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Minor correction: Maedhros' red hair (probably a dark red-brown, actually) comes to him through his mother, but there is no mention of Nerdanel actually having red hair, so it is probably more accurate to say that it comes from his grandfather, Mahtan (who did have red hair). Seeing as there is actual discussion of hair color in Peoples of Middle-earth, and the red is distinctive enough to bear mentioning, it is reasonable (although I am aware of the logical fallacy) to suppose that Nerdanel's hair was not red. Aranel 22:32, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Citations not used in summary paragraph?

I'm not sure, but I think citations are not used in the summary paragraph. Everything mentioned in the summary paragraph should be repeated later in one of the sections, and referenced at that point. I think! Hence my requests for citations at later points. Still a nice article, but let's get these citations in there! Carcharoth 10:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Just found all the citations in the Trivia section. What I'm wondering is whether the best way to approach this is to say that everything is from The Silmarillion (1977) unless otherwise stated, and to reference the bits mentioned in HoME and other writings. That should, IMO, be the way to tackle articles like this. Somehow intertwine the story biography with the story of the order and sequence in which Tolkien wrote various bits about Maedhros. This involves massive trawling through HoME, but would look nice at the end of it all. Carcharoth 10:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Wrong reference?

I'm not sure, but some of the references seem to have been mixed up in the wrong order. There is a references (currently number 7) that links from the account of the wounding of several of the sons of Feanor at the Hill of Himring, to the boat-burning episode many centuries earlier in Losgar. Not quite sure what is going on there. Carcharoth 10:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The system being used automatically updates the numbering / linking of the references and that reference has been associated with the same text since it was added. The point appears to be to explain why six of Feanor's sons were wounded... because the 7th was already dead at that point. It does seem a bit roundabout though. --CBDunkerson 13:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Ditto to what CBD said, except the point was to explain why there were only six, and not seven. If anyone has a better way of making the citation point clear, please do! —Mirlen 19:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, just say in the reference that the quote is intended to illustrate why there are only six sons wounded. That would make it a bit clearer. I vaguely suspected it might be this, but it really wasn't clear what was going on. Carcharoth 20:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Thanks for the suggestion. :) I have made a correction that'll hopefully make the point clear here. Oh, and feel free to fix it. —Mirlen 20:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Overall suggestion

Following on from the bit about Silmarillion references, above, the bit I am most unclear about, after reading the article, is which bits come from which texts. I'd like to be shown (by references) which bits come from which text. Specifically, which bits are from 'The Silmarillion' (and if possible to have the biographical details in chapter order with the chapters referenced), and then to have the HoME references inserted, either in the main narrative, or at the end, depending on how much they contradict the story in 'The Silmarillion'. It would also be worth explaining this in the lead introduction - something like:

"Most of the story of Maedhros is contained in The Silmarillion, a posthumous work edited by Christopher Tolkien from the writings of his father J. R. R. Tolkien, and published in 1977. More of the writings of J. R. R. Tolkien were published in The History of Middle-earth series of volumes, edited by Christopher Tolkien and published from 1983-1996. This article references details published in both works."

In fact, that could be worked up into a template to use on many articles, similar to the "canon" template. What do people think? Carcharoth 10:50, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Forgive me, but I'm rather confused on what you're trying to say in the first paragraph. For the message — wouldn't the canon template serve the same function as what you're proposing? —Mirlen 19:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The difference between the canon template and what I am proposing is that the canon template is (I think) meant to be used when there are glaring and major contradictions between various parts of the writings, especially when it is unclear what Tolkien's intent was. What I am suggesting is some sort of template that would say that, unless stated otherwise, the article is based on Tolkien's published writings, and further (something I failed to make clear above) that any other details from other writings are clearly referenced.

This would be suitable for articles where the unpublished writings are being used to expand upon what we see in 'The Silmarillion'. To take the example here, the following are bits that I think (please correct me if I am wrong) are from outside 'The Silmarillion', and should be referenced to the other writings they are from (some already are, some aren't - I've bolded the ones I think need referencing as being outside 'The Silmarillion'):

• Auburn hair
• Like Mahtan
• Other names
• Most diplomatic of the sons
• Travelled far and wide with their father
• The friendship of Maedhros and Fingon proved to be true and lasted their entire lives
• Maedhros lived in Formenos
• Maedhros brought the tidings of Finwe's death

The rest seems, to me, to be mostly from 'The Silmarillion', though maybe expanded versions appear in various HoME texts. It's just this distinction between the published Silmarillion and HoME that I feel should be made clear. Hope that was clearer! :-) Carcharoth 21:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Two examples of contradictions in published Silmarillion

There are two examples of contradictions with the published Silmarillion that could be made clearer:

• The reference in footnote 8 to Amrod/Ambarto dying in the ships at Losgar needs to be reconciled with the account in 'The Silmarillion' of Amrod and Amras dying in the attack on Earendil's people at the mouths of Sirion (see index entry for Amras).
• The different texts about the sons of Elwing, with either Maglor or Maedhros searching for them, needs to be made clearer in the main text, rather than left to a trivia note at the end. Personally, I would leave it out altogether, like the account about the Dragon-helm - unless you can clearly reference something that shows which one was Tolkien's intent.

If I hadn't heard of this before, these bits would have confused me. Carcharoth 21:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

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