Blindly dismissing sources as "blogs", just because they are online-only publications, when they have editorial standards comparable to print publications is unwise. It is unwise even when those online publications include "blog" in their name. Geo Swan (talk) 21:51, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree 110%. There are blogs and then there are blogs. This ain't no blog; it's an online column by a reliable, respected publisher respected for a century + of careful editorial oversight. This is a reliable source, and whomever is deleting it has no conception of the difference between a blog and a blog. Fladrif (talk) 02:01, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Geo Swan has misrepresented my position. I agree that there are blogs and then there are blogs. I myself earlier cited Rob Pike's blog. My objections to the blogs in question are that they are run-of-the-mill and of little value compared to the many, far higher-quality sources available and that the quotes didn't even match up to the statements they were supposed to support. For more, please see the referenced talk page so you get both sides. Msnicki (talk) 07:01, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I strongly disagree that I misrepresented Ms Nicki's position. I remain concerned over Ms Nicki's characterization of non-blogs as blogs. Geo Swan (talk) 12:31, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

My userid is Msnicki. I am anonymous. I do not disclose my real name, identity or gender. I request that you not speculate. Msnicki (talk) 20:10, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

City Pages?

I'm reviewing a DYK nom and wanted to double-check if a City Pages obit is a reliable source. (The hook fact relies on it) The citation's here: http://blogs.citypages.com/gimmenoise/2005/10/tetes_noires_founder_polly_ale.php. Thanks! - Khazar (talk) 11:39, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

City Pages publisher is now The Village Voice. Maybe that's what you are asking about? -SusanLesch (talk) 12:24, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. I wasn't familiar with the website and should have poked around on there more before asking. If they've won Minnesota journalism awards they're clearly a good enough resource. -- Khazar (talk) 12:50, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Khazar. Also I fact-checked this with the Minneapolis Star Tribune music critic. We're good to go. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:47, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Uh oh. The guy from the Star Tribune thinks "outsiders" think Minneapolis is the same thing as the Twin Cities. Frankly I think he couldn't be more wrong. (If I for example wrote that Garrison Keillor is from Minneapolis, I am confident it would be removed, or moved to the Saint Paul article, in under an hour.) Pardon me while I argue with him. But since City Pages is a good source I won't follow up here. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:35, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

List of Korean inventions and innovations and Hwacha

I would like some input on editing that has taken place on these articles based on two references that User:Koryosaram has used to make a very bold statement that the Hwacha was the "worlds first multiple rocket launcher". I have looked at valid references online and while the Hwacha is mentioned as being a multiple rocket launcher of Korean invention there is no reference to it being the "worlds first". I do not believe that the two references which are in Korean are reliable enough to be used to call an invention the "worlds first" especially when books on the subject make no mention of this. The two references in question are ] and ]

There is a debate on the subject here . User:Koryosaram seems to have a Korean POV from the edit history I looked at and I want to be sure that Misplaced Pages is not being used to re-write history. Any help or input will be appreciated. Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 04:24, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

A flat statement of fact as the "world's first" anything is an extraordinary claim and per WP:REDFLAG requires multiple, reliable sources that are independent of the subject, i.e. the agreement of historians and scholars around the world, regardless of nationality. What do non Korean military historians, university texts, etc. say about the Hwacha? It may well be the worlds first multiple rocket launcher, but we need more than a couple of Korean websites as sources for that statement. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

• LuckyLouie, your answer was what I believe to be the right answer in this type of situation, I just wanted to get some outside opinions. I do not usually edit articles related to Korea but ran into this by way of research on an article I plan to write on a related Japanese subject. I have no POV on the subject either way, I just do not want to see history written or rewritten without proper proof.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 16:06, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

"cannot guarantee the accuracy of the information"

I have a quick question.

If information from a website is used as a reference on wikipedia, but that website says that they cannot guarantee the accuracy of the information on their website, can I still use it as a reference on wikipedia? Satinmaster (talk) 16:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)— Satinmaster (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

See a few sections above. TenOfAllTrades puts it well:

This sort of standard disclaimer is common and entirely unremarkable. For example, the New York Times offers, in part, the following disclaimer:

THE INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN MAY CONTAIN INACCURACIES AND TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS. THE NEW YORK TIMES COMPANY MAKES NO WARRANTIES OR REPRESENTATIONS, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AS TO THE ACCURACY, COMPLETENESS OR RELIABILITY OF ANY FACTS, ADVICE, OPINIONS, VIEWS, STATEMENTS, RECOMMENDATIONS OR OTHER INFORMATION DISPLAYED ON OR DISTRIBUTED THROUGH THE WEB SITE.

(In all, it runs to four paragraphs of ALL CAPS SCREAMING LEGALESE explaining why we can't hold them responsible for errors or omissions.) You'll find similar terms on the web sites of many of our generally-considered-reliable sources.

--GRuban (talk) 16:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. But tell us which site, which page and what information. Andrew Dalby 16:33, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The website is accredibase.com and they claim to have a "group of experts" writing the reports. But list no experts. At least the NY Times does list the names of their experts.Satinmaster (talk) 16:37, 30 January 2012 (UTC))— Satinmaster (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Thanks. I think people who know US education, which I don't, need to comment on this. What information were you hoping to cite from it? Andrew Dalby 16:55, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I see that the article in question is EUCLID (university), the source is accredibase , and that there is a lovely edit-war going on there. Accredibase is a UK-based commercial online directory of diploma mills created and maintained by Verifile.. Before I get to the issue of whether or not this is a reliable source, a quick scan of its terms and conditions would indicate to me that use of the database is confined to personal or internal use by the subscribers only. In light of that, I would not use it as a source on Misplaced Pages regardless of how reliable it may or may not be. Fladrif (talk) 18:28, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Commercial site. Looks like it is a good site, but WP:RS deprecates ones which require payment. Thus, alas, not usable IMO. The disclaimer is not part of this reasoning, however. Collect (talk) 19:09, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Satinmaster is an s.p.a. determined to discredit Accredibase (or anybody else who questions EUCLID) at any cost; he/she has taken this matter to as many venues as possible, in hopes of getting a favorable (i.e., pro-EUCLID) response. According to our education specialists such as Orlady, this is a reliable source; and while the use of paid information sites is not optimal, it is not a reason for denying us the use of a reliable source. See also Misplaced Pages:Editor assistance/Requests#Accuracy of information on a website and the further links provided there by Dougweller. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:32, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

That's hardly a shock. There is almost always someone closely tied to the institution where there are disputes over unaccredited colleges and universities. Orlady is highly knowledgeable about that general subject matter, and I have great respect for her opinions on such matters. I would think, however, that in this instance there are alternative sources which clearly do meet the requirements of WP:RS, are not paywalled, and do not have restrictions on how subscribers may use their information. These sources would appear to cover the disputed subject matter adequately, and they clearly qualify as reliable sources. Fladrif (talk) 19:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

We have to separate two issues or types of information here before we make judgement.

1. Information published by Accredibase to its paid members. This information is protected by user name and password and therefore not open to the general public. Such information simply cannot be referenced on Misplaced Pages. It will simply not be available for view to the general public reading the Misplaced Pages pages.

2. Information which Accredibase publishes to the public on their website. This information is not for fee and provided as a service to the public.

The argument over the inclusion of Accredibase information on the Misplaced Pages page for Euclid (university) concerns an Accredibase publication which was made public on their website. See here: http://www.accredibase.com/index.php?section=871&page=6001

More that that, this publication includes original documents which Euclid themselves provided to Accredibase. The Accredibase report on the status of Euclid was written as a consequence of Euclid approaching Accredibase and based on factual documents they themselves provided.

It is interesting that now Euclid via the editor Satinmaster are trying to discredit Accredibase in any way they can. We should not give them hand in doing so.

89.241.156.185 (talk) 20:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing inherently wrong with citing information unavailable to the general public; WP:V is clear on that count and this shouldn't even part of the discussion. ElKevbo (talk) 20:32, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

My initial concern was not that the site was paywalled, but that the TOU might bar use of the information. I see now that the information in question was not part of the proprietary database available to subscribers only. So, that is no longer a concern. Taking a brief look at the comments above and the talk page for these articles, I'm also starting to think that there are two competing agendas at work here, both driven by a COI: On the one hand, there is a pretty obvious effort to burnish the article on Euclid and remove anything critical. On the other hand, it looks to me that we also have some IP editors promoting Accredibase and its proprietary website and services. It's a pretty telling thing when one IP editor calls Accredibase "our website" and another protests not that Satinmaster is trying to whitewash the Euclid article but instead "trying to discredit Accredibase in any way they can"., and both IP editors resolve to the same ISP and location. It doesn't incline me to sympathy toward give a hand to either competing agenda. Fladrif (talk) 21:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Neither the TOU nor the paywall are particularly concerning to me. But you're right in that it does seem that there is something fishy going on. I'm out of my depth, though, so I won't comment further unless I can better sort through things to make sense of them. ElKevbo (talk) 21:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

In the past, I've been a bit hesitant to use Accredibase as a source, largely because much of the content they released publicly was self-promotional in nature. However, their work has always seemed solid to me, and I confess to having looked up some of their cited references and used them as sources. In the current situation, the issue is not Accredibase in general, but this report on Euclid University, which is much more thoroughly documented than anything I've previously seen from Accredibase. It seems to me that this report has the attributes of a reliable source. It does not name its human authors, but it's clear what corporate entity stands behind it, and it thoroughly documents its sources and reasoning that went into its conclusions. --Orlady (talk) 05:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Collect, I'm a bit perplexed about your statement that "WP:RS deprecates ones which require payment", and your conclusion that we are barred from citing sources held in private collections or databases only accessible to subscribers. As far as I can tell, there's no guidance on the topic anywhere in WP:RS; meanwhile, WP:V explicitly addresses (and endorses) the use of paywalled sources. While we should prefer free or freely-accessible sources to non-free sources when multiple alternatives are available, non-free databases can still be a valid and reliable source. I can't comment on the quality or reliability of this particular source, but the mere fact that they charge for access doesn't render them ineligible for our use. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:50, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

You are correct - there were discussions at one point on one page or another about using sites which specifically charged to look up information with terms of service barring resuse for any reason (I think D&B was at issue - whether information which their terms of service said could not be retransmitted etc. were a valid cite and whether Misplaced Pages counted as "retransmission"?) I seem to recall that if the terms said one could not reuse the information under the paywall terms that it could not be used on Misplaced Pages. Perhaps someone else could phrase this better? Thanks for the comment. Collect (talk) 02:24, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

See wp:PAYWALL. LeadSongDog come howl! 02:14, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

• This essay, (Reliable sources/Cost) has been around for years. OTOH, I wouldn't consider closed databases produced for profit to meet a number of other required standards for a reliable source, mainly editorial control, being independent review prior to publication either in the scholarly or "commercially viable" mode. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:13, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Euclid under attack?

I think there is an Islamophobic agenda going on against euclid, as several of the more seasoned editors appear to easily swayed to side with anything in critical of euclid, yet immediately rv anything positive. Even an article that appeared in the official journal of the OIC the second largest IGO after the UN, was discounted as an "unreliable" source of info. But that is my opinion, which I assume I am now entitled to because I have been accused of working for euclid several times and nobody has been warned for it. Even I needed to point out the obvious with the IPs posting bad stuff comind from Bedford in the UK. Accredibase is also from Bedford UK. Maybe just a coincidence? But that is my opinion. Also, Accredibase claims to have a "team of experts" who work for them. But nobody from this "expert team" is listed, which is strange.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Satinmaster (talk • contribs)

Accusing experienced, uinivolved editors who disagree with you on sourcing issues of doing so in furterance of an Islamophobic agenda is unlikely to be persuasive. Fladrif (talk) 13:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Joan Shawlee

Hi. Based upon the request of another editor, I would like to know if this reference link is acceptable to confirm the actress in question's date of birth. Given that these records are based on those of the Social Security Administration, while they are not 100% accurate due to either human error (I have a sadly deceased personal acquaintance whose date of birth was January 17, 1935, but appears on SSDI as January 18, 1935) or false dates provided, it appears to be a reliable source, certainly reliable enough to use in the absence of any source. Thanks for your advice. Quis separabit? 19:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm the "another editor" (sounds vaguely naughty). I was noting my concern for its use in this particular article as a review of previous discussions on this board revealed a hesitance to fully accept the reliability of many of the online genealogical databases, and it contradicts the New York Times obituary that I had included as a reference. Jezebel'sPonyo 19:49, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I understand Ponyo's concerns but beg to point out that the Associated Press (AP) merely (and I don't know how) provided an estimated age due to a lack of info. Shawlee was not particularly famous and apparently had no close family or children to provide any date of birth so it was not pursued. However she died in 1987, and we all agree the world has changed a tad since then. In this instance there is no competing year of birth from any reliable or semi-reliable source, only an age estimation from the AP from a quarter century ago.

Just to add my two cents (or five cents, whatever the going rate is these days), it is a tad concerning that information gleaned from such sources as the U.S. Social Security Administration (Social Security Death Index), census records (ancestry.com), Burke's Peerage (thepeerage.org) and the General Registry Office of England and Wales (findmypast.co.uk) are apparently seen by other Misplaced Pages editors and my peers, whom I respect, as generally semi-unreliable sources. There are some editors who rely on Caskets on Parade/Book of the Dead (http://daggy.name/cop/bkofdead/index.htm), which is replete with errors. I believe, as a rule of thumb, then, that unless a competing date/year of birth is proferred from an equally or more reliable source that information gleaned from these sources be allowed to stand until/unless a valid challenge is raised,and then each case be handled on an individual basis. Yours, Quis separabit? 20:07, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I just noticed that you have commented above about findmypast.co.uk and I will put in a reply up there. The case isn't quite the same (I think).

In general, I'd say, it is useful to be able to cite intermediate sources that mirror or reflect solid reliable sources that are otherwise inaccessible online. I think, if we are confident that the mirroring is reliably done, we should be prepared to use such citations. As we do, for example, with Google Books and archive.org. Of course it's much less attractive, and less useful to our readers, if these intermediate sites set up a paywall. In such a case, they are not in fact increasing the general availability of the information. So, without banning paysites, we should prefer sites that are free and contain reliable information. Andrew Dalby 09:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh I agree. I don't like having to spend my own money buying credits, etc. Findmypast.co.uk is £6 for like 50 credits or something (I don't remember exactly) and Intelius is $1.95 per individual search (it's cheaper if you buy a package, but I choose not to since I don't use it that often), but it is what it is. Sometimes curiosity or the need to confirm something leads me to have to pay. Isn't that what information is coming to anyway, like the New York Times's digitization? Yours, Quis separabit? 21:45, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Mmm ... I know what you mean; but we don't quite know whether it's going that way or not. The jury's out. There is also vastly more free information on the Web than there was, say, three years ago. Since we as Wikipedians are providing free information, our best friends are other good sites that provide free information :) Andrew Dalby 09:34, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Hah, so the California Death index at Rootsweb gives the same date but 1927 as a YOB. Perhaps a footnote would work in the article? – Connormah (talk) 04:01, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Chiswick w4.com

I'm not sure what this is. Can somebody look into it. It is meant to be the local website of Chiswick in the UK. I want to know if this particular article can be used a source. They announced in the article that an actor had been casting into a TV series. Would this count as a reliable source to use for casting information?Rain the 1 22:48, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean that it's the "local website of Chiswick in the UK". As near as I can tell, this is a website of w4.com, which is a PR firm. I can't tell if the "article" you've linked to is from a legitimate news source that is being forwarded by the site, or if it's a thinly-disguised press release, presumably for the school. Either way, I'd be inclined to say that this is not a RS. Fladrif (talk) 23:03, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I should of phrased it something along the lines of a website covering information about Chiswick. The information turned out to be 100% correct - so it is a unfortunate that it doesn't meet RS.Rain the 1 00:16, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily unfortunate. I mean, if you have verified that it was in fact correct using other reliable sources then this one is merely irrelevant. Plenty of unreliable sources nonetheless contain correct statements, even when they are self-published or the UK gutter press etc! - Sitush (talk) 06:40, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

NLP in teaching and education

Can someone independent please comment on the acceptability of this source for the article on Neuro-linguistic programming especially in the context of teaching:

• Carey, J., Churches, R., Hutchinson, G., Jones, J. and Tosey, P. (2009) (foreword by John West-Burnham) Neuro-linguistic programming and learning: teacher case studies on the impact of NLP in education, Reading: CfBT Education Trust.

In their abstract the authors conclude that:

• "All of the case studies demonstrate significant impact in relation to teacher development, with many demonstrating positive impacts on pupil learning outcomes. The paper also contains the first systematic and comprehensive literature review of research evidence into the impact of NLP in education and discusses the content of 111 papers and references including quantitative and qualitative research evidence. The majority of published work was found to be supportive of the use of NLP in schools and education although, as the authors point out, this should only be considered as an interim finding because of the wide range of methods used and variations in the quality of some of the research." (from Abstract p.4) pdf link

This should be considered in the context of the:

• "occasional critical academic commentaries (Marcus and Choi, 1994; Craft, 2001), brief critical comments (Lisle, 2005; Burton, 2007) and at least one negative discussion in the popular press (e.g. Beadle, 2008) on the use of NLP in education." (Carey, Churches, Hutchinson, Jones, and Tosey, 2009 p.9).

• It can also be considered in the context of this conclusion by lecturer in psychology Roderique-Davies (2009) that:

• "after three decades, there is still no credible theoretical basis for NLP, researchers having failed to establish any evidence for its efficacy that is not anecdotal." (cited in the abstract, cited in Carey and others, 2009 as: Roderique-Davies (2009) "Neuro-linguistic programming: cargo cult psychology?", Journal of Applied Research in Higher Education, Vol. 1 Iss: 2, pp.58 - 63 doi:10.1108/17581184200900014.

• The differing conclusions become evident in this statement by Roderique-Davies (2009):

• "The core ideas of NLP from the mid 1970s were mostly discredited in the 1980s. Sharpley (1984) reviewed the research to date concerning NLPs assertion of a PRS and concluded that that there was little evidence for the use of a PRS in NLP, with much data to the contrary."(Roderique-Davies 2009, p.2).

In contrast Carey et al (2009) state that:

• ""the most recent peer-reviewed survey of the literature on NLP eye accessing cues argues that there is substantial grounds for further research and the need to identify appropriate research designs that avoid some of the methodological issues in many of the early studies (Diamantopoulos, Woolley and Spann, 2009)."...In conclusion they state that "the body of early quantitative education-related research in the 1980s generally appears to have failed to take into account that the effectiveness of NLP is likely to be the result of the application of several approaches at once (rather than isolated techniques) together with the context."

--122.x.x.x (talk) 03:10, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I reformatted the above to improve the ability of RS/N editors to comment. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:27, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Its worth noting that cfbt offer NLP training and one of the authors (at least) is an NLP practitioner. Given the report is self-published by a training providor its not really an independent source and would not stack up per WP:WEIGHT against material in refereed journals. It could be considered promotional. That said there is some useful material in there. To my mind it all depends on what edit you want it to support. --Snowded 02:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

CfBT Education Trust is more respectable than simply self-published source but not as reliable as a high impact peer-reviewed journal. The Journal of Applied Research in Higher Education in which Roderique-Davies (2009) published is relatively new and has not developed an impact factor. The argument by Carey et al (2009, see quote above) rests on a critique of early research by Diamantopoulos, Woolley, and Spann (2009) which was presented at a NLP research conference sponsored by University of Surrey. Am I correct in saying that to hold much WP:WEIGHT, a critique such as that by Diamantopoulos, Woolley, and Spann (2009) would need to be published in a peer-reviewed journal rather than a university sponsored research conference dedicated to NLP? I wonder if this could be considered a valid source for a (tiny) minority view as per the WP:WEIGHT. --122.x.x.x (talk) 05:39, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

This seems to be a WEIGHTing issue. My advice is to obtain copies of everything mentioned in the "literature review" section of that commissioned report, and then obtain all literature review looking stuff mentioned in those. And then comparatively evaluate them. I'd suggest adding a journal quality factor to your WEIGHTing of the multiple reviews. I would suggest that a commissioned report, by an organisation supporting the technique discussed in the report, be weighted poorly for its conclusions. However, there is the obvious, "Academics contest both the validity and efficacy of NLP" and then going into the details of the contestation. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:23, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Plagiarism vs. third party publication, RS or not?

Question: If a newspaper article is a blatant copyvio of a primary source (i.e., a verbatim copy of a primary source), can one claim that the newspaper article is a reliable third party source for the information?

Some context:

1. User:TopGun added several references to back a claim in the article Rashid Minhas.
2. I showed that the original source of the info is a COI/POV source (the subject's employer/Pakistan Airforce), and the other references either copied from it verbatim sans any attribution, or are from the non-RS Pakdef.info site (See here for the consensus on Pakdef.info's non-RS nature).
3. TopGun now claims that, since he considers one of the venues of the plagiarized content to be a notable news source, therefore the information has been "published" by a reputable reliable source, and hence can be used directly without qualifiers.

My question is: when a news article demonstrably plagiarizes from a primary source (and has no content other than the copy-pasted text), does it become (a) a third party source for the information, and (b) a reliable source for the information?

More details of the context can be found here. --Ragib (talk) 09:58, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

A copyvio is not "cured" by saying "someone else committed it". If it is a copyvio, it is a copyvio. If we know it is a copyvio, then it is still a copyvio. Collect (talk) 12:26, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

This isn't an issue of a copyright violation, and to call it plagiarism is to misconstrue what is really going on. Having glanced at the RSN Archive linked above, I see more heat than light. I see this situation as comparable to the instances, which we see all the time here, of a press release simply being printed by a news organization verbatim, without it being identified as a press release. The best practice in such instances is for us to treat the publication of something by a legitimate news organization as a RS but, where we know it is a press release, attribute it even if the news organization does not. Fladrif (talk) 14:59, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

If the work is a verbatim copy of a primary source, treat the work as primary (and note in the citation, what the source copied is). Republication of a primary source does not change its primary nature. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Re-publication of a press release is not necessarily a copyright violation. People issue them for the express purpose of getting them published, after all.

What changes when the periodical re-published the press release (perhaps verbatim, perhaps with minimal tweaking) is not the primary-secondary-tertiary nature of the source—it's still a primary source, and you may still WP:USEPRIMARY sources in limited ways—but the addition of editorial oversight and subjecting the content to the same (perhaps minimal) fact-checking that the publication normally employs. That means that it is technically a legitimately published news story (and still a primary source).

We have had a problem in the past with editors saying, "Oh, but I magically know that they didn't fact-check this paragraph in this newspaper story, so we can't use that material", and that's Not Okay. If the newspaper editor approved the story, then you have to assume that it meets their (possibly low) standards. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:16, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I think there is a confusion here. There was NO press release. The news site essentially lifted content verbatim off the Pakistan Army/Air Force's website without any attribution. --Ragib (talk) 22:42, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

An organization might issue the same text in several forms, for example, as a press release and on its web site. The fact that a newspaper article is virtually the same as an organization's web site does not prove, by itself, the newspaper didn't get the information from a press release. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:13, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

No confusion. I didn't say this was a matter of reprinting a press release; I said that this was comparable to reprinting a press release. I think that, in this context, the issues and analysis at RSN should be pretty much the same as with reprinting a press release. Fladrif (talk) 14:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Authorhouse, LuLu self-published items

In Talk:Josephus_on_Jesus#The_History_of_the_subject_matter I see the start of a long self-publishing debate. I am getting tired of checking every single self-publsher, and authors such Cresswell who were previously determined as less than WP:RS. Comments on the use of Authorhouse, Lulu (company), Cresswell, etc. will be appreciated on that talk page. Thank you. History2007 (talk) 11:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Added it to my watchlist. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:02, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I have extensively commented. I'm not aware of theologically specific source advice, but regarding the history and classics content, WP:HISTRS provides expert advice on what to cite to establish historical claims. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:14, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Unlimited Publishing LLC

I'm attempting to include content from Fatal Distraction: The War On Drugs In The Age Of Islamic Terror by Arnold S. Trebach, an author who has also published through Yale and according to an Amazon blurb was considered for a Nobel Prize as a result of his work on drug policy. I'm frankly having difficulty with the article on Virgil Miller Newton, with good faith efforts to find and include reliable sources rapidly reverted for BLP concerns, and no attempts made to help in securing acceptable sources . Suggestions welcome. 99.12.241.215 (talk) 16:00, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The source can be used for his opinion, attribute it. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:24, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Unlimited Publishing LLC is a small press, but not a vanity press, so this is not a SPS. The author is widely published elsewhere, including articles in scholarly journals that have been extensively cited by other scholars. Agree with Darkness Shines, the source can be used for the author's opinions on the subject, with appropriate attribution. Fladrif (talk) 16:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

But it was used as a claim of fact. Ascribe the opinion to the person at most. Collect (talk) 16:44, 31 January 2012 (UTC) And the publisher states: Worldwide royalty book publisher using print-on-demand and e-Book publishing technologies to slash costs. Collect (talk) 16:46, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

If it may be admitted as opinion--that is to say, the record of settlements in two cases, according to Trebach--would Collect be so good as to restore said content in a fashion that finds consensus? Since Misplaced Pages is based on civility, this would constitute a nice balance with respect to the previous deletions, and would evidence an interest in both neutrality and good faith. Cheers, 99.12.241.215 (talk) 16:51, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

A royalty book publisher isn't a vanity press. Most reputable publishers are royalty publishers. It says that authors are never charged: Writers pay no fees. Neither readers nor writers are charged inflated prices for books. I agree that the statements should be attributed, in particular, now that I look at the text at issue, the author is, among other things, characterizing two lawsuit settlements as the largest of their kind, which is a claim that is extraordinary, and should be supported by impeccable sourcing. But, with attribution, I think this source is OK. Fladrif (talk) 16:57, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

1. No mention of him ever being in 'contention" for a "Nobel Prize" in any reliable source. 2. He is noted basically as an advocate for legalization of drugs. 3. He is not noted as an expert on rehabilitation centers except to the extent that he favours legalization of drug use. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Given his positions as chief of the Administration of Justice Section, U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, 1960-63, Chief Consultant on Administration of Justice, White House Conference on Civil Rights, 1965-66, and member of the Maryland State Advisory Committee to the Commission on Civil Rights, the characterization of Mr. Trebach as noted basically as an advocate for legalization of drugs is spurious--this is an expert on civil rights and justice. I submit that Collect's interest does not relate solely to BLP concerns, otherwise he would have been far more circumspect in the above. Please disabuse me of the notion that political bias is at play here, and restore content, as I've suggested above. Cheers, 99.12.241.215 (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:SPS says, "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". Note that the book includes material from the author's 1993 book Legalize It?, published by the American University Press, part of Georgetown University Press. It wiould seem to meet the criteria for rs. TFD (talk) 17:28, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The author has a J.D. and a Ph.D. (the later from Princeton), has been a professor at American University for 25 years, and has published extensively on drug policies around the globe. His books on the very topic have been published by Yale UP, AUP, and Macmillan. You will be hard-pressed to find anybody more qualified to comment on this issue. And the book in question is not even self-published to begin with. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:58, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

(Just checking: his PhD is in a relevant discipline, and his period of academic labour was in a relevant field?) Fifelfoo (talk) 21:16, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

He writes that his dissertation "dealt with injustices in the administration of criminal justice." The Ph.D. was apparently in Politics. At American, he was "a professor in the Center for the Administration of Justice." Hipocrite (talk) 21:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I erred in looking at the publisher of Print on Demand books as being self-published - the author is still primarily an exponent of drug legalization, which may be relevant to how he regards drug rehab and detox programs. Mea culpa. Collect (talk) 01:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC) Collect (talk) 01:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you erred, but there is a real relationship. With the spreading of the business model of Unlimited Publishing LLC, there will be fewer true self-publishers in the future, but it won't get any easier for us to determine reliablity -- the books come from the same pool. Andrew Dalby 10:48, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

About the Nobel nomination: Nominations are worthless. All you need to get nominated is one (1) university professor, anywhere in the world, to send one letter to the Nobel committee. Right now, from the US, getting nominated will cost you one piece of paper, one envelope, and a $1.05 international first-class stamp.

They won't release the list of actual nominees for half a century, so another marketing approach is to just tell lies: anybody can say that he was nominated, and nobody can disprove it for at least another 49 years. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:09, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Notice:Discussion on change in policy at WP:MEDRS

A policy change is under discussion at WP:MEDRS here(olive (talk) 20:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC))

MLM Watchdog

Can MLM Watchdog www.mlmwatchdog.com be considered a reliable source? I am attempting to update the article on Patrick Flanagan in reference to a lawsuit, and since (for some reason that completely evades my common sense) a FORM 8-K on the SEC web site apparently cannot be used as a primary source (despite it consisting of only two short paragraphs, written in easy-to-understand English), I am looking for alternatives. Thanks. Peter raines (talk) 06:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Generally speaking it would not be a good source. It's a blog and thus WP:SPS. Where in the blog is the reference to the lawsuit? Maybe it is sourced to something else. --Luke Warmwater101 (talk) 15:07, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed - it is clearly a blog, with no editorial oversight to allow it to be used as a reliable source.  Leef5   15:45, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

And, as one of the editors concerned with BLP issues on this article, if it can't be sourced to major news media, I'm dubious about it being in a BLP. Dougweller (talk) 10:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

montaguemillennium.com

A lovely site maintained by the Montague family, I'm dubious though that it is a reliable source - used in several articles (sometimes just as an EL) but I can't find anything in Google books, for instance, that makes me feel that it should be used as a source. Dougweller (talk) 16:38, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Agree. It is a lovely site, but basically a SPS. No indication that the author/webmaster is an established expert previously published by a reliable, third party publisher in the relevant field. Doesn't fall within the exeception for non-expert SPS writing solely about himself, as it principally is being used as a source for information about third parties. Not a RS for Misplaced Pages, but a very nice site nonetheless. Fladrif (talk) 16:51, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Karin Ikas, Gerhard Wagner, Communicating in the Third Space, 2008, p. 182.

The text is quoted in Adam Mickiewicz as a prove that he was "Polish-Lithuanian". See: Google Books. The text says "Polish-Lithuanian poet" and discusses what Mickiewicz writes about Poland and Poles, it dooesn't discuss his roots or Lithuanian language competences. The text doesn't define the meaning od "Polish-Lithuanian":

• ethnically or legally Polish and Lithuanian (modern)
• born in Grand Duchy of Lithuania, formerly in Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. Xx236 (talk) 08:59, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The article doesn't "prove" anything of course. I don't suppose you could prove the validity of such a term. As something to cite, among other citations, during a discussion of whether Mickiewicz is to be called "Polish-Lithuanian" or not, this is very good, I think: highly relevant article, academic author specialising in the subject (this is the author), academic publisher. Andrew Dalby 13:40, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The article isn't about "Polish-Lithuanian". It's about something different. There are many texts discussing the subject, eg. , ,, , , why to use Wagner? Because a search "Polish-Lithuanian" lists it? Xx236 (talk) 12:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Which sources to choose, and how many, is for discussion on the article talk page, I suggest. This is the reliable sources noticeboard; you asked about the reliability of one article. Andrew Dalby 14:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Neuroquantology

Is Neuroquantology a reliable source? The journal appears to be a quite low rated journal and I suspect it is fringe. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Comparing these results to these I'd have to agree. It has all the hallmarks of a walled garden. LeadSongDog come howl! 20:11, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Is news aggregator Yahoo News...

...RS for a presidential campaign article cite? E.g. this edit, which cites the Tampa Bay News, which itself cites Yahoo News as its source. Writegeist (talk) 21:24, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The same anon IP user has added more: Writegeist (talk) 22:08, 2 February 2012 (UTC) And I have removed the IP's cites to the Ron Paul campaign website and Twitter. Writegeist (talk) 22:17, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd say it should be removed as undue weight, with the reliability of the source being secondary. Someone stepped on someone else's foot? Not worth space in an article on a presidential campaign, unless it can be shown as part of a pattern, or the candidate himself doing it, or something like that. --GRuban (talk) 23:02, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's a reliable source but the issue here is with undue weight. It seems like too minor of an incident to include in that article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:23, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I see nothing to indicate that Yahoo News as such is a reliable source. News aggregators by definition do not exercise editorial judgement, but rather shovel the garbage onto the conveyor belt. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree, Orangemike, that's also my understanding - no editorial judgement/oversight. Also agree that, as GRuban and AQFK point out, WP:UNDUE most likely applies in this instance, regardless of source. Writegeist (talk) 00:34, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Portuguese Hawaiian Roots for Bio info on Brian Haberlin

Is this webpage an rs for this edit? Nightscream (talk) 08:38, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Your second link above is mis-pasted, but I think I see which edit you mean. What a subject says about himself and his family origins on his own webpage or blog is potentially usable. To the extent that this is about family history rather than himself we simply can't know how historically reliable it is, but it's still very good material about his view of himself. I guess I would accept the material into the text but also add the source in the text, e.g. "According to Haberlin's family history site, ..."

Seems as though he is maybe editing the page himself? I don't (yet) see any POV or COI problem, though. Andrew Dalby 09:17, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

You're saying that that blog is Haberlin's own blog? Nightscream (talk) 12:14, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I understood it to be his own family history site. Was I mistaken? Andrew Dalby 12:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, hmm, maybe it isn't his. I don't know now. And yet our user User:Ihaberlin is happily citing it ... there must be some connection ... I suggest a friendly approach to Ihaberlin, are you Brian Haberlin, is that your site, did you write that page? Because, if he did write it, that's OK. Any further question would be more for the BLP board than for us, but it is reliable material on his view of himself. Andrew Dalby 14:34, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, if that's his blog, yeah. I sent a question to that blog's webmaster, but haven't gotten a response yet. I'll try asking Ihaberlin himself. However, asking Ihaberlin if he is Brian Haberlin wouldn't be acceptable in itself, wouldn't it, since it would have to be verified some way. Right? Nightscream (talk) 03:53, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Nightscream, I'm hoping some other denizen of this page will look in here. I'm more familiar with people who have been dead 2000 years, I'm not the best adviser on BLPs and their special problems :) Andrew Dalby 09:17, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Does the popular science book "Trick or Treatment" qualify an analytic claim?

The claim is "There is no evidence that acupuncture points, meridans or other concepts involved in traditional Chinese medicine exist." (sic) According to WP policy, such claims can only be justified with secondary sources. The claim is made in the intro in Emotional Freedom Technique. As such, it isn't just uncompromising, it also implies that any therapies suggesting acupuncture points and meridians as a mechanism are ineffective.

After someone else's edit was insta-reverted, I softened the claim to "There is little evidence that acupuncture points, meridians or other concepts involved in traditional Chinese medicine exist." This was also insta-reverted.

To my mind, the original statements were designed to be popular for the book's audience rather than a accurate scientific summary of research.

There are two notable reasons to doubt the uncompromising nature of both the claim and the original statements. Firstly, a Cochrane review concluded that a particular acupuncture technique is as effective as medication for nausea.

Separately, a meta-analysis stated that electrical impedance studies are "suggestive" of a physical basis for acupuncture points and meridians. Mindjuicer (talk) 16:17, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

You're falling into a logical error when you state "...implies that any therapies suggesting acupuncture points and meridians as a mechanism are ineffective." That's not true. In theory a method can be effective, even when the explanation is nonsensical. Medical history is replete with many such cases. In this case the explanation is pseudoscientific since there is no proof of the anatomical existence of acupuncture points or meridians. If efficacy is ever proven for acupuncture, the explanation must be something else. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:56, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Almost all popular science books are secondary sources, including Trick or Treatment, and they are permitted for general statements like this.

You might like to read some of the explanations about how to identify secondary sources, such as WP:Party and person or WP:USINGPRIMARY. Being a pop sci book does not make the source primary, just like being a serious peer-reviewed journal article does not make the paper secondary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:20, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Implication means 'what is likely to be inferred'. And lack of proof is not proof of lack. Efficacy for one technique in acupuncture was concluded in a Cochrane review. Do you know what that means?

Also there's quite a lot of difference between pseudoscience and protoscience. The former is claiming scientific validation where there is none. Every validated and accepted science today started off as protoscience. Mindjuicer (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

More to the point, Edzard Ernst is as close as you'll ever find to "the" authoritative expert on this topic. Lots of secondary sources are written by hacks and are consequently unreliable. This isn't such a case. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:32, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I think this claim is badly expressed. Obviously acupuncture points exist. They are points on the body. "Meridians" in a certain sense also exist, as lines drawn through the body. However, the concept of "meridian" in medicine belongs to an earlier period of science, or pre-science, or proto-science. This seems to be an appropriate source; we just need to summarise it carefully. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:34, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

He actually states it as plainly as it can be stated. You just need to understand what he means by "exist". The "idea" and "belief" definitely exists, but there is no evidence of their existence in the human body. They are not histological realities. Medical science is silent about their supposed existence (the only (pseudo)"medical" textbooks that mention them are alternative medicine texts which blend fact and fantasy). Claiming that they exist doesn't make them actually exist. They are metaphysical figments of the imagination. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

He proudly proclaims himself a "true skeptic", has joined CSICOP and seems to be on a crusade. Personally, I prefer sources who are a little less attached to proving one side or the other. Mindjuicer (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Is the source based purely on primary sources or does it include the author's own opinions? I am talking about the latter. Clearly, some sources will be secondary in parts and primary in other parts. Mindjuicer (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like you have strong personal beliefs about this subject. Under Misplaced Pages's policies, an editor's disagreement with a source's point of view is irrelevant. So your dislike of the source because one of the authors is a self-proclaimed "true skeptic", or because it disagrees with your own beliefs and experiences, is irrelevant.

The purpose of RSN is to determine whether the named source is adequate for the statement being made, not to figure out what WP:The Truth is about acupuncture. This source appears to be adequate for the statement being made. Additionally, it appears that many other reliable sources make very similar claims about the lack of evidence for any physical basis behind such points, including sources that are very much "pro-acupuncture", like ISBN 9780195383461 (p. 101), so the source is not only reliable for this statement, but the statement itself is very likely WP:DUE. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:27, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Lets put it this way. Just in 2011, review papers on accupuncture that he authored or coauthored were published in: J Pain PMID 21093382, Int J Cardiol PMID 21093944, Clin Rheumatal PMID 21331532, J Dent PMID 21354460, Chin J Integr Med PMID 21359919, Int J Cardiol PMID 21421272, J Acupunct Meridian Stud PMID 21440874, Eur J Gen Pract PMID 21463162, Chin J Integr Med PMID 21509667, Am J Chin Med PMID 21598411, and Maturitas PMID 21782365. In each case, the subject matter was appropriate to the journal. In 2010 the lengthy list included NEJM, CMAJ, Lancet Oncol, and J Neurol Sci. Each of these journals' editors saw fit to publish these reviews. Why should we consider him less printworthy than they did? LeadSongDog come howl! 21:51, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I already gave you a secondary source which contradicts the claim. Mindjuicer (talk) 14:59, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Simple, because those were peer-reviewed and judged by a reliable third party to be scientifically worthy of print. This is also known as 'science'. Mindjuicer (talk) 14:59, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Another genealogy site - roglo.eu

Is this site reliable? It has no indicia of reliability, not even an About to explain what it is, who manages it, etc. The domain's registrant is listed as "not disclosed" (). An IP has twice added an Ancestry section to the Joseph Fiennes article (this version). I have twice removed it because, regardless of the reliability of the source, it's an absurd section to have in the article. But it would be helpful to have confirmation that the source is also unreliable.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:07, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Not reliable for Joseph Fiennes ancestry; not reliable for any ancestry claim I can imagine. No editorial board, responsibility, policy. No evidence of fact checking. User sourced database. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:14, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

University of Texas at San Antonio and Univision Channel 41 "News of the Day"

The UTSA published a story about a prison program founded by Prem Rawat being run at the local prison and Univision Channel 41, the largest Spanish speaking network in the US, followed up with a news segment about the program which included Prem Rawat speaking. The clip with English translation can be found here. I would like to include a section from the UTSA article in the Prem Rawat article but some editors say that these are not proper sources. Advice please.Momento (talk) 23:41, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

1. Diamantopoulos, G., Woolley, S.I. and Spann, M. (2009) A critical review of past research into the neuro-linguistic programming eye-accessing cues model, in P. Tosey, P. (ed.), Current research in NLP, vol 1: proceedings of the first international NLP research conference, University of Surrey, 2008, ANLP International.

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