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Proposed indefinite topic ban for Yogesh Khandke

Topic-ban enacted: banned from all edits on the subjects of colonialism and Indian history. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Yogesh Khandke (talk · contribs · global contribs · logs · block log) figured in the departure of Blnguyen/YellowMonkey in late 2010. Since then, his persistent attempts to skew Misplaced Pages's coverage of South Asian history in favor of various fringe Hindu nationalist theories has repeatedly sapped the time and morale of knowledgeable and/or expert contributors. As seen in the latest episode (and again in a previous iteration), YK is adroit in promoting a non-consensus position—one that can hardly be said to enjoy more currency among reputable historians than does, say, Holocaust denial. Time and again in YK's career, this problematic editing programme is backed with non-pertinent and non-specialist sources in intense bursts of repeat reverts and talk-page spamming of questionable sources. He backs off for a time before returning, often to the same article and the same issue. This sporadicity has perhaps allowed him to dodge the blocks and other injunctions that befall other disruptively tendentious or revisionist editors not savvy enough to strategically time or space their spurious content challenges.

Nevertheless, the damage is done: again and again, as exemplified most recently at Talk:India#Aryan_Invasion_theory_oops_read_migration, experienced editors must tediously refute each of YK's formulaic challenges: fringe theories backed by marginal or non-specialist sources; Hindutva-sympathetic rewrites and removals backed by marginal or non-specialist sources. This would perhaps be OK if the editor in question were newer or less familiar with core content policies, but the episodic recidivism of YK is a different matter: a topic ban for YK revolving around South Asian history, preferably indefinite but otherwise of duration not less than six months, renewable upon occurrence of further disruption, would be a solution that would save time and foster more policy-compliant content contribution on both sides. Saravask 11:12, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Some additional points:

• I recommend that the closing admin interpret "a topic ban for YK revolving around South Asian history, preferably indefinite ..." as taking the form of the first restriction placed on Zuggernaut (talk · contribs · global contribs · logs · block log): "topic banned from Indian history, broadly construed. He is not permitted to edit or discuss these topics anywhere on Misplaced Pages." Presumably, as with Zuggernaut, a mentoring admin would step forward to guide/police YK with respect to the topic ban.
• Below, editors suggested that the proposed editing restriction should have been stronger, for example stating that YK's source misrepresentations and undue referencing and tendentious editing not be merely decanted from one topic (South Asian history) to another (British literature). Some seemed to hint that an indefinite site ban is required: "It is time for Yogesh Khandke to go."; "... but, when it involves misrepresentation, an "us and them" attitude, alteration of sources, stuff like that, I think it is time to say thanks but goodbye to Khandke." In light of the further evidence of YK's persistent pattern of disruption (more detailed and disturbing than mine) presented below, short of a unequivocal promise to reform tendered by YK, I'd support a site ban, whether now or in future YK-related damage-control discussions.
• For now, the spirit of the proposed topic ban should ideally inform uninvolved admins dealing with YK-style disruption, whether the strict letter of this proposed ban cover the affected pages (say, on Pakistani or Indian history) or not (Dickens). If YK returns to disruptive editing (which, given his on-and-off history, is likely), the consensus that emerges here should help enact stronger future restrictions earlier rather than later in YK's next disruptive cycle.
• Several editors with greater sourcing expertise than I or more experience dealing with YK have corrected/clarified/expanded the observations above. Johnuniq, Truthkeeper88, and others point to the harm YK has done to the Charles Dickens articles by giving undue weight to sources or positions, driving away responsible editors, etc. Had I known, I'd have recommended a more wide-ranging editing restriction, perhaps by proposing enactment of point four of the Zuggernaut restrictions with respect to the Dickens articles as well as point three, allowing uninvolved admins to spot ban YK from talk pages/articles where he has been or is being disruptive.

Saravask 05:56, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support - I have been watching this latest sequence and did on a couple of occasions try to explain to those who were getting drawn in by YK's fringe theories, but my experience of YK's methodology, which Saravask explains well, goes back for quite some while. Nothing is changing, nothing is being learned and the time-sink aspect is phenomenal. - Sitush (talk) 11:24, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• This gives an idea of just how many times Yogesh Khandke's POV-pushing/undue weight theories etc have been referred to this noticeboard. There are plenty of other instances that did not make it thus far and he was, of course, involved in the politically-oriented protest at the India Wikiconference last year when he tried to obtain a legal resolution to an issue relating to WP's depiction of maps of India. He disappeared when that failed and has only recently returned to editing. - Sitush (talk) 12:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The sources never say that they are 'fringe' theories by 'cranks'. These are assertions from editors on Misplaced Pages. I am little puzzled how Sitush is silent on this facet, even if that goes against his vote.

Also Sitush and other editors are well experienced to let know if content disputes can be taken to ANI or not. My understanding says that content dispute has to be dealt with first before concluding that these are 'fringe theories'. Considering your expertise on sources, could you present sources please that state clearly that views from the side of YK are exclusively 'fringe theories'. Unless it is proven that views from the side of YK are exclusively 'fringe theories', such assumptions can be made against views presented by YK.

I don't think that much of what User:Saravask states such as "in favor of various fringe Hindu nationalist theories" etc holds unless any content disputes, if any, are resolved.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 06:35, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Saravask describes it well. I've seen editors spending huge amounts of time trying to explain to Yogesh Khandke how we use reliable sources, how we evaluate sources, how we can't add improperly sourced fringe ideas, can't add nationalist POV, etc, but it's just not getting through and a lot of time is being wasted repeatedly going over the same kinds of things. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:36, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry to say that there are no sources presented by the involved admin himself that state the sources presented by YK are exclusively fringe theories. Per me, this is in contradiction to his statement above about his own idea of reliable sources and loses much weight especially in absence of any discussion as such on 'fringe throries' which could not be discussed on this noticeboard.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 06:39, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

You appear to be confusing the original content disputes and this discussion of YK's behaviour. Saravask has provided links showing evidence of YK's behaviour, and the sources/fringe/POV issues are covered at those links. In order to evaluate YK's behaviour and Saravask's recommendation, I do not need to restart the content arguments here and now or provide any content sources of my own (as the sources used were presented and discussed at the time), I simply need to evaluate the evidence of YK's behaviour in those content discussions. (And by the way, I really don't think your badgering everyone who supports this recommendation is doing you any favours, you know). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Just to clarify as per Johnuniq's request below, I am supporting an indefinite topic ban on editing in any topic areas related to South Asian history, in any Misplaced Pages space. I note other editors' opinions that there is a wider problem, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with any other areas of contention to offer my judgment on that, so I have to remain neutral on any proposals for wider sanctions. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - My understanding here is that the views per YogeshKhandke are not 'Hindu nationalist theories' or 'fringe theories backed by marginal or non-specialist sources; Hindutva-sympathetic' etc. I can say this by words present in the discussion itself such as 'contemporary scholarly debates', 'some Indian scholars', 'Some historians and Indian nationalists', 'The Aryan migration theory has been challenged recently by several archaeologists', etc. Words like scholarly debates, Indian scholars, Some historians, archaeologists etc. can hardly be described as 'fringe' groups etc - I think all the participants here in this debate need to understand this well. In any case, this is about history long ago which no one can directly prove much at all directly with certainty; much less if there is indeed a debate on such topic ongoing - more so hotly debated topics such as this. Also, western sources per my understanding do not represent exhaustive views, and quoting someone of higher repute is considered sufficient for substance, without actually going into details of all sides. For me therefore this does not merit such action, especially when sources can have diverse views and are not bound to present all views (- this needs to be better discussed per me). As far as other edits are concerned, undoing an edit is no big deal especially compared to edits put in especially with sources mentioned. I would also suggest people here, learned and experienced too, to avoid name calling on personal perceptions. An example would be 'crank' which is per individual editor's (here Fowler) choice of words to describe what he calls nationalist historians/archeologists. While being experienced and reputed on Misplaced Pages, this wouldn't affect the seniormost editors but it would definitely affect any not-so-senior ones in case views from one side is made to look worthless, leading to bans etc. If senior editors do it, others will learn to repeat the same behavior. I am reminded of one instance when I was involved in an ugly exchange with some senior editor who suggested something like I have sympathy for 'saffron terror' or 'saffron terrorism' or whatever, while reopening a closed vote in my absence; and got away without even a warning and that lead to a ban on me.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 12:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Where were you banned or even blocked? I don't see anything in your block log. Would you mind supplying a diff? JanetteDoe (talk) 15:44, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• JanetteDoe, Thisthat2011 was topic banned per this. It has expired now. - Sitush (talk) 15:55, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Sitush, I didn't see that. JanetteDoe (talk) 16:02, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I was talking about this topic ban , the one mentioned by Sitush is incorrect. It is where I was accused one the lines of saffron terror as a reason reopening a vote which I think is not a correct way to reopen a closed vote. No one corrected either the editor not the reopening of voting.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 18:26, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The topic ban link to which you refer appears to be the same ban to which I referred. Am I mistaken? The fact that you more or less sat out that ban and then returned to similar topic areas and, in a fairly short space of time, end up here ... well, it does not look great. I would not have raised the issue if you had not volunteered it. My suggestion would be that in future you do not refer back to that topic ban: it had consensus and it is over and done with. - Sitush (talk) 23:15, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Please check again, these are two messages with same header for some reason! Also, my ban is over. Per instructions of the person who banned me, I am discussing this on talk pages, I have not indulged in any edit war which you may imply. I have presented my views on talk:India page too. If you have anything against it, please reply there because I have neither edited anything on that page currently, nor edited even if sources requested by me are not presented, even here.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 06:43, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I have made my position clear here. I will not make any further comments other than saying that I think this discussion has turned rather fragmented, with little smaller discussions on sourcing when it is not being discussed at reliable sources board even for dispute, and more. I could have said a lot more with sources on various topics on each topic but but I think that won't be possible here with an open mind for all sides so I won't regardless as also that this looks too confusing to me.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 19:43, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - I dont see anything wrong being done by Yogesh, first you may argue that he had edited the article before discussing but that action alone would not merit a ban. He did not push aside the sources presented by other editors all he displayed was that there are other theories so the sentence needs to be changed. Editors like fowler are considering few historians a cranck case and thus not considering those historians work, now this is something that can be debated. Coming to the point of Yoges pushing few Indian nationalist theory; Yogesh did provide few other sources and none of them were Indians, if he is wrong you can discard the sources but not initiate a discussion to ban him.--sarvajna (talk) 12:26, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The discussion is going no where and its getting murkier with every reply from either side. Thanks --sarvajna (talk) 20:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support Its high time he is topic banned. His POV pushing is wasting everyone's time. He knows perfectly well what can be added here and what cannot. This is not the first time he is doing it. He knows well that the POV he pushes cannot get consensus through discussions, so his method is to first add unilaterally, then edit war without breaking 3RR. When thwarted he will try to argue it in the talk page. He usually doesnt get his way and comes back a few months later repeating the same point or similar points. He is a colossal drain on the community's time and resources.--Sodabottle (talk) 12:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• 'Yogesh Khandke replies:(1)Some of those voting here Soda, Sitush, and admin Zebeedee, a long history of conflict with me regarding content, Sitush has been hounding me for many months but I have ignored him, not to create conflict. (2)ANI isn't the forum to bring content disputes so I will not justify my edits unless asked to do so. (3)Regarding gaming the system: I don't have computer access at work, so my editing is subject to the time I have leisure, that cannot be held against me. (3)Since it is year-end, (financial year), I have limited time, so that should be considered, I mean I will not be able to watch this page, I could know about this discussion only because I received an email alert because of the message left on my talk page. (4)This ANI is used as a tool in content disputes, which is unfair. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:26, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Holocaust denial: Saravask writes: "YK is adroit in promoting a non-consensus position—one that can hardly be said to enjoy more currency among reputable historians than does, say, Holocaust denial.", which is nothing but a lie, all I wanted in the article was the mention that the Aryan Invasion/Migration theory is disputed for which I have presented evidence, I repeat my position which is that the India article which mentions the Aryan Migration theory should also mention that the theory is disputed by academics - historians, archaeologists, experts on genetics, cultural and language scholars, I am not disputing the mention of Aryan Migration in the article, my position is that this theory is diputed by numerous NON-FRINGE, RELIABLE SOURCES, for which I have presented evidence which I have collected on a sandbox and so the India article should take cognizance of the dispute as it is NOTABLE. (sorry about bringing up the content dispute but the fatuous reference to Holocaust denial needed to be scotched.) Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Regarding Fowler I should add his name in the list of content disputers and one who has been frequently abusive and uncivil, however since I don't believe in formal action against fellow editors I dropped the issue after he tendered an unconditional apology - twice. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The language that Fowler uses: "Hindu nationalist fringe "scholars" ", "Indian cranks" in the latest discussion., when administrator Regentspark was requested to reign in the abusive Fowler (for an abuse a short while before the edit presented by the diff), admin Regentspark excused himself as an involved editor, here he has no qualms in rushing to support a topic ban, he was an opposite party made by me in the historic YellowMonkey case and was admonished for batting for YellowMonkey. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:16, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Now that Mr. Khandke is cornered he has suddenly turned saintly and is accusing me of being abusive. He conveniently forgets his own transgressions. Long before I entered this latest fray, when user:AshLin asked for my input on the current state of knowledge on the Indo-Aryan migration theory, Mr. Khandke, unsolicited, offered a Marathi language proverb which he offhandedly asked AshLin to translate if requested. Well, why don't you translate it for us now, Mr. Khandke? I am requesting. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:17, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

PS Perhaps someone else who knows Marathi could translate it? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:23, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't know Marathi, but found the proverb here. JanetteDoe (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. Not sure what to make of it, but YK has a history of using vernacular expressions (which I don't understand) in exchanges with me. See, for example, user:Sodabottle's post at the bottom of this ANI thread titled Personal attacks by Yogesh Khandke. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:01, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Well Fowler even before you entered the discussion YK had suggested that you would ardently oppose the inclusion of the other theory(that is what the proverb mean but indirectly) which proved to be right. Yes there are incidents were your language can be very objectionable for example ] where you say that it is the last time that you would consider ppl bringing other sources, I guess if I had pursued it may be there would have a been a discussion about banning me as well, calling historians whom you don't consider worthy as crank case is also objectionable anyhow the discussion here is not about Fowler's language but about YK. I feel that this whole discussion is biased against YK--sarvajna (talk) 17:06, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

It is more likely to be the case that the comments here reflect an emerging consensus, but time will tell. However, even when not indulging fringe theorists etc, Yogesh Khandke has to be watched carefully. For example, compare this new article by him with its current state. I am still trying to fix the gross slant that he put on the thing, using for now just the sources that he has identified. It is the usual subtle "all the fault of the Brits" stuff in which he seems to specialise. - Sitush (talk) 18:04, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

It seems that everyone is being vindictive of YK and everything that was edited by him is being dug out, this discussion was started after he had given some evidences of sources on the India talk page. Few admins/editors have declared that nothing would change as long as they are the administrators and I feel the point of banning YK has come up because he annoys few admins POV(This is what I think after seeing the talk page of India and few other AN/I involving YK, I also know that this would not matter a lot) --sarvajna (talk) 18:24, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

From Sitush "even when not indulging fringe theorists etc, Yogesh Khandke has to be watched carefully", does this mean that opinion of User:Sitush is more likely that the editor YK is not indulging fringe theorists in this case? just for clarity. In that case, the entire discussion may be seen in another light - perhaps a content dispute, and not what this looks like.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 19:59, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

You ask for clarity. If I could understand the rest of your message then perhaps I could provide it. Can anyone assist? Perhaps I am a bit more than my usual dumb self today. - Sitush (talk) 23:15, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

My concern is that YK has failed to observe WP:SPEAKENGLISH with me more than has any other editor I have encountered in my six years on Misplaced Pages. His command of English is not that poor that the vernacular (Marathi) is his only option, that he can't provide a translation, when he knows perfectly well that I do not understand a word of the language. How come he is not using Marathi (with offhanded remarks about translation) in the frenetic edits he is making on the Charles Dickens page? How come there are no "frog in the well," or "wrestling with a pig" expressions there? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:04, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

She likes to tell the story of the Ganges/Ganga argument playing out now on English Misplaced Pages. In India, the official name for the country's second-largest river is the Ganga. The British have long called it the Ganges, a term that bears the stench of colonization for many Indians. Since 2007, there has been a spirited back-and-forth between editors about whether a search for the river should redirect to Ganga or Ganges. "There are two Indian guys arguing one side, and then there's a bunch of casual editors from the United States and Europe arguing the other," says Gardner. "And it's interesting because there's this tiny number of Indians who care a lot and are correct and have all kinds of citations and evidence to support their view, and then there's this group who just are rebuffing them because the numbers are on their side."

Additional statement from Yogesh Khandke I am back as this has taken longer than I expected. Fowler&fowler has called me deceitful in this discussion, which is a strong allegation. If I would write Indlu yako injani, would the reader say don’t talk Zulu with me? I doubt very much, unless he has a familiarity with the language, he would say stop that gibberish, we have Fowler&fowler saying on this page Mr. Khandke, unsolicited, offered a (edit summary reads please translate) Marathi language proverb which he offhandedly asked AshLin to translate if requested Well, why don't you translate it for us now, Mr. Khandke? I am requesting. (1) I request the closing admin to muse over how (a) Fowler&fowler knew what I said was in Marathi language, (b) how Fowler&fowler had enough familiarity with the language to know that I had used a proverb and wasn’t say swearing at him in my native language. (c) With answers to (a) and (b) at hand I request the closing admin to think over why Fowler&fowler asks me to translate the non-English statement for him. (d) Assuming there is a good reason for Fowler&fowler to have written what he did, I request the closing admin to understand that the statement was for user:AshLin an editor whom I have met at a Misplaced Pages programme, and who I know is familiar with the language in which the statement is made. Please note that: I wasn’t talking to Fowler&fowler, I was talking to AshLin. (2) I have used non-English words when Fowler&fowler has been around, one must not forget that these were used in the context of editing in the Indian content environment (and not while editing say Charles Dickens' Racism and anti-Semitism), where editing is done in Indian English, so that words like bandh, dharna, gherao, loot, jungle, lakh, crore etc potentially could be used. Some of these words may be a part of UK or US English, others may not. Also, the only other non-English term (if my memory serves me right, apart from the German quotation I gave on 2012-03-31) has been kupamanduka, a Sanskrit philosophical term, one that The Times of India, the world’s largest circulating English newspaper has used too. Another thing that puzzles me is the very old-fashioned word vernacular, that he used, one more popular with the British when referring to native languages in colonial India. How does he know that Marathi is my vernacular, if it is the vernacular which in his opinion is the lingua franca? (3) Fowler&fowler continues to create in his words "drama", he writes about how Elst and Frawley are anti-Muslim and belong to the camp that thinks that Aryan Migration/Invasion isn't the final word in ancient Indian history. Isn't that a classic Ad hominem argument? Fowler&fowler's argument is also classic strawman as I haven't quoted Elst and Frawley, those I have quoted are here viz. Stephen Oppenheimer (who has been quoted by a rediff.com news-story), Gavin D. Flood (who acknowledges the disputes but who considers that Aryans arrived as a minority - not several waves as the India article describes it as), Kenneth A. R. Kennedy, Edwin Bryant, Laurie L. Patton (who are editors of "The Indian-Aryan controversy..."), Jim G. Shaffer and Diane A. Lichtenstein whose article is included by Bryant et al, who quote Edmund Leach, Mikel Burley, Charles Michael Byrd, I stopped looking after that. There is also the Times of India article which quotes a study co-conducted by Harvard School of Public Health, Broad Institute of Harvard, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and I'm sorry there is an "Indian crank" here Dr. Lalji Singh of the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology. Their study concludes that " the hitherto believed "fact" that Aryans and Dravidians signify the ancestry of north and south Indians might after all, be a myth." and " there was no scientific proof of whether Indians went to Europe first or the other way round." There is too much mention of Fowler&fowler by me, let us not forget Saravask the bloke who brought this AN/I about has called these sources "marginal or non-specialist sources", and who accuses me of recidivism, is it common for him an admin, to use such pointed language? Am I going to be hanged (used metaphorically) for using such sources. (4) Assuming for the moment that everyone related to the disputing camp (or sources that acknowledge the notability of the dispute by mentioning) such as Leach, Oppenheimer, Flood, Harvard, MIT, Broad, and the "Indian crank" Dr. Lalji Singh and his Centre) etc. are anti-Muslim, does Misplaced Pages censor NOTABLE, RELIABLE, VERIFIABLE, non-FRINGE, and non-UNDUE inclusions just because they are allegedly anti-"some"ism (5) Non-notability of child marriage: previous discussion, also see Fowler&fowler insulting Hindu god Hanuman {6) I have been called tendentious, can an editor who has others who agree to his edits such as user talk:Zondrah89, user:Ratnakar.kulkarni, user:Thisthat2011 User:Raghu-holkar (the latest in the long line of editors who resort to socking when stonewalled, and then get banned, to the glee of those like Fowler&fowler, who calls them trolls-peddlers of garbage, who disappear or get banned.) be called tendentious, just because I haven't disappeared or got banned (so far anyways) like a good garbage pushing troll should.? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 21:30, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support an indefinite topic ban for one of the most bizarrely tendentious editors I have encountered in my six years on Misplaced Pages. user:Saravask has eloquently and precisely summarized what many of us have felt about YK's edits (most of which are on talk pages) ever since he first arrived on Misplaced Pages. People have cut him more slack than any definition of slack allows. It is time to end this; otherwise, productive editors will feel disheartened and be rendered unproductive. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:32, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Tendentious doesn't begin to describe this user, from the looks of things. —Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 13:39, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I think User:Fowler&fowler needs to rethink his stance on various issues he considers as fringe. His views are consistent that many theories are projected by 'by Indian jingoists', 'cranks', etc. Examples: , . He is not ready to consider that there are debates on it ongoing even though sources mention so. About this comment from "The minority is too small and, in many cases, unrecognized as scholarly, to gain mention in the summary history section of a Misplaced Pages FA. None of the people you have quoted including Edwin Bryant or Laurie Patton are historians. As scholars of India none are even remotely in the same league as Colin P. Masica, Barbara D. Metcalf, Thomas R. Metcalf, Romila Thapar, Michael Witzel, Burton Stein], Hermann Kulke, Dietmar Rothermund, Patrick Olivelle or Stanley Wolpert, all of whom have lent their support to the notion Aryan migration." I am not sure if this is the place to reply to this comment as discussion is also going on talk:India page in parallel. The sources themselves mention 'scholarly debates' etc.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 07:04, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Tendentious in the extreme and here only to push a fringe POV which he does aggressively and relentlessly. --regentspark (comment) 14:45, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

  The alteration of quotes, misrepresenting citations by cherry picking comments, misidentifying sources, reframing the debate as something it is not, etc. demonstrated here by Fowler are classic examples of tendentious pov pushing behavior. --regentspark (comment) 14:08, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

There is hardly any discussion to support the assertion that the views presented by editor YK are 'fringe theories', etc. The discussion is still going on on talk:India page. If the user regentspark finds sources that say the theories are from 'cranks' & 'Hindu nationalists', please mention sources here or on talk:India. Such assertions from experienced users without sources, without going to reliable sources noticeboard, without concluding discussion on talk:India are hardly considered appropriate on a vote according to me.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 07:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support, as per all the reasoning above. Given Yogesh's lack of concern and non-constructive edits to the respective articles, he deserves a Topic ban. Ab hijay  ☎ 15:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I am concerned about this user just adding one-sided comment here without being involved at all. Examples of his talk page are: , . I would therefore have comments from this user ignored.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 18:38, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

agreed the whole discussion is being conducted like "my way or the highway " as mentioned above by me few editors are hell bent to ban YK --sarvajna (talk) 19:14, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Yep, attack the editors taking part in the discussion - that's sure to get people on your side ;-) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:23, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

So let me get this right, people who haven't been involved with the dispute can't add their opinions; while those who have been involved with their dispute but are in support of a topic ban are "hell bent" on getting their way. Riiiight. If anything I think its the defence that is going overboard... —Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 19:29, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

1st Boing! said Zebedee if you think you are being funny you are not 2nd. I did not say that people who are not involved should not add their opinion all I meant was "they should not form an opinion just on the basis of what it is being discussed here but rather check out the matter properly" (apologies if I was not clear) --sarvajna (talk) 19:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

This part, started from the user User:Abhijay nowhere involved in this and apparently not too well versed with Misplaced Pages, is going nowhere. Look just two topics above this topic , which perhaps has led to the other user User:Strange Passerby here. As an admin User:Boing! said Zebedee who is on one side of discussion here could have avoided passing comments on someone on the other side like this, when it is clear which side which editor belongs to.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 19:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

My comment here had nothing to do with Abhijay so you'd do well not to assume. I've watched this from afar for a long time, having previously had pleasant interactions with Sitush and Boing. Wait, I suppose in your eyes that makes me involved. —Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 19:55, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I was talking about User:Abhijay, see where this is going? Editors on one side writing about editors on the other side and then more!!इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 20:04, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

No, I don't. You're not making coherent sense. You suggested that I was "led here" because Abhijay posted about me to the board. I'm saying my taking part in this discussion has nothing to do with that. —Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 20:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I stand corrected then. I suggested that perhaps you were checking on his edits and then saw this discussion and then added your opinion. In any case, it does not affect your view. Though still I am not sure how much weight is carried by the opinion of User:Abhijay. Perhaps your could clarify about it, even if his comment does not support your view.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 20:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Guys c'mon. Abhijay is a good faith, but new, editor. He has obviously not long found this board and has tried to comment and contribute. Any competent closing administrator will be able to see that train of events and weight his contribution accordingly. Piling on each other, based on his comment, is not going ot help either him - or you. In fact it's probably pretty off putting all round. Lets chalk this up and move on. --Errant 22:10, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support as I have seen the POV pushing and use of UNDUE sources over an extended period—it will never end voluntarily. However, I am concerned that a topic ban from South Asian history would leave YK more free time to cherry pick negative commentary to inflate stuff like Charles Dickens' Racism and anti-Semitism—the central problem is not so much South Asian history as a misunderstanding of what is DUE. When Dickens died (1870), the world was an extraordinarily different place, and an article highlighting alleged racism and anti-Semitism of Dickens completely misses the point, and should not be tolerated at a neutral encyclopedia. Johnuniq (talk) 02:45, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

  The editor himself says that "When Dickens died (1870), the world was an extraordinarily different place", but does mention the topic here, without commenting on whether the editor disputes any sources and how the sources 'inflate' stuff etc.. The topic in that era, 'inflate stuff', etc. do not matter in any case; and so would be the editor's perception of POV based on Charles Dickens' Racism and anti-Semitism article.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 07:12, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

  The central problem is that for any major topic like India or Charles Dickens there will be literally thousands of sources that could be argued to satisfy WP:RS (and similar sources might be adequate for unsurprising text in other topics). However, when a thousand sources have written about Dickens, it is inevitable that some of them will have chosen to interpret Dickens' writings as racist or whatever. It is not satisfactory for an editor to find such sources and create articles based on them (that is undue cherry picking, aka WP:SYNTH). For major topics like these, there are hundreds of high-quality scholarly sources written by acknowledged subject experts, and it those sources that should be used for a neutral encyclopedia. Johnuniq (talk) 07:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that YK has stopped anyone from editing the page. If you think it is biased, then use the talk page of that article. Have you added any content or made any efforts at it to dispute sources etc. before claiming that he is cherry picking, even without any discussion.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 07:36, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Where is this discussion heading to? Some dispute that needs to be settled on the talk page is being brought up here in support of a topic ban --sarvajna (talk) 08:17, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I am referring to "POV pushing and use of UNDUE sources over an extended period" and explaining that it is easy to cherry pick POV commentary from sources for major topics—that is why a topic ban is required. Johnuniq (talk) 09:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: Really? You imply here that 36,031 bytes page size with 39 references used in it is a baised point of view? Forget the page size. I can stretch articles to huge lengths (just like Dicken's writings). But 39 valid independant references does not seem like something that can be ignored and not included in an article. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 09:41, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

If the Johnuniq has consistently made, for which he has not provided any sources, the similar/same assertions about all users with views on the side of YK on the topic Charles Dickens' Racism and anti-Semitism, his opinion would have weight per me. Otherwise his views are not consistent w.r.t. editors.इति इतिUAनेति नेति Humour Thisthat2011 19:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: Two points i want to say....
  1. As i see, most of the comments by editors here are complaints based on content dispute on various articles. I have observed a few threads here at ANI which keep on saying that content dispute should be addressed on a seperate forum assigned just for resolving those and ANI shall not be used to deal with it. So... if all the complaints are based on content dispute, this is a wrong place! Furthermore, I do not understand why the editors against YK's edits are actually against YK. Most of his edits which are called as "Undue" here actually are well referenced. 50:1 ratio will be called as undue. But i dont see such a huge ratio here. He clearly cites more than one references about various points he includes. I dont call it undue. All editors here should understand that Wikipedian editors should be neutral about the subject, but at the same time keep in mind that Misplaced Pages's aim is to be information bank which can be used for research. If contradictory views of reliable sources present on the topic are not mentioned in the article, i will call that as undue. Also, wikipedia articles are never complete. One must hence always assume good faith in other editors and not disregard the chance that something more of same sort might exist in other places which is yet not covered and brough to wikipedia. Building of articles might take long time and as wikipedians are not bound to do anything for wikipedia, it is unfair to assume that facts mentioned are Undue.
  Come on! Isnt it really good to have all views about a topic mentioned?
  2. As few ediotrs have pointed out above, other few editors who have not been involved in these topics should not vote here as Support or Oppose. I request them to change their views from Support or Oppose to "Comments". Although i do trust that admins who go through this would "read" carefully, i also trust in errors that humans can do. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 08:44, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• 1) No, this is not itself a content dispute, it is about YK's chronic tendentious *behaviour* in content disputes and his repeated attempts to push his own POV against policy and against consensus. As a behavioural issue, this is a perfectly valid venue for it.

• Meant to add - A Misplaced Pages article is not a repository for every opinion ever aired on a subject or a place to publish all views, with each given equal weighting - that's not what balance is all about. A Misplaced Pages article is supposed to balance various views in accordance with the weighting given to them in the real world, by academics and experts as published in reliable sources. Fringe theories and minority views should only be included in proportion to the support they get in the real world, as support by reliable sources. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• 2) Anyone is allowed to support or oppose the suggestion as they please, even if they have not been involved in these topics. In fact, previously uninvolved people examining the presented evidence with fresh eyes can be of great benefit - if YK is innocent of the charges, surely that's what they'll decide when they review the evidence, isn't it? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:04, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

We live in an age when even the craziest assertions can be traced to someone who has already made them in a public forum. It doesn't make the assertion sourced, especially not to a reliable source. I have written most of the history section of the long-standing FA India. It is sourced to impeccable sources. I have tried to use textbooks on the history of India that are used in undergraduate and graduate courses in the best universities around the world and published by well-known academic publishers. The reason for this is that such textbooks have been vetted for balance. Many editors try to insert one-sided points of view into the India article, sourced to poor unreliable sources. They are usually dealt with on the article talk page. However, when an editor does this relentlessly, dozens, indeed scores of dozens, of times, it becomes a behavioral problem. When an editor does this with full knowledge of what he is doing, it becomes a behavioral problem. I don't appear at ANI that often. Perhaps one or twice a year. Let me state very definitively: Yogesh Khandke is likely the worst (and certainly one of the worst) of the tendentious editors I have had the sad privilege of encountering in my six years on Misplaced Pages. If editors here seem against him, he has only himself to blame. He has wasted an enormous amount of time of law-abiding, content creating, editors. It is time for Yogesh Khandke to go. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:43, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Agreed that these days we can find source for assertion made but who is to decide what is crazy and what is not? call it crazy if it not in match with your POV? --sarvajna (talk) 12:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages would not exist if this sort of solipsism were the norm here. Figuring out what to include and what to exclude is not a question of "matching with your POV" (unless a POV is the only thing an editor brings to the encyclopedia). Rather, it is a question of incorporating whatever is the consensus view amongst scholars. "Most historians" captures that adequately. However, the larger issue here is Khandke's tendentious behavior rather than what is "right" or "wrong". I'm perfectly happy to discuss insertion of new material but, when it involves misrepresentation, an "us and them" attitude, alteration of sources, stuff like that, I think it is time to say thanks but goodbye to Khandke. --regentspark (comment) 14:43, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

It's decided by consensus in discussion (see WP:Consensus), and once a consensus has been reached, one should not keep restarting the same content war over and over again. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:09, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

you are right Boing! said Zebedee, but a consensus was never reached, all the sources provided were discarded by few editors neither there was any third opinion on the matter --sarvajna (talk) 12:32, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Consensus does not mean a unanimous decision with everybody agreeing, it means an evaluation of the arguments made in accordance with policy. Having re-read a number of previous disputes, I see YK repeatedly trying to misrepresent sources, and pushing minor sources against arguments made in full compliance with Misplaced Pages's Reliable sources policy. And I see far more than three opinions offered in those disputes. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:38, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, that was extremely dramatic of HumorThisThat to over-react about my comment about Yogesh. Do not assume things the way you think them to be HumorThisThat. So stop being such a dick. Ab hijay  ☎

sarvajna, The history section of the India page was rewritten during a few months in Spring (April through June) 2011 during a lengthy FAR of the page where dozens of experienced FA and FAR hands were watching, and finally supporting. If that is not consensus, what is? Where were you guys then? It has been a year since. All the Hindu nationalist fringe theorists whose opinions you are impaling us with had already had their various epiphanies about the topic by then. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:59, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Fowler you are talking about a discussion that had taken place almost a year ago, are you suggesting that nothing should change after the edits that were made? Consensus was never reached during the last discussion, I am not referring to something that happened over a year ago. Thanks --sarvajna (talk) 14:27, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Replies to Boing! and Fowler: "Once a consensus has been reached, one should not keep restarting the same content war over and over again" is wrong. Consensus can not be necessarily permanant. New experienced/inexperienced editors keep on coming to newer topics. Newer sources can be found. Thus consensus can very well change. (Its written somewhere in some policy. You all probably know where.) I dont understand how re-raising an old point again is a problem. You all very-well give references to age-old fights when you want someone blocked! You don't let bygones as bygones then! Do you? An editor who believes in something and wants in it the article has every right to discuss it to introduce the content he wants. He ofcourse needs consensus. When YK (or anyone) re-raises the discussion, the editors who said no to it last time jump in again and again say no. The intention of re-raising the subject is to partly see whether old editors' views have changed and partly see if new editors have arrived who agree with him. If old editors' views are still same, they need to say that. But that does not mean they close the discussion and not allow newer editors to ponder. Hence i find you all also faulty here. It takes two to fight.
As to my 2nd point above.... Editors are surely welcome to post their views here. But the main topic here is discussion on "topic" ban. Its not a montly meet of I-Hate-YK Club. User:Abhijay is supporting ban for some reason. I havent understood what the reason is. (& why is he now poking in my space?) User:Johnuniq is also supporting ban for some Dicken's article. How is that related? Its like, "Yesterday he bumped me and my icecream fell. Let me say that this has nothing to do with the topic. But i say Block him!" -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 14:03, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is a good point about consensus not being unchangeable - and yes, past consensus decisions can be revisited. But when it's the same points, with the same old arguments, and the same old sources, brought up again and again and again, it really starts to move away from the fair re-examination of past consensus and towards tendentious disruption. As for "You don't let bygones as bygones then! Do you?", if they really were bygones I'd be delighted to let them go. But the whole reason for this proposal is that it is YK who won't get them go, and instead keeps starting up the same old POV-pushing and refusal to follow sourcing and NPOV policy over and over again. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:21, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

And PS: As for why User:Abhijay has offered an opinion, I can't answer for him, but how about the possibility that he clicked on the links provided, read what they linked to, and formed his opinion based on that? You know, try a bit of WP:AGF? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:26, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• What the hell is the matter if I just support a ban. It's my account (yes, i just renamed) , I have the right to edit, so what on earth is the big deal. I've had a view of Yogesh's contributions, and you have to admit that they are extremely disruptive in nature. Now let's stop creating such a huge battleground situation here. It is purely unethical. Arguing all over and moving all over the place isn't helping anyone, nor it is helping yourself. Oh god, this stuff just turned a lot more all-over. First a discussion about a ban about Yogesh, then some guy over-reacts about my comment and then moves on to a blocking of another editor. Good grief guys. Well done for screwing up this whole thing. I will contact an admin about your behavior if this condescends into a more stupid matter. Soviet King (talk) 14:25, 29 March 2012 (UTC) (Moved this comment up to the appropriate section so it's clear what it's replying to - hope you don't mind, Soviet King -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

@Boing! and also others: Lets take this example.
User:Spanglej on 22 February 2012 says at Talk:Charles Dickens "Yogesh, you have banging this drum for more than two years. It seems you are advancing a personally held political position. The article is not a soapbox nor a vehicle for political promotion."
What we have after YK's so called "drum banging", "advancing personally held political positions", "persistent and tendentious modus operandi", etc. is Charles Dickens' Racism and anti-Semitism with numerous reliable sources and a completely valid self-standing article. Various editors opposed him when the Dicken's discussion started. But looking at the present condition of the article we see how YK's editings were right and other editors were just not ready to accept that. I know that they still disagree with points of undue weightage and POV. But numerous independant references on that article give different image than what these other editors hold. The conculsion here is, all the so-called YK's views on Dickens are not really his views. Had other editors been considerate enough to view this material properly at the start, YK wouldnt have needed to be tendentious. Again, it takes two to fight! And after proving himself right at Dickens one should seriously think that others, and not YK, can also be wrong. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 15:56, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

It is not about "right" and "wrong". It is about consensus, reliable sources, correct quotations, balance, cherry-picking, pov-forking and numerous other issues. I'd wager a bet that there is much that is dubious in the article to which you have linked, simply because that is YK's modus operandi (and it can be seen in umpteen comments he appears to have made a various blogs, news websites etc). However, any review of the article by me will have to wait until Sunday. Suffice for now to say that his recently created articles concerning Indian news media/people have been pretty woeful and, yes, non-neutral. - Sitush (talk) 16:21, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Sitush, it is about being right & wrong. Other editors repeatedly said he was wrong and these were his own opinions on Dickens. When given time, he proved his points were not his own but of other reputed writers backing with sources. And to his modus operandi of being tendentious and sometimes aggressive and annoying one should blame opponent stubborn editors. Frankly speaking, if YK is able to fight all these obstinate editors he is doing a brilliant job. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 16:42, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Animesh, you're generally a reasonable editor. But, classifying misquoting and cherry picking sources as a "brilliant job" does not become you. I don't see any problem with reasonable discourse but, when an editor cannot be trusted to correctly quote sources, then we're better off without that editor. It is this 'no holds barred in getting my POV across' attitude that is detrimental to this encyclopedia. And, when that 'no holds barred' editor also calls the theory he does not like a fairy tale or attempts to recast it as an obviously discredited theory, then there is little doubt of that editors intentions (and little doubt that the net result is going to be not good for wikipedia). I should also add that Khandke's tendency to frame debates as an 'us Indians' vs 'them colonialists/westerners/whatever' is also extremely bad for the encyclopedia. Not only does it make otherwise well meaning editors think that 'India' is under attack, it also leads to a tendency to discount scholarly sources and research. And, scholarly sources are the only independent yardstick by which the quality of this encyclopedia is measurable. --regentspark (comment) 17:10, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

@RegentsPark: Firstly sorry that i did not reply to your upper post. I did not notice it. Usually when debatable discussions get this long and non-followable i quit them and say do whatever you want. That is a reason for me calling his work as brilliant. Cherry-picking and misquoting is obviously wrong. But thats what other editors can check and correct. That doesnt mean indefinite ban. I dont see "We have to rework on whatever he does" as a reason for ban. As to tendentious behaviour towards a group of editors i have already said before that those editors are to be blamed for it. It seems to be natural that he has to be aggressive while fighting alone against many others. That is not a reason for indefinite ban. But that can very well be a reason for controlling/monitoring discussions on these topics between YK & those editors. Does it mean over work? Yes! But over work is not reason to ban. These matters are all content disputes which can be handled without ban. Considering the fact that all of his edits are well sourced, we know that he is usually not writing something wrong but is surely bringing a contrasting view than the one that dominates the whole article. I see that as a good thing as it makes article unbiased. If he is banned, how do you propose to handle these points when he is not supposed to talk about them? Wont that be a lose?
When i read Wiki articles i mostly consider them to be full. Even after becoming an editor here i mostly find it difficult to add something to an article which seems full. If YK is being able to add something new to a long standing FA (which one can call as stagnant and something that the then-editors thought of), it is a good thing. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 18:18, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose: Now merely translating my views for clarity as "Oppose" from "Comment". -§§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 19:42, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support solely on the basis of behavior. User's modus operandi is persistent and tendentious; had experience with YK on the Ganges-move odyssey. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 14:10, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment. I have just reverted the latest personal jibe from Humour Thisthat2011 against User:Soviet King (formerly Abhijay), which raised events that were nothing to do with this discussion. I would caution Humour Thisthat2011 to remember his previous bans for aggressive behaviour, and stop the unwarranted personal criticism of a good faith editor who has every right to offer his opinion in this discussion. Humour Thisthat2011, you need to calm down and stop throwing mud at people, stick to discussing the issue at hand, and try assuming good faith occasionally. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:36, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Boing! said Zebedee I would like to disagree, Humour Thisthat2011 had to support his previous argument about Soviet King's unwarranted display of support for the ban without really looking into the matter properly and it was also very much required in view of Soviet King's indirect threat(as written above by Soviet King) and its very much required now--sarvajna (talk) 19:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

And you are guilty of exactly the same kind of Bad Faith behaviour - there are no justifications to the accusations that other contributors have not "looked into it" properly, and nobody has to satisfy you or him that they have. If your only tactics here are to throw dirt at those with whom you disagree, then you really are only damaging your own case. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:56, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Boing! said Zebedee Humour Thisthat2011 provided proper justification but you reverted it --sarvajna (talk) 20:05, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Are personal attacks on the competence of your opponents the only kind of argument you people know? Because that's all that's happening here with the attacks on Abhijay. How about discussing the actual arguments people present here rather than trying to throw dirt at them personally? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:10, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I had already given my closing comment under my vote but I felt I have to reply, what do you mean by "Are personal attacks on the competence of your opponents the only kind of argument you people know?" please refrain from using such language. I was referring to the evidence(the page history) that was given by ThisThat2011 which atleast shows that Soviet King made a decision in a hurry. I will not drag it further, I feel I have made my point. Thanks --sarvajna (talk) 20:24, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

"You people" is a second-person plural phrase, referring in this case to you and ThisThat2011. What on earth is wrong with that? And no, the "evidence" given by ThisThat2011 showed no such thing - no number of diffs can possibly show anything about when somebody read something or whether they were previously aware of an issue. But having said that, I've spoken to ThisThat2011 on his Talk page, and I will accept that he did not mean it as an attack. However, if you wish to carry on criticizing someone else's ability to form their own decisions, then I'll leave it to the closing admin to judge. The closing admin will be someone uninvolved, and will judge consensus based on the policy-based arguments presented on the subject of YK's behaviour, and I would strongly recommend that that's what you should stick to if you wish to influence the outcome. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Sarvajna, stop using such language against Boing. He's clearly trying to help mediate, and I did not use a indirect threat. If I gave you a threat, I would end up getting blocked by Boing! right now. I've wasted enough time here. Good luck to the next person reviewing this.

Arbitrary break

• Comment - can't comment on the topic ban, but something needs to be done, and I think a RfC/U might the direction to take. Yogesh's edition style is clearly tendentious and off-putting. Charles Dickens is a page with between 8000 to 10,000 views per day, yet his edit warring there and the pattern of his contributions to the article and talk - page has driven away editors who would have pitched in for a rewrite of the page . This goes far beyond a content dispute, it's a pattern that drives away editors who are willing to make useful contributions. That's a problem in my view. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:52, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Given the number of times YK has been here, I don't think an RfC/U is needed. Specifically, I call attention to the comments of the last person who blocked YK:

I've blocked Yogesh Khandke for one week, both for the utterly unacceptable comment he made regarding MatthewVanitas's edits and for the other evidence presented above of his ongoing WP:BATTLEGROUND approach to editing. I had considered an indefblock because I strongly believe that users who make the editing atmosphere unpleasant for others are a net negative, no matter what content edits they've made, and we're better off without them. Editor recruiting and retention is a growing issue and combative attitudes are actively destructive. However, I decided to to err on the side of caution... although I consider any return to editing after the week is up in the light of WP:ROPE. Review welcome as always, EyeSerenetalk 11:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

An RfC/U would ultimately just waste time, since they can't result in any formal sanctions, and the ANI history alone should be sufficient for a full topic ban. And if that's not enough, then I strongly recommend reading the discussions on Talk:Charles Dickens. I'll admit I've only read part of them, because it's extensive.

Disclaimer, just to save YK and his defenders time: I'm one of those involved editors who is unfairly prejudiced against YK from the past, who has been engaged in a long-standing witch-hunt against him and others, and who is a part-time member of the Sitush-Boing-Fowler-MatthewVanitas cabal (you know, that cabal that wants Misplaced Pages to follow devilish rules like WP:NPOV and WP:RS). Qwyrxian (talk) 13:36, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. Do an RfC/U, if need be. JN466 13:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

• As Qwyrxian says, a RfC/U is not likely to achieve much. We've gone past the point where it would be useful. Yogesh knows exactly where he stands with regard to his Misplaced Pages life and has known this for some considerable time now, but nonetheless chooses to continue with more of the same. Classic battleground stuff, in fact. As with Zuggernaut and MangoWong (both of whom seem to have decided to retire), he holds some very firm anti-colonial etc views and they massively affect his ability to understand that there are other viewpoints, let alone that his own are fringe-y. His cherry-picking and misquoting is also not a new thing and does rather suggest that it is a deliberate attempt to subvert our policies. RfC/U will merely result in another visit to this noticeboard at some point in the near future. If we're lucky, it may not be until July but past history suggests that he is likely to be around in April and then absent May/June, so I wouldn't bank on it being so long before we are back here. This might be interesting, although I am deaf & cannot hear it. - Sitush (talk) 15:04, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Are you suggesting there is something wrong with having firm anticolonial views, or that such views are "fringe-y"? Last time I looked, colonialism had decidedly gone out of fashion. I will not stand by and watch people who have their own NPOV problems take out an opposing editor through summary justice at AN/I, just because we have more Western than Indian editors here, and each group comes to the topic with their own favourite literature and perspective. --JN466 06:08, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
    • No, that's not it. I understand Sitush's mention of "very firm anti-colonial etc views" to be a coded way of saying that certain editors are overcompensating for past oppressions, and they look for ways to poke the former colonialists. That would be excellent if it were confined to giving a WP:DUE summary from typical scholarly works. However, as noted above, with enormous topics like India or Charles Dickens there are literally thousands of marginally reliable sources that have written from just about every conceivable angle, and cherry picking from those marginal sources allows an editor to insert almost any desired slant. For example, it is extremely undue to pick Dickens out from all the people alive worldwide in 1850 and assert that Dickens was racist—the truth is that the world is a very different place since then, and while an article on how views have changed in the last 150 years would be good, using cherry-picked dubious or primary sources (rather than comprehensive scholarly works written by acknowledged experts) is not satisfactory. Johnuniq (talk) 09:56, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
      • OK, here's my take on this. I consider myself pretty strongly anti-colonialist, and I am of the firm opinion that the British in India committed massive abuses and atrocities. The British Empire was not glorious and heroic, it was a shameful episode of history - as were the colonial conquests of the Dutch, French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. But the answer to that is not to re-write the history of India from a Hindu Nationalist POV - that would be no more acceptable than having, say, the history of the UK written by a British Nationalist group. We need to write our Misplaced Pages articles on India in as neutral and well-documented a way as possible. And to do that, we should weight them based on the best academic sources we have available. We should not allow cherry-picking from all manner of minor and fringe sources to try to right past wrongs or change unfavourable history, and we should have no room for anyone who repeatedly edit-wars to adopt such a tendentious approach. That's what I think is meant here, and it really is the only way an encyclopedia should be written. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:32, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
        • Frankly, I get worried if the first diff given in evidence of an editor's malfeasance sees him citing Cambridge University Press and the Times of India, the second cites the University of Michigan Press, and I then see him accused of citing fringe sources. Fringe sources? If you want to make a case that he cites fringe sources, don't come with University Press sources that actually happen to bear out what he says. --JN466 18:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
          • Nobody here is claiming that *all* the sources he has ever cited are fringe sources - but much of the criticism here is that, amongst other things, he has frequently misrepresented reliable sources (and again, nobody is saying that *every* citation he has given is misrepresented). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:23, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
            • Yeah! No one is saying he is *everytime* wrong. But they are just saying, lets block him so that he can never be wrong neither right! -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 21:31, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
    • @Johnuniq: Why do you call "picking" Dickens by YK as undue? Because Dickens is non-Indian and YK is Indian? Is that the reason? Is there some rule that editors cannot edit articles related to other projects? And whats wrong in writing about Dickens' racism if it existed? Being 150 years old doesnt make it go away. Its like saying after 100 years we should edit Hitler and remove all material related to Holocaust because the world is a very different place since then. As you are free to edit any article here, so is he. Misplaced Pages is not compulsary. If he edits about Dickens' racism he is not bound to write about how racism has reduced in 150 years. Nor is he bound to right about everyone's or anyone else's racism to prove he hasnt unduely picked Dickens. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 22:55, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
      • I don't care where editors come from. In a 100 years there will still be lots of scholarly sources that accurately describe Hitler and the Holocaust. It's getting off-topic so this will be my final explanation here regarding my attitude towards Dickens. What would be very interesting (if suitable sources are available) would be an article on how different are the attitudes between typical people from 1850 and today. If a time machine transported a typical person from just about any country in 1850 and got them to live in society today, it is highly likely we would be shocked by their toilet habits, table ettiquette, views on gender and race equality, and opinions regarding a wide range of human activities. However, to pick one person from 1850 and declare that their attitudes were unacceptable is UNDUE as it fails to mention that something similar could be said for most people from that period. It would be fine to state that Dickens was racist if that is the conclusion from scholarly sources written by acknowledged experts in the topic of Dickens and the history of the period. This is very similar to the Shakespeare authorship question where hundreds of arguably reliable sources have written just about every conceivable conclusion about Shakespeare, and one editor could easily "prove" that Bacon wrote Shakespeare's works, while another could do the same for Oxford (people claiming to be expert have supported seventy different candidates as being the author). The only way for progress to occur at Misplaced Pages is for major topics (where hundreds of marginally reliable sources are available), is for articles to be based on the major scholarly works written by acknowledged experts. Johnuniq (talk) 01:44, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Oooooh dear! You are at the wrong address. You should post your request for new article Difference of attitude between typical people from 1850 and today at Misplaced Pages:Requested articles. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 09:11, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

To Jayen466, Please don't flatter the sources that YK pushes by calling them anti-colonial. The Hindu nationalist cranks that are pushing the "Out of India" theories on various Hindu nationalist website have no history of anti colonial views. They were nowhere to be seen when the anti-colonial struggle was being waged in India by Gandhi and others before him. They made their first notable appearance when they murdered Gandhi. They see a firm connection between "Out of India" and "Get out of India (if you are Muslim)," and are all virulently anti-Muslim. (This also goes for the Hindu nationalists' confused western sympathizers such as Konraad Elst and David Frawley.) The problem with YK other references (Cambridge, University of Michican) is that he quotes them deceitfully. Gavin Flood, for example, that he quotes in support of his views, says clearly at the outset that the most widely-believed theory to date is that of Indo-Aryan migration. He then says that lately there have been some other views, but then goes on to himself support a revised Indo-Aryan migration based on the work of Asko Parpola. What does YK do? He deliberately says nothing about Floods opening paragraph, saying nothing about his revised views; he only mentions the one sentence about their being other views! I'm afraid Yogesh Khandke is about the worst of deceitful POV pushers I've seen on Misplaced Pages. The earlier he is topic banned from South Asian history, the better it will be for Misplaced Pages. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:20, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Fowler, this would not be a place to showcase your political opinion about "Hindu Nationalist" and you know that very well. Please keep your personal opinion out of this discussion and would not suit an admin editor to make statements like "They made their first notable appearance when they murdered Gandhi. They see a firm connection between "Out of India" and "Get out of India (if you are Muslim)," and are all virulently anti-Muslim." also Hindu Nationalist were equally fighting for freedom and your statement "They were nowhere to be seen when the anti-colonial struggle was being waged in India by Gandhi and others before him." is insulting and false. --sarvajna (talk) 11:28, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

would not suit an admin to make statements like "They made their first notable appearance when they murdered Gandhi. They see a firm connection between "Out of India" and "Get out of India (if you are Muslim)," and are all virulently anti-Muslim." Who said Fowler&fowler was an admin? Has the camp defending YK gone to the lengths of making up positions of power for people to discredit them? —Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 11:32, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, my comment was meant to be a generic one. I have made the correction( I hope it had not created a lot of confusion, you are pointing out a small typo but have nothing to write about my comment??)--sarvajna (talk) 11:40, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi sarvajna. I do think your comment has merit, and I think the comment you replied to strayed too far into personal political opinion. But I also think it is important to distinguish between Hindu nationalism and anti-colonialism, because the two are not equivalent (although, of course, it is possible to be in both camps). We are talking here about the pushing of a Hindu nationalist agenda, and are not suggesting sanctioning someone for being anti-colonialist (if we did the latter, I think we'd have to ban just about everyone here). And I think that's something that needs to be made clear to whoever takes on the daunting task of evaluating the consensus here. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:06, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Boing! said Zebedee if I was not clear let me restate it, comments like "They made their first notable appearance....are all virulently anti-Muslim." and ""They were nowhere to be seen when the anti-colonial struggle..." may be Fowlers own opinion and they need not be discussed here, that is all I wanted to convey in my reply. Thanks --sarvajna (talk) 12:32, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Yep, I agree with you on that. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:37, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Though I agree that fowler's opinions should not be discussed here, to be fair to him he was responding to JN466's comments about western editors and Indian editors. Fowler's point was that the material pushed by the Indian editor in this case, YK, is neither representative of what is accepted by academic historians nor is it representative of the view of Indians in general but that it arises from a group that is particularly good at pushing its own agenda. We should focus more on what reliable sources say and less on where a particular editor happens to come from, especially when someone is misquoting and misrepresenting scholarly work (all to easy in this age of google) to push their pov across. --regentspark (comment) 13:26, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Sarvajna, Everything I say is based in sources. Here is Smith, David James (2003), Hinduism and Modernity, Blackwell Publishers, pp. 38–39, ISBN 978-0-631-20862-4, retrieved 2 April 2012 Quote (pages 38-39): "The counter-view, the 'indigenous Aryan' thesis, is upheld by a small group of enthusiastic Westerners, most notably Konrad Elst and David Frawley. The latter's Myth of the Aryan Invasion sold out in 18 days on its first publication in India. But these writers, like the Hindu fundamentalists whose cause they espouse, are vehemently anti-Muslim, and the two positions seem generally tied together the Aryan invasion has been refuted; and the Muslim invasion of several hundred years ago should he reversed." Next time, stop wasting people's time by making needless drama. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Fowler, stop making rude and personal comments.

I am not the only one who thought that you are pushing personal political opinion, if you have a source doesn't mean anything. If a source is all that you require than YK had several sources to his arguments. They made their first notable appearance when they murdered Gandhi??? all Hindu Nationalist are murderers?? also Hindu nationalist were present even during Gandhi and were noteable enough(do you need names?) many Hindu Nationalist were freedom fighters unlike mentioned by you They were nowhere to be seen when the anti-colonial struggle was being waged in India by Gandhi and others before him. --sarvajna (talk) 16:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Like I just aid above, everything I say is based in sources. Here is Hadiz, Vedi R. (2006), Empire and neoliberalism in Asia, Taylor & Francis, pp. 247–, ISBN 978-0-415-39080-4, retrieved 2 April 2012 Quote (p. 247): "Hindu fundamentalism derives its ideological orientation from a kind of Brahmanism that naturalizes a hierarchical structure of the world and, therefore, does not harbour serious ideological contradictions with many forms of political and cultural domination, which explains its various paradoxes. While committed to Hindu nationalism. it never came into serious conflict with British colonial rule and, rather, opposed anti-colonial struggle. While subscribing to the Gandhian vision of development, its adherents were responsible for Gandhi's death;" Are you sure you want to carry on this argument? I'm getting a headache reading your boldface lettering. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:29, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support The Ganges move debacle was a long time ago. If Yogesh hasn't learned how to contribute constructively by now, he must have decided not to change. Tendentious editors like Yogesh are a poison to the community, as Saravask's evidence shows. --JaGa 17:21, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
• Request Please make it a bit clearer what is being supported/opposed. Obviously those opposing want no sanction, while those supporting are wanting a topic ban per the original request, namely South Asian history. However, subsequent comments have claimed a wider problem, and some of the more recent supports are worded in a way that suggests that something more is being supported. Johnuniq (talk) 23:54, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support per Fowler&fowler comments above; the danger of the disruption moving elsewhere is also noted and it might be best to add probation on disruptive editing to the ban proposed here. ----Snowded 06:16, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Tendentious in the extreme and here only to push a fringe POV which he does aggressively and relentlessly. He doesn't seem to want to work collaboratively. I would suggest general ban. Span (talk) 10:43, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

  Comment - just to note that nothing is changing even while this thread continues. This revert of a YK edit is a direct consequence of the subtle "colonial" POV pushing - the press agency in question was effectively shut down by the government of the newly-independent government of India, as per statements in sources that YK seemed to choose to ignore. The article was poor when created by YK and still needs some work but there really is no need to phrase things as they were prior to my revert. As a consequence of my expansion the lead section needs a rewrite, but the gratuitous insertion of "colonial" is not the way to do it. - Sitush (talk) 23:50, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Sitush, I dont see any harm in using some adjective for India in that sentence. But if you object using "colonial India" do you prefer "pre-Independence India" instead? -§§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 05:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Have you seen what YK has done now? Leads are supposed to summarise articles. I am crap at writing them, but nowhere in the body of that article is there any mention of this claptrap. - Sitush (talk) 23:18, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Neutral comment from main author of Charles Dickens' Racism and anti-Semitism‎ aka User:WickerGuy

Over the past few weeks I have developed a low-key form of a Love–hate relationship with User:Yogesh Khandke whom I find alternately fascinating, frustrating, earnest, exasperating, clever, and obtuse. He both says things well worth considering and can be wildly over-the-top. I can never tell how much of the latter is due to poor command of English or not. Perhaps he is like a character in a Greek tragedy, a man with noble qualities but with a serious Hamartia (character flaw) that undermines his better qualities.

I have little expertise on matters Indian beyond having thoroughly enjoyed the Bhagavad-Gita, watched The Jewel in the Crown (TV series), A Passage to India (film), a couple of good Bollywood films, and worked through my brother's bad experience with a prominent Indian guru whom I shall not name, so I can't comment on YK's edits there but I can comment on his Charles Dickens work.

Very early in the Dickens' disputes, I had decided that while YK was disruptively ignoring consensus (to the point of driving away good editors from the article which is a very serious matter of concern) that as Polonius said of Hamlet Though this be madness there is method in it. Somehow, I felt YK had to be simultaneously given his proper due (allowing his legitimate points in) while also reining in his excessive POV. Both editor User:MistyMorn and I agreed that the main article on Dickens should not have excessive space taken up discussing is racist attitudes (as they were relatively uninfluential on the English public), but that a fork article would be a good idea as long as enough people were involved to prevent it from being a WP:POVFORK or as one editor (rather ungenerously) put it, YK's "hobby horse". (As there has been both one full-length book on Dickens' xenophobia and it is mentioned in the Oxford Dictionary of English Literature there is certainly a basis for discussing it somewhere on WP.) (It was YK who created the article, but he was not the first to propose it. I wished he had waited a bit longer to get consensus on it, but I supported it.) I believe in this article I have been successful at accomplishing both aims. One of YK's very best contributions to the article was Charles_Dickens'_Racism_and_anti-Semitism#Reconciliation and I am grateful to YK for having added it to the article. (He quotes my complement above.) One of his very worst proposed contributions was trying to interpret writer Patrick Bratlinger as saying that "Dickens spawned a whole new genre of hate literature". This is a blatant misinterpretation of Mr. Bratlinger and clearly a "fringe" assertion.

I am a little concerned that editor User:Animeshkulkarni cites the excellence of the Dickens fork article in a manner that suggests the article is mostly Yogesh's work. It is largely my own rather free adaptation and revision of his work, which both involved some fertilizing (using YK's stuff & sources) and some pruning and weeding (rejecting other stuff of YK), and I respectfully disagree with User:Johnuniq that the article in its current form involves inappropriate synthesis and cherry-picking, though further discussion of that point should go on that article's talk page. Finally, I am disappointed that Yogesh is comparing anyone at Misplaced Pages with metapedia where he has also been maligned. Metapedia is a white supremacist Misplaced Pages, and (as I have already communicated privately to Yogesh) the fact that both editors here and there both have issues with Yogesh is more or less equivalent to noting both liberal columnnist Derrick Z. Jackson and also the Ku Klux Klan have both been highly critical of Al Sharpton. (The metaphor I used in private communication was that both Winston Churchill, Communist film-maker Sergei Eisenstein and Adolf Hitler were all fond of Disney's film of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937 film) but IMO my new analogy drives the point home more effectively.) US politics is filled these days with surreptitious and specious comparisons with one person or another to Hitler, and we don't need such comparisons on Misplaced Pages, which indirectly borders on personal attack.--WickerGuy (talk) 17:40, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Hello WickerGuy! When i almost appreciated and gave all credit to YK for the new Dickens' article i did not want to demean any of the contributions by you and other editors too. But i wanted to stress out to other editors in this ANI fight of how YK was the reason for start of this article and how without his so-called hammering, tendentious, annoying behaviour this article would have had little chance of being what it is. Just like how YK's editings on Dickens were rejected at start by reasons of "drum beating", they are been done here on Indian articles too by giving little thought of how they could also be right. All the defects you mentioned in his editings like misinterpreting can be solved by other editors as you all did and as i mentioned somewhere above. I certainly dont see this flaw as some reason for any ban but i do appreciate how he rattles stable stagnant articles and brings a viewpoint which at times is overlooked for long. -§§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 18:26, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

No apology necessary, but thanks (same re your gracious and kind notice on my page). If YK could develop a better style of interacting with other editors, the better parts of his overlooked viewpoint could be more easily incorporated into WP. The origins of the Dickens fork article are a bit "dodgy" as the Brits would say, but I think the results are good. It is quite true as you say that YK's persistence was largely the origin of the Dickens fork article which is now in (I think) fairly good shape, but I'm afraid it is also true that his behavior is the origin of the article being tagged with a POV template at the top (which YK has made inappropriate objections to) and at least one or two editors were contemplating nominating the article for deletion.--WickerGuy (talk) 18:55, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate WickerGuy taking the time to write down this long reflection on Yogesh Khandke's participation. I think we are getting closer to the nub of things. I am certain that without Yogesh Khandke, Misplaced Pages would be poorer. While his bloody-mindedness may not always be on target (whose is?), there are enough times when it is. --JN466 23:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, what you're saying is that wikipedia is made richer by an editor who misrepresents sources, deliberately changes quotes from sources, continuously reframes debates (he is doing this in his latest post by conflating Aryan invasion and Aryan migration), all to push a pov that is, even in India, associated with right wing fringe groups. Baffles me, this sort of logic. --regentspark (comment) 00:43, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The topic ban we are discussing here is not about the Dickens page. YK's defenders can have him on that page until both time and times are done. But, in South Asian history, where I have some expertise and experience, he is easily among the worst of the deceitful, biased, and time-wasting editors I have dealt with in my six years on Misplaced Pages. Others before him have all been topic banned or indefinitely banned. When his South Asia topic ban is in place, he will be available, even more unreconstructed and many-splendored, on the Dickens page for the enrichment of your Misplaced Pages experience. This is really win-win. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:19, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Short version: as per WickerGuy. Long version: This is the first ANI I've participated in, and I feel in a strange position. My dealings with YK have been largely confined to the Dickens page, where my contribution was almost entirely restricted to the search for a pragmatic solution to unblock a longstanding and depressing virtual standoff between YK and just about everyone else, which was itself becoming quite Dickensian. Like WG, I felt that the sort of subject matter which YK was anxious to shine the floodlights on, so to speak, was indeed of genuine encyclopedic note, but that his presentation and communication strategies were deeply misguided. As a proponent of -- rather than contributor to -- the present subarticle I feel WickerGuy deserves a really big round of applause both for his editorial work and, especially, the patience and understanding he has shown in trying to communicate constructively with YK. I recognize in myself some of the mixed feelings WG describes. Leaving aside the politics of POV, my impression is that YK hurts himself and his own causes by using quite inappropriate firepower (I believe this is the first time I've ever been accused of 'denialism') blasted off at all and sundry in a sort of me versus the rest of the world scenario, with replies -- often at cross purposes -- to multiple points and editors grouped together in a single paragraph, in such a way that it's rather difficult for everyone else to engage in a meaningful dialogue. How much of this is deliberately disruptive, how much a good-faith attempt to get a hearing? I've sometimes felt quite exasperated... But now that the sort of information which YK so wanted to be made available is present in a well-written, reasonably stable (albeit controversial) subarticle carefully supervised and authored by WG based on material largely gathered by YK the signs of systematic disruption here appear to be a thing of the past. Wasn't there an easier way of getting where we are now? Continuing to assume good faith, my hope is that YK will, more generally, come to see that it can be in his interests to relax a bit and start assuming some good faith in others (he's explained to me that certain misunderstandings were quite genuine, and I have no reason to doubt that). I also have a lot of sympathy with editors who are currently exasperated by the YK all guns blazing approach. I feel that one possible solution, if YK were willing, might be for him to allow himself be adopted by an enterprising and experienced editor (of the calibre of WG) who has sympathies with some of the issues which concern him so much. Adoption might entail mutual agreement to focus for a while on topic areas where it's easier for him to find consensus (while temporarily resting other, more contentious areas where he's locally lost goodwill from other editors). I feel that, with the right sort of guidance regarding communication and impartial implementation of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, he could be surprised by how much he can achieve with a lot less hassle. Having said that, I think it's really important for him to acknowledge the need for a constructive change in good-faith outlook and style. My 2 cents, —MistyMorn (talk) 21:48, 2 April 2012 (UTC).

To clarify my view on the "POV fork" issue: I think the article can be a legitimate subarticle (as distinct from "fork"), broadly along the same lines as Wagner controversies, even though Dickens's rather shocking racist views are far less widely publicized or influential than Wagner's. I'm not especially enamoured of the current title though. I've argued that Dickens deserves several other thematic subarticles, including questions surrounding other aspects of his his social involvement and influence. —MistyMorn (talk) 21:48, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Strong Support ban in all areas. Extremely tendentious editor, a perfect example of WP:CRUSH with novel interpretations of policy. As one editor has stated, it's sometimes easy to attribute his misreadings and IDIDNTHEARTHAT to the fact that he's a non-native English speaker. I came to the conclusion that he encourages that perception as yet another tactic of his strategy of attrition, because in other interactions he's quick to grasp what is being discussed it it's to his advantage. I interacted with him on the Charles Dickens page (which BTW is a disgrace to Misplaced Pages the last I checked) to try to bring it up to at least good status, but his edit-warring behavior and tendentiousness caused me to retreat after only a few days. I have dealt with his like before, and I don't have another two years of my life to waste trying to impose WP policies on someone who's only interested in their POV-pushing. He doesn't care about any other part of the page except for his particular interest, which in the case of the Dickens page was to expose the colonialistic racism at the core of everything Dickens wrote. It is gaming editors such as him who cause others to walk away from Misplaced Pages in disgust. And IMO the new Dickens article is nothing but a POV fork and should be deleted. Any valid points should be neutrally handled in the main article and given due weight. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:08, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Note I believe this proposal has been discussed to death. The discussion has gone off-topic, even off-off-topic. I believe we need input from a closing admin. For what it's worth, there are 13 support votes for a topic ban (of at least 6 months duration) for YK in South Asian history-related topics. There are 4 oppose votes. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:52, 3 April 2012 (UTC) PS I had not counted my own vote as it had become inconspicuous as a result of this edit by Yogesh Khandke. Now restored. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:00, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Fine. When WP decides to block him indefinitely, let us know and we'll get to work on the Charles Dickens article. As one of the two greatest authors in English literature, his article should be an FA, but it's not even a good article, and is likely to remain that way as long as YK is allowed to edit it. Tom Reedy (talk) 12:50, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose: Yogesh Khandke brings excellent, A grade content to Misplaced Pages that no one else is either capable of bringing, moslty because they are blinded by their POV. Dickens' racism towards Indians is an excellent example of this. Thanks to Yogesh Khandke, we now have a better article on Charles Dickens which a potential 1.3 billion Indians, most of whom have never ever heard of Dickens will find interesting to read. This cabal mentioned above almost has an orwellian zeal to maintain "NPOV" which makes it impossible for them to see the slightest criticism of their British heroes. Unfortunately, almost every British hero in colonial affairs (and sometimes outside of colonial affairs) between 1818 and 1947 is by definition a villan in Indian eyes. Incidentally Saravask, the person pushing for this ban, has pigeonholed people into a category of people who should be killed off. ] He tells his buddies that these people should be hunted down by the FBI or the CIA or the MI5 and be killed. The Misplaced Pages system/ANI is setup in a way that some people will never get fair treatment. In many ways it is not too dissimilar from the British colonial government and their system of justice which let off General Dyer largely unpunished for the most heinous crime in Indian history. Here's that relevant video from one of the most historically accurate films - Gandhi. Video Bob1781 (talk) 09:40, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Note: Bob1781 appears possibly to be an SPA. - Sitush (talk) 11:08, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

As of 11:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC) a single edit account: Bob1781 (talk · contribs) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Note: Bob1781 has been blocked as a checkuser-confirmed sock of Yogesh Khandke. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:02, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Why do you guys behave like this? If someone complaints against you on ANI you shout its "content dispute" and ask to close the discussion and take it somewhere else. Then one of you just blocks the editor who is complaining by giving some excuse of edit war so then he cant respond to the ANI thread. Example case. Someone (me) proposes that disambiguation pages related to Ganga should be changed and you rudely just try to throw away those comments. When still explained further you close the discussion saying its not the right place. Someone like YK says something and you ppl always ignore it because you have had fights with him before. Now some unknown Bob1781 comes and posts something what you have to say is he is a Sock, probably of YK. But what are all these ppl saying? Oh lets trash them! Either they are at wrong place or rude or single purpose accounts. Its like some professor dumbing someone's journal because the page margins are not right! §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 05:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Regretful Support Though none of the Dickens' editors seem innocent, alas. Misplaced Pages is ill-served by some of the related clearly unsourced or improperly sourced POV pushing zeal evinced. I also note this !vote is elicited by the post above implying that it is somehow improper to see NPOV as being a proper goal, when it is one of the "pilllars" of Misplaced Pages. I would suggest that he be topic banned from colonialism and racism articles broadly construed, per what I read above. I think he would benefit, moreover, from studying the racialism in the Indian literature to gain some historical perspective on the history of racism in that sub-continent. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support. This user is incorrigible, tendentious, and still doesn't get it, after multiple trips to this board. In this very discussion, he is accusing others of 'hanging' him, attacking him 'with knives', and of wanting a 'submissive, fawning Indian', when even other Indian editors have blasted his inability to properly weigh views and to compromise. He has wasted the time of dozens of productive editors around Dickens and other hot-button Indian nationalist topics. His time here has long passed. Shrigley (talk) 16:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

National Autism Society

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I request a block on the National Autism Society (NAS) IP address for a period of one week (as agreed with the society's computer manager). The address is 217.204.11.194.

The society's network is open to both staff and to patients. Recently there have been a significant amount of "reordering" of junction numbers on various British motorways (see contributions page at here. I telephoned to the society's computer manager and both he and I are of the opinion that these changes are being carried out by a patient who is suffering from autism (and who therefore will not respond to normal reasoning). The manager quite reasonably challenged me to "prove" my assertion that the NAS network was the "guilty" party and after I led him through the Misplaced Pages audit trail, he proved very cooperativce. He is quite happy that there be a one week block on the IP address so that the patient concerned will get bored trying to make any changes. A study of the changes associated with that address suggest that few changes, if any, are appropriate to Misplaced Pages's aims and therefore neither Misplaced Pages nor the society will be harmed. Martinvl (talk) 19:58, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

What might work better is if the Society's IP address(es) are indefinitely soft-blocked, thus allowing those with accounts to continue to edit while avoiding vandalism from unregistered users. IIRC, this has been done before for other institutions, particularly schools. However, the technical officer/manager/whoever you're talking to should probably email such a request to info-enwikimedia.org or functionaries-enlists.wikimedia.org from an official email address, so if any questions arise from the IP we can be confident in saying "ask your manager, they're the ones who requested the block." Hersfold non-admin 21:34, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Wait a second, you called them? Whoa there Nelly, let's back the truck up a little bit here (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:51, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support Hersfold's suggestion of an indef soft block. That way genuine editors can continue editing from that IP, and anyone minded to engage in vandalism can be dealt with individually. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:11, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm finding this somewhat disquieting. As far as I can tell, the National Autistic (sic) Society doesn't have "patients" and would not use such terms as "suffering from autism". It does provide community and residential services for people with autism. There may well be a range of constructive and respected Misplaced Pages editors among its service users. I can't see that it's constructive to deter any future such editors by confronting them with an indefinite soft-block placed because of a batch of edits of motorway junction numbers made in late March 2012. NebY (talk) 17:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

If a soft block comes with an automatic notice something along the lines of "You must create an account to edit from this address" if someone tries to edit, then I can't see it being a problem. (And yes, I'm an Autie, too!) Pesky (talk) 20:35, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

It's certain, I'm sure, that there must be Misplaced Pages veterans amongst the membership of the National Autistic Society. After all, to paraphrase Mel Brooks, without aspies, trannies and queers, there is no Misplaced Pages. :) --Tristessa (talk) 04:28, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

After examining some edits, I'd oppose any action until Martinvl can demonstrate that this editing is actually vandalism. This fundamental prerequisite step has been overlooked. 217.204.11.194 stands accused of editing wikipedia. Penyulap ☏ 23:23, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd also like to see Martinvl establish that "a patient who is suffering from autism ... therefore will not respond to normal reasoning", a presumption which might explain why after warning the user twice Martinvl called the NAS to discuss how the user could be blocked. NebY (talk) 19:32, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Do we not have any guidelines discouraging users from sleuthing/contacting people on their own? I would be surprised if this has not been discussed within the context of schools.. I also strongly object to the sweeping characterization of all people on the autistic spectrum as suffering people who cannot behave nor respond to anything. Kansan (talk) 16:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Although autism varies widely in severity, I agree that the phone call in question is either being misrepresented or invented, as explained by NebY. NAS is not a hospital and the people who work there are, for the most part, not autistic; moreover, most autistic people capable of editing Misplaced Pages are also quite capable of having a conversation about their actions. Talking about an indef soft block of the entire NAS in response to unproven vandalism by a single IP is premature, and is nothing like the persistent vandalism by many people that we see from a typical high school. Dcoetzee 09:51, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit warring on several articles

( Section titles here must not be prejudicially phrased. Converted heading to neutral, w/ anchor to original.  – OhioStandard (talk) 10:07, 1 April 2012 (UTC) )

I am reposting this because it was archived before it was resolved. There is a user, Arzel, who has a pattern of deleting sourced content over and over with weak arguments. Most of the deletes appear WP:IDONTLIKEIT. He has contributed very little content (maybe a comment or two), and that content poorly sourced (didn't bother to include a full reference description). A few editors have confronted him about the deletions, and discussed it at length, including myself, but without much result. He has been most disruptive on the hydraulic fracturing pages, but recently followed me to another page I was working on. Discussions of behavior can be found on Talk:Hydraulic_fracturing and Talk:Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_States. The page he followed me to was Philadelphia Water Department. I had warned him a while back and just let him know that I was reporting him for disruptive editing, though I didn't use a tag. I thought he had calmed down last week, but he's back, and wasting everyone's time. Smm201`0 (talk) 23:52, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The editor Smm201'0 seems to think that it is his/Her duty to destroy the Hydraulic Fracking industry by inserting every negative story or complaint about the industry into related articles. He/She then added unrelated fracking information into the Philadelphis Water Department article here. Is it sourced? Sure, does it have anything to do with the Philadelphis Water Departtment? No. The previous edit follows a clear WP:COAT model. The article is about the PWD, and there have been some water quality issues, he/she then adds in a bunch of information unrelated to the PWD talking about Hydraulic Fracking because of concerns regarding Fracking and ground water. Use of Misplaced Pages for environmental activism should not be tollerated. Arzel (talk) 00:48, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

The editor also put most (maybe the whole thing) of this article into the Hydraulic fracking article and has yet to adress why the all of the anti-fracking information needs to be so many places. Arzel (talk) 01:02, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I have had similiar problems with Arzel. If you look at the page Talk: Seamus (dog), editors have repeatedly asked Arzel not to remove infomation that is relevant and sourced to mainstream media sites. We have tried to talk to Arzel, but he continues to remove material that his doesn't like.Debbie W. 15:22, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it does look like a similar issue. Also, to clarify a remark above, the environmental page was split off from HF without discussion, so I brought it back and started a discussion. There were also other attempts to remove negative environmental info from HF page. I agreed to condense the environmental info on the main page and have been working at that. Disruptions delay that work.Smm201`0 (talk) 17:16, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Arzel is continuing to make disruptive edits on the Philadelphia Water Department page and is leaving messages at my talk page rather than discussing the article on its own talk page.Smm201`0 (talk) 12:23, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Completely uninvolved and disinterested party checking in. The issue appears to be content driven and may require either an expert to intervene or having a RFC devoted to individual articles. This entire spat brings to mind the directive found at the bottom of the page: "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:25, 1 April 2012 (UTC).

The editor SMM201'0 seems to think that the removal of sourced Original Research and Synthesis of material is disruptive. I have asked the editor what the "Haliburton Rule" regarding Hydraulic Fracking has to do with the Philidelphia Water Department, but the editor has yet to respond how it is related. None of the sources he is using mention the PWD. There is some concern that HF may be responsible for some issues of water quality in Philadelphia, but that is no reason to proceed to lay out a lengthy argument against HF within the PWD article. It follows a clear WP:COAT and WP:SYNTH pattern. Present the arguement and then go off on an unrelated tangent that has no sourced connection to the PWD. The editor seems to have a strong feeling regarding HF and has been editing from what appears to be an activist approach in order to present HF in as negative of a light as possible violating several WP policies. Arzel (talk) 03:36, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Arzel deleted large sections of text and references again today. I would welcome administrator input. Arzel has wanted to discuss the article on my talk page rather than the article's talk page. I have answered on the article's talk page. Arzel is also being disruptive on the HF pages, see their talk pages as well.Smm201`0 (talk) 13:39, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I have put in a request for comment regarding the PWD page. There is a larger pattern, however.Smm201`0 (talk) 15:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion on other articles, but regarding Philadelphia Water Department, Smm201, your homework assignment is to read and understand Misplaced Pages:Coatrack. Hydraulic fracturing has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the article; even the mention of a minor water quality issue is of questionable notability, but I have left it in for now as a compromise. A mild scolding to both sides for edit warring, and if you don't like what I've done, take it up with me here. -RunningOnBrains 07:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to review the article on the Philadelphia Water Department. The water quality issue regarding iodine-131 is a big deal in Philadelphia. A lot of people are affected by the water quality. Because of the politics involved, the PADEP and EPA's reports are not always consistent. EPA recently took over the investigation. WP is one place people can read info from the EPA, PADEP, and other sources and come to their own conclusion. The problem now is that the article is now inaccurate. Even if you and Arzel didn't like what the page said, every fact was well documented. The EPA reported levels above the acceptable level several times from 2007 to 2011, and said that Philadelphia's levels were among the highest in the US. The Water Department report actually talks about the Safe Drinking Water Act and says the iodine-131 is coming from effluent from treatment plants. Thyroid cancer patient urine has been suggested as an explanation, but they are still trying to pin the source down. The article does not accurately state the uses of iodine-131. I can understand wanting to punish me for edit warring and asking for intervention...but you are also making the article inaccurate. But I asked for that I suppose. Again, thanks for taking the trouble. Smm201`0 (talk) 16:31, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing inaccurate about the article as it stands now. It is properly sourced, and all statements (in the water quality section, I have not vetted other sections) are verifiable. I can not say the same for the previous version of the page, which was in gross violation of WP:SYNTH.-RunningOnBrains 16:44, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Verifiability was not an issue on this page. All statements had RS. The page seems to have gone from alleged synthesis to censorship. Not sure that's an improvement.Smm201`0 (talk) 20:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

You obviously have not completed your homework assignment. Do you actually understand what we mean when we say you are using improper synthesis of sources and using the article as a coatrack? Because you are undeniably violating these policies/guidelines. An article should cover a subject, not serve as a soapbox for independent conclusions critical of something only (extremely) tangentially related.-RunningOnBrains 20:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Honest...I did my required reading. Really. A very early draft might have toed the line, but at this point it was statements and refs. I had cut down on the verbiage too to balance the focus. The PWD itself had posted information about these issues and discussed them on their web site, including the Safe Drinking Water Act, the limits of what it did and didn't know about the origin of the iodine-131, and a warning about iodine-131 levels because they were periodically over the EPA limit. The PWD has been holding public meetings about it, and it is getting news coverage (see deleted refs). The Delaware River Commission has gotten involved. But...thanks again for taking the time to comment, even if we disagree.Smm201`0 (talk) 21:21, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

"We," eh? You two know each other? I was wondering why a neutral party would take such drastic action as deleting most of the content of a page, and call it a compromise. It didn't make sense.Smm201`0 (talk) 00:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC) I'm going to revert the deletion to allow others to more easily read what's there and comment. I'll also check again to make sure each statement is well sourced. Let's allow a consensus to emerge.Smm201`0 (talk) 00:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know Runningonbrains, so I am not sure where you are comming to that assumption. However, it is clear that other agree with my view that you are violating Synth and continue to do so on that article. Arzel (talk) 00:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Smm201`0, RunningOnBrains was using the royal we, referring to all Wikepedians. It's a common thing when referring people to our (in the collective sense) policies and guidelines. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Your actions are unacceptable, and I have reverted your unilateral re-addition of material. I have never had prior interaction with Arzel of which I am immediately aware, and I called it a compromise because in my honest opinion the minor water quality issue does not deserve mention at all in this article.

The problem is not that your text is not sourced, as I have stated clearly above. Since you are not capable of seeing the flaws in your own writing on your own, allow me to point-by-point go through your material to point out all the flaws:

• In April 2011, Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) found elevated iodine-131 levels in Philadelphia's drinking water. Nothing wrong here; a statement of fact about the subject of the article.
• In response to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) findings, the Philadelphia Water Department posted a notice that Iodine-131 had been found in the water supply. Repetitive, probably unnecessary to the article.
• Iodine-131 is associated with the treatment of thyroid cancer, nuclear energy, and is a popular radioactive tracer used to determine the location of fractures created by hydraulic fracturing, We have already hit a serious problem. Here you have taken a sourced statement of fact ("Iodine was found in the drinking water") and modified it with another sourced fact ("Iodine is used in hydraulic fracturing") to reach an implied conclusion ("The iodine found in the water was a result of hydraulic fracturing"), a statement which is not supported by any source. This is the definition, to the letter, of improper synthesis of sources.
• The National Cancer Institute has reported that children exposed to iodine-131 may have an increased risk of thyroid cancer. Another blatant violation of WP:SYNTH; you have now attempted to imply that the iodine in the water in this specific circumstance may be dangerous, a fact which is not supported by any source.
• Initially the Philadelphia Water department attributed the presence of Iodine-131 to nuclear energy production and the March 2011 Japanese nuclear incident (Fukushima Nuclear Incident). Iodine-131 was later found in the Wissahickon Creek, and at several sewage treatment plants along the creek near Philadelphia in late July 2011, after the fallout from the Japanese incident would have decayed. Iodine-131 had been found in several Philadelphia drinking water samples before. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) records showed that Philadelphia's iodine-131 levels were the highest in the last decade in the set of those measured at 59 locations across the United States. All of this can be succinctly summed up in the way I have in the article: "Originally this was suspected to be related to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster, but it was later determined to be due to patients undergoing iodine therapy for thyroid cancer."
• EPA records show readings above the acceptable limit of 3 pCi were recorded at Queens Lane Water Treatment Plant on three occasions and Belmont Water Treatment Plant on four occasions since October 2007. This is specifically contradicted by this source: "The EPA's drinking water standard is three picocuries per liter - but only over a long-term average . A single sample that was higher would not constitute an excess."
• Readings at Baxter Water Treatment Plant were lower. Nothing specifically wrong with this sentence, but it becomes unnecessary with other offending material cut out.
• The EPA also found elevated levels of Iodine-131 in the water discharged from water treatment plants in nearby Ambler and Abington in April 2011. These places are not Philadelphia, so I don't see how this is relevant.
• The EPA is concerned about radionuclide levels in drinking water. In Pennsylvania, much of this wastewater from hydraulic fracturing operations is processed by public sewage treatment plants which are not designed to remove the natural or man-made radioactive components of this waste, which is often released into major rivers. I suppose that the EPA is "concerned with radionuclide levels in drinking water" could be inferred from the letter cited below, and I suppose we could infer that they were concerned about Philadelphia's water specifically, but on Misplaced Pages we are not allowed to assume.
• Some are concerned that this provides the opportunity for radioactive waste to enter public water supplies. "Some" is a weasel word, and the source has nothing to do with Philadelphia; another example of a WP:SYNTH violation.
• In March 2011 the EPA asked the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection (PDEP) to require "community water systems (CWSs) near publicly owned treatment works (POTWs) and centralized wastewater treatment (CWT) facilities receiving Marcellus Shale wastewater to conduct sampling immediately for radionuclides." They note that "in previous monitoring, radionuclides were not detected or were detected at levels less than one-half of maximum contaminant levels," but that "the CWS have not sampled after the introduction of Marcellus Shale operations." The EPA letter adds that "Discharges from these operations could increase radionuclide levels substantially." Sourced, but why is this relevant? This is all from a letter to the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection, not addressed to the Philadelphia Water Department, and certainly not in relation to the above-mentioned levels of iodine. WP:SYNTH rears its ugly head again.
• In 2011, the US Environmental Protection Agency, Pennsylvania’s Department of Environmental Protection and the Philadelphia Water Department were working together to test surface water (rivers and streams) and discharge from water treatment plants. By June 2011, the EPA had ruled out hospital sources and the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster as causes and were still trying to identify the source. In July 2011 and March 2012 the Philadelphia Water Department attributed the elevated levels to thyroid cancer patients' urine because it was found in wastewater plant effluent. Again, neatly summed up by the sentence I left in the article, avoiding unnecessarily verbose step-by-step language.
• The Philadelphia Water Department reports that Philadelphia's drinking water meets the standards set by the Safe Drinking Water Act. This is unsourced, but true and verifiable, as it is covered in the source I mentioned above. You have neatly used this sentence to build up the false premise that you are still talking about the Philadelphia Water Department, as is immediately apparent in the next sentence...
• The EPA and the state authorities generally have the authority "to regulate discharge of produced waters from hydraulic operations" (EPA, 2011) under the Clean Water Act, which is regulated by the National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) permit program. Instantly back to facts unrelated to Philadelphia. You are attempting to synthesize the statement that the iodine found in Philadelphia's drinking water had anything to do with hydraulic fracturing, which, I reiterate, is not found in any reliable source.
• Although this waste is regulated, oil and gas exploration and production (E&P) wastes are exempt from Federal Hazardous Waste Regulations under Subtitle C of the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act (RCRA). Wastewater from hydraulic fracturing contains toxins such as total dissolved solids (TDS), metals, and radionuclides. Straying even further from the topic at hand...
• Companies are not required to provide the names of chemicals in "proprietary" formulas, so the chemical lists provided on company web sites are incomplete and the substances are not monitored by EPA. Congress has been urged to repeal the 2005 regulatory exemption ("Halliburton Loophole") under the Energy Policy Act of 2005 by supporting The FRAC Act, but has so far refused. The oil and gas industry contributes heavily to campaign funds.5 The FRAC Act would eliminate the exemption and might allow producing wells to be reclassified as injection wells placing them under federal jurisdiction in states without approved UIC programs. The FRAC Act was re-introduced in both houses of the 112th United States Congress. In the Senate, Sen. Bob Casey (D-PA) introduced S. 587 on March 15, 2011. In the House, Rep. Diana DeGette (D-CO) introduced H.R. 1084 on March 24, 2011.As of March 2012 Congress had not yet passed either of The FRAC Act bills We are now in the complete opposite direction of an article describing Philadelphia Water Department. This is the most blatant violation of WP:COATRACK I have ever seen an author try to defend. There are exactly zero sources that relate any of this to Philadelphia, its water, or the specific incident this whole section started off with.
• On March 28, 2012, the Philadelphia Water Department reported that during the period between April 2011 and February 2012, iodine-131 levels were lower in the Queen's Lane (from graph, average about .5 pCi; highest about 1.5 pCi) and Belmont facilities (average about .4 pCi; maximum about 1.4 pCi). No iodine-131 was detected at the Baxter facility. You clearly do not understand what a box and whisker plot is, and so you have introduced statements that are not supported by the linked source.
• The report notes that wastewater plant effluent has been confirmed as one source of the iodine-131; other potential pathways have not been confirmed. The article on Philadelphia Water Department should not be detailing minute details of a single minor water contamination incident, likely one of many that have occurred over the years.
• The report also said that there have been periodic elevations of iodine-131 in the Wissahickon Creek that decrease over time and do not affect drinking water. "Do not affect drinking water", so again, why is this in the article?
• Iodine-131 has was also detected in the Schuylkill River during this period, especially when the river is low. The amounts found in the river and creek were not specified. You have now included almost the entire text of the linked slide show, without good reason.
• No contaminant levels have been posted on the EPA web site since April 2011. Okay, and neither have they been posted to the Harlem Globetrotters web site. Sorry if I seem a bit snarky, but at this point...I mean, come on. How can you not see how ridiculous it is to include these minute details, and pretend that they are in the article for any reason other than to prejudice the reader towards your point of view that there is something in the water from hydraulic fracturing.
• The Philadelphia Water Department plans to upgrade its water treatment facilities and water management systems to better deal with the waste water. The water department plans to raise funds for the project by increasing Philadelphia residents' water and sewer rates over the next four years. Finally, the very last sentence actually has something relevant, but I don't see that a statement that water treatment is undergoing upgrades is notable enough for the Misplaced Pages article. No doubt every water department in every American city has upgraded their facilities at one time or another; you are using this sourced statement to stealthily imply that it is being done because of your above assertions of pollution due to hydraulic fracturing.

Your entire textual rant, sourced or not, synth or not, was hung on the coatrack of the article under the false premise of describing the subject of the article (which, I remind you, is Philadelphia Water Department). This is different from a "criticism" or "controversy" section of an article; you are not criticizing the subject, you are criticizing hydraulic fracturing, and doing so without any sources that directly relate to the subject of the article.

Your assertion that the material needs to be on the page to develop consensus is absurd. All previous versions of every page are visible in the page history.

In conclusion, the material does not belong on the page, and you will be blocked for edit warring if you re-add it again.

Sincerely,

Summer Glau - RunningOnBrains 02:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I concur - those are egrerious and, frankly, ridiculous violations of WP:SYNTH and WP:COATRACK. Smm201`0, do not re-add these to the article, as they are in utter violation of Misplaced Pages's policies, guidelines, and values - as noted, you will be blocked if you do so. It's up you to make the case to have these included (of which there is no case, but you're welcome to discuss why you think there is), not for others to argue against them. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. This water quality issue is ongoing in Philly, not a single event. I've tried to incorporate a lot of your feedback. Nobody can see the revisions I've made unless I post it somewhere, so at another editor's suggestion, I've put it on the talk page.Smm201`0 (talk) 13:56, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

As pointed out earlier, everyone can see your revisions simply by going to the History tab of the article. Posting it to the Talk page was unnecessary. — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

No, they can't see revisions made in response to runningonbrains comments because they were done after the last time I reinserted the material. They have never been on the PWD page.Smm201`0 (talk) 16:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

... wait, what? Are you talking about further changes, beyond the ones that were posted above? — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm trying to bring the content into compliance with Misplaced Pages policies in a way that allows me to get feedback from other editors, but don't worry, I didn't reinsert it in the article. I had not had a chance to edit in response to runningonbrains list of comments before it was deleted. Had it been left on the page, I could have revised it there.Smm201`0 (talk) 19:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

As I mentioned on the talk page there, even your revised text would make the article into a WP:SYNTH-infested WP:COATRACK. Please stop beating the dead horse. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Right, you didn't re-insert it. That was my point earlier about what you had previously inserted already being in the article history. That said, Bushranger is right, the points made above are clear: the majority of what you want added has no place in the article. It's not a matter of "bringing it into compliance," as it is non-compliant by its very nature. — The Hand That Feeds You: 23:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I still respectfully disagree about the content being synthesis and coat rack because the PWD itself discusses the same topics at length on its own web site, though not with the RS that Misplaced Pages requires and I added. I agree that the original rendition was too verbose and wasn't well focused. But this kinda of discussion really belongs on a talk page and not here. I'm relative new at this and only came here for help with disruptive editing. Won't ask for help again. End of story.Smm201`0 (talk) 03:29, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

The United States government talks about a lot of things on their websites, but it doesn't make it valid for inclusion on Government of the United States. That said, perhaps an article on Iodine contamination of groundwater might be a worthy subject? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:42, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I nearly suggested that in the PWD talk because there are several RS-compliant sources that discuss groundwater issues that Smm is trying to use in a coatrack manner in the PWD article. I am, however, afraid that such a page would develop into a synth sinkhole of anti-hydraulic-fracturing advocacy. Chillllls (talk) 04:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

1exec1 and Template:Use dmy dates

• 1exec1 (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log · edit summaries)

1exec1 is systematically adding the templat {{Use dmy dates}} to articles with the edit comment of "date formats per WP:MOSNUM". WP:MOSNUM covers a multitude of points among which are:

• MOS:DATEUNIFY
• WP:STRONGNAT

As can be seen on archives of Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers, British dates can either be in the format of "dmy" or "md, y" it depends on the sources used (EG The Daily Telegraph uses "dmy" while the The Times uses "md, y").

While there is a good argument for adding {{Use dmy dates}} to cope with British articles with dates that already have the dates formatted as "mdy", as there is no agreement in sources or guidelines for British dates to be exclusively formatted that way, {{Use dmy dates}} should not be imposed on articles that have no day month information or are already formatted a different way.

My concerns were raised by edits made by user:1exec1 because of the number of British articles that I watch which 1exec1 has been editing in the last few days.

On looking further I left a comment on user talk:1exec1:

Take for example this change to the article John Du Cameron there are no dates in article in the format of either dmy or md,y so it can not be justified on dates already in the article.

1exec1 has not replied to this comment although 1exec1 has since replied to another user's comment placed on the talk page after mine, indicating that my posts have been read.

After the reply to the last posting on user talk:1exec1 in which 1exec1 says "The script doesn't run on its own, I would need a bot account for that. All edits are rechecked by me, so there should be few such errors, since I've manually fixed most of them, this one must have slipped below my radar" which on the face of it would seem to indicate due diligence, (a similar comment was posted before "I agree that sometimes I could make an error judging which format is used more, or just changed to DMY because there were few accessdates at all. I'll try to recheck some of my past edits and fix them if there are problems."), so I decided to look at the User contributions of 1exec1.

I only had to look back eight edits from the most recent to see that 1exec1 made 15 edits in the minute 01:33, 3 April 2012. On examining the first of those edits it is clear that more than simple tagging is talking place as the article Roy Campbell (poet) has had all its dates changed from mdy to dmy and like the other 15 edits it was marked as a minor edit although it made many changes to the text.

So it seems clear that 1exec1 can not be observing due diligence if 15 edits are being made in a minute and that 1exec1 is imposing a format on British articles that is not justified by article content.

I suggest that 1exec1 desists from changing dates in articles unless there is consensus to do so (or split usage), and does not add the template to {{Use dmy dates}} unless before 1exec1 starts to edit the dates in an article an article they are already all formatted as dmy or there is a consensus on the talk page of the article to use dmy in the article and to place the template {{Use dmy dates}} in article space. Also these automated edits should not be marked as a minor change.

Until a consensus emerges here on what is acceptable, 1exec1 should desists from running the script that is being used. -- PBS (talk) 11:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The reason why I did these changes was that these pages were already in a hidden category Use DMY dates. ALL articles are about a British subject and should have DMY dates anyway per WP:STRONGNAT. Only articles about an American subject can be in MDY, and even then there are exceptions, such as the military. Since I was editing pages related to military, specifically from Category:British Army officers, I'm almost sure that all articles would use DMY per WP:STRONGNAT, since even if an article is mistagged, almost all Commonwealth countries use DMY (Date format by country) and even then, the US military uses DMY also. Finally, my edits are not disruptive and can always be reverted if I'm wrong, so I see little misconduct here. But I'll stop until consensus is reached here. 1exec1 (talk) 11:19, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

As for very high edit speed, I do all my edits in batches. I.e. open e.g. 300 articles in edit mode in tabs, do all changes, preview all changes and then commit all changes. This results in a lot of pages edited in short time, however this doesn't represent the time I spend on the articles. 1exec1 (talk) 12:22, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

1exec1's edits are consistent with WP:MOSDATE. If anybody wishes to change policy to have articles on British subjects use dates in US format, they should raise it on the talk page there and gain consensus for change. --Pete (talk) 11:25, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I've reread the relevant policy (WP:STRONGNAT) and it seems to be pretty clear: Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the more common date format for that nation. For the US this is month before day; for most others it is day before month. (emphasis mine). Because my edits are not disruptive (i.e. are very minor, often with no visible changes and can be easily reverted), I'm continuing to edit. If there are any other issues with my edits, please contact me on the talk page. Thank you. 1exec1 (talk) 13:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

What 1exec1 said has been my understanding all along. Our conventions tend to ignore the mix of date formats used in the "real world" in US and the UK. I'm sure that if he cares to delve into the archives, PBS should find the above wording of MOSNUM reflects the consensus position. WP articles on British, Irish, Australian, NZ, SA, India, Pakistan subjects almost universally use dmy format, and American articles almost always use mdy. --Ohconfucius 14:19, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

That may be true in which case adding the template to those pages where the format is already consistent is in my opinion a minor edit. But altering the dates in a page is not a minor edit and there should be consultation on the talk page before the format is changed. Also placing a template on an article that will automate date formats on a page which does not yet have such a format under the argument of WP:STRONGNAT flies in the face of the spirit of WP:TIES "This guideline should not be used to claim national ownership of any article". --PBS (talk) 15:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand what national ownership means. The spirit of WP:OWN is that being the author of a piece of content doesn't make your opinion more important when that piece is edited. In this case national ownership means that being a national of some country shouldn't make your opinion more important. Thus this doesn't apply here. 1exec1 (talk) 16:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

1exec1 I think you are ignoring the word "generally" in that quote from the guideline. Also there is no explicit mention of what is the most common format in Britain (see above both are used when the date is expressed with month in letters so neither is wrong) therefor I do not think it appropriate to make mass changes as you did to Roy Campbell (poet) (particularly as a minor edits), or to add the templates to articles where the format has not yet been decided by a first major contributor, needs discussion on the talk page for a consensus to emerge if one is using semi-automated methods to impose dates on an article different from that which already exists, or on articles that do not already have a predetermined date format.

1exec1 what is the name of the tool you are using to make automate these changes? I ask because the changes do not look as if they are hand made as they change similar strings in all of the pages I have looked at, and it is also implied from the comments you have made on your talk page.

-- PBS (talk) 15:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

There are a multitude of views what a minor edit is. But here on wikipedia it has a very specific meaning. As WP:MINOR states, a minor edit is any edit which changes only the presentation of the content, such as typographical or spelling fixes, formatting changes or rearrangement of text. My edits never change the content, only formatting, and even then, only in minor way. Thus I think my edits qualify for being marked as minor.

It also says "A minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute." I think that this ANI is an indication of dispute, and two other editors have objected to changes you made under minor. So I suggest most strongly that any change other than adding the template to the top of the article is not marked as a minor change. -- PBS (talk) 10:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Could you prove that my edits are prone to objections and needs a review? So far I've made around 7000 edits and there were only 5 cases where my edits contained an error which was then fixed. I'd say it's acceptable rate of errors. 1exec1 (talk) 11:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

This ANI is proof that there are objections. — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

As for the generality, there is consensus that articles about British subject should have DMY format. Whether the article already uses DMY or MDY shouldn't matter. WP:DATERET even has a separate exception for that: The date format chosen by the first major contributor in the early stages of an article should continue to be used, unless there is reason to change it based on strong national ties to the topic (emphasis mine). If we combine this with WP:STRONGNAT, it becomes clear, that consensus is needed for using other format than DMY, not the other way round. Thus, it's the opposite, my edits are generally good. One could argue only about specific articles, but then one should have strong arguments. As for Roy Campbell (poet), I see nothing problematic, he's British and article almost doesn't talk about things related to countries that have MDY style. Pretty good candidate for format conversion on the grounds of WP:STRONGNAT.

Finally, ask for consensus first isn't a policy endorsed by Misplaced Pages. Even WP:CONSENSUS itself says that an edit should be made first (also, look at the flowchart in the right). WP:BRD and WP:BOLD also advocate for edit first, ask later style. The sheer number of edits I make, while irritating, shouldn't make a difference, since the error rate is so low. I use a modified script made by User:Ohconfucius, you can find it on his user page. 1exec1 (talk) 16:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I do not think that BOLD applies to mass edits which are close to BOT edits and are inserting a template that leaves the article open to BOT enforcement. My evidence that these are close to BOT edits is your posting to User talk:Ohconfucius . -- PBS (talk) 10:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, there's currently no such automatic bot which enforces the date formats. Secondly, all edits are firstly reviewed and approved by me and I'm not a bot. You argue that I do bad job reviewing my edits, could you prove that? With links to disputed diffs and so on? 1exec1 (talk) 11:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support what 1exec1 is doing to improve and harmonise date formats. Not sure why it has been brought here; wouldn't WT:MOSNUM be a better venue for this discussion? --John (talk) 16:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• • This is not a question of MOSNUM but a question of editor actions. -- PBS (talk) 10:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Ohconfucius I think you should have declared an interest in this section -- That you are in co-operation with 1exec1. You say "care to delve into the archives" Yes I will. But also please show me where in the archives it was agreed what is most common in the UK and that the word generally should be ignored and that all British articles should conform to that format (rather than generally conform to that format)? -- PBS (talk) 10:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The talk archives at WP:MOSDATE contain comprehensive discussions on the topic dating, if I may use the word, from the earliest days of the project. What we have now works and while you are welcome to propose changes, this is not the place to do so. --Pete (talk) 11:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

While I can't say too much about what we do for British and American articles, I'd like to ask that this be avoided for Trinidad and Tobago-related articles, given that while we abbreviate dmy, most long-form dates are written md,y. I suspect that there are other countries that don't fit into this strict division either. Guettarda (talk) 13:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Repeated false accusations of 'vandalism' etc at The Zeitgeist Movement article

See with the edit summary "Adding real content about actions which troll who govern this page would prefer not to allow. Removing ongoing POV vandalism". The editor User:Reinventor098, who's only contributions have been in relation to TZM, or related articles, has been repeatedly told (see also Talk:The Zeitgeist Movement, and of course Special:Contributions/Reinventor098 - particularly the edit summaries) that such false accusations of 'vandalism' are uncalled for, and must stop. The fundamental problem is that TZM supporters are trying to spin the article their way, and adding questionable material sourced solely to their own organisation. Given the fairly obvious sock/meatpuppetry that has been going on in relation to the article, I doubt that a simple block or topic ban is going to solve the problem. Administrator action is clearly necessary regarding Reinventor098's actions, but I think we will also have to consider wider measures concerning the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:10, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure blocking anyone would help as I expect socks to appear in fairly short order. From their actions, I don't think they really care too much about our policies, just getting their POV in the article. Semi protection won't help as several of the SPA's are confirmed. Maybe a month of full protection to force the use of the talk page? If they get used to using the talk page, maybe they'd continue after the protection. Ravensfire (talk) 18:20, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Sadly, they seem to consider the talk page as an ideal place to make accusations of 'vandalism' - so I'm not sure that would help much. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:23, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Yup, but I'd rather there than deal with the continual reverts. Full protection + some polite but direct warnings from someone totally uninvolved might get the point across to them and if not, short blocks for civility as needed. More than anything, it's the reverting of their POV and minutia that's tiring to me. As long as they don't get too personal on their comments, calling anything they don't like vandalism is something I consider annoying but expected. Ravensfire (talk) 18:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, I suppose I must be one of those "trolls who govern this page". There is certainly a problem with single-purpose POV editing here. Users Reinventor098 (talk · contribs) and Voiceofreason467 (talk · contribs) have concrtrated almost exclusively on this topic and have very similar styles and points of view, although VOR has disclaimed any connection . Cusop Dingle (talk) 18:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I would like to point out here Cusop that I have not in large actually claimed false forms of accusations whenever their would be edits that are not what I would like to be done. . Accusations of vandalism and trolling are obvious that I tend to do: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Acharya_S#WP:Manual_of_Style.2FBiographies.23First_mention . For those wondering about my bias in editing, you should see my comment I made here:

" * Weak Keep - Considering that another article titled The Zeitgeist Movement has been suggested to be merged with this one I would imagine that it would be best to keep it. Especially considering that this might even be a method of trying to get both articles removed. I myself am not opposed to the issue of merging that article with this one, but if we are to do so... it might be a good idea to keep this one. To be honest though, the notability is a bit lacking at any rate about the person in question (even though I would disagree, but my disagreement is based on personal opinion, and thus has no place for dispute).Reason and Logic shall always prevail (talk) 12:48, 25 March 2011 (UTC)"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Peter_Joseph_%282nd_nomination%29

So my bias and my accusations are not baseless and I do have good reasons for them being such. I just did not realize that Misplaced Pages had such an internal method to use and I will use that from now on. It was pointed out to me so as such I was simply in mistake. Oh and for the record, my contributions have been relied upon since 2008 for those wondering.Reason and Logic shall always prevail (talk) 22:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Article was just reverted with the only explanation provided being: Removing Anti-TZM Troll reversion. Editor still reluctant to engage the troll hordes on the talk page
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 23:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I would concur with you Ankh, calling what was edited as a troll edit is completely uncalled for. I mean I think the edit of inserting the word cult into the article would be trollish, but that is obvious, the edit that AndyTheGrump did was not trollish and I have no course other than to say the person is engaging in a false accusation, probably based on a personal grudge.Reason and Logic shall always prevail (talk) 00:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Note that the edit-warring is continuing, with both Reinventor098 and an IP making yet further massive reverts: . As for my comment about cults, that was made on the talk page, in response to a personal attack - I have at no time suggested that the article should describe TZM as a cult (we'd need a third-party reliable source, for a start). AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Good grief - it's getting worse with IP's and new SPA's coming out. At this point, I think protecting the article in a non-POV version and going from there is about the only option. Ravensfire (talk) 01:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Well it's protected now. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 03:52, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Persistent editor at University of Ottawa article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:24.114.252.234 is engaged in an edit war with many different editors at University of Ottawa. There is an outstanding 3RR report (although he or she is at 8 or 9RR by my count, just today!) and an SPI request. Those requests have been outstanding for several hours but the edit warring continues. Can someone please block this editor? Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 23:16, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Up to 10RR, which is a record for anything I have ever seen..... Yeah hopefully this gets resolved soon. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:21, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Article semied by Bwilkins. Salvio 23:24, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz

I have been concerned about the behaviour of Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk · contribs · block user) for about a month now. He has been making comments that are consistently aggressive towards other editors. A sample of examples follow: , , (edit summary), , , , (edit summary), , , , , . Other users have approached me as an admin with concerns about these and other comments. One of these comments in isolation would be easily forgivable. But the attacks and negative tone seem to be incessant.

I made an attempt to raise these concerns with the user here, and my edit was simply reverted with a put-down edit summary.

The user has twice been blocked in the past six months for disruptive editing, and it is starting to reach that stage again. Normally, I would have no hesitation to block the editor for the accumulated nature of the comments he has made, but since I have been the target of some of his attacks, I feel it is best dealt with here. Good Ol’factory 00:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I have had a few run-ins with KW over the years, and I consistently found him to be disruptive, counter-productive, and often quite rude. He always seems to be the first one to accuse others of personally attacking him (often when they're not), while simultaneously dealing out personal attacks of his own. The diffs towards the end of the list in the above post are particularly concerning. Calling other editors stupid, moronic, and idiotic is unhelpful and clearly incompatible with WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, as is telling an editor that "Life is confusing when you have a brain." Any of those diffs on their own are not a blockable offense, but I agree that the demonstrated long-term pattern is problematic. At the very least, I would support issuing a final warning to KW, to let him know that future incivility will result in blocks of significant and increasing duration. —SW—  03:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

My two cents For what it's worth, I brought this to Good OlFactory's attention and I have previously had run-ins with Kiefer before. I explicitly told him on two occasions that he needed to stop this belligerence or else I would have an admin intervene (if someone really needs diffs, I'm sure I can find them.) He then posted more positive notes on my and his talk pages--it's impossible to say if that was genuine good faith or just hoping that I would forget about him for awhile, but he has made it a point to be needlessly provocative and it really needs to stop. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I must say, I've had a lot of troubles with this user over the past year or so, but recently we've been getting along (especially since we agreed to stop discussing our past). I have been a little worried about his recent behaviour - declaring only people who have tought statistics should edit an article, Telling an editor who has created around 85 chemistry articles that he "writes so little". The above disruptive editing mentioned by Good Ol'factory, which I also raised with KW, I hoped had passed. Worm · (talk) 08:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Would this be worth starting a RFC over? --Rschen7754 08:42, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Kiefer.Wolfowitz is a blue link. Worm · (talk) 08:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

From that RfC's summary, KW has agreed voluntarily with two viewpoints in particular (Fetchcomms and Sławomir Biały) that he can be tactless and aggressive in discussions, although most editors can be at times, and that he should try to minimize the behavior and be a little more respectful to those around him (close paraphrasing of Sławomir Biały) and also that he should say things in a nicer and non-demeaning manner (close paraphrasing of Fetchcomms). Apparently, he has not changed his ways and can still be tactless and aggressive. If there are no objections, in a couple of hours I'll impose a week-long block due to the ongoing pattern of violations of WP:CIV. Salvio 10:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• I have been the previous recipient of some of KW's hostility, and although we've not had much interaction since, I do not think he has learned from the RFC despite his claims to have done so. He still treats editors he disagrees with (or, perhaps more correctly, editors who disagree with him) with contempt — perhaps to intimidate, I'm not sure. But I'm not convinced a block will do anything. It's probably time for civility parole, or failing that, bringing this to a higher court. —Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 12:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• I don't see any point in a final warning after the RfC, earlier ANI discussions and his blocks. Maybe being blocked for a week will change his behavior. Dougweller (talk) 13:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, I wasn't aware of his previous RfC. Looks like he has already received plenty of warning. —SW—  13:46, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• I, too, have had to speak to Kiefer in the recent past about his civility issues, and he responded to me with extreme anger (though he did eventually redact what I had asked him to redact). It doesn't look to me like the RfC on him made much of an impression on him, and I think Salvio is probably right that it's time to start actually holding him responsible for his behavior. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• KW never seems to miss an opportunity to needlessly insult or attempt to belittle someone - there is a little club of editors who conduct themselves in a similar fashion, all of whom are very unpleasant to deal with. Perhaps the most astonishing and concerning thing is that he and they genuinely believe that they are somehow superior to other editors, with little or nothing to support that view. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• I should note that after I called him out on casting nonsense, disruptive !votes (, ) in a CfD (), KW responded by Wikilawyering over WP:POINT, claiming that I was misusing WP:DISRUPT, and also falsely accusing me of altering his comments (), which (a) I did not do and (b) the striking of the bolded part of a !vote when a user has cast multiple !votes in a discussion is a standard admin task, especially when said !votes are cast disruptively and in bad faith. I agree that a block for disruptive and uncivil editing that goes contrary to the collaborative goals of the project would not be out of the question here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• I also have asked User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz to tone down his comments, both during a CfD discussion (which he blew off with what appears to be his typical rhetoric), and at his talk page, only to be told to "go away" (which he later redacted). Archived here. And after User:Good Olfactory dropped further concerns on my talk page, I suggested this AN post to get more eyes on this. This would seem to be consistent behaviour. - jc37 00:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Devil in the details

The ANI choir sings in tune, with no caveats or concerns about the "alert" by Good Olfactory, who lists the following edit summary:

• "redact personal attack with hysterical vindictive invitation to nuke my contributions. What the fuck is wrong with this page?"

Anybody who bothered to investigate the surrounding diffs knows that Elen of the Roads commented on that thread, as she commented (most actively!) on my RfC. I submit that Elen is well aware of WP policy and the black stains on my soul. Nonetheless, she did not consider that comment as block-worthy as Good Olfactory, who has with considerable restraint, he assures us, not blocked me himself.

Would any of you explain your rush to judgment and to pass a civility block, and failure to discuss any of these diffs? Why didn't anybody object to Good Olfactory's listing of this diff? Isn't that prime facie evidence of misfeasance by you all?

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Would any of you explain your rush to judgment and to pass a civility block... This thread has been going some 20ish hours (forever by ANI standards) and you have not been handed any civility block. How on earth is this a rush to judgement? Your regular misinterpretation of comments (either deliberatley or for some other reason - AGF says the latter) is one of the thing that most irritates and this is a prime example. Kiefer - I'm afraid I have to agree you seemed to have learnt nothing from the RFC linked above; a shame as I assumed you had. Pedro :  Chat  21:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Pedro,

A "rush to judgment" is a cliche in US legal discussions, describing a failure to show due diligence in discussing a case. ANI is not a courtroom, of course, but some discussion is usually advised.

Please focus on the substance of my remarks. Where is there any discussion of any of the diffs cited? Where is there any caveat that in e.g. one diff, KW may have actually been helping protect the encyclopedia?

We all have off days. I have noted being irritated by my year's work on Peter Orno, which included my politely accepting comments about my lack of logic and misunderstanding of "author" and striving for consensus (resulting in a TLTR page), being left off the April Fools Day DYK, and so losing 10 thousand or more readers, commenting that "even Homer nods". Comparing Crisco1492 to Homer was not intended as a personal attack.

Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:22, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification on "rush to judgement". Luckily I'm not an American so didn't parse it as a reference. Indeed I seem to recall us disagreeing in the past, partly because you couldn't quite grasp my Bitish humour? On a multi-cultural site these things are tough, and I'm a regular offender in that respect too, I suspect. No matter. I would note that opening this sub-heading with "The ANI choir sings in tune" is hardly likely to win people over however. Pedro :  Chat  21:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Pedro!

We almost always disagree, and you usually show up criticizing me, but I still like you because you are a good person. I don't like persons behaving well because of conformity or a wish to become administrators, etc. I do appreciate you because you are sincere---"Before all Temples th' upright heart..."--- both when you are good, in which case you are very good, and even when you are bad .... ;)

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

If I "usually show up criticizing" then that's likely for a reason. I don't tend to go aound criticising for the good of my health :) Cheers. Pedro :  Chat  22:02, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• I certainly discussed the diffs in my initial post in this thread. I referred to specific comments in the diffs and how they violate policy: "Calling other editors stupid, moronic, and idiotic is unhelpful and clearly incompatible with WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, as is telling an editor that 'Life is confusing when you have a brain.'" For further recent discussion and evidence of KW's typical WP:IDHT response, see Talk:Design of experiments#Competence. I'd fully support a block, but KW appears to be set in his ways such that I doubt it would change his behavior for very long. It would certainly be sad to lose a prolific contributor, but being prolific/experienced/intelligent does not afford you special treatment here. —SW—  21:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

  Scottywong (formerly Snottywong),

  You are continuing to repeat falsehoods, confusing my labeling statements as "idiotic" with my labeling editors as "idiotic". There is one editor that I frequently insult in comment summaries, but nobody has ever complained about those.... In my youth, I would have labeled such falsehoods with an f-word, but I have matured with the help of my friends....

  A reader complaining that they were confused by an infobox did not have the patience to read a few sentences of the lede of John Rainwater, which explained things. Of course, an article about a mathematical in-joke may make some readers puzzled, until they read the lede.... (Mathematical scientists spend most of your lives being puzzled and frequently cursing our stupidity, and I obviously have trouble understanding why puzzlement is regarded as a problem.)  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:29, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

In this ANI thread, I count 11 editors who unanimously see a problem. In the Talk:Design of experiments#Competence thread, two editors are telling you that your comments are inappropriate. How many editors need to tell you the same thing before you will begin to even consider the possibility that maybe you're wrong? —SW—  22:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Would it help you to know that I am naked and carrying a lamp?  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:05, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Not that my opinion particularly matters, but this comment pretty much tips the balance for me. I'm with everyone above, some admin action seems to be needed here unfortunately. Kiefer apparently can't help himself, even here at ANI, so he probably needs to (metaphorically) go sit in a corner for a bit to consider his actions.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The degree to which you are cryptic when you try to label me as dishonest and/or inauthentic does not change the reality that you are attempting to insult me rather than discuss the real issue. This is the status quo for KW. —SW—  00:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• I don't see what's wrong with this here. Using a vandal template to list someone is in poor taste, and the edit summary is an appropriate response. I don't work on the same articles that Kiefer does, I do think they could tone it down, I detect verbosity and hyperbole--but I don't see a reason to start throwing punitive terminology around. Now, if you'll pardon me, I'm going back to where I was. Drmies (talk) 22:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

  The first nemesis in my tragic attempts to bring Peter Orno to the main page... kindly forgave my first Ornoery period. I appreciate his letting my latest Milton quote pass without complaint....

  When it was applied to me, twice, the vandal template did not have Elen's helpful note that "nuke" only removes very recent contributions, not all of the contributions.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:36, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

  Maybe I should not have included that particular diff, as it seems to be a distraction for Kiefer from the main issue. Had I not included that one, there were several others I could have used in its place. The point is that there is a consistent problem with incivility and aggressiveness towards other editors. Good Ol’factory 00:18, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Blocked

• Update. I have just blocked Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk · contribs) for a week. Salvio 23:51, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• For whatever it's worth, I support the block. - jc37 00:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
• And so do I. Even the most brilliant content creation doesn't excuse the attitude he displays. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Finally registered

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

So I finally registered a username. I edited extensively as an IP and am wondering if there is any way to salvage my history. Old IPs were:

• 76.18.43.253
• 98.203.99.251

Thanks --Sinophobe (talk) 01:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

You can view the edits made by those IPs via 76.18.43.253 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 98.203.99.251 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), however it is not possible to merge accounts and their editing histories. WilliamH (talk) 01:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Verification of a source

I'd like a neutral party to verify a Romanian source used in the article about Iosif Constantin Drăgan. I opened a discussion on the matter, thinking that I might remove the paragraph myself, but user:dahn--who suspects me of being a permabanned user (he didn't elaborate)--claimed that I was stalking him. I haven't touched the article, fearing it could lead to an edit war. Maybe you guys could ask a Romanian speaker to take a quick look on the article and see if the paragraph in question corresponds to its source. Thanks in advance! --Defetistul (talk) 01:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I would personally recommend user:Biruitorul to review the source, since his judgment can be trusted. I don't know how he would feel about that, though. --Defetistul (talk) 01:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Have no idea of the history here. I had a look at the source article, it appears to correspond to the edit. However this new user's first edit summary was User:Defetistul ‎ (←Created page with 'In Dahn We Trust.') ... Draw your own conclusions.... In ictu oculi (talk) 01:53, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's true that I like Dahn and I appreciate his work. As for the source, are you certain you have read the article? Do you speak Romanian? Where in that article does it state anything about protochronism? --Defetistul (talk) 02:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I've blocked Defetistul as an obvious, more or less self-admitted () sock of somebody. I don't really know who the sockmaster is, but I trust Dahn when he says it's obvious for people who know the backstory here. Perhaps Dahn could confirm who it is. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Vandlisim and slander being repeated

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Slander about a third party is being posted on the American Digger page. It has been removed twice in three days by those who monitor it, but was reposted. Here is one view of the coments, calling a former employee a fraud and fake. It was not posted by anyone with any knowledge of such things nor connected with the magazine, but purely as a revenge tactic against the person slandered, Ric Savage. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=American_Digger_(magazine)&diff=485402608&oldid=485279098 Even though we are 99% dertain who it is, we can not prove it. If it is the person we suspect, we have warned them before about slander and such abuse. Can this action be stopped and the poster either warned again or blocked? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.232.124.165 (talk) 04:39, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

User:Ankitbhatt and User:Ashermadan

I have come across two editors in articles related to Indian films named Ankitbhatt and Ashermadan. The former has been here for three years. They have been repeatedly indulging in behavior consisting of a spurt of personal attacks, bad faith comments and threats to other editors. Ankitbhatt also seemed to harass a couple of editors in the process. To note, he had taken a wiki-break for around sixty days in the period of November and December, but even after that, there seemed to be no change in his attitude. Ashermadan has been repeatedly using caps-lock in edit-summaries and has been blocked for sockpuppetry. Caps indicate shouting. I would, hence, like to bring it to the notice of admins, their behavior over the past six-eight months through a report, which can be found below. Regards, Secret of success 10:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, as its something of a rule that an editor should respond to a call at ANI, I am writing here. That's about it. I have made no statement, and I am not going to make one. I am not going to defend myself. I can partially predict the outcome of this, but I am not saying anything and I'm not going to do anything. I leave it to ANI to do whatever it think correct. ~*~AnkitBhatt~*~ 11:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• We've been here before discussing various matters of Ankitbhatt's behavior. Civility is not optional, Ankit, and if you're not sure if something would be uncivil or not, then assume it would be and don't say it. You need to slow down, take a deep breath, and think about what you're saying before you say it. If you're unable to do that, you may end up blocked. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Looking at the above report, I believe one can immediately get an impression that it is not a question of "may end up blocked" anymore. It has gone on for a considerably long time, and all possible solutions of preventing it were implemented, just for nothing. Secret of success 16:02, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
    • I would (personally) be willing to hold off on a block if we got some indication from Akitbhatt that he understands why his behavior is an issue and that he intends to change it, but I agree with you that given his refusal a few lines up to engage with this thread, the likelihood of that happening is small. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:22, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Ankitbhatt has been here long enough to know what might get him blocked; he should have taken a hint when he came to ANI the first, second or third time for civility issues. I don't support him getting blocked outright; I ask for completely civil behavior from him, closely monitored by a trusted user. Lynch7 16:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that I have not stated I will refuse to listen to the comments on this thread; I only said I won't defend myself and I won't comment. I leave it to ANI to decide, and I can predict what happens afterwards but I am not going to say anything. I have tried my best to show both sides of the discussions but I am just tired of people not listening, not understanding. I would just like to be left alone. If a complete interaction ban is what you deem fit, I have no problem and anyways I don't have the energy or willingness to protest. I'm just sick of this. I only wish to edit in Misplaced Pages, and I feel my contributions are good even though most editors don't think so. ~*~AnkitBhatt~*~ 16:39, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• But that's what we're telling you, Ankit - you need to comment here. If you don't say anything, we have no way of knowing if you understand what's going on or if you intend to change anything. This issue is not something that can be handled by an interaction ban, because the issue isn't that you can't get along with one person, it's that you can't get along with almost anyone. This is a collaborative project, where people have to work with others, and you can't be "left alone" in the sense you seem to want, where you never have to speak to anyone or explain anything you do.

  So, here's what needs to happen: You need to express to us some understanding of WP:CIVIL and that you understand that the way you've been acting isn't following that policy. You then need to commit to adhering to WP:CIVIL in the future, from this moment on, everywhere on Misplaced Pages. Even to people you don't like. Even to people you think are stupid or doing things all wrong. Your behavior has been disruptive enough, for long enough, that if you can't or won't rein in your incivility starting today, you're going to be blocked until you are able to assert the necessary level of control over yourself. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 17:22, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I have been able to get along with a considerable number of editors, many of whom are good friends. There were instances of temper loss for a few editors which has more than patched up (Bollywood Dreamz, Meryam90). I share an excellent working rapport with some editors, and I am in pretty good terms with most people I meet. The above comments are select and directed only towards a few users. Your claim is unfounded and is your personal opinion; I am giving a nice and completely non-angry suggestion, because many have ecstatically "proved" my "uncivil and egotist" behavior through this harmless suggestion: go through more details and see the other things. I would not like to point out how many of the things in the above "report" have been placed in a negative light, but if you are going to look at the superficial alone (such as the report above) and not look deeper, it is unfortunate. That's all. You can force me to accept that I don't get along with anyone; you have caught me at the right time because I don't want to protest so it is easier to force things out. But it will turn me off from really enjoying my editing, and that's my loss. I am well-aware that most of my contributions have been looked upon with continuous disdain, though I still struggle to understand why, but I want to enjoy my editing just like any other contributor to the project. ~*~AnkitBhatt~*~ 17:36, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

No one's judging your contributions; I, for one, appreciate and like your contributions. Its your interactions with other editors that's being raised as a concern. Are you, in any way, disowning all the comments (which have been called incivil) that have been shown above? You may have hundreds of other civil comments, but that does not take away the uncivil ones you have made. Negative light? Of course its in a negative light, we're here to tell you why those are bad. Lynch7 17:51, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you would also look at things a bit broader. I was responding to Fluffernutter's comment that I don't get along with "almost anyone", which is untrue. As I said, you can force me to accept that I don't get along with anybody ever. I have not disowned any comment, and I have never said that; point out where I said such a thing. Look, I do not deny that the comments were uncivil; all I ask is that you look at the arguments in a broader context and not fling observations basing only on the comments posted here, as they only show select negative comments without full context or without explanations. ~*~AnkitBhatt~*~ 18:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Erm, it was my question, I wasn't accusing you of disowning any comment. I don't think you get the point; whatever may be the context, it is not a justification for continued uncivil behavior. You need to understand that being uncivil hurts the collaborative nature of the project. Lynch7 19:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

View by MikeLynch

Ankitbhatt is a useful editor; on its own, his content contributions are very good. Having said that, his interactions with people who disagree with is a matter of serious concern. User:Secret of success compiles a collection of his uncivil comments, and that, really, tells the story here. Ankitbhatt has the habit of immediately classifying dissenting voices into what he calls a group of "SRK haters" or "Salman lovers", and behaves as though there's an anti-SRK cabal that's set out to destroy anything that is remotely positive about SRK and his films. The nature and tone of many of his comments are nothing but confrontative, and often destructive to the congenial atmosphere that should ideally be maintained onwiki. As a result, many discussions which could have found an easy compromise end up being long and winding (Talk:Bodyguard (2011 film)); it does nothing to help the project, really, and ends up souring the mood of other editors as well.

This, apart from his partially nonsensical talk page notice (User talk:Ankitbhatt) in which he "prohibits" users from digging up and reproducing talk page archives. Some users may remember his ANI report and the subsequent "Official notice" doled out to a user User_talk:HereToSaveWiki#Official_Notice. I can dismiss these as amateurish (though he's far from being a newbie here), but the civility issues are serious.

I do not advocate any kind of sanction being placed on Ankitbhatt; I only ask him to maintain civility, and if deemed necessary, I would like a mentor being asked to monitor his interactions closely.

Note: I was previously involved in a talk page dispute on Talk:Bodyguard (2011 film) with him, and the last time I remember him mentioning me was in this kind comment.

For the Bollywood illiterate, "SRK" stands for Shah Rukh Khan and "Salman" stands for Salman Khan, both of whom are actors. Lynch7 14:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I am not all that familiar with Ashermadan's contributions, except that he was found using a sockpuppet in the discussion I mentioned above. Lynch7 14:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

One clarification which the above user has wholly wrongly represented; I do not nonsensically prevent people from digging up the archives. Read the notice in my talk page carefully; I said (and I quote, they are visible in the talk page itself) :-

"Under no circumstances whatsoever are the contents of the archives to be tampered with. The archived contents can only be copy-pasted here; nobody is allowed to directly reproduce any portion of the archive in this, or any other page. You are allowed only to quote it. This is a strict rule, and must not be violated under any circumstances."

Perhaps I was unclear, so let me explain: by tampering, I refer to users continuing old and archived conversations in the archive itself. This means that if I had a certain conversation with X, and I later archived the conversation, I don't want X to continue the conversation in the archive page. He is supposed to copy the previous conversation into my talk page (if he wishes to do so) and then continue the conversation in my talk page. I forbid continuing in the archives because my archives do not provide me a notice for new messages, and I have once missed out an important notification which was placed in my archives, resulting in me being called "unresponsive". I wish to prevent such things, though it has happened once or twice later (to not so drastic consequences). ~*~AnkitBhatt~*~ 15:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

This may be an English-as-a-second-language problem that led to some accidentally-borked text. Ankitbhatt, your warning actually says that users may copy-paste from your archives but that they may not copy-paste ("reproduce") anything from your archives anywhere. The two parts of that contradict each other and make the whole thing make little sense. You could probably get your point across more effectively with a wording like "If you wish to discuss something that's in one of my archives, please copy the archived material here to re-start the discussion; do not edit the archive page itself." A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yeah, maybe an ESL problem. But there is the bigger issue here. Lynch7 15:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I shall make necessary changes. To point out, English is my first language; I must have made a typing error and repeated a sentence by mistake, adding a "not" in between. ~*~AnkitBhatt~*~ 15:18, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, by "reproduce" I refer to cutting-and-pasting, not copy-and-pasting. I shall elaborate accordingly. ~*~AnkitBhatt~*~ 15:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done ~*~AnkitBhatt~*~ 15:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

As one of them pointed above, the talk page notice was a minor issue, and the incivility exhibited by the editor has crossed an alarming point. Secret of success 16:08, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I only need to look at a handful of interactions to see that their attitude towards people they disagree with is horrific. This is a collegial environment, even if you disagree. That type of interaction should have led to a long term block long ago. I truly think we need to see a) an understand that that behaviour is unacceptable, b) some guarantees that it will not happen again; period. Otherwise, it's time to protect this project from such abuse (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 23:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Email badgering by DeFacto

Since the last series of block appeals, DeFacto (talk · contribs) has continued to badger me via email, despite my request for her/him to stop. I believe that s/he should have email revoked but since I am the recipient, I'd rather someone else set the bit. His/her talk page privileges have already been revoked. Thanks. Toddst1 (talk) 12:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I think we're defacto done with this editor. Toddst1 (talk) 13:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

He is? He was also in email conversation with me regarding potentially restoring talk page access so he could appeal again. (He also wanted me to unilaterally unblock him, but I flatly told him no.) How many people is he appealing to? Reaper Eternal (talk) 12:39, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

You, me, and Toddst1 make at least three. TNXMan 14:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Time for a community ban discussion? This user doesn't seem to get it. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 17:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

From WP:BAN, "In the event an indefinitely blocked editor has continued to be disruptive and no administrator is willing to unblock, they are considered de facto banned." I believe this already applies here. Calabe1992 18:03, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The difference being any admin in the future could decide to unblock him under the current circumstances. A community ban would pretty much cement that he cannot be unilaterally unblocked. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

DeFacto ban discussion

Propose community siteban of DeFacto for ongoing abuse of e-mail, shopping multiple admins for unblocks, etc.

• Support as nom. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 21:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• Since we're going this far, I also support. Calabe1992 21:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• Blocked + socking to evade should = ban automatically anyway. This is just icing on the cake. → ROUX ₪ 22:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support - as Hand points out, the difference between a de facto ban and a community ban is that a community ban requires the community's consensus to overturn. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support Indefinite ban, with NO opportunity to appeal for a minimum of 6 months. Any attempts to request unblock/unban through any channel automatically resets the clock for a fresh 6 months. On October 5, 2012 they may contact the ban appeals subcommittee as per their policies - any other requests or methods reset the ban to a new 6 months (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support He's gone off the deep end and needs a while before we're ready to re-consider editorship. MBisanz 22:59, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose ban. There is no doubt that DeFacto bought this upon himself with his by hook or by crook attempts to keep the strawberry story in Metrication in the United Kingdom by filibustering other participants who didn't have as much time on their hands as he did and there's no doubt that he needs a long break. However, the other participants in the threads (1 and 2) that lead to his block didn't have clean hands either. Particularly troubling comments were But it is a vote - that's how you reach a consensus in a democracy! So far 3:1 in favour of binning the irrelevant Asda paragraph. Probably 5:1 by tomorrow if HiLo48 and Martinvl do what I suspect they'll do (canvassing perhaps?) and Some like deFacto himself have been toiling away in their Mums' basements making all the "Down with Metric Measures" and "British Imperial Measures for the British Worker" placards ready for the Great Defence of ASDA The whole thread eventually looked more like "let's gang up on defacto" then it did a discussion. However, one might attribute some of this to their frustration with DeFacto's fillibustering. Still battlegrounding is battlegrounding and both sides are guilty of it. As an alternative proposal, I would like to suggest a block of fixed duration, let's say 3 to 6 months followed by an indefinite topic ban on anything related to British metrication. From looking at his contribs, he does have other interests so it might be wise that he stays away from anything he's very passionate about. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:45, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

1. I was never canvassed.

2. I avoided battlegrounding by leaving the page, often for weeks at a time. (I DO have a life.) But do recognise that such action was only necessary because DeFacto was always there as self appointed article owner. Nobody should feel forced, as I truly did, into giving up on the quality of an article because one editor was a pain in the ass. And he really was. His actions were the root cause of all the other unacceptable behaviour. Don't make excuses for him.

3. DeFacto's most recent public request to have his block removed on his Talk page is an outrageous, insulting diatribe containing blatant personal attacks on other editors. He has completely lost perspective here. HiLo48 (talk) 01:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support: Does not have the social skills necessary to engage effectively and constructively disagree. See WP:COMPETENCE Toddst1 (talk) 03:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Proposing indef ban of the Stephanie Adams sockpuppet...

I am proposing a community ban of Hershebar (talk · contribs), or, for that matter, whoever the person is that keeps reappearing, claiming that Stephanie Adams is notable enough for her own article, adding non-notable information about her, and abusively using sockpuppets. This IP's contributions are a pretty good sample of the articles that are being hit.

See this for at least some of the socks. The latest one was NEMESISGOTCHA (talk · contribs), who only left what was evidently an abusive message at User:Fasttimes68's talk page (edit has been hidden). Because of the returning flow of puppets and apparently lack of intent to discontinue disruption, I am proposing an indefinite community ban. Calabe1992 23:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Support as nominator. Calabe1992 23:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support - Time to go. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 21:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• Whip out the weapons, wax the motherfucker and deposit him directly into /dev/null! —Jeremy v^_^v 03:10, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

More puppets

LIJUAL (talk · contribs) is the latest. SPI has been opened. Calabe1992 14:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Juan José Nieto Gil

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article needs someone's attention. 66.168.247.159 (talk) 19:18, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Vandal accounts blocked. As you know, however there's an appropriate place to report vandals. This ain't it. Cheers ​—DoRD (talk)​ 20:21, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

If I have to pick between AIV, RPP, or SPI, I'll take ANI. 66.168.247.159 (talk) 23:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

WP:AIV

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This also needs attention from one of you fat cats. 66.168.247.159 (talk) 19:29, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

There are only 3 active reports at the moment - not much of a backlog, really. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 19:41, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

So--I reported a redundant issue to a redundant board? But man, they're like totally destroying everything we worked so hard for! 66.168.247.159 (talk) 19:46, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

John @ George Galloway

I'm new to wikipedia, sorry if I do something wrong

User "John" has constantly engaged in edit wars with other users, and seems to completely flaunt the 3RR rule

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=George_Galloway&action=history

Completely reluctant to discuss anything, just bashes the "undo" button, even though the additions I have been making are perfectly sourced in a newspaper article.

Please help. I have tried very hard to maintain WP:AGF but I feel like this article is under attack from an evidently elite group with anti-Islamic/Islamophobic agendas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snowlocust (talk • contribs) 22:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

User:John is an admin, and WP:3RR is allowed to be ignored in cases of vandalism...and also for WP:BLP policy violations, which appears to be the concern here. Look out for those WP:BOOMERANGs. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

That he is an admin is irrelevant (or at least, I should hope so), also he wasn't reverting vandalism or WL:BLP policy violations. Snowlocust (talk) 22:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

doesn't appear to be 3RR as his reverts are in different areas or the article. Have you discussed this in the talk page as he suggested?Fasttimes68 (talk) 22:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

And, Snowlocust, please be aware that, under WP:BLP, we do not indicate that a person follows a given religion – or even imply it – unless said person has publicly self-identified as a member of said religion. In this case, George Galloway has not self-identified as a muslim and, therefore, to imply that he is may be construed as a violation of WP:BLP. Please, do not restore the contentious information and discuss the issue on the article's talk page instead. Salvio 22:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Using cherry-picked and questionable sources to make assertions about Galloway's religious beliefs - particularly those flatly contradicted by one of the sources cited ( He carries a copy of the Koran around, which has caused speculation he's a Muslim. He says: "That's between me and my God."' But asked by The Observer, Galloway denied any intention to convert) is a BLP violation. We have repeatedly asked Snowlocust to discuss contentious edits, but instead, all we seem to get is accusations of Islamophobia (for which he presents no evidence whatsoever). AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)(edit conflict)As Salvio says, claiming he belongs to a religion when he has explicitly states he does not is a WP:BLP violation. Please don't re-add it, as if you do, that'll be edit warring and you'd be blocked. Please discuss it on the article talk page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:36, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The deletions he made at 21:41, 21:18, 17:24 and 12:21 all concern the same part of the article. Sad that because he is an admin he thinks he is exempt from any edit-war rules and rules the article with an iron fist, reluctant to talk things over, just simply bashes the undo button. His most recent revert http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=George_Galloway&diff=prev&oldid=485604049 was deletion - WITHOUT discussion - of statements that are taken DIRECTLY from the guardian (reputable UK newspaper). Snowlocust (talk) 22:37, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd just like to clarify for those confused (e.g. Bushranger, no idea why you are talking about that!) that nobody is proposing to say he is a member of any religion. Thanks :) Snowlocust (talk) 22:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the material you cite was originally from the Observer (both papers are part of the same group, and share the website) - and I have already quoted the relevant section above, which states that (at least in 2004 when it was written) " carries a copy of the Koran around", but also states that "Galloway denied any intention to convert". Why are you using it as a source for the former, but not for the latter? As for 'nobody is proposing to say he is a member of any religion' you spent much of your time on the article talk page doing that - and still seem intent on suggesting that Galloway is a Moslem by implication. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Because when one sources Statement X from Article Y, one does not need to automatically include every single other statement also made in Article Y. In answer to your seciont question, I have heard about deeply-entrenched anti-Islamic/Islamophobic agendas in Misplaced Pages, and now believing to be witness to one, I intend to fight tooth and nail for a neutral POV (one only has to look at the WP debate on the images of Mohammed to see that Wikipedians - newbies and admins alike - will take any chance they can get to degrade Islam, regardless of any Misplaced Pages stances contrary to it. Snowlocust (talk) 22:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

So you're saying that you intend to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point? If everybody else holds one position, and you hold another, it's entirely possible that they might all be right. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:57, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

No. I intend to fight Islamophobia and anti-Islamic agendas to the best of my ability, hence I am requesting admin intervention on this issue. If even the admins fail to tackle anti-Islamic agendas on WP then I will attempt to take it to some higher level than the admins. If even the higher level fail to tackle anti-Islamic agendas then there will be little we proponents of equality and neutrality can do. Also, that's twice you have made completely irrelevant and unsubstantiated comments.Snowlocust (talk) 23:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

As it happens, I happen to be in the apparent minority amongst Wikipedians regarding the debate over the placement of images of Mohammed in articles - and have made it quite clear that I consider them generally inappropriate. Still, can't let the evidence get in the way of a good conspiracy theory, can we? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:05, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Just because you don't, doesn't disprove the general trend. Still, good on you, I suppose. But this is getting off track.. Snowlocust (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

It disproves the proposition that those who are opposing your attempts to spin the Galloway article your way are necessarily driven by Islamophobia (and BTW, there is a quote from the Qur'an on my user page: I suggest you read it, and consider whether your attempts to "rend the earth asunder" are appropriate) AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Stating that "I intend to fight tooth and nail for a neutral POV", when the WP:CONSENSUS is that the current state of the article is already at a neutral POV and your proposed neutral POV is not neutral at all and, in fact, violates the BLP policy, is indeed a declaration that you will engage in disruption as determined by the community consensus, and calling you on it is hardly "completely irrelevant and unsubstantiated". You believe that this should be included in the article. The rest of Misplaced Pages does not. The dead horse beckons; but I'm done here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:16, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

No. The WP:CONSENSUS amongst my communities is that Misplaced Pages is an anti-Islamic, Islamophobic encyclopaedia that mendaciously prides itself on "neutrality". People like you propagate that bias, people like me wish to restore it to previous levels of neutrality before the agenda-driven editors got their hands on the articles. Snowlocust (talk) 23:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

You are the one with the agenda - you have just told us so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. Everyone has an agenda. Some have the agenda of anti-Islam and are victims of Islamophobia. My agenda is neutrality. Snowlocust (talk) 23:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Additionally, thoughts on my recent proposal on the talk page of George's article? Snowlocust (talk) 23:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

"No. The WP:CONSENSUS amongst my communities..." - Which is utterly irrelevant to Misplaced Pages's consensus. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

And regarding my thoughts on your recent proposal, I think you should reconsider making yet more personal attacks on a talk page while the issue is being discussed here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

"And regarding my thoughts on your recent proposal" you said this, but didn't comment on the actual proposal itself. Shame that you also are not willing to discuss this on the talk page like a neutral WP editor would. Also in the link you gave there are no personal attacks, only comments on anti-Islamic agendas. Snowlocust (talk) 23:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

This is clearly not going to go very far. Clearest example of "Who will guard the guards themselves?" I have ever seen. Could anyone recommend me a higher authority that I could go to on this matter? I take anti-Islamic agendas and Islamophobia extremely seriously. Snowlocust (talk) 23:21, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

So do I - if I see evidence of them. Regarding the Galloway article, the only Islamophobia I have seen any evidence of was from the person who posted the YouTube video you tried to cite as a source for Galloway being a Moslem. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Stop right there, Snowlocust. Unless you have diffs showing clear Islamophobia on the part of User:John, you need to retract that statement. That's a very serious accusation, and you do not get to just throw it out because your edits were reverted. — The Hand That Feeds You: 23:37, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Has already been linked. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=George_Galloway&diff=prev&oldid=485604049 diff showing John reverting direct quotes taken from the guardian. Snowlocust (talk) 23:39, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

And what part of that establishes islamophoba on his part? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh yes, the edit where you tried to cite an article that said "Galloway denied any intention to convert" for a statement that he "refuses to either confirm or deny he has converted to Islam". Islamophobia? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The part where he is desperately trying to delete any attempt at associating George with Islamic beliefs or practices, even though they are perfectly sourced and verified. Snowlocust (talk) 23:48, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Note this is not an isolated incident. Look through the page history yourself. John adamantly smashes any association of George with Islam - even when the association is perfectly sourced and verified, as per WP:BLP - and seems to desperately be trying to keep the viewpoint that George is a Christian Roman Catholic, completely at odds with WP:FALSESnowlocust (talk) 23:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Find a source, a WP:RELIABLE one, that states this person is unambigiously of this faith, or it cannot be added per BLP. Insinuations and half-baked extrapolations are not enough. Heiro 23:52, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Why are you so desperate to list George's faith on his WP page? He clearly keeps it ambiguous for a reason.Snowlocust (talk) 23:54, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Why are you so desperate to discuss this - you seem to be the one making an issue out of it? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:57, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

As stated, "I take anti-Islamic agendas and Islamophobia extremely seriously", hence the reporting of this member to the Admin Incidents board. Snowlocust (talk) 00:00, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

"Galloway is often seen with a Koran, but refuses to confirm or deny conversion" carries the obvious implcation "but it's clear he has" - which makes the article non-neutral and a WP:BLP violation. Unless Galloway has explictly stated that he has converted to Islam, we cannot even imply that he has, even if the implcation is worded using "confirm or deny". Your constant refusal to listen on this matter does not help your case here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Locust, Why is every edit you have made here connected with having this person listed as Islamic? Religious POV pushing of any stripe wont get you far here. Find a source or drop it, period. Heiro 00:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Snowlocust, you have clearly misunderstood my last post: I was asking why you were so desperate to discuss Galloway's faith on his WP page. And why are you so desperate to show links with Islam that you conveniently omit the part of a source that suggests that he is not a convert? If he wants to 'keep it ambiguous', why shouldn't we respect his wishes, rather than digging around for evidence? We have clear policy on this, as has been explained to you multiple times. And no, nothing you have provided indicates 'Islamophobia' in regard to the Galloway article - merely a concern for our policies - which coincide with Galloway's wishes. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for any other admin input on this. Obviously I am acting as an editor rather than an admin in reverting contentious and poorly referenced BLP matter from this article, as I have edited the article 85 times. I would continue to suggest seeking a compromise in article talk before adding speculative material on religious affiliation to the article. I am convinced there is one to be found. I welcome review of my actions here as well as additional talk page contributions. --John (talk) 00:10, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• "User:John is an admin" It seems all I needed to know about how Misplaced Pages handles admin complaints was held within the first few words that I got in reply to this section. Whilst I'm here, is there any system for "higher up" complaints, or is this admin incidents section the final step in the ladder for editors/commentators? Snowlocust (talk) 00:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
• And can I confirm that no action is going to be taken against him as per my complaints of blatant edit-warring or my perceived anti-Islamic agenda? Snowlocust (talk) 00:29, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I apologise for not providing sufficent context; I didn't mean that he was "above the law" by being an admin - none of us are - merely that he wasn't some two-bit newcomer unaware of the rules. And WP:EW is suspended for WP:BLP issues, which this was; and you are the only person perceiving an anti-Islamic agenda, so.... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

What action are you proposing? So far you have failed to provide any evidence whatsoever that anyone has done anything wrong. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)If you continue accusing John of Islamophobia with no evidence to support such an accusation, it is more likely that you will be blocked for violating WP:NPA. If you insist on going forward with this complaint, dispute resolution is the process to follow. Oh, and please note: whether John is an admin or not is irrelevant. You are taking a WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude here, while pushing your opinion into a BLP. In other words, you're the one in the wrong here. — The Hand That Feeds You: 00:44, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, I will continue to take this argument through dispute resolution. Your attempts to threaten me do not scare me - if a man cannot speak his mind freely in ANI, where can he? I intend to continue to fight deeply entrenched anti-Islamic agendas within Misplaced Pages editors, be they held within admins, normal editors, or anonymous users, in the hopes of helping return WP:NPOV in relation to any Islamic-related articles. Snowlocust (talk) 00:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

There are no threats - there are simple statments of policy, ones you have continually chosen to ignore. I'd suggest that reading WP:TRUTH and WP:FREESPEECH might be of some use, but the simple fact is, if you continue as you have in the discussion here, we'll see you in the block logs. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE anybody? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I give him a week at most with that attitude. — The Hand That Feeds You: 01:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

If I wasn't so lazy, I'd write WP:NOTHEREBUTYOUNERDSDONTRESPECTMYPROPHET. Chillllls (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

To be fair to Snowlocust, I'd agree with him that there have been problems regarding the way issues related to Islam have been treated in some Misplaced Pages articles - but I don't see this as symptomatic of anything other than the general POV-pushing that tends to go on in relation to articles on religion, or ethnicity, or all of the other contentious-and-not-actually-verifiable-except-as-opinion issues. What is certain though is that you can't 'fix' such problems by making endless accusations of bias, engaging in soapboxing, and generally acting like you have discovered some huge criminal conspiracy, which the world must be informed about immediately, so they rally to your cause. That isn't the way Misplaced Pages works. It isn't the way the outside world works either. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

User:174.1.50.249

I believe this IP user (174.1.50.249 (talk · contribs)) who changed the teams' status names in HaMerotz LaMillion 1 and HaMerotz LaMillion 2 that the IP editor had disrupted editing the second season with unsourced team relationship names translated from Hebrew, but in the Hebrew article, for example "חברות" which literally translated to "Friends" in Hebrew language. There, the editor had changed the winners' team relationship's name was to "Painter & Saleswoman" instead of "Childhood Friends" that causes undiscussed on not give the proper English to Hebrew transliteration standards. To note, that editor did edit warring in the second season article and needs to get a block.

Then, the IP editor got a message from my talk page :

Excuse me my good sir, but you are the one doing disruptive editing.

When I saw the "Broke up" thing for Tom & Adele, I figured I would go check it out myself, just to be sure. When I translated their "relationship" tag, which appeared on screen, I noticed it wasn't "Dating". It was "Footballer and his girlfriend".

On a whim, I translated all of the other teams and found they were also different than what was listed.

So I'm not making stuff up and pulling it out of my rear-end, thank you very much. I'm helping Misplaced Pages by correcting what is incorrect.

You say "Ah Okay", then change them back anyway. AND you give me a block warning. Look, I'm trying to do this the proper way, but you're not listening. The fact is that the old names aren't correct. I don't know how else to put it.

Dude, What is your problem? I'm trying to discuss this with you, but you're just deleting my comments. Am I going to have to take this up with a third party, possibly someone with more power than you? You keep accusing me of "Article ownership", but all I'm doing is trying to correct information that is incorrect. I don't know how else to say it. I translated the relationships from the show. What I'm changing them to are what is written on the screen. I don't know how much more proof you need than that.

Then, the editor did an edit war of that said season article and it may do not give an article censorship on this IP's behavior. ApprenticeFan 00:30, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe this. I seriously don't believe this.

Okay, a few questions: First, how can I cite what I see on the screen? Do I take a screenshot?

Second: It doesn't matter if Bar & Inna, for example, are Childhood Friends. For all of the TAR pages, we have put in the "Relationship" table what is written under their names when their team identifier when it appears on-screen. Peggy & Claire were probably friends, but instead we wrote "Gutsy Grannies" because that's what appeared with their team identifier (Or at least we DID, until I now see that someone has changed them).

Third: As an example, under Bar & Inna's team identifier on the actual show, it is written ציירת ואשת מכירות which translates to "Painter and Saleswoman". Citing another language of Misplaced Pages isn't good enough, I'm afraid. I can only assume that the Hebrew Misplaced Pages is also incorrect.

Fourth: I do not appreciate my comments being deleted from his talk page. I was trying to avoid an edit war by discussing this with Mr. ApprenticeFan and coming to a peaceful solution. Instead, I'm being reported.

174.1.50.249 (talk) 00:50, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

In the original U.S. version, Peggy and Claire's team relationship on screen has not recognized by CBS and "Gutsy Grannies" is not on the old early 2000s CBS website, but they labeled as "Friends". In the Wiki article on TAR2, the relationship labeled as Grandmothers. Herb and Nate changed to "Flight Time and Big Easy", but their team relationships' names from "Friends" to "Harlem Globetrotters". But, there is no case there. ApprenticeFan 01:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Look, I'm really sorry, and I don't mean to be offensive, but I'm having a really difficult time understanding you because of your English. What's the problem with Flight Time & Big Easy? They're identified on-screen as "Harlem Globetrotters" and their wiki page says "Harlem Globetrotters". That's what I'm trying to do with the Israeli races. 174.1.50.249 (talk) 01:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

By the way, the CBS website has been continually unreliable in the past. They once spelled Hungary as Hungry. They also one said the Bransen Family were the winners. I don't know exactly how the hierarchy of information works here, but I should think that information taken directly from the show that the wiki page is about trumps over the website's info, and especially trumps info gathered from foreign language wikipedias. 174.1.50.249 (talk) 02:00, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Other wikipedias are never reliable sources, but the show is a primary source and, thus, superceded by secondary sources unless those are proven inaccurate. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:38, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Pardon? The primary source can be overwritten by secondary sources? What? That doesn't sound right. 174.1.50.249 (talk) 03:47, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Bushrangers, that isn't correct at all. Primary sources cannot be used to support analysis of themselves, but they can be generally scrupulously trusted to say what the actually say. Direct quotes are a form of primary sourcing, and we don't require a secondary source to confirm a quote; though we would to provide information about what the quote means. In other words, we can't say what a primary source means by only citing it itself, but we can say what it says. The fact that Misplaced Pages tends to like to use secondary sources for information is because secondary sources are those which analyze and provide context for primary sources, but that doesn't mean that we always assume a primary source is wrong. --Jayron32 04:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Like I say, the information is coming directly from the show itself, and I don't know how to cite that beyond taking a screenshot. 174.1.50.249 (talk) 04:07, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Returning IP sock of BLOCKED/BANNED editor?

• 74.163.16.52 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• Patrolling Admin please take a look at this edit, as my alarm bells just went a-klaxon-ringing again~! --Dave 00:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

So I forgot my password.74.163.16.52 (talk) 01:09, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• I had notified the user that he's being disgusted discussed here. He's been on here for part of a day (under that IP) and has already started making personal attacks at me for no particular reason. His style does seem vaguely familiar, but I can't say from where. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:11, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Not helping.74.163.16.52 (talk) 01:15, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

No, you're not. But if you did, by telling us who you used to edit as, it could help. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:16, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I think that is not necessary. 74.163.16.52 (talk) 01:20, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

If you won't own up to your previous account, it raises suspicions that you're evading a block, and things could get ugly. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:25, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

It was years since I had that account.74.163.16.52 (talk) 01:28, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

All the more reason to 'fess up. It will be good for your sole. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:29, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

what's his fish got to do with anything? Fasttimes68 (talk) 01:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

User:Gizmo the Cat?,my family moved around alot so I had a hard life,I haven't seen this account in years.74.163.16.52 (talk) 01:31, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Gizmo the Cat? (talk · contribs) Interesting, an account with one notification and no edits, some 6 years ago. That could account for your not remembering the password. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:38, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Noticed how adept he is able to use WP markups and templates even though his account clearly shows he's a newbie? FWIW, I would like to AGF but I find it very hard to take his word for it. --Dave 02:16, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

My article was deleted.74.163.16.52 (talk) 01:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Whatever you're talking about, it's not your article. Once you hit the "Save page" button, it becomes the community's article, get it? --MuZemike 01:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

True.74.163.16.52 (talk) 01:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

User:Nathanielfirst and massive link insertion

Nathanielfirst (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log · edit summaries)

This new user has done almost nothing but add "see also"s to many articles, marking them all as minor, and a group of us have been reverting nearly all of them as not really appropriate. Talk page entreaties have gotten no response nor change of behavior. Their only other edits are two failed AfCs and some expansion of Zhe school (painting) very early on. Mangoe (talk) 02:22, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I notice all his pages are almost about the same topic,the pages are related.74.163.16.52 (talk) 02:53, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Trayvon Martin Poll

Someone is trying to run a poll on the page regarding some content. The poll may or may not be helpful at this point, but that is not really the issue. User HiLo48 strongly objects to the concept of the poll even being run, and is disrupting it by posting a large swearing comment in the middle of the poll, and refuses to let people move it (reverting when someone else moves). Could an admin step in, move the comment, and tell it to stay? Gaijin42 (talk) 02:56, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for presenting such a narrow perspective on this. I responded politely to your comment on your Talk page. Then you come straight here!!! Show some manners ((I was very tempted to add an adjective there that you wouldn't like) and let's continue the conversation there. HiLo48 (talk) 03:05, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

sigh, you also responded to several other people saying not to fucking move your comment again, and that the rules of civility needed to be broken. reap. sow. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:06, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

So what was the point of even posting on my Talk page? (The normal expected response is a reply on YOUR Talk page, which is what I did.) Might as well have come straight here and wasted Admins' time because you don't like me. HiLo48 (talk) 03:12, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I will admit to one mistake, which is that I saw your comment on the article talk page saying "rules need to be broken", after your comment on my page, which indicated to me that you had no intention of changing your mind. therefore I came here. and it has nothing to not liking you. I like you just fine, but your disagreement with the way someone wants to gather consensus does not allow you to disrupt it.Gaijin42 (talk) 03:13, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Hilo is Trolling.74.163.16.52 (talk) 03:16, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Please understand that straight-up-or-down polls are not appropriate in most places on Misplaced Pages, and basic article content is one of those places. We need to make decisions through discussion, not simply votes. Nyttend (talk) 03:18, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree that they arent often useful. And HiLo is free to make that point. But actively stopping others from doing the poll is not ok imo. Gaijin42 (talk) 03:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say "rules need to be broken", and what I did seems to have killed that time-wasting, destructive poll anyway. (We had another one earlier on that page. I thought people would have learnt.) All good for Misplaced Pages :-) See you back at that article, eh? HiLo48 (talk) 03:20, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

No Damn excuse for acting the WP:DICK.74.163.16.52 (talk) 03:23, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

And you really think that using one swear word, that would be a perfectly normal part of conversation in some of the circles I move in, is worse than all the other crap that's appeared on that page? Crap with a façade of niceness is still crap. HiLo48 (talk) 03:28, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

There's a Hugh freaking diff,I'm not bitching in all caps,I let stuff play out,and see the results.74.163.16.52 (talk) 03:35, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

"Crap with a facade of niceness" may still be crap, but at least it's policy-conforming crap. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Inserting comments into the middle of a poll to make a point , well advised or no, is as good of example of disruptive behavior as I can come up with. Per this edit, disruption in fact appears to be your intent. Whether this is in practice any different than wiki-approved ways of closing a poll early such as hatnotes is a valid question, but in my opinion a hatnote is a fair bit more palatable than big, expletive-laden text. WP:CIVIL is not optional. VQuakr (talk) 03:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Amen.74.163.16.52 (talk) 03:57, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

HiLo48, there's consensus in this discussion that your comments were disruptive. Although I think they should be deleted from the talk page, I've reverted to Bob K31416's revision and moved your comments to the appropriate section. Frankly, both your edits and your edit summary are highly inappropriate and you should stop this behavior immediately. Viriditas (talk) 03:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, it was disruptive, but in a sense, that was my goal. I wanted to stop people adding comments to a nonsensical, inappropriate poll. Many have agreed that the poll was inappropriate, but it's still there, wide open now for people to add comments to. It's the second attempt at a POLL on that Talk page since I started paying attention a couple of days ago. What bothers me is that the word that has so offended the masses here is much less of the sin where I come from than the absolute racist and bigoted garbage that's appeared throughout that page. So, I can work hard on following conservative American conversational practices, but how about getting rid of that stupid poll, and all the other idiotic and bigoted garbage on that page? HiLo48 (talk) 04:09, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

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