Misplaced Pages

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Archiving a talk page

How do editors feel about archiving some of this talk page. Here is a link on different methods. Any suggestions welcome. --Domer48 (talk) 21:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

This was long overdue. --Helenalex (talk) 10:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

NPOV check

This article raises serious NPOV issues.

1. The further down one goes, the less NPOV the text and the more pro-Orange Order (or more correctly, the more 'isn't it a wonderful organisation') the tone gets. In particular, the article's repeat use of 'brethren' to describe the Order implies a relationship between author, reader and topic that breaches NPOV. 'In house' terms used by any organisation should be used sparingly or in quotes, not in general language throughout the article.
2. Its coverage of the alleged negatives of the order, though strongish in some areas, is not sustained.
3. The list of charitable work by the Order again adds to the 'aren't they great!' tone. Most organisations are involved in charity work but Misplaced Pages doesn't list the work in detail. It warrants no more than 1 or 2 paragraphs here, not a big chunk of the page.

Furthermore the article needs extensive wikifying and major editing, to conform to encyclopædic standards. FearÉIREANN\ 29 June 2005 23:44 (UTC)

In relation to point 1 here, I would suggest that the same argument could easily be applied to the recent 'adopted policy' with regard to IRA members (now most articles about IRA members read "volunteer" in place of "member", don't they?). I just checked the article and, as of the time of my writing this, the word brethren doesn't appear once - quite a change from the "repeat use of". Perhaps the change that has apparently been made to this article in regard to "in house terms" should be applied to articles about IRA members.

With regard to point 2, it is surely not in the remit of Misplaced Pages to strengthen negatives about organisations or people. Which neatly leads me on to point 3...

While I haven't read the whole article in many moons, perhaps noting the charitable work of the OO is necessary in presenting a certain amount of balance. Besides that, I think that charity is a often reasonably important aspect of Christian organisations - including the Orange Institution. --Setanta 09:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I think most of the NPOV problems have been sorted, thanks to long and tortuous debating and the occasional edit war over the last three and a half years. --Helenalex (talk) 10:00, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure that's the case Helenalex? As I suggested in my comments above, perhaps the article has merely been tipped to the other side, if it had been full of POV in the first instance. While I haven't read the article in full for ages now, I am fully aware of an increase in editing of Irish- and British-related articles since before the creation of the IRA WikiProject. I have no doubt that many articles have been created or revised from the particular viewpoint of the most active editors of that project due to the editing impetus which led to the creation of that WikiProject.

Again, although the members of the Orange Institution are referred to as "brethren" and although the article apparently contained more than one mention of that term in the past (note Jtdirl's "repeat use" above), the article now does not mention the term even once. I did a page search before posting my comment on Monday, our of curiosity.

I do not know Misplaced Pages's policy, should any exist, on the usage of what Jtdirl described above as "in house terms", but this clearly may have implications for the insistence on the use of, for example, the word "volunteer" instead of simply "member" in regard to members/volunteers of the various IRAs etc. --Setanta 07:01, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I doubt edit wars and tortuous debating have cleared up anything in regard to the naming of the Republic of Ireland, the flag of Northern Ireland the article on Northern Ireland and various other outstanding matters on Misplaced Pages, yet those matters have probably attracted edit warring and debate for a longer period of time than this one article. --Setanta 07:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

What specific things are you concerned about, in regards to this article? --Helenalex (talk) 09:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I thought I was quite specific above - and not just in regard to this article. --Setanta 17:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want to change 'members' to 'brethren' I don't have a problem with that, although others might. --Helenalex (talk) 21:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The post you are answering Setanta is from 2005 of course it is going to have a different version now and the points raised are long gone. So I see no need to try and stir up trouble re Volunteers based on a 3 and a half year post. BigDunc 21:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree Helenalex, no problem with 'brethren' and its hard to make out what the other things are Setanta's concerned about? "it is surely not in the remit of Misplaced Pages to strengthen negatives about organisations or people?" We should not include negative information on the OO? --Domer48_'fenian' 21:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

removing referenced information

Please do not remove referenced information, or alter the content of same. --Domer48 (talk) 15:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

"Not alter content of same"? Is that also a prohibition on correcting your standard mistakes and lack of punctuation? It's 'does', not 'dose', and 'Coogan', not 'coogan'.

There are no bans on Misplaced Pages on editing content.--Damac (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you please be civil Damac (talk) and look at WP:SKILL--BigDunc (talk) 15:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's not be tiresome. The source describes it as overtly political. The new wording demonstrates that. The substance has not been altered.Traditional unionist (talk) 16:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It has been altered it was overtly political according to the source not just described as political implying that maybe it wasn't. BigDunc (talk) 16:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

One non neutral authors opinion does not a statement of fact make. There is a case to be made that "maybe" it wasn't political from the start, your opinion together with Coogan's does not alter that. Stop edit warring.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

My opinion of the OO is not relevant but a reliable and verifiable ref should not be changed to suit a POV. BigDunc (talk) 17:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

TU I've been down this road with you already. Now do not distort referenced information. If you wish to challange this information, please provide a referenced source. Now there are three references on this, and none of them are Coogan's, if you like I can add one from him as well. Now do not distort this information. --Domer48 (talk) 17:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It has not been changed to any extent, other than to improve the quality of the reporting. One source of a non neutral author is not a statement of fact. He calls it political from its inception, that is said in the article. Job done.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The pair of you are edit warring,. Stop it, you are breaking wikipedia policies.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is a non neutral author TU? And please do not edit war by putting your own slant on a ref. BigDunc (talk) 17:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

TU, there are three references to back it up, I should know I added it. Now please do not alter the referenced information. --Domer48 (talk) 17:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

There is one reference.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

There is 3 here

1 For the Cause of Liberty, Terry Golway, Touchstone, 2000, ISBN 0-684-85556-9;
2. Ireland: A History, Robert Kee, Abacus, First published 1982 Revised edition published 2003, 2004 and 2005, ISBN 0-349-11676-8;
3.Ireland History of a Nation, David Ross, Geddes & Grosset, Scotland, First published 2002, Reprinted 2005 & 2006, ISBN 10: 1 84205 164 4 BigDunc (talk) 17:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

For these purposes quotations would be handy. You also need to get into the habit of including page numbers in your references, reader's can't be expected to readt the entire book for one reference.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:26, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok folks, I'm glad that the discussion has gone towards source verifiability rather then the psuedo-attack stuff I was seeing previously. Domer: Can you provide page #'s and that? I would agree with TU that it would be helpful, that we can verify the information (as well as the context that it was placed in).. it's also more useful for the average reader, if they pick up these books to see where the info is coming from. Let's AGF and Assume AGF of others, and move forward instead of squabbling. (BTW, spare a thought for us poor frozen SOB's here in the Northeast US.. we had a windchill of -23 Celsius yesterday. Yuck! ;) ) SirFozzie (talk) 17:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I have friends from MS here now, they're amazed to see a foot of snow!Traditional unionist (talk) 17:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Page numbers now provided. --Domer48 (talk) 17:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

And the quotations? Just in the talk page would be great.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• The Protestant only Orange Order, established in the 1790s to carry out sectarian warfare against the Catholic Defenders in the countryside, functioned as a shadow government that enforced the rules of Ulster’s religious caste system. For the Cause of Liberty, Terry Golway, Touchstone, 2000, ISBN 0-684-85556-9 p.179

• The ruthless way in which the army now conducted its search for arms and information was remarkably successful and by the end of 1797 the conspiracy in that part of Ireland was virtually broken. A not inconsiderable factor in the breaking of it was a reversion on the part of many Protestants to their old sectarian ways under the auspices of the recently founded Orange Society.Ireland: A History, Robert Kee, Abacus, First published 1982 Revised edition published 2003, 2004 and 2005, ISBN 0-349-11676-8 p.61

• In Armagh, there was a pitched battle in September 1795 between Protestant and Catholic groups. The Defenders were overwhelmed. Following this fight, a new extra-parliamentary body was founded, the Orange Society, which later changed its name to the Orange Order. The aim of the Society was to maintain what its members no longer trusted the parliament to do, and it defined its loyalty in a distinctly conditional way: ‘to support and defend the King and his heirs as long as he or they support the Protestant Ascendancy’. Many Catholics living in mainly Protestant districts were forcibly driven out, most of them finding refuge in Connacht.Ireland History of a Nation, David Ross, Geddes & Grosset, Scotland, First published 2002, Reprinted 2005 & 2006, ISBN 10: 1 84205 164 4 p.195

Now TU, even you would agree I was reserved in my edit. That I could add another couple of references is enough to suggest I have been restrained. Now would you like to have some of the quotes put in, or have I been correct in my edit --Domer48 (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you really have found three bigots. It is still not verifird that the Order is political. There are some historical inaccuracies in those quotes, and they are written in very POV language, not very good academic works if this is indicitive of what is in the rest of them! I'll do some reading after work tomorrow to get at some truth here, but you can take it as read that I'm not happy with this bile being presented as fact.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

You call Robert Kee a bigot thats rich. Do you even know who the authors are before you spew your bile about bigots BigDunc (talk) 18:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Have just done a little research on these books. One is so obscure Amazon doesn't have a new copy(and has been referenced by academics so little that google doesn't know about it), one you haven't given the full name of (the bit you left out is quite important for checking realibality - A thousand years of Irish heros), and in the other you're stretching the quote a bit. Not brilliant sources. You appear to be calling me a bigot. You will withdraw that remarkTraditional unionist (talk) 18:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I was a bit hasty about Kee, I ment two bigots. You've stretched Kee's works a little bit to suit .Traditional unionist (talk) 18:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

TU please, now there is no need for that. I have went to a little effort here for you, a simple thanks would have been enough. --Domer48 (talk) 18:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

except that there are major deficiencies in your sources and use of sources.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Terry Golway is City Editor and columnist at The New York Observer. He is also a frequent contributor to the Irish Echo, America, American Heritage, The Boston Globe, The New York Times, and other national publications. He is the author of Irish Rebel: John Devoy and America’s Fight for Ireland freedom and co-author of The Irish in America, a companion book to the award-winning PBS documentary series. Now what book is not correctly titled?--Domer48 (talk) 18:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for showing up where Mr Galloway's POV is. The Irish Echo is not exactly a neutral source, and one wouldn't expect it's writers to be either. You left off the end of the title of his book, which shows the POV of the book.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

TU, I can see were this is going, and I'm not going to get into it with you. On Golway, you ommit The New York Observer, The Boston Globe, The New York Times, American Heritage. Now I have tried to be helpful. The discussion is over. --Domer48 (talk) 18:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Alas squire; it isn't. You can't project opinion as fact.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Look, one of two things, I can pile a number of quotes onto that article which are supported by WP:V and WP:RS, in addition to the ones here, or I can walk away. Now I will walk away, because you have nothing left to offer this discussion. --Domer48 (talk) 18:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

So to surmise your ultimatum, either I drop this debate or you will swamp the article with POV that meets the rules but is opinion dressed up as fact? That's not very nice young man. Not in the spirit of any policy either.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

You only here what you want to here. What I'm saying is, that I can reference everything that I add. I could references this over and over just to prove a point, but why should I. Your blinkers are never going to be of, so it makes no difference what I do. Now, go off and get yourself a couple of books, and add as much referenced text as you wish, but just don't edit war anymore. --Domer48 (talk) 18:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

You really don't understand what you're doing wrong here do you? Two of these three authors, are Irish nationalists. We can see this from a very basic look at their histories. More to the point, what they write is written in pajoritive terms from a nationalist POV. That does not make these statements fact. It means they exists, but it does not make them fact. therefore saying that the Order always was political because these people say so is not adequate. Saying thet these people think x, is adequate.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Time to step back

Ok, as requested by the checkuser I was talking to, I have submitted a formal Check User request at RfCU. I would suggest that both sides take the next 24-48 hours off from any OI page edits (I don't want to block anyone from edit warring, and I don't want to lock out other editors from possibly improving the article), while that works, and also to try to determine whether the sources satisfy NPOV (I can't say either way to it at the moment, I need a hell of a lot more free time then what I have right now to check the sources). So let's all step back, no one has to protect pages, no one has to be blocked, and we improve the article. K? SirFozzie (talk) 19:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

How many times must I be the subject of a Requests for checkuser? What is this now, the third or fourth time. I was checked during the Famine ArbCom, the Troubles ArbCom, one by Markthomas? This is a form of intimidation, as is the accusation of edit warring. A statement with three references, is altered to suite one editors known bias. The references are verifiable and reliably sourced, and rather than put forward an alternative view, I get "Wow, you really have found three bigots," "I'm not happy with this bile being presented as fact," and "Two of these three authors, are Irish nationalists." So, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:AGF are out the window. And this dispite the fact that I said I'd walk away from the discussion. A yeh, Domer48 edit warring again. --Domer48 (talk) 19:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Domer, EVERYONE is edit warring. That's why I'm asking everyone to step back. I'm not singling you out, or anyone out. I just want the edit warring to stop. Period. SirFozzie (talk) 19:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Who is being Requests for checkusered AGAIN. TU asked for it before, and it showed I was not Dunc or Breen or Pappin. Now I have no problem with it, but an editor who deliberatly changes a referenced statement, can request one. So the advice is: If an editor changes text to push their known bias, the best thing you can do is leave it! --Domer48 (talk) 20:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I missed that (the previous request), but not only did TU request it but Dunc went along with it (now admittedly, that's not an actual reason to DO it..) Domer... Let's put it this way. I understand the depth of feelings between the two groups here (Note: the depth of feelings here, not the depth of feelings to the people who actually live the situation). I have done my best to bend over backwards for everyone who seemed to be willing to at least listen to what I had to say. There have been numerous times where I would have been justified in locking down articles, and blocking all of you. But I haven't, because I believed that just about everyone had more to contribute to the encyclopedia by working on it, rather then take away from it by constant arguments. It's beginning to look more and more like some folks are willing to take advantage of that and of me. SirFozzie (talk) 20:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I have never taken advantage of anyone. I have listened to the advice, and tried to go along with it, and all I got was shafted. Were are the admins when I’m getting messed about? Now I’m not crying about it, I even gave you the opportunity to step in and pull me up if you thought I was out of line. Told you to be a hard nosed fucker about it. And I was left swinging. I have every POV merchant on my case, and I know now, all I have to do is put one foot wrong and I’m over a barrel. That is just the way it is! The only reason I understand the policies here, is because I had everyone of them used on me, but I have yet to see them used to protect an editor who plays by the rules. The Checkuser was wrong! --Domer48 (talk) 20:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

New Zealand Section

Please do not remove referenced material from article and dont edit war. BigDunc (talk) 14:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I am removing your UNSOUCRED claim. SF have asked for this to be removed as he was an Orangeman. They have not denied this, both facts are reported by the BBC.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It was because of his "anti-Catholic speeches". BigDunc (talk) 14:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no source to back up your claim that they dispute the assertion. They don't.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

That is a second hand account and not an appropriate source.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

You put it in not me I just read it all and didn't select what I wanted from it see WP:SYNTHESIS--BigDunc (talk) 14:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Dunc this is not the first time TU has attempted this. In this discussion WP:SYNTHESIS was also used. On that occasion TU said "I was not attempting to synthesis, if i advertantly did." Maybe this is a similer situation? Maybe you should give them the benifit of the doubt again? Though I do see your point about the reference, TU uses the reference, but when you use the same reference they then say that is a second hand account and not an appropriate source? I don't understand that one myself? --Domer48 (talk) 15:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

"mostly (but not exclusively) Unionist or Protestant symbols"? Let's just have a look what's on the list shall we?

• The statue - fits the description, I guess....
• three pictures, one a present from a British Army regiment. Not really "Unionist or Protestant symbols" are they?
• a Royal British Legion certificate. Not really a "Unionist or Protestant symbol", definitely stretching it a bit.
• artwork presented to council by the 8th Infantry Brigade. As above...
• a Charles and Diana mug. Please....
• a little dragon from the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards. What sort of dragon? A cuddly fluffy one? A regimental mascot type one? Definitely stretching it a bit....
• a Royal Engineers paper weight. Definitely stretching it a bit....
• a 22nd Regiment Cheshire plate. Definitely stretching it a bit....
• Plus the Kevin Lynch dedication that's suspiciously missing from that list

Now I don't know about anyone else, but other than the statue of Massey I wouldn't look at any of them and think "Protestant symbol" or "Unionist symbol". The source says "symbols of Protestant and British culture", which I think is more apt. Royal British Legion and Charles and Diana mug most definitely say "British culture" more than "Unionist". One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 09:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I think your point ONiH is a little semantic and doesn't alter the substance of what this is about. As far as the minor alteration goes, it is however, probably right. Also, you seem to understand, unlike Dunc/Domer what the source says. Nowhere do SF refute the claim that they are removing a statue of a son of the town simplky because he was an orangeman. I would however dispute the way it is protrayed here. I haven't read the sources today, but memory tells me that the BBC report this as fact, and the subsequent utterings from the provos in no way refutes the claim, and to my reading actually backs it up.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

My reading of the sources you provided are that it was not exclusively because he was an orangeman but also his anti catholic speeches. And none of the sources here give any indication of what the Provos think on this matter. They as far as I am aware did not even comment on the removal of the statue. BigDunc (talk) 14:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

If you're going to be silly then you should stay quiet. On your first point, that is reported to have come from an outside second hand source, the BBC report, from memory, states as fact that the provos objected to his membership of the Order, with no mention of anti-catholicism. Yet you, without a source, from the bowels of your own POV, chose to add to the article that SF deny this. Why?Traditional unionist (talk) 15:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

If your not going to remain civil there is not much point carrying on. In all my discourse with you I treat you with respect and do not personally attack you no matter how much I disagree with what you say.BigDunc (talk) 15:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

TU as far as this discussion is concerned, all I have said was, that you should be given the benifit of the doubt on thesynthesis of information, and that I can not understand how you can object to a reference that you yourself introduced. Now you are raising the provos in the discussion, dispite the fact that they are not mentioned at all? Please stick to the point at hand, and try remaine civil. --Domer48 (talk) 15:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"According to Sinn Fein he was first and foremost an Orangeman and he made anti-Catholic speeches." and that "There was an inventory of 10 items, one of them a republican dedication to hunger striker Kevin Lynch, which may cause offence to the republican side of the community if it was removed," and also "His track-record was substantially representative of just one side of the community, you cannot cherry-pick neutrality - it's either neutral or not." And the only second hand source I can find in YOUR refs is from Edwin Stevenson a UUP member hardly the most impartial person. Also I cant find any refs to say what the IRA say on this subject BigDunc (talk) 15:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm struck by two things with the references provided above. The Belfast Newsletter dose not mention the Kevin Lynch dedication which is also to be removed. In addition, one sources says the "The statue" is a tourist attraction, and another says they get asked a lot who was he? As Dunc has also mentioned above the IRA are not mentioned as having an opinion on the subject. --Domer48 (talk) 16:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Simply because someone has failed to deny a claim someone else has made about them does not mean it can be stated as fact. If that was the case, I would draw your attention to this. Brian Mulroney, Bob Hope, George Bush, George Bush Jr, Ted Heath, the Rothschild family, Boxcar Willie, the Queen of England, the Queen Mother, Prince Philip, Kris Kristofferson, Al Gore and others were accused of being reptilian, child-sacrificing paedophiles, yet I don't see them denying it?! One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

That is quite correct - my point however is that it has been reported as fact by the BBC, which is at the top of the reliability scale! The fact that a DUP MLA says they refute it doesn't mean they do.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions for improving this article

Now before you even think about replying, just pretend the person that said this is someone you've never dealt with before, and you know nothing about them:

• New Zealand section - get rid of the coatrack. The statue issue isn't directly related to the New Zealand section, and it certainly isn't directly related to the Orange Institution. If we're going to include new stories every time there's a passing connection, this article is going to get very large. Look at the section right now, how much of it is about New Zealand?
• Republic of Ireland section - similarly, the coatrack about David Armstrong can go. Yes I'm well aware I expanded that, but only because it was difficult to explain the full situation in the existing sentence. It's enough to include that someone spoke out against it, without going into too much detail.
• Countries sections in general - either expand the smaller ones (Wales, New Zealand after possible removal of coatrack, Ghana, USA to an extent) or merge them into one "Other countries" section.
• External links - lose some of the links to individual lodges. Let's face it, there's plenty of lodges who'll have websites so unless there's some particular reason why a particular lodge should be linked to then don't. Link to some of the major ones possibly.
• Orange Flag section - merge it into another section if possible. Right now it's just ugly with one sentence that mostly describes what the flag looks like, when people can see the flag right next to the description.
• England section - merge the two sub-sections into it.
• Drumcree - needs to be in the article. I would suggest any attempt to add it is done in the form of a sandbox and discussed before adding it, as we all know what will happen otherwise.

There's plenty more needs to be done, but that's more than enough to be going on with. So, do you want to argue about one or two sentences, or do you want to actually create a decent article? Over to you..... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I have no objection to any of that.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure there must be more that can go in the New Zealand section surely? Right now it just starts with Massey being a member. When did they start in New Zealand etc etc? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 17:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I come from a long line of Orangemen, but haven't joined myself. The Orange is not my forte at all in terms of history!Traditional unionist (talk) 19:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Google is your friend. Looks like we could do with a few other countries being mentioned too..... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

As presumably the only NZer involved here, I'll take over the New Zealand section. I know there's an article on the Order in NZ somewhere, so I'll dig that out and reduce it to a paragraph or so. I don't think I'll be able to provide a lot of info on the NZ Order in the 20th century, since as far as I'm aware no one has researched that. I have newspaper reports of them parading in 1920 and I know that at some point between then and now they stopped, and are pretty much invisible, but that's about it. I'm not even sure if they even still exist in any meaningful form.

I have to agree with the people who are calling for the 'coatrack' to be removed, since it has little to do with New Zealand. It would be more appropriate on the Limavady or William Massey pages (or both), but I think that unless they actually remove the statue the issue is only temporarily notable - if they decide to keep it, will anyone actually care in a year's time?

For the record, Massey is not known in this country as anti-Catholic. I think he might have capitalised on some sectarianism in the 1920s, but during WWI he was in coalition with a party led by an Irish Catholic (Joseph Ward). In NZ he is known primarily for crushing a wharf workers' strike. --Helenalex (talk) 09:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Other suggestions:

• Move the 'military contributions' section to the History of the Orange Institution page, except for the war memorials subsection, which should go into the new 'historiography' section of this page.
• Reorganise or just remove altogether the 'controversy' section. Practically this entire page could go under the heading of 'controversy' and what's in there now is mostly just a jumble of random stuff. Most of it would be more appropriate under parades or history.
• There needs to be something on the women's order. I would put this in myself, but I haven't been able to find out what it's officially called, since they don't have much of an internet presence and no one has researched them in detail, as far as I can tell. I think someone who is currently in Northern Ireland needs to ring up and ask.
• I agree with ONiH about the flag, but I'm damned if I know where it should go instead.

Everyone's being so constructive... This isn't quite up there with the Paisley/McGuiness lovefest in terms of unlikeliness, but it makes a nice change. Let's try and keep it up. :) --Helenalex (talk) 09:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Ladies Orange Benevolent Association by any chance? I moved the flag. I suggest any removal of any criticism is discussed here. Some of might need to go, but it's a contentious part so.... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 07:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

That seems to be the name in Canada, the very few references to it in Ireland seem to refer to a charity organisation rather than the women's order as such. You could still be right, but I think we need something a bit more concrete. I like what you've done with the flag, and I've been thinking for a while that wasn't the best place for the Scottish pic.

I wasn't planning on deleting anything in the controversy section, just moving it to a more appropriate place. The parades stuff can go into the parades section, the Craigavon/de Valera stuff can go into history, the last paragraph into the appropriate parts of 'throughout the world', and the first sentence is basically a repitition of what's in the article's opening paragraph. Any objections? --Helenalex (talk) 23:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

12th as a public holiday

I see there is a reference for this, but I'm almost certain it is wrong. The 12th is a de facto public holiday, but it isn't actually. Most employers offer staff either St Patricks day or the 12th off as a publ;ic holiday, but I don't think either are. St Patricks day might be, but like I say, am almost certain the 12th isn't. I'll check it out.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Source, source, source, source etc etc. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

George Galloway

Has anyone suggestions as to do with comments by Galloway in the England section as TU says it is not certain that he was refering to the OO in England if anything I would assume he was talking about the OO in Scotland as he was refering to Adam Ingram who was a member of a lodge in Glasgow. BigDunc (talk) 15:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Was it me? I don't remember saying anything about this.Traditional unionist (talk) 15:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it wasn't I seen clarify in the edit summary beside your name so assumed (which in my experience is always a bad move) but I feel doesn't belong in that section any thoughts. BigDunc (talk) 15:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I added the hidden comment about it. As I wrote, it could probably do with moving somewhere if anyone has any ideas? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I suppose at the very least it should be removed from the England and possibly inserted in the Scotland section. BigDunc (talk) 15:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes it is about Adam "Kick The Pope" Ingram, see here. And of course "Kick George Galloway" is relevant as well, see here. I think it definitely belongs in the article somewhere, especially as a judge has ruled that many of the observations made about the OO are "fair comment". One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 16:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Recent addition to the lead

"however some demoninations of Protestants are also ineligible for membership" is sourced by this. Am I missing something, as I don't see anything that says "some demoninations of Protestants are also ineligible for membership" on the page? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 16:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't see it either. I vaguely recall reading that Unitarians aren't eligible because they don't believe in the Trinity, but whether that's actually a requirement I don't know. As far as I can see there's nothing about the trinity or non-eligible Protestants anywhere in that source. --Helenalex (talk) 09:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

(having just read TU's most recent edit) Ah, I thought it was the Unitarians. However, showing that they're not eligible to join the Royal Black doesn't mean that they're not eligible for the Orange Institution. I've returned my copy of Edwards to the library so I can't comment on the other source. --Helenalex (talk) 09:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Edit reverted

This one to be precise. According to this Rossnowlagh is the only parade to be held in the Republic. If there's a source saying otherwise please cite it and amend the text accordingly. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

there is certainly a Lodge in Dublin, I'd say there is a source for this from the time the citezry of Dublin were so offended by the Orange they tore up their own city.Traditional unionist (talk) 11:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

offended by the Orange, they tore up their own city? When was this? --Domer48 (talk) 13:03, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Everything I've read on the subject says the Rossnowlagh parade is the only one in the Republic, but I suppose there could be a few little ones that aren't widely known. We would need evidence though. In terms of lodges, this source says there are lodges in 9 counties of the Republic, so I will amend the section accordingly. --Helenalex (talk) 21:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge from James Sloan (Orangeman) and Daniel Winter

I have proposed merging James Sloan (Orangeman) into this article. If nothing is known about him other than the bare fact that he founded the Orange institution, then per WP:BIO1E there is no need for a separate article. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

If there's no other information, seems reasonable. I recently performed a similar merger on Stan Yapp and Gordon Morgan (note, none of the external links verifiably refer to the same person), to West Midlands County Council. One sentence stubs are a bit worthless if the same information is in (or can be placed in) the target article. Aren't there a couple of other founder members to merge too? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 16:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Added Daniel Winter, the other one seems ok as it is. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 16:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right, the Daniel Winter article looks mergeworthy too: another factoid masquerading as an article. I agree, though, that James Wilson (Orangeman) is a real article and should not be merged. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Historically Dan Winter deserves an article more than the other two. I'd say leave the other two and merge (de facto delete) sloan. Someone will come along and make articles out of them, not doing any harm.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Substub "articles" such as this do indeed do harm, because they misleadingly promise the reader that by following the link they will learn more about the topic ... and then, having waited for the page to load, all they find is a factoid no bigger than in the text surrounding the link they followed.

The proposal is merge Winter, not delete; if someone has the sources to write a proper article, they can, but waiting-for-Godot is no reason to keep this one-liner in the meantime. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Navigation template

Would it be possible for someone to produce a navigation template for this article and its related content? --Jza84 |  Talk  16:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Is that necessary? I mean, what would go in it?Traditional unionist (talk) 16:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I invisaged something that organises various lodges, key figures, localities, events, customs, affiliations and so on. Not strictly necessary (like all such templates), but I though it would help with the navigation to and from articles in this series. --Jza84 |  Talk  16:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Deleted nonsense

I just removed this from the article, but I thought its inventiveness (particularly the bit about the tuba) deserved preservation on the talk page. --Helenalex (talk) 04:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

"The biggest highlight is said to be The Ian Paisley Wife March, in which leader of the Free Presbyterian Church Ian Paisley rides a Llama from the beginning of the parade to the finish whilst playing a Tuba. This Symbolizes the love, trust and compassion between dedicated Orange men to their wives. Orange men also refer to wives as the following; 'sisters, mothers and daughters.' Another popular highlight of the Orange parade is The great Panda Hunt in which Ian Paisley must hunt 60 Panda bears that have been strapped to skateboards and sent down a steep hill. On July 12th, 2006, 58 Loyalists were accidentally killed by Ian Paisley who mistook them for the Panda bears. Due to Ian Paisley's failing eyesight and hearing he was unable to tell the difference. Only after the Loyalists had been shot, strung from a tree and skinned (some alive) did Ian Paisley realize what he had done. The Great Panda Hunt was therefore banned from the parade so such an incident would never occur again. The Panda's are still believed to be somewhere in Belfast, 1 was caught and interrogated by the British army for 3 days but no information was given from the Panda to the British army as to the whereabouts of the other Panda Bear's."

I'm guessing it's found its way to uncyclopedia, if it didn't come from there in the first place. Gamerunknown (talk) 10:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Freemasonry

I have once again removed the additions that are either unsourced, unreliably sourced, and/or a complete misrepresentation of what a source says. O Fenian (talk) 23:45, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Reference to the Ku Klux Klan in the United States

Is the comment made by Tim Pat Coogan in his book about the Easter Rising really relevant? Having not read the book I can't say whether this is an observation backed up by evidence or a throw away comment. Given that, as un-registered user 74.215.61.251 points out, there are huge differences between the Order and the Ku Klux Klan. The Klan began as a kind of veterans association for Confederate ex-servicemen and was overwhelmingly concentrated in the "old south" of the United States. Latterly the distribution involved the mid-west, most famously Indiana. What little Orange Order there was in the 19th century United States was concentrated in the extreme north east of the country, notably around New York. This leads me to suspect that Coogan and the other reference, Bell, may be guilty of a bit of lazy characterisation and have perhaps not done the research necessary to support such claims.

Rather than clutter up that section with a whole load of qualifications for these assertions, I’ve just deleted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Furious Andrew (talk • contribs) 20:53, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

The unsourced ramblings of an anonymous editor are of no relevance, if you have sources rebutting Coogan please provide them. O Fenian (talk) 21:06, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Apologies but surely the balance of responsibility is on the person who made to Coogan reference to prove it is of relevance to the article rather than me to prove it isn't. In fact I would further argue that the whole USA section is in need of revision. There is no information about the Order in the United States, just a reference to a major disturbance at a parade and the above reference. It's interesting but without any contextualizing information about the Order in the United States I don't think they are worth having in the article. comment added by Furious Andrew (talk • contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 22:58, 11 July 2010 (UTC).

How is Orangeism not relevant to this article? Looking on Google Books I see frequent comparisons between the Order, the Know Nothings and the Klan from a variety of sources. Of specific interest is The orange and the black: documents in the history of the Orange Order, Ontario, and the West, 1890-1940 by Robert S. Pennefather (page 42), who writes "It is of interest to note that the connection made between the Orange Order and the Ku Klux Klan has some validity. A letter published by The Sentinel in July of 1 929 noted accord with the view that the nucleus of the Klan was formed by members of the Protestant fraternal associations in Canada. Support for the Klan and a Canadian Klan appeared spasmodically in The Orange Sentinel". That is not an isolated source either, there are many others that compare and connect the organisations. In addition the 19th century claim is irrelevant, since they may be talking about the second Klan. O Fenian (talk) 23:12, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

In that case it should be from those sources that references should be drawn. Is there anything in it to suggest that the author in question has any detailed knowledge of any of the organisations or that he had conducted any research regarding that particular comment? What is suggested in the paragraph is that there is a causal link between the existence of the Orange Order and the establishment of the other two organisations. Given, amongst other things, its numerical insignificance in the United States I do not believe the Order could have had any bearing on the other organisations coming into existence.Furious Andrew (talk —Preceding undated comment added 19:04, 14 July 2010 (UTC).

I agree that it doesn't seem entirely relevant, in fact it reads more like Republican propaganda, sorry if I'm mistaken Tim Pat Coogan or O Fenian. Could someone perhaps quote the passage? If the book did indeed make this point then okay (if its in a book, its got to be true!) but there are some fundamental differences between the OO and KKK that need to be clarified somewhat. Firstly the Orange Order are not racist, the OO have many non-white members in the UK, Canada and Africa. I assume the comparison here is their alleged religious intolerance. This could equally be applied to the ancient order of hibernians, or any other republican group who are opposed the Queen (the supreme governer of the Church of the church of england) Secondly the Ku Klux Klan are a secret organisation, the OO are anything but! Lastly there is the aspect of violence. While historically the OO have been involved in violent affairs, and quite possibly linked to paramilitaries, the OO themselves have never been proscribed as an illegal or terrorist group. The KKK on the other hand are very much a nationalist terrorist organisation, having bombed baptist (protestant) churches and schoolbuses and held public lynchings. Hachimanchu (talk) 22:55, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. The statement in the article, "Orangeism also manifested itself in movements such as the Know Nothings and the Ku Klux Klan..." implies that there is a direct causal connection, with the Orange Institution being the seed of the KN and the KKK. The Orange Institution was never much of a factor in the United States, and was only a presence in northeastern coastal cities like Philadelphia or New York. The KKK was a home-grown organization that developed a thousand miles away in the interior South. I doubt very much if the original Klan organizers had ever even heard of Orangeism. I think historically many Orangemen did align with the Know Nothings, but there was no causal link. I will see if I can find Coogan's "Easter Rising" and see what it says. The book may have been misinterpreted by whatever editor added this paragraph. Eastcote (talk) 12:54, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

After reading some of the earlier comments, I have to ask what relevance a bunch of Canadian Klansmen have to the Orange Order in the United States? Eastcote (talk) 00:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I look forward to the reading the sources which would challange Coogan, and support some of the opinions above. Any how I'll dig out some additional sources to support Coogan over the next couple of days. --Domer48_'fenian' 15:16, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm not as gleeful as you about this topic. I'm only interested in accuracy, and I don't give a damn about Irish republicanism vs. unionism, or green vs. orange. The Orange Istitution was basically a non-starter here in the USA. Ask the average person on the street what the Orange Institution is, and they'll likely guess it has something to do with Florida citrus growers. Eastcote (talk) 15:24, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Huh?--Domer48_'fenian' 18:30, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what "Huh?" means. Which part of "The Orange Institution is basically unknown in the USA" didn't you get? I'm not looking for things to support one side or the other of anything. I'm interested in an accurate article. Eastcote (talk) 20:43, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I added some referenced info concerning the history of the Orange Order in the USA. I let stand the portion from Coogan, as I have not read the book. Still think any causal relationship between the Orange Order and the KKK is dubious, as I have not read that anywhere (but here). I'll wait and see what the passage from Coogan actually says. Eastcote (talk) 23:20, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing iffy about any connection. At the time in question the KKK were an anti-Catholic fraternal Protestant organisation. The Orange Order are an anti-Catholic fraternal Protestant organisation. There is ample evidence of crossover. You have yet to give a valid reason for removal. O Fenian (talk) 23:00, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

You were to fast on the hot button and my comments here crossed while you were adding yours.... I've had a chance to read what Coogan had to say about the KKK in 1916: The Easter Rising. Coogan states: " served both as a militia and a bonding organization for militant Protestantism, spreading to England in 1807 where the Tories, especially around Liverpool, used the movement against the Liberals. Later it would develop in America manifesting itself in such movements as the Know Nothings and the Ku Klux Klan. The Order also proved useful to employers as a device for keeping Protestant and Catholic workers from uniting for better wages and conditions." There is nothing further concerning the Order in the USA, whether relative to the KKK or not. Coogan cites no sources for his claim, and other scholarship notes the "feeble" presence of the Order in the USA (see McRaild, Millar, etc.). No source on the Klan I've found mentions the Orange Order having anything to do with the Klan's foundation at all. As for the Know Nothings, I have found sources which indicate Orangemen did join them and were active participants in the mid-1800s. I have deleted the Coogan citation, which appears to be an anomoly as far as scholarship on the KKK is concerned, but I will add other sourced material that discusses the role of Orangemen in the Know Nothings. Eastcote (talk) 23:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Who said anything about foundation? The point Coogan makes is that Orangeism manifested itself within the KKK. anti-Catholic fraternal Protestant organisation. The Orange Order are an anti-Catholic fraternal Protestant organisation, it is not a giant leap. O Fenian (talk) 23:17, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Hooded Americanism: the history of the Ku Klux Klan by David Mark Chalmers (ISBN 978-0822307723) deals with Klan/Orange Order links/membership crossover, similarly Encyclopedia of religion in the South by Hill et al (ISBN 978-0865547582). Naturally I should point out we are dealing with the second Klan, not the first. All that said, it might be a better idea to deal with the more documented links in Canada in more detail, and briefly mention the USA alongside that. O Fenian (talk) 23:39, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The implication of Coogan's "later it would develop in America manifesting itself in such movements as the...KKK", is that it was a causitive factor of the (first) Klan. A causal connection is very "iffy". I have been looking the past several days and have found nothing supporting a connection between the Order and the KKK. True, both are anti-Catholic Protestant organizations. But that implies nothing causal. The two developed independently in different parts of the world. Unlike the Order, the KKK is primarily a White Supremacist organization, which grew out of Reconstruction after the Civil War. It's primary aim at formation was to counter the effects of black enfranchisement, and of white disenfranchisement. Anti-Catholicism was secondary. The Orange Order during this period was active in New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and other parts of northeastern states (the South's recent enemy), and even there participation was light. Pulaski, Tennessee, where the Klan was born was far away from these places. Orangeism, what little of it there was, was a Northern thing. The Klan was a Southern institution. During the 1920s the (second) Klan had active "outreach" programs that reached as far as Czechoslovakia, and they probably had connections with the Orange Order at that time, though I have found no references to support it. If you are speaking here of this (second) Klan outreach and Chalmers supports it, then a para along the line of "connections between the KKK and Orange Order" would make sense here, rather than Coogan's vague sentence that is apparently open to the different interpretations you and I (and the others above) have read into it. Chalmers would perhaps avoid the confusion. Eastcote (talk) 23:56, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with Eastcote. The roots of the Orange Lodge and the KKK are quite different. Just for starters, OL was many religious whereas KKK was mainly racial. That both had anti-Catholic streaks (primary for the former, secondary for the latter), does not prove a causal link. Speculation of such is all I've seen here, more proof and balance would be needed to claim this in the article. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:53, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I have seen many sources that emphasise the second Klan was mainly anti-Catholic, particularly in areas other than the South. I see my suggestion about Canada has been ignored. The misinterpretations of editors are genrally that the Orange Order cannot be linked because they are not racist, which ignores what is actually said anyway. O Fenian (talk) 01:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The section under discussion refers to the USA, and not to Canada. Your sources concerning Canada would certainly be appropriate for the Canada section. I would also be curious whether Chalmers information relates to the American KKK relationship with the Irish Orange Order, or with Orange Lodges in the USA. Orange presence is very scant in the USA, as the references I've provided indicate. Most people here have no idea what the Orange Order is. If Chalmers discusses Klan "outreach" to the Orange Order overseas, that could possibly be better placed in the main (i.e. Irish) section of the article. Eastcote (talk) 01:14, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

So, you are planning to keep ignoring what I said then? O Fenian (talk) 01:15, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you think I'm ignoring, but I'm guessing it's the references to Canada. I didn't ignore it. See above where I said "Your sources concerning Canada would certainly be appropriate for the Canada section." The topic here is the Orange Order in the USA. Canada is off-topic. Relevant sources discussing the Orange Order in the USA are on topic. The Coogan reference to the Orange Order and the KKK is ambiguous. If Chalmers talks about Orange Lodges in the USA, then what he has to say is certainly on topic and possibly better than the Coogan sentence. Why so touchy? Eastcote (talk) 02:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Just an observation here: there seem to be a lot of partisans contributing their points of view to this talk page and editing the article from that point of view. Handles such as FearÉIREANN, Setanta, Domer48'fenian', Traditional Unionist, and O Fenian, betray obvious partisanship. I don't hold to one side or the other. I'm an American, and what you fellers get up to on your side of the ocean in this day and age doesn't really concern me. Your (O Fenian's) view of the Orange Order and mine are probably very close, based on what I know of them. I have expanded on the article only in that section pertaining to the activities of the Orange Order in the United States. I would like to see a relatively accurate USA section, not based on speculation, or on ambiguous texts. There was a tag on the USA section that said it needed expansion, so I have attempted to expand it and put things in better context. We can have a better USA section if we approach it cooperatively, rather than combatively. Eastcote (talk) 03:24, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Since when do we require a source that is both reliable and verifiable must cite sources for their work? At no time dose Coogan suggest the "Orange Order having anything to do with the Klan's foundation." This is the construct of an Editor. Likewise saying that Coogan "implies that there is a direct causal connection" is based on nothing more than an Editors opinion. Claiming then that "A causal connection is very "iffy" as if it is now accepted by Editors that Coogan is making such a claim is no way to advance a discussion. This is about as useful as the personal observations offered on Editors. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:23, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The point about Coogan is that his statement is very vague. What does he mean by "manifested" itself? OFenian and I both take it to mean two different things. Coogan talks about two movements, the KKK and the Know-Nothings. The Know-Nothings were from the mid-1800s, and Coogan is talking about events leding up to 1916. In that context it would appear he is also talking about the KKK during the same period, which would mean the formation era of the first Klan. The second Klan's outreach was in the 1920s. But Coogan doesn't specify anything and he gives no examples, so use of Coogan as a source doesn't really add anything to the article. How did the OO manifest itself? What is the connection between the KKK and the OO? Coogan doesn't say anything about that. It's just a tossed out comment that leaves us guessing. Since Coogan is very vague, perhaps the work by Chalmers has more detail and would be more appropriate. Eastcote (talk) 20:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

On Google Books there is frequent comparisons between the Order, the Know Nothings and the Klan from a wide variety of sources. You are interpreting and offering an analysis of the source, when what you should be doing is providing a source which challenges Coogan. Simply put, why not add additional sources, and least we forget, the sentence is attributed to Coogan. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

We are not talking about "comparisons" between the OO and KKK here. We are talking about an actual relationship between the KKK and the OO. I'm not analyzing anything: Coogan offers nothing but a vague sentence that is open to more than one interpretation. I have personally read no sources that talk about an actual relationship, so I have no sources to add, although as I said above, there was probably contact over the years. OFenian stated he does have a source, Chalmers, which seems to be a much better source than Coogan's ambiguous statement. There is no burden of proof on me to challenge Coogan for at least two reasons. First, because it's impossible to prove a negative -- books on the formation of the KKK do not state "the Orange Order had nothing to do with the foundation of the KKK" any more than they say "the Red Cross had nothing to do with the founding of the KKK". If the OO had nothing to do with it, they just plain wouldn't be talked about. The second reason is that I think there probably was a relationship at some point in the Klan's history, most likely in the 1920s or later. OFenian's source seems to indicate this is so. Having said that, Chalmers seems to be a better, and unambiguous, source. I haven't read Chalmers, OFenian has. Let Chalmers' more detailed information replace Coogan's one line toss-out. Eastcote (talk) 23:17, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

" served both as a militia and a bonding organization for militant Protestantism, spreading to England in 1807 where the Tories, especially around Liverpool, used the movement against the Liberals. Later it would develop in America manifesting itself in such movements as the Know Nothings and the Ku Klux Klan..." There is nothing vague about this at all. Did the KKK served both as a militia and a bonding organization for militant Protestantism? A simple yes or no. --Domer48_'fenian' 23:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

That's not even the question here, and you know it. Similarity in organizations does not mean that one caused or even greatly influenced the other. Both apples and tomatoes are red, but that doesn't mean one grew from the other. The Webster definition of manifest is "to make evident or certain by showing or displaying". The question is "In the USA did the Orange order show up and make itself evident in the KKK?" The answer is "No!" The (second) KKK had links with multiple organizations around the world in the 20th century. If anything, Nazism made itself "manifest" in the later Klan. Often both Klan and Nazi symbolism are used side by side these days. But the Orange Order is not "evident" anywhere in this country, as I've stated before. Most Americans have no clue what the Orange Order is, but they sure know what the KKK is. Eastcote (talk) 00:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Domer48, while your recent additions to the article are interesting, they are under the subheading of "Orange Order in the United States". Your additions say nothing about the Orange Order in the United States. They talk about the KKK in the United States, and how it is similar to the Orange Order in Ireland, but nothing enlightens the reader about the Order in the USA. The content would probably be better in a separate subheading called something like "Parallels with Other Organizations". I'm sure parallels could also be drawn with organizations such as the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging in South Africa. Eastcote (talk) 14:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

So the views of a former US President and US Congressman on the the OO and the parallels they draw should not be in the section titled USA? Interesting? So while you say that "Most Americans have no clue what the Orange Order is" leaders of public opinion in the US do. --Domer48_'fenian' 15:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

So offering a suggestion, you ignore the discussion and make a silly new section which deals only with the US. The section should and will be replaced. --Domer48_'fenian' 15:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Since the section only deals with the US it makes sense that it should be in the US section. --Domer48_'fenian' 15:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The comments on the KKK/Orange Order by American political leaders have absolutely nothing to do with the "Orange Order in the USA", which is what that section is about, and the comments don't belong in that section. They are referring to KKK similarity with the Orange Order in Northern Ireland. Commentary by any world leader about the Orange Order in Ulster/UK, or parallels of the Ulster Order with other organizations around the world make more sense in a separate section. Eastcote (talk) 15:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, I can buy the latest change. A subsection under USA that talks about American references to the Order. And yes, some Americans are aware of the Orange Order's existence in Ireland, but there is really no visibility of the order here in the USA itself. Believe it or not. Fraternal groups such as the Masons, Elks, Eagles, Shriners, Knights of Columbus are are common. Chapters/lodges of other organizations were established here over the years, but are not well known by the general public, such as the Orange Order, the Oddfellows, the Hibernians, B'nai B'rith, etc. Some are better known in certain regions. The USA is a big place. The Hibernians and B'nai B'rith are probably better known than the Orange Order. Eastcote (talk) 15:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Just as a minor contribution to this debate, I notice that one of the sources quoted in the new sub-section talks of the Klan organising processions. I'm aware of the famous photograph of the very large Klan procession in Washington D.C. in the late 1920s as the sun was beginning to set on the movement, but was it the convention for the Klan to stage processions regularly? I was just thinking one of the divergances between the Klan and the Order is that in the Orange Order everyone is supposed to know you are a member, it is a very public affiliation with regular public displays of membership at parades, my impression is that even when the Klan could claim millions of members it was still something you would keep to yourself, hence the wearing of a capirote to hide ones face. Furious Andrew (talk)

The "Klan" isn't really a monolithic sort of thing, with a single organization and a single way of doing things. There are many small groups that call themselves "Klan" that aren't all necessarily connected, with different viewpoints and different ways of doing things. But generally, there are no annual or periodic processions. If there's some big issue going on, e.g., Confederate Flag debate , etc., there might be a Klan presence in the form a few guys in white robes holding protest signs, or a parade of them down Main Street to the town courthouse. That's usually how you see them in the news. The standard "Hollywood" Klan rally is hundreds of robed Klansmen around a burning cross, looking for a 'coon or a Jew to mess with. But that's Hollywood. There was a "big" Klan rally at the Capital Building in my state a few years ago. About twenty Klansmen showed up, and about two thousand anti-Klan demonstrators. But you are correct. There are no Klan buildings or other public presence of this "secret" organization. The OO in Ulster is much more visible than the KKK in the USA. Eastcote (talk) 22:42, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I still don't see the need for the KKK comparisons, but since some people seem so desperate to include them can we clarify the fact that these are at best tenous comparisons made by a few individuals, and not a matter of historical 'links' or shared history. Incidentally some of the comparisons made could also be applied to Republican groups, who also march in areas they are not welcome, also hold dubious religious and political views (eg the 'Ancient' Order of Hibernians). Here are some fundamental ways in which the two groups differ: 1. The Orange Order, as previously mentioned, are not a secretive group. In fact their presence is controversial largely BECAUSE of the attention they draw to themselves in their very public processions. Incidentally, the nationalists, from the historic Whiteboys to the modern IRA in its many guises, are a secret group who use terror for political ends. 2. The Orange Order, in the last two hundred years at least, are a non-violent group. Where there have been violent skirmishes it is usually in self-defence as they come under attack from Nationalists. Incidentally the IRA, much like the KKK, have been outlawed as a terrorist group, and have been linked to (and admitted to) many acts of violence and terror, both favoring the use of bombs targetting civilians 3. The Orange Order, unlike the KKK, have never held any racist ideology. They hold strong religious views about the Catholic Church (as opposed to catholics in general) but not about nationality or race. In contrast, the Nationalist movement regards 'The Brits' (ie "get 'The Brits' out now") as racially distinct from the Irish. As an example of this, there have been black members of the orange order and the bands who march with them for years, in Northern Ireland, the British Mainland and in Africa and America. On a wider scale, there have been black members of the UDA, and even in the 1700's a black man was among a mob who evicted catholics from their homes in the Shankill, although he was later imprisoned. And quite apart from being innocent victims of Protestant aggression, Irish Catholics were almost solely responsible for the New York Draft riots, where they ultimately hung a small black girl in her orphanage. Hachimanchu (talk) 05:23, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

And there the comparisons end entirely. Conversely, the similarities between the IRA and KKK continue: 1. Both were formed after civil war, as a resistance movement to a 'foreign power'. 2. Both were formed around 1916 3. Both are organisations dedicated to the removal of 'foreign' civilians from what they perceive to be 'their country' 4. Both supported the Nazis during World War 2 5. Both have very strongly anti-jewish rhetoric 6. Both have links to the Aryan Brotherhood 7. Many ex-IRA members are now members of Parliament with Sinn Fein, there is at least one Republican politician who is a former KKK member. 8. Both are known to use propaganda and outright lies to incite violence and hatred. Hachimanchu (talk) 05:23, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

As above, the comparison with the KKK is completely bizarre, and I presume it has just been added by Nationalists to discredit the Orange Order. As the comment above me shows nicely, one could just as easily (and unfairly) state that the KKK and the IRA are similar. You could basically compare ANY organisation with the KKK if you made your links tenuous enough (as they certainly are in this case). Surely this section should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.184.88 (talk) 05:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Just try it and see the stonewalling that results. Eastcote (talk) 14:48, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

My comments explaining why I believe this section to be laughably unnecessary appear to have been deleted. Here is them copied from an earlier revision of this talk page, with my comments on why all of the sections, except the part by Tim Pat Coogan (which could be merged with the section on America) should be deleted:

On the right of Orangemen to march in quasi-military fashion through areas, regardless of the views of the residents, Orangemen often cite the example of the Klan and the American Nazi Party. In the Orders petition to the Northern Ireland Parades Commission in June 2002, on the Orders right to march, they cited American case law which had upheld the right to public demonstrations by both the Klan and the American Nazi Party. "Often cite"? Completely vague. Furthermore, citing a law which was once used for the Ku Klux Klan doesn't mean the OO has similarities to the KKK; that's just a basic logic fail.

In Ireland Civil Rights activists often dismissed Loyalist paramilitaries as the Irish version of the Ku Klux Klan. "Often?" Source?

“ We viewed the as similar to the KKK - so bare-faced and confident enough in the bigoted status quo that they wore bowler hats and sashes rather than white robes and pointed hoods. ” Yes, a certain group of people viewed the Order as similar to the KKK. Hardly an unbiased group of people. Such statements could be made on any Misplaced Pages page to justify any view. As the example I gave previously, certain Loyalists today incorrectly view Sinn Fein as terrorists; I certainly wouldn't support editing the Sinn Fein article to include such a thing, as such minority opinions can be used to prove or disprove any assertion one wishes to make.

Brian Dooley says it would be 'grossly inaccurate' to suggest that the Orange Order 'mirrored' the KKK, they did he notes share obvious similarities, not least their hostility to Catholicism. Both organisations paraded in bizarre costumes, with the Klan in their white hoods and sheets and the Orangemen in their bowler hats and sashes, with leaders of the Klan going by titles such as Grand Goblin or Imperial Wizard and the Order having less exotic titles as Worshipful Master. Dooley, citing Wyn Craig's history of the Klan notes that during the 1920s the Klan targeted Catholic Churches to fill an 'emotional need for a concrete, foreign-based enemy...the Pope', with these attacks providing a unifying force in support for the Klan among Protestant Churches. Again, I do not see how any intelligent person could take this seriously; you can make anything similar to anything else using such weak arguments. The KKK are a society of humans in America, the US Democrats are a society of humans in America - both of those are sourced facts, should we make a comparison to the KKK on the US Democrat Misplaced Pages page?

US Congressman Donald Payne, who according to John McGarry is one of the most influential black politicians in Congress said in an article in the Sunday Times that 'there are many parallels between Catholics in and the situation the black community faced in the United States.' Payne would be present in July 2000, to observe the Orange Orders attempts to march through a nationalist area. According to McGarry, President Bill Clinton refused a request by British Government Leader Tony Blair to put pressure on Irish Republicans to make concessions on police reform because he considered bowing to Unionist demands would be like 'leaving Alabama and Georgia under all-white cops.' This has absolutely nothing to do with the KKK whatsoever, and is completely irrelevant.

With regards to the assertion that the OO was in some way related to the formation of the Klan, there is actually some evidence against this. It has been suggested that the inspiration for the Klan was based on Sir Walter Scott's novels, and of pseudo-celtic (Scottish Highland) ceremonies such as cross burning. Certainly many of the settlers in the American south were of Scottish Highland Jacbite origin, who fled after Culloden or the Highland clearances. This is even evident in the 'Rebel flag', based on the Scottish saltire, and confederate songs which were often inspired by traditonal gaelic ballads. Lets not forget either there was a large Irish Catholic contingent who fought for the confederates. And yes the highland clans were largely protestant, but they should not be confused with the Ulster Scots, although some did originate from the highlands and even spoke gaelic. The Highland clans mainly fought for the jacobites, and therefore against the ulster scots at the boyne for example, and with irish catholics at culloden. The anti-catholicism evident in the second klan may have more to do with the Scottish reformation, or I somewhat suspect the large hispanic population in the south and the recent wars with Mexico. The origins of the klan are cloaked in mystery, but I refer you to this article which cites the nazarenos http://en.wikipedia.org/Ku_Klux_Klan_regalia_and_insignia (groups of Catholics who evicted protestants, jews and muslims from Spain during the Spanish Inquisition). The name 'Ku Klux Klan' it has been suggested was related to the Greek word 'Cyclos' Incidentally the Klan's second highest rank, the Grand wizard, is cloaked in green, which is a color of Irish Republicanism rarely if ever used by the orange order. Hachimanchu (talk) 22:23, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Most of what you point out is circumstantial. Use of Highland "burning cross" symbolism and the Gaelic word C(K)lan, were, as you point out, most likely related to Walter Scott-inspired Victorian romanticism. However, there were not "many" settlers of Scottish Highland/Jacobite origin in the American South, so an actual "folk" tradition inspiring supposed Highland influence on the Klan is unlikely. The only sizeable presence of Highland Scots was in the Cape Fear region of North Carolina. The majority of the "Scottish" settlers in the American South were English-speaking Lowland or Ulster Scots. The use of a saltire in the design of the Confederate battle flag likewise has nothing to do with Scotland. The original design used a "St. George" type cross with vertical and horizontal arms. The Confederate Secreatary of State, Judah Benjamin, a Jew, objected to this design on the grounds that the Confederacy espoused freedom of religion, and that the design should be changed so as not to imply official support for a particular religion. The design was accordingly changed to a saltire. So, having said all that...what you have here is not evidence AGAINST the Orange Order having influenced the early Klan, but of course there is no evidence FOR it either. Eastcote (talk) 15:38, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Having participated in this discussion, I find this edit perplexing likewise this edit?--Domer48_'fenian' 22:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The information concerning the Klan, as has been pointed out by other editors, is irrelevant to the section it is listed under (OO in the USA), and misleading in that it implies a connection that has not been documented. Rather than adding a lot of content that serves only as a laundry list of criticism from newspaper articles and quotes from politicians, a much better encyclopedic approach would be to address specific criticisms of the OO in the relevant sections, relying on reliable scholarly secondary sources. There is much literature on the role of OO members in sectarian violence, and in the role the OO played in job discrimination, etc. That would be much better than criticism through comparison. Eastcote (talk) 23:39, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Dutch perspective

As the Orange Orders take their name from William of Orange, what is the position of the Netherlands on this? I just think it's interesting that the section entitled 'Throughout the World' makes no reference to the fact that a Dutch national is used for the basis of an order bearing their name, but it appears to have no link whatsoever to the country of their origin? Has the establishment of these Orders ever affected the Dutch? I just think it's an interesting legacy that could be addressed in this article. Particularly as one country's national hero is immortalised to a greater extent in another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.169.5.36 (talk) 23:48, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

This is not a forum for discussion, but as far as I know no Dutch lodge ever existed. There was one in Poland briefly, but I do not have a positive source on this. Hachimanchu (talk) 22:57, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

86.169.5.36 what you have to understand is that little or none of the members of the order are aware of the link to the House of Orange (one of the greatest in Europe) or to the fact that the colour worn by the great Cruyff at the 1974 World Cup finals was the same as they wear on the 12th. And let's not forget that Cruyff was great :-) Bjmullan (talk) 21:14, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

On a not entirely unrelated subject, can you find me any reliable sources to confirm at least a passing friendship between fans of rangers fc and ajax? If not as unshakable as the ironclad brotherhood that supposedly exists between rangers and hamburg, and celtic/ st pauli. Hachimanchu (talk) 09:12, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Numbers

The section on structure seems to give a confusing account but doesn't really give an indication of total membership size (it's also unsourced). IRWolfie- (talk) 21:19, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Fermanagh Orangeism

This page should not be merged with the main Orange Order page as this branch of the Order has a lot of individual information that would get lost in the Orange Order's page. The page should not be merged for the same reason that the Fermanagh GAA pages should not be merged with the overall GAA pages - they are individual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ni fact finder (talk • contribs) 11:37, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

This page is fairly unique and should be allowed to stand on its own right, please advise if this tag can be taken off the page in relation to mergers? Ni fact finder (talk) 22:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Please do not merge this page, with a membership of 2500, 90 lodges and some 60 halls; this organization is at the hub of PUL community in fermanagh. With hundreds of events year round and an attendance of over 20k (a third of the population of fermanagh) at the 12th of July (main event). This organisation deserves its own reference page on wiki especially as other smaller or similar sized organizations already have their own pages. The OO in fermanagh is a Christian organisation that provides a common link between different protestant communities, it provides social, culturual, historical, educational, sporting, musical and religious events, as well as numerous charity donations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.159.30 (talk) 18:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Nudge. Any other views on this? RashersTierney (talk) 00:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

I see no reason for it not to exist as its own article. It's something Ni fact finder is clearly passionate about and is putting a lot of work into improving. Let it stay, I say. JonC 08:55, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

I believe the Fermanagh orange gives a broad insight into the orange order within fermanagh. It provides a range of information unique to the county of fermanagh and to the people of fermanagh that are passionate about their lodges. Generations of people that have left this land will be interested in views pages like this as its relative to them on there search for their roots. It also provides a information about a culture that is wide ranging but linked is so many way. I believe the page should have it own unique standing.86.158.69.197 (talk) 20:03, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

• Note : Proposed merge discussion at Talk:Fermanagh Orangeism. RashersTierney (talk) 00:56, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

• I closed the discussion there as merge. I will merge in the worthwhile parts of that article into this one. --John (talk) 06:55, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Mission statement

What is the declared purpose of the organisation? I don't see that in the article.78.86.61.94 (talk) 12:27, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Please do not merge this page, with a membership of 2500, 90 lodges and some 60 halls; this organization is at the hub of PUL community in fermanagh. With hundreds of events year round and an attendance of over 20k (a third of the population of fermanagh) at the 12th of July (main event). This organisation deserves its own reference page on wiki and smaller or similar sized organizations already have their own pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.159.30 (talk) 14:26, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Please reconsider merging this page as Fermanagh and indeed Enniskillen played a very large part in the in the Nine year war or War of the Grand Alliance freeing Europe and saving England and Ireland from the hands of King Louis XlV of France. Because of the victory of William of Orange at The battle of the Boyne we have our civil and religious liberties which we enjoy today for all religions and none! Enniskillen raised 2 armies from the people of Fermanagh to fight in this Battle and surely deserves their individuality in this field of the Orange Order. To merge it would be the same effect as having a city like London, dublin or even Paris linked somewhere under Europe and not given it's proper place as the capital of it's own country. Please reconsider! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.158.179 (talk) 01:13, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Guilt by association list

The nature of any links between the Orange Order and loyalist paramillitaries is an important topic, but I'm a bit concerned that there seems to be a desire to list every member who was also involved in paramillitary activity. There are a number of reasons:

1) Was the person prominent in the Orange Order or was their membership of the Orange Order important in either motivating or aiding their loyalism? There's no evidence that it was in any of this. 2) For that matter there's no real evidence that the membership of the two organisations was overlapping in any of these cases (although unlike point 1 I'd be surprised if they weren't overlapping). 3) The whole guilt by association list approach means that there is a strong smell of original research here. This section barely touches on the Nationalist critique and doesn't mention any official Orange or loyalist response - relying instead on what appears on banners and other important but fragmentary pieces of information better suited to a newspaper article than here.

As said, the link between the Orange Order and Loyalist paramillitaries is important (it is not a red herring like the Ku Klux Klan) but what would be more fitting would be some explanation as to where the allegations are coming from (the Nationalist and Republican communities), why they are important (a massive part in the opposition to marches through Catholic areas), what the Orange Order officially says (I suspect that it really dislikes the link, although the pro-Orange web presence is fairly rubbish so the best I could find was here) and previously noted discrepancies or confimatory views.

Something like:

Many Nationalist and Republican critics of the Orange Order claim that there are extensive links to loyalist paramillitaries, although the Orange Order officially discourages members from paramillitary activity. These perceived links have been an important reason for opposing marches through predominantly Catholic areas although the pro-Nationalist author x has pointed to the concurrent membership of prominent loyalsts y and z.

I think an alternative could be to remove the section, but I think that this is a very important subject in the current debate around the Orange Order.

JASpencer (talk) 09:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Recent addition to lead

In addition to violating WP:LEAD the addition has no page number (which is required), and a search of the book on Google Books shows it does not even contain the words "doctrine", "doctrinal", "injunction" or "uncharitable", and since the addition reads "Proponents have noted that much of the language within the Order's Constitution in relation to Catholic doctrine mirrors that of the mainline Protestant denominations, and the injunction within the Qualifications to abstain from all uncharitable, words, actions or sentiments towards non-Protestants is cited to emphasise the focus on doctrinal, rather than personal, disagreement" you'd expect at least one if not all of those words to appear in the text. In addition the only place the word "constitution" appears in on page 274 in a list of books, the text reading "Kelly, James, Sir Edward Newenham, MP, 1783-1814: Defender of the Protestant Constitution (Dublin, 2004)". As such I dispute that the book sources that text, and it is up to those who claim it does to provide quotes proving it. I also note in addition that the synopsis of the book is "A bleak, honest, and shocking account of how Northern Ireland's Orange Order, a religious institution founded in 1795 to defend Protestantism, has tragically departed from its core values and become associated with sectarian violence and political intrigue", which suggests the source is not being used in an NPOV way. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I was not the original editor to insert this reference. I did however re-insert it. I've read the book, and the author's general thrust is that the Orange Order has become increasingly more sectarian over the course of its life. He stresses that the Order's charter is to oppose Catholic doctrine, but that physical actions against Catholics are a betrayal of what the order is supposed to stand for. He does indeed state that there is no material difference between the official Orange position on Catholicism and the doctrinal positions of the main Protestant denominations, and that the Order specifically states an Orangeman is to be "ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren". The author, Brian Kenneway, is former head of the Order's education program, and cites examples of the "true" spirit of the order in charitable work some lodges of the Order engage in, including financial assistance to rebuild damaged Catholic churches and homes. The book is criticism from within, of what some do in the name of the Order, but the book defends what the Order is supposed to be. Whether or not the text inserted into Misplaced Pages is "verbatim" from the book is immaterial. We aren't supposed to simply plagiarize here. What the editor wrote, is indeed the essence of what the author says in the book, whether or not the words "doctrine", "injunction", etc., are specifically used. The source was not used in a NPOV way by the original editor. The source says what it says. I will dig the book out, give it a fresh view, and insert appropriate page numbers, etc. If criticism of the Order is allowed to appear in the lead, and ONLY criticism, then there is no neutrality. Articles should have balance. Eastcote (talk) 17:34, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm more than aware things don't have to be verbatim. That's why I picked single and specific words, at least one of which you would expect to find in the book. I can't think of that many synonyms for "uncharitable", care to name the one that the book uses if you still want to assert the book does source the addition? The same applies to the other words too obviously. The further problem with the word uncharitable is that you say "He does indeed state that . . . and that the Order specifically states an Orangeman is to be "ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren"". I'm well aware that the quote is legitimate, but the problem is uncharitable doesn't appear to be in the book. I also don't see how a book by an Orange Order member that acknowledges the Order is indeed sectarian can be used to rebut claims of sectarianism on the grounds they are only as sectarian as mainstream Protestantism, in the opinion of the author. Let's not forget "No catholic and no-one whose close relatives are catholic may be a member", I don't see guards on the door of Protestant churches quizzing people as to whether their relatives are Catholic before letting them in, nor am I aware of any such rule in mainstream Protestant doctrine that forbids Protestants from having Catholic family members. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

"Doctrinal" is on page 5. "Uncharitable" is on page 7. No one is using this source to say the order is not sectarian. What the author is saying is that the order is indeed sectarian, but that this is opposed to what he considers the "true" spirit of Orangism. Restrictive membership requirements are not unique to the Orange Order. The Knights of Columbus has these membership requirements: "Membership in the Knights of Columbus is open to men 18 years of age or older who are practical (that is, practicing) Catholics in union with the Holy See. A practical Catholic accepts the teaching authority of the Catholic Church on matters of faith and morals, aspires to live in accord with the precepts of the Catholic Church, and is in good standing in the Catholic Church." But this restriction does not imply that the Knights of Columbus are hostile to Protestants. And that is precisely Kenneway's point. The Orange Order's qualifications include the restriction of Protestants-only, and the duty to uphold Protestantism. The qualifications also include a specific injunction to abstain from hostility in word, thought, or deed towards Catholics. Sectarian violence, and use of the Order to discriminate in jobs, housing, or whatever, are contrary to the Order's own qualifications, and Kenneway argues for the Order to take a stand against such actions, which are often taken in its own name. Eastcote (talk) 19:41, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

As mentioned above, I have reviewed the book, and have inserted a new para on what the book has to say, with appropriate quotes, page numbers, etc. Eastcote (talk) 01:57, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I would have to agree this doesn't belong in the lead, please read WP:LEAD. Mo ainm~Talk 11:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

So, why would it not belong in the lead? There is already a para in the lead that references sectarianism. This para directly relates to that first para from an inside perspective. If this doesn't belong in the lead, than the highly critical, non-neutral, one-sided para preceding it certainly does not belong in the lead. What would you say to a separate section in the article that addresses specifically criticism, controversy, etc., so that all of that can be addressed in one place? Eastcote (talk) 12:37, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Citing cases about nazis

The article mentioned that the Orange order had once cited a US Supreme Court case dealing with Nazis' right to parade. I deleted the reference as it seemed a completely unfair way of attacking the order. Perhaps they are as bad as the KKK but the fact that they cite one of the leading cases from the US Supreme Court on the right to demonstrate is hardly proof of anything. MathHisSci (talk) 23:21, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

The Order was citing the US Supreme Court case dealing with Nazis' and the KKK's right to parade. In the context of the paragraph it is relevant. Please explain in what why this is attacking the Order. --Domer48_'fenian' 11:08, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The statement is in the context of a discussion whether they are similar to the KKK. The fact that they once or twice cited a case were white supremacists and Nazis where parties is irrelevant to that question. Anyone whose demonstrations are banned as being too controversial might cite these cases. I am sure you can find some Pride Parade organizers somewhere who have done so.

As for why it is attacking the Order: surely the potential for guilt-by-association thinking is obvious. Indeed, if whoever wrote the statement did not think it made the Order seem like the KKK I am at loss to how it could be considered relevant for the section. MathHisSci (talk) 22:11, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

That the parallels with the Ku Klux Klan having already been established makes the the arguement of "guilt-by-association" moot. This parallel extends to the Order themselves citing the KKK's right to parade therefore it is relevant. Are you suggesting otherwise? --Domer48_'fenian' 11:33, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

First of all I am not sure the parallels have been "established". It is possible that people will not be convinced by Tim Pat Coogan's claims. Secondly I disagree that the Order citing a case involving the KKK establishes a relevant parallel. The only thing it establishes is that both organization want to hold demonstrations/parades that the Government want to stop them from holding. This is a very weak similarity, and not a particularly interesting one since it is shared with so many other groups. MathHisSci (talk) 23:20, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

In referencing the Nazi and Klan court decisions, what the OO were claiming was a right to free speech, which is hardly (and hopefully) not a controversial claim. Also, using Coogan in this article as a source for a connection with the KKK implies that Coogan actually said something substantive. As pointed out before, Coogan's assertion concerning the OO/KKK connection was a single phrase stating "Orangeism manifested itself in...the Ku Klux Klan". Coogan offers no elaborative details, while other scholars on the formation and early history of the Klan make no mention of a relationship between the OO and the Klan. In the face of Klan-specific scholarship that is silent on this "manifestation" of the OO, Coogan's partial sentence does not a reliable source make. Eastcote (talk) 00:28, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the passage about the US Supreme Court case as it is synthesis. It is an attempt to link the preceding and subsequent sections about the Order's claimed similarities to the KKK with its citation of a US Supreme Court case about the right to march that happens to involve the US Nazi Party and KKK, thus implying that the Order itself acknowledges that it is similar to the KKK and/or US Nazi Party. Mooretwin (talk) 12:29, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Domer's colleague Mo ainm has just reverted this, in breach of WP policy, with the irrelevant statement "this is a statement of fact". Whether or not it is factual is not the issue! Dear me. Mooretwin (talk) 12:57, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, sadly not much progress can be made on this article to make it more encyclopedic in tone. Currently there are a couple of places where it contains guilt-by-association lists, and undue weight is given to content of questionable relevance. Every attempt to balance it out is met by what you are encountering. Eastcote (talk) 13:25, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

The "guilt by association" sections of this article are making an argument in favor of a particular POV, which is clearly in violation of Wiki NPOV policy. As editors we should acknowledge and describe the different sides of a controversy, but should not argue them in an article. The arguments being made are similar to saying "Joe, Jim and Jack smoke cigarettes, and Joe, Jim and Jack own Fords; therefore, people who own Fords smoke cigarettes and are causing the deaths of millions by second-hand smoke." A controversy should be able to be acknowledged and described by refering to a reliable scholarly source (and there are many on the OO), and not by doing original research by harvesting every newspaper article one can find. Eastcote (talk) 14:39, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Quite. And this passage in particular is clearly synthesis. It is an attempt to argue > Tim Pat Coogan thinks the OO is like the KKK > In arguing for its right to march, the OO themselves cited a Supreme Court case about the KKK right to march > Therefore the OO themselves agree that they are like the KKK. Mooretwin (talk) 15:02, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the "parallels" section altogether, as it appears to serve no purpose other than to condemn the Orange Order through very tenuous association with the KKK, that the sources do not support. As MathHisSci has pointed out above, Coogan does not say that there is a parallel between the two organisations. The discussion above demonstrates that there is no consensus for this controversial section to be included in the article. Mooretwin (talk) 11:24, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

No it doesn't. Comparisons between the Order and KKK are rightfully made by multiple sources. This discussion wasn't even a proposal to remove the entire section anyway. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

"Comparisons" are not the same as "parallels". And what "multiple sources" make the comparisons? All we have is Coogan claiming that Orangeism manifested itself in the KKK. That's one nationalist author and it doesn't mean there is a parallel between the two organisations. Let's be honest here: this section has been added by Irish-nationalist editors seeking to demonise the ORange Order. You know it. I know it. Mooretwin (talk) 12:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

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