Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:35, 21 April 2012

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Beatles article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35Auto-archiving period: 20 days

This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Consensus per this discussion is to keep the mid-sentence use of "The/the Beatles" minimal.

	The Beatles is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 18, 2004.
Article milestones Date Process Result May 30, 2004 Featured article candidate Promoted August 29, 2006 Featured article review Demoted August 29, 2006 Good article nominee Listed February 5, 2007 Good article reassessment Kept April 26, 2008 Peer review Reviewed June 9, 2008 Peer review Reviewed November 16, 2008 Peer review Reviewed June 3, 2009 Good article reassessment Kept September 26, 2009 Featured article candidate Not promoted November 3, 2009 Featured article candidate Promoted Current status: Featured article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Musicians / Core This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians (assessed as Top-importance). This article is listed on the project's core biographies page. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Rock music Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Rock music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Rock music on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Rock musicWikipedia:WikiProject Rock musicTemplate:WikiProject Rock musicRock music Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Merseyside Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Merseyside, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of Merseyside-related articles. In so doing it works and collaborates with its mother project WikiProject UK Geography. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. Please also feel free to join in the discussions on the project's talk page.MerseysideWikipedia:WikiProject MerseysideTemplate:WikiProject MerseysideMerseyside Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. The Beatles Top‑importance This Beatles-related article is within the scope of WikiProject The Beatles, which focuses on improving coverage of English rock band The Beatles and related topics on Misplaced Pages. Users who are willing to participate in the project should visit the project page, where they can join and see a list of open tasks.The BeatlesWikipedia:WikiProject The BeatlesTemplate:WikiProject The BeatlesThe Beatles Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do list: For this article Condense, clean and refactor the "Musical evolution" section. Remove uncited fancrufty statements. Source "Achievements" section, intergrate into article or write in prose, not bullet points. Ultimate goal: Get back to FA status For WikiProject The Beatles A list of articles needing cleanup associated with this project is available. See also the tool's wiki page and the index of WikiProjects. Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Articles on each Beatle tour (Category:The Beatles concert tours). See: Missing articles. Expand : The Lost Lennon Tapes, notable radio series which has spawned many bootlegs. Apple Records See also: Adopt an article Stubs : See: Category:The Beatles song stubs Update : Pics/Graphics wanted: Kenwood. Verify : Beatle wives Other : Project: Add {{WikiProject The Beatles}} to the talk pages of all Beatles-related articles. Send a newsletter to members, canvas for new members and coordinate tasks. Enter articles assessed as stubs onto this list, also list articles needing cleanup and other work here. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. England Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WP1.0

	This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.
Template:VA A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on September 26, 2009 and September 26, 2010. This article has been mentioned by a media organization: "The 50 most-viewed Misplaced Pages articles in 2009 and 2008". The Daily Telegraph. August 17, 2009.

Template:Find sources notice

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Beatles article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35Auto-archiving period: 20 days

Associated Acts

Due to the recent addition of Wings and the Quarrymen, I thought we might need to discuss this once again. According to the Wiki template

"The following uses of this field should be avoided:
Association of groups with members' solo careers
Groups with only one member in common"

Both would seem to apply to POB and Wings, though perhaps not the Quarrymen. Any thoughts? — GabeMc (talk) 23:06, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Ringo Starr and George Harrison are both listed as being former members of the Plastic Ono Band. The inclusion of the Plastic Ono Band is therefore worthy. Wings had one member of the Beatles in it. Wings should not be added under that logic.

108.46.110.232 (talk) 04:13, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, good points, especially on Wings. And while it's true that Ringo and George played on one POB album each, were they really members? Was King Curtis a member of POB (It's so Hard)? Phil Spector (Love)? Billy Preston (God)? Also, who are the Flux Fiddlers from the "Imagine" album, then, are they also an associated act? — GabeMc (talk) 21:49, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Pete Best

The passage, "The band had already been contemplating Best's dismissal, so he was replaced by Ringo Starr" This is 100% incorrect. There is no attribute to this passage. The band had not been contemplating removing Pete Best at all. From the first recording session at Abbey Rd, which Best was at on 6 June 1962, to Best's dismissal it was over 2.5 months. 94.194.102.190 (talk) 09:19, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

It is sourced to Spitz. Do you have a source to back up your claim? Cresix (talk) 14:27, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Delete

Non-notable beat combo that everyone's long forgotten. SmokeyTheCat 05:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Huh?? What's your point? Ah, April Fools. Joke's on me. Hardy-har-har-har. Cresix (talk) 14:27, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Is it true...

...that they visited Otis Redding's funeral? According to a Jet publication, The Beatles "were slated to leave London to attend the funeral". But did they visited it or not? I would say no, but let's see what others say. Regards.--GoP_{TN 13:16, 3 April 2012 (UTC)}

In my opinion this is a moot point. Such trivial details don't belong in the article. Cresix (talk) 00:07, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree, the article is massive as it is, and not in need of trivial details such as this. — GabeMc (talk) 00:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

FYI, it is already included at Otis Redding#Death. GoingBatty (talk) 01:30, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you please answer my question?--GoP_TN 08:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry - don't know whether they actually attended the funeral or not. GoingBatty (talk) 17:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Include or not?

• The Beatles were such Stax fans that they even sent a limousine near an English airport to pick up the Stax crew (its first European tour)?
• The Beatles once visited a gig with performers including Steve Cropper and Carla Thomas. When they saw the performance, all four bowed.

This could be added into the Influence section.--GoP_{TN 10:00, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}

Again, maybe this is important on the Stax article, but IMO not significant enough to mention on the Beatles article. GoingBatty (talk) 17:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• The Beatles were extremely popular in the Soviet Union, but yet the Soviet Union is not even mentioned... Without the Beatles there would be no Russian rock (Kino, Aquarium, DDT, etc.)--GoP_{TN 10:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}
• The Influence section is overall too small. I am pretty sure there is more to say then just two small sections...--GoP_{TN 10:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)}

Hi.

http://www.quoteland.com/topic/Beatles-The-Quotes/369/

Artemy Troitsky : <The Beatles, Paul, John, George and Ringo have done more for the fall of Communism than any other western institution>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1028603.stm

Milos Forman : <It sounds ridiculous but it's not. I'm convinced the Beatles are partly responsible for the fall of Communism>

Canadian-based academic Dr Yury Pelyoshonok, who grew up in the USSR in the 1960s, backs up his claim.

<The Beatles had this tremendous impact on Soviet kids. The Soviet authorities thought of The Beatles as a secret Cold War weapon>

<The kids lost their interest in all Soviet unshakeable dogmas and ideals, and stopped thinking of an English-speaking person as an enemy>

<That's when the Communists lost two generations of young people. That was an incredible impact> --Roujan (talk) 22:27, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that the "Influence section is overall too small". It might need some adjustments, but not lengthening. Unless someone wants to create a separate "Influences" article and link it here, but if you do please first compose it in a sandbox in your user space and let everyone take a look and comment. Cresix (talk) 23:02, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• To clarify, the Influences section of the Beatles' article deals with musicians who influenced the Beatles, not the Beatles' influence on other people, so I think you mean the Legacy section, though in that case, I still agree in principle with Cresix, unless a well-sourced and succinct graph could be prepared and discussed before addition, I reccomend a new article that can deal with this issue in more depth, versus elongating an already especially large article. — GabeMc (talk) 00:55, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe include in The Beatles' influence on popular culture? GoingBatty (talk) 02:40, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Deceptive edit summary

I'm not sure if this is a cause for concern, but Rockerdude101 changed the genre in the info box and marked the edit as minor putting in the edit summary, "puncuation error". It has since been reverted, but it looks like they were being intentionally deceptive. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:20, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Definitely deceptive. I gave him a warning. Evanh2008 (talk) (contribs) 22:48, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Good idea, deserved a warning. I reverted Rockerdude's edit and that is precisely how I interpreted his edit summary. --RacerX Talk to me 23:44, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Check this out. Evanh2008 (talk) (contribs) 07:54, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Certainly appears to be a sock. Here is User:Manda96's only edit to date, which ultimately resulted in this rather embarrassing looking exchange. --RacerX Talk to me 23:24, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

London photo

removed image
Per request by User:GabeMc, who removed a photo with rationale, unexplained addition of image which resulted in sandwiched text, please take to talk. If the question is why the image was added, it's because it's one of the few semi-candid pre-invasion photos of the group, and the only such photo in the article. But if the question is how to un-sandwich text, the answer is to move the image or text.--Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 21:27, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

First, its a fair use issue, as I believe the image you added is likely copyrighted. Since I find it hard to believe this image is Public Domain, having appeared on the cover of an album. Also, there are currently three images of the band from late-63'-mid-64'. Further, the BBC image crowds the article, so I would rather swap images then add more photos to this section. I'm open to suggestions as always. As far as unsandwiching the text, I don't see how it could be done while retaining the images relevance to the surrounding text. — GabeMc (talk) 22:04, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with GabeMc. In fact, other editors may be interested in an investigation of Wikiwatcher1 (talk · contribs) at WP:Contributor copyright investigations/Wikiwatcher1. Cresix (talk) 00:31, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Past/Current Members

How can a dissolved band even have current members, let alone two people who are no longer living? Its most accurate to say that the Beatles had six members total in their lifespan, but since they are no longer an active band, there are no current members. — GabeMc (talk) 22:30, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I see no section labelled current members. Just as you see none of the countless threads wasted on this topic. Hot Stop 22:41, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

1) While the section does not say "current" it says "members" and "past members" implying "members" is current. 2) Past discussions matter little, consensus can change. — GabeMc (talk) 23:18, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, while the section is not called "Current Members" the field is, which clearly implies the field is to be used for Current Members, in this case, two of which are "currently" dead. — GabeMc (talk) 23:29, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Further, according to Norman 2008, pp. 622–24., Lennon announced he was leaving the band on 20 September 1969, and McCartney quit on 10 April 1970,(Lewisohn 1992, p. 349.) so not only do we have two dead people in the "Members" section of the infobox, we also have an ex-band member who quit, and never rejoined. — GabeMc (talk) 00:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• From Wiki template

current_members

This field is only relevant for active groups. Current members of the group, listed in order of joining with no other notation than names.

past_members

This field is only relevant for groups. Past members of the group, listed in order of joining with no other notation than names. If a group is inactive, all members should be listed here, and none in the "current_members" field. If membership of the group has varied over time, it should not be noted here, but may be discussed in the article body. — GabeMc (talk) 00:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Correction. The public infobox says "Members." NOT "Current Members." This has been hashed over again and again and again. There was a discussion on the Infobox musical artists talk page at in which it was decided upon that The Beatles were the exception to the rule as they were when they were making music all those years ago. Steelbeard1 (talk) 01:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Clarification ~ 1) The field is called "current members", and the other infobox section is called "Past Members", which implies "Members" is not past, but current. Steelbeard1, are you claiming that there are only two past members of the Beatles? Was Lennon a member of the Beatles when he died? 2) While I appreciate your links to prior discussions, they tend to be several years old, like the one above, which is five years old, and therefore virtually irrelevant today, consensus can, and does change, it is never written in stone. — GabeMc (talk) 02:28, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

You are missing the point, GabeMc, about the format of the infobox being used and the nature of The Beatles' lineup over the years. Yes, they are defunct and three are deceased. But the point is, THEY WERE NOT THE FAB SIX so do not confuse those who want to learn more about The Beatles from the infobox. They are John, Paul, George and Ringo and before they were famous there was Stu and Pete who were no longer with the group when they became famous. We need a new infobox format for defunct groups, but lacking one, the current formatting of the infobox is the best we can do. Steelbeard1 (talk) 01:32, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Straw Poll

The purpose of this poll is to gage current consensus as to the members sections of the Beatles infobox. I suggest we list all six ex-Beatles as "Past Members", and leave the "Current Members" field empty, as the band was dissolved in 1975, and has since not reformed. — GabeMc (talk) 23:46, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support ~ The "members" section as it now stands includes two dead people, and two people who are no longer in a band called the Beatles. The "members" section should be blank, with all six previous members in the "Past Members" section. — GabeMc (talk) 23:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
• This one's a tough call. Obviously there are no "members" of The Beatles anymore, but putting all six together seems to put Sutcliffe and Best on an even par with the four well-known members. Normally this would be a no-brainer "support" for me, but The Beatles may be an anomaly. How about changing "members" (Lennon, McCartney, Harrison, Starr) to "lineup", while leaving Sutcliffe and Best as "past members"? Joefromrandb (talk) 00:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Joe, the first graph of the lede handles this issue fine, so why not just follow current Wiki guidlines? — GabeMc (talk) 00:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages is not a fansite and no exception should be made." — GabeMc (talk) 02:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

While I appreciate all good music, including The Beatles, I wouldn't call myself a "fan". And even if I were their biggest fan, I would never advocate editing the article from a fan's point of view. My opinion that an exception may be ideal in this case is again, based on my belief that the case of The Beatles is an anomaly. Joefromrandb (talk) 03:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose for the reasons that were determined when the current infobox arrangement was decided in a previous consensus. I agree that The Beatles are an anomaly in this regard. Essentially, my reason for wanting to leave it like it is, is that The Beatles as Lennon, McCartney, Harrison, and Starr were (and continue to be, even with half of them dead) one of the most pervasive influences, not only on music, but on culture in general. Sutcliffe and Best simply don't fit into that framework the way the other four do. Rather than this proposal, I would actually prefer to leave out a listing of membership altogether in any form in the infobox (but leave the photo caption); but my preference is to leave it like it is. For more details, see the several discussions of this issue in the archives. Cresix (talk) 01:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Good points Cresix, but I would say as far as Sutcliffe and Best, the lede and the article body make their roles very clear IMO. More importantly, how is it that Lennon could be a member of a band he quit over a decade before he died? By all accounts there were six individuals in the Beatles between 1960-1970, and none after they broke up, initially in 1970, and legally in 1975, when the partnership was dissolved by a High Court. — GabeMc (talk) 01:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not arguing for using "member" as defined by the infobox's parameters, or by what the High Court states is legal. If we rigidly had to follow those parameters, we wouldn't even be having this discussion; it would be an inflexible decision that would require no discussion. That is why we must have a consensus to make an exception to those parameters. My point pertains to perception. The world generally perceives The Beatles as Lennon, McCartney, Harrison, and Starr. I don't have hard statistics to prove this, but I feel quite confident that if you ask the general public who the members of The Beatles are, the response would overwhelming be those four. That may not fit into Misplaced Pages's way of doing things, but it is a reality. I'm saying we need an exception to the way Misplaced Pages usually does things. Cresix (talk) 01:52, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I see your point on perception, and the need for discussion to determine consensus, and I agree 100%. I also agree with the assumption of the band's most famous line-up. My point here is, the lede and article do nothing but support this, so why do we need to bend Wiki guidelines at all? Is the infobox really gonna have people thinking Sutcliffe wrote "Yesterday", or Best "Octopus's Garden"? The "most famous" line-up is made perfectly clear in the first graph of the lede, isn't it? Then the second graph explains Best and Sutcliff's roles. As it stands now it implies the band is active, and I think those who want to bend guidelines have the burden of making a convincing arguement as to why. — GabeMc (talk) 02:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The infobox is powerful. I think many, if not most, people first look at the infobox before reading anything in the article. I don't want any misleading first impressions. And I think placing Sutcliffe and Best on an equal standing with the other four makes a glaringly inaccurate first impression. If I were new to Misplaced Pages and wanted to find out more about The Beatles, if I first glanced over at the infobox and saw six Beatles listed as if all six were a part of the most famous lineup, I probably would dismiss the article as inaccurate and not bother to read it. The Beatles many times were the exception to the rule, and they continue to be. I don't think it diminishes the article, or other band articles, or Misplaced Pages in general to make an exception here. Cresix (talk) 02:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose As stated in previous discussions, the lineup of The Beatles from their first record release in 1962 to the formal breakup in 1970 had always been consistent: John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison and Ringo Starr. They were popularly nicknamed The Fab Four. Before the group became famous, there were two earlier members when they were local stars in Liverpool and Hamburg--Stuart Sutcliffe who left the group in 1961 (and died in 1962) and Pete Best who was sacked in 1962 in favour of Ringo Starr before the Abbey Road recording sessions for their first Parlophone single. The infobox states the "members" as John, Paul, George and Ringo and the "past members" as Stu and Pete so the group could never be mistakenly called The Fab Six. Steelbeard1 (talk) 01:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Steelbeard1, I'm not debating their most famous line-up, this debate is about whether an article about a dissolved band with two deceased ex-members should list that "most famous" line-up as its members, in the "current members" field. Look at it this way, if you were the member of a club or organization that closed, do you remain a member, or are you a past member after dissolution? Also, FTR, the first recording session at EMI, on 4 September 1962 included Best, not Starr. — GabeMc (talk) 02:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

GabeMc is wrong regarding Pete Best at Abbey Road. The Best session was on 6 June 1962 and was a demo session only. "Love Me Do" from that session would eventually be issued on the double CD The Beatles Anthology 1 in 1995. After the session, Best was sacked by the band. George Martin was not happy with Best's drumming so he arranged a session drummer for the actual recording session. This was done on 11 September 1962 with Andy White on drums and Starr on tambourine. A few days earlier, the song was recorded with Ringo on drums on 4 September. Ringo's version was the debut Parlophone release on 45-R4949. George Martin substituted the White version for the Please Please Me album and that was the version released in the US in 1964. Steelbeard1 (talk) 02:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Steelbeard1, you're right, I did get the date wrong above, a brain fart, its 6 June not 4 September, I should have double checked, but my point was that the first session included Best, that's all, which it did. Also, Best wasn't sacked until mid-August, nine weeks after the session. — GabeMc (talk) 02:45, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Which was, again, a DEMO session with tracks recorded not intended for release. Steelbeard1 (talk) 02:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

According to Lewisohn, "From EMI paperwork recovered in 1991 it is clear that this session ... was not only an audition but also a proper recording date, the Beatles first, under their 4 June contract to the company." According to Lewisohn, they performed "a large selection of material" and "four recordings were made".(1992, p=70) But you're right, they were not used commercially, so one might call them demos. — GabeMc (talk) 03:10, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support ~ A check of pages of other bands in the same situation - defunct, a classic lineup, a few less famous minor members - shows that they are all handled in the way proposed: all members listed as "Past Members". I dig the Beatles as much as the next man but Misplaced Pages is not a fansite and no exception should be made. -- Metalello (talk) 02:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support ~ I feel consistency and precedent and good guides here so that we should list all as past and consistenly continue with the precedent Metalello points out. -- Tearaway (talk) 03:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose there is no section called current members, people just infer that on their own. More importantly, there is no compelling argument for switching this, and doing so would just confuse readers (you know, those people we aim to serve). Hot Stop 04:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Right, there is no section called current members, but the fields are called "current members" and "past members", which obviously implies current to the former, and since there are only two sections, "members" and "past members", if you are not part of one group, you are clearly part of the other. Lennon was not a Beatle when he died, he was a former Beatle, therefore a past member, they are not a ghost and this is an encyclopedia, not a meta-physical fansite. As far as confusing readers, I am not spending hours writing/editing for an audience that can't even read the first five sentences of the article. — GabeMc (talk) 04:13, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Again, the average reader only sees "members" and "past members". The fields could be "dogshit eaters" and "fuckers", but they'd still see that. I don't know why you're wasting so much time (both yours and everyone else's) for such a minute detail. Hot Stop

Gabe has put in much volunteer work here, improving many articles, and I see nothing "time-wasting" about a good-faith proposal. While I don't completely agree with Gabe here, I have no doubt that his only aim is to improve the article. Joefromrandb (talk) 04:23, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Joe, @Hot Stop, please explain how one can be a member of something that does not exist, i.e. the band is defunct. You're not explaining why a defunct band should have four members listed, two of which are dead. — GabeMc (talk) 04:42, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support - The Beatles aren't special, they are just another 60's pop band and don't merit special treatment. Treat them like any other. --Matt Westwood 05:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose The Beatles were NOT just another 1960s pop group, they had more more impact on the decade both musically and culturally than any other band-and I'm speaking as a die-hard Rolling Stones fan. I think the infobox looks good as it stands. John, Paul, George and Ringo were the members that comprised the group when it achieved international fame and imprinted itself on the collective psyche of an entire generation. Best and Sutcliffe were not part of that era.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:27, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per Jeanne Boleyn. The infobox is quite clear and correct as it is. There is no compelling reason to change it. -- Alarics (talk) 06:47, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose pretty much per Steelbeard1. Question I noticed in that info box the Associated acts include: The Quarrymen, Plastic Ono Band; but do not list either Wings (band) or Traveling Wilburys - why is that? 2eschew surplusage (talk) 07:10, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Answer ~ "The following uses of this field should be avoided: Association of groups with members' solo careers, Groups with only one member in common", since both Wings and Wilbury's only have one member in common they are not associated acts, per Wiki guidelines. — GabeMc (talk) 07:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Other than Lennon, which of the other 3 played in the Plastic Ono band? 2eschew surplusage (talk) 07:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Starr played on the first POB album, Harrison played on the second (Imagine). — GabeMc (talk) 07:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

cool .. I didn't know that. (only skimmed the Ono Band article real fast).. thx Gabe. 2eschew surplusage (talk) 07:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. The infobox sits very well as it is, with 4 members and 2 past members. That is exactly how everyone thinks of and remembers the band. I know that doing this appears to fly in the face of the guidelines for the template, but maybe that should be taken up at Template talk:Infobox musical artist. (Actually, shouldn't a link to this straw poll be placed there anyway?) Joefromrandb suggested using "lineup" above and I eagerly scanned the template page for that parameter, but it unfortunately doesn't exist. I wonder if the template guys have really thought about defunct and deceased bands and artists enough? In a sense, they are not entirely defunct while their recordings are still on sale - people buying a Beatles record today will not be wondering which of the 6 sometime-members were involved. Actually, there may be all kinds of people other than the 'fab four', and some of them may not actually be contributing, depending on the track. In a sense, 'The Beatles' and the fact that there were 4 of them, is more of a marketing image than a reality for most of the time that it existed. So, are we in a WP:IAR situation because The Beatles were unique, or are we in a situation where the template documentation needs altering to fit reality? In the modern world of synthetic popular music, I wonder what meaning 'members' has anyway. It refers to a marketing stand and a legal contract regarding royalties, not a simple public-facing fact about who made the music - session musicians, computer programmers, studio engineers, etc were all equally or more influential on the sounds we hear. The Beatles may have been one of the last bands to span that time when a popular band began on stage (just the 4 of them), and ended up in a studio (unable to perform many numbers live as so many people and effects were necessary). Most bands now begin and end in a studio, and tour with heavily pre-recorded backing. The 'current_members' field is entirely a marketing fiction for them, unless a hundred other people were included somewhere too. I think, if you look at this deeply enough, there is no real, once-and-for-all, meaning to these fields and their fieldnames, (especially when you think all the way from a string quartet to a band of rappers) and so they should be used to make each article 'look right'. Which this one does with 4 'members' and 2 'past members'. WP:IAR. --Nigelj (talk) 09:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. The infobox is best left as it is. Clarity for readers trumps any need to enforce "consistency" - there is sufficient justification for this article to be an exception to the usual rule. Perhaps the "rule" should be changed elsewhere so that, where a defunct band has a demonstrably best-known "classic" line-up, that should be treated separately from other ex-members. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Suggestion. The Beatles are unique: leave out the info box. Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" jmcw (talk) 11:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Neutral: I really don't particularly mind which way it ends up. To summarise some of the arguments:

1. Someone who reads the article and glances at a "Past members" infobox ordered Lennon-McCartney-Harrison-Sutcliffe-Best-Starr is going to come away with a misleading impression about which was the most recognisable lineup - but this would then be corrected when they go on to read the first paragraph of the article. This approach has the advantage of sticking to the documentation of Template:Infobox musical artist.
2. Someone who reads the article and glances at a "Members" infobox ordered Lennon-McCartney-Harrison-Starr is going to come away with a misleading impression that the group is active and not dissolved, with all four still alive. But this would then be corrected when they go on to read the first sentence which says that the Beatles "were" a band. But this has the advantage of keeping the most recognisable lineup separate from those who left before they were really famous. We'd be making an exception for this one band, but it's an exception that might be permitted under Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules.

Both approaches have their flaws, so it's a bit of a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation.

Maybe someone ought to propose at Template talk:Infobox musical artist that a new Most recognisable past lineup of past members field should be added to the infobox? That way we could justify keeping JPGR separate, but without getting the facts wrong! ;)

OK, that's a bit of a frivolous suggestion. However, I do think it might be good to mention this issue at Template talk:Infobox musical artist. Ghmyrtle suggested above, "Perhaps the "rule" should be changed elsewhere so that, where a defunct band has a demonstrably best-known "classic" line-up, that should be treated separately from other ex-members." The template talk page would be a good place to do that.

But overall, I'm pretty neutral about what I think is quite a minor issue with no flawless solution. I think it would have been more productive if all the effort that's gone into focusing on this dispute had instead gone towards improving the body text of this article and some of the more neglected Beatles-related pages. --Nick R 12:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - although the parameter is called |current_members=, the reader only sees the heading "Members". The Beatles success was with John, Paul, George, and Ringo - and the infobox properly represents this to the reader. I would support a change to {{Infobox musical artist}} to have |current_members= be changed (or aliased) to |members=, so what editors see matches what readers see. GoingBatty (talk) 12:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
• Neutral, but with a new idea: What about "Members: 1962-1970" and "Former Members: 1960-1962"??--andreasegde (talk) 13:48, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

A good ides, but I do not think this is possible with the current format of the infobox. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support--But they didn't dissolve in 1975, according to the founder (John). It was before that. The change would serve to organize the information better. But this change should carry over to other bands, too. Jimsteele9999 (talk) 15:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Jim, while Lennon "quit" in 1969, and McCartney in 1970, their legal partnership was not formally dissolved until 1975.(Harry 2002, pp. 139, 150) — GabeMc (talk) 00:44, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support/Oppose i support the idea for 2 reasons.

The band has ended, so whats the point in keeping them up

Many other bands have had there members moved to past members and didn't keep their line up fresh

but i oppose because

I would rather keep the line up fresh

My idea of adding rockNroll was opposed

Ericdeaththe2nd (talk)ericdeaththe2ndEricdeaththe2nd (talk)

• Support - The Beatles no longer exists as a band, so it has no members. It therefore follows that the six names in the infobox are all past members. I'd present the obvious four names in the past members section, followed by the other two guys with (195x-196x) after each name. Parrot of Doom 18:54, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support ~ The Beatles are no longer active so I believe it's appropriate to have all six names in the infobox as past members even though the band were known as the "Fab Four". Sutcliffe and Best were official members themselves. However, Sutcliffe and Best should be listed last, I think. As someone mentioned before, Misplaced Pages is not a fansite. TheOnlyOne12 (talk) 03:10, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Neutral ~ I agree with the person who said was should do Members from (1960-1961) etc Ericdeaththe2nd (talk) 23:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)ericdeaththe2ndEricdeaththe2nd (talk) 23:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment ~ It seems most of the "oppose" votes are justified by "the Beatles were special/unique", while most of the "support" votes reject this assertion, and advise treating them as any other band. I submit that while few argue whether or not the Beatles are the best selling band, (though in fairness, sales estimates are derived from claims by Guinness via EMI, hardly a neutral source), not everyone considers them the "greatest" or "most influential", indeed many people feel they were overrated and over-hyped (though I'm not one). It seems Wiki editors want to push their ideal of the band on readers, versus presenting information in an unbiased way. Wiki is an encyclopedia based on, among other things, facts, not a meta-physical fansite built on emotions, perceptions, and sentimentality. I agree with exploring the option of a "Classic line-up" field, and I have started a thread here to discuss it. — GabeMc (talk) 00:31, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I'm not opposed to the "classic lineup" idea if that parameter could be added to the template. I disagree that most of those who oppose the change are pushing their ideal of the band. First, there are matters beyond how much someone "idealizes" The Beatles; someone can recognize their astounding influence without idealizing them or pushing a particular point of view in the article. I know lots of people who don't care much for The Beatles' music but recognize their influence. Secondly, even if an editor personally worships John Lennon (I'm exaggerating to make a point), that doesn't negate the value of the ideas that editor might have about what is the best presentation in the infobox. As I have said above, we have discussions such as this so the community's thoughts about a possible exception to the infobox guidelines can be expressed. If the community wants this infobox to follow the usual procedures for infoboxes, that's the way it will be. But if the community wants to make an exception, it's done through discussion rather than rigidly following guideline. I think most of us will respect the community's decision either way, but this type of discussion is often the way things are done here. Cresix (talk) 00:52, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

1) My point is that of the nine current "opposes", at least 7 include justifing descriptors such as unique, an exception, an anomaly, etcetera. 2) While I don't deny the relative influence of the six members, no one has yet answered how Lennon is a "member" of a band he quit a decade before he died? — GabeMc (talk) 01:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Comment The template in its current form simply does not work for this topic. We currently have "Members" and "Past Members" as the headings. That's just stupid, because obviously they're all past members, especially the dead ones. However, for a historical group it's perfectly valid to have a heading saying "Members", which is what the Infobox field "Current members" generates. The word "current" does not appear. What we need for this article are headings saying "Members" and "Earlier members". HiLo48 (talk) 01:08, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I quote you, from above, "obviously they're all past members", which is my point exactly, so why are we taking such great lengths to re-inventing the wheel here? because the Beatles are special? — GabeMc (talk) 01:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

The Beatles were a group that is still very well known, but which no longer exists. That the Infobox forces us to put any names at all in a field it calls "Current members" shows how inappropriate that Infobox is for this group, and for any other group that no longer exists. It's square-peg-in-round-hole stuff. Dumb. HiLo48 (talk) 01:22, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree in principle, but why then, should we put any names into the "members" section for a group that no longer exists? Can you make a good arguement against putting all six names in "Past Members" that does not involve a form of special exception for this band because people love them so much? If not why not? Why should we treat the Beatles different than any other defunct band? I could argue that The Jimi Hendrix Experience had an equally significant influence on modern rock. — GabeMc (talk) 01:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support - I said at Pink Floyd some time ago that I never liked the way it was done here, and I'm glad it's finally being pursued down to the finest minutiae. It was never an accurate detailing of the members/past members/dead members. It, and not The Beatles, was the anomaly. The infobox is there to provide an accurate summary for the reader who is not familiar with the topic, not to please the eccentricities of the topic's devotees. Please keep the discussion rolling! Radiopathy •talk• 01:35, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages articles that use Oxford spelling
• Misplaced Pages articles that use British English
• Misplaced Pages featured articles
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
• Misplaced Pages former featured articles
• Old requests for peer review
• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• FA-Class biography articles
• FA-Class biography (musicians) articles
• Top-importance biography (musicians) articles
• Musicians work group articles
• FA-Class biography (core) articles
• Core biography articles
• Top-importance biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• FA-Class Rock music articles
• Top-importance Rock music articles
• WikiProject Rock music articles
• FA-Class Merseyside articles
• Top-importance Merseyside articles
• WikiProject Merseyside articles
• FA-Class The Beatles articles
• Top-importance The Beatles articles
• FA-Class John Lennon articles
• FA-Class Paul McCartney articles
• FA-Class Ringo Starr articles
• FA-Class George Harrison articles
• FA-Class Brian Epstein articles
• FA-Class George Martin articles
• FA-Class Apple Corps and Apple Records articles
• WikiProject The Beatles articles
• FA-Class England-related articles
• Top-importance England-related articles
• WikiProject England pages
• Selected anniversaries (September 2009)
• Selected anniversaries (September 2010)
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press