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On POVs, Reverts, & Deletions

The reader should be aware that the brief description of the events leading to the outbreak of the conflict are presented from the Peruvian POV. From the Ecuadorian POV, it was the setting up of a Peruvian outpost (Base Norte), located behind the Ecuadorian outpost on the Cenepa headwaters which brought about the war. References: Pablo Cuvi,Al Filo de la Paz 1999.

• Another Example of POV pushing. Truth always finds it way. Messhermit 02:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
  • "Truth always finds it way"...Indeed. Let us hope it also finds its way in Misplaced Pages. Have a nice day. Andres C. 03:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• • Please cite sources for the 6 Ecuadorian aircraft lost in the conflict, including models and dates when they where downed by enemy fire. Also, please cite sources for the 350 Ecuadorian soldiers dead in the war. If said sources are lacking, please refrain from tampering with Ecuadorian losses during the conflict. Thank you very much. Andres C. 04:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• • What is happening here? Once again the figures for Ecuadorian losses have been changed, without indicating sources...Also, the notice about a DISPUTE was deleted (which startled me a bit). Since deleting a note of dispute must be taken seriously, I would like to know if Messhermit agrees to a call for mediation. Andres C.
    • Stick with the numbers the current sources for now, and get rid of the two section POV disputes. Those are sections so they can't be disputed and with the article size it isn't necessary. Falphin 02:19, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Dispute?

Hi there. I'm reacting to a post on WP:WARS on help for the dispute. Admittedly I have no knowledge of this conflict, but i'd be happy to mediate, if this is appreciated. Is it correct that one of the main conflicts is on the number of casualties on Ecuadorian side? --The Minister of War 18:41, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello Minister. Sadly, there is indeed a dispute of sorts going on. I am a new wikipedian, but from what I have been able to gather so far reading at the talk pages, the articles on the history of the Ecuadorian-Peruvian border disputes and its wars have been "monopolized" by a certain fellow Peruvian wikipedian, who apparently accuses any nonPeruvian wikipedian who attempt to edit the contents of these articles as "pushing an Ecuadorian POV".

My attempts to start a discussion about the sources this contributor has for the Ecuadorian losses he insists on putting in the article have had no response so far.

Finally, I found myself engaged in a full-fledged edit war on the article Ecuadorian-Peruvian War with said contributor until things reached, apparently, a dead-end. I don't really know where to go from here, not that it really matters anyhow.

- Best regards, Andres C. 00:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Currently this one doesn't look too bad. I'll probably add a couple things. 200.63.231.224 18:14, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the modifications in these page (and the other article in question) where at any moment made with the intention of creating a compromise, but rather a direct attack to the accuracy on the information. The fact that one or two pages actually claimed Victory for

the Ecuadorian Military does not make it the law of the land. And because I don't recognise such biased info, this article is named POV

The only POV that can be seen here is ecuadorian (and in the other article too), and is a terrible distortion of reality. Gladly, the other page was protected, and I will resume with my research on this war that, as in other previos oportunities, was totally imposed to the peruvian people. Messhermit 03:16, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Messerschmitt, the other page was protected. You only failed to mention that it was I who requested the protection, so as to put an end to your ceaseless ranting.

"And because I don't recognise such biased info, this article is named POV"

Messerschmitt, another proof of your persistent tendency to LIE, deceit and manipulate facts. This article has a Warning, indeed. And do you know who put the warning? Go to the "history" page and check out who added said notice of warning. If you now pretend to claim it was you who named this article "POV", well, you are telling a blatant lie. You have totally discredited yourself.

Once again, before you go on to edit the article, be aware of the Misplaced Pages policy regarding NPOV. It seems that with your appreciation that "this war that, as in other previos oportunities, was totally imposed to the peruvian people", you have not learned a bit as a result of the last edit war. So go on, by all means, start editing and you will find yourself again tearing your hair off with another edit war the very minute you start introducing terms like "Ecuadorian invasion", "Ecuadorian provocations", or the like. I wonder how more edit wars will you need before the NPOV rule sinks in.

By the way, since you are already advancing terms like "war..totally imposed to the Peruvian people it may be of interest to you to read the following extracts from the article Misplaced Pages: Neutral point of view:

Articles should be written without bias, representing all majority and significant minority views fairly. This is the neutral point of view policy. The policy is easily misunderstood. It doesn't assume that writing an article from a single, unbiased, objective point of view is possible. Instead it says to fairly represent all sides of a dispute by not making articles state, imply, or insinuate that only one side is correct. Crucially, a great merit of Misplaced Pages is that Wikipedians work together to make articles unbiased.

and also this:

A general purpose encyclopedia is a collection of synthesized knowledge presented from a neutral point of view. To whatever extent possible, encyclopedic writing should steer clear of taking any particular stance other than the stance of the neutral point of view. The neutral point of view attempts to present ideas and facts in such a fashion that both supporters and opponents can agree. Of course, 100% agreement is not possible; there are ideologues in the world who will not concede to any presentation other than a forceful statement of their own point of view. We can only seek a type of writing that is agreeable to essentially rational people who may differ on particular points.

Before you go on adding the fruits of your research, I urge you to read the entire article Misplaced Pages: Neutral point of view

Happy editing! Andres C. 17:38, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

PS- What about your sources for your figures on Ecuadorian losses during the Cenepa war?? Since you were so bent on insisting on your numbers as being the "truth", reverting unrespectfully any modification to these figures, you better come up with a good source.

Remaining Issues?

Is the number of downed Ecuadorian aircraft the only remaining issue in this article? I believe the number currently listed in the article is uncitable. Messhermit should prove otherwise. I'd suggest mentioning claims by both sides in that regard with citations, indicating that they are claims -- or removing the sentence altogether might be easier.

As general feedback, I'd say that the article does sound a bit apologetic towards the Peruvian side, with things like "overcoming difficult logistics" and all the stuff about Ecuador's advantages. It's like it's saying, these poor Peruvians, they sure had an uphill battle; it's a wonder they managed to survive. I'm sure Peru had advantages too, which are not mentioned, and that might be ok if they aren't notable. Perhaps they are, it's of general interest. For example, Peru still has one of the strongest military forces in South America, while Ecuador's rank is unknown to me, probably very low. Military spending is likely significantly divergent.

200.63.231.224 23:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

• • The article, as it stands now, is of very poor quality. Through patience and asking for a temporary protection, I at least managed to fix the figures for Ecuadorian losses (Messhermit's were something like 9 aircraft (!), 350 dead, and I don't know how many wounded, it should be right there in the history page). I'm afraid the figures now presented will be reverted back to Messhermit's own, it's just a matter of time. Yesterday I started a draft on the Beginnings of the War section, where both versions are represented. I don't know if Messhermit will tear apart my edits, so I'm not really in the mood to continue improving this article. Looks like a waste of time. And this guy have done this to a number of other wikipedians before, so it's not like he will be going anywhere anytime soon.

I occurred to me Misplaced Pages should have a feedback/rating system for Wikipedians, like eBay has for sellers, but then again, I'd have to create an account :) plus anonymous editing is what allows Misplaced Pages to be what it is. 200.63.231.224 15:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Your work is top-notch, and all things considered, you have managed to stay cool so far (yes, I know it was stupid of me to let myself be dragged into a flame war; well, sh@t happens, as they say). Why don't you go on an open an account? You will be even more anonymous that way (and secure, as your IP will not be out in the open anymore. Also, everybody can start referring to you with an easier name than 200.63.231.224... :) Take a look at some of the benefits that opening an account have. Saludos. --Andres C. 17:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. FYI, I took your advise. Neurodivergent 20:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

His discussion page is a kind of user feedback page though. Is he also deleting complaints from his discussion page? 200.63.231.224 16:49, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

From what I saw, he seems to get into trouble quite often with a number of people. It seems other Ecuadorians have thrown up their arms in despair before (thus the unilateral stance of the articles, as you (and I) found them). If this reverting thing goes on, I'll end up throwing in the towel myself. --Andres C. 17:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

• • The paragraph about the Ecuadorian advantages and Peruvian disadvantages was not created by Messhermit (or whoever it was). He just copied it from another website and pasted it here intact. Do a Google search on the Cenepa war and you'll see what I mean.

Since it's pretty recent, there are quite a bit of searchable magazine and news paper articles outside of Ecuador/Peru on this conflict. I'm sure it would be possible to write an interest and neutral article about it. It's a shame that people are basically disallowed from editing it and that uncitable claims are kept. 200.63.231.224 15:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

• • Went to help with the English grammar and spelling on the History of the Border Dispute article, deleting as I went the most obvious point-of-view references (Velasco Ibarra declaring the article void because "some say" (weasel term) it was done out of internal political reasons; the Ecuadorian map tagged as controversial, etc.) Well, as you saw, Messhermitt just reverted the WHOLE edit. What a waste of time...

I think it's fine to include the speculation that Velazco was politically motivated, so long as the article indicates that it is speculation by Peruvians, i.e. the article doesn't state it as if it were fact, as it used to in the 1941 article, a sentence which I've fixed to indicate it's speculation -- something which hopefully will be left alone as is. Normally I believe the Misplaced Pages philosophy is to exclude speculation as much as possible. But in this case it's probably notable and would lead to an endless edit war if excluded. 200.63.231.224 16:46, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

• • Your work on the History of the Border Dispute is great. Sorry I can't continue polishing it. This Messhermit guy won't let me get anywhere near it.

Yep, that's a shame. Try some simple grammar/spelling changes and see if he deletes them. If he does, report him. 200.63.231.224 15:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

• • Regards. Andres C. 01:05, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

The Battlebox and the figures given for losses

• Messhermit: When I came to Misplaced Pages, the first thing I did was to correct the figures for the losses during the Cenepa war. My edits were immediately reverted. When I asked about the reason for that and the sources for the numbers given in the battlebox, I got accused of promoting an Ecuadorian POV. Then I asked your opinion about a mediator, you did not answer. When I tried to contact you directly, I got accused of vandalism for the mistake of contacting you in your personal page...It was not what I would call a friendly reception from a veteran Wikipedian. Please approach the subject of Peruvian and Ecuadorian losses during the Cenepa war with the utmost respect. If you agree to that, I think we can get on in very good terms.

• About the battlebox: Messhermit did not put it in there. It was someone else. What Messhermit did was revert any changes made without explaing reasons for doing so. And I found that a bit shocking.
• I think that a battlebox for a conflict that happened barely 10 years ago is by itself troublesome. First, it asks for an outcome to be put in. If you write "Ecuadorian victory" (on the grounds that the Ecuadorian forces were able to hold on to their bases in the Cenepa valley during the conflict) it would only cause another flame war. If you write "Indecisive", you would have to explain why it was indecisive, and so on...

• On the aircraft losses. I found someone (not Messhermit) had written in the battlebox that Ecuador had lost 6 aircraft and Peru 9 aircraft. Both numbers are wrong. The ACIG information is in general correct (though some very interesting "insider" details from the Ecuadorian side are lacking; I don't know "insider" details from the Peruvian side, someone will have to help us on that one). I ask Messhermit to specify what part of the ACIG data he finds inaccurate. If he gives specifics, we can have an interesting & friendly debate about such data. I hope he does that.
• At the end of the day, and if the worst comes to the worst, Neurodivergent's idea would be the best way to solve the issue of aircraft losses without an edit war. Each side would just write down the number of aircraft and helicopters each side claimed, and the number each side

recognized as having lost.

That's probably the way to go. Those numbers should each have citations if the issue is so contentious. If some citations are better than others, that's for the reader to figure out. Neurodivergent 15:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

• Barring unexpected reverts, it is my intention to continue with the draft of the Cenepa war, seen from the Ecuadorian perspective. I hope the Ecuadorian version can be complemented in time by someone with a Peruvian version of events, so anyone interested in the article will benefit from learning the history of the Cenepa war as seen from each side.

Regards, --Andres C. 04:36, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

BTW, this Chilean paper has an analysis of the losses, and says there's no trustable source of information: . Neurodivergent 17:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Pagename

I renamed the article Cenepa War (from Cenepa war), to keep it in line with other articles belonging to the same Wikiproject, e.g. Yom Kippur War, Vietnam War, etc. Hope it's ok with everybody. -- Andres C. 07:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

POV analysis

It seems this article has a pro Ecuador point of view about this war. Added POV sign at the top of the page.HappyApple 01:18, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello! I saw you put a notice disputing the article without any previous talk. I have been working on this article, trying to stick to a neutral point of view. Since I am Ecuadorian -and hence, citizen of one of the countries involved- it would be only natural if I missed something somewhere. Could you be so kind as to specify exactly which section, paragraphs or sentences have an Ecuadorian point of view? Some details and sources would be most welcome. I'd be happy to change what you deem as pro-Ecuadorian points of view, but I'd need specifics first. Sources would help too. Cheers. --Andres C. 02:23, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I have noticed your polite mood right here, but i pledge to your conscience and stop using Caps Lock on other Talk Pages related to Peruvian and Ecuador conflicts, i urge you to dont use arguments including swearing, and to use revert tool just in case to be neccesary. On the other hand; I find is disputed the accuracy on the following aspects:

• This was a Non declared war on the first place, the name of the article needs to be re worked
• How Peruvian and Ecuador task force was involved in the war?
• Does the aftermath is a factual victory or decisive victory?
• How logistics worked on this conflict by both sides.? HappyApple 03:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

• Hi everyone. It's understandable that according ecuadorians this conflict ended in victory for their military, since no person would like his country to be the one who loosed, or be the one who initiated the aggressions; however, we must never forget that in every war there is more than ONE version of the events.
• That been said, I think this article should be separated in both ecuadorian and peruvian version, because both versions are not accurate, since they represent the POV of each army, they may have some true, but they are not to be considerate as "facts".
• Finally, in the spirit of brotherhood, I want to add that this conflict has already ended years ago, and the borders are already established with the agreement of both sides, so let's not fight over disagreements related to sources and STOP the personal aggression.

201.240.52.123 04:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

• Hello. Thank you for your advice. The only thing I can't do is to stop using the revert tool, as I was not the person doing that action. I may have used strong words, yes, but I am not into the business of deleting sources for articles or reverting an entire work. By the same token, I would only ask you to please calm down a bit. It is not contructive to keep on reviving and old flame war with Messhermit. I am sure he would ask you the same thing.
• This article is for Ecuadorians and Peruvians to build together in harmony, trying to reach consensus on an item per item basis. I think that with a little patience it can be done succesfully. So far I've been the main contributor of the version you are seeing because no one else has shown interest in contributing before you did. I thank you for that. On your questions:
• Please give us some ideas for a new name for the war. In any case, remember that declarations of war are diplomatic measures of days long gone. If I am not mistaken, the last one was the declaration of war of Germany to the USA on December 11, 1941. The biggest war in the history of humanity, the Ruso-German war of 1941-45, never saw a declaration of war from any one of the two parties involved. The Yom Kippur war article is a featured article in Misplaced Pages. . I don't know if there are issues with the name because it was an undeclared war. Be that as it may, please bring forward a new name and let's talk about it. Also, please take a look at this Peruvian Congress motion from 2002 regarding the definition of Total War for the Alto Cenepa conflict. I think it's an important piece of information to take into account.
• I don't really get your second question, regarding "task force". Could you be more specific?
• The aftermath, I believe, was a peace treaty signed in 1998. Regarding the outcome of the war, I don't know if we can apply the terms you are suggesting for a self-limited conflict. Look at how I worked my way through it, both in the battlebox and in the introduction, so as not to hurt any sensibilites, be it from Ecuadorians or Peruvians. Anyway, give me your opinion regarding the outcome, and how it should be worded.
• For logistics: please read the sections "mobilizing for war" and "ex post fact analysis of the war". If you deem there is not enough information on the issue, I'd guess it's mainly because there are no credible sources to back up any information on little known aspects of the war, still kept secret by both sides. It would be very good if you can contribute with some new information regarding logistics to the one that is already there.
  

Regards --Andres C. 08:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello IP user. No single person holds the ultimate truth. That is why the best articles in Misplaced Pages are those in which many contributors, with different points of view, have participated. The version I bring to you is as neutral as I could go, taking good care to cite the controversial parts, so it's not my truth, but the truth of the sources I have been able to find on the matter. If I have not been neutral enough, that can be corrected with your contributions and sources. I have tried to steer clear from words like "aggresor" or "winner" to avoid getting into unwanted polemics.

Please help us to separate the article on Ecuadorian and Peruvian parts. Give us some ideas on the layout you propose, so we can start working together on it. Is there any specific event you are finding incorrect? If that is the case, please be specific so as to put both versions of the event, as long as we can cite sources.

You are totally right. The war ended more than ten years ago. What we are doing here is not reviving anachronistic antagonism, but creating an article belonging to Wikiproject Military history. That's how it should be taken, and not in any other way. At least that's my personal opinion anyway. I believe the sources included so far are worthwhile and credible. Ït would be great if you can add some more sources to the article. Hope you can put some new information in the article. If any information you have found is blatantly wrong, please point it to me, so I can double-check on the sources for that particular event. Best wishes. Andres C. 08:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello! On the issue of the POV warning, I went on to make a proposal, to work our way around it. New section: The Crisis Escalates, with two subsections, for Ecuadorian and Peruvian versions. The sources I'm citing (I think the references are coming out ok, but if not let me know) all point to the same meeting between Grijalba and López Trigoso. The contents of the meeting according to said references are already under the Ecuadorian version. Please help me out with the Peruvian one. If there is a Peruvian version that differs form the one cited already, I guess we can put it under the subsection I left open. Hope to hear what you think. Regards. Andres C. 18:04, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello HappyApple. Thanks for your feedback.

• I think there is no problem in specifying that the Cenepa conflict was an undeclared war. Already on line 2 of the second paragraph we are defining as a self-limited conflict, which for the purposes of defining the scope of the war is, I'd say, more specific than defining it as an undeclared war (case in point: the Russo-German war of 1941-45. There was no declaration of war between Germany and the USSR, and yet it was the biggest military conflict in history). On the other hand, I should like to point out that the Cenepa war was pure conventional warfare, in the sense that we usually interpret the term, that is, a war fought with conventional means (infantry, artillery, helicopters, fighters, etc).
• On draft and conscription. As far as I know, both countries activated general mobilization, which in most cases includes calling to arms all former conscripts between the ages of 19 to 22 (the active reserve). Look at the Chronology section, date January 27, where I am mentioning the important concentration of forces on the lowlands border. I'm planning to add a small subsection on the danger of a general war, with the Peruvian submarines already in the Gulf of Guayaquil, the FAE Jaguars armed and ready to destroy Talara AFB, and the FAP to do the same to Taura AFB.
• Generally we use the word logistics to refer to issues of supply, transport, and maintenance of troops on the field. "Mobilizing for war" and "ground warfare: logistics" already mention some logistical aspects of the war. I agree with your suggestion on including some additional information on weapons and technology. We have already a lot of info on the air war, but if you or anyone can add some more information it would be even better.
• Pictures are definitely a must. Generally I go on to add pictures after I think the text is more or less ok. I am trying to find a good map of the area of the conflict that can be uploaded to wikipedia, that's my priority regarding images.

Well, that's more or less it. I think that, in general, I agree with your suggestions. An article will always benefit from additional information. If there's specific information you want to add -and that perhaps I am not aware of- by all means, go ahead. Anyway, it's not like I own the article: it's all public domain. Nevertheless, I am still confused about the strong POV warning. I've been re-reading the articles Misplaced Pages:Neutral Point of View, Misplaced Pages:Points of view, and Misplaced Pages:NPOV dispute, to see if I had missed something. As far as I can tell, I've tried to keep the article unbiased, balanced, with all major points of view included. Still, if there's anything that goes against the NPOV policy, let me know, so we can fix it. My priority here is not to advance any particular agenda, but to describe the major military developments of the Cenepa war. Andres C. 06:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed notices & ideas

Although there have been some disagreements, this edit seems to indicate no POV dispute anymore. Perhaps somebody else will add one, but thats fine. I have also removed the notice that the article is under construction; every article on Misplaced Pages is under construction at all times, and judging from the controversiality perhaps some input from all sides should be welcomed rather than discouraged. As a small note, I edited the infobox; clearly the casualty number is the official number, any deviations should be mentioned in the text, but just looks confusing in the infobox imho.

The article seems to be looking good, nice work Andre C! It has grown from a small stub to a decent sized, informative article! If you would appreciate some constructive comments, i think some points could be expanded/improved:

1. This conflict is screaming for a map! Where were the bases, where is the dispute exactly? I havent looked around other Peru-Ecuador articles yet, but perhaps something is already on Wiki somewhere. If not, any map featuring Ecuador and Peru would already be a great addition.
2. Background & Causes could perhaps be merged; they both deal with the backgrounds, only long and short term. I dont think a single sentence should deserve a seperate header & section personally.
3. The section New Crisis is currently split in a Peruvian and Ecuadorian side. This is a good method to create NPOV by balancing, but ultimately often a very bad way to maintain NPOV. People will often want to add their POV to their section "Group A always insults Group B", which is then hard to refute, because it is already mentioned as a POV. I'll give it a shot soon.
4. One simple (yet dangerous) question is not clearly answered: Who won? Only the Ecuadorian opinion is stated; does this mean Peru disagrees? There is mention of a peace-agreement which both sides did not like, but for someone not very familiar with the topic (aka me), its not easy to judge the importance of any part of the agreement.
5. The sections Fallout, Aftermath and EPF analysis could use a merge and rename. The names are very much alike, and should perhaps be sub-sections of each other:
   1. Aftermath: Small intro on how the conflict ended, and a condensed version of the EPF analysis
      1. Peace Agreement: what did the agreement exactly contain? Was everybody happy?
      2. Casualties: the how and why of disagreement on numbers.
      3. Political fallout: the consequences for political life in Peru and in Ecuador.

I also think it would make sense to include Controversial Issues and perhaps the main bulk of the EPF analysis throughout the article rather than in seperate sections. Controversial issues tend to expand rapidly just as seperate POV sections as i mention above. Well, those are my suggestions, hope they make some sense! The Minister of War 10:54, 14 November 2005 (UTC)