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Revision as of 07:18, 10 March 2012

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Proposed external link.

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Media, the arts, and architecture Unsorted Error: Invalid RfC category specified: |external link When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

I would like to add an external link on the Foster and Partners wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/Foster_and_Partners). That external link will be from the Foster and Partners personal profile on the Archello web site. ( An architectural platform for the built environment).

This will be the external link to add on the page:

• Foster and Partners publications on Archello

I realize that is a minor change and I can added directly by my own, attaching a summary on it. However I'm not sure if that is enough, that's why I write this request to ask advise and avoid future requests.

Thanks for understanding.

Greetings.

Archello1 (talk) 11:08, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Why do you feel that that is not enough? --Dirk Beetstra 11:22, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

comment Add it if the link gives extra content than what is in the artcle. If the link has the same info as the article then don't bother. SD (talk contribs) 00:50, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Confusion regarding some links

I added an external link from a copyright website to different articles, basically they were from the same website, but totally in context with the articles, but a senior Wikipedian removed them. I don't say that he is wrong but I am a bit confused. He guided me to the Misplaced Pages:External links page and I read it. I have noticed a point, following which I can add the links under the external links heading in all the articles. I just wanted any senior editor to help me out in this regard and guide me. Just wanted a neutral opinion of some one who is an expert.
The point that I am referring to is Point # 3What can normally be linked. They are a lot of articles (May be 10 I guess) so I am going to mention a few of them.

• Marathon asset management
• Paul Tudor Jones
• John W. Rogers, Jr.
• Mohnish Pabrai
  

Thanks --Inlandmamba (talk) 06:43, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

To me this looks like a misunderstanding of how to address copyrighted images. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the external links were added to address the concerns that images were under copyright.

Misunderstanding aside, most of the links were unrelated to the article topic itself. The links added to biographical articles of individuals were to profiles on the companies associated with the individuals, rather than articles on the individuals themselves. The links added to articles about corporations should be evaluated against WP:RS criteria, and if acceptable, added to the article talk pages as potential sources for verification or expansion. --Ronz (talk) 17:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

If this is the case then the links should have been only deleted from the pages of the individuals and not from the companies.--Inlandmamba (talk) 05:23, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. So you seem to be adding links like http://www.hedgefundletters.com/category/marathon-asset-management/ to articles like Marathon Asset Management, along with images like File:Bruce Richards, Marathon Asset Management.jpg. Misplaced Pages needs the URL—but it needs it only on the File page, not in the article, and never under the ==External links== heading. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:52, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, but it is not for any advertisement and I have placed a copyrighted source. I agree with User:Ronz that caricatures don't belong in an encyclopedia, but can't these links be used as references? And as far as the external links heading is concerned The point that I am referring to is Point # 3What can normally be linked. Isn't it supporting what I am saying. You can correct me if I am wrong in understanding the meaning. I'll really appreciate that.
Thanks--Inlandmamba (talk) 07:36, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Let's not try to justify bad links after the fact. We've established they were added in an attempt to address copyright problems with images. Such links simply don't belong.

If someone wants to use some of the links as sources, it would be best to check at WP:RSN. I'd say don't use them since the letters might be confused as secondary sources rather than primary and self-published. (From a brief skim, it looks like the site collects and republishes letters from hedge fund organizations, and includes their own profile of each organization.) --Ronz (talk) 21:08, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Inlandmamba, ELYES #3 simply doesn't apply. There are two reasons for this:

1. Nothing in the entire guideline applies to material that has been added to the article—say, an image placed in the article.
2. ELYES #3 specifically says it applies to "material that...cannot be integrated into the Misplaced Pages article due to copyright issues". You can add these image into the Misplaced Pages article—you arranged permission—so ELYES doesn't apply. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:51, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

So User:WhatamIdoing, that means that I can add the images to the articles but not the links? Because I have taken permission from the copyright holder and the OTRS volunteer has allowed me to use them. And if I want to add the links I would have to send a permission to Misplaced Pages?
--Inlandmamba (talk) 18:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

More precisely, the Misplaced Pages:External links guideline does not prohibit you from adding either the images or the links as part of the article content (that is, not as part of the ==External links== list). Of course, the EL guideline never prohibits any image or link or other type of article content. It only prohibits (or allows) things that belong under the ==External links== heading.

Whether you can add the images and/or the links as part of the regular article content (not part of the ==External links==) is a question for another page. Material added to the regular article content must comply with all of the sourcing and content policies, as well as having general support ("WP:Consensus") from the editors at that particular article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Editor adding his YouTube videos to multiple sites

Archaeomoonwalker (talk · contribs) is adding his YouTube videos to various articles - they are of course the equivalent of a personal website. Perhaps someone here could have a word with him? I've reverted one but don't want to discourage him from editing, just from doing this. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the spamming and left a note for him to review WP:COI. At this point, he may simply be unaware of his talk page and the messages there. --Ronz (talk) 20:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 06:26, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

ingobeautysalons.com

The following is copied directly from user talk:Nickiberotto, being moved here to make for a more open discussion where a larger portion of the community can weigh in on the merits of the link.

Article involved:

• Beauty salon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Link involved:

• ingobeautysalons.com: Linksearch en - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C Cross-wiki • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced • COIBot-Local - COIBot-XWiki - Misplaced Pages: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.org • Live link: http://www.ingobeautysalons.com

Copied discussion that started following my removal of a link they had added:

Hello Barek! Thank you for trying to keep Misplaced Pages intact and free of vandalism - I know it's a tough job and I am glad that there are people out there like yourself who take it seriously. Having said that, I would like to ask you whether you would be able to explain why you believe that this link does not comply with the guidelines. I am a writer and I work with several online properties, but have not linked to any of them on Misplaced Pages because I think I have a pretty good understanding of what's acceptable and what's not. This one, in my opinion, adds a lot of value to the Beauty Salon wiki page and that is why I believe that it should be included. As stated in the description, it's a comprehensive directory of beauty salons in the US (as per the guidelines of links that are accepted; "a well-chosen link to a directory of websites or organizations"), and furthermore, the site allows for visitors to add salons and owners to update their salon information (which is in line with the whole wiki concept). There are also a lot of people working on it to ensure that everything is accurate. With over 60,000 salons currently on the site, a number that grows on a daily basis, I really do believe that the link adds to the wiki page. Let me know if you think otherwise!

Nickiberotto (talk • contribs) - 29 February 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that external links should be to material that adds to the encyclopedic understanding of the article subject, while this link is a commercial directory - simply a business directory of commercial websites. More specifically, the link fails WP:ELNO criterias #1, #4, #5, #13, and #14. If you disagree and still feel that the link should be added, please bring the link up for discussion at the external link noticeboard. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:59, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt reply. I tried to edit the page you suggested, but I was not sure how to start a new section and didn't want to mess up the structure, so I decided to reply to you here. I know that it may be too much to ask, but maybe you can copy this whole talk into the external link noticeboard so that others can pitch in as well - I wish I knew how to do that. In regards to the criterias that you mentioned:

1. 1 - "unique resource beyond what the article would contain" - I strongly believe that it does. The same way that a DMOZ link would, by being a directory of further resources on the very topic of the article. In this case, the topic is beauty salons, so it would be reasonable to include a directory of beauty salons. Don't you think?
2. 4 - "Links mainly intended to promote a website" - That could be argued for pretty much every external link on Misplaced Pages. All those links are essentially promoting sites whether that was the initial intent or not. Having said that, the ones that are actual spam as explained in the respective Misplaced Pages page are obvious.
3. 5 - Same as the above. A user tried to replace the link that I added with a spam link and I reverted the change as soon as I saw that. The same user tried to do the same in several other pages and fortunately he/she was caught and those links were removed. Affiliate links, links to videos promoting products or links to pages with excessive advertisements, definitely do not have a place here! These are clearly made for the sole purpose of promotion. Furthermore, if an individual salon were to add their site as an external link, then again, that would not be acceptable. But the purpose of the link that I added is to expand upon the information in the article/page.
4. 13 - "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject" - I don't see how the site is indirectly related to the article's subject. They are both about beauty salons - the relation is truly direct.
5. 14 - "Lists of links to manufacturers, suppliers or customers." - There was no list of links. I just added 1 link to a salon directory.

And again, I really appreciate you taking the time to go through this with me. I know that it's not your "job" to reply to any of my messages, but I thought that since you were the only respectable person to revert my addition, I should try to talk about it with you. Based on the above, and if you agree, I would like to re-add the link on the page.

Let me know what you think.

Nickiberotto (talk • contribs) - 29 February 2012 (UTC)

To me, the link is simply a business directory - or a directory of spam links, making the directory link itself spam in nature. Obviously, there's a difference of interpretation of both the value of the link, as well as a difference in the interpretation of WP:EL, so I suggested bringing the discussion here for input by additional members of the community. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:57, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

It boils down to the fact that all it is, is a listing of businesses. Even if your other arguments are true, it absolutely DOES apply to #14. The only point of going to the site is to find a business. There's also no "encyclopedic understanding" to be had here. Someone else could explain it in better words, but it's pretty clearly against the EL guidelines. (unlike the above poster I would disagree that it is in fact spam, however) ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 17:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

-- Thank you for pitching in Melodia. And yes, I agree with what you are saying. It is a business directory, so in turn, it is listing businesses. However, I think that #14 refers to spam directories that actually contain long lists of links (links being the keyword here) to businesses. For example, adding a link to the page of a tradeshow listing links to their sponsors would definitely not be acceptable. However, there are no links (or lists of links) involved here. The reason I strongly believe that this link is not against the EL guidelines is the fact that DMOZ links are widely accepted and usually listed as as external links. A great example is Fashion. Notice the Open Directory link under External Links. If anything, that would be a more questionable link due to the fact that it actually is a list of links which is not true for the link in this case. Don't you agree? Nickiberotto (talk) 22:56, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Just thought I should clarify further - there are absolutely no links to businesses in the directory. There are addresses and phone numbers. Nickiberotto (talk) 22:58, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

The fact they are addresses and phone numbers rather than links it pretty irrelevant. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 23:14, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Addresses and phone numbers simply aren't encyclopedic information. They're telephone directory information. A person who wants to know more about the idea or concept of a beauty salon isn't going to be further educated by a list of addresses and phone numbers for beauty salons. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I see where you are coming from Melodia and WhatamIdoing. But the issue here goes beyond that. The link was taken down due to the fact that it was considered a "spam" link, and I firmly stand by the fact that it's anything but that. Misplaced Pages is not a simple encyclopedia - I am sure you will agree with that. It is a collective effort to provide up to date and accurate information about anything, whether that's a concept, a person, or a business. And sometimes, directories can help add to that information. As it's specifically stated within the External Links and Point #3 of "What To Link To" WP:ELMAYBE - "A well-chosen link to a directory of websites or organizations" - Isn't that exactly what the link in question is? That is the question. I believe it is and that is why I would like to add it again. If I thought that it wasn't, I wouldn't have added it in the first place because I really respect the work that's being done here. Nickiberotto (talk) 00:49, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Correction, it was removed as I considered it "advert linkspam", not "spam", there is a subtle difference.

As to the link, the fundamental fact is that the site is a business directory - an on-line yellow-pages. The site is simply not a "well chosen" link, due to the ELNO issues and lack of encyclopedic content. No content of that site would ever meet inclusion criteria on their own, unloading it to a secondary site to bypass the inclusion criteria is likewise not appropriate. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 04:40, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification Barek. Can you please also compare the link to the one from DMOZ listed in Fashion? In my opinion, the one in Fashion is definitely of less value, don't you agree? So, if that (and many other comparable links) is acceptable, then wouldn't it make sense for Ingo Beauty Salons to be as well? Furthermore, the link was originally added in December. Since then, several editors have revised the page, including some that deleted actual spam links that had been added to the page, yet none of them removed that link. The bots also removed spam links but did not change this one. I guess that what I am trying to say is that a few people, obviously including myself, believe that the link actually adds value to the page. A small note here - the person who repeatedly deleted the link was a spammer whose first intention was to replace it with a spam link which I removed promptly. Since then, he/she simply decided to start a "game" where they would remove the link and I would add it back on. That "game" stopped when you stepped in and I realized that you weren't simply the same spammer under a different nickname. I really believe that the link should be on the page, but I definitely don't want to be childish and try to revert it back all the time. That's why I am trying to explain my reasoning here. Nickiberotto (talk) 08:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Dear " Nicki Berotto, VP of Marketing of Ingo" you have a conflict of interest. As was explained above, ingobeautysalons.com is a Link normally to be avoided and fails Wikipedias specific requirements of our External Links policy, Verifiability Policy and Reliable Source guidelines. Additionaly, Misplaced Pages is NOT a "vehicle for advertising". Equally Misplaced Pages is not a place to to promote your site. Thank you for your understanding.--Hu12 (talk) 19:20, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Hello Hu12. I will begin by saying that as you can read at the very beginning of this conversation, I never withheld the fact that I work with Ingo. I am only specifying that because your reply seemed a little bit sarcastic, and wanted to clear the air - feel free to disregard it if that was not your intention. Having said that, while there are rules in regards to conflict of interest, and rightfully so, that does not mean that any editor who is related to an individual/company/group has no right to edit an article that is also related to it. What the rules specifically state is that such editors should not do so if the goal is to promote or advance that individual/company/group and not the cause of Misplaced Pages. What I am trying to explain here is that I do strongly believe that this link would add to Misplaced Pages, so there is no real COI. In regards to the Verifiability Policy and Reliable Source guidelines, again, I have to bring up the example from my previous reply about the links to Open Directory/DMOZ. I am sure that there are many other, more questionable links to talk about, but this one is so similar in many ways and it is specifically listed as one of those links that would be acceptable. So, can you clarify how linking to a page from DMOZ is any different (or better) than linking to Ingo? I can definitely list many reasons why the opposite is true, but maybe I am not understanding something. Nickiberotto (talk) 10:01, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

One of Misplaced Pages's pillars is neutrality. Neutrality is an important objective at Misplaced Pages, Conflict of interest isn't just a matter of Useful vs. non-useful, but about self-promotion in general. Unfortunately your conflict of interest editing involves contributing to Misplaced Pages under Nickiberotto and IP 76.90.3.211, in order to promote ingobeautysalons.com. Infact, even in this discussion you continue to promote the inclusion of ingobeautysalons.com. You don't see yourself as having an Conflict of interest; You perceive your biases as neutral. I hope you can see the problem here;

"What I am trying to explain here is that I do strongly believe that this link would add to Misplaced Pages, so there is no real COI."

— Nickiberotto VP of Marketing of Ingo 10:01, 3 March 2012

Furthermore, about those links to Open Directory/DMOZ; The nature of Misplaced Pages means that you can't make a convincing argument based on what other links in articles do or don't exist; So just pointing out that DMOZ's links exist in articles doesn't prove that ingobeautysalons.com should also exist. As was explained above, ingobeautysalons.com fails a multitude of Wikipedias inclusion criteria. Unlike Misplaced Pages, DMOZ is a web directory specifically designed to categorize and list all Internet sites; if you've not already gotten your sites listed there, I encourage you to do so -- it's a more appropriate venue for your links than wikipedia.

--Hu12 (talk) 15:04, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

The general point behind the DMOZ (and similar) links is that we'd rather have one DMOZ link at an article like Cancer than to have dozens or hundreds of external links in our own article. We would accept many of these links at the article, except that we don't really want to have dozens or hundreds of external links in any article. And how to do you choose between dozens of equally good links to, say, national cancer charities? Whatever you pick will be suboptimal from someone's perspective: the American Cancer Society page isn't as useful to someone in Africa as an African group might be. So we chose a directory listing of lots of links, far more than we could accept here.

By contrast, we would never accept dozens or hundreds of external links to local beauty salons. Consequently, a directory listing of local beauty salons is not going to be acceptable. It provides only information that we would never want to have in the first place. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:09, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

It's limited to the United States. It's explicitly commercial and designed to promote, for a price, specific beauty salons. It advertises. But the greatest objection to it is that there's absolutely nothing encyclopedic about it. The only thing someone could learn from this page is where to find a beauty salon in the US, not useful information about beauty salons in general with world-wide merit. Absolutely inappropriate. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 21:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Magnus Hirschfeld Archive for Sexology

Could I ask for some input on the Magnus Hirschfeld Archive for Sexology as an EL at sexology? It appears to have some useful material in a wide range of languages.

Recently an EL to sexual-medicine.org was added, apparently by its President. I commented on the article's talk page, asking for other's thoughts, but was leaning toward removing it eventually. Another editor responded by removing all of the ELs except for sexual-medicine.org (and adding DMOZ). Granted, many of the other ELs were long dead or non-English, but the one page I questioned is the only one still there. This seems strange. Should sexual-medicine.org be kept and www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/index.html removed? BitterGrey (talk) 05:10, 4 March 2012‎ (UTC)

The DMOZ link has a link to the MH archive . WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 12:52, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I would say MH is much more widely known that sexual-medicine.org. Not sure it is of much use for a casual reader though. -- Richiez (talk) 13:19, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Is this resolved, or do you need more help? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:33, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Discussions are explicitly closed at AN/I, but I wasn't aware that was the practice here at EL/N. I thought they simply were archived after a while. WhatamIdoing, might I ask why you asked? Since you have joined the conversation, please feel free to share your thoughts on the ELs being discussed. BitterGrey (talk) 02:21, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

The general goal at ELN is for everyone to get the help they need. It's not always obvious from comments here whether that's happened, especially when the disputants have a long and fractious history.

I haven't looked at the links and therefore have no opinion. If Richiez's comments are sufficient to resolve the dispute, then I see no need for me to form an opinion on the links. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:14, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

"long and fractious history"? I'm curious about why you write that, WhatamIdoing. Sure, I've had past disagreements with the editor who most recently re-added the EL to Magnus Hirschfeld Archive, but it seems hard to imagine a more suitable EL. Another particular editor has included the EL as an RS source in another article. Are you suggesting the EL's removal might not have been about the EL?

Frankly, I'm feeling singled out, and am concerned by the number of comments in this discussion that aren't about the ELs. I accept Richiez's comment, but was hoping for something more explicit. BitterGrey (talk) 07:18, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

A painting at Daphne

On March 5 an IP (75.87.129.242) added an external link to Daphne for a Kansas City-based artist's interpretation of the myth of Apollo and Daphne. (It should probably be noted that the IP is in KC, both where the artist lives and where the painting is in a private collection; this IP has not added any other links to the artist's work.) I immediately reverted with the none-too-friendly edit summary "Spam". The IP kindly asked my rationale instead of just re-adding the link, to which I replied: "I deleted the link because the painting by Mr. Goodrich does not contribute to an encyclopedic understanding of the topic itself and is not (by Misplaced Pages standards) notable enough to warrant inclusion based upon the its own, or the painter's, notability." Since the IP is clearly editing in good faith, I bring the discussion here, just in case I'm way out of bounds. — cardiff | chestnut — 02:12, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Overall, I think I agree with you: Your first WP:edit summary was not especially friendly and probably inaccurate. However, the link really doesn't belong on that particular page, since it doesn't really tell the reader anything encyclopedic (e.g., useful, informative, factual, etc.) about Daphne. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:20, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

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