Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:44, 5 February 2012

There are many aspects of Misplaced Pages's governance that seem to me to be at best ill-considered and at worst corrupt, and little recognition that some things need to change.

I appreciate that there are many good, talented, and honest people here, but there are far too many who are none of those things, concerned only with the status they acquire by doing whatever is required to climb up some greasy pole or other. I'm out of step with the way things are run here, and at best grudgingly tolerated by the children who run this site. I see that as a good thing, although I appreciate that there are others who see it as an excuse to look for any reason to block me, as my log amply demonstrates.

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Wrapping Up

We are wrapping up the project and heading south for the winter. The essential piece to the projects success is collaboration. My students were fortunate to have such an outstanding editor willing to express an interest in their work. That was the catalyst that keep them engaged. Your patience, tolerance, and tact is remarkable. Incidentally, the class has been monitoring this "trial" and very much wanted to weigh in on your behalf. I advised them to stay out of the politics; but know, you have both theirs an my support. On another note, I am unable to allocate the time to effectively monitor the students second semester. One or two have expressed an interest in an FA attempt; although I am not offering any academic incentives. There will be no 2012 Project... I've decided to pack-up the podium. I had hoped someone in the English Department would step in; however, they have heard me rant and rave for the last 4 years thus will not take the bait. I plan some post project analysis as promised to gain insight on reasonable student to mentor ratios to help those mentoring such projects determine a reasonable balance. Hopefully, I will not be the last high school to give this a go. Again, on behalf of a backwater high school on the edge of no-where, our sincere expression of appreciation.--JimmyButler (talk) 20:18, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Wish you had posted the above as a piece of evidence on behalf of your class. While I appreciate and think the guidance for the class not to get involved, I do think it could have been meaningful to have you represent the class in a comment. But alas, this is why I think Malleus is of benefit to the project. He can be a rude SOB when somebody gets on his bad side, but the perponderance of his edits are to improve the project. I have zero doubt that he wants to improve WP.---Balloonman 20:37, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm rather touched by the idea of your students wanting to get stuck in on my behalf, but you were quite right to dissuade them. I think that what you and they have achieved is quite remarkable, perhaps particularly this last year. If I survive this ordeal I'll be more than happy to help any of them who fancy tilting at an FAC, and if I don't, well, at least we achieved something worthwhile. And Balloonman, you are of course quite right, I can give at least as good as I get, and no matter what ArbCom decides I'm not going to change. It's Misplaced Pages that has to change, not me. Malleus Fatuorum 20:52, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

And Balloonman, why the "alas" in your observation? Sounds like you still want to get rid of me. Malleus Fatuorum 20:58, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

No it was because he didn't make the comments and at this point it is too late for him to do so... I just hope that some Arbs are watching this page and see his comments, because this is the type of thing that you don't get credit for.---Balloonman 05:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

It is a shame that at least that project's co-ordinator couldn't put that in as evidence, even if the students themselves were best left out of it. Malleus, having trawled through waaaay too many of your edits, I have to say that it seems extremely rare (negligibly rare) for you to snark without provocation, though the provocation may not necessarily be immediately apparent to people looking at just one or two surrounding edits. In terms of percentages, I truly don't believe that your snark-percentage is any worse that that of several other of our less-patient editors, though clearly if I could provide you with some anti-snark magic I would gladly do so! I understand why you snark, when you you do; at the same time I also understand why it would be better (mainly for you!) if your internal snark-monster were a bit less trigger-happy ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 12:05, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I could use a bit of that snark-dust myself. MF, good luck to you in hopes of a fair outcome. My76Strat (talk) 12:11, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

The times I've found myself wishing for some anti-snark pixie-dust in my dealings with mother! I feel I need do no more than to point out the background of professional actress-singer-dancer, high intelligence, occasionally-violent dementia, and to add to the delightful cocktail stir in the fact that we're functioning down / up at the red-headed women region of the feistiness spectrum, and I can leave the rest to your imaginations! Fortunately, she only weighs about five and a half stone, so despite having Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome and hence extraordinarily supple, though she can be a right handful, at least she can't (literally) throw her weight about too uncontrollably! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 13:11, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

O_O ... Facepalm ... ok ... now I've seen it all. — Ched :  ?  15:00, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh malleus, about the "Alas" comment... I think you might find the following edit of interest Notice the date of the edit too...---Balloonman 02:33, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Peer review of Pope John Paul II

Hi Malleus, I thought you might be interested in participating in this peer review. Kind Regards -- Marek.69 01:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Malleus, do you have any comments on the article? -- Marek.69 09:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid not. Malleus Fatuorum 16:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, thank you Malleus. :-) -- Marek.69 18:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

If you're still knocking about...

Pain fitzJohn could use your wonderful massaging powers. (Wonder if that'll get Moni over here making comments...). Baldwin will hit FAC soon, hopefully this week, but RL has been biting my butt all weekend. At one point, I even exclaimed "Bloody hell" .. which tells me Im either watching too much BBC or I've been hanging around Brits too long... Ealdgyth - Talk 00:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Ooooh, can I have your wonderful massaging powers, too, please? ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:20, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid I tend to be a bit on the rough side, so I'm told. I watched a rather interesting programme on BBC4 last night, which you may have seen, "Survivors: lust for life". It's about a female documentary director from Rochdale who goes into hospital for a routine thyroid operation only to be told a few weeks later that she's got cancer. It's basically about how she, her family and her friends deal with that bombshell. It's got a happy ending, at least for her, but if you can access it via the BBC's iPlayer just count the number of times she says "fucking this", or "fucking that". She draws up a bucket list, and towards the end of the film she leaves a message to her cancer: "Bugger off!". The link is here, but I guess it'll only work if you're in the UK. Malleus Fatuorum 21:15, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Barbara Ehrenreich wrote another great piece, "Welcome to Cancerland", about her experiences as a breast-cancer patient, which she turned into another great book:

• Bright-sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America (2009). In the United Kingdom this book is called Smile Or Die: How Positive Thinking Fooled America and the World 9 January 2010 Guardian/UK

Barbara (Ph.D., biology, Rockefeller U.) would last about one day here before the civility police indef'ed her.

Malleus, you should write a book based on your experiences here. It could be made into a movie co-directed by Christopher Noland and Tim Burton.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:35, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Amusing

Given all the uproar over language and other "civility" issues, I thought you might appreciate that I just got called "uncivil" for writing an edit summary that said: "Sentence structure, people, please" after correcting some very strange grammar. Deary, deary me. I know I have a long way to go before I'm in your league, Malleus, but apparently I'm well on my way.--TEHodson 00:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The situation here is crazy and self-destructive. Misplaced Pages has to try and deal with it, but inevitably it won't. Malleus Fatuorum 01:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

As the valley girls would say: "fer shure, fer shure". Wiki never really solves anything, the power cliques just push people aroundPumpkinSky talk 01:23, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

A recent quote reminded me of your situation:

"When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign,

{{{1}}}that the dunces are all against him."

I know that you will not be able to accept the title of genius, you are indeed too modest, but nonetheless - it isn't what you say/do/are, its what people think you said/did/are that matters. Chaosdruid (talk) 03:24, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Old-fashioned traditional British eccentric, I think ;) And clearly not lacking in smarts, either. And quite probably, technically, at the genius level, if one believes in levels. What I want to know is whether MF has the regulation tweed jacket with leather elbow-patches, the pipe, and the Nutty Professor Hair. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

No tweed jacket, I don't smoke, and my hair veers between the style of a defendant and a prosecuting barrister, as I'm an irregular visitor to my barber. Malleus Fatuorum 15:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

My hair ... well ... it's hair, is about the best I can say of it! You know those people who complain about having a double crown? They're lucky. Try seven for a real pig's ear! Nutty Professor Hair would be a humungous improvement, for me. And I haz a tweed jacket :o) It's the horsey variety! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:07, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Kudpung's latest baiting of Malleus

A thought for you!

Well, at least it's a novel approach to achieving Kudpung's evident goal of eliminating all opposition at every RfA. - Malleus Fatuorum The only thing I would like to eliminate from Misplaced Pages is MF's novel approach to communication. If he wants to offend to make offence a skill, it's a bit late to redeem time when men think least he will. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:21, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Discussion of Kudpung's passive-aggressive baiting

There are far worse people; probably just not so high-profile. Trouble is, once someone's become high-profile, they're an obvious target. People notice Malleus because he's Malleus; they pick up on and react to things which they would ignore in other people. Sad, but true. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:49, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

And you're saying MF doesn't have targets? Thing is, he aims when they're not looking. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

And you do have targets, one of which is obviously MF. A pointy message on MF's talkpage disguised as a wikilove message could be described as baiting. Not very nice under the circumstances, certainly appalling for an admin.J3Mrs (talk) 10:04, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Yuk --Epipelagic (talk) 11:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Kudpung just blamed Malleus for driving away "another editor/admin" today on Pesky's talk page, with no evidence, per his usual m.o.

Attacking his betters and enabling other mediocrities gives him purpose.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Purpose? I see him mainly advocating that any presumptuous content editor who makes a constructive criticism of any administrator or administrator wannabee, or of the process of electing an administrator, or worse, has the gall to offer a constructive alternative to the current administration structure, should be blocked. It seems to me that if Kudpung has his way, all development on Misplaced Pages would cease, and all content editors, worthless as they are, would join together in reverential worship of the current administrators. I naturally hasten to add, in this fraught environment, that this observation does not in any sense imply a criticism, and is merely a detached observation. --Epipelagic (talk) 12:56, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Presumably Kudpung is referring to himself? If so, a net gain for the project I think. Malleus Fatuorum 15:04, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• From what I can read of "export beer" I wouldn't suggest that this was "disguised as a wikilove message." Your tastes in beer and backhanded insults may vary. Fifelfoo (talk) 12:23, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• The slogan "Hey kids, let's put on a show" was more successful than Kudpung et alia's announcement of RfA Deform---a plan to grab power from writers and give it to babes in arms, users with short records of negligible writing. Sycophantic suggestions that the talk-page missives of Jimbo Wales were "essential reading" inspired confidence proportional to Jimbo's editing, i.e. little.

  May Kudpung return from his Misplaced Pages vacation more mindful of Johnny One Note, who

  sang out with gusto

  and just o-

  -verloaded the place.

  Poor Johnny one-note

  yelled willy nilly

  Until he was blue in the face,

  For holding one note was his ace.

  Couldn’t hear the brass,

  Couldn’t hear the drum,

  He was in a class

  By himself, by gum!"

  Johnny One Note needed help from those who could listen to the brass, the drum, and the audience---those who were not musically autistic. Perhaps those with a painful record of mistaking the talk pages at RfA Deform and user:Jimbo Wales for community will should get help from those who are not politically autistic.

  Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:26, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• I want that magic wand of niceness. It's a bit sad; I've always got on very well with Kudpung. His heart is very much in the right place. I think the trouble with Wikiland is that none of us can get together for a beer – thing would be very different, I think, if we knew who each other were. That's probably grammatically incorrect, but y'all know what I mean. You never know, we might actually find we liked a few more people. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:03, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• Do you have an explanation for his misleading and slanderous posting here? Malleus Fatuorum 17:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what the background to this is. It seems a bit out of character, to me. One of the major points of RfA Reform was to discourage people from nomming themselves, or accepting a nomination, if they really weren't ready for adminship. One of the best ways to cut down the snark in that snarkfest would be to ensure that the snarkworthy weren't nominated in the first place, heh! Kudpung's never (AFAIK) been pro-baby-admins himself. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Let me suggest the background to you; ArbCom are deliberating this week and Kudpung has seized an opportunity to tighten the screw by propagating the lie that I am driving editors away. Malleus Fatuorum 17:28, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Surely, now that the ArbCom is in "closed session" no furher evidence, whether accurate or not, can even be considered. So this is a complete distraction. Even further actual "incivility" would need to be wholly discounted from current deliberations? 31.52.180.236 (talk) 18:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

If you think the Arbs are blind to this page and those of others, you are somewhat niave. While the official evidence presentation phase is over, I have zero doubt that some are watching this page (and other involved editors). Not necessarily because they are collecting evidence, but because they might have various user pages watched. I also have zero doubt that some are reading the tea leafs to see which way the wind is blowing.---Balloonman 19:56, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I somewhat doubt that any alleged incivility from me will be ignored, but no doubt it will be from the saintly Kudpung. Malleus Fatuorum 18:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Saint Kud of Pung, as he is known, allegedly. 31.52.180.236 (talk) 19:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

What does that mean? "Pung" is Swedish for scrotum and purse. Is "Kud" supposed to be a homonym for "cud".  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

My comment led to a threat or contemplation of a block from Blade of the North. Medium drama, not even medium rare.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:12, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Just another example of the hypocrisy shown in this place, by rights the civility police should have swooped by now. But when it's one of their own.......J3Mrs (talk) 19:28, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Without any realistic evidence to suggest that you were heavily involved, I don't think the Arbs would bite on that one. Maybe there's something else going on with him that I'm not aware of. He may just have been doing far too much new-page-patroller monitoring, or something, and burned out a bit. Adding: sometimes, when we're just run down, the stupidest little thing is enough to dishearten us. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• Please, guys'n'gals, there are enough demons in this world without us creating fresh ones. There are so many explanations possible as to why Kudpung has decided to take a break; it's probably a combination of many factors, most of which we will be unaware of. It saddens me to see y'all talking like this; I've always got on well with Kudpung, and found him to be well-intentioned and with the best interests of t'Wiki at heart. I know other people have seen other sides to him – but humans are complex creatures, and we all have an awful lot of facets. It's wrong in so many ways only to focus on one facet of someone, and when we do that, it just makes us, ourselves, feel worse inside. This is something I've had to fight, within myself, about certain categories of real-life people, for well over ten years (due to real-life issues). I possibly have this worse than the average person, as I suffer from both C-PTSD and OCD, and when I let that dragon out of his cage, I get obsessive, murderous (literally) rage building up. In waking hours, I keep it suppressed, but it surfaces in nightmares and reconstructive flashbacks; ultimately the scariest thing in any of my nightmares is me. I know this territory, and though I've probably experienced it to extremes, its signposts are familiar. Take half an hour to think of a hundred other reasons or combinations of reasons why Kudpung might be needing to take a break. There's no way it's going to be solely-Malleus-induced, or solely-Malleus-oriented. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:16, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh for goodness sake Kudpung himself said on your page it was due to Malleus. You are directing this at the wrong people.J3Mrs (talk) 10:20, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi J3Mrs!

Kudpung wrote that Malleus had driven away another editor, not that Malleus had driven away Kudpung.

Kudpung has previously accused "incivlity at RfA" of depriving WP of worthy administrators, and claimed that privacy prevented him from divulging names of victims. I believe that Kudpung is just continuing "I have a list of names" attacks on Malleus. None of the administrators getting their jollies from doing opposition research against Malleus have ever chastized Kudpung for violating NPA as an administrator.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Please don't snarl at me; I mean well, really. I think Kudpung's action/reaction is because of a last-straw thing, really. And remember, when people are hurting or have just had enough of a complex situation, they say (and post) things in the heat of the moment which don't truly represent all their thought processes. I've done it myself; I think we all have. I don't know what brought this on, whether there was any interaction between Malleus and Kudpung immediately prior to this which triggered this, I haven't looked. We all do something stupid sometimes; there are many, many words I've said in the heat of the moment which I wish I could un-say. It's best just to let it go, and reduce the emotional damage by not re-hashing everything and focussing too strongly on it. We can't know everything that's going on in another human being's mind and emotions, and I believe it's vitally important not to pass judgment on anything like this without knowing every scrap of relevant data, and once we know that, still only pass judgment when something is wholly beyond reasonable doubt. If it's reasonable to have doubts, because we don;t know everything, then we shouldn't pass judgment. If we do, it's almost never truly just. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:33, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

If someone writes "I'm leaving because of ...." I AGF and believe them. That wasn't a snarl, it was disbelief.J3Mrs (talk) 10:41, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm being over-sensitive (again!) Blame the medical problems, and the meds. I'm sure what he posted was waaaay over-simplified; there's bound to be far more to it than that. Sometimes, we just snap. It's species-normal. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:00, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility enforcement/Proposed decision

I'm very worried; has one of the half-witted little admins protected this page by mistake? - so that Arbs can't edit it. I think it extraordinary that a group of people so keen to accept a case now seem unable to even post a thought on it. Perhaps it has all been too rushed and hurried. Alternatively, perhaps they have all been stricken with winter vomiting disease or just possibly they are as sick as parrots for being so short sighted and eager to accept the case. One lives here in a state of constant wonder. Giacomo Returned 19:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

It all adds to the suspense, and isn't that the point? Malleus Fatuorum 19:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Eh, I suspect that just like Sandy advised Malleus to write his defense offline and have it reviewed before posting it, lest it stir unnecessary drahma, that the Arbs in question are probably trying to finalize the wording before posting this case to the proposed decisions page. When we do see something, I pretty much expect it to be a fait accompli---because whatever they propose is going to be criticized by the supporters and detractors of Malleus/civility/etc. This is a high profile case which is going to generate a response. They want to get it right before making it public.---Balloonman 19:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I think they're between a rock and a hard place, but I'm not sympathetic to their plight; they opted against all common sense to accept the case. Malleus Fatuorum 19:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

They are definitely between a rock and a hard place... but they accepted that when they accepted the role of Arb.---Balloonman 19:57, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) On a point of order, they didn't accept the role, they sought the role, by putting themselves forwards as candidates. Malleus Fatuorum 20:11, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I do hope there are no casualties. (Personally, I voted for more "action adventure"!) Martinevans123 (talk) 20:04, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• Oh so do I, they have only been elected five minutes - too soon to fall on their swords. It's all very different from in my day. Then, they all used to discuss it on IRC En-Admins and then announce their deliberations. No, Balloonman, you are quite wrong - they are all as sick as green parrots and are squabbling on how to get themselves out of this hole without losing face. It's all very well wanting a sacrificial lamb, but one has to choose a meek littel lamb not a grumpy old bear, otherwise the whole thing all tend to go belly up. Giacomo Returned 20:12, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
• That's a great film, backwards. It's about a one-armed man who finds an arm in some rocks. Parrot of Doom 20:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Only have to speak of parrots for one to appear. 20:16, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• In the Monty Hall problem decision, ArbCom took their time formulating a decision, and did not let their egos get in the way of listening to the mathematical community. In my opinion, their good sense saved them and us from a terrible initial decision.

It would look unfair if ArbCom changed its procedures when dealing with high-profile WP-governance cases, instead of using a method that worked well when dealing with article-conflicts. Even if they do draft a decision behind closed doors, they should still give the community time to comment on a proposed decision. Listening to the community has worked for everybody before.

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:51, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I remember Monty Hall only too well. There were some seriously dubious proposals there. Thankfully most of them did not survive their first encounter with reason, but one or two did. Maybe WP:FIVE should appear as the editintro for every Proposed Decision page. Geometry guy 01:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Arbcom have specifically said that they're not going to post the proposed decision until 29 January. It seems a bit unfair on them to take them to task for keeping a promise. 209.137.146.50 (talk) 01:41, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Don't bother to wait for the decision - here it is.

• I expect that they are experiencing some form of problem reaching an agreement - the bossy one will be shouting about and the nervous ones having fits of the vapours and one or two droning on off subject and a one other droning on about a subject that no one is quite sure of. Then they will arrive at a face saving result that no one agrees with - I can tell you exactly what it will be - editors will be "reminded" and Malleus wll receive a warning, told he's been extremely naughty and then be topic banned for a year and told to be sweetness and light to all or he will be blocked. Then (need I continue?) Elonka and her mates will arrive en posse to the scene and keep blocking him, he will get cross, I will get cross, Scotty Mac will opine - then Malleus will be unblocked, ANI will be electrified with calls for de-sysopping and we will have a year of needles drama. And why is this? because a lot of silly new arbs don't study history and human behaviour and a lot of people are a little precious and over sensitive. One despairs one really does. Giacomo Returned 08:51, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

You are probably right. A year of "needles" drama sounds painful, but life is full of small pricks. Brianboulton (talk) 09:47, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

... but most men don't admit to it ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:01, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Goodness, Giano, you've outdone yourself (again). But I'm wondering if you'll get a talk page warning for evoking the name of she-who-will-not-be-named? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Who won't be named? Whose name can't I say? Giacomo Returned 17:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

If I told 'ya, I'd have to kill 'ya. (I see you don't read *my" talk page <harump>.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:01, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh her! Well we can't live in fear of treading on toes, no matter how beautifully pedicured they are. Giacomo Returned 18:30, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Think not? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:35, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh hell! I had no idea that Mrs G had found employment. Incidentally this thread reminds me. I met a man the other day whose ambition was to be an organ peddle under Diane Bish's foot. Don't you think that extraordinary? Giacomo Returned 18:45, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Nice video. Got any more like that? Malleus Fatuorum 19:19, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

A la orden: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7gMkiOPSeA SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that, but I'll have to have a cold shower and a lie down now. For me, this is simply the best. Malleus Fatuorum 22:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Ingrate. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

A year of "needles drama" sounds better than two years (but with one single term of 12 months) of "blunt pen-knife drama"? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

That is indeed pretty much what I expect the outcome to be Giano. Malleus Fatuorum 19:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Giano's prediction could be adapted into an excellent "How many Wikipedians does it take to change a light bulb?" joke. One to accuse the light bulb of incivility, another to block MF for it, 20 to agitate at ANI, 5 to start an arbcom case, and so the story unfolds... Geometry guy 11:39, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

You missed one to insist that there is a particular Wiki-way to change a light bulb and that all other methods are wrong (as the Wiki-standard must trump all other methods and conventions). This will generate a flurry of talk page charges and counter-charges (punctuated by breath-holding and fist pounding) before MF somehow gets involved and triggers the other series of events. Note that the "Wiki-standard" light bulb changing debate will continue at the same time.Intothatdarkness (talk) 14:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I only just began: see the Star Trek version below! Geometry guy 22:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, on that note ... How many Star Trek fans does it take to change a light bulb? (Cookies for the first to answer correctly! And by "correctly", I mean the answer which I have ...) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, but I assume at some point in the process at least one of them dresses up in a lightbulb costume... --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:50, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Coincidentally, I actually was thinking of a Star Trek light bulb joke when I made my comment above, because Giano's witty post reminded me of the following answer to the question "How many crew members of the Starship Enterprise does it take to change a light bulb?"...

Scotty reports to Captain Kirk that one of the dilithium light bulbs in the engine room is dead. Kirk sends Bones McCoy to mend it, but Bones finds there are no spare light bulbs, adding "Dammit, Jim - I'm a doctor not an electrician!". Scotty says he can keep the engines running for three days at most without light bulbs, because he "cannae change the laws of physics".

Spock scans the sector and notes that the nearest planetary system with light bulb capability is the previously unknown world of Alpha Regula IV, so Kirk orders Sulu to proceed there at maximum warp. On arrival, Kirk beams down with a landing party of Spock, Bones, Sulu and a red-shirt security officer. They are promptly attacked and captured by the primitive inhabitants; the red-shirt is killed in the fight. Meanwhile, in orbit, Chekov must take evasive action to avoid an approaching Klingon warship, which he cannot challenge without new light bulbs.

The native King orders Kirk to fight his best warrior in hand-to-hand combat, whom Kirk defeats by throwing him over his shoulder. The King invites them to negotiate and Bones notices that the King is suffering from chronic indigestion and cures him. The grateful King releases the landing party and offers them all the light bulbs they can carry. Chekov returns to orbit and beams up the landing party. They install the light bulb just in time to save the engines and destroy the Klingon warship.

Kirk records another successful mission in his log, and Spock raises one eyebrow.

We need a version of this for Misplaced Pages! Geometry guy 22:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

FYI, the question "How many Wikipedians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" was answered back in October. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:45, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

That's hilarious. Well done.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Brilliant! Made my day :o) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:21, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the total count is off... shouldn't it be 42? That way we we might finally know the question?---Balloonman 16:32, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe 42 is the count over at Citizendium; they're slightly less dysfunctional than we are. However, it takes them 3.5 years to make the change. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:50, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

fan-freakin-tastic. Laughed my butt off. — Ched :  ?  17:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Me too! That was hilarious. --John (talk) 19:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Well done!

How many psychologists/therapists/social-workers/WP-Mediation_Committee members does it take to change a lightbulb?

Just one. But first, the lightbulb must want to change ....  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:38, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

... and how many Zen masters does it take? (Nope, they won't do it, because change must come from within ;P) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 14:47, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

How many Star Trek fans does it take to change a light bulb? Only a few – and then thousands will write in to complain that it's nothing like as good as the original ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 15:47, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Catholic church

hello,

in case you are interested in Catholic churches, ping me on my talk page. Regards.--♫GoP♫_{TN 17:09, 24 January 2012 (UTC)}

What makes you think I might be interested in Catholic churches? I haven't set foot inside one for more than 35 years, except I think for a drunken Midnight Mass one Christmas ages ago ... can't really remember too much about that ... Malleus Fatuorum 20:50, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

You should try going, some time, into a proper monastery-attached church for something like Matins and Lauds sung in Latin. Incredible; no other church experience quite has it. I'm not a great church-goer by any means, but there's something really hauntingly timeless about that. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 21:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I have, many times. As an adolescent in Scotland there were two monasteries close to the village where I lived, and I was even an altar boy for one of them. They're actually among my best memories of living in that country; my worst is that we were one of only two Catholic families in the village, and the religious abuse had to be seen to be believed. It got to the point that my sister and I had to leave the village school. A few years later my family moved to England, and the change was just incredible. Nobody seemed to care whether we were Catholic or Protestant, they just took the piss out of our Scottish accents, which I haven't quite managed to lose even to this day. Malleus Fatuorum 21:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Magical, isn't it? And don't you dare lost that last bit of Scottish accent! Scottish accents are some of the sexiest around ;P I've gathered from others that religious intolerance in Scotland is pretty fierce stuff, but you're right, here in England we're pretty laid-back about it for the most part. When I was a kid, we used to have some very interesting family dinners over at my Grandmother's house, with some very strange assortments of people (my eccentric high-IQ aunt who worked in MI5 had a number of Cardinals on her friends list, and other family friends included various Anglican high-ups, and one rather fierce atheist ... and there was the SOE chappie ... ). They kept coming back, because the dinners were excellent, but it did mean that I and my siblings had a rather off-beat upbringing! But to get back to churches, I miss the Latin. And the music. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 21:40, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I was only a kid when the Church moved from Latin to English, but it was never the same again for me. I thought I'd developed an entirely neutral English accent until one day someone in a class I was teaching asked me where I was from, as they couldn't quite place my accent. I said "guess", and straight away they said "Scotland". I think my tendency to use the word "wee" might have been a clue, and of course there's the ever-present problem of open vs. flat vowels. Is it "grass" as in "ass", or is it "grass" as in ... well you know, how the effete Southerners pronounce it. I tend to flip between the two with uncompromising irregularity. Malleus Fatuorum 21:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Scottish accents are some of the sexiest around, are they? Well thanks, I'll bear that in mind, although I prefer English ones. Some, anyway. I gather religious intolerance in Scotland did used to be pretty bad, moreso in the west I think. I'm sorry you have bad memories of living in Scotland, Malleus! We've mellowed out a bit now, I swear. Bunnies! Leave a message :) 21:47, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Arch, the noo, an' it al' fits into place, MF, the noo. If only we had known from the start that what the c-word really meant, all this silly ArbComCiviltyNonsense could have been so easily avoided. In fact, in a Scottish accent, the c-word is almost a compliment, d'y ken tbe noo? Sigmund would have been so proud. Just lie back on that fu**ing couch. ya nippet bampot!! 109.153.195.157 (talk) 22:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Ooh, Bunnies! (>**)> Hugzies :o) I just got inspired to add a few bits to an article - wow! I can expand that article, if I'm allowed to use primary sources .... heh! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 21:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The grass thing - if you go halfway house between ass and arse you end up with a kinda New Foresty accent. Like saying "'aystaaack" for "haystack", etc. The West Country has it, more so. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 22:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I was living in the west of Scotland, in Ayrshire, and it was pretty unbelievable by today's standards. Malleus Fatuorum 22:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Ooh, Ayrshire! At least the countryside there isn't too bad. :) But the whole Protestant/Catholic malarkey used to be pretty horrendous. To compare it to how it is more recently, I went to a Catholic school (although I'm not religious) and, well, no one seemed to give a damn. A better attitude, I think. These days, people don't even bat an eye when the Orange Walk comes to town, except to complain about traffic being held up, naturally. Bunnies! Leave a message :) 22:10, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Ayrshire's pretty. Not as fantabulous as the bits around Crieff, but pretty. Proper church music, the old stuff, in the Latin, is gorgeous. From the Mozart Missa Brevis to the Fauré Requiem; all emotion-inducing stuff. But the bestest, bestest bit of Scotland has to be on Islay where Laphroaig is made ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 22:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Ayrshire has something far beyond the reach of church music, the Electric Brae. I was fascinated by that as a kid, and still am. Malleus Fatuorum 22:39, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Fascinating! And that article could really make good use of a video. Maybe you should go back there some time and produce one? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 22:48, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

This one might work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-L3JMk7C1A SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:52, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I love that film! And the production on that number, apparently (or so I'm told) cost more than the rest of the film put together. Best line of the film: "Pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, coz there's bugger-all down here on Earth". Pesky (talk …stalk!) 22:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm a great Monty Python fan, but here's a video of the Electric Brae. Malleus Fatuorum 23:02, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Weird-looking place! Bet it's even more weird on a bike. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 23:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

It is, it's a really weird feeling having to pedal hard to go downhill. And the best part of it was that it's on the road to Girvan, where even we kids were allowed to drive motor boats around the lake. A day out at Dunure, the Electric Brae and Girvan, followed by a service at Dankeith or Coodham is just about as close to Heaven as anyone has a right to expect ... dang, they both seem to be red links. Malleus Fatuorum 23:42, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Nice little project for someone there ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

• I wonder if you would help improving the prose quality of Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Virgin Mary, as it failed the GAN due to such reasons. If I am not mistaken, you review articles at GAN pretty often, or maybe I am confusing you with someone :P. Regards.♫GoP♫_{TN 16:41, 25 January 2012 (UTC)}

• I used to, but haven't done for a while now. Malleus Fatuorum 16:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Try GiacomoReturned - that looks like one he might like. 209.137.146.50 (talk) 17:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks! :) --♫GoP♫_{TN 13:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)}

A barnstar for you!

	The Minor barnstar
	Thanks for your help on Poppy Meadow! MayhemMario 20:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I've done nothing really. I think that if you put your shoulder to it and succeed in enlisting the right kind of collaborator(s) you stand a very good chance of success at the next FA nomination, but PR is a very sensible first move. Malleus Fatuorum 20:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

If you do send it to PR, please do drop me a line and I'll do my best to offer a review. J Milburn (talk) 23:45, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Waitrose

I'll just leave this here: http://twitpic.com/8bvfl9 Andy Dingley (talk) 18:21, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

To whom it may concern

I've had to temporarily disable my email as I'm switching telephone, broadband provider, and ISP, and until that's sorted in the next week or so (hopefully) I'm reduced to piggy-backing on a friendly neighbour's WiFi connection. So I'm not ignoring anyone. Promise. Malleus Fatuorum 00:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

First it's your plumbing now your internet....---Balloonman 02:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

All problems with pipes of one kind or another. 209.137.146.50 (talk) 02:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)note for anyone under 40, in Ye Olden Tymes an internet connection was called a "pipe".

Well I promised you pictures of my new kitchen days ago-- did you get my e-mail recently? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

No, I didn't. BT have promised that everything should be sorted out by Monday, but we'll see. I look forward to seeing your pictures, might give me some ideas for our own horror. Malleus Fatuorum 02:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

You didn't get an email from me that included an inquiry from me about how to open a file? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Nope. I've had no emails for a week or so now. Malleus Fatuorum 18:08, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

PS to Balloonman: the plumbing still isn't fixed, just had to paddle through yet another mini-flood in the basement. :-( Malleus Fatuorum 03:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Re kitchens, I personally recommend a stroll through Ikea. When I moved my parents from London down to here, we had the deep joy of spending someone else's money to rig up the whole house here to store 50 years' worth of accumulated hoarding, and with Ikea handy, it took us about ten days to do the lot, including redecorating throughout and re-carpeting downstairs. Unbelievably easy to assemble and install; styles to suit every taste; bloody excellent value for money. And I'm happy to provide tips on interior design for you – it's something I love doing. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:58, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm a big fan of Ikea as well, and in fact I've got a range of their free-standing kitchen units waiting patiently to be installed in our basement. I'm also a big fan of Wickes. We have a flat that we rent out, and inevitably it sometimes gets a little trashed. A couple of years ago we had to refit the entire kitchen, including plumbing and electrics, and we managed to do the lot, including beautiful beech worktops, for just a few hundred pounds. It was hard work though, and I even had to custom-build one of the cabinets myself. I always knew those woodwork lessons at school would come in handy one day. Malleus Fatuorum 14:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, I doubt there will ever be a "right" place to put this comment, I doubt I'm particularly qualified to comment on your talk page, and I seriously doubt that you give two shits about what I have to say - but whatever. I'm very impressed at the way you have handled yourself in the arbitration case, in the way you've tried to keep the focus on what the heck "civility" actually means, and by-and-large not sharpened up any particular axe with another editor's name on it. Is that apostrophe right for the possessive? I honestly have no idea! Five minutes before the blackout, I loaded up the evidence and workshop pages and I must say, you are the calmest and clearest one of the lot, the Malleus whose comments I always do look at on the first go-round. Well done, and I hope the case results in something actually workable for the community, rather than simple findings that such-and-such did this-and-that wrong on then-and-whenever date. In case you see that as a compliment, it wouldn't bother me too much if you get topic-banned from WT:RFA, or maybe topic-banned from making a second comment, I dunno. Have fun with the technology, and the telecom employees who stab away at their consoles trying to get everything set up, and occasionally send a technician out to be sure the actual wires got plugged into the mysterious green box out on the street. :) Franamax (talk) 04:44, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that Franamax. But believe me, I have lots of sharpened axes just waiting to be deployed appropriately. ;-) Malleus Fatuorum 05:34, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I can see it now: "Malleus just walked around the corner, saw you, threw a little axe at you (which missed), cursed, and ran away." :) Geometry guy 21:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

And just for the sake of completeness, a topic ban from WT:RFA wouldn't bother me either; in fact I think everyone ought to be topic banned from that place. Malleus Fatuorum 05:41, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Any community which seeks to silence its critics is following one of history's worst examples, and deserves to be obliterated. Though if we can, as a community, fix it without WikiTimişoara it would be better. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:40, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

True, but WT:RFA has got to be just about one of the most useless and impotent pages in the whole of Misplaced Pages, which is saying something. Malleus Fatuorum 14:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I endorse the product and/or service which that comment provides. I try to avoid the place myself, or make as few comments as possible if I feel drawn in. It's interesting reading I grant you, but any attempt at substantive discussion soon enough gets sidetracked by various, ahem, and a multitude of others trying to push their view, rather than trying to pick up any common theme. Hey, if I name myself as a party, do you think I could get topic-banned there too? ;) Franamax (talk) 08:38, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

My new broadband connection won't be installed until next Wednesday, but (no doubt) much to my neighbour's relief I can now use BT's public Wi-Fi service in the interim as there's a local hotspot within range. The good news though is that my new connection will be about half as fast again as my old one at about half the price, taking into account BT's unlimited call deal. Hopefully all of the hassle will be worth it. Malleus Fatuorum 14:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Your old connection must have been abysmally slow and expensive… BT had an offer whereby the subscriber pays £150 upfront and gets a £50 discount on their direct debit over the year (or something like that)- domn't know if that's still active. The BT account also includes a "professional" Flickr account (unlimited uploads). Ning-ning (talk) 17:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, there is still some kind of discount deal. I forget the details, but it's something like you get one month free line rental every year plus some money back IIRC. Malleus Fatuorum 18:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

God help you if you're getting BT broadband, I have it and it usually takes me about 2-3 minutes to open a page. BigDom 17:43, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

My wife has had a BT business broadband connection provided by her employer for a couple of years now, and it's always been very quick and reliable. And I've always had a BT broadband connection, just provided via a third-party ISP. The problem then is that if something goes wrong BT and the ISP tend to blame each other before sorting out the problem. Plus I get separate bills for calls and broadband usage, and no deal on calls. Given the distance to my local exchange and the line quality the maximum speed I can get is 8Mbs, but I was only getting 6Mbs with the wind behind me on a good day. Malleus Fatuorum 18:02, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

2MB/s downloads here on Virgin. It gets doubled later this year too, for free. As for email, just get a Gmail account. Parrot of Doom 23:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

We'll see if I really get 8Mbps or not, but having free access to BT's Openzone WiFi network is handy, and in fact that's what I'm using now. As for email, I think I'll do as you suggest and set up a new gmail account, and maybe forward on to it anything sent to my old account. But on the other hand I may just abandon it, as it's really just become a spam magnet. Malleus Fatuorum 01:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I use BT infinity, and get about 4-5MB/s where the server can deliver that, which is not particularly common in my experience. Long Misplaced Pages pages still can take ages to load (half a minute perhaps): the delay is a server-side issue. Geometry guy 01:54, 28 January 2012 (UTC) PS. Hope you didn't miss the colossal ref above.

Can't get BT infinity here, even though we're only about two miles from the city centre. What colossal ref? Malleus Fatuorum 02:00, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

You will get it eventually (both the optic cable, and the reference to the famous threatening little dwarf above). Geometry guy 02:18, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

And remember you can drop the bird and the birdcage in 2 different places to help you map out the first maze, and you might have to put down the golden eggs to get through the second one. :) If I'm remembering right :)Franamax (talk) 03:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Free bird. Alarbus (talk) 06:42, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I think I tried stomp bird once and got "You are in the low chamber. There is a dead bird here." :) (Malleus, this is just hopelessly geeky kibitzing, sorry) Franamax (talk) 08:17, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Free bird → bird drives away snake. Alarbus (talk) 08:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

We use Tiscali/TalkTalk; on the whole it's really good, generally fast (though our router is crap and keeps disconnecting - router's fault, not Tisc/TT). It seemed to be the cheapest over-all, includes line rental and all calls free. Speed usually in the 6-7 mbps range in this area (a bit behind the times, down here!) Off the top of my head, it's £21.50 a month or thereabouts. Been with them for several years. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Hm. I am currently acting as an expert witness in four legal battles vs TT due to connectivity issues. A bargepole is not long enough, at least if you are using them around my bit of the world. - Sitush (talk) 09:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Sounds though either I and my family have been very lucky, or your people must have been unlucky! We've had up to five different households with them at any one time, and not had any major problems. Mind you, I still remember 26K dial-up ... compared to that, everything's good! And dialling in, getting engaged signals all the time, then listening to all that manic-rat-nest sounds, and taking an hour to download a new programme, and having to go to the library for the big ones, because the connection dropped before the download was completed ... aahhhh, those were the days! Not. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:50, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

You are too young! 300 bps acoustic couplers were the first of my domestic modems. Only marginally better than two tins & a length of string. - Sitush (talk) 10:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I remember those, too! But that was before the Interwebz thing really got going ... Have you watched War Games recently? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:37, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Recently? Never would be nearer to the mark. IIRC, it was not subtitled the last time I tried to watch it. FWIW, my coupler was back in the days of FIDO messageboards etc. - Sitush (talk) 12:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

There's a scene where the young hacker dials in (on an ordinary phone, with an actual dial, IIRC), settles the handset into its nest, loads up his little programmes from his little cassette player ... bless! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 12:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Woah. I didn't realise that they were filming me. - Sitush (talk) 13:43, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi mate

Greetings Malleus. I am very happy to see you here more often now. :D I hope staying way from here for a few days did you good. This place (or should I say some people are) is really unfair to you. Malleus, please take a look at this article's lead when you have time. I hope we can have a nice chat very soon. Take care. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 13:02, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I hope Beyoncé is paying you well for all your hard work Jivesh. ;-) Malleus Fatuorum 14:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Lol, I don't get paid but I am happy her label notice and mention my work. See this (practically a copy-paste of End of Time (song) - second paragraph of lead]) and read this one. Malleus, I really love this woman... when I write for her, I do it with immense love and dedication. I feel like I am doing what I want, something I will never regret. Lol. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I feel a bit like that about this woman, although perhaps for different reasons. Malleus Fatuorum 15:19, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

She is pretty. May I know your reasons? ;) Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Not to put too fine a point on it, basically she's sex on a stick. And she's built on rather an ambitious scale. Here's a taster for you. Malleus Fatuorum 15:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I can't believe is is above 50. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Ageist !! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:49, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Is it sexist to say that she's sex on a stick, even if she is? I'm sure she'd take it as a compliment anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 15:54, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Since that's what she's selling, I don't think so. But if I ate like that, I'd be big as a house. Doesn't work-- kinda like when HGTV filmed my house and claimed "anyone can do this in a day", although they were in there for two weeks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Malleus has great taste..♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

He really does. But I still prefer my woman. :)) Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:52, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I know, and she wants it luscious and smooth....and can still feel the butter on her fingers - it's too much to bear I need a shower. Giacomo Returned 15:50, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The most desirable woman in Sweden (according to recent votes) was this Swedish chef—not to be confused with The Swedish Chef.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:13, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The weird thing about that video clip is that despite knowing no Swedish at all I felt like I understood what she was saying. Malleus Fatuorum 01:38, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Vivacious Swedish chef Tina Nordström promoted her show by bantering with Gordon Ramsey, with (dull) dick jokes to get tabloid headlines.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:58, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

False advertising, she did NOT teach me how to prepare a three-course meal in under half an hour. I got the "how to look like that before my guest arrive" part down already. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Does the phrase "posh totty" mean anything to you Sandy? Malleus Fatuorum 16:11, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

What's a willie? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:17, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

It's an ... err ... um ... thingie that ... well, you know. Next question. Malleus Fatuorum 16:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, got it. I live in a place now where carrying a Prada bag makes one the devil, so ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I guess you might have to make do with just being "totty" in public then, and keep the "posh" bit for your other half. Malleus Fatuorum 16:32, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Why he's a right bit of a totty, mate! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:43, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

See, you're getting the hang of it now. Only problem is, I imagine you saying it in Dick Van Dyke's excruciatingly bad attempt at an English accent in Mary Poppins. Promise me you'll never say anything like that out loud. Malleus Fatuorum 16:53, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Not to worry, my dear; I have much better phrases for those purposes! Totty indeed ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:26, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh Mr Fatuorum, if it's "posh totty" that you want, put down that frightful Ms Georgia, and look no further. I am here and all yours. Catherine Rollbacker de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 17:17, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

That frightful Ms Georgia has been asking you to stop damaging her reputation with non-posh images of unwaxed eyebrows for several years. Perhaps our Lady is trying to create an unfair and decidedly un-British competition, because she knows the southern belle will prevail in a fair competition. If you keep this up, I'll be requesting a site-wide banner. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:31, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I have it on reliable authority that Ms Georgia's arse is one of the wonders of the modern world, a World Heritage site no less. Not sure about that waxed eyebrow thing though ... seems a bit unnatural. Malleus Fatuorum 17:50, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I can well beleive that of Mr Georgia; there are carthorses and racehorses and who is to say which is the most useful, but I give you two images (I am completelt unbiased) over wich is the most desirable. Catherine Rollbacker de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 18:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Relying now on our granddaughter, are we? Perhaps I won't need the site-wide banner. Malleus, my arse may be a wonder, but you make it sound positively ancient.

And speaking of wonders, could this be the fundament of her ladyship? (I hasten to add that I use the term lady loosely, considering your disreputable heritage.) At least it may be an explanation for not one, but two WMF employees planning a junket to Brasil. How nice! Warning: a reserved posh tottie like Malleus himself may get the vapors if he watches this video. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:55, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Your ladyship, before your RFA is launched, I want to ask that you state your age for the record. I'm sure you are entirely too old for adminship 'round these parts. We like 'em young. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I think her ladyship's sensitivity to sunlight might be a clue, but there's no policy that says the nosferatu can't be administrators. Malleus Fatuorum 01:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I think you are all missing the point in idly speculating on my age. Tomorrow, in case you have all forgotten is Black Sunday! The day when sentence is passed upon poor dear Malleus; so it would be a good idea if I am an Administrateur by then so that I can unblock him. I think I would be very good at it; I have a very perceptive mind. I should have accepted Mrs Bishonen's tools when she was begging me to take them. However, my great perception also leads me to beleive that those nincompoop arbs have still not made their silly minds up - I would not be surprised if they are not all Liberal Democrats - and we all know where that leads one. Catherine Rollbacker de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 10:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• Milady, now you're speaking my languge; I may have picked the wrong posh totty. Is your nephew about? The last time we had a soiree on the slopes, I fear I didn't quite pay him enough mind. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:12, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Eh, when I were a lass, and flint-knapping were t'trade to be in ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 12:34, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• Oh I do so admire a remarkable memory, you must be very proud it Mrs Pesky. Funnily enough my nephew is about and working on this case as we speak. I think you will find that once we all know exactly where we are, he will have quite a lot to say and "post." in the meantime, has anyone offered the condemned man a last supper; I would do myself, but naturally those in my station have never learnt to cook, but I'm sure Ms Georgia and Mrs Pesky are more than acomplished downstairs. Catherine Rollbacker de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 19:34, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• I've no time for cooking, Milady; it's hard to get good help above the equator, I left my cook behind with the last lesser half, and the new posh totty has a decidedly NorthAmerican taste in food. Last suppers are apparently being cooked elswhere. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:39, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• I may be only a Pesky Commoner, but even aristocrats can be Commoners around here! I'm afraid to say I can (through the distaff line) trace my ancestry back to at least one unpleasant turncoat. Oops. And I'm probably more accomplished upstairs than down, despite being quite good in the kitchen. Or the snooker room. Or – no, that's right, the chandelier broke ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 20:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• I thought sentencing was scheduled for today ... have I been awakened too soon? Malleus Fatuorum 21:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

My money's on the "bitten off more than they can chew" version. Nortonius (talk) 22:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

My money is on that it's only 12.05am this morning in La-la land. Giacomo Returned 22:35, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

It's time they woke up then! Sorry, was that unicivil? Nortonius (talk) 22:49, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Depends on whether one of the block-happy admins reads it before one of the sane ones does. Malleus Fatuorum 22:51, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Battle lines seem to be being drawn all over Misplaced Pages recently, so I think the best that ArbCom can hope for is that they don't create one more. Malleus Fatuorum 22:49, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

• What's the time in La-la Land now? Malleus Fatuorum 01:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank You...

		*****************The Beyoncé Knowles WikiProject Thanks You*****************
		I, Jivesh, thank you wholeheartedly for your much appreciated help and copy-edits on "Halo", which is now an FA. Your kind and encouraging words helped me even more (morally). May God bless both you and the day I came across a kind and helpful person like you on Misplaced Pages. -> Jivesh1205 (Talk) 04:40, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Well done. You're obviously getting the hang of this FAC lark now. Malleus Fatuorum 17:48, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

And it's all thanks to you. For this, I will always be grateful to you. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 17:52, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

You give me too much credit Jivesh, but you're a testament that the lie about me chasing off other editors is simply that, a lie. And I find it deeply shocking that a WMF employee such as Kaldari would be party to such a lie. Malleus Fatuorum 22:58, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, you are too bootylicious for Misplaced Pages. ;)  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

True, Misplaced Pages doesn't deserve me and obviously can't deal with me. I have a couple of my own writing projects on the go this year, so if I'm banned I'll get them to market sooner without the distractions of this place. So not really any kind of a punishment. Malleus Fatuorum 23:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

And you know Malleus, I do it with my heart because you truly deserve it. And frankly, feel i don't do enough. You deserve much more. You opened so many doors for me. And why worry about them? They are always pressed. (I don't know what this word means but I saw it being used on a forum). Those editors cannot handle your honesty and hard work. Lol. Malleus, whenever possible please don't forget to take a look at "Broken-Hearted Girl". Remember I asked you about its lead? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 04:34, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I see someone else is having a go at you? Shouldn't he/she be blocked for using those words? I mean he was practically attacking you. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 15:31, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

You're a silver-tongued charmer Jivesh. But my position on blocks may surprise you; I think that blocks should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances such as persistent racial or sexual abuse, not for a straightforward "fuck you", which no sane person ought to give a damn about. As I say further down this page, treating editors like naughty children infantilises us all. Malleus Fatuorum 15:53, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Silver-tongued? Lol. what is that? Malleus, did you know I was blocked three times when I was new here? Once I was blocked for six months. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I can't see a six-month block, was that under a different username? What were you vandalising that resulted in your last two blocks? Malleus Fatuorum 16:11, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Oops. It was three months. Lol. Hmm, ... I was not vandalizing. I did not understand that I had to source my contributions to Misplaced Pages. :D Jivesh1205 (Talk) 16:17, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

So you were blocked twice for a week for not providing citations? Malleus Fatuorum 16:24, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Twice for a week and once for 3 months. Lol. This is not a joke. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 17:17, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I wrote this. :P Jivesh1205 (Talk) 17:33, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

He's just a poor boy from a poor family. Spare him his life from this monstrosity!

Even Southern Governors are granting reprieves. Let us hope that ArbCom is merciful.

Otherwise, Don't give up hope: We can ask for DNA tests, for a mistrial, for an appeal, ....  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not looking for a reprieve, only equal treatment for all, admin or non-admin. Any pronouncement that fails to recognise that will be completely unacceptable. Malleus Fatuorum 23:15, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. "Reprieve" was suggested by the change that Southern governors no longer barbecue prisoners to avoid being "out Willie-Hortoned", a nasty phrase well glossed by Christopher Hitchens. A recognition of your contributions and role would be just, and equal treatment is a minimal expectation.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:24, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

personal life etc.

• I know this is a waste of time, but I'll go ahead: I was talking to everyone. This spat is bullshit.
• As for you personally, then, here goes: You seem to think that fighting back is... what? somehow the correct thing to do. But it is not, for several reasons. First, you seem to have made "I don't tolerate fools" some sort of personal motto. That motto is purely based on pride, not on cool reason, or cold calculation, or on a long-sighted view toward victory. The fact is this: there are two types of enemies: empty-headed fools and wise snakes. . The way to deal with empty-headed fools has three steps: ignore them, ignore them, and ignore them. If they push themselves to the fore where they can't be ignored, then deal with them as firmly but calmly as you would a child who is throwing a harmless tantrum.... others will rally around you when you do so, and you score fucking huge style points by remaining calm... ... The second reason is this: Every time you engage your enemies, they always win in the long run (whether or not you prevail in the short run), simply because you have engaged. It is a war of attrition. Each spat inevitably brings you closer and closer to burnout.... another possibility is that that each spat in which you let them prod you into saying "fuck you" or "cunt" or whatever brings you closer to actually being site banned, some day in the far-flung future. Either way, they win, you lose, because you have let them employ your pride as a tool against you. Can't you see that winning in the short run by engaging in and trying to prevail in some tactical engagement (spat) is inevitably driving you to lose in the long run? There is only one path to victory for you, and it is paved with reason and calm demeanor, and the signposts say never, never, never engage your enemy. Take the long-run view.
• That's all. Go ahead and be angry. Good luck in all you do. –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 02:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

  You're quite right, you just wasted your time. Malleus Fatuorum 02:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

  OK, last post and unwatching: I sincerely wish you good luck in the civility case. You won't be banned, but they have to do something or other, or the opposing side will howl too much. I won't post on your talk again. –OneLeafKnowsAutumn (talk) 02:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

  Obviously you're right; the lynch mob has demanded some kind of punishment and I doubt that ArbCom has the strength or integrity to stand to up to them. But please don't stop posting to my talk page even though we may sometimes disagree. I'd guess I've disagreed with pretty much everyone who's posted here at one time or another. Disagreement is healthy. Malleus Fatuorum 02:29, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Okays; I just read that; Malleus, dear, darling, gorgeous Malleus, Leaf's comment there is actually pretty insightful. If you re-read it as if it were something you'd written to someone else, you might see more in it. I try not to disagree with people more than I can help, it's too stressful in an already over-stress-filled Real Life, so I have no intentions of getting into a spat with either of you (or anyone else here). Maybe if we can get that mandate for a dream team to re-word the civility policy, maybe if we can have an amnesty for all involved in the ArbCom case on the basis that the damned rule is too nebulous ... maybe then we can get some real justice in the whole thing. I know of at least one Arb who I personally consider to ooze integrity; maybe that will make a difference. If we get a realisation, Wiki-wide, that we need equality under the law, that will be something. It will solve 85% of the problem. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:21, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

It would certainly go some way towards sorting out Misplaced Pages's many problems, but the idea of not confronting one's enemies is, to me, simply cowardice. Malleus Fatuorum 15:46, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

It might also create a more toxic environment as the inmates run amok while others sit back and twiddle their thumbs waiting for the noise to die down.Intothatdarkness (talk) 16:13, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Quite. The Christian idea of turning the other cheek is just twaddle, pure and simple. Malleus Fatuorum 16:21, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

It may be useful in some situations, but in any sort of group dynamic like this place it's often (I suspect) viewed as a sign of weakness by those who wish to press on with their own agendas. What's really needed, but may never come to pass, is an evenly-applied set of standards. Pesky's super-committee is certainly one step, but unless those rules/principles/guidelines/whatever are applied evenly and fairly they won't work any better than what now exists. It's the "evenly" and "fairly" parts of that (especially, I think, the "evenly" part) that will sink any effort. IMO, of course.Intothatdarkness (talk) 17:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I think that's about right; I have in my mind the idea of the chivalrous medieval knight. Malleus Fatuorum 18:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I confront my enemies in my bad dreams (not Wiki-enemies, Real-Life bar stewards). The scariest thing in my dreams is me ... which goes some way to explaining why I try very hard not to get riled. Once you've fuelled the dragon and let him off the lead, his recall is lousy! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Here's something a little strange; I have never, ever, had a scary dream. "The coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave man dies but one." Malleus Fatuorum 19:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

That's weird; maybe you just have them but don't remember them? I'm told one only remembers the dreams which one wakes in, and not those where one stays asleep. The weirdest dream I ever had just suddenly blanked out in the middle, to be replaced by a dream-error-message which said "Application Unknown has unexpectedly quit." Pesky (talk …stalk!) 19:40, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Now that's weird. I occasionally wake up and for a few minutes believe that my dream was reality, so I'm a bit confused when I find that I can't fly or whatever. Sometimes I even try and go back to sleep to get back into that time and place in which I could fly. :-) Malleus Fatuorum 19:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I find flying takes an enormous amount of concentration, and trying to hover near the top of the room to eavesdrop on the conversations, and maintaining invisibility so they can't see you hovering up there, is almost too much to do, both at the same time. I've always found staircases easy to take off from, once you've got both hands propped up, then you can get both feet off the ground, and kinda-float off ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 20:12, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

@Pesky: Scary! --Senra (talk) 21:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

@Senra- not as scary as knowing Choker's still out there- I'm impressed that you found that! Ning-ning (talk) 23:38, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I can be the scariest badass witch granny. Trust me on this. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 15:22, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding AN/I

Go fuck yourself. --Elkman 02:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

If you are not already indefinitely blocked then you have demonstrated with some aplomb what the real problem is here. Malleus Fatuorum 03:26, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

And I don't see any warning on your talk page for the use of profane language. How do you explain that? Malleus Fatuorum 03:29, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

For the record I was in the middle of posting a note on his talk page asking if his comment was really necessary when I noticed he'd already removed it. We all have bad days. 28bytes (talk) 03:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I saw this and thought it pretty much underscores everything wrong here. Post ec - we all have bad days??? Yet some people get blocked for a week for a bad days and others get an arb case - whoever this guy is gets a "we all have bad days". Pah! Truthkeeper (talk) 03:33, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely agree TK; that was hypocrisy taken to a level that I couldn't even begin to imagine. Malleus Fatuorum 03:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Not on my part I hope. I distribute the "we all have bad days" business fairly equitably, I think. 28bytes (talk) 03:39, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, but you're missing the important difference here. 78.149.240.164 (talk) 03:40, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

So let's see if I've got this right 28bytes. I can call anyone anything I like so long as I revert it before an admin comes along? Malleus Fatuorum 03:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Depends on the admin, of course. A sensible one wouldn't cause a stink over something that someone had already withdrawn. 28bytes (talk) 03:44, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

In your opinion perhaps, not in mine. Malleus Fatuorum 03:46, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

What else do you expect Elkman to say after you make him look like a fool, with help from Volunteer Marek? He obviously has been hanging out with grown ups, and can swear like the big boys.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 03:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't expect him to do or or say anything at all, just to be put over the knee of the nearest admin and be spanked and blocked. Malleus Fatuorum 04:04, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, so how long do you want me to be blocked? A day? A week? Six months? You know the usual places to ask for a punitive block. Or, better yet, call these guys and ask for some real enforcement action. --Elkman 06:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't want you to be blocked at all dear boy, as I think that blocking infantilises us all. Malleus Fatuorum 14:47, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The point, Elkman, is that if Mal had told you to fuck off, he'd be blocked right now. Lara 20:33, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Not if he would have removed the edit himself a short while later (before anyone even noticed the edit was made in the first place). --Conti|✉ 21:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Correct. And regarding your response on your talk page, Elkman: I have no desire to block anyone (and you will notice that I haven't blocked you), and I am not familiar with either your past or your contributions. But I don't want you to go around cussing people out on their talk pages. Disclaimer: I am involved with MF, since I've never blocked them. Drmies (talk) 21:03, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Conti, I disagree: I think there's a couple of us with their fingers on the "block MF" trigger. Drmies (talk) 21:04, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

At the very least, one of the admins with their fingers on the "unblock MF after he's been blocked" trigger would have unblocked him soon after. :) --Conti|✉ 21:13, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Two more problems

When editors describe the latest injustice as yet another example of "what is wrong here", I find myself asking, what is really wrong here? There are two issues that are at least as responsible for problems on Misplaced Pages as the whole hypocritical admins meme.

1. Editors posting in haste, often ill-informed, misunderstanding facts, jumping to conclusions, basing their view on preconceptions. Elkman's post is an example of that, but so is much of the criticism of 28bytes.
2. Editors believing that they are right. There is nothing wrong with that per se, but when it is used to imply that all who disagree are idiots, it becomes a serious problem. Perhaps worthy of an essay, even a semi-humorous one.

Geometry guy 00:41, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

There are many problems here, but if I were to pick only two they wouldn't be the ones that you've chosen. My perception is that:

1. The blocking policy, or more precisely what has become the practice for blocking, treats non-admin editors like naughty children. Which is quite simply insulting, and in itself a violation of the civility policy.
2. There is absolutely no way to resolve the interminable nonsense that surrounds so many categories of article; the ongoing 9/11 nonsense springs to mind, anything to do with Irish republicanism, "pseudoscience", ... the list is endless. The result is frustration, which leads to #1.

Malleus Fatuorum 01:09, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

There is much that your 1&2 have in common with mine, so I certainly do not disagree. Our point 2s both indicate deep underlying problems, and our point 1s refer to flawed or inadequate responses to those problems. Geometry guy 01:31, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree with that analysis. Malleus Fatuorum 01:49, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

• Restating: There are two groups of people consistently interacting in a dysfunctional manner: editors who are "posting in haste, often ill-informed, misunderstanding facts, jumping to conclusions, basing their view on preconceptions". The second group is admins who, as a response, " non-admin editors like naughty children". . The locus of the problem centers around intractable topics that are POV magnets. There is often little hope that the hasty editors can be educated into better behavior, and even if some could be (perhaps over time), a new crop of them arises weekly. Therefore, the only possible area in which a systemic solution can be found is within admin behavior. Ling.Nut3 (talk) 06:42, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

• I would add to this analysis the thought that it is the "anyone can edit" policy that lies at the root of our ills. This "pillar" empowers uninformed, hasty editing, it deprecates knowledge and expertise in favour of whims and factoids, and it fosters disrespect for the careful work of others. It is a recipe for conflict, argument, edit-warring, abuse and, ultimately, blocks. What are the chances of any modification of this policy? Pretty well zero, I'd say. It is up to admins to look beyond superficial "civility" issues and to employ tact, sensitivity and common sense; a few do, but not enough. Brianboulton (talk) 15:20, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oh, Nutty One, your two groups are not mutually exclusive (often admins are both). The environment at AN/I is that while an admin can post in haste, misunderstand facts, jump to conclusions, etc as you state, any non-admin will be treated like a naughty child if they say anything the admins don't agree with. To me, the fundamental problem here is that AN/I is dominated by the irresponsible, the responsible generally won't go anywhere near it, and non-admins most clearly don't have the same rights there to speak as admins do. Admins can come in and lob charges at regular editors with narry a diff, but if a non-admin challenges them, they are ignored or chastized. Different standards for different types of editors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

• Right on, Wise One. What will it take? Occupy Misplaced Pages? Gandydancer (talk) 16:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
• How about a strike? Geometry guy 01:29, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

• Admins seem to play two roles: janitors and bouncers. The first role is more quiet and constructive, and is explicitly embraced; the second is just as common but left largely unremarked. Bouncers are empowered to act alone, using their best judgment to mete out warnings and punishment to unruly barflies. Why is the bouncer model inappropriate for Misplaced Pages in the long run? I suspect that Malleus would point out that the weak link in the model is the quality of the admins' "best judgment". However, that line of arguing merely leaves us focusing on admins' shortcomings rather than a systemic remedy. Unfortunately, the knee-jerk response to calls for a systemic remedy to any problem on Misplaced Pages usually involves large doses of WP:BUREAU. So... how do we move away from the bouncer model without imposing additional WP:BUREAU? How do we redefine the roles and standard operating procedures of admins? Ling.Nut3 (talk) 05:45, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

• I think it's a crying shame that some admins manage to get all admins such a bad name. Thing is, just as in real life, good news and good practices don't make the headlines; all those good admins are quietly beavering away doing good stuff, and never coming to anyone's attention. IRL, the worst problems in any justice system always stem from nebulous, undefined laws. They're open to many levels of interpretation, and some police officers will use that vindictively to hound someone, some will just apply it differently due to regional / background differences, and a rare few will try to find out what the norm is in definition, and apply that standard in all cases. The only long-term solution to this is to ensure that there is only one way to interpret the problematic law in question. We have similar idiocies in real-life laws, where the definition is left to what the prosecution can persuade the jury into deciding on; viz. the ridiculous "partial nudity" thing in photographs / images. Now that's just pathetic. It can mean anything from wearing nothing but a thong, right up to wearing everything except gloves, hat and a full-face mask .... Whenever I see those IRL, I always think: "Oh, for fuck's sake! What collection of moronic, incompetent drunkards worded that piece of crap?!" Pesky (talk …stalk!) 07:41, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Record jury deliberation ...

Although I realise it is a silly situation to find the deadline gone and no word from anyone, I thought we might be amused by these RL snippets of jurors, who also perhaps wished they hadn't been "chosen": Longest criminal jury deliberation (UK) and (US). My favourite sentence is that last one in the US story ... Chaosdruid (talk) 13:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

What happened to "Choker"? Is he still on the run? Ning-ning (talk) 14:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Oakland city attorney John Russo confirms in this video (3:48—3:54) on 4 February 2009 that "the alleged leader of the 'Riders' Frank Vazquez fled the country to avoid prosecution and to this day is still on the lam" --Senra (talk) 16:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

• In any intelligent, normal civilised judicuary, if the verdict were delayed because of absent judges one would just assume (with some justification) that they had all gone racing, hunting or shooting. However, on Wikipdia one assumes thay have gone on a convention to support one legged, black lesbians or over-educated heterosexual women so hideously ugly and sensitive that they are unable to find a husband. Failing that, the rights of men with no penises to father children and take French classes. Heaven forbid that they should actually spend 10 minutes asking themselves why on earth thay accepted this stupid, naive and ridiculous case - destined only to bring them (not Malleus) into disrepute before they had even started the job. Giacomo Returned 18:53, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

• Are you implying that going hunting is a better reason for being absent than supporting one legged, black lesbians? :) --Conti|✉ 19:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
• Giacomo, since we're on Malleus' talk page (a well-known free-speech zone with vague boundaries), can I just say that your joke really isn't funny? Jesus! MF, sorry for pontificating in your user space. Drmies (talk) 19:31, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
• Joke? Many of my best friends belong to minority groups and all are very worthy. I merely point out the difference between Misplaced Pages's judiciary and those of other places. Giacomo Returned 21:17, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Everybody is in a minority group of one. Even identical twins. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 21:46, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the folks spouting that sexist nonsense about black one-legged lesbians, or the offensive bullshit about ugly women (who all of a sudden also happen to be straight) who can't get married are still in a majority in many parts of the world. They populate freshman classes, mostly; it doesn't even rise to the level of sophomoric. Drmies (talk) 22:39, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Ito-Balmond Serpentine Pavilion

This is confusing. Where actually is it and what actually is it? It was categorized as a defunct museum in London and a restauraunt in France but it located in Tokyo! Any ideas?♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:39, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

It was a temporary structure built in Hyde Park in London (it's a tradition that the Serpentine Gallery builds a new extension each year, which is then dismantled and sold). It was re-erected in St Tropez in France to serve as a restaurant. Tokyo only comes into it as the home of the architect who designed it (Toyo Ito). 78.149.252.90 (talk) 14:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

• Indeed. I like to visit the new pavilion at the Serpentine Gallery each year, myself. The Crystal Palace was similar too — another temporary structure in Hyde Park which was moved elsewhere. Warden (talk) 23:44, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

"of"

Every time I listen to the radio, when I hear someone say "the x of y", I mentally change it to "y's x". I blame you for this, as I'm sure it's one day going to send me to Prestwich Hospital. Parrot of Doom 08:43, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

You need to relax with a nice tea's cup. Ning-ning (talk) 09:06, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

…but if you do end up in hospital, I'm sure MF will bring you a grapes' bunch. Ning-ning (talk) 09:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Not in all cases PoD. Consider 'the book of Job' which, incidentally, may be an apt reflection on the sufferings of Malleus Malleus' suffering here --Senra (talk) 11:24, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

"The time has come," the Walrus said

"To talk of many things:

Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—

Of cabbages—and kings—

And why the sea is boiling hot—

And whether pigs have wings".

(from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)

Malleus. Your user-page is always a delightful read. I learn something new from it every day. I rarely post because I find it hard to contribute eloquently and constructively to the conversations. I also struggle with my spelling and grammar thus I never wish to show myself up to you for the idiot that I am. Still, in the spirit of sharing my learning ...

I was prompted to recall the above extract from Lewis Carroll's The Walrus and the Carpenter following the earlier "Regarding AN/I" post by Elkman (talk · contribs). I started wondering where the vitriol had come from. I began by reading his user page. This lead me, via his RfA, to the I-35W Mississippi River bridge article, which in turn led me to the NTSB report of the Collapse of I-35W Highway Bridge Minneapolis, Minnesota August 1, 2007. Reading that report, I discovered (p. 48) that in 2007 there were 72,500 bridges in the Fedral Highway Administrations (FHWA) National Bridge Inventory rated as Structurally Defficient, as was the I-35W Mississippi River Bridge. The report qualifies this by saying that "according to the FHWA, a status of Structurally Deficient does not indicate that a bridge is unsafe but only that the structure is in need of maintenance, repair, or eventual rehabilitation" but still, 12% of FHWA bridges are marked this way? Wow!

... let us all continue "to talk of many things"; a process I am certain drowns out the occasional vitriol that comes this way. I wish you well, Malleus --Senra (talk) 17:12, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

In engineering-ese, "structurally deficient" doesn't mean what it sounds like; it means "in need of maintenance of some form", rather than "unstable structure". "Functionally obsolete" is the jargon for "doesn't meet safety standards", and that's the one you need to worry about. 78.146.193.88 (talk) 21:00, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Oooh, new diagnosis! Now That's what my body is – "functionally obsolete". Or just plain old "past its best-before date" ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 07:33, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Fook? Ning-ning (talk) 17:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi (Reminder)

Hi Malleus. How are you? Please do not forget to cast your eyes on "Broken-Hearted Girl". :D I will wait. :) See you soon. Take care. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 14:08, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

As the date of my sentencing approaches I'm finding it very difficult to think about any articles, even my own. Malleus Fatuorum 22:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Wait! Sentencing? Jivesh1205 (Talk) 04:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry Malleus. Forget about the article. I can totally understand how you might be feeling right now. Jivesh1205 (Talk) 07:14, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Plausible candidate

An editor has suggested a possible explanation (aka plausible candidate) for a question you may have been asking since last summer: why the heck was the first Arbcom-L leak about you? It is just a conjecture, but the whole RTV/socking/alternate account issue, and the interplay between plagiarism and copyediting is very suggestive to me, even though I do not have the background in psychology that you have. Food for thought anyway. Geometry guy 23:03, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

The email discussion I had with Iridescent, in which I was asking for his advice, was so banal that it's difficult to imagine any other explanation. But poor old William Leadford did some useful stuff nevertheless. I continue to find the accounts of the leaking incident that have been given so far to be unconvincing, particularly in conjunction with Iridescent's subsequent disappearance, but I doubt the truth will ever be told. Malleus Fatuorum 23:35, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

It was me, man. I'm every member of ArbCom and Misplaced Pages Review rolled into one. Troll wins flawless victory. I'm a winner now. --Moni3 (talk) 23:40, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I've been drawing up a mental list this evening of all those administrators who are or have been (in the case of those now blocked) habitually way more uncivil than I've ever been, and the effort it took to prise the admin bit from their hands, as opposed to just indef blocking a powerless peasant like me. Naturally I haven't put that list anywhere on Misplaced Pages, as to do so would be considered an improper attack on the establishment. But it's a pretty big list. Malleus Fatuorum 23:47, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

@Moni3. I'm sure there's a lot more of it going on even at the highest levels than people suppose. I recall the case of Pastor Theo's RfA, which from memory I one of the few to oppose. But it just didn't smell right. Mind you, I think I also opposed Ched's RfA, which I now think was a mistake on my part. Malleus Fatuorum 23:52, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, my, I've lost the plot ... it's worse than a bad opera. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:59, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I've been impressed by Ched recently too, but he was very much involved with PumpkinSky and BarkingMoon (being the only admin the latter would trust with his identity). My meta-opinion is that wiki-life, as with life, is way too complicated for simplistic analyses to be a helpful guide. Errors of judgement are often a matter of opinion, even with hindsight. Geometry guy 00:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

He was, and that probably needs to be explained. I was accused somewhere of opposing pretty much every candidate at RfA, but on closer inspection it appears that my vote corresponds about 66% of the time to the actual outcome. I am no disruptive influence, simply a voice of sanity. Most of the time anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 00:20, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Crap, I still haven't caught the plot, but Ched is the one who threatened to block me, and then asked if we should discuss via email (glad I don't do that/didn't do that), but do wish someone would give me the "What's a Willy" version here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I sometimes wonder whatever happened to DHMO/Giggy? It always seemed unlikely to me that he would simply stay away. Geometry guy 01:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Dude speak, little substance. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but that was just a random guess: there has been no edit analysis. Geometry guy 02:14, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

No article overlap, but a case of high school pop culture turns into college biology student? But why do I have the vague (unsure?) idea that Giggy was Australian? Sure do have the dude speak in common, and that would explain a lot. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm quite sure Giggy was Australian. Malleus Fatuorum 03:23, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, that was a dud, then! So, Malleus, I guess Rlevse added another delay to your "sentencing"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:25, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Probably. They seem to be looking for any excuse not to creep out of the woodwork. Can't say I blame them though, given their history. Malleus Fatuorum 03:31, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I got a kick out of Jclemens posting that it's because the new arbs are killing 'em on the email list by responding to everything. Imagine the verbiage they'd be dealing with if they still had Carcharoth !! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:54, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

:-) Carcharoth (talk) 04:11, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Moni3 you are Tiger blood. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:27, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

What more is necessary to write FAs than cocaine and hookers? --Moni3 (talk) 00:29, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

A non-battlefield winning attitude. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Not sure about hookers, too distracting, but I do recall James Cameron saying once that he found it difficult to write without a bottle of whisky on his desk. Never tried cocaine myself though; I'm a child of the '70s, who tried to peep through The Doors of Perception. It was a most incredible experience, but one that I wouldn't repeat now. Malleus Fatuorum 00:39, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

If you should ever choose to expand your education on pharmaceutical fungi, they grow in their millions here in the New Forest ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 12:32, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Query re template usage in FAC article

This is not a dramatic issue but I would appreciate your comments and those of your stalkers, assuming that you do not mind the intrusion. If you do then feel free to delete this. Regarding the use of Template:ODNBweb in a potential FA, I have received a comment that "Bibliography entry for ODNB doesn't mention the author, and is rather oddly formatted". The format etc is entirely a consequence of using that template & I have vague memories that a certain Malleus Fatuorum may have introduced it to me. I stress the word vague as I am currently suffering a quite severe case of sleep deprivation. Obviously, I could convert to a "standard" citation format and append Template:ODNBsub, but I am curious. - Sitush (talk) 00:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

That template is nothing to do with me, and I wasn't even aware of it until you posted here. Malleus Fatuorum 01:02, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Must have been a prior GAR. I did say that it was a vague memory! - Sitush (talk) 01:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Sitush, I noticed that comment on the FAC, and I recently commented at Template talk:ODNBweb. I'll say more at the FAC, or on your talk page, about the various points raised at that FAC, but wanted to leave a note here in case you are still watching this section. Carcharoth (talk) 02:16, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Why am I not surprised at the presence of a particular editor in that template's history? Parrot of Doom 08:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

stopping by

Hello all. I had a link to this page, so I thought I'd stop by. Is there anything I need to answer for or respond to? Seems I have a LOT of reading and research to do. — Ched :  ?  03:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what the questions are, except you seem to have defended rather vigorously Rlevse/Barking Moon turned PumpkinSky, while he was beating on FAC. Hard to know if that means anything, but equally hard to know whose judgment can be trusted lately. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

All I know is that there's something dodgey going on. Malleus Fatuorum 03:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) To the best of my knowledge BarkingMoon was not Rlevse. xe (BM) was first accused of being Mattisse, and when that proved to be untrue the Rlevse accusation came up. Yes, I did defend him because I did (and still do) believe he was not a returning anybody, but rather a former IP who registered. I have often stuck my neck out, and often had it substantially whacked upon, if I get the impression that someone is being unjustly picked upon. I only made one post I believe to the FAC RfC though. I thought the idea of some sort of confirmation or election process was a good idea. I noticed that those of you who were familiar with the area supported a "status quo" however, so I just left it at that. And I completely agree that it's difficult at the moment to know who to trust. — Ched :  ?  04:06, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't surprise me at all that Rlevse came back. I got drawn into the discussions around the Yogo sapphire article, which is where I think I first encountered PumpkinSky (possibly at DYK as well), but didn't see any tell-tale signs. It's all rather depressing, as I don't think it will end here and may get even messier. Carcharoth (talk) 04:24, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it will either, as some editors have not yet been convincing about what they did or didn't know. There seems to be a culture of corruption here. Malleus Fatuorum 04:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Ched, you can always trust me. I'm so Alzheimered that I forgot the passwords to my sock accounts, only one of which was that of a 'crat. Drmies (talk) 19:10, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I think wikipedia is too disorganized for there to be enough of a conspiracy for there to be actual corruption. It's more of an anarchy and at the moment, with a mob mentality that is easily triggered. The Rlevse/PumpkinSky tempest being the current one, but the whole thing you, Malleus, have been enduring over your unfortunate use of the "c-word" is another. All I know is that I have seen wiki go nuts on an annual basis around February and March for several years now, so maybe it's all just cabin fever or something. I've had a couple of people exhibit odd behavior in my off-wiki RL this past week or so that I can only attribute to seasonal affective disorder, so who knows? Maybe there are just aliens out there aiming a paranoia beam at all of us. I'm frustrated because I see a lot of good people at each other's throats for insufficient reason on this latest thing. Rlevse/PumpkinSky seems like a good egg, Sandy seems like a good egg, Malleus is a good egg (if a bit cracked at times -- noogies) and everyone else here too. What does everyone REALLY want? I don't think someone's head on a platter, I think we just all want someone to hug us and tell us that we are right and everyone else is a meanie. How can we all step back and stop beating on the horse carcass??? Montanabw 23:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I think I'd just settle for a bit less of the stuff that the Mr Angrys come out with if you want to change "Bristol, United Kingdom" to "Bristol, England". It's the constant drip, drip, drip of being told what a rude, ignorant, immature ... waste of space you are that Misplaced Pages would be better off without. "Shape up or ship out" indeed. Malleus Fatuorum 00:30, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll buy that. Of all things, there is a minor editing dispute at the donkey article. Dana has quit trying to confront JLAN and since I called him a jackass already once and refractored it, I've now blown my wad, besides, if I engage too much, folks might not be able to tell the difference, given the topic. Montanabw 06:02, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• <placeholder> ... I very much want to comment on this, but because I've actually gone out and had a few drinks, I think I should wait until morning. .... ahhhh hell ... wtf. I would much more rather deal with a person that tells me "pull your head out of your ass" than some sneaky slimy "If you don't do this, I'm going to tell that" kind of crap. The more I learn, the more I read, the more this place upsets me. I've probably said more than I should .. but DAMN this place pisses me off. I'd rather deal with 100 Ottava's than a single one of the sneaky, "I haz power" manipulating bullshit artists simply because they think they have some sort of power. .... on a website? .. really? Some fucking asshole kid that is barely out of diapers plays some "buddy buddy" game to get a button to block or delete something somehow becomes untouchable? Don't get me wrong .. I know I'm every bit as guilty - but I honestly thought I was trying to be better and make the "site" better. ... sigh .. why do I get the feeling I'm gonna have a "you fucked up" banner on my page tomorrow? ... whatever. Mal .. I do truly admire you and your integrity ... so damn few people in the world anymore that have that. later folks. — Ched :  ?  08:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, dear, is JLAN being bad again? I dropped a few words onto his talk page in the hopes that something good might come of it. I think that's really crying out for either an RfC or a topic ban on anything to do with horse heights and breed societies, broadly construed ... I can't think of anything else to suggest; some excellent contributions, but also some entrenched glitches in a few area. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 12:44, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Two matters

Hi Malleus, how are you? I was reading the last section of The Emigrants (a great book), and wanted to type for you here a part of the opening of that section, in which a German kid is flying into Manchester in 1939 (never to leave again). But the passage is a bit long, and the rest of the chapter is fantastic (lots and lots on Manchester neighborhoods, industrialism, immigration, Jews), so I have decided to just tell you "hey, read this book," if you haven't already. (Here's a note and a quote, from after the boy lands. I don't know if you can see this Google Book link or not.) Also, when you and Sitush meet up (I hope you do), make sure that he buys you a beer. He knows why. Happy days, Drmies (talk) 17:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

That's an interesting perspective on mid-20th century Manchester. I haven't fully made my mind up yet about the meetup; to a degree it depends on the outcome of you-know-what. And to be honest I've written or reviewed approximately zero here in the last couple of months, and I'm beginning to find I don't miss the hassle. Malleus Fatuorum 18:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Hassle? I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm starting to wish that Ottava Rima would start socking--it would save me a lot of work trying to add factoids to stubs such as Le Rime. Drmies (talk) 19:06, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The hassle, for instance, of the interminable and tedious arguments about whether or not wife selling is sexist, whether Bury is in Lancashire or Greater Manchester, what the significance of V for Vendetta is for the Guy Fawkes article, whether it should be "hung drawn and quartered" or "hanged drawn and quartered", anything to do with Irish republicanism ... the list is endless. And just try opposing a Brazilian article at FAC if you think you're hard enough. Malleus Fatuorum 19:32, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Look on the bright side. You could have been an administrator, having to defend the very existence of these hassles. I now speak as a peon, of course. (I prefer that term over "peasant", which you used above, since "peon" also suggests "pawn". BTW, "hanged, drawn..." is impossible with those two plosives, IMO.) Drmies (talk) 20:08, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

"I could have been a contender" eh? Actually, the official sentence was hanged, drawn and quartered. Malleus Fatuorum 03:27, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Good Article lists

Would you support a Good Article list status for good lists which are not quite there as a featured lists? If not why not?♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:11, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't, no more than I'd support a good picture process. The featured list criteria don't seem particularly onerous to me, and I can't see which of them could usefully be weakened to allow "good" lists. But you might like to run the idea past someone with more experience of lists than I have, such as Peter I. Vardy. Malleus Fatuorum 03:24, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I thought you'd have that perspective given that the lists generally don't require as much as a full blooded articles. But I have seen some lists fail FLC like the List of Russian explorers which seem good but failed so that was why I brought it up.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:55, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the review, but why not just fix the article so that it does meet the FL criteria? Malleus Fatuorum 21:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

If editors want a GL process, they can set it up. Like Malleus, I wouldn't personally support or encourage it, as I think it might misdirect resources relative to the size of the issue being addressed. The true worth of GA, in my view, is that it is an honest attempt to tackle the vast number of really poor articles on Misplaced Pages. Even discounting articles that almost nobody reads (and I am not taking a swipe at FA here: almost all FA's are very well read in comparison to the huge tail of articles that almost no one is interested in*), there are hundreds of thousands of these. No "featured" (i.e., "best work") style process can deal with this problem in the next millennium.

I do not see a similar case for lists: there are far fewer of these, and it is far more reasonable to attempt to bring the majority to FL standard in a reasonable timescale. Geometry guy 23:14, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

• PS. Just click "random" to see what I mean. Regular readers of this talk page may be amused to note that on trying this myself, the first random article I got was Willy Will. It gets about 400 hits per month, which is relatively high compared to the tail (but still way lower than the outrageously high bar of 3000 hits per month used by some editors in their analyses). My second try got South Carolina's 9th congressional district which is more typical (less than 200 hits per month). One day somebody might bring this to GA or even FA standard, but expecting that to happen across the board of articles like this is a pipe-dream.

• For part of last year I mooched around New Pages a bit, which is just about as dispiriting an experience as anything on Misplaced Pages. When you begin to see the amount of crap that's being added daily you realise that one thing is inevitable; the overall quality of Misplaced Pages is getting lower and lower, and there's no process that can turn the sewage into something at least respectable on any scale matching the deluge. Malleus Fatuorum 00:22, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

  That depends crucially on how you measure (or weight) "overall quality". See below. Geometry guy 00:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

  It does, but I don't really have a problem with the "XYZ is a canton/county/province in PQR" articles, even though Dr Blofeld and I haven't always seen eye-to-eye on what I've called micro-stubs. But I think we're over that now. What I find depressing is the flood of what can only be called illiteracy: poor spelling and even worse grammar. Malleus Fatuorum 01:18, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't personally support or encourage it, as I think it might misdirect resources relative to the size of the issue being addressed ... In fact, IMO, this is exactly what Featured Lists did to Featured Articles. In some senses (not all, no generalizations here, I know of many very hard to write Featured Lists), Featured Lists are easier to write and review than Featured Articles, so that process drained resources from FAC. Other than that, I like the rest of this discussion :) Especially the part about Sue Gardner :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I believe Malleus it needs quite a lot of referencing work. My first one at random was The McPherson Tape... Says it all really..♦ Dr. Blofeld 23:46, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Then it would probably need just as much referencing work to get through a Good List process as well. Malleus Fatuorum 00:14, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I'm encouraged by the fact that most articles are uninteresting dross. There is no priority to improve them beyond stub level: as long as they have a reference or two, and a wikilink or two, they are no cause for shame (a WikiProject to work on such a minimal requirement would be worthwhile; several related projects already exist).

Misplaced Pages has nearly 4 million articles, so it is a relief to know that 95% or more aren't interesting enough to make into great pieces. It means that we only have to deal with a few hundred thousand articles that really need to meet at least the GA criteria. GA has the potential to handle 5000 articles per year and more, so can make substantial impact in 10 years. It also means that each GA is a larger contribution to that goal than it is towards the unrealistic aim of making the entire encyclopedia GA standard. Geometry guy 00:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

That's an interesting perspective. Do you believe that there's an upper limit on the number of articles that GA could handle annually? Malleus Fatuorum 01:22, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course (the number of edits Misplaced Pages can handle per year is bounded), but I think you are asking a more refined question. The evidence to date is that the number of articles GA can handle continues to grow. The question is why, and how far can such growth go. Here is a summary of my analysis to date.

The reason for the success (aka continued growth of articles/year) of GA is that it has an excellent conversion rate from article improvement effort to reviewer effort. The rise to respectability (or at least notability) of Misplaced Pages means that there is no shortage of editors wanting to improve articles. Improving articles to GA standard involves a lot of work, perhaps 20 times as much work as reviewing an article against the GA criteria. The precise figure is not crucial: sometimes it takes less work, sometimes a lot more. Lets pretend 20 is a plausible factor. Then GA thrives by converting close to 1/20th of the improvement effort into reviewer effort. It does so by encouraging nominators to become reviewers, and by only requiring one reviewer to list an article. If GA required 5 reviewers to list an article, it would need to improve the conversion rate from improvement effort to reviewer effort by a considerable amount (not as much as 5 times, as the multiple reviewers would not all have to cover the same ground, but certainly more than twice). This is the underlying reason for the scalability of GA: "one nominator, one reviewer" is a simplistic explanation for the balance, but the 1:1 balance between nominators and reviewers (rather that 1:5) is significant in the high conversion rate between nominator and reviewer effort: the average nominator does not have to do a vast amount of reviewing to balance the work they create.

So how far can this go? Well, GA certainly needs to adapt to growth, for example by being easy to use: templates and bots have been introduced to help editors focus on the reviewing process, but where the mechanics are still confusing, they need to be simplified. Ultimately, assuming continued growth, the nominations page will have to be reorganized, and probably split into subpages.

However, in my view the main threats to GA growth are: (1) reduced interest in improving Misplaced Pages; (2) falling conversion rates between improvement effort and reviewer effort. Consequently, any strategy for GA growth should aim: (1) to make improving articles to GA standard attractive to editors; (2) to encourage the conversion of as large a slice of that improvement effort into reviewing as possible.

In the last few years, the backlog strongly suggests that conversion rates, i.e., issue (2), are currently the main limiting factor. The backlog has been an ongoing concern at GA, but it is a symptom of success, not a problem, so I've always opposed attempts at cure. However, last month I had an idea that might be the next step in addressing issue (2) without undermining (1). Whether now is the time for my idea, I do not know, but I certainly see such changes as part of a future in which GA growth reaches 10-20000 articles per year. Geometry guy 03:22, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a huge "shortage of editors wanting to improve articles"! After falling ever since early 2007, the number of editors making +100 edits per month in article space has supposedly stabilized at around 3,500 (we'll see), and we know most of those are just reverting vandalism, adding crufty extras, or concentrate on either DYKs or FAs, both on tiny topics. I'm sure GA has been successful in channeling the efforts of many of the rest, but if it has not yet hit the outside of the envelope in terms of the overall number of editors available, then it very soon will. Johnbod (talk) 03:47, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this is a major issue, which is likely to impact (and no doubt already affects) GA, but much of the decline you note comes from the maturing of Misplaced Pages: article growth is now falling as there are fewer new articles to create; improving interesting articles is harder, as many are now more developed than stubs. DYK is a good example of an area where substantial change will take place: its focus on the newly created will increasingly misdirect efforts, and that is not sustainable. Geometry guy 04:00, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I have no data to back up my opinion, but I suspect that the number of reviewers has declined even more sharply than the number of active editors. And obviously, without reviewers there will be no GAs or FAs. Malleus Fatuorum 04:14, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

There's no evidence for that at GA, where output (a measure of reviewer effort) continues to grow. Here's a graph illustrating the difference:

Geometry guy 02:00, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

@Johnbod—don't believe everything Sue Gardner tells you. A statistical blip of a surge in "editors with 100+ edits" in December allows her to claim (correctly) that the number for December 2011 is higher than that for December 2010, but it's extremely misleading. The raw data is here, and it's immediately apparent that every key indicator (number of casual editors, number of regular editors, new page creations, total edit count) has been nosediving for years, other than mean article size (and the rise in that can be accounted for by the drop in new page creations). Even in December (the time of the supposed surge in editing) the most important indicator of all when it comes to Misplaced Pages's general health, total edit count, was at its lowest level since the pre-Siegenthaler days of June 2006. 188.29.24.41 (talk) 13:31, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I tend to agree, hence the scepticism above, but the "nosedive" phase stopped by late 2010, and 2011 was the USS Misplaced Pages slowly settling into the mud at the bottom, I hope. Subjectively, I do see signs in my own area (where there is absolutely no shortage of low-hanging fruit) of revived and usefully directed activity. What we still lack (as SG Sue Gardner is well aware) is ways to analyse the edit stats to sort text addition from the other stuff. Johnbod (talk) 15:23, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The other SG ... <groan> ... even on a page I frequent. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Oops, the usual grovelling apologies! Johnbod (talk) 15:38, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Such a nice man ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:58, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I see there's a navigation button to find featured articles - the best articles, and one to find random articles - which seems to throw up mostly the worst, but not one to find good articles - which would probably show the greatest number of articles that we wouldn't be ashamed of. Something seems amiss there. Richerman (talk) 23:45, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you remember how hard we had to fight even to get the little green blob on GAs? GA has long been considered a worthless competitor to DYK. Malleus Fatuorum 23:56, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I put an article up for DYK recently and had to review another one as part of the process. What I found was that there are some people who seem to see notching up DYKs as an end in itself and put a minimum of effort into creating a short article for just that purpose. Trying to get the creator of the one I reviewed to improve the article was like pulling teeth. I was then told that it was 'misleading' to say that websites were unreliable as sources and that most of the new articles were created using them. I despair sometimes. Richerman (talk) 00:07, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

DYK is an anomaly that's well past its sell-by date. Malleus Fatuorum 00:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Bah, it's well past the salmonella date! The minute Nikkimaria turns her back, same ole same ole. RFC, replace DYK with GAs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:34, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

You gave GA a good tongue-lashing a few years ago, and it responded positively to become what it is today, which is nothing that any of us need to be ashamed of. DYK on the other hand is a permanent blot on the main page. Why? Malleus Fatuorum 00:42, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Nope - no DYK, no ITN, no FP, no clutter of any kind. This is what a wiki front page should look like, not a design that looked dated when it was was last changed in 2004. 188.29.238.214 (talk) 00:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Nice, but won't work. That site has a "team" (staff). We have "volunteers", many of whom want their day in the sun, regardless of the greater good. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Way ahead of you. 78.147.136.64 (talk) 00:54, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Not even ... a growing list of employees sucking up money on junkets, several of whom know nothing of content creation (with a few exceptions like Ironholds, MRG). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:58, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I share your concerns about junkets and jobs for the boys, particularly with chapters like the UK one. But I also find it difficult to believe that anyone who's had their "day in the Sun" on the main page would ever want another one; I've always found it to be a nightmare. Malleus Fatuorum 01:09, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

But you know the short stint as a DYK (that no one reads) is nothing like the 24 hours TFA that everyone reads; DYKs get face time with little accountability or improvement. Shoot, I've tired of finding huge copyvio, unreliable sources, even flatout errors in DYK, and realizing that no one cares, no one notices, no one reads them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:13, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I did a stint of new-page patrolling last year, just to see what was going on there really. I'd guess that I flagged rather few as clear copyright violations, but some just stood out as having been copied from somewhere because of jagged or archaic phrasing. Something needs to change. Malleus Fatuorum 01:28, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

DYK is, in its present form, an anachronism. Creating new articles or improving stubs to start class is no longer the order of the day. If something like "Did you know" is retained, it should be based upon articles of much higher quality than newly created ones. Misplaced Pages has nearly 4 million articles now: we don't need to advertise that there is something new being added every day. There is something new to be found in tens of thousands of well-established and high quality articles, a resource which is almost entirely wasted at present. Geometry guy 02:20, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The thing is they brag about having 20 million articles and how many of them exactly are even readable let alone good quality across all wikipedias? The problem is that wikipedia has always been set up in a way which makes it more a rough encyclopedia development charity project rather than a formal encyclopedia. Most of the time when you are looking for a decent article on a subject you really want to read about it isn't there and is either a barely outlined stub or waffles and is unsourced to the point you can't read it and extract the important points, let alone believe a single word it says. I mean look at the article we have on Calais, very poorly researched (before I started on it) and its typical of the level of quality on important topics on here. Sometimes I do think it would be nice to search for anything and to not have to do any work to the article like a proper encyclopedia. At times the problem is so bad I just don't know where to begin as however hard you work on an article the majority in the categories need the same amount of work to the point you think, this task is impossible. I think what we all want here is a comprehensive universally high quality encyclopedia but the whole openness and set up of wikipedia means just the opposite of this. And I think that this very problem will lead to another fork of wikipedia in the future but something which will actually attract the pool of editors needed to write quality content who are compensated for their efforts instead of the people who think they govern it. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:29, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow! "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." (

I still think a monthly prize given to the best article expansions of existing articles and core articles is the best way to go about it. DYK is flawed, so is wikipedia, but we do need some mechanism to get editors enmasse to improve existing content.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:33, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Pretty please?

Could you cast your expert eye over The Meermin slave mutiny? Nortonius and I are working it up in the hopes of getting it to FA, and a really sound set (or three sets, or whatever) of eyes polishing it up would be greatly appreciated. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 12:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, as you're one of the few not snapping at my heels in the ongoing ArbCom trial I guess I owe you one. I might not get to it today, but hopefully over the weekend, depending of course on what ArbCom's proposed decision proves to be. Malleus Fatuorum 20:31, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I try always to approach that kind of thing from a purely principle-centred basis, keeping the principles as simple as possible. I don't always succeed, as I also admit to having OCD and C-PTSD, with a particular personal hatred of injustice and abuse-of-power things, and a strong-as-steel belief in the one of the Ten Commandments which says "Thou shalt not bear false witness" (though my adherence to many of the others is often a bit shaky ... lol!). I just hope that intelligence, justice, insight and basic humane-ness (not quite the same thing as "humanity", which can be used simply as a word to describe "all humans", many of whom are inhumane in the extreme!) will enlighten the decision-making process. For my eyes, the solution is incredibly simple, and very humane, and totally reasonable. Not that I'm biased in favour of my own solution, or anything ... the simplest, most effective, most humane, most thoughtful solution is usually the best one. I see a three-stage solution here. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:00, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

Elen alerted Sandy et alia about Alarbus's known sockpuppetry.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

There's so much deception here you'd think a plain speaker like me would be welcomed, not pilloried. Malleus Fatuorum 20:35, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

A Community of Witches

Hello there Malleus! I've recently been trying to pull the article at A Community of Witches up to FA status, and in the FA review User:SandyGeorgia noted their opinion that it needs improvements made to several areas of the text, and recommended that you look it over. No pressure to do so obviously, but as you are recommended, it would certainly be approciated. Many thanks. (Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:32, 4 February 2012 (UTC))

I was forced to study sociology as part of my psychology degree, and I hated it ... but on the other hand this is about modern-day witchcraft, so that retrieves it as far as I'm concerned. The article would probably have benefited from either a peer review or a more rigorous GAN before being taken to FAC, but that's water under the bridge now. My time here may be limited (see my reply to Pesky above), but when I've looked over her article I'll try and take a look through yours. If I were you I'd concentrate on getting the lead right first, as you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. Right off the bat I notice that the opening sentence of the third paragraph repeats what we were told right at the start of the article, that the book is sociological study of the Wiccan community in the Northeastern United States. In fact that third paragraph somewhat contradicts the earlier statement that it's a sociological study of the Wiccan and wider Pagan community in the Northeastern United States. Malleus Fatuorum 20:51, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your input Malleus! Much appreciated (Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:29, 5 February 2012 (UTC))

So it's not about the local coven, then? ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 15:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Reginald of Durham

You might be able to help with this article. I maintain that there has been misinformation in it for five years, but another user has been edit-warring to keep it in. What do you think? 94.196.125.185 (talk) 17:44, 5 February 2012 (UTC)