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Revision as of 15:45, 11 March 2012 editDHeyward (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers18,753 editsm →Propose removal of topic ban of Tom harrison ← Previous edit		Revision as of 16:03, 11 March 2012 edit undoDHeyward (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers18,753 edits →Propose removal of topic ban of Tom harrison Next edit →
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	*I make no judgement on whether on whether the topic ban should be lifted, but I strongly resent the thinly veiled accusations that the admins at AE acted improperly. Arbitration enforcement is a difficult area to work in, and a thankless task—we deal with the most bitter, partisan disputes on Misplaced Pages, the disputes that ArbCom has given up on and imposed discretionary sanctions, and this often involves sanctioning long-established and otherwise well-respected editors, for which the sanctioned editor and their mates will accuse admin of being biased against them, and when a determination is made that no sanction is warranted, the filing editor and their mates will accuse admins of being biased in favour of the editor in question. However, the admins who decide the result of an AE thread are neutral, uninvolved admins who simply decide whether the conduct of the editor in question is of the required standard, nd if not, what sanction (if any) to impose. Second, the "initial warning" wording means only that the editor must be ''aware'' of the discretionary sanctions on a topic area—given that Tom Harrison has previously enforced this remedy (when he was an admin), and requested enforcement of it, nobody could claim in good faith that he was not aware of it. {{small\|Disclaimer: I have participated in discussions surrounding the inclusion or otherwise of conspiracy theories in the 9/11 article, so I do not consider myself to be an uninvolved administrator, which is also why I abstained from the relevant AE thread.}} ] \| ] 09:10, 11 March 2012 (UTC)		*I make no judgement on whether on whether the topic ban should be lifted, but I strongly resent the thinly veiled accusations that the admins at AE acted improperly. Arbitration enforcement is a difficult area to work in, and a thankless task—we deal with the most bitter, partisan disputes on Misplaced Pages, the disputes that ArbCom has given up on and imposed discretionary sanctions, and this often involves sanctioning long-established and otherwise well-respected editors, for which the sanctioned editor and their mates will accuse admin of being biased against them, and when a determination is made that no sanction is warranted, the filing editor and their mates will accuse admins of being biased in favour of the editor in question. However, the admins who decide the result of an AE thread are neutral, uninvolved admins who simply decide whether the conduct of the editor in question is of the required standard, nd if not, what sanction (if any) to impose. Second, the "initial warning" wording means only that the editor must be ''aware'' of the discretionary sanctions on a topic area—given that Tom Harrison has previously enforced this remedy (when he was an admin), and requested enforcement of it, nobody could claim in good faith that he was not aware of it. {{small\|Disclaimer: I have participated in discussions surrounding the inclusion or otherwise of conspiracy theories in the 9/11 article, so I do not consider myself to be an uninvolved administrator, which is also why I abstained from the relevant AE thread.}} ] \| ] 09:10, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
			:* I believe the lack of a warning by an involved admin is a procedural error. I am not uninvolved so whether or not their conclusions about Tom's edits are correct is not a fair point for me to bring up. However, it appears they took the "warning" by TDA as sufficient. It is not. If Jeffrey Dahmer had complained to the uninvolved Prison Warden that his choice for a last meal was ignored by Tom Harrison and showed letters where Tom had denied his request, it would be improper for the prison warden to simply rely on Dahmers warnings that he should be served his preferred meal. Dahmer could be correct and be requesting string beans or something, but Tom should have been warned directly by the Prison Warden and not have to interpret whether Dahmers request was proper as Dahmer has a history of requesting rather inappropriate meals. It's the difficult part of enforcement because an uninvolved admin has no knowledge of Dahmer, the meals, the history, etc, and that is why it would have been more appropriate to warn Tom by the admin prior to the ban. Tom has taken it in stride as can be shown by his edit history. Compare it to TDA's last 30 days. --] (]) 16:03, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
	* Let's ask the AE admins to review and reconsider. It's very easy to cherry pick through anyone's contributions and POV pushers are often extremely adept at doing this in order to deflect attention away from their own behaviour. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 12:12, 11 March 2012 (UTC)		* Let's ask the AE admins to review and reconsider. It's very easy to cherry pick through anyone's contributions and POV pushers are often extremely adept at doing this in order to deflect attention away from their own behaviour. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 12:12, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 16:03, 11 March 2012

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Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive367#RfC_closure_review_request_at_Talk:Rajiv_Dixit#RFC_can_we_say_he_peddaled_false_hoods_in_the_lede

(Initiated 19 days ago on 5 December 2024) - Ratnahastin (talk) 07:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 11 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

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Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Mentoring process

(Initiated 223 days ago on 15 May 2024) Discussion died down quite a long time ago. I do not believe anything is actionable but a formal closure will help. Soni (talk) 04:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 78 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Turkey#RfC_on_massacres_and_genocides_in_the_lead

(Initiated 77 days ago on 8 October 2024) Expired tag, no new comments in more than a week. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. Also see: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard topic. Bogazicili (talk) 17:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: Not sure if anyone is looking into this, but might be a good idea to wait for a few weeks since there is ongoing discussion. Bogazicili (talk) 16:33, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Talk_page_guidelines#Request_for_comment:_Do_the_guidelines_in_WP:TPO_also_apply_to_archived_talk_pages?

(Initiated 69 days ago on 16 October 2024) Discussion seems to have petered out a month ago. Consensus seems unclear. Gnomingstuff (talk) 02:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Note: Needs admin closure imho, due to its importance (guideline page), length (101kb), and questions about neutrality of the Rfc question and what it meant. Mathglot (talk) 21:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

And in true Streisand effect fashion, this discussion, quiescent for six weeks, has some more responses again. Mathglot (talk) 01:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 57 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. 22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Grey_Literature

(Initiated 45 days ago on 10 November 2024) Discussion is slowing significantly. Likely no consensus, personally. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 was very clearly rejected. The closer should try to see what specific principles people in the discussion agreed upon if going with a no consensus close, because there should be a follow-up RfC after some of the details are hammered out. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:10, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Doing... —Compassionate727 13:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Compassionate727: Still working on this? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:18, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Ugh… in practice, no. I'm still willing to do it, but it's in hiatus because of the three(!) pending challenges of my closures at AN, while I evaluate to what extent I need to change how I approach closures. If somebody else wants to take over this, they should feel free. —Compassionate727 22:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Taking a pause is fair. Just wanted to double check. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 00:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

asking for an update if possible. I think this RFC and previous RFCBEFORE convos were several TOMATS long at this point, so I get that this might take time. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment#RFC_on_signing_RFCs

(Initiated 41 days ago on 13 November 2024) - probably gonna stay status quo, but would like a closure to point to Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Done Soni (talk) 21:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Check Your Fact

(Initiated 41 days ago on 13 November 2024) RfC has elapsed, and uninvolved closure is requested. — Red-tailed sock _{(Red-tailed hawk's nest)} 15:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#RfC Indian numbering conventions

(Initiated 38 days ago on 16 November 2024) Very wide impact, not much heat. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Consensus seems clear, I don't think my Indian-ness poses a WP;COI here, closed. Soni (talk) 22:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of fictional countries set on Earth#RfC on threshold for inclusion

(Initiated 34 days ago on 20 November 2024) TompaDompa (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (music)#RfC about the naming conventions for boy bands

(Initiated 16 days ago on 8 December 2024) No further participation in the last 7 days. Consensus is clear but I am the opener of the RfC and am not comfortable closing something I am so closely involved in, so would like somebody uninvolved to close it if they believe it to be appropriate.RachelTensions (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable closing a discussion on a guideline change this early. In any case, if the discussion continues as it has been, a formal closure won't be necessary. —Compassionate727 13:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation#RfC: Should a bot be created to handle AfC submissions that haven't changed since the last time they were submitted?

(Initiated 39 days ago on 15 November 2024) This RfC expired five days ago, has an unclear consensus, I am involved, and discussion has died down. JJP_{Mas_ter} (she/they) 22:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Len_Blavatnik#RfC:_NPOV_in_the_lead

(Initiated 8 days ago on 16 December 2024) RFC is only 5 days old as of time of this posting, but overwhelming consensus approves of status quo, except for a single COI editor. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The CoI editor has now accepted that consensus is for the status quo, but I think a formal close from an uninvolved editor, summarizing the consensus would be helpful, since the issue has been coming up for a while and many editors were involved. — penultimate_supper 🚀 16:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

yes, despite multiple posts to WP:BLPN, WP:NPOVN, WP:3O, several talk page discussions, and now an RFC, I doubt the pressure to remove word oligarch from the lede of that page will stop. An appropriate close could be a useful thing to point at in the future though. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Template talk:Infobox country#Request for comment on greenhouse emissions

(Initiated 88 days ago on 27 September 2024) Lots of considered debate with good points made. See the nom's closing statement. Kowal2701 (talk) 09:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 32 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Chloe Melas#RFC on allegation of making a false allegation (resubmission)

(Initiated 30 days ago on 24 November 2024) The bot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an independent close. TarnishedPath 23:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

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Deletion discussions

XFD backlog
V	Nov	Dec	Total
CfD	0	22	22
TfD	0	0	0
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RfD	9	40	49
AfD	0	1	1

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of songs recorded by Mohammed Rafi (A)

Please review this discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion has now been relisted thrice. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 16#Category:Origin stories

(Initiated 23 days ago on 2 December 2024) House Blaster (talk • he/they) 03:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Done —Compassionate727 15:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 14#Template:Support-group-stub

(Initiated 11 days ago on 14 December 2024) House Blaster (talk • he/they) 05:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Done —Compassionate727 15:17, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

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Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 91 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:LGBT history in Georgia#Proposed merge of LGBT rights in Georgia into LGBT history in Georgia

(Initiated 79 days ago on 7 October 2024) A merge + move request with RM banners that needs closure. No new comments in 20 days. —CX Zoom 20:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 69 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Tesla Cybercab#Proposed merge of Tesla Network into Tesla Cybercab

(Initiated 67 days ago on 18 October 2024) This needs formal closure by someone uninvolved. N2e (talk) 03:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Stadion Miejski (Białystok)#Requested move 5 November 2024

(Initiated 49 days ago on 5 November 2024) RM that has been open for over a month. Natg 19 (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:JTG Daugherty Racing#Requested move 22 November 2024

(Initiated 32 days ago on 22 November 2024) Pretty simple RM that just needs an uninvolved editor to close. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 17:40, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Williamsburg Bray School#Splitting proposal

(Initiated 27 days ago on 27 November 2024) Only two editors—the nominator and myself—have participated. That was two weeks ago. Just needs an uninvolved third party for closure. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Doing... BusterD (talk) 20:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 57 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

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Requesting Interaction ban between User:Eagles247 and User:Androzaniamy

Hi Folks. We currently have a situation bordering on harrassment by an administrator, Eagles247. Androzaniamy is a relatively new user, having signed up for Misplaced Pages on December 29, 2011. She has less than 900 edits to her name and I believe she is being harrassed by Eagles247. Don't get me wrong, Androzaniamy has made mistakes and is suffering from a mild WP:IDHT attitude, but I believe the Eagles's handling of the situation is both unfair and excessive. He has been asked to back off by both myself and another editor, but has refused.

Some diff's highlighting problems Eagles handling of the situation since he first commented on her talk page on 17 January (less than 2 months ago, when she had been editing for about 3 weeks).

Eagles has left 4 warnings and reverted her edits wholesale a number of times.
Taken the editor to ANI twice - 31 Jan & 3 Feb
He has personally deleted (or nominated for deletion) every article she has created. Similarly for redirects. (plus variations)
I would also say he has inappropriately used rollback against Androzaniamy, somthing I brought up with him.
Androzaniamy has complained about undue scrutiny from Eagles247 in particular twice.

I'm not questioning the deletions, I'm questioning the undue attention Eagles247 is placing on this new user. My involvement comes from WP:ADOPT, as she was trying to adopt other users but it was removed by Eagles. I offered to adopt her, but due to the amount of attention on her page, I believe my comments got lost in the noise. Reading her talk page is very revealing. I formally request an interaction ban between Eagles247 and Androzaniamy for a period no less than 6 months, to allow this new editor to actually learn the ropes without undue pressure. Worm · (talk) 10:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Eagles has made some mistakes in dealing with this user, including two misplaced "edit test" templates. I will, however, say that Androzaniamy is literally and without a doubt the most rude and obnoxious user I have had the displeasure of encountering on WP. She has treated helpful editors like trash (including WormTT, and I commend him for his objectivity considering how he's been treated). I really don't blame Eagles at all, even though his warnings were misplaced, as most of the time I wanted to rant on her talk page as well. Most editors are more forgiving than I am when it comes to rudeness, so please take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I would block her until she agrees to start treating other editors with a greater deal of respect. Just going through her talk page makes my blood boil a bit. Nformation 10:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

In my view, the only thing that should be done here is a WP:CIR block on Androzaniamy. T. Canens (talk) 11:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
And in case it isn't obvious, I oppose the proposed interaction ban as unnecessary given my preferred solution. T. Canens (talk) 17:31, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

T. Canens, I don't doubt that that might be required in the future, but at the moment I believe that is excessive. I'm not keen on WP:CIR blocks - not least because CIR is an essay. I say this as someone who has applied one in the last week.

Noformation is absolutely correct about her attitude and communication. I should point out that I've also asked PamD to step back here, and explained to Androzaniamy that she needs to change.

None of this changes the fact that 4 editors (Androzaniamy, PamD, Nat Gertler and myself) have seperately pointed out Eagles247 has overstepped a line here. He's an excellent editor and I empathise with his point of view but now is a time that he needs to walk away, and since he refuses to do so (and I do not believe Androzaniamy has reached the indef block point) - an interaction ban seems like the right choice Worm · (talk) 12:42, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there's any need for a formal interaction ban whatsoever. Perhaps at this point, Eagles needs to step back and let others handle things - they might even be too WP:INVOLVED at this point. We have had other admins in the past who simply needed to have a couple of colleagues tell them (sometimes not so politely) to back off. I'm making NO comments on the other editor at this point, as my advice is being given regardless of that (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:49, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

If he is willing to step back, that would be a much better solution than anything formal. His last responses implied he would not though. Worm · (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I've had some interaction with Androzaniamy as well and have been quite frustrated by the way she interacts with others. Unlike Noformation, I decided to descend into that tempest hoping to nudge her along in the right way. I gave her the benefit of the doubt as she is still quite new, but her WP:IDHT attitude is quite an issue. I left one last post on her talk page, which was probably somewhat uncivil but gentle prodding can only do so much. I have since unwatched her page as her interactions with Worm and others has left me in the same state as Noformation. I think a full blown requirement that she accept adoption is needed at some point in the not too distant future. Might I also suggest that someone ask Dream Focus to stop inflaming the situation? Blackmane (talk) 14:23, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The question of what should be done about Androzaniamy is a separate issue. No matter if she's good, improvable, or someone who should be gotten rid of, whatever the goal, the methods that Eagles247 has used are not the way to go about it. Having failed to force her off of Misplaced Pages by the official means (although even then with some dubious methods, using the fact that her pages' nominations for deletions as a reason when it included his nomination that was already clearly failing), he has chosen to use very inappropriate means, haranguing her with charges regardless of their accuracy - such as tagging as a test edit an addition on-topic and referenced information (if slightly misformatted, but Eagles has been here long enough to know what a test edit is and isn't) - with the obvious hope that he can simply annoy her off of Misplaced Pages. This is not helpful to either of the two editors - Eagles seems to be a generally good editor who has allowed this one person to get under his skin to an unreasonable degree - and more importantly, it is bad for the community as a whole, as good editors (plus me!) have to waste their time dealing with Eagles's inappropriate conduct and as the use of harassment technique makes us all look worse. And even if we agree with Eagles's goals, it clearly has not worked, and allowing something that is both degrading to the community and ineffective to continue serves no benefit. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I would support dysopping of User:Eagles247 - his overall interactions seem un-befitting of the standards we expect from an administrator. - Youreallycan 15:12, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Desysop is not the subject of this thread, thus voting for it is pretty much a non-issue. You can recommend a desysop as part of the discussion, but supporting is supporting an interaction ban (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Desyop is always an option, and is no big deal, it should be looked at in that way more. Hey dude, your raising a few issues, take a back seat with the administration for a while and come back in twelve months with a reconfirmation RFA. The User seems unable to comment over his personal bias from an administrative position of neutrality, this is a general problem with humanity, but users wanting to obtain and hold a perceived position of authority here should have the ability to aim for the higher ground. - Youreallycan 15:57, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

You would need consensus and ArbCom enforcement to do such a thing or a voluntary recall. Besides, this is not the point of the discussion and therefore would say this !vote carries no weight.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,078,266) 22:37, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Support interaction ban - My comment carries weight , if you reject it - I will move to the support the interaction ban . because of the no thanks comment he made on the 6th to good advice from Nat Geler and the fact that he just still doesn't seem to be getting it, a month voluntary? and then what, a return to the same? Youreallycan 01:25, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Have you seen even a few of Androzaniamy's contributions/messages here? If not, her talk page might be your first stop. Eagles 24/7 (C) 01:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_assistance/archive115#WILKEPEDIA_PAGE_being_Abused_by_Administrator._Keeps_deleting.21_PLEASE_HELP.21 documents a past action in which Eagles247 approach to resolving an issue seemed, in my opinion, to be overly agressive. The block mentioned at the end of the WQA thread was lifted a short time later another admin. Nobody Ent 15:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
It appears that what we have here is an editor with competence and auditory issues, and an admin who's gotten so frustrated at those facts that he's just continuing to beat his head against the wall rather than noticing that the bricks haven't even cracked. I don't think we need an interaction ban so much as we just need Eagles247 step back from the wall and realize that it's clear that Androzaniamy, rightly or wrongly, feels that he is attacking her, not trying to teach her. At that point where that happens, the intent of your actions ceases to matter, and it becomes, pragmatically, "this isn't working, even if it ought to, so why don't we try something else." So, Eagles, I would suggest you step away, take some painkillers for what's bound to be a humdinger of a wall-beating headache, and let other editors and admins handle the issue of Amy - there are plenty of eyes on her to handle any problems that arise. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

^Word. I'm nodding vigorously in agreement to everything Fluffernutter's encapsulated above and the solutions proposed.Jezebel'sPonyo 16:11, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, so did I (not often I find myself physically nodding while reading) - however, this only works if Eagles is willing to take that step back, as I mention above. Worm · (talk) 16:15, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Support interaction ban per Worm/Fluffernutter; additionally hearing the same message from multiple editors often has a greater power/persuasiveness then hearing it just from one. (It makes it harder for the recipient to believe it's a single person who has it "out for them" that's causing issues). Oppose desysop; lacking a much more detailed documented pattern of missteps from Eagles247 we're not anywhere close to that. Nobody Ent 15:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Is a formal interaction ban really necessary here? How about just asking the two to completely avoid each other? Everytime one sees the other's name just step away calmly? I'm sure Eagles247 was completely AGF at first, and taking measures to this extreme doesn't help. They need reasoned discussion, not a pile of admins arguing about whether Eagles247 should be desysopped. So I oppose an interaction ban. Rcsprinter (state) 16:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Eagles247 has been asked repeatedly to step back, and has refused to. That technique has failed. (and this is not an issue of both directions - Androzaniamy has not posted to Eagles' talkpage in over a month, and has never to my knowledge followed him to the pages he edits). We should stop pounding our head in that direction. The solution is hardly an egregious one; it's not putting too much of a burden on Eagles - he'd be banned from interacting with one user that he has shown an unwillingness to interact with appropriately, surely a very minor cost for such inappropriate activity from an editor wh, with his experience and admin status, has both the knowledge and responsibility to do better. --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Support interaction ban. Like Rcsprinter123, I would have preferred a voluntary avoidance, but this comment - which really took me by surprise - makes me feel as though Eagle just flat out refuses to heed the caution. However, I really don't think this will achieve Worm's goal of allowing the editor to "learn the ropes without pressure." If the purpose is to relieve Androzaniamy of pressure, this isn't going to do it. Wikipelli 17:12, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose any formal interaction ban. Eagles is one of the best young administrators the project has, and one of the most knowledgeable about project-wide policy who is also associated with WP:CFB and WP:NFL. The suggested desysopping is ridiculous; the suggested interaction ban is within the realm of discussion, but a far better solution would be for Eagles to simply agree to remove the subject editor's talk page from his watch list and agree to let one or more other admins monitor this very problematic editor. I have followed the user talk page discussions regarding this editor over the past month, and I have watched as Eagles' normally unflappable cool has gradually eroded. While I believe that Eagles has become involved, and needs to step back, I also believe that one or more other uninvolved admins need to step forward and bring some nee and objective eyes to this problem. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I will stay off Androzaniamy's talk page for a period of one month, so long as others are more aware of this user now. Some users here who have interacted with Androzaniamy have flat out taken her talk page off their watchlists due to the insurmountable frustration it causes them, which is really telling of this user's behavior. I will not be taking her off my watchlist, but before my piling on of warnings yesterday, I tried very hard not to comment there or take administrative action with any of her articles. I thank those who have defended my actions and see what I've had to deal with, and I'm ashamed this has gone to this extreme. Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:34, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Oppose interaction ban. I'm not going to make this long, but this user is going to be a frequent topic of discussion (that's the nicest way to put it). Sanctioning Eagle247 for "over scrutiny" is not going to solve the user's issue. They've declined adoption in favor of adopting another user themselves. I'd prefer to see this user adopted, but I think their threshold for civility would scare even our harshest civility enforcers and would give heart attacks to our frequent civility...pushers.--v/r - T P 20:45, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose I don't really think that this is necessary. Also Eagles247 has promised to stay off their talk page and I trust this user's word.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,077,651) 22:32, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Support interaction ban. Not just for a month, but permanently. Dream Focus 00:58, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

SUPPORT the interaction ban.

There is enough evidence presented here to dictate that such ban would be best if it was PERMANENT. Rationale: There are few things worse than being new in a community and having someone -- and someone with power within that community -- pressuring you at almost every turn. Besides, it is my view that Eagle247 is behaving overly zealous, as if "taming" this user was his commission from heaven (pardon the crude comparison, but it makes the point). His proposal to JUST stay off JUST her page for JUST one month, is too little too late: damage has already been done to the relationship. And his poor offer is another recent declaration that he does not understand he is not a solo admin of this encyclopedia and that the best judgment would had been if he had --voluntarily and long ago-- disassociated himself from this user or, at worse, if he had just asked an uninvolved admin's help AND leave it at that. But his effort to pursue this user continues to be relentless. My name is Mercy11 (talk) 15:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC), and I approve this message.

Strong Oppose Eagles is one of the best administrators and most active in the project.The issue here is more of User:Androzaniamy's disruptive editing rather than a personal or content dispute between two users and an interaction ban will not solve it .Please note it is the disruptive editing which it brought the User:Androzaniamy to the notice of admin Eagles and other users ,admins cannot be admonished for following the edits of disruptive users or vandals particularly when everyone seems to say the user is most likely to continue it and has been blocked recently and warned by multiple users. This would demotivate admins Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 17:18, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I just have to comment here. I'm in the 'oppose interaction ban' bucket, but I think you've misunderstood the point of those in support. The issue isn't that they feel Eagle24/7 has been at the forefront of addressing this user's disruption and has caused her stress; the issue from the supporters is that Eagle34/7 has gone above the threshold of administrator intervention with a disruptive user and has badgered and stalked his way into the harrassment side. It's sometimes a fine line and the supporters here feel he has crossed it and that has been detrimental to the development of a newbie and bitey. Just wanted to clarify.--v/r - T P 17:27, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Proposed mentorship or block for User:Androzaniamy

While there's some support up above for the idea of Eagles247 needing to back away from this issue, I also see a number of users noting that Androzaniamy (talk · contribs) is floundering around in a disruptive manner. The user has, as far as I can tell, refused offers of mentorship and adoption in favor of continuing to make her own way, which is becoming increasingly problematic. It's reached the point where I think the community needs to force this editor to make a decision: Due to her competence and assimilation issues, Androzaniamy must accept adoption by an experienced editor if she wishes to continue editing Misplaced Pages. If she refuses to do this, or fails to complete an adoption/mentorship program, she will be blocked until such time that she is able to demonstrate that she understands how to edit non-disruptively.

Support as second choice to indef block (below). The more I consider the situation and the evidence, the more I think mentorship is unlikely to crack this case. Support as proposer. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:44, 7 March 2012 (UTC) (edited to change the first-second ordering of my vote A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:12, 8 March 2012 (UTC))
Support this proposal. I find this resolution quite necessary given the circumstances. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 21:58, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Support Better option than above.--v/r - T P 21:59, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment/Question Can someone speak briefly about precedence for this kind of action and successes? I've had a number of interactions with this editor and my opinion has always been that, if left on her own, there would be an evolutionary process whereby she'd either be blocked via reverts and warnings, or she'd 'get it' on her own and start to contribute in a more productive way... or, honestly, get tired of it and go do something else.... Is the adopter selected (like a public defender for the indigent in the states), do we look for someone to step up and volunteer? Just curious about the nuts and bolts... Wikipelli 22:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know that there necessarily is precedent for something like this. I'm offering it now as pretty much the only other option I can think of to just blocking the user for disruption, because I think it's gotten to that point. Any mentor would have to volunteer themselves (Worm that Turned has previously, for example), I imagine, since we can't force an editor to mentor if they don't think they're suited for it. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 22:23, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

There certainly is precedent for forced mentorship, but the successes might be harder to quantify. Myself, I've mentored a few problematic users who were either unblocked due to my mentoring or avoided blocks due to my mentoring. More than half ended up blocked, 1 by me when I saw no further future for him. The rest didn't cause much more disruption, a few are doing very well. I'm not saying any have become admins, but some you wouldn't realise they had a problematic past. I certainly feel the mentoring I do is worth it. Worm · (talk) 08:56, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Precedent similar action: I have had no interaction with this user but have thoroughly read the user's talk page and the various ANI threads (this is at least the third) and to respond to Wikipelli's query, this situation reminds me totally of a previous user, Neptunekh2, who had competence issues, acted in a moody/paranoid fashion to offers of help and just generally didn't get it. This is compounded by Androzaniamy's impetuosity and out-and-out rudeness.

This links to the last ANI archive page (discussion #47) concerning this user, resulting in an indef block, and this page shows the number of ANI appearances (each thread involving innumerable discussions and lots and lots of people's time and energy). Despite User:The Blade of the Northern Lights voluntary mentorship, the user continued to act in their own idiosyncratic fashion and, in the end, everybody involved just lost patience with them. I get the feeling that the same pattern would just repeat here. CaptainScreebo 11:53, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to each.. Wikipelli 12:53, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Support It would seem that this is quite necessary as this user doesn't seem to know how things work around here.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,077,651) 22:32, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

She's passed the point of no return in my opinion, and taking up a hell of a lot of time of other editors. I know I'm supposed to AGF but right from one of her first edits, the message in this creation, I thought Trip Trap Trip Trap Trip Trap Trip Trap Trip Trap Trip Trap. Hard to tell. Fluffer, if a person is blocked how do they demonstrate they understand how to edit non-disruptively? Would you give her a holiday for a month (say) and tell her that if on her return she comes up with the same old disruption she is outta here indefinitely, no ifs, buts or maybes? That what you mean? Moriori (talk) 22:46, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

This speaks directly to my thinking.. SHE'S not taking up time with other editors.... Other editors are taking up time with her. If those editors (disclaimer: I'm one of them) stop with the back-and-forth, wouldn't WP's processes just run their course? Revert when necessesary, warn when appropriate, block if need be... and life goes on.. Wikipelli 23:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

And on, and on, and on and...... The problem won't go away unless it's fixed. BTW, I have notified User:Androzaniamy of this new proposal regarding her. Moriori (talk) 00:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC) Oops

Oppose. Just block Androzaniamy already and be done with her, we have wasted enough time. Salvio 22:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

as I mention earlier, I don't think she is at blocking point yet, though she is heading that way. I'd suggest we give it a month, which I thank Eagles for agreeing to. If she has not made noticeable progress by that point, I'll block her myself. That does not preclude her from being block by natural means or taking up mentorship to ensure she makes progress. Worm · (talk) 00:02, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment I am uncertain as to what side I take in this, but it should be noted that she has improved during her time here. She's now doing sourced edits that are reasonably relevant to the material. She has stopped spending her time giving herself barnstars. Some of the objections to her have been overstated, but I would say that we are still at the point where the amount of productive time she costs from other editors more than makes up from what we've gained from her contributions; I'm just uncertain how far we are along the line of getting her to be more of a gain than a drain. --Nat Gertler (talk) 00:28, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Point of information on above: She may have stopped awarding herself barnstars, but she retrieved them from the archive 2 days ago. PamD 08:20, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

This edit needs to be reviewed by someone other than me. Last mention from me of any of her edits for a month. Eagles 24/7 (C) 00:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- I've undone the edit - for one thing, the edit Androzaniamy made there misses the point of that section. For another, it's somewhat ironic, very concerning, and highly inappropriate that they'd made that edit to the WP:IDHT section while a ~~block~~ ANI discussion is underway at ANI. Hersfold 00:40, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Pretty provocative edit, yes, but not inappropriate in the sense you give because she made it before she was advised of this proposal. Moriori (talk) 00:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Further irony is that all she has been getting is gentle nudges and prods. No one has given her the mighty stick... at least not yet. Blackmane (talk) 01:07, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

True, it was made prior to the block discussion, but it was made after the interaction ban discussion had started. Hersfold 03:36, 8 March 2012 (UTC) Edit: Just re-read what I wrote and realize the issue now. Sorry, I've corrected the line above.

Oppose All problems are from people being overly aggressive towards her and just blowing things out of propulsion. Dream Focus 00:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Really? All problems are on the mass alone and the center of this problem holds zero responsibility? Feel free to volunteer to mentor her.--v/r - T P 01:11, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I have explained things properly and in a civil manner, unlike others I have seen acting rather hostile and condescending on her talk page. If someone makes a mistake, you can explain it to them, not just go on the attack. Example, she had already said she considered a certain word to be foul language, and didn't want to see it. Then someone posted that word on her talk page so she erased it but left the rest of the message there. This was an honest mistake, but some blew it out of proportion, and kept bringing it up, oh how horrible she was for editing someone's post, etc. etc. Simply saying you can erase an entire message from your talk page, but not just part of it, would've been enough. Dream Focus 01:22, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

The issue of refactoring comments led to my opening up an ANI discussion about her, and she was warned several times before the incident you describe, in which Androzaniamy tried to further censor "s*x" on her talk page. Eagles 24/7 (C) 01:28, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah yes, that's what it was. She erased that word instead of the entire post. You shouldn't be posting about that on a young girl's talk page anyway. Dream Focus 17:28, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Which policy says that? WP:Younger users, especially girls, should be treated differently than everyone else? The word was absolutely necessary in the context of the comment, which was to explain why something she labeled vandalism was not actually vandalism. Your suggestion that we treat this user differently because of her age and gender is entirely why she is considered disruptive by many in this discussion. FWIW, PamD posted that message to her talk page and had the sensibility to censor it enough to still understand the meaning. Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Support the proposal. It's way past time. Wikipelli 03:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Oppose, per Salvio. I think mentorship will be a complete waste of time, and we are bending way over backwards to accommodate a user whose very limited positive contribution to encyclopedia building is accompanied by absolutely ridiculous amounts of disruption. T. Canens (talk) 03:29, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Support in the hope that she will accept adoption or mentoring, listen to advice on her non-article-space edits, and go on to become an asset to the encyclopedia. She makes positive contributions to articles in and around her specialist area (UK children's tv), creates reasonable redirects (OK, I'm something of a redirect inclusionist), but gets it wrong far too often in other edits. I think she is making progress, though she needs to accept that she has still got a lot to learn. PamD 08:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
I would certainly support mentoring, but forced mentoring is often pointless. Whilst I do have time to mentor her in a voluntary capacity (ie, she comes to me if she has a problem and follows my adoption school which will teach her to handle problems on her own) - I don't have time follow her round and make sure every edit is perfect. What's more, we learn from mistakes, but only if we believe they are mistakes - if all the mistakes are pointed out by one editor, especially one who's help wasn't asked for, it can quickly appear provocative. I'd suggest allowing her one month to prove herself, taking on mentoring if she will, and if she isn't blocked within that period and is still bumbling along problematically, block her then. Worm · (talk) 08:40, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

OPPOSE mentorship or block for User:Androzaniamy.

Like my comment below RE: "Proposed indef block for User:Androzaniamy", under the current circumstances, namely, the Pending Status of the intricately-linked original topic of this noticeboard board matter above, now is not the time and, especially, ***not the place*** to present a petition for this " forced-mentorship or blocking" of either of these two users, and especially the newbie. If such petition was approved, it would be tantamount to just the opposite of WP:DBTN: a subcommunity-sactioned consensus to Do-bite-the newbie. The use of subsections (like this one) to a Main Petition, should be avoided as it, almost always, tends to distract attention from the Main Topic under consideration. Yes, Androzaniamy has many points against her, but this is not the time nor the place to deal with them. My name is Mercy11 (talk) 15:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC), and I approve this message.

Actually, this is the time and place to deal with it. This isn't about biting a newbie. This is about nipping a potential future issue in the bud. And AN is definitely the place to deal with such issues. I also support the requirement of a mentor for Androzaniamy. This isn't about being mean or unfair, this is about guidance. Mercy11, when you open the edit window, it says in big red letters up the top that this noticeboard is for "issues affecting administrators generally". Worm That Turns, an admin, is bringing up matters affecting Eagles 24/7, also an admin. If not on the Administrators' Noticeboard then what is "the place" to deal with such matters? This discussion concerning Androzaniamy is a subset of the matter concerning an admin and thus this place is exactly the place to discuss it. Blackmane (talk) 15:30, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I'd say Blackmane has got it spot on. When discussions are brought to AN, it is very common that the entire circumstances are looked at, and alternative solutions are discussed. I brought this here with the solution I thought necessary, given circumstances (which have since changed) - I personally don't feel an interaction ban is required any more as Eagles has accepted that this has gone further than it should and has voluntarily agreed to step back. Androzaniamy cannot carry on causing issues, I'm personally of the opinion that she may well improve with less "help" around, but mentorship, forced mentorship and blocks are all reasonable alternatives. Worm · (talk) 15:41, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Please see my reply to Mercy11's post in section below CaptainScreebo 16:53, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose (if I'm allowed): I get flustered and might do or say things that I would never normally say under pressure and thrive when left to my own devices. My teacher says so too at school. A mentorship might be nice and I have put myslf up for adoption but maybe from someone who doesn't already know me so they won't stereotype me falsely. PLEASE don't block me! Androzaniamy (talk) 18:08, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
That's the problem, no one on Misplaced Pages works "to their own devices". Invariably, everyone must discuss with other editors and it is the way you interact with others that is the focus of this proposal. You're learning well by posting questions on your user page and getting feedback from others. But you need to stay calm and not get your hackles up because people are hovering over you. Many newbies who come to Wiki and flounder around like you do often get scrutinised by the veterans here. Once you get used to that you'll begin to understand how to work well with others. This is the reason for a mentor, someone who will guide you through that process. Blackmane (talk) 11:20, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant just if I need to dicuss something then I will but not having others watching my edits and using my talk page a lot. Androzaniamy (talk) 18:19, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Unfortunately that is no longer up to you. The decision has been put to the community at large. Although the discussion is still on going, the proposal is you must be adopted or be blocked. Blackmane (talk) 18:35, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Support mentorship or block. I have followed Androzaniamy's progress for some weeks. She is making some progress with her work on Articles, but has huge problems interacting appropriately with other editors and making polite edit summaries. This is where she is falling down. I'm not sure mentorship will work given her inability to interact well but it's worth trying.--Harkey (talk) 18:26, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Note: She has requested to be adopted by Worm That Turned.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,579,420) 18:19, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Proposed indef block for User:Androzaniamy

We have wasted way too much time on this disruptive user, who simply is not getting it. I believe that mentorship will be a complete waste of precious volunteer time, time that could be used to engage in far more productive activity than trying to rehabilitate a disruptive user with minimal contributions to encyclopedia building. Why we are spending so much time trying to retain a user whose negatives far outweigh the positives, when established editors with a long history of positive contributions continue to burn out and leave the project, is entirely beyond me. Androzaniamy should be blocked until such time that she is able to demonstrate that she understands how to edit non-disruptively.

Support, as proposer. T. Canens (talk) 03:37, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Oppose as silly. How could she possibly demonstrate she understands how to edit if she can't edit? Nobody Ent 03:40, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- We ask this of vandalism-only accounts all the time. Showing an actual understanding of the problem with her previous behavior would be a good start. T. Canens (talk) 04:57, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
  - Nobody Ent, you might want to take a look at {{2nd chance}}, a response not-uncommonly given in response to block appeals. Hersfold 05:19, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Support as a ~~second choice~~ first choice. Androzaniamy has worn on the community's patience a whole lot in a very short period of time, and I think her benefits ~~while unmentored~~ don't outweigh her detriments. I have increasing doubts that mentorship will be useful for this editor, and I hesitate to force the community to go through motions that we're pretty sure won't work anyway. ~~If, however, the user will accept a mentor (and follow their advice) as I proposed above, I prefer that to this as a first step.~~ A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 05:01, 8 March 2012 (UTC) (edited to change the first-second ordering of my vote 15:12, 8 March 2012 (UTC))
Support While some, perhaps many, of the issues here could be addressed through mentorship, this user seems to be refusing to acknowledge any sort of problems on their part, a crucial first step to making such an approach feasible. In light of the numerous issues - competence, "I didn't hear that", unwillingness to work with the community - it's not worth attempting to spend time on this user until they demonstrate that it would be time well spent. There's something else about this situation that makes me uneasy, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Hersfold 05:19, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Oppose if someone can be found to adopt/mentor her, and if she accepts their guidance. But would support as 2nd choice option if the above fails. PamD 08:27, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Oppose I'd oppose this for now, she's a new user learning the ropes and has made progress since she started. The amount of attention she's had would make it difficult for any user to operate. My thoughts is to give her a little time editing without feeling harrassed, and if she remains confrontational and problematic then block her. Worm · (talk) 08:29, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Oppose This doesn't seem necessary yet. This user doesn't appear to be purposefully disruptive.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,163,768) 10:46, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Note: One of her userboxes does say she is seeking adoption by another user. She does appear to be open to it.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,163,952) 10:48, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Maybe so, but she's had 2 offers of adoption on her talk page and hasn't accepted either. Worm · (talk) 11:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Well I would first consider mandatory mentorship before indefinite block. Remember blocks are supposed to be preventative, not punitive. If this user is open to adoption but refuses offers, then forcing this user to search for a mentor to help her edit better rather than stopping her edits altogether is a better choice.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,192,263) 14:49, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Support per my comment above. I think that the user has received sufficient attention, offers of guidance, help and mentorship (WTT's offer dates from February 15th) that she would have at least considered being taken under someone's wing if she were not so self-opinionated. I also find it hard to reconcile the user's use of language and discourse and their (apparent) understanding and ability to quote wiki-policy when it suits them, with their claim to be a pre-adolescent. Oh and you can add trouting users for no good reason, rudeness, IDHT, obstinately insisting on wanting to adopt users with only a few weeks experience and so on. CaptainScreebo 12:48, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Support As second option to the mentoring/indef block proposal above.--v/r - T P 13:10, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Support as first choice. As I've said above, enough time has been wasted already; if this proposal does not pass, we'll be back here in a month... Salvio 13:13, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

OPPOSE indef block for User:Androzaniamy.

Under the current circumstances, namely the Pending Status of the intricately-linked matter above, now is not the time and, especially, ***not the place*** to present a petition for blocking either of these two users -- and especially the newbie. If such petition was approved, it would go beyond WP:DBTN, becoming tantamount to a subcommunity-sanctioned consensus to Do-bite-the newbie. My name is Mercy11 (talk) 15:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC), and I approve this message.

Comment It would appear that you have not waded through this user's talk page or looked at their comments, diffs etc. on other people's pages, I would like to suggest that this user's behaviour could be used to write a new WP essay Newbies, don't bite the helping hands that are reaching out to you. If you look at the following examples: issuing a 3RR warning for ONE revert of two test edits; BITING a user and issuing a level 4 vandalism warning for a couple of unremarkable edits; trouting admins and awarding bad faith stalker badges and generally responding to people in a rude and impetuous manner, maybe you would like to revise your opinion about who is biting who? Most people have shown huge amounts of patience in trying to explain diverse aspects of policy, wiki-etiquette etc. to this user. CaptainScreebo 16:47, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I will note that biting behavior on her part is explained in some part - albeit only in part - by some of what she's been subjected to, not just Eagles247 behavior discussed elsewhere, bot also some genuine vandalism mixed in with those things she falsely described as vandalism. Not that she was the wisest editor before then, and not that some editors didn't bend over backwards (occasionally, inappropriately so) to treat her nicely. --Nat Gertler (talk) 18:13, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment: not sure about that "genuine vandalism": her userpage said "These are my lovely userboxes. Feel free to add more or copy some.", so adding a userbox as invited is hardly vandalism, though re-adding it multiple times is perhaps user-inspired vandalism. PamD 22:46, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment: Even if you accept that a message inviting userboxes is inviting insults, that message was gone before the second edit linked to above, and after A had clearly expressed that she felt the previous addition of that userbox was vandalistic. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose this in favor of mentorship as above. The block is built into that proposal if mentorship does not yield results or if the editor does not accept mentoring.Wikipelli 18:11, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

This block will stop me from editing articles and yes I have made mistakes on them but not enough for a block. Please consider letting me be and I promise with both my hearts that I will try to be a better behaved person. Androzaniamy (talk) 18:19, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose for now in favour of mentorship, particularly regarding interactions with other editors. I'm not sure she has the maturity to know how rude she is being. She may be just copying others, trying to be "Smart". (There's a lot of it about!!)Harkey (talk) 18:32, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose indef - support giving WTT a chance to work his magic once again. (he's got a good track record). — Ched : ? 21:53, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Androzaniamy has already declined Worm's offer of adoption, and has already told him off in giving future advice . Eagles 24/7 (C) 22:01, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Support Yikes, I remember reading about this user at least a month or so ago. We're still here? Flip rejection of mentorship as recently as 5 days ago despite blindingly obvious need for mentorship suggests that that route is not an option; which is a shame, because it'd otherwise be an obvious and viable option. Readily apparent that editor wishes to but is for whatever reason incapable of contributing without disrupting. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 03:28, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Support Editor was given the option of mentoring, twice and flat-out snidely refused. It appears the only reason they wish so now is to avoid the obviously inevitable block. Complete inability to edit within the norms and policies of this community. Support indef, with full extension of WP:OFFER with the standard 6 months working at another Wikimedia project and requisite adoption at time of unblock. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:11, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

To both of you guys, I would say a forced mentor ship would be the better option because the conditions state that failure to get a mentor will result in a block but if they do get a mentor, the block will be avoided as long as she does what the mentor expects of them. I would offer mentorship myself if I had more experience on Misplaced Pages. There is no doubt there are some policies I lack knowledge of but, there is one thing I know and that is WP:BLOCK clearly states that blocks are supposed to be preventative and not punitive. I would consider this block to be punitive because it is apparent in this situation that an alternate route to fixing this problem is available and that immediately blocking this user, who may mean well by what I am seeing, that clearly doesn't know that what they are doing is disruptive does not go well in my book. If I were that user, I would be driven away as soon as I were blocked. Being indefinitely blocked is not a good feeling and believe me I had first hand experience on that one.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,351,764) 11:08, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

It's the second time in two days that you've harped on the merry meme that blocks are not punitive. While I happen to agree that blocks must be preventative, in this case you are basically missing the whole point of the policy. This block would most definitely be preventative: it would prevent this user from actively disrupting Misplaced Pages any further. Misplaced Pages does not work on a turn-the-other-cheek basis out of fear that we might end up biting the occasional disruptive newbie; if an editor is disruptive and has been repeatedly afforded the chance of mending his or her ways but, through refusal or sheer inability, has failed to do so, the only option is a block until such a time as he or she shows he or she is able to edit in a constructive and collegial fashion. In the end, we are all here to build an encyclopaedia. If one cannot work to that end, the only choice is to remove him or her from the project until he or she can. Salvio 11:42, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

...and from the well-known essay on Mentorship: "Involuntary mentorship has a very poor track record and is not recommended". For example, the mentee can feign acceptance and do squat all with the advice and assistance provided. The best form of mentorship is by doing, and as this editor shows no desire to "do" according to norm, then go elsewhere and learn to get along with others, then come back when you're willing to "do" (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:53, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from, but, of there's even the slightest chance that mentoring will get her on the right track even reluctantly, I would rather go for it.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,363,273) 12:44, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose per Cyberpower, Mercy11 and Nat Gertler.--Gilderien Talk|Contribs 22:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Support As per Captain_Screebo,Timotheus Canens and Hersfield the consensus as per this section and preceding section almost all favour indef block or Mentorship if it fails then indef block but the user has declined mentorship twice as Bwilkins and WTT rightly say involuntary mentorship will not work for her.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 06:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Oppose - actually - according to my quick assessment, it was eight all before your comment. Prefer mentorship, or just letting the natural course of events through the users editing to occur. Youreallycan 10:33, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I was going to close this as no consensus - Its unfair to leave it open longer when its clear that users are split on this. Please find another solution and close this. Youreallycan 22:08, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Note: She has requested to be adopted by Worm That Turned.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,579,504) 18:20, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
The threat of an indefinite block changed her mind? No surprise there, more time-wasting to ensue. We'll be back here soon enough. Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:31, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Maybe, maybe not. It could be because of the threat or she could've finally realized that a mentor is necessary. Let's see what happens. I'm willing to see this through and commit to observing this.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,581,506) 18:34, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Have you checked out any of Androzaniamy's talk page conversations yet? I'm confident they will change your mind. Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:40, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
I have, otherwise, I wouldn't have participated here. I'm believer of second chances and it's possible she turned over a new leaf and it's possible she is doing it reluctantly. What matter's to me is that she is taking personal initiative on her own.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,583,559) 18:49, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment Editor has agreed to adoption. There is not sufficient consensus for an block. Opinions vary as to whether adoption is a solution or a waste of time; however further discussion is unlikely to change any editor's mind at this point. Nobody Ent 18:57, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

You've already made your opinion of this proposed block, which is why I reverted your attempted close. The editor did not "agree" to adoption, she only "agreed" to avoid a block. Eagles 24/7 (C) 19:00, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter why they accept a mentor, just that they do. - There is not even any consensus for a block - there is as much consensus that you acted poorly and harassed the user as there is to block anyone - your continued involvement in this reflects badly on you, it would be better if you avoided further commenting and further reverting. Youreallycan 19:05, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

It's only been two days, it's not a SNOW situation, and there's no pressing need for a closure now, much less one by an involved non-administrator (we have a well established process for discussion closure). There's no harm in letting discussion play out. Swarm 19:22, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

We do??? I would sincerely appreciate link to documentation of well established process. (Previous request here and some discussion here) Nobody Ent 22:54, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Support, obviously. Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:58, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
I think it would be best you remain uninvolved in this discussion.—cyberpower (Chat)(WP Edits: 521,586,709) 19:10, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Support - as Bwilkins says, they've been given two offers of adoption already, and they were told to pick one weeks ago. Now that a block is being discussed, they're obviously running back to Worm. Although I have the utmost confidence in WTT as a mentor, I think it would be an utter waste of time in this particular instance. Swarm 19:16, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Comment - it may be a waste of my time, but I'd say it's my time to waste! I fully intend to accept Androzaniamy's request. She can see here that the community is almost at the end of its tether, which hopefully will focus her on improving. I'm more than willing to summarily block an editor if I see no chance of improvement, and I would do so in heartbeat here too. Worm · (talk) 19:27, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

If my only objection was that I thought mentorship would be ineffective, I'd still oppose a block in favor of mentorship. I have complete faith in you as a mentor, and as a sysop who will block if need be. My objection is based on the fact that I don't believe this user even wants mentorship. The problem is that they had several weeks to voluntarily choose a mentor, and didn't do so. Instead, they run to a mentor after the community began discussing a block. It appears so completely disingenuous, that I don't see the point. So it's not so much that I think you'd be wasting your time with a good faith editor who wants to improve. It's more that mentorship isn't an arbitrary get out of jail free card. Swarm 02:31, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Support Block her and get this over with. She has shown that she is unwilling to see the light. While I highly respect WTT as a colleague, I personally think that he is wasting his time here. --Guerillero | My Talk 02:01, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
There are some very able and highly intelligent people who function really well in the particular fields that they are attracted to. However, these people find it difficult to function in the socio-linguistic area, particularly in absorbing the different registers. Misplaced Pages has a confusing number of registers, Article pages (where, say, pop music pages have a different register from history), Article talk pages, User pages, User talk pages,policies,etc. There are various degrees of camaraderie between individuals and groups where editors use different ways of communicating (such as fish slapping).The people I am talking about find humour problematic as it relies on shared social understanding. They become flustered when they have to deal with a lot of people and are particularly likely to react in ways that many would consider to be badly when they feel threatened. Does Misplaced Pages have a place for these people as editors? They have as much or little to offer in their chosen fields as anyone else. Maybe it would be better to show some understanding, back off, let WTT try mentoring and give him our fullest support.--Harkey (talk) 11:37, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Back off the Hammer

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

RfC opened at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/TenPoundHammer Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:21, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

TenPoundHammer (talk · contribs) is well-known for his huge count of edits. Most of these are deletions: either blocks of content, or articles. The article deletions are getting out of hand and are based on an increasingly dubious interpretation of policy. This post is as a result of this WP:CSD#G1 List of most highly populated countries, a 30k article with > 60 references. I make no comment on the quality, suitability or future deletion of this article - which is now at AfD. In fact, I've past history with the article's creator (this is how I saw the speedy notice) and I've called for many of their additions to be deleted on quality grounds myself. What is clear though is that articles of this size, on ostensibly appropriate topics, are not suitable for speedy deletion. They're just too complicated to judge so expeditiously. In this case, it's not only a speedy but a G1 as "patent nonsense". To quote the last summary point of that rationale, "In short, if you can understand it, G1 does not apply." There is no way that G1 can be applied to this article, even if we choose to delete it very soon. Nor is this a new editor who might not understand such things.

This editor calls to delete what looks like an article a day. We have no limits on such, there is no good reason to have one - a valid deletion is a valid deletion. Yet looking at this vast list (which I admit, isn't easy) they're an unedifying stream of dubious judgement.

WP:Articles for deletion/Wizard (band) (German heavy metal) seems to have been based on searching Gnews (relevance?) by one very common word and not finding the wheat for the chaff, thus claiming that no sources exist. It took me two minutes, and using a band member's name, to find sources. Perhaps WP:BEFORE was indeed followed, but in that case the Hammer's google-fu is clearly weak. There's also a mis-use of WP:BAND#1 to claim that interviews (any and all of them) are not sources, despite what WP:BAND#cite_note-selfpromo-0 actually states. We also see claims like, "If the band's article is deleted, the albums can be speedied via A9." I would remind the editor that the function of an encyclopedia is not to act as a score-keeping mechanism for how many articles an editor can manage to have deleted.
WP:Articles for deletion/Xargs seems to be a clear case of "If I don't understand the topic, it's not notable". Nor is "xargs" a terribly difficult word to search for.
WP:Articles for deletion/List of April Fool's Day jokes (2nd nomination) was one I expected to be a clear deletion as listcruft. Yet it's not - it's quite reasonably sourced (for most items at least) and even if we pruned heavily, there is obviously a list there of large-scale incidents with clear secondary coverage.

Does it matter? After all, the barrage of keeps for April Fool's Day shows the robustness of WP in action. Yes, it does matter - because for everything that happens openly at AfD, there are others like WP:Articles for deletion/Stained glass windows of St Pauls, Clifton that happen "under the hood" and invisibly. In this case, a speedy deletion was applied to an article already at AfD just hours after that AfD and with no time for any secondary discussion. Should that article have been kept? I would argue that its deletion was primarily WP:BITEy, where a new editor has created St Pauls, Clifton, Bristol (itself targeted for deletion) and because they created what should have been sections of an article as separate articles, these were deleted (and deleted rather than the rather more obvious merge). WMF tell us regularly that new editors should be encouraged, and this sort of response does nothing to encourage that. Incidentally, there are few Victorian churches in affluent areas that aren't notable, just on their architectural merits and the coverage that inevitably generates.

I'm bringing this to AN because RFC/U is both complex and toothless, but also because of the volumes involved. I consider that TenPoundHammer is acting outside of generally supportable behaviour, either through policy or consensus, and that because of the volume involved this requires a substantial and speedy response. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

No, this doesn't require "a speedy response." If it did, ANI would be the more appropriate venue anyway. TPH is one of our more prolific deletionists, but so far that hasn't been a bad thing. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:37, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

WP:TL;DR 76.118.180.210 (talk) 17:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Once again, AN is not a place for dispute resolution. I'm sorry you have no faith in our established systems such as RFCU, (despite your claims some real changes have come out of some of those discussions) but that doesn't mean you get to use this board for whatever purpose you want it to serve. This is obviously not an issue "affecting administrators generally " and should not be here. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:23, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think this is a good point, RFC/U has in my experience produced useful results and is clearly the most appropriate venue. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:49, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
What they said. I won't disagree that I did make a couple mistakes here, but filibustering at ANI won't get you anywhere. There's nothing an admin here can do. Ten Pound Hammer • 18:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I have restored the Stained glass windows of St Pauls, Clifton article, Jimfbleak does quite a few out of policy speedy deletes. I have merged content to St Pauls, Clifton, Bristol. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:59, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

In that case, then perhaps he needs to comment here. Admins are supposed to be the line of defense against improper deletions. I have notified him. DGG ( talk ) 22:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

RfC/U is that way. Seriously. If it is that much of a problem getting a RfC/U certified. Even if TPH doesn't respond that's just fine, because the more advanced (and binding) forms of Dispute resolution really expect that a RfC/U has already commenced and the conduct has not improved since that point. Hasteur (talk) 22:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes a discussion here or at AN/I is a good substitute. The relevant policy is NOT BURO. In this particular matter, a number of TPM's more questionable speedies have been deleted by Jimfbleak, so perhaps this would be a good place to discuss it . not as a dispute, but a problem. DGG ( talk ) 23:37, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

From my experience, unless administrative action or some form of topic ban is likely, many people will not bother to discuss it here. So I'm not sure that's accurate. Nil Einne (talk) 04:49, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I was asked to comment here. I suppose there are three points. Firstly, the fact that an article is at AfD or prodded does not, I think, automatically preclude SD, the most obvious example being where the text is copyright. Secondly, I admit that on the windows article I may have been over zealous, I'll try to be more careful in future. Thirdly, I always respond to all but the most abusive postings on my talk page (or email) to explain why I have deleted an article, and to review my decision if necessary. What I cannot do is is get other editors to raise issues with me first, instead of going straight to this page. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:37, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- Then we should give 24 hour blocks to anyone who files an ANI without trying to resolve the issue directly with the other editor, and 12 hour ones for anyone who fails to notify a user they have reported :-P (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:44, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
This discussion is the wrong way around. There's almost nothing on User talk:TenPoundHammer and lots of text on this noticeboard. It should be the converse. I say this as one of the participants in Project:Articles for deletion/Xargs. Uncle G (talk) 00:39, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- There are several discussions on TPH's talk page related to inappropriate CSD, PROD and AFD nominations:
- —Ruud 19:04, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
While this isn't the right place, we're being too hard on the user here. TPH's use of "filibustering" is particularly egregious, but really the time taken to put this all together (with diffs even) should be given a little more respect. And "Too long, Didn't read" is appalling. If you're not here to read and think a little bit before chipping in, then why are you here? - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 09:57, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
ANI could be proper I guess... but TPH has such a huge list of edits it's pretty damn easy to cherry pick out a few CSDs and run with it. Is he being disruptive? Not from anything I've seen here. I don't agree with that speedy, or even an AfD (by someone else btw) in the examples, but that doesn't mean TPH is doing anything there that indicates the need for admin action. I suggest this conversation be closed, lest it become some proxy war over inclusionism/deletionism. Shadowjams (talk) 21:14, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

There are two problems with anybody doing too much deletion or patrolling. Fist, there's a great temptation to go too fast and get careless. The other, which applies to even those like myself who are in general inclusionsts, is there is so much spam and nonsense that the attitude starts to change from "what can be rescued" to "what can be deleted."

and TPH s indeed doing something that needs admin attention. He is causing us excessive work in correcting the mistaken deletion notices. But much worse, he is notifying new users that their articles are unacceptable when this is not the case. Most people who get such notices never return to us, and the maintenance of WP depends or our at least being able to replace the editors who inevitably leave. He is thus having a negative effect here. If he went slower, others could do the patrolling , but nobody can compensate for the editors he loses us. DGG ( talk ) 22:00, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/TenPoundHammer Andy Dingley (talk) 02:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Right. Now that an RFC/U is open, are we done here? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:07, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Community ban for Papa Smooch

It looks like nobody is challenging this ban. I've tagged the user as banned and listed it up on the banned users list. Minima © (talk) 21:07, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Papa Smooch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The socks say it all. I was going to just tag it as de facto, but let's formalize it.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:03, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Support Also, is there any connection to Feathers Trial (talk · contribs)/Barackbush (talk · contribs)? HurricaneFan Alt ≈≈ (bad revert?) 16:25, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Support. Abusively using this many accounts warrants a ban from the project. dci | TALK 22:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
I support this as a simple matter of principle. TheRealTeln (talk) 02:30, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Revert requested on Template:Cleanup

Resolved

There is a consensus (Template_talk:Cleanup#Notification) to revert this edit on protected template, but we need uninvolved admin Bulwersator (talk) 23:43, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Done CharlieEchoTango (contact) 00:16, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Bulwersator (talk) 00:21, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

RFC/U deletion

Resolved

It seems to me that Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/RHaworth should be deleted seeing as it's been around since 17 Jan and hasn't been filled out or certified. Apologies if this isn't the correct place to leave such a request. Jenks24 (talk) 12:52, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Done HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:47, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Jenks24 (talk) 13:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

possible violation of Misplaced Pages:Bot_policy specifically WP:MASSCREATION

Please see Special:Contributions/M.casanova mass creating film pages all with content directly copied from with most having no indications of notability, other than inclusion in this particular database. Will notify right after this Gaijin42 (talk) 17:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I see no violation, he is neither a bot nor is he creating copyright violations due to the disclaimer at the bottom "This work by FCAT Festival de Cine Africano de Tarifa is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License." and he is crediting them in his creation of articles. I endorse his creation of articles on African films which are poorly covered, but I would like to see a few more sources adde dto them. I think a discussion would have been more productive first before a mass AFD you've now gone for.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I am not claiming copyright violation, I saw the release. That being said, I do question the value of an article which is 100% copied from another site. We do not need to be a database of african films,- obviously such a database already exists to be copied from. We have had the discussion before regarding how automated one needs to be before even manual action is encroaching upon the masscreation policy. Regarding the discussion, it started somewwhat organically, as I was doing new page patrol, doing individual nominations. When I noticed a large number of similar articles, I moved to this venue. I think "mass delete" is somewhat of a judgement call considering the incredibly massive number of articles created by this user using this process. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:34, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

African films are very poorly covered on wikipedia. However many he creates its likely to still pale in comparison to our coverage of US/UK films. I believe he is addressing systemtic bias, but his articles ideally need another source or two to prove notability.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:38, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I would certainly agree that any film which can have 2 or 3 sources found would meet the notability requirements (and I would perhaps allow for lesser sources considering average state of african press etc.) However, the systematic bias in this case I think is largely a reflection of systematic bias in the media. While lack of coverage of African films by the press and awards may certainly be a real issues, it cannot be wikipedias place to fix that issue. We have notability standards, content which does not meet those standards should not be in. In our earlier debates regarding your mass creation of articles, you used the argument that natural locations, villages, etc were inherently notable - an argument I reluctantly acceded to. However, we have very clear criteria of what makes a film notable, and if we ignore those criteria for this instance we might as well delete all such policies and let everyone greate an article about their high school band, or in the examples you provided in our earlier discussion - about every pokemon char, episode of American tv, or character etc, . Gaijin42 (talk) 17:43, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't remember any previous discussion as its been a very long time since I mass created anything. I don't believe in inherent notability, but I believe certain traditionally encyclopedic topics almost always certainly meet requirements for an encyclopedia and the vast majority can be expanded and sourced, I have a 99.9% success rate with AFDs thrown at me and proved this. Films are not really traditional encyclopedic subjects so the notability at times may be questionable. I haven't researched the series of films the editor has created, but the screening at a major African festival at least is something in terms of assessing notability. I think you'll find a few of them maybe can be expanded using other sources. Why not ask the editor to try to expand a few with other sources?♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:50, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is really an Admin issue (at least not anymore) but since this is the place designated for discussion, I'd like to echo Dr. Blofeld's suggestion that rather than lots of AfDs right now, a more constructive route here would be to withdraw the AfDs for the time being and meanwhile suggest to M.casanova that he might slow down a bit on the creation of new articles, and spend some of that time on additional sourcing for each article. I took a look at one of them, a Mozambican film, and I was finding some possible references in Portuguese, complicated further because the film seemed to have several different titles. It's unquestionably the case that African film is underdocumented, so I have to think that what M.casanova is trying to do here could be a positive contribution to the encyclopedia. --Arxiloxos (talk) 18:13, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it is an admin issue... there's policy violation going on here... maybe no need for some sanction but it's appropriate at WP:AN. Shadowjams (talk) 21:08, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

These all look like valid articles in an area that's not very well covered. Endorse the point about slowing down and taking a bit more time to establish notability so we don't end back here. Lugnuts (talk) 19:31, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, slow down. Let's at least give a feigned tribute to the virtue of quality as a complement to quantity.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:31, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

There is a mass creation policy and whether you wrote a perl script to do it or you're fast with copy-paste, this is in a semi-automated fashion and the bot policy should apply. We have that policy so that these sorts of mass creations are preemptively examined because when they're wrong (or even if they're right) they create more work and trouble for everybody else. This isn't a question of notability so much as it is having a workable system.

I'm not so sure that these creations deserve a block... although I do think there's some policy violation going on here. I also don't think Blofeld's response addresses the real issue. Even if this is an under-represented area of the encyclopedia, mass creations that are copied from a source or otherwise generated in some automated way, are semi-automated for purposes of the bot policy. The subsequent edits appear to be automated as well, though I'm not sure. Shadowjams (talk) 21:06, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I picked one of them, La Robe du temps, and pumped it up a bit. I did not find much critical commentary, but certainly it has been noted by various independent sources. My guess is that almost all of the films featured at the African Film Festival of Cordoba are in fact notable. The articles just need a bit of work. I fully concur with Arxiloxos - the AfD's should be cancelled, since they show lack of prior research. M.casanova should slow down a bit and improve the existing entries before making more, but no harm is being done. Aymatth2 (talk) 21:24, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I note without comment that several of the articles have .fr and .es equivalents started by the same editor. I see no significant comments in .es but some discussion about the FCAT license and about failure to respond to warnings in fr:Discussion utilisateur:M.casanova. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:19, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Copy/pasting is definitely not a semi-automated policy; you have to do all of the work yourself. There is no good reason to complain about this series of article creations unless you object to the content itself. I understand the issues with lack of sourcing; I'm not addressing that at all because I'm not sure what to think about it. Nyttend (talk) 12:39, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I want to point out the wonderful work done by Aymatth2 on La Robe, clearly indicating the notability of that film. I have withdrawn the AFD nomination for that particular film. However, I think that example proves my point - There is such a thing as a provably notable african documentary, which meets our RS/V/Notability/NFilm standards. The ones that do not meet that standard should not be being created. Especially not 1000s at a time with no original content being provided. Misplaced Pages is not a directory. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:52, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

From my pov, African cinema is a neglected area where we do need to improve coverage, but that the creator of these stubs is strongly encouraged to spend some time finding other sources for the films, independent of the festival website. Gaijin42 and others are of course free to continue to tag articles for notability or nominate them for deletion if he wishes, but I would ask that he do the necessary WP:BEFORE work prior to doing so. As for me, I'll add some sources , when I have the time. There is a finite number of films selected to this or any festival, and I imagine some of films already have articles. I wonder how big an impact this is actually going to have? Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:05, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- A follow up note: I've looked through a handful of the nominated articles and most, so far, are easily referenced though a combination of Google Search and Translate, with bona fide foreign language RS. The deletion nominations by Gaijin42 appear to me to show a lack of WP:BEFORE work, in the cases I've looked at. I think the mass deletion nomination is more disruptive than the creation of the articles and I ask that these deletions please cease until the matter is settled. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 00:15, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

New Page Triage

Hey guys :). As previously mentioned in a few places, the Foundation has started work on our new patrolling software: New Page Triage. I'm posting updated specifications in a few hours, and I'd really advise everyone who is interested in page patrolling to head over to the talkpage, comment on the suggestions on the page already and the additional ideas the community has come up with.

We've also got an office hours session next Tuesday, the 13th, at 19:00 UTC (that's 12:00 PST, for the west-coast Americans around ;p). If you can make it, it's on IRC in #wikimedia-office. If you can't, drop me a line on my talkpage and I'm happy to send you the logs once we're done :). Regards, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:43, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Steven Rubenstein

, Steven Rubenstein, is I believe user:Slrubenstein - if so I must regretfully report that there are credible reports of his decease. Details are sketchy right now but anyone who knows Steven is requested to contact his friend Greg Ruf, I can pass on any messages but please use email not my talk page. Guy (Help!) 00:17, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

For anyone who has just seen this, there is information on his Facebook page, reported by his friend Greg Ruf, who has left his contact details there. Unfortunately, it does seem to be credible. It is very recent, and there are no details yet. It is devastating. Steve was a great Wikipedian and a wonderful human being. SlimVirgin 00:58, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

What, no! Fuck! I just talked to him last week. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:04, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I know, it doesn't seem possible. SlimVirgin 01:21, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

This is such sad news...Steve was such a great person..he will be missed!! Dreadstar ☥ 02:10, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

This is a big shock. I can only echo what Magnus and others have written. Mathsci (talk) 08:31, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Sad news indeed. He will truly be missed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:07, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm hesitant to divert this thread from condolences and expressions of sadness, but if we're satisfied that Steven is indeed sadly deceased, is it time to implement the procedures at Misplaced Pages:Deceased Wikipedians/Guidelines? According to that guideline, we should remove his admin rights and fully protect his userpage, possibly with a note explaining that he is deceased. Perhaps somebody who knew him would like to write something tasteful, and the page can be left unprotected for a few hours? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:23, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I just posted over at WP:BN to ask for a crat to deal with the admin tools, I agree the rest of it should be left to users who knew him best and/or are familiar with what his family would want. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:53, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Done My sympathies to his family. MBisanz 20:59, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

IP hopping through an entire range

We've recently had an editor start adding unsourced musical equipment trivia to articles related to The Beatles. He IP hops for each edit - sometimes even within the same article: , .

He is also edit warring: , , , . Radiopathy •talk• 15:07, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

It appears the ISP functions to "promote interoperability for wireless data subscribers" so it could be a coffee house or something. You might want to get the high-profile Harrison article semi'd for awhile at WP:RFPP due to the on-going warring, but if their other edits are over a wide range of song articles, you're probably stuck playing whack-a-mole for now -- unless an admin determines a range block is feasible. For anyone curious, these IPs geolocate to the US, so it isn't the Russian EL spammer. Rgrds. --64.85.221.180 (talk) 17:05, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Unblock request for User:TrEeMaNsHoE

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive232#Proposed unban/unblock of User:TrEeMaNsHoE was bot-archived a couple of days back (though I have not been on-wiki during that time), but there was a unanimous agreement to lift the ban on User:TrEeMaNsHoE. If another admin would like to unblock at earliest convenience, that would be great. --MuZemike 17:01, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Beeblebrox said "conflicted" and Crossmr "oppose". That's closer to "lukewarm", not "unanimous" 91.125.155.37 (talk) 19:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

My mistake, then. I will restore the entire discussion below. --MuZemike 19:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles

Per a motion at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification:

The text in WP:ARBPIA section "Further remedies" is modified from "Clear vandalism, or edits by anonymous IP editors, may be reverted without penalty" to "Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Reverts of edits made by anonymous IP editors that are not vandalism are exempt from 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring." As identical text is used in an active sanction related to The Troubles case, the same substitution of wording shall be made there.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Tiptoety 19:02, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Discuss this

Proposed unban/unblock of User:TrEeMaNsHoE

I received this email yesterday from banned user User:TrEeMaNsHoE (copied below with permission from TrEeMaNsHoE):

Dear User: MuZemike,
I am User: TrEeMaNsHoE. I was emailing you to request that my indefinate block be uplifted. I was blocked in November 2009 for participating in sockpuppetry. At the time, I did not know it was wrong, however was having trouble expressing myself and my talkpage was thus revoked. I continued to open new accounts, because I thought that if I was using one it would be okay. Now, I know that what I had been doing was wrong, and fully promise to never engage in sockpuppetry again and to abide by wikipedia's guidelines. In September 2011, I was told that if I refrained from socking for six months, my unblocking would be re-reviewed. If unblocked, I promise to use this and only this account, and look forward to editing and learning new things from the wikipedia experience. Thank you for your time,
User: TrEeMaNsHoE

Currently, he hasn't been causing any additional abuse that has led to his ban for at least over a year. I prefer not to unblock without community discussion since the ban back in 2009 was established by community consensus. I will jump out and say that I support an unban and unblock. Thoughts? --MuZemike 23:04, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Conflicted Because I am generally a big believer in second chances, but this user already had theirs and spit in the faces of those (including me) who gave it to them. See the page history of User talk:PlannerPenBackpack. I extended WP:OFFER to this user, to give them a chance to prove they could reform, and they made it less than a week before being caught socking again. Just going away doesn't prove they can be a productive member of the community here, although I'll grant it's a start. I'm just not sure we can trust this user after so many lies in the past. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:52, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Cautious Support per MuZemike. I can understand Beeblebrox's concerns, however it's been more than 2 years since the "OFFER", and it seems that this user has not misbehaved in quite some time. Those who know me realize that I am much more for bringing people in to the project, than I am for pushing them out. I'll also add that a couple years can bring a world of difference to a person's outlook on things - especially in cases of younger folks. People do change, and I think we should give them a chance to. If they misbehave again - the block button isn't all that far away. — Ched : ? 02:46, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Conditional support as long as he has to stick to the TrEeMaNsHoE account and with the understanding that any further socking will result in immediate siteban reinstatement. Night Ranger (talk) 02:51, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

@Ched, yes, the OFFER incident was two years ago. In the intervening time Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/TrEeMaNsHoE/Archive filled up with fifteen more reports, almost all of which uncovered multiple socks, the most recent bout being in September. I could see how it may be seen to be implied in my remarks that this is a stale issue, but really I just mentioned it as an example of the outright dishonesty this user has exhibited again and again. If we are even going to consider this it should be with not only a "sudden death" restriction on operating multiple accounts for any reason, but also a full topic ban from the areas where this user caused problems to begin with. That would be any article related to Ciara, construed as broadly as possible, and if I recall correctly, any edit to sales figures by any recording artist. Possible additional restrictions would be a requirement to provide a reliable source with any and all substantive edits regardless of subject and a requirement that they have a mentor with whom they will consult before making any edit more substantial than a typo correction. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:05, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Good point Beebs - I changed to "cautious" and put their talk on my watchlist in case they do succeed in returning. I looked through edit history, block log, contibs etc. I think they may want to contribute, and got rebellious when things didn't go their way. In the end, it's been about 6 months since that IP socking (class A network, so I'm guessing just rebooted the router, or power outage to get that other IP). If they stick to article space, contribute constructively - personally I'm willing to give them a chance - but I'm only one voice here, and you do have a good point - so I certainly understand your hesitation on this one. — Ched : ? 04:29, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

oppose unblock, too many socks. support uplifting the block. Block you're doing a fantastic job, keep it up!--Crossmr (talk) 04:42, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Cautious Support - Per MuZemike and Ched with a understanding of Beeblebrox's concerns. (Also have talk page on watchlist) Mlpearc (powwow) 05:00, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Support MuZemike's proposed unblock, with preemptive support for a reblock if TrEeMaNsHoE abuses or misuses the second chance we're giving him. 28bytes (talk) 06:58, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Comment – Relisting discussion, which was prematurely bot-archived. --MuZemike 19:16, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Oppose - user has already been given chances. I see nothing to convince me they will stop socking. → ROUX ₪ 19:30, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Question Didn't we just have an unblock discussion for this user a week or two ago? Nyttend (talk) 20:51, 10 March 2012 (UTC) Oops, now I see MuZemike's comment about unarchiving. Nyttend (talk) 20:52, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I would really like to see preconditions, including a topic ban from editing in the areas where they have caused so much trouble in the past. Mike, since you have had contact with them perhaps you could see if they would agree to some voluntary restrictions? I already laid out what those might be in my remarks above. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:57, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Propose removal of topic ban of Tom harrison

Administrator Tom harrison (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was topic banned indefinitely over comments he made on 9/11 conspiracy theories under the findings of the arbcom ruling Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/September 11 conspiracy theories#Standard discretionary sanctions and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/September 11 conspiracy theories#Purpose of Misplaced Pages (specifically use of the site for advocacy or propaganda). The user making the complaint is The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks) and is well known among many noticeboards as well as an inclusionist for many unreliable conspiracy theories within 9/11 articles. His complaint against a well respected and established administrator was sustained. The primary administrator that proposed the ban has since relinquished his admin tools under a cloud related to this issue . he has said his decision should not be permanent . An affirming administrator seems to base the premise on a permanent ban on whether a sourced statement is accurate . The source is Conspiracy theories and Secret Societies for Dummies, pg 95-96 and was provided by Tom. Israeli and specifically Jewish conspiratorial involvement in 9/11 and many other negative historical events is widely sourced and practically the prevailing viewpoint in the non-Israel countries in the middle east. The arbcom decision section cited was to prevent original research and unreliably sourced conspiracy theories from being included in mainstream articles on 9/11 articles. There is quite a bit of difference in saying that "9/11 was caused by Bush and the Jews" (poorly sourced and original research) and "Their is a widely held belief in middle eastern countries that Jews were involved in 9/11." (very well sourced and documented). Exploring and explaining why and how those beliefs evolved using sources is not a violation of the Arbcom decision on conspiracy theories. Indeed the basis for the Timotheus_Canens (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfas · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks) reads more like he is disputing the wording of well-sourced content and not finding that the principles of the arbitration decision were violated.

Furthermore, prior to the implementation of a topic ban require "Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning." The uninvolved admin doesn't appear to have warned Tom that he believed his edits may be in violation of the arbcom decision. If he was relying on the warning of an editor with the the history of The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks), his interpretation of the sanctions portion of the decision is severely lacking. It stands to reason that the intent of naming an uninvolved admin AND requiring a warning is to put an editor on notice that a neutral party finds their edits objectionable. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions. There is no indication that Tom knew or should have known that uninvolved administrators would find his content to be objectively flawed when the only prior complaint comes from a problematic editor with a history of POV pushing. Indeed the lack of a specific warning by the banning admin violatestes the discrtionary sanction policy and the topic ban should have been vacated immediately. The bottom line, though, is that after 30 days, Tom has not challenged this decision and graciously accepted it, even in it's fundamental unfairness and the cloud under which the blocking admin resigned. The topic ban was applied outside the scope of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions and the admin community should reduce this topic ban to the thirty days time served. Such a remedy is even supported by the initial complainant and is in the best interest of the project. --DHeyward (talk) 07:05, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

As a matter of protocol, is there a reason why this can't be handled through the prescribed venue of WP:AE? (See the general instructions for discretionary sanctions.)

As a practical matter, is there a reason why Tom Harrison isn't participating in this appeal? Unless there's been some off-wiki communication, as far as I can tell his only involvement has been the notice on his talk page that the appeal was filed on his behalf. While I don't have any doubts about DHeyward's good faith, I do know that these sorts of third-party surprise interventions tend not to run very smoothly.

As a stylistic matter, the appeal could really use some whitespace. The big wall-o-text is rather daunting. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 07:46, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I was able to read DHeywards comments in less than a minute. Firstly...AE doesn't get as many responses as here. Secondly, Tom Harrison has worked on 9/11 related articles for 7 years and has made thousands of edits to them...the "indefinite ban" applied here was based on a few edits that weren't vandalism, weren't inaccurate and weren't unsourced to reliable sources. The only question here is whether Tom could have worded the items better. Lastly, my take on Tom is that he has no intention of apologizing for his edits...I wouldn't either...why would anyone plead for clemency over this? What, so they can be given the right to resume the thankless task of dealing with POV pushers? The issue here is the preposterously applied topic ban and the even more ridiculous "indefinite" term of it. I would have to say this is akin to sending someone to prison for jaywalking.MONGO 08:11, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

The instructions for overturning another admins action such as a decision to topic ban says to bring it to AN or ANI. It's 30 days so hardly an "incident" so I brought it here. The blocking admin no longer seems to participate so this appears to be the forum for undoing another admins actions as it says in the AE page. As an aside, there has been no off-wiki communication. I became aware of the "topic ban" and was essentially floored. I rarely edit Misplaced Pages because it seems fighting for things like this seem to become the main point instead of the project. It was always comforting to come back to Misplaced Pages and see that Tom and others keep watch on these topics and patiently deal with problems. Tom has been much more patient with certain topics and editors and to be permanently topic banned was just over the top. Lastly, I don't want to imply that the admins in the case acted in bad faith or didn't think they were enforcing an ArbCom decision fairly. I do believe they didn't warn Tom on his talk page and give him the opportunity to take a break as the AE decision requires. I don't wish this to become a discussion of whether the AE admins were wrong, but rather does the admin community, in light of 30 days where there has been no issue, feel they can lift the ban. I also feel the AE admins were manipulated by the complainant but that's not the fault of the admins. They are uninvolved and usually unaware of the parties and histories and is what make AE enforcement a double-edged sword and difficult task. There are other administrative forums where the editor in question is well known and would not have been successful in his complaint. As for why Tom has not appealed, it perhaps the same reason I rarely edit there. It's too much drama and fraught with the same nonsense. Whether he chooses to participate in those articles or discussions, I cannot say but you can bet that with a 'topic ban' in place, a simple vandalism revert would be instantly reported by a certain cadre of editors. I request it be lifted for Tom's protection and for the good of the project, not as an admission of wrongdoing or criticism of admins involved. --DHeyward (talk) 15:37, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Strong support of removal of this ban. Topic banning a conscientious admin in excellent standing on the say-so of a well-known 9/11 conspiracy theory pusher is a miscarriage of justice. I would say (when I'm trying to be nice) that it was caused by over-haste on the part of the admins responsible. Anyway, it violates the spirit of the relevant Arbcom decision and the ethos of this project. What a way to treat people.. ! Bishonen | talk 08:28, 11 March 2012 (UTC).

I make no judgement on whether on whether the topic ban should be lifted, but I strongly resent the thinly veiled accusations that the admins at AE acted improperly. Arbitration enforcement is a difficult area to work in, and a thankless task—we deal with the most bitter, partisan disputes on Misplaced Pages, the disputes that ArbCom has given up on and imposed discretionary sanctions, and this often involves sanctioning long-established and otherwise well-respected editors, for which the sanctioned editor and their mates will accuse admin of being biased against them, and when a determination is made that no sanction is warranted, the filing editor and their mates will accuse admins of being biased in favour of the editor in question. However, the admins who decide the result of an AE thread are neutral, uninvolved admins who simply decide whether the conduct of the editor in question is of the required standard, nd if not, what sanction (if any) to impose. Second, the "initial warning" wording means only that the editor must be aware of the discretionary sanctions on a topic area—given that Tom Harrison has previously enforced this remedy (when he was an admin), and requested enforcement of it, nobody could claim in good faith that he was not aware of it. Disclaimer: I have participated in discussions surrounding the inclusion or otherwise of conspiracy theories in the 9/11 article, so I do not consider myself to be an uninvolved administrator, which is also why I abstained from the relevant AE thread. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:10, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I believe the lack of a warning by an involved admin is a procedural error. I am not uninvolved so whether or not their conclusions about Tom's edits are correct is not a fair point for me to bring up. However, it appears they took the "warning" by TDA as sufficient. It is not. If Jeffrey Dahmer had complained to the uninvolved Prison Warden that his choice for a last meal was ignored by Tom Harrison and showed letters where Tom had denied his request, it would be improper for the prison warden to simply rely on Dahmers warnings that he should be served his preferred meal. Dahmer could be correct and be requesting string beans or something, but Tom should have been warned directly by the Prison Warden and not have to interpret whether Dahmers request was proper as Dahmer has a history of requesting rather inappropriate meals. It's the difficult part of enforcement because an uninvolved admin has no knowledge of Dahmer, the meals, the history, etc, and that is why it would have been more appropriate to warn Tom by the admin prior to the ban. Tom has taken it in stride as can be shown by his edit history. Compare it to TDA's last 30 days. --DHeyward (talk) 16:03, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Let's ask the AE admins to review and reconsider. It's very easy to cherry pick through anyone's contributions and POV pushers are often extremely adept at doing this in order to deflect attention away from their own behaviour. Guy (Help!) 12:12, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

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