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Revision as of 12:14, 23 April 2012 editBrownHairedGirl (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers2,942,733 edits Added rename nomination of Category:Old Westminsters. (TW)← Previous edit Revision as of 12:20, 23 April 2012 edit undoBrownHairedGirl (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers2,942,733 edits →Category:Old Westminsters: add rationaleNext edit →
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<!-- Please add the newest nominations below this line --> <!-- Please add the newest nominations below this line -->
==== Category:Old Westminsters ==== ==== Category:Old Westminsters ====
:'''Propose renaming''' ] to ] :'''Propose renaming''': ] to ]
:'''Nominator's rationale''': '''Rename''', to a standardised descriptive format (see ] and note below) which combines a ] phrase with the title of the head article. This clarifies the purpose of the category to the non-specialist reader for whom Misplaced Pages is written, by eliminating obscurity and ambiguity.
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Rationale to follow in a few minutes. Please hang on before commenting. -- ] <small>] • (])</small> 12:14, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
:The proposed name follows the "People educated at Foo" convention of {{cl|People educated by school in the United Kingdom}}. Since ], this convention is now used by by all but 11 of the ~1,045 people-by-school categories in the UK. It adds a geogrpahical disambiguator to distinguish the London school from the many other similarly-named schools listed at ].
:] is one of the most prominent ]s in the United Kingdom. However, the term "Old Westminsters" is highly ambiguous. ] list many different meanings, and an "old Westminster" could refer to all sorts of things, such as an old ] car or an old ] helicopter. The ambiguity is demonstrated by the fact that a throws up masses of false positives. As shown by the table below, the plural term "Old Westminsters" is much less widely-used than the the Old Fooian terms for the two most prominent schools, Eton and Harrow.
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="font-size:90%"
! Articles !! Category !! CER<ref name="CER">'''C''' = "Clarendon Group" of schools reformed by the ]; '''E''' = ]; '''R''' = ]</ref> !! School !! {{nowrap|GNews hits}}<br />{{nowrap|''school name''}} !! {{nowrap|GNews hits}}<br />{{nowrap|"Old Fooian"}} !! Notes !! {{nowrap|GNews hits}}<br />{{nowrap|"Old FooianS"}} !! Notes
|-
| 360 || ] || C R || {{nowrap|]}} || || || Abbout 35 of these hits refer old Old Cathusian monks, Old Carthiusian monsateries etc || || Some of these hits are for the eponymous sports club
|-
| 285 || ] || R || ] || || || || || Hits mostly relate to the eponymous sports club
|-
| 2437 || ] || C E || ] || || || || ||
|-
| 738 || ] || R || ] || || || || ||
|-
| 188 || ] || R || ] || || || || || At least 13 of the 27 hits are for the sports club
|-
| 354 || ] || E || ] || || || || ||
|-
| 113 || ] || R || ] || || || || ||
|-
| 445 || ] || C R || ] || || || || ||
|-
| 208 || ] || C R || ] || || || || ||
|- style="background-color:#EEFFEE"
| 646 || {{nowrap|]}} || C E || ] || || || Masses of false positives for "Old Westminster" and "Westminster school" || ||
|-
| 602 || ] || C R || ] || || || || ||
|-
|}

:In previous discussions, some editors have expressed a preference for retaining "Old Fooian" category names for prominent schools. However, there has been a consensus to rename such categories where the "Old Fooian" terms is obscure or ambiguous, including:
{{collapse top|24 renamed categories for Old Fooians from prominent schools}}
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="font-size:90%"
! Articles !! Category !! Old Fooian term !! School !! CER<ref name="CER" /> || CfD
|-
| 112 || ] || Old Amplefordians || ] || || ]
|-
| 76 || ] || Old Bradfieldians || ] || R || ]
|-
| 61 || ] || Old Bryanstonians || ] || E || ]
|-
| 170 || ] || Old Cheltonians || ] || R || ]
|-
| 152 || ] || Old Blues || ] || || ]
|-
| 100 || ] || Old Gregorians || ] || || ]
|-
| 250 || ] || Old Alleynians || ] || E || ]
|-
| 104 || ] || Old Fettesians || ] || || ]
|-
| 215 || ] || Old Greshamians || ] || || ]
|-
| 104 || ] || Old Cholmeleian || ] || E || ]
|-
| 148 || ] || Old King's || ] || E || ] and ]
|-
| 193 || ] || {{nowrap|Old Merchant Taylors}} || ] || C || ]
|-
| 111 || ] || Old Millfieldians || ] || || ]
|-
| 24 || ] || Old Monktonians || ] || R || ]
|-
| 50 || ] || Old St Edwards || ] || R || ]
|-
| 74 || ] || Old Oundelians || ] || R || ]
|-
| 245 || ] || Old Paulines || ] || C E || ]
|-
| 107 || ] || Old Stoics || ] || R || ]
|-
| 75 || ] || {{nowrap|Old King's Scholars}} || ] || E || ]
|-
| 144 || ] || Old Reptonians || ] || R || ]
|-
| 122 || ] || Old Shirburnians || ] || E || ]
|-
| 122 || ] || Old Tonbridgians || ] || E || ]
|-
| 185 || ] || Old Gowers || ] || E || ]
|-
| 135 || ] || Old Uppinghamians || ] || R || ]
|}
{{collapse bottom}}
{{reflist}}
:Note that in previous discussions of "Old Fooian" categoiries, some editors who appear not to have read ] have claimed that the full phrase "People educated at Foo School" must be sourced. This is incorrect: ] explicitly says that such titles "are often invented specifically for articles", and that is the case here, where a ] phrase is combined with the ] of the school. (A further paragraph of NDESC refers to the use of non-neutral terms in titles, which does not apply here). However, if editors do want sourcing despite the lack of a requirement for it, then please note that a throws up 87 hits, which is more than twice as many as the .
:Descriptive titles are used in tens of thousands of Misplaced Pages categories, including the closely-related example of the heavily-populated ]. The use of ]s as category names for people from towns and cities is specifically deprecated in the ]. That issue was settled at CfD back in ] and has been incorporated in the guideline since at least . --] <small>] • (])</small> 12:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
===== Discussion (Old Westminsters) =====

==== Category:Yes (band) Yessongs ==== ==== Category:Yes (band) Yessongs ====
:'''Propose deleting''': ] - {{lc1|Yes (band) Yessongs}}<br /> :'''Propose deleting''': ] - {{lc1|Yes (band) Yessongs}}<br />

Revision as of 12:20, 23 April 2012

< April 22 April 24 >

April 23

NEW NOMINATIONS

Category:Old Westminsters

Propose renaming: Category:Old Westminsters to Category:People educated at Westminster School, London
Nominator's rationale: Rename, to a standardised descriptive format (see WP:NDESC and note below) which combines a plain English phrase with the title of the head article. This clarifies the purpose of the category to the non-specialist reader for whom Misplaced Pages is written, by eliminating obscurity and ambiguity.
The proposed name follows the "People educated at Foo" convention of Category:People educated by school in the United Kingdom. Since 305 "Old Fooian" categories have been renamed in 82 separate CfDs, this convention is now used by by all but 11 of the ~1,045 people-by-school categories in the UK. It adds a geogrpahical disambiguator to distinguish the London school from the many other similarly-named schools listed at Westminster School (disambiguation).
Westminster School is one of the most prominent public schools in the United Kingdom. However, the term "Old Westminsters" is highly ambiguous. Westminster (disambiguation) list many different meanings, and an "old Westminster" could refer to all sorts of things, such as an old Westminster car or an old Westminster helicopter. The ambiguity is demonstrated by the fact that a Google News search for the singular form "Old Westminster" throws up masses of false positives. As shown by the table below, the plural term "Old Westminsters" is much less widely-used than the the Old Fooian terms for the two most prominent schools, Eton and Harrow.
Articles Category CER School GNews hits
school name		 GNews hits
"Old Fooian"		 Notes GNews hits
"Old FooianS"		 Notes
360 Old Carthusians C R Charterhouse School 703 97 Abbout 35 of these hits refer old Old Cathusian monks, Old Carthiusian monsateries etc 76 Some of these hits are for the eponymous sports club
285 Old Cliftonians R Clifton College 1240 36 28 Hits mostly relate to the eponymous sports club
2437 Old Etonians C E Eton College 7930 4290 1210
738 Old Harrovians R Harrow School 2980 417 78
188 Old Malvernians R Malvern School 287 7 27 At least 13 of the 27 hits are for the sports club
354 Old Marlburians E Marlborough College 2370 27 12
113 Old Radleians R Radley College 562 8 16
445 Old Rugbeians C R Rugby School 3730 26 20
208 Old Salopians C R Shrewsbury School 1630 38 10
646 Old Westminsters C E Westminster School 11,000 4210 Masses of false positives for "Old Westminster" and "Westminster school" 37
602 Old Wykehamists C R Winchester College 1420 38 20
In previous discussions, some editors have expressed a preference for retaining "Old Fooian" category names for prominent schools. However, there has been a consensus to rename such categories where the "Old Fooian" terms is obscure or ambiguous, including:
24 renamed categories for Old Fooians from prominent schools
Articles Category Old Fooian term School CER CfD
112 People educated at Ampleforth College Old Amplefordians Ampleforth College CfD 2012 March 19
76 People educated at Bradfield College Old Bradfieldians Bradfield College R CfD 2012 March 31
61 People educated at Bryanston School Old Bryanstonians Bryanston School E CfD 2012 March 31
170 People educated at Cheltenham College Old Cheltonians Cheltenham College R CfD 2012 February 29
152 People educated at Christ's Hospital Old Blues Christ's Hospital CfD 2012 April 2
100 People educated at Downside School Old Gregorians Downside School CfD 2012 February 21
250 People educated at Dulwich College Old Alleynians Dulwich College E CfD 2012 April 7
104 People educated at Fettes College Old Fettesians Fettes College CfD 2012 March 19
215 People educated at Gresham's School Old Greshamians Gresham's School CfD 2012 April 14
104 People educated at Highgate School Old Cholmeleian Highgate School E CfD 2012 February 22
148 People educated at King's College School, Wimbledon Old King's King's College School E CfD 2011 August 17 and 2010 November 29
193 People educated at Merchant Taylors' School, Northwood Old Merchant Taylors Merchant Taylors' School, Northwood C CfD 2012 February 11
111 People educated at Millfield Old Millfieldians Millfield CfD 2012 March 19
24 People educated at Monkton Combe School Old Monktonians Monkton Combe School R CfD 2012 March 31
50 People educated at St Edward's School, Oxford Old St Edwards St Edward's School, Oxford R CfD 2012 February 11
74 People educated at Oundle School Old Oundelians Oundle School R CfD 2012 March 31
245 People educated at St Paul's School, London Old Paulines St Paul's School, London C E CfD 2012 February 26
107 People educated at Stowe School Old Stoics Stowe School R CfD 2012 February 9
75 People educated at The King's School, Canterbury Old King's Scholars The King's School, Canterbury E CfD 2012 March 6
144 People educated at Repton School Old Reptonians Repton School R CfD 2012 March 31
122 People educated at Sherborne School Old Shirburnians Sherborne School E CfD 2012 March 31
122 People educated at Tonbridge School Old Tonbridgians Tonbridge School, Kent E CfD 2012 February 28
185 People educated at University College School Old Gowers University College School, London E CfD 2012 February 25
135 People educated at Uppingham School Old Uppinghamians Uppingham School R CfD 2012 March 31
  1. ^ C = "Clarendon Group" of schools reformed by the Public Schools Act 1868; E = Eton Group; R = Rugby Group
Note that in previous discussions of "Old Fooian" categoiries, some editors who appear not to have read WP:NDESC have claimed that the full phrase "People educated at Foo School" must be sourced. This is incorrect: WP:NDESC explicitly says that such titles "are often invented specifically for articles", and that is the case here, where a plain English phrase is combined with the WP:COMMONNAME of the school. (A further paragraph of NDESC refers to the use of non-neutral terms in titles, which does not apply here). However, if editors do want sourcing despite the lack of a requirement for it, then please note that a Google News search for the phrase "Educated at Westminster School" throws up 87 hits, which is more than twice as many as the 37 Gnews hits for the jargon term "Old Westminsters".
Descriptive titles are used in tens of thousands of Misplaced Pages categories, including the closely-related example of the heavily-populated Category:People by city. The use of demonyms as category names for people from towns and cities is specifically deprecated in the Categorization of people guideline. That issue was settled at CfD back in July 2006 and has been incorporated in the guideline since at least August 2006. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Discussion (Old Westminsters)

Category:Yes (band) Yessongs

Propose deleting: Category:Yes (band) Yessongs - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. This is a pointless category for one album, which is un-needed because the relevant articles are already adequately interlinked.
See also the related discussion further down this page about Category:Yes (band) Yessongs songs. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:29, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Keep The category includes a subcategory of the notable media (cover, and 4 Roger Dean paintings) and a subcategory of songs.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:40, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Johann Strauss II

Propose deleting: Category:Johann Strauss II - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Eponymous categories are discouraged--only contains main article and one subcat. Why does this exist? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:16, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Watches (specific model)

Propose renaming Category:Watches (specific model) to Category:Watch models
Nominator's rationale: Natural disambiguation, matches category:Watch brands. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 07:16, 23 April 2012 (UTC) ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 07:16, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Supergroups

Propose renaming Category:Supergroups to Category:Supergroup (music)
Nominator's rationale: Rename. To match main article and remove ambiguous current name. I also wonder how subjective the inclusion criteria is? So deletion could be on the table. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:12, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Slovene painters

Propose merging Category:Slovene painters to Category:Slovenian painters
Nominator's rationale: Merge.
  • This was an opposed speedy, and raises an issue that could become confusing. The copy of the speedy nomination should be read for full context of the nomination. This particular category is for ethnic Slovene painters; the suggested target is for painters of Slovenian nationality. The merge was opposed on the grounds that we need the distinction because the concept of a Slovenian nationality did not emerge until the 1840s. However, it was countered that in WP categorization, we categorize Dante Alighieri as "Italian" even though there was no Italian nationality at the time, and the same goes for most other nationalities. I agree with this basic approach when it comes to categories, which is a relatively blunt instrument to describe someone's national/ethnic background and group it with others. The difficult subtlties are best dealt with by actual article text, not by categories with extremely fine distinctions.
  • At the time of the speedy nomination, this was an isolated issue, with only one article being categorized as "Slovene", but following the discussion below, the user who opposed the merge created a fairly expansive new structure of "Slovene FOOs" categories, which sometimes involved the emptying out of corresponding "Slovenian FOOs" category. So this is a bit of a test case to get a broader view of what we are going to do with this new Slovene/Slovenian dual categorization scheme. Right now, the parent categories for both are Category:Ethnic Slovene people and Category:Slovenian people.
  • Adding further complication to the issue is the fact that most dictionary definitions of "Slovene" include a definition that is equivalent to the meaning of "Slovenian" on Misplaced Pages, and in many cases the two different words are simply treated as synonyms. Good Ol’factory 04:02, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
copy of speedy discussion
  • Or we should populate the category. Per WP:CAT: "Categorization must be verifiable" and "Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial." So because 'Slovenian painters' (by nationality) is controversial and unsourced, if this category is deleted, only 'Gorizian painters' remains, and this introduces bias, because a main characteristic of the subject is ignored. I also don't see anywhere written that a category must have a minimum number of members (except for being empty). --Eleassar 10:35, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I'd be more inclined to just treat the Slovenian nationality as we tend to treat other nationalities in categorization, per Mais oui's comment above. I don't think doing so would be broadly controversial. Good Ol’factory 21:09, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
  • From the point of view of experts (historians), it is controversial (as may be seen e.g. from my talk page regarding the nationality of Trubar), and it is unsourced. --Eleassar 09:46, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
  • I think when we say "controversial", we mean controversial within WP among the consensus of its editors, not controversial in a group claimed by a WP editor. I doubt it would be controversial to the former. Good Ol’factory 03:51, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Er, yes ... didn't you write that immediately above? That was the same comment I was referring to. Or is this a competition as to who can say present their argument the most times, or last? Good Ol’factory 06:07, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
  • He could be included in the “Slovenian” category, as many countries are regarded as existing before their unification/creation, with Australia having an article and category for 1788. Many present-day countries were only unified in the 19th century (Canada, Germany, Italy) or 20th century (Australia, South Africa). Hugo999 (talk) 22:54, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
  • In light of the large issues involved here, I strongly suggest that this decision take place pursuant to a Full CFD discussion that includes the entire category tree. Cgingold (talk) 23:17, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment - not only was there "no Italian nationality at the time" of Alighieri, there was no "nationality" (in the legal sense) full stop. To take another slant, yesterday I was horrified to discover that Misplaced Pages was describing the Roanoke Colony as a "British colony" (sic) in its Infobox and categories (although thankfully not in the actual article text). Now this was122 years prior to the establishment of the British state, and over 350 years prior to the legal invention of UK citizenship. So, how on earth those poor men, women and children could ever be called "British" colonists is totally beyond my comprehension. Misplaced Pages is, I'm afraid, jam-packed full of such idiocies. I blame the very early Users who first decided to categorise by nationality alone, and not by citizenship too. Please note that our wiser colleagues at WikiMedia Commons have Category:People of the United Kingdom, cat:People of the United States etc. This is a very intelligent and useful scheme and ought to be adopted here, in addition to our categorisation by nationality. For example, Bermudan people are British, but are currently excluded from all our British biography cats. Now, they ought to be excluded from all our UK biography cats, but never from our British cats. --Mais oui! (talk) 04:48, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Orders with sash worn on the left shoulder

Propose deleting: Category:Orders with sash worn on the left shoulder - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. This seems like a trivial characteristic. Good Ol’factory 03:33, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Yes (band) Yessongs songs

Propose merging Category:Yes (band) Yessongs songs to Category:Yes (band) songs
Nominator's rationale: Upmerge. I believe that we have had consensus in the past not to subcategorize songs by particular album. This is an example of such a subcategorization—Yessongs is a particular album. I suggest upmerging to the parent category that contains all songs by the band. Good Ol’factory 03:14, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Artists' muses

Propose deleting: Category:Artists' muses - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Calling someone a "muse" for an artist or writer is often a subjective call. We've deleted categories very similar to this in the past: Fashion muses; Muses of famous writers, but the discussions have not been heavily participated in. I'm wondering where we should go with this type of category. Good Ol’factory 03:10, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Television series by HIT Entertainment

Propose renaming Category:Television series by HIT Entertainment to Category:Television series by Hit Entertainment
Nominator's rationale: Correcting capitalization per WP:MOSCAPS. Trivialist (talk) 02:07, 23 April 2012 (UTC)