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Revision as of 14:19, 24 April 2012

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Criticism of Israel article

Will you be doing more editing on that article? Koakhtzvigad (talk) 11:26, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Criticism of the Israeli government

Hi. Please familiarize yourself with Misplaced Pages's rules concerning free images (those unencumbered by copyright) and the fair use of non-free images. We can use a photo of a book cover only to illustrate an article that discusses the book, and even then the image needs a fair use rationale. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:37, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Note to Once: There are fossils of various types in the area, but
when referring to the past 99 centuries, 'fossil' would not apply.

Request for sources in Talk:Palestine

I'm on the road and can't remember my password, which is not stored in this laptop.

To incorporate all those points in the article, with references, would require substantial editing, which I predict would be resisted.

Also, I would prefer if the article was defined, and its structure stabilised before these points are added.

What do you think? Koakhtzvigad 58.178.163.234 (talk) 02:09, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

I had in mind that if you could source those statements and the underlying conclusion, we would be able to build consensus to use it to structure the article. Oncenawhile (talk) 02:13, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Jewish revolt against Heraclius

Following your work on Nehemiah ben Hushiel, I created a page on Benjamin of Tiberias. Let's keep on this project and thank you for cooperation.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:53, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Made general updates on Jewish revolt against Heraclius, you are welcome to contribute more.Greyshark09 (talk) 13:27, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Juedeo-Aramaic on Bar Kokhba coinage?

I'm at a loss to understand why you keep pushing that label on the coins. You provide two refs, yet neither uses that term. Then there are other sources which explicitly place the text as Paleo-Hebrew: Bar Kokhba Coins from Masada, 132-135 CE and Bar Kokhba Coin, 132-135 CE. Any reason not to revert? Poliocretes (talk) 09:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Disruptive Editing

I have noticed you changing multiple links on Misplaced Pages from History of the Southern Levant to History of Palestine. Here, here, here as well as here where you rather directed away from the page. I understand that you are upset that your name change was not successful, however to simply change all of the wikipedia links to your new article is WP:Disruptive Editing Misplaced Pages:Disruptive_editing Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Don%27t_disrupt_Wikipedia_to_make_a_point Drsmoo (talk) 21:57, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

You are correct that these links were changed, but your understanding of the rationale is not correct. You will be aware that Southern Levant defines a wider area (or set of areas) than Palestine, and that certain articles are more relevant to former rather than the latter. The three articles in question all discuss topics which are more relevant to Palestine than the Southern Levant as shown below:

• Archaeology of Israel - includes two references to Palestine, and discusses the West Bank, but does not mention Southern Levant anywhere
• History of Zionism - includes over 100 references to Palestine, as Zionism and the concept of Palestine are intrinsically linked. No mention of Southern Levant
• History of the Jews in the Land of Israel - includes 35 references to Palestine and only one to Southern Levant. The article is about the historical narrative of zionism, and therefore as above is intrinsically linked to the concept of palestine
• Land of Israel#Historical Kingdoms - this link was changed to History of ancient Israel and Judah, not History of Palestine - if you read the article you will note that such a link is more appropriate.

Please could you kindly self-revert?

Oncenawhile (talk) 08:52, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The Southern Levant is synonymous with both Israel, Palestine and Jordan, a history of the Southern Levant includes a history of ancient Israel and Palestine, which is the reason the links were chosen. Substituting the links from a History of the Southern Levant to a History of Palestine only provides less relevant information, as for example, the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah extended into Jordan and Syria. You could have simply added a link to the History of Palestine, it's the replacing of one link with the other which I find confusing. Drsmoo (talk) 17:53, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your last point - I was thinking that when I saw you do exactly the same with your reverts. Oncenawhile (talk) 00:12, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

If you agreed with my last point then you shouldn't have done it in the first place. I simply reverted the edits because it was quicker. If you had added a link to History of Palestine without removing anything, I wouldn't have changed it. Nor will I change it if you add the links now/in the future. Drsmoo (talk) 00:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Template moving

I just saw what you and TheCuriousGnome did this evening. While you may blame TheCuriousGnome for starting it, you should not have reverted. I reported TheCuriousGnome at WP:ANEW; I have half a mind to report you too. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 03:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi Malik, ok thanks for letting me know - am sorry to hear that. Please could you explain why I should not have reverted - I honestly thought i had been acting as a model wiki-zen? Oncenawhile (talk) 03:28, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry if I came on too strong. You had no way of knowing how TheCuriousGnome would respond, but your revert seems to have provoked a strong reaction. I guess it's a good thing you stopped when you did. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 03:48, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be best if everybody stopped worrying about the name of the template and tried to focus instead on its content, don't you? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 23:08, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Frankly, I think you should heed the advice User:EdJohnston gave at WP:ANEW: "Anyone who proposes to reorganize templates in the I/P area needs a lot of patience and ought to listen carefully for consensus."

But move it if you must. I won't interfere. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 02:28, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I've already explained why I don't think it should be moved. On top of that, anybody who types Template:Palestine topics is redirected to the new name. If you feel so strongly about moving the template, please find another administrator and convince her/him to move it. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 02:50, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

RM alert

There's a move request discussion going on at Talk:Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority#Requested move, with which you were previously involved. I'd be grateful if you could contribute to the new discussion. Nightw 08:23, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Timeline of the region of Palestine

Since I know you have a lot of knowledge in the subject matter I would gladly appreciate any help you can provide in improving this article (which I have recently created). TheCuriousGnome (talk) 14:21, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

TCG, thanks for your message. I saw your new article, which I think is a good idea. I can add a lot to it pretty quickly, but I have a few reservations. Firstly, the name, which I would prefer to be consistent with "History of Palestine", but could live with "History of Palestine (region)". Secondly, there are a few (not many) statements in there at the moment which are wrong, and I do not want to get into another edit war with you. I am still very disappointed with what happened with Template:Palestine topics - our positions were not far apart, but our interaction undermined the template rather than improved it. So I am in two minds... Oncenawhile (talk) 16:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed this is not an easy topic to cover. I want this article to contain all major events in the region of Palestine which are significant to ALL parties. This is a task which I would not be able to achieve by myself - I need the assistance of many contributers from many different backgrounds to work together to achieve this goal. Since I know you have a lot of information in this field, I was hoping you would be able to cooperate with me to achieve this goal. All the events which are currently covered in the article (as well as the phrasing of the sentences) are open for further discussion among the contributers of the article, especially in any future cases of disagreement among contributors, in order for us to achieve an accurate, well written, comprehensive article which would be phrased in an unbiased way. I myself am also still unhappy with the recent difference of opinions and related edit war over what content should be included in the namespace "Template:Palestine topics". Either way, I would completely understand if at this point you would choose to decline my offer. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 19:45, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Pally people

Don't throw around accusations like vandalism. All the material I removed was POV and unsupported/based on poor sources.

All the things I added was good, encyclopedic info.

Am I mistaken? Can you show me what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.160.54.164 (talk) 19:53, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

RM alert

The move request at Talk:Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority was closed, so we're now taking suggestions for an alternative. As you were involved in the previous discussion, I'd be grateful if you could contribute to the new one. Please lodge your support for a proposal, or make one of your own. Nightw 04:22, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Bar Kochba Coins

Sorry, changed my mind. I don't see why a fringe theory should receive such prominence. If you believe this is not the case, feel free to provide references to support your position. I have started a discussion on the article talk page and will notify the relevant wikiprojects. Poliocretes (talk) 15:40, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Demographics

Hy Oncenawhile Yes I made two corrections.Fist I corrected the name of the chapter as all sources given indicate eighter relative or absolute Jewish majority.I don't see any conflicting results given.Second the reference Harrel and Stendel, 1974 was quoted twice,once correctly which I left and second time incorrectly,(showing two different results).I removed it. Third I didn't remove the only source indicating Muslim plurality in section 1830-69: Conflicting estimates regarding Muslim or Jewish plurality ref Yigal Shiloh, 1980 although the page given is nonfunctional. There was one additional quote given which didn't match the source which was given.I would like to see that quote on the page,but given correctly without misleading interpretations — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tritomex (talk • contribs) 18:39, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Palestine

There was no reason to revert the page... It was only a few sentences and before that there was only three or four words mentioning the Achemenid Empire or on Persian influence over the area while mentioning a lot of the Roman and Arab influence. Please do not revert a page simply based on your own opinions as you did on the article Palestine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xythianos (talk • contribs) 19:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Who is a Palestinian? for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Who is a Palestinian? is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Speedy deletion nomination of Who is a Palestinian?

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Merge discussion for Al-Sinnabra

An article that you have been involved in editing, Al-Sinnabra , has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Sreifa (talk) 05:12, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Merging

Please express your opinion over the relisted suggestion to merge the article Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict into Timeline of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Both articles are substantially the same, and shouldn't exist in separate. You can participate in the discussion here Talk:Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict#Merging with Timeline of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:21, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

==History of the name Palestine==

Hi Oncenawhile

I do not see any reason for removing my section to this article. All sources are well documented and are strictly related to this subject.You can edit, expand this section and merge it with my text. The etymology section, is the first chapter in every Misplaced Pages article, relating to other nations as well. I strongly believe that there is need for this chapter, as this is the only place were details regarding the etymology of the name Palestine can be explained. The fact that parts of this section may relate to the Philistines doesn't exclude the need for the existence of this chapter here. Therefore, please do not delete my contribution but expand it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tritomex (talk • contribs) 09:35, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikiquette discussion board

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False edit summary

In this edit summary you accused me of not participating at all at the talk page. Your accusation is false. Please refactor your accusation and your edit once you're at it. Thanks. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:03, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

ANI

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Siege of Jerusalem

Hi Oncenawhile, thank you for taking the time to add to the article, but I do feel that much of the detail is rather irrelevant to the subject matter. It turns the background the into the heart of the article. For instance, I don't see how the carving of Judea into 5 districts has anything to do with the siege. I'm therefore removing certain setences, but I'll be sure to leave informative edit summeries if you with to contest my edits. Poliocretes (talk) 16:56, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Made a dispute resolution request

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "History of pottery in the Southern Levant, History of pottery in Palestine". Thank you.

I shouldn't.... but ...

... LOL ... talknic (talk) 18:00, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Jerusalem: Abode of Peace

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Palestinian Citizenship 1925

http://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Palestinian_Citizenship_Order_1925.jpg at the top of the document Palestinian Citizenship 1925 Does it really matter if the remainder of the document is in Hebrew? A translation will not change the document's English ... talknic (talk) 06:38, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Naming Conventions for Locations in Jerusalem

Hi, I've put up a proposal re: Naming Conventions for Locations in Jerusalem here (http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Israel_Palestine_Collaboration/Current_Article_Issues#Naming_Conventions_for_Locations_in_Jerusalem) and would very much appreciate any comments you have on this issue. BothHandsBlack (talk) 19:04, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Truman trusteeship proposal

The article Truman trusteeship proposal has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Merge into History of Palestine; not notable enough for standalone article.

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Nomination of Truman trusteeship proposal for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Truman trusteeship proposal is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Edits on Palestine

Hi, I'm the admin who fully protected Palestine. After reviewing the edit history a second time, I notice that your edits are just barely within what is allowed at those articles. That is, all articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict are under what is called general sanctions and 1RR as a result of the arbitration decision found at WP:ARBPIA. While your edits never cross 1RR, you came very close. Between the first edit and the the second one there was a period of just over 27 hours, and between the second and the third one was a period of less than 25 hours. It looks like you're trying to "get in" your one edit per day as soon as possible. Please note, though, that even though 1 revert per day is the limit, it's not an entitlement--you can be blocked for showing a period of edit warring over time. Please consider this a formal warning under WP:ARBPIA (which I'll log), and know that any further disruption can result in your account being blocked. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:48, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

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Mandate Palestine

Thanks for including the sources. I had been meaning to include them somewhere, but hadn't quite worked out how. Dlv999 (talk) 17:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

League of Nations journal

You have mail... Zero 09:52, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Palestinians are not Arabs?

"The name Palestinian applies in contemporary times to Muslim and Christian Arabs who inhabited Palestine." An Arab is, "a member of an Arabic-speaking people." Kauffner (talk) 10:42, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

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Palestinian Infobox

Hi Oncenawhile, my current edit back to the Palestinian Infobox including St. George has met reverting, I have removed Saint George from that collage for now and re-uploaded it under that same file name, I was wondering if you would care to edit it on the article back to the infobox, revert Shrike, and state that we removed Saint George pending consensus. Because currently Shrike has reverted the infobox back to a version from 2 years ago that only contains 8 palestinians. Lazyfoxx (talk) 18:18, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Palestinian People

The article is semi-protected.

There are numerous counter-exemples of People who have a national identity much older than 250 years.

• English
• Spanish
• Slavic Peoples
• Mongols
• French
• Japenese
• ...

There should be two articles. One about the Modern Palestinian People and one about Unhabitants of Palestine. 81.247.85.132 (talk) 13:26, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry but you are wrong. Please research the articles on nationalism I pointed to before discussing this further. Oncenawhile (talk) 15:22, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

"Dear Jayjg, I am so sorry - i must have hurt your feelings. Please respond to the following questions which go directly to article content: Do you agree with the statement that "no ethnicity in the world can claim a national conciousness more than 250 years old"? If so, how come most other wiki-articles about national people are able to include figures from before the age of nationalism? Oncenawhile (talk) 18:39, 11 March 2012 (UTC)"

Of course. It is not because it is written in wikipedia that national started with French revolution that there was no national identity before.

For what concerns another of your comment about the priest of 1300. Since that time an even before, there was a Kingdom of England that was a very precise geographic and political entity with a King of England to whom all citizens refer.

I add that according to this "argument", Jesus is no Palestinian either.

81.247.76.22 (talk) 18:52, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

See my comment to Anonmoos in the chain further above starting "But reread your post above and you'll see the issue - who are you or I to be deciding what factors make a historical person a Palestinian. We are just wikipedians. We have to let RS decide. My explanations about nationalism are just to help you understand why RS call Jesus and St. George Palestinian - because "nationalism" is more an artform than a science. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:30, 11 March 2012 (UTC)" Oncenawhile (talk) 19:05, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

There is no wp:rs who call Jesus a Palestinian in the sense of a member of the Palestinian People.

They call him a Palestinian in the sense of an unhabitant of the area of Palestine.

81.247.219.50 (talk) 06:29, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Can you explain what you mean in reference to other Misplaced Pages articles about a national people? A few examples would help. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:57, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Here is an exemple of a very young nation : Flemish people

Here is one of a very old nation : Han Chinese

91.180.122.229 (talk) 10:10, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

The Flemish people article does not have a list of people. So let's look instead at List of Flemish painters. For example, did the Bruegel family consider themselves as a "member of the Flemish people"?. The Chinese people article is the same - did Confucius or Sun Tzu consider themselves members of the Chinese people? The answer to both questions is a resounding no. So if the Breugels did not consider themselves "Flemish" and Confucius did not consider himself "Chinese", and we are ok to call the Bruegels Flemish and Confucius Chinese, can you explain your why it should be relevant whether Jesus thought of himself as "Palestinian"? Oncenawhile (talk) 15:35, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

How do you figure Confucius wouldn't call himself Chinese? He knew he was writting the Chinese language. He worked for one of the many states of China that existed at the time. After leaving his job, he toured around an area that he most likely thought of as "China" teaching his philosophy to his "people," the Han. Do people need political unity to be a people? Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 21:57, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure what to say, as your post contains so many misunderstandings about chinese history, identity and language. Every statement you made was incorrect! Let me start with the basics. Confucius was from the state of Lu - his allegience was there. There was simply no concept of "China" at the time. The "Han" dynasty hadn't come into existence yet, nor had the "Qin" dynasty (from which we take the name China) unified the country. We have no idea what language Confucius spoke (the Chinese script is ideographic) and most scholars do not believe Confucius wrote the books attributed to him (chinese script was not uniform at that point). Now what? Either you take my word for it, or you go and read a bit about chinese historiography. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:54, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I think your confusion about Chinese history stems from your lack of understanding of the difference between the Chinese words "zhong" and "han." You say that Qin is the basis of the English word China. You do know that the Chinese had a written character for "zhong" and "han" at the time of Confucius, right? The language wasn't uniform, but was close enough to be called the Han script (that's what its still called today). The ethnic group "Han" isn't uniform today or back then either, but the Han people realized that they were a group, different from the people around them. The Han dynasty was named after the Han people, not the other way around. They had a name for themselves, their language, and their land. Hanpeople, Hantalk, Hanland.

The modern country of China is different from Hanland. China is what a bunch of greedy commies were able to grab, it includes other people's land and culture. But the Zhou dynasty (that Confusius lived in) was more or less Hanland, the ancestral homeland of Han people. The Chinese word "zhong" translates into English as "Chinese." It, unlike Han, can mean anything related to the modern PRC or it's ancestors. But the word Han means ethnic Han people, their language, land, and identity. Although the White Man's idea of what is "China" has been in flux, Chinese people know what is the Han nation. They know it's history is over three thousand years old, and it includes Confusius. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 00:53, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Please do some proper research before you question this again. Again you have thrown out a bunch of statements which are simply incorrect. I do not have the inclination to continue teaching you about Chinese history.

Perhaps the most absurd was your statement "The Han dynasty was named after the Han people"! I have never heard anything like it! The term Han comes from Hanzhong, the city where Emperor Gaozu of Han stayed before the Chu–Han Contention began. During and following the Han Dynasty, it became a term to differentiate between "civilized people" and "barbarians" - much like the terms tangren and huaxia were used. And Zhong means "middle" (the full word you were referrring to is zhongguo or "middle kingdom") - again, it was used historically to refer simply to what was seen as the civilized world.

But back to the point - Confucius lived 300 years before all this, during the heavily fragmented Spring and Autumn Period. He could not possibly have considered himself Chinese or Han.

If you want to continue this debate, please do some research first. A source showing scholarly debate around the existence of "Chineseness" during the Spring and Autumn Period would be helpful to support your statements. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:42, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Allow me to wrap up this semantics argument, because it is apparent that you aren't familiar with Chinese writing. The Chinese character "zhong (中)" is a pictogram for middle. It is also a rebus for the word that means "Chinese." This is why zhongguo means China-kingdom. America is called meiguo, which means "beautiful kingdom," or America-kingdom. France is faguo, which means "law-kingdom". A rebus is put before the word for kingdom or country.

Sometimes China (Zhongguo) is a political term. What about the main language/writing/food/ethnicity/art of the people of China? Can that be described with zhong? Yes, but it's better to use "Han (汉)", especially for the writing and ethnicity. 3000 years ago, the genetics for both Han people and Han writing (Chinese characters) was mostly formed. During the Spring and Autumn Period, the people recognized that their society had been going to tatters. This is why Confucius travelled and spread his word. He loved his people and wanted it whole again. He read the history books of his time that spoke of the earlier dynasties and their order and law. He was a reviver of earlier morality (like Jesus or Buddha).

Like you point out, zhongguo means "middle kingdom." You say everyone else was a barbarian. Han also differenciates from the others. Exactly. Now you understand what I said. Han and zhong mean Chinese. They knew they were different from the people around them. In Confucius's day, he knew the People, the middle people, the Han were the only ones consistantly making use of rice cultivation and written records. This is civilization. The Chinese had it 3000 years ago, no matter their political Peking Operas. They had it and they knew it and they made a name for it. Han

The Han dynasty was established when Gaozu became the top regional power. But he, unlike past rulers, didn't name his dynasty after his hometown. He gave the dynasty one of the general words for "China" that existed at the time. "zhong" and "han" are two of those words. They predate the city of Hanzhong, which basically means "China heartland." So yes, the Han dynasty is named after the Han people, not the other way around. In Confucius's day and before, what you see written all over the top of the take-out menu is called 汉字, Han characters. Han dynasty didn't invent Han characters, you can't even get a real Chinese dynasty off the ground without a palace full of literate civil servants, who've passed a civil service test you'd obviously fail.

So the Han have a history, written language, and identity that extends for thousands of years. It doesn't matter that Nationalismdidn't come but a few centuries ago. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 23:38, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

To coin a metaphor, it appears you are shooting a machine gun blindfolded. I can see you're trying though, so I will try to continue to humor you until you get bored. To explain, once again, all of your misunderstandings:

• Meiguo and Faguo are words from Transcription into Chinese characters, not rebus's put before the word Kingdom. As with many transcriptions, they were chosen to have additional relevance in their meaning. But your statement misunderstands the order in which these words were created. Anyway, this is not relevant other than to show that you have no idea what you are talking about!
• The character you showed for Han is the simplified version. The relevant version here is the traditional character 漢. As you can see from the Radical (Chinese character) on the left, this originally related to something to do with water (i.e. the Han River (Yangtze River tributary). If you want to double check, look at the Shuowen Jiezi. My copy explains the etymology as follows: 漾也。東爲滄浪水。從水，難省聲。㵄，古文。呼旰切〖註〗臣鉉等曰：難從省，當作堇。而前作相承去土從大，疑兼從古文省。 Unfortunately this is classical chinese so my ability to read it is limited, but there are enough readable words to know that this refers to a province near water.
• You say that Gaozu "gave the dynasty one of the general words for "China" that existed at the time". These sources disagreeHanzhong governmentEncyclopedia Britannica

If you want to keep on pushing this, please bring sources which support your statements. Oncenawhile (talk) 09:04, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate you doing all this wikiresearch to try to pretend to read Chinese characters just to have an argument with me. You see, the radical of Han in its simplified and traditional forms is water. This doesn't disqualify it from being the word for "China" or "Us non-barbarian people." The rebus technique was used extensively during the classical Chinese period you've been furiously googling. Althouth it is reasonable to believe that the character "han" uses the water radical to refer to Han people, since Chinese are the People of the Yellow River.

You're reference to the Shuowen Jiezi is almost self-defeating. The Han dynasty didn't suddenly emerge from nothing, it embodied the Han people and culture that had been there. This is proven by the rich body of literature produced before the Han dynasty. You've already admitted I'm right. You already said that people in Confucius's time called outsiders "barbarians." You are exactly right. Remember, "zhong" means middle. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 16:23, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I notice you have not commented on the sources I provided. Your comment suggests that you disagree with them with your key statement " The Han dynasty didn't suddenly emerge from nothing, it embodied the Han people and culture that had been there." Since your statement is utter nonsense, I would be interested to see the source which backs it up. Or do you not have a source for it? Oncenawhile (talk) 17:18, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Your copy/paste quotation of "classical chinese" is very telling about the continuity of Han culture through its script. A good number of those characters, hanzi(Han characters), are identical to the 1950's simplified script. There are many Chinese scripts, but they all decend from the same set of pictograms and rebus's used by Confucius.

We were arguing about Confucius. I still argue he, and the literati before him, concidered themselves Han, if not the rice farms too. But forget that fortune cookie writer, you got in such a tizzy about this that you proved the original point of this section. To quote your Hanzhong government source...

Since then all the other ethnic nationalities around China revered the Han Dynasty’s power and prosperity, they addressed the Chinese the “Han People”, their characters the “Han Characters”, their language the “Han Language”, etc. No wonder even Encyclopaedia Britannica recorded that “The Han Nationality emerged in the Han Dynasty.”

So as long as we understand that "Chinese" is an English exonym, we understand "han" as a Chinese character (again, a hanzi, Han characters) endonym for the same thing. So, can the Chinese (Han people) claim a national consciousness older than 250 years old? Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 18:17, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

The question of the formalisation of the "Han" identity at the end of the 19th century in order to undermine the Qing ruling class is interesting. If we get in to that, you will understand where you, once again, are missing the key information.

For now though, let's please finish on Confucius. You reiterated your belief that Confucius considered himself "Han" 300 years before the Han dynasty came in to being. Please either provide a source for this ridiculous claim, or retract it. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:36, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

So now that I've gotten you to prove the IP's original argument, with sources, there isn't much need to continue. Before you were saying very clearly that the Han nation began in the Han dynasty, but when it fits your needs the Chinese people weren't Chinese until after the Qing? What were they during the Qing?

As for Pappa C, he lived during a period of political instability. Just cause they was fighting, doesn't mean they didn't acknowledge their shared history and culture. Are West Bankers and Gazans different from each other. In your logic, the Palestinian nation aint born yet.Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 14:45, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Is there a way to make remove the semi-protection on the talk page. That is discrimination versus IP ! ;-) 81.247.214.96 (talk) 22:39, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

John Ball illustration

Thanks for http://molcat1.bl.uk/IllImages/Ekta/big/E025/E025825.jpg link... AnonMoos (talk) 01:15, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Agree that it's far from ideal that Jayg is letting cut-and-pasted-in "I'm offended" templates partly take the place of discussion by him... AnonMoos (talk) 14:25, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

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I handled this one for you. By the way, jiang is Chinese for river, so Hanjiang River means Han river river. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 00:53, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

I made a userbox for you. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 06:14, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks but, whilst it was funny, I am not stubborn. Oncenawhile (talk) 08:50, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

British Mandate relisting

In looking at the discussion, there is support for the move as proposed and for the alternative proposed late in the discussion. Given the history of the article, I would rather way and make sure that we have consensus for the proposed name. What is clear is that there is a consensus to move it from the current name to one of the proposed names. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:57, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Mandatory was only raised today so allowing more time to consider if that is the best option sounds reasonable in my mind. Waiting a week at this point should not present any problems. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:10, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not willing to budge. If you can find an administrator who thinks I'm being overly cautious here and wants to close with a move, I'm not going to object. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:09, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

OK, let me try it this way. I see a clear consensus to rename. However I do not see a consensus as to what the target should be. At first it was 'mandate' but discussions on the last day raised 'mandatory' which knocked mandate out as the consensus choice. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:17, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Again, at the time of the close, there was no consensus for either of the two options. I don't know how I can make that clearer. I know that you are willing to have a bad close so that it can be moved a second time if that is where consensus winds up. But we really only want to do moves to correct targets and if allowing additional discussion gets us to the best solution that is what we should do. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:38, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

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1929 Palestine riots (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

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Please self revert

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 18:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Report of the Commission on the Palestine Disturbances of August 1929 (Shaw report)

Hi. Any idea where I can get a copy of this report? I have been searching everywhere for some work on the 1929 Palestine riots article but have had no luck. Any ideas appreciated. Dlv999 (talk) 19:17, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the help, much appreciated. Dlv999 (talk) 09:39, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

1929 Palestine riots

I doubt that Sela needs attribution since this observation is widely accepted.
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 19:58, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Fine with me. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:58, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Cool. Common ground at last!
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 20:27, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

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Notification

This AE relates to you.
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 14:19, 24 April 2012 (UTC)