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Revision as of 13:04, 18 April 2006

This is a nationalist orgy. A good article could be written on this subject; it might even use the list of boasts in the middle section as a framework - but to ascribe the invention of trigonometry to someone who lived two centuries after Claudius Ptolemy is nonsense. Septentrionalis 19:49, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Many of the claims on this page are patently false. I will do what I can, but this page desperately needs an expert in this field.

Pythagorean Theorem

I don't think there is anyone who thinks the Pythagorus was the first to state the Pythagorean theorem. Indeed it was likely used well before even 800 BC (look at the article). The fact that the Indians were the first to use a "proof with specific numbers" is nonsense. Using specific numbers is not a proof at all, it merely shows one special case. The first real proof we have is due to Euclid. A "proof with specific numbers" does not imply any deeper understanding of geometry, or an understanding of what constitutes a proof. Thus, the pythagorean theorem was used well before Indian mathematicians, and it was first proved by Greek mathematicians. Grokmoo 16:13, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

First of all, calm down. This discussion - what consitutes real proof and what is just silly amatuers dabbling with numbers and have no deep understanding of geometry is not for this page. After reading through the Pythagorean theorem page, I am understanding that Indians were the first to state the theorum and first to give a numerical proof (one that uses specific numbers but in such a way that it can be generalized - not one case as you mentioned). I will change this page to reflect that. If you disagree with wording or timeline please discuss on the Pythagorean theorem page. If I have understood it incorrectly - Indians first to stating theorum and numerical proof - please discuss on this page. --Pranathi 01:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that there is any consensus that Indians were the first to state the theorem. There is strong evidence that it was used as far back as 2000 BC, by the monolith builders in ancient Britain and elsewhere. Indeed, there is a specific example of a solution of a problem involving the pythagorean theorem on a Bablyonian tablet which I believe is circa 1200 BC. Furthermore, "numerical proof" is nonsensical. "Proving" the pythagorean with specific numbers, but in such a way that you could also use other specific numbers and prove it for them, as well, is no proof at all.

I did not at any point imply that the Indian mathematicians were "silly amatuers" or anything of the like. They certainly had many important contributions to mathematics and science.

I have changed the wording to what I hope is an agreeable compromise. As I do not dispute the accuracy of anything written on the pythagorean theorem page, only on this page, I do believe that this is the appropriate place for this discussion. - Grokmoo

The page says Circa 2500 BCE, Megalithic monuments on the British Isles incorporate right triangles with integer sides. B.L. van der Waerden conjectures that these Pythagorean triples were discovered algebraically. I am reading that not as strong evidence but as conjecture by one person. Pythogorean triples were known by many civilizations but not their algebraic nature. To tell you the truth, I am becoming very weary of modern interpretations of mathematical history. If the same monuments were found anywhere other than Europe, there is not much chance anyone would have cared to attribute more knowledge than is directly visible - knowledge of Pythogorean triples.

In any case, the current wording is agreeable. --Pranathi 16:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

It is very interesting to see Westerners not accept the fact that in the ancient world, Eastern civilizations were more advanced than the European civilization. Nobody questions the Eurocentrism in science and technology in the modern times, but it is high time to accept the contribtuions in the ancient world from not just India (which undoubtedly has the maximum contribution to the foundations of mathematics as we know it today), but from other parts of the world, specifically Asian countries, as well, besides Greece and Egypt (which, surprisingly enough, has been given credit despite not being in Europe, perhaps due to its proximity to Europe and the fact that a lot of 'European' ideas were adopted directly from there). While earliest records of trigonometry as a studied discipline exist perhaps from Greece, no doubt exists about the fact that there are much older allusions to geometry and trigonometry in the Vedas and Hindu scriptures dating earlier than 1000 BCE. Moreover, what is found in Greece is only the elements of trigonometry. Trigonometry developed as a well-explored science in India later on, and this is exactly what the text on Indian mathematics implies. Apalaria 19:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)apalaria

If you can, you should try to get a copy of some of Ptolemy's work. If you read the Almagest, you will find a quite complete and comprehensive development of trigonometry. It is certain that many of these ideas were well known to the Greeks well before Ptolemy, but his work is sufficient to place the development of trigonometry at least as early as about 150 CE. Vague references in scripture are not development of mathematics. If you know of even a relatively complete treatment that was written before this time, I would love to see it, but I do not think any such treatise exists. Unless you can prove otherwise, the statement that the Indians developed trigonometry is patently false. Grokmoo 15:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed the reference to trigonometry. However, I do think this Aryabhata should probably be mentioned on this page, but I am not sure where and how, so I'll let someone else decide. Grokmoo 15:06, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that most (a lot, rather) of the works of Indian mathematicians/astronomers/etc. were destroyed in the course of the several invasions that happened. Hence, today there is not enough paper (or whatever) evidence of the original works simply because they no longer exist. It is indeed unfortunate that the works have been destroyed. As for westerners, a very few of them actually even know that science and mathematics ever existed in ancient India. And telling them so usually evokes skepticism. Rohitbd 14:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Vedic mathematics

Propose a name change for the article from Vedic mathematics - to something like Vedic mathematics system by Shri Bharati Krishna Tirtha or Mental calculation system of Vedic mathematics.

- OR -

Change the section title of this article to "Mathematics of/from Vedas" or something like that. --ΜιĿːtalk 08:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I've written a note in the Vedic Mathematics section of this article to inform the reader that the article Vedic mathematics is based on a system developed by Shri Bharati Krishna Tirtha. - Jagged 85, 18/01/2006

Thanks Jagged. Though I think it doesn't help much in absence of some stronger disambig or unless the other article is renamed more descriptively. Because, a user querying for Vedic + Mathematics would always land up on that page - where there are 3 disambig notices already! --ΜιĿːtalk 11:41, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Article structure

Shouldn't this article talk about Indian Mathematics rather than Indian Mathematicians? There should be a List of Indian Mathematicians article covering this material, and Indian mathematics should be about Indian mathematics in general. In short, there are probably too much lists.Borisblue 13:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)