Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:27, 15 April 2006

List of References

Attached below is a list of all the references which can be called with this template.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1937). Douglas A. Anderson (ed.). The Annotated Hobbit. Boston: Houghton Mifflin (published 2002). ISBN 978-0-618-13470-0.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1954a). The Fellowship of the Ring. The Lord of the Rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. OCLC 9552942.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1954). The Two Towers. The Lord of the Rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. OCLC 1042159111.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1955). The Return of the King. The Lord of the Rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. OCLC 519647821.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1977). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Silmarillion. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 978-0-395-25730-2.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1980). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). Unfinished Tales. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 978-0-395-29917-3.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1984). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Book of Lost Tales. Vol. 1. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-35439-0.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1984b). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Book of Lost Tales. Vol. 2. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-36614-3.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1985). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Lays of Beleriand. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-39429-5.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1986). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Shaping of Middle-earth. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 978-0-395-42501-5.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1987). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Lost Road and Other Writings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-45519-7.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1988). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Return of the Shadow. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 978-0-395-49863-7.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1989). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Treason of Isengard. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 978-0-395-51562-4.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1990). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The War of the Ring. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-56008-X.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1992). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). Sauron Defeated. Boston, New York, & London: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-60649-7.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1993). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). Morgoth's Ring. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-68092-1.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1994). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The War of the Jewels. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-71041-3.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1996). Christopher Tolkien (ed.). The Peoples of Middle-earth. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 978-0-395-82760-4.

Carpenter, Humphrey, ed. (2023) . The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien: Revised and Expanded Edition. New York: Harper Collins. ISBN 978-0-35-865298-4.

Carpenter, Humphrey (1977). J. R. R. Tolkien: A Biography. New York: Ballantine Books. ISBN 978-0-04-928037-3.

Hammond, Wayne G.; Scull, Christina (2005). The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion. London: HarperCollins. ISBN 0-00-720907-X.

Hammond, Wayne G.; Anderson, Douglas A. (1993). J. R. R. Tolkien: A Descriptive Bibliography. New Castle, DE: Oak Knoll Books. ISBN 0-938768-42-5.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1966). The Tolkien Reader. New York: Ballantine Books. ISBN 0-345-34506-1.

Tolkien, John; Tolkien, Priscilla (1992). The Tolkien Family Album. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-59938-5.

Hammond, Wayne G.; Scull, Christina (1995). J. R. R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator. Illustrated by J. R. R. Tolkien. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-74816-X.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1964). J. R. R. Tolkien: Tree and Leaf. London: HarperCollins (published 2001). ISBN 0-00-710504-5.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1983). The Monsters and the Critics, and Other Essays. London: Allen & Unwin. OCLC 417591085.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1982). Mr. Bliss. Boston: Houghton Mifflin.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1998). Scull, Christina; Hammond, Wayne G. (eds.). Roverandom. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-89871-4.

Tolkien, J. R. R.; Swann, Donald (2002) . The Road Goes Ever On (3rd ed.). London: HarperCollins. ISBN 978-0-00-713655-1.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1999). Baillie Tolkien (ed.). Letters from Father Christmas. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-618-00937-X.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (1990) . Bilbo's Last Song. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. ISBN 0-395-53810-6.

Please place any thoughts on changing the template to reference alternate versions for any of these books below. --CBDunkerson 01:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Listing articles that use references

Many, many thanks for all your work on this, Conrad. Further to my desire to use these templates to find all articles referencing an individual book, I have realised that I will be able to (sort of) use "What links here" to find articles referencing the books, as long as each book has its own Misplaced Pages article. Will this be workable? If not, I would like to consider having separate templates for each book. Will this require a lot of extra work? Carcharoth 08:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

No, 'What links here' would not include the books linked on the page unless the articles for those books had links to that page. I'll redesign the template so that it calls sub-templates with the actual reference text in them. Then you can check 'What links here' from those sub-templates to get all pages referencing that book. --CBDunkerson 13:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

More abbreviations

How about "Biography" for Carpenter's biography, "S" for Silmarillion? Carcharoth 09:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll add these if there are no objections. I actually considered both, but didn't know how common 'S' was as an abbreviation for Silmarillion and wondered if there might be objections to promoting Carpenter's biography as THE 'Biography' (though it is generally recognized as such). --CBDunkerson 13:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be fairly commonly accepted that Carpenter's Biography is the biography, though not definitive (maybe that will come later, with the passing of the years, if another biographer is allowed access to the papers again). I believe it is also the only official one. I've seen a couple of other books with varying amounts of biographical material, such as "Master of Middle-earth" (Kocher), "J. R. R. Tolkien - Architect Of Middle-Earth" (Grotta), one by Michael White (can't remember title), but they all seem to rehash material from Carpenter's Biography. The "Tolkien and the Great War" (Garth) book does have new biographical material not found in Carpenter, so that should probably be on the list. I'll try and dig out the details sometime. Carcharoth 20:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

More books

The talk page list above includes the Annotated Hobbit, which is not on the listing on the template page. Some suggestions for other books: the "Reader's Companion"; "Tolkien and the Great War", the various books including Tolkien's other works and essays (particularly 'On Fairy Stories', 'Farmer Giles', 'Smith of Wootton Major', 'Leaf by Niggle', 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil'). Might it be best to have a standard way to reference these essays/other stories that are published in several different collections?

Also, would it be silly to have references to the books and chapters of LotR and the other books, or at least examples of the way we would like people to refer to these books/chapters if they want to? Carcharoth 09:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The Annotated Hobbit is just a version of The Hobbit with annotations and additional text. Most notably it contains the text from all different versions of The Hobbit which have been released and thus is the one book which can be referenced to cover any particular version of the story. Therefor I listed it under 'TH' / 'The Hobbit' as the standard reference.

I've got a stack of other books here which I was planning to put in this morning, but now will hold off until after the design updates. On standard referencing of sub-sections within each book... I think it would be difficult to cover all reasonable formats. Maybe we could write suggestions up on the project 'Standards' page. --CBDunkerson 13:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I think some people will want to reference editions of The Hobbit, rather than the Annotated Hobbit. In particular, people might want to reference just the latest copy of The Hobbit, that most readers should be able to access. And then use the Annotated Hobbit reference for all that earlier edition material? Not sure yet about the other stuff. Carcharoth 20:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

This page takes ages to load!!

There are lots of templates on this page, but some articles may have even more templates than this! This will mean that the pages will take a long time to load (like this page) and place strain on the Wikimedia servers (I think). Is this a bad thing? Carcharoth 09:13, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Yup. I've got an idea for re-designing it which should process faster. It's not as 'pretty' code wise, but I'm working on it now and we will see if it fixes the load time issue. --CBDunkerson 13:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Much faster - thanks! Carcharoth 20:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Update Made

Ok, I made the design updates. I was still getting a slow load time though... not sure why since the new design is very similar to what I've used in other templates which load quickly. --CBDunkerson 14:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Made a further adjustment which seems to have largely resolved the loading speed issue. --CBDunkerson 16:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Subst?

Because all the sub-templates go through this one they all end up being linked to any page which references any book on the list. I've come up with a way to link directly to the sub-templates (allowing proper 'What links here' for each book), but it would require that this template always be substituted. That is, {{subst:ME-ref|5|pg 17}} would evaluate to {{ME-ref/LROW|pg 17}}... this would remove all evaluation time problems and allow 'What links here' from each sub-template, but are people ok always using 'subst' with this template? Under the proposed method it would produce a warning message (possibly followed by a block of junk if I can't figure out how to suppress that) if not substituted. Let me know if you think using 'subst' is ok. --CBDunkerson 15:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I've been looking at the templates coding, and I think I'm slowly beginning to get the hang of it... :-) But in any case, I've thought of a problem... What I want to do is go to a general template for FotR (say) and click "What links here" to get all articles referencing that book. The problem is, that this will only find links to references using that edition. What if someone has used another edition? Or should we be working on the assumption that all references will be "corrected" to a single set of editions? - I would say we shouldn't do this. Is it possible to have subtemplates that allow people to choose whether they reference a US or UK edition of FotR. At the moment, most of these templates won't work for me because I have mainly UK editions. Anyway, I'm going to list details below of the books that I would be using, in case this helps, but I think the system needs to be flexible enough to encompass different editions, while still allowing someone to pick up a book and check all references using that template. Carcharoth 20:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)