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More disruption involving MMA

User:Agent00f

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Firstly Agent00f (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is using Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability having derailed the last attempt to reach a proposal for an RfC by filibustering in the process driving off one editor he is now using it as his own persoal soap box and forum. See this edit. Mtking 04:52, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

For some background, this is a topic which has seen failure after failure in all previous attempts to be resolved for many months. The blindingly obvious common denominator in every single case are 3 editors: Mtking, TreyGeek, and Hasteur. Together they collude and dominate the discussion to the exclusion of actual contributors/users of the pages in question, then intimidate anyone who dares oppose or even question their methodology. This bred the animosity and untenable situation we find ourselves today: even though there are tens of thousands of users, hundreds of page contributors (dozens of which are were active in the discussion before), and many if not most have left in sheer disgust. None outside of their in-group have any trust or faith in them, and their string of failures are a stain on wikipedia's image. Simply observe Mtking's behavior below toward yet another user they've managed to provoke.

As to the issue at hand, I am not at all blocking their effort to repeat history, but instead only wish to introduce an alternative approach which is open to other participants. They can certainly choose not to participate, and we can move this new effort to another page if need be (several options exist). They of course see this as a threat to their dominion and engage in an active campaign to stop anyone who challenge their monopoly on power. If I just move the call for participation elsewhere, they'll simply retaliate elsewhere, so there's no safe harbor where another approach can at least be attempted. I strongly believe an effort which is not their direct control has at least a moderate chance of success, and the powers at be should consider all the other page contributors' wishes to resolve the matter when all previous attempt with our common denominators have failed miserably. Agent00f (talk) 05:41, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I request that you strike your assertion regarding the collusion and assertion regarding the common denominator. That is an assumption of bad faith on the behalf of editors in good standing with wikipedia whom have been attempting to apply the policy and standards as they exisist today. Long blocks of soapboxing and proposals which are directly contrary to the established policies are not collaberative, but disruptive. Hasteur (talk) 05:46, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I have no reason to strike assertions that are objectively true and supported by empirical evidence. As just one example, in the last failed AN attempt against me, after a round of intimidation Hasteur contacted the select group to provide (obviously biased) supporting statements. Not a single other participant on the talk page was contacted despite his claim of "neutrality". This is recorded in wiki for posterity. Singling out those who are not as well coordinated as them seems to be their modus operandi, as is clearly evident right here.

Also note that Hasteur continues to slam others for "assuming bad faith", when no assumption is necessary given copious empirical evidence. As further evidence of the tight knit nature of this clique, observe that TreyGeek immediately re-reverted when I tried to put back the comments that Mtking blatantly erased from the talk page. This is a consistent and repeated rule rather than the exception. Hasteur doesn't deny that my asserts are true, only feigning righteous indignation and wishing to strike them from the record regardless (and this is far from the first time). Again consistent with the assertion that they expect a monopoly on power. Agent00f (talk) 05:58, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

• Note: Agent00f (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has now gone over the WP:3RR line at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability, I have filed a report at WP:3RR/N.Mtking 07:37, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know this rule exists and I've reverted last change. This action in itself is forum-shopping FORUMSHOP, while a link was provide, they're clearly the same issue and no link was provide back here even though it was created later. Notable given edit warring is more straightforward offense (quick block action).

As more evidence of the persistent lack of ethics noted on this page, Mtking's now trying to cover his/her deletion tactics by posting a specious AN, then offering to withdraw it only if they agree to the wholesale deletion.

User:Mtking and User:Hasteur

Many obvious violations by Mtking:

• The "edit war" AN just above was a consequence of blatant whole revertion/deletion (including unrelated comments) in violation of WP:TALKO editing rules. By sharing 3 reverts between 2 editors who work closely together (simply look at history for evidence), they can successfully flaunted 3RR, leaving the status of any new material in doubt and successful blocking contributions of any one person they choose. General intimidation.

• The collusion between Mtking, Hasteur, and Treygeek to single out, harass, and drive off (esp new) users who do not wish them to dominate the discussion constitutes blatant BITE on all their parts. Using intimidation strategies in turn against people less versed in the long list of rules. This has apparently gone on for months.

• Just one specific case out of many by Hasteur is these "final warning" threats. Clear case of WP:Harassment. When they're brought to attention of broader community, he/she further ratchets up the threat level to force others to immediately apologize "or else". This is recorded at the MMA talk page. This resulted in WP:CANVASING, a very embarrassing ANI on their part, but this obviously continues unabated.

• Flooding of my user talk page by the lot above + Newmanoconnor (who just joined their gang a week ago), another case of #User_space_harassment. They never reply with any specifics when asked for evidence of violation. Seems the strategy is to flood for stuff they can't get away with at AN, and forums shop on anything borderline.

• Blatant ADMINSHOP given that multiple admins have already been involved in this general situation (including previous ANI against me which was closed with no action despite blatant WP:CANVASSING by User:Hasteur) and the common denominator for months in all these problems remains Mtking, Hasteur, and Treygeek.

• This whole AN is done in bad faith, no assumption necessary. The talk page in question has long devolved into the state it's in, and my edit was only to get normative processes back into order by analyzing previous failures and trying to avoid them in the future. Even the former admin was soapboxing. Nothing but desperate last ditch attempt at ADMINSHOP.
• One of the comments on the page above was "closed" completely at odds with closure rules, pretending to be the admin of the place despite having no authoritative power.

• In another blatant violation of ADMIN SHOPPING elsewhere, all 3 have conducted multiple aggressive campaigns of AfD's on entire sets of MMA pages even during collaboration with page's contributors, often voting in concord between themselves. Simply look at their histories, it's nothing but trying to trash MMA related pages and hunt down MMA contributors. They're not always successful, but doesn't stop the "try try again" approach. Even minor successes can break a set of page's cohesion, which is why they keep trying instead of waiting for any kind of resolution. This kind of SHOPPING is clearly an asymmetric "terrorism" against a whole wiki community since it costs them nothing while hugely disrupting others.

Agent00f (talk) 09:28, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Agent00f named me in this subsection and did not notify me. Again, we have the same demonstration of lack of good faith. Hasteur (talk) 15:47, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Hasteur is already subscribed to this, aka already knows this AN exists. Note timestamp on his/her direct reply to me above. BTW, I'm also not going to spam TreyGeek's talk since he also knows this exist. Personally I think spamming someone's page with AN notices when they already know is close to User space harassment. Agent00f (talk) 21:21, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

This list has sat here uncontested for many days. It can only be concluded that any admins who've seen it don't disagree with its claims, yet choose to do nothing about MtKing and Hasteur's behavior regardless. I was blocked by one admin for apparently posting too many claims (ie TLDR: ban, so it's not surprising he/she's yet to reply to any request to explain this odd decision), but no one's addressed these violations above. It's notable that even while this AN section is ongoing, the harassment (Newmanoconnor specifically) on my talk page continues. Agent00f (talk) 08:23, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Lack of comments does not mean your accusations are uncontested or that anyone agrees with them. You have provided no evidence to back your accusations against any of these editors and your attempt on this page to manufacture consensus from a lack of comments makes it look like you, not they, are the problem. Edward321 (talk) 13:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

The evidence is linked above where convenient, often by Mtking himself. Some are simply self-explanatory like the aggregate history of two users. The talk page where some of it resides is a mess, but note that none of the many users from there familiar with the intimate details deny any of this occurred. In every case below where someone asked for specifics, I've provided it to their satisfaction. Please be specific about your own personal curiosities.

As for consensus, I've simply listed the facts of the case, and it's up to others (not me) to use their own reasoning facilities. Note that Treygeek below has vetted the list for factual accuracy and it's been properly amended. Agent00f (talk) 11:17, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

So far you have a list, but no differences that back it up. You opinion is not evidence. Edward321 (talk) 13:17, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Can you describe what constitutes evidence for you? Or opinion for that matter? For example, is Mtking's own link to the edit that he wholesale deleted evidence or opinion? Agent00f (talk) 14:44, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

User:Portillo

Secondly Portillo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is continuing to attack other editors, see this, this and this. Mtking 04:52, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

This is simply more WP:Harassment by MtKing. Targets pages someone's involved with for deletion (since no sanctions for excessive AfDs, even failed ones), and when they lash back, tries to drive them out. Just look at Mtking's history, it's purely destructive, and it's daily routine. Agent00f (talk) 11:41, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

The behavior of these editors has been incredibly disruptive and confusing. Interesting how UFC articles were doing perfectly fine for years, enjoyed by thousands of visitors. Until someone suddenly noticed that UFC events are against Misplaced Pages policy. Took a while to figure that out. Portillo (talk) 12:53, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

• There is not now, nor has ever been, a defense to violations of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines consisting of "It's been up for years and no one noticed before now that they were in violation." Quite aside from that standards change, and that handwaving was done in the cowboy days that don't pass muster now, there is no statute of limitations here.

  That being said, those links were unacceptable personal attacks in violation of WP:NPA, pure and simple, and it is curious that someone who has been on Misplaced Pages as long as you have might not understand that. Strange though it might appear to some that an editor could think so without some unwholesome bias, it is quite possible to believe that a particular type of article fails to pass notability muster (and, indeed, continue to hold it) without having a "personal agenda" or being on a "witch hunt." Ravenswing 04:51, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

• I believe the perfectly coherent defense is the 5th and last pillar of wiki: it is not a bureaucracy. This means that while following rules are convenient for daily operations, rules are not the defining characteristic. The MMA event articles are not some flash by night operation. They've used and appreciated by countless users. They also exist as a coherent and cohesive where it's worth as a whole is significantly diminished with deletion of each election. Without a consistent solution in hand, it's simply reckless (not bold) to allow individual hit-and-run AfDs to ruin a useful resource. Help the topic's long term contributors make it right, instead of capitulating to destructive editor with no stake in the outcome. I hope that someone who has been on Misplaced Pages as long as you have could understand this. Agent00f (talk) 09:18, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

• Funny that, but a consistent solution is at hand: the omnibus yearly articles. (It's not that employing them is an "inconsistent" solution, of course; it's that you don't like them.) That being said, I note that you are perfectly willing to cite rules and policies when they suit your purpose to do so, and this strikes me as another area where you argue policy when you believe it favors your stance, and that policy should be ignored when you believe it doesn't. Moreover, what I note you do not attempt to rebut are your unacceptable personal attacks ... unless you believe that falls under IAR as well.

  That being said, there's a .sig I use on VBulletin-based boards which applies: "It's not that I don't understand your position. It's that I don't agree with your position." Ravenswing 02:08, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

• Their design is incoherent, user unfriendly, and aesthetically terrible. I've gone over the details at length on the omnibus, but I see that you've managed to understand the specifics even without knowing anything about the subject. More importantly, because of this, nobody in the actual audience for the rules and pages likes them in any way. You can of course "disagree", but unfortunately factual reality isn't very considerate about this type of opinion. Agent00f (talk) 08:30, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
• BTW, you seem to be accusing me of hypocrisy. Please cite some evidence of this, or at least let me now if asking for citation is against wiki policy since these types of requests never seem to get fulfilled. If it's simply your "opinion", not meant to reflect factual reality, please note that in the statement to avoid confusion, thanks. Also, the only reason the sections above were written is because it's unfortunate reality that that idiotic AN's often get results. Not my rule, but we're in a place where it happens nonetheless. Agent00f (talk) 10:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Prayer for relief

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As an editor who has been around and around the bush with the various SPAs that show up, disrupt all forward momentum on developing a workable solution to the MMA article space and then vanish in the night to leave the crew of regulars to do their best to demonstrate good faith by addressing the points raised by the SPAs, I with to enter a plea for relief. I request an uninvolved administrator (or multiple administrators) to start calling out (and sanctioning) the violations of community policy on all participants in the debate (yes, I open myself up to the calling out). The only way forward is to demonstrate to the externally canvassed (as has been demonstrated multiple times) editors that violations of community policy and standards will no longer be tolerated in the space. Hasteur (talk) 05:43, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

The regulars who don't support this small clique's monopoly over the agenda have long left in disgust. Admin involvement to sanction any remaining dissent from their agenda will only further antagonize a poisonous situation. In the broader picture, it's the MMA page contributors who have to live with the consequences of the group's polarizing choices. They have little interest in the actual subject as evidenced by their terrible design for "omnibus pages" (which they stealth-implemented to the protestations of everyone else), and this means the rest of us will be saddled with the a burden they have no real stake in. This is not only demotivating to the masses but breeds contempt and grounds for future conflict, which is exactly we are trying to avoid. My alternative proposal is simply that those from the sporting community get a chance to create a plan consistent with both wiki rules and also the stakeholders in this case. We can do this among ourselves without issue if only those who consider themselves an executive elite stop actively sabotaging any efforts they can't directly control and manipulate. For a renewed effort to settle this matter, I've spend considerable time developing a process which would prevent take-overs by single parties in decision-making in the hopes that everyone gets a voice. This is a obviously a threat to them, and why they're trying to block me in a panic.

As to the technical specifics of the matter, most of us want brightline tests for MMA notability, and some level of protection for coherent sets of well formatted/presented and cleanly linked event pages as long as they can fit a minimal template standard. The first issue is obvious. A brightline test would provide clear precedence of what's acceptable. Recall this is the same group that's been actively AfD'ing subject pages at random, even during the "collaborative" process demonstrating bad faith, to gain leverage. A consistent test would sap the power of this tool in the future, so it's against their interests and not an option they'd consider at all. On the second issue, the MMA wiki community has for years used a consistent and well-established format to chain together cohesive sets of events whose value in sum are greater than their parts. Breaking these chains inflict damage well beyond the individual entries and thus why they're the choice of target for this AfD group to gain leverage. We're complete open to more stringent requirements (ie template) to establish brightline tests, but not unexpectedly this minority also won't table this.

What's been even more frustrating is that these features were presented as appendages to the clique's existing plan (in something of 80-20 split in their favor), and they willfull ignored any mention it. Such is the nature of their attitude of complete domination. Rather than let anyone else present their ideas, this small group has intentionally driven off collaborators. No matter how you look at it, the common denominator of the string of previous failures is still them. Agent00f (talk) 07:00, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Agent00f, can you link the specific edit where you made a proposal for possible guidelines on the notability of MMA events? I'm sorry, I haven't seen it. I've seen walls of text, much like this one, that don't seem to go anywhere, in my opinion. It is difficult to comment or discuss a proposal that I haven't seen clearly. --TreyGeek (talk) 13:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Simply search for "I took a look at the legalistic situation a bit more in depth" on the omnibus page. Note that it's bulleted to be easy to see and read. It was of course ignored by the clique.

More importantly, I believe the approach that you and Mtking took when writing your proposal is already poisoned. The broader community was never consulted, so they have zero incentive to buy in except to capitulate to the constant intimidation and harassment. This is why I proposed a new start with the MMA base onboard from the start. The can choose your plan, or they can choose something else, but they're not forced either way, esp by admin pressure. If it needs to be revised to meet wiki boundaries, so be it, that's their responsibility. It's not your right to take that away from everyone else.

I've started writing this when Mtking immediately saw it as a threat and started this AN. My first post in a line to be posted over time was wholesale deleted. You know what got deleted given you were part of the 3RR. Agent00f (talk) 21:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I had hoped you would provide an actual link so we could be sure that we are discussing the same thing. I am going to assume you are referring to this edit. If this assumption is correct, the reason I didn't respond is that I didn't understand it. I cannot tell what you want WP:MMAEVENT to read or how it is related to existing Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, if at all. --TreyGeek (talk) 23:25, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

• I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about it? Users want something with a given structure. The rules should be written to accommodate this, not the other way around. Maybe it's due to your background, but these are not physically or mathematically defined impermeable constructs to assemble towards an end. They're guidelines which can be simply created out of thin air as long as they're reasonably consistent to the general spirit of wiki. If you don't feel MMAEVENT can be stretched to accomodate, then it doesn't even need to enter into this. Agent00f (talk) 11:34, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

This seem like blatant ADMIN SHOPPING, esp when factoring in "multiple administrators". Multiple admins have already been involved in this situation (including previous ANI against me which was closed with no action despite blatant CANVASING by Hasteur) and common denominator in all these problems remains the 3 named above. Also, calling out "SPA's" with every breath, who are often the only people left to oppose them, is directly in violation of BITING. Rotating between them to throw the rulebook at newbies to intimidate them also seems like BITEing. Agent00f (talk) 09:07, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:SPADE says that if you see a SPA acting like a SPA you should call them a SPA. Tagging them as SPAs only allows other editors who aren't as quick on the uptake to see if the actions do warrant further response. Please strike your assertions of canvassing. No action was taken during the last ANI where you believe I canvassed therefore you should WP:DROP the claim. Hasteur (talk) 15:51, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Again, WP:BITEing with rulebook. Below are the CANVASING links. These are the only people to comment against me on the ANI directly after. These are the named people (Newmanoconnor is newest member and thus not part of the "common denominator", but he's already been WP:Harrassing me in turn with Hasteur right I joined), plus the admin who strongly endorses MtKing + TreyGeek plan (his own words). They are a solid votingblock. The ANI didn't go anywhere, esp after posting these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Mtking#FYI:_Agent00f

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Newmanoconnor#FYI:_Agent00f

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:TreyGeek#FYI:_Agent00f

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Dennis_Brown#FYI:_Agent00f

I have no intention of retracting a 100% factual statement. Agent00f (talk) 21:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of "SPA"s, one quick look through all these user's histories clearly indicate that all 3 of them basically try to delete or otherwise disrupt MMA articles for a living. Includes many trips to AN's and votingblock at AfD's. Fortunately there's no wiki rule WP:HYPOCRISY or we wouldn't all be entertained by this ridiculous forum shopping right now. Agent00f (talk) 10:12, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I again ask you to strike the above mentioned assertion. I am not a Single Purpose account. I do not edit exclusively MMA based topics. My edit history very clearly shows a focus on Hell's Kitchen (U.S.) based articles, but no singular purpose in any editing. You on the other hand have exclusively edited the talk page for WP:MMANOT, your talk page, and this noticeboard. Your actions are a textbook definition of a single purpose account. Hasteur (talk) 15:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

This is the list of the last 500 edits, the vast majority involves destructive tendencies against MMA material/users. Also, you don't "edit exclusively MMA based topics" since you don't edit anything in them at all. Agent00f (talk) 21:57, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Agent00f - statements that people are trying to delete articles "for a living" (implying paid editing) or calling edits "terrorism" are very serious personal attacks and if continued would warrant admin action under WP:NPA. They do not help to reach resolutions of the dispute.Nigel Ish (talk) 16:03, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

"for a living" is a figure of speech. If you look through history, the vast majority of their actions are destruction against MMA material. Asymmetric "terrorism" is much more literal. The idea of terrorism is low-cost strikes (which AfD's are, they cost nothing) against higher value targets (which articles in a coherent set are, take out one and the sum suffers). It is also a tool of threat/fear. Note that these AfD's are being fired even during the "consensus" process, implying that they will stop so long as we agree to their plan. This is not unlike bringing guns to arms reduction talks and randomly shooting at people until the other side capitulates. It doesn't always have to hit, but occasionally hitting helps. We literally have no recourse against this other than capitulating. The clique has no material to AfD, so it is by definition asymmetric. These are direct factual statements and abstract reasoning and thus need no retraction. Agent00f (talk) 21:49, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Facts of the case

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In good faith I'll have to hold off on posting any "soapboxing" on the MMA talk page until this is resolved. So instead of working further on rules for proposals and proposals, I'll write some background to the case, valuable to any decision. Good decisions are based on factual knowledge.

These are mostly for any intervening admin (which I think should intervene). They are empirical observations, assuming good faith in all cases (and no value judgments to minimize bias). They are my direct experience after 1 week (and reading the history):

1. The current MMA omnibus "design" is the product of Mtking and Treygeek. An admin verified this. Mtking knows nothing about the subject, and Treygeek claims to but he's never really demonstrated it anywhere other than improving an event page with some generic prose. He also claimed this took him a significant investment over a whole week, so I guess he works slow.

2. The design they've come up with is both visual atrocious (mismatched sidebars, etc) and obscenely long (already hard to navigate even though only 1/2 complete). Not to mention completely irrational for a non-seasonal sport (which is not sorted by calendar year), and potentially inconsistent in presentation between different organization. This can only be because someone's incompetent or willfully incompetent. We are told to assume good faith, so logically that leaves the former, and it would make sense given 1. Regardless, this doesn't bode well for MMA on wiki in the long term. Because this was already stealth-implemented for one sporting org (the biggest), it's now inconsistent with everything else. This means the work falls on "the regulars" to do the rest of work implementing something they strongly dislike (a fact noted again and again). Rule-enforcing bad design on a volunteer community drives away both contributors and readers, ruins morale, and lowers the quality of everything. This is simply a fact of human nature.

3. Furthermore, despite the process going on for months, it's still incomplete and not ready for RfC. This work is something a competent person can figure out in a weekend, maybe two if they didn't have much wiki domain knowledge. Their excuse is that MMA fans have been obstructing them, but that makes no sense since work done in your own time can be completed regardless of what others do. Their plan eventually came to incorporate some suggested improvements from others, but still none of those contributors are supporting it now.

4. The editing histories of these two + Hasteur (which constitutes their votingblock on anything mma related) shows that they're all ardent deletionists. The histories for Mtking and Hasteur for many months is almost exclusively hunting down mma pages to AfD, plus the ensuing drama. This doesn't suggest they enjoy the sport to say the least. On the other, the Agent00f is clearly thus far mostly an SPA except some kinect material previously. The follow is not citable given privacy concerns so it's "trust me", but it's factually basic: I'm a sometimes MMA fan, and joined the fray because I saw some weirdness in the pages, and found what was going on. It seemed fundamentally unethical at the time so I wrote my two cents, but got trolled in by the clear BS and "warnings" I got in reply. I also know I'm somewhat motivated by anger that gradually built over the week over this as these facts surfaced. Now I would feel I would betray my own sense of ethics if I let this lie. This is simply what happened based on my own recollection of feelings.

5. Let's be honest, we all know that Wiki's rules can be game-theoried by a clique over less organized individuals. From votingblocks to avoiding the appearance of conflict of interest, or round-robin around 3RR (noted in section above), there are many moral hazards here that can encourage a small cohesive group to work together against singular targets. Their histories suggest they stick together on the topic, and never go against anyone in the group. I suppose assuming good faith that can be attributed to sheer coincidence. However game theory is math, and not an assumption.

6. One of Hasteur and Mtking's most notable attributes is unsubstantial replies. If you look at their histories, they rarely post more than a couple lines, often littered with WP: tags instead of actual english. I've found better contributors think moderately deep thoughts, that's just a fact. This is strange given that one of their favorite excuses for deletionism is unsubstantial content, or no prose. This is at least hypocritical as a matter of pure logic. Note this does not apply to Treygeek.

7. Speaking of excuses for AfD, another is lack of sources. But that's also ironic because these two often make frivolous accusations which they don't substantiate, which leads to:

8. Another attributes of all 3 is selective replies. There's apparently no Wiki rule for ignoring people, so they usually just ignore any comment or reply where there's no trite WP tag to counterpoint. This tends to frustrate those who are the exact opposite in substantive replies, so when those call them out, they flaunt WP:GOODFAITH and WP:CIVILITY. This is very evident in the whole MMA omnibus thread and it's clearly gaming the system as matter of game theory.

9. To be fair, one of Agent00f's attributes is being too verbose, and centering everything on reasoning/logic instead of human feelings. Based on personal observation, it's a character flaw.

10. Mtking and Hasteur often accuse others first of things they're guilty themselves for. This can be seen by the harassment on my talk page and the AN itself. In the abstract this is a psychological strategy but let's assume good faith so they just do it by accident. The effect it has is still real, though, like this AN. Point 8 above is a good example, too. They're simply very proactive about striking out first at everyone else as an empirical observation.

Agent00f (talk) 23:05, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Fact - most of the above "facts" are purely opinion. But hey, why cloud the issue with actual facts supported by evidence? Ravensfire (talk) 23:13, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Not they clearly are not. An "observation" is just that: something you see clearly, like a bottle on table. A bottle on a table is not a matter of opinion. If you need something cited, please point to it specifically and I will oblige. But as a matter of basic fairness you also must oblige to acknowledge in reply that it's observable fact. I didn't cite everything as a time consideration, because the MMA talk page is a mess of a revision history. Please do not think I don't have a very technical background where discerning the difference is critical. Agent00f (talk) 23:22, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

And yet clearly, they are just your opinion about the matter. BTW - I totally love how you denigrate editors by labeling them. Hmm, how about calling you and those who support you rapid MMA fanboys? So we can have the AFD deletionists vs the fanboys. Hmm, suddenly labels aren't that attractive, are they? Ah, but you'll say, they are AFD deletionists! It's a fact (in my opinion...)! Ah, but others can point out, you are just an MMA fanboy! It's a fact (in their opinion)! And all of the vitriol, hostility and gamemanship you show on the MMA talk page does nothing to help the matter. Except, of course, chase several admins away that were trying to help. What's odd is you've not made a single edit to an MMA article. You do realize that the ultimate way to pull something out of the omnibus is to put the details that would show to anyone that it deserves it's own article. Good grief - UFC 145 probably could be split off without too much work, but that isn't being done. Think about it ... Ravensfire (talk) 23:28, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

1. I am not bother if someone calls another a rabid MMA fanboy if they provide a proper definition, just like a bottle on a table is predicated on a definition of "on". Both are observable. Please provide a definition for you statement I'll be happy to accept the label since it changes nothing but the letters. Observable facts are largely linguistically context-free.
2. Also, the admin left of his own free volition. This is a fact as evidenced by his own statement.
3. Since you seem to expect substance from me, it's only fair you provide similar substance in reply. Please substantiate your claims clear as I've done mine.
4. Later I'm working on a set of interpretations based on external reasoning (ie knowledge from outside instead of simple observations) from these facts. This should make the difference abundantly clear. Note in the vernacular, "opinions" is not well defined, so please be much more specific so that we're on the same page.
5. Finally, a slight correction: these are not just facts, but also math as explained within the writing. For example, hypocrisy as formally defined is axiomatic, and easy to deduct. If you have disputes with any of the math, please point out which and we can either go through a thought experiment or the formally deduction. Agent00f (talk) 23:59, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

For #1, can you link to an edit where I claimed to spend a week "full-time" working on UFC 140? If I did make such a claim it was in error, however, I doubt I said that. I spent a week researching the event so that I could write the prose and have it sourced as well as I could. If that is bad, I apologize, I was doing the best I could with the time I had available to me. I would love to see you bring an MMA event article up to the same standards or to a higher standard.

• I believe you claimed that you did this during an no-work week, and you wouldn't be able to resume this kind of commitment afterward, which would imply it was a sizable investment. I commend your commitment. Since we seem to more or less agree on the basics, I'll just reword it. If you wish to specify X hours out of 40 let me know, but I don't think that's necessary.

For #2, the original version of the article lacked the sidebars and raw event results. These other features were added afterwards in order to attempt to work with others interested in the MMA article space. For you to blame the current format of the article exclusively on me and/or Mtking is misplaced blame.

• This plan was specified by Dennis the admin as the result of you and Mtking's work. However, given that none of the those others you speak of want anything to do with it anymore, I think calling it you and Mtking's plan is fairly accurate. I will however amend 3 because not all elements of the design are yours.

For #3... you may not have intended it to be. However, it appears to be a personal attack against any and everyone who has participated in the discussions at WT:MMANOT because you are claiming we are incompetent since the discussion has lasted as long as it has.... thanks.

• This is a bad interpretation of a plain fact. The incompetence is displayed in a plan that no one liked. Had competent work been done in the first place, then the process wouldn't have taken months because people wouldn't have objected so severely. However I sympathize with your distaste for bureaucracy. I'm wasting time here much better spent coming up with proposals a superior plan which everyone except you 3 would like. In fact you and Mtking gaming of the system (wholesale deletion and then 3rr, remember that?) is blocking proposals from being tabled. Bureaucracy often means incompetence blocking ideas that aren't institutional. Such is life.

For #7 "they often make frivolous accusations" (particularly for the "frivolous accusations" I have made).

• It probably wasn't unambiguous that 7 follows from 6, where you are not named. I've clarified it. I hope this doesn't imply that you've internalized the clique. ;) If you want citations for them, simply read the flood of their spam/harassment on my talk page. There is of course much more in the talk page (WP:WARNINGS at every turn), and you should be aware of it from your history on this case.

For #8 I historically don't respond to comments, questions, etc that I do not understand. Also, I try not to immediately respond to talk pages (though I am not always successful) and in discussion that have rapid comments from multiple people it can be easy to miss something to respond to.

• I don't know what you're talking about, please clarify. This is one example of a good reply to a confusing comment instead of ignoring it.

For #10 I stand by the vast majority of my edits and actions on Misplaced Pages. If administrators and/or the larger Misplaced Pages community feels that I have been in error I fully expect them to let me know up to and including talk page warnings, blocks of editing privileges and/or topic bans.

• I apologize I didn't exclude you from this point, that was clearly an error and I've fixed it. You're actually a quite honest person and don't indulge in this like your colleagues.

For the points that I did not address, I don't understand why you bring them up aside from possibly blowing off steam. I had hoped that both in the original WT:MMANOT discussions and my attempts to renew the discussion that everyone could try to work together. Unfortunately, it seems those efforts are failing and I'm not sure why aside from the possibility that my involvement inherently negatively polarizes the situation. Now I must run, UFC on Fox is about to start. --TreyGeek (talk) 23:54, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

• The facts listed here are a large part of the reason why people are very reluctant to work with the 3 amigos, and frankly despise them even if they're not allowed to express it. I've noted above that background facts are important to making decision, like for example this AN. That's why they're placed as a primer for the admin who might not be familiar with the situation otherwise.

Replied Agent00f (talk) 11:11, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Interpretations of the Situation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is based on my own value judgement and external logic (ie uses things not inherent in the observation). It's separated from the above because it is not 100% provably true.

1. It seems what happened is that when the group above was warring against mma pages, a few mma fans took matters into their own hands. This had a unfortunate polarizing effect on wiki administration whereby the latter became the "bad guys" as an aggregate, and the former by extension and axiomatic symmetry the good guys. This gave the former considerable more leeway when gaming the system. There is extensive psych research for this if citation is necessary.

2. Allowing a small disinterested clique to systematically ruin a whole functional community on wiki is a stain on the wiki reputation, even if it's by accident. By doing nothing to dissuade (ie allowing) gaming of the system, it paints a picture that the org is more about the letter of the law than the spirit. It defines the site as a bureaucratic nightmare instead of good judgement. This is fundamentally discouraging to smart and creative contributors which is what any site needs.

3. As a matter of good judgement, there are two issues to consider here: the good of the few against the many, and legal consistency. The former is obvious, but the later often encourages enforcing the letter of the law if only to minimize exceptions. However, in that case we also have to consider that allowing the precedent that a few people can game the site rules for months without punishment.

4. This seems a clear case where a few (again, perhaps only by circumstance) took over the reigns of power by abusing the common rules. In a way it's the wort kind of takeover since they've gotten to make substantial decisions even though they have no stake in the longer term outcome. This is very akin to predatory takeover or private equity business in equivalent function, which are very well documented cases. In all these circumstances, demoralization at the lower ranks and moral hazards abound. Given this has already happened, the question is how to resolve it: silence the whistle-blowers, turn a blind eye, solve the problem by closing loopholes, or solve the problem by sanctioning people've taken advantage of them (even if they only happen upon it). The decision is an easy one to make, and it's certainly not mine to make, but the necessary info to do it was presented.

Agent00f (talk) 11:17, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Call for sanctions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Administrators Surely this 3 ring circus has gone on long enough. The thread a few days ago coupled with these 2 threads should illuminate beyond any shadow of a doubt the disruptive actions of Agent00f who will filibuster, claim bureaucratic abuse, claim anything in the book just to slow down the process of building consensus regarding the MMA articles.

I do acknowledge that my own actions in response to Agent00f have been less than exemplary, however I challenge you to find any other editor who has dealt with the same intensity and duration of abuse of community guidelines as we (MtKing, TreyGeek, and myself) have and still maintain the same level of composure.

I call for an indefinite block on Agent00f on grounds of deliberate disruption, lack of Assuming Good Faith, Personal Attacks, and deliberate obfuscation after being warned repeatedly being asked to strike assumptions of bad faith and to discontinue their disruptive behavior.

My name is Hasteur and I endorse this set of proposed sanctions. Hasteur (talk) 23:50, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

This is so much admin shopping just like the last ANI it's not even funny. First, thorough explanations are not "Obfuscation". Some things in the world are just complicated. Second, sometimes facts can reflect badly, but that's no a function of facts, but interpretation. Just like a bottle on the table that you were supposed to put away can reflect badly on one's sense of responsibility. I suppose it's possible of all who sees this one will oblige and you'll get your way in complete violation of the shopping rule. Agent00f (talk) 00:04, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose The user in question has a perfectly clean block log. Calling for an indefinite block at this point is inappropriate and easily seen as pointy. Please follow proper procedures and an escalating block system. Calling for this right away seems like an attempt to remove an opponent in a dispute, even if that isn't what it is meant as. Silverseren 08:41, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Ok, I have striked my request for an indef block, however I point to the below created section, their blocking by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, and their WP:NOTTHEM groundwork laying on their talk page in response to their block. While I prefer to see the good things in editors, I suspect that no change in behavior will result from the preventative measure that was taken. Hasteur (talk) 13:16, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Reflections on the Ridiculousness of this AN

1. It was clearly created in ridiculously bad faith. Mtking wholesale deletes a new comment, which is a direct violation of WP:TALKO's editing rule and then has the nerve to FORUMSHOP and ADMINSHOP by creating this AN over his own violation.
2. When I tried to revert back this blatant disregard for wiki rules, Mtking and Treygeek team up to run around 3RR together, and Mtking creates yet another AN to FORUMSHOP/ADMINSHOP against me so that his blatant disregard for policy can't stopped.
3. When that didn't get anywhere, Mtking instead attempts subterfuge to make sure the comment is never seen.

This AN is basically an attempt to hid one comment by either keeping it deleted or blocking the user who created it. It's nothing bad faith to the Nth degree.

Frankly Mtking's actions here an insult to the intelligence of admins by assuming they're can't see through these flagrant attempts at flaunting wiki standards of conduct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agent00f (talk • contribs) 12:04, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Comment I think I said it once before, vape the whole project. Failing that, just indef topic ban them all, then maybe this won't come up every week. Blackmane (talk) 00:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Support Blackmane's solution. Delete all MMA articles, SALT them, blacklist the acronym MMA ... guys can't play well with others - we get DAILY edit-wars, ANI filings, AFD's, PROD's, CSD's ... what a load of crap. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 00:16, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• How about you guys go create a MMA wiki on Wikia? Then you can all fight with each other and we don't have to read about it. --Laser brain (talk) 00:57, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
• Hear hear. Swear to heaven, this is a pretty basic situation:

  1) Some editors attempt to apply certain policies and guidelines to a series of articles, such as WP:ROUTINE, WP:IRS, WP:NSPORT, WP:CRYSTAL and the like.

  2) A handful of contrarians, whose arguments tend to rest on illegitimate grounds such as WP:ILIKEIT and WP:ITSUSEFUL, spam some bulletin boards with oft-obscene exhortations to "take the mofos down," whereupon the effort is flooded by wave after wave of SPAs, sockpuppets and meatpuppets, for whom civility and NPA rules are sick jokes.

  3) Although quite literally dozens of these sock/meatpuppets are indef blocked, for some astonishing reason, a number of parties are taking their filibustering seriously, and this organized, canvassed disruption is allowed to persist.

  These people do not care about Misplaced Pages. They don't care about our policies, our guidelines, our customs and our rules. They don't merely admit that they're bent on disrupting anyone who attempts to thwart their use of Misplaced Pages as a webhost for their information, they boast about it. Why in the hell are we letting them do it, and why would we want thereby to admit to the world that a well-enough organized pressure group can succeed in overwhelming policies and guidelines to impose their will? Ravenswing 01:35, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• " well-enough organized pressure group can succeed in overwhelming policies"
• The problem has rather been the opposite. The existance of many motivated but unorganized "SPA's" (mainly wiki contributors and users) vs an smaller entrench wiki "elite" (observations which no one disagrees with, given that it's your own statement) is by definition a demonstrate that a "well-enough organized pressure group can succeed in overwhelming policies" against a majority of actual users/stakeholder. Committee decisions reached via uninformed opinions, by people who don't understand the situation, against the interests of the afflicted userbase is the main reason why we're still here after many months. It's notable that ALL of the dozens of regular MMA contributors/stakeholders who were part of the process at the start have left or been pushed out. Please think about this per your recommendation above. Agent00f (talk) 08:33, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Conditionally Support Blackmane's solution. However, the parties targeted are the wrong ones. According to reality thishas been a war between a very few but active AfD enthusiasts and the rest of the community who contribute/read material on wiki. The former are the only ones who've been here since the start of this destructive ordeal and they've had their second chance about 5 chances ago. Everyone else has left, often in disgust. Of course those left get to point the finger. Can someone please provide a brightline rule of how many opportunities before the wiki powers that be says enough with epic failure? Agent00f (talk) 08:55, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

• I'd partially meant my comment to be facetious albeit with a very substantial portion of seriousness. The MMA project is becoming the very definition of a walled garden. This is the last thing an open project needs. This is Misplaced Pages not fricking Fanboypedia. And purely for my own benefit, how does one go about vaping an entire project? If this rather drastic idea gains traction, it might be worth putting it up for proper community consideration Blackmane (talk) 10:33, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

My guess is that this is going to require an arbcom case placing discretionary sanctions of the sort that exist in the Balkans articles, i.e. disruption by SPAs and IPs can be immediately vaped (blocked) by a patrolling admin. The MMA fanboys will never want to play on their own Wiki because it will never get the traffic that Misplaced Pages does. When you combine hundreds of meatpuppets with not only ignorance of rules but an outright refusal to believe that rules apply to them, you get this mess. We can't feasibly remove all MMA from the encyclopedia, but we can block all of this ridiculousness on sight. Chillllls (talk) 13:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Hard to say whether Arbcom would take this case on without the full gamut of dispute resolution cards being played, but given the sheer scale of disruption that the MMA fanboys are causing I don't think there would be much option. However, that doesn't really solve the problem, it merely enhances the administrative workload because the fanboys will not give up. The best option may still come down to nuking the project from orbit. A RFC may be the next thing to consider on this. Blackmane (talk) 14:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll be tarred by both sides for saying this, but 80% of the MMA content is not a problem. It's only the hyper motivated enthusiast crowd that is causing a problem. Heck, up to when some editors came on the scene we were nearly ready to get the blue ribbon RfC moving along so that we could finish the debate about how to protect the smaller articles that are already here and how to ensure that MMA is covered reasonably. It was suggested previously that the way to get a discretionary sanctions like regime passed would be to go for General Sanctions at WP:AN. I've personally been holding back from using this route because I've wanted to demonstrate good faith above and beyond a WikiSaint so that claims of being biased against MMA topics can be deflected by the aforementioned good faith. Hasteur (talk) 19:48, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

What is expected of this ever snowballing ANI?

Exactly what is expected to be achieved here? This started off as Mtking+Hasteur vs Agent00f and it's basically blown up into something about MMA as a whole. Would the suggestion of an IBAN between Hastuer and Agent00f as well as a topic ban for Agent00f' be off the scale? I've generally not been involved with the whole fiasco that is WP:MMA except for a few comments on, yet another, MMA related ANI I made some months back and when yet another MMA fanboy, BigzMMA, was hauled through ANI. I've seen and read through a number of AfDs on MMA related articles and would generally have voted delete on many of them, but decided against involving myself in that swamp. I give Treygeek and the other AFD regulars an enormous amount of credit for maintaining their sanity in the face of the some of the crap they've been through. Blackmane (talk) 11:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

If you haven't noted yet, the prior attempts at resolving this problem only seem to have a few common denominators. Basic logic would dictate that repeating the same wouldn't generate novel results. However, your interpretation of the same info yields the opinion that the solution rather involves nuking everyone else outside the common denominator of previous failures. This isn't necessarily a terrible plan outside of its basic destructiveness, but do note that it's those outside that circle who will be saddled with the resulting rules/plans. In comparison, nuking the whole subject (including all contributors) seems much more consistent with the that general scheme. Agent00f (talk) 08:51, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

• cough* Notification *cough* You make a suggestion of an IBAN between me and Agent00f, then give credit for "the crap they've been through". Inconsistent much? This entire thread has transformed from it's initial purpose of Agent00f screaming harassment that Mtking and I were perpetrating against him, into a request for undissolveduninvolved admins to start policing the community guidelines (which still has yet to occur), to a examination of how Agent00f has conducted themselves, to a ill planned request for an indefinite block (which I have since retracted), to a further look at how to improve the MMA article space. I will admit to being somewhat uncivil in some of my communication with Agent00f, but I contest the need of an IBAN as I have not been warned once regarding my interaction. Hasteur (talk) 11:57, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd drop a notice on Agent00f's talk page about this sub-thread but I don't think any posting from me at this time would be well received at all. Hasteur (talk) 12:14, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Just don't screw up the formatting or you'll get barked at. Ravensfire (talk) 12:16, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Hence why I asked the question whether my suggestion is off the scale. I bolded it to make it stand out not to make it a formal proposal. I'm more than happy to strike it out if you have issue with it. My preference would be to have at least something come out of this extended discussion and a rather extreme suggestion was hopefully going to push for a compromising position from others. A rather large amount of time and discussion has gone into this and to have it closed merely as "no admin action required" is, to my mind at least, nonsensical. Blackmane (talk) 14:52, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I will agree that admin action (or involvement) is required, but jumping to the level of IBAN is unwarranted. It's been my understanding that interaction bans are for when there is mutual persistent incompatibility with both editors or one going and harassing another. While I don't think we're at that level, I think an uninvolved experienced editor taking Agent00f as a mentoree would be the best way to modify the issues that have been identified while at the same time allowing Agent00f to to continue contributing to the community. I'm staying away from other/further recommendations as I precieve myself to be already very involved with Agent00f's behavior. Hasteur (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

"unwarranted"??? How many kb is this thread? Clearly that word cannot be used here (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:26, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

"Unwarranted!" There, I used it.

(ahem) I'd say this has gone beyond the scope of ANI at this point. And I personally feel IBANs are useless, as they're far too easy to game around. The whole MMA issue needs to go to ArbCom. — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:17, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Addressing the comment that the only people opposing the MMA articles are a small clique of 3 deletionists: I oppose many of them also, and support the consolidation proposal. So do some others, but they can be seem on the discussions--I don't want to bring them to this mess involutarily. DGG ( talk ) 19:51, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

In like fashion, I oppose many of them, support the portmanteau articles, and spit contemptuously on the premise that failure to give every show of every fed its own article equates to wanting to eliminate MMA from Misplaced Pages. (Of course, if there were twenty experienced editors all over these articles, no doubt the disruptors would come up with some other Conspiracy To Get Us line of reasoning.) Ravenswing 03:36, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Endorse the sane and balanced comments of DGG (goes without saying; no deletionist he) and of Ravenswing as well. --Orange Mike | Talk 02:13, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

• Please keep an eye Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability ,a little progress, but more recently more of the same..Newmanoconnor (talk) 00:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• I've read through (and am still reading through) the MMANOT talk page and frankly I'm appalled. The discussion that started there was moving forwards with contributions from a number of editors but has since been bogged down in a morass of circular discussions by Agentoof. I'm going to bite the bullet and take the hits that come. I'm going to formally propose a topic ban for Agent00f for sustained disruption at the WT:MMANOT. While I grant that it is constructive to have points debated and holes looked over and patched but not to the point that it becomes badgering. If anyone disagrees, I'd be happy to take multiple servings of seafoodBlackmane (talk) 09:09, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• Is this some kind of joke? Did you notice that I was just about the only one to bring up domain-specific Rfc-related points (~10 in total) to a domain-specific RfC in a flood of generic comments that don't even mention details? Or that the "circular discussions" is only one user repeating the same thing over and over again in the most obnoxious way possible while dodging a simple question? With a ready group of indignant editors ready to jump on their cross at the slightest perceived slights to start shopping, it's no wonder there are no regular subject contributors left in this discussion. Would you want to put up with this? Agent00f (talk) 09:28, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• I quite doubt that anyone is laughing; certainly I'm not, after looking over that talk page myself. Indeed - after filtering out many personal attacks, broad attacks and irrelevancies - you asked a number of questions. Where pertinent, by and large they were answered. That you might not like the answers is another matter, but I hope and trust you can concede that no one is required to provide you an answer with which you agree.

  As far as "regular subject contributors" go, though, do you count yourself as one? I was quite startled when, upon review of your edit history, I found that you had only made two articlespace comments ever, both two years ago, that you had never improved an article (MMA or otherwise) and that you had never created an article (MMA or otherwise). As I remarked on that talk page this morning, your commentary in the couple weeks you have again been active has been entirely negative: trying to shut down AfDs, attempting to discredit editors with whom you disagree, labeling your opponents as serving a "deletionist agenda" and opposing any proposal to set MMA notability criteria. As such, I would Support a topic ban as Blackmane proposes, until such time as you demonstrate that you intend to be a productive Misplaced Pages editor. Ravenswing 10:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

"Where pertinent, by and large they were answered". First, I have no idea what these "questions" are since I don't need to ask questions about the RfC given that I understand the specifics quite well. The one question I ask about how you define "quality" is still un-answered btw despite the waffling.

1. I generally don't feel the need to log in and prove anything to the world when by chance I feel the need to append a technical entry. The main reason I did so for this MMANOT topic was due to the ridiculous SOCK accusations/"investigation" dropped by the deletionist crowd at every opportunity.
2. the accusation I tried to "shut down AfDs" is entirely true: I said it shows bad faith to use them as leverage during a discussion about the AfD's in question. This is a matter of acting ethically, and I don't know why you feel it's a slight to be ethical.
3. if stating that it's unethically to use AfD's "discredits" anyone, I'll be happy to take credit. I'll repeat again: it's unethical to keep AfDing while the articles are under discussion/review. If there are any other basic moral stances you dislike, please list them as well.
4. "deletionist agenda". I very explicitly said a couple people had deletionist histories, just as you very explicitly said my account has a lackluster history. Both are true, yet you seem to think the statement that's not yours is grounds for a block. Why is that?

Also, please note the impropriety of "supporting" sanctions in an argument you're part of. Same for Blackmane. Shopping for a ban after coming out the worse end of a conversation is a display of conflict of interest and unCIVILized behavior. Agent00f (talk) 10:50, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you are confused. What I was referring to was your conduct on the MMA notability talk page. If the mooted RfC was put up, I have not yet seen it. Secondly, your repeated insistence that I define "quality" for you is an example of the behavior which we find objectionable; that you tendentiously pick some irrelevant word, point or phrase to belabor. As far as sockpuppet allegations go, it was not at all ridiculous given the recent history of MMA here, where dozens of sock- and meatpuppets have already been blocked. Finally, another disruptive habit you display is in distorting people's words and actions. I am not "shopping" for a ban; I responded to a proposal for one here, as I often do, being modestly active in ANI discussions. My first posts on that talk page were less than six hours ago, to which you were quite prompt in tendentious and hostile responses which violated WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, as even one editor quite sympathetic to you pointed out. Ravenswing 11:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

1. "If the mooted RfC was put up, I have not yet seen it." What are you talking about? You replied in the RfC.
2. "that you tendentiously pick some irrelevant word, point or phrase to belabor". It was a simple question about the core your argument lies around. If you don't want to define it, whatever, just ignore it as you've done everywhere else. This is how you replied: "Now I see that you're not only inexperienced with Misplaced Pages, but you have almost no experience with article building (with only 280 edits, and only two in articlespace). While reviewing the links at WP:PILLAR would no doubt prove informative, I especially commend to you WP:ITSUSEFUL, as an example of a generally discredited argument at AfD. " An amusing answer given those pages undermined you own point. When that was pointed out, you were the only one throwing out personal accusations: Finally, while you are so eager to discuss the agenda of others ... what about yours? It is plain that you are not on Misplaced Pages to improve articles - you never have improved an article. It is plain that you are not on Misplaced Pages to create MMA articles - you never have. You’re not even here to suggest ways to improve Misplaced Pages - your commentary has been entirely negative, from trying to shut down AfDs, to trying to discredit editors whom you perceive as opposing your agenda, to opposing any proposal to set notability criteria. Would you care to put your labeling and the talk of agendas to rest, sir, or are you comfortable with your own quite blatant agenda - it’s not that you can claim you are on Misplaced Pages for any other purpose - being the subject of frequent commentary? Now that you seem to be angry this about this, you appear to seek to sanction anyone who dares bring it about.
3. The only remotely "hostile" comment was the remark that the above was petty authority, which is it. The solution here is easy. Don't act with petty authority if that's not a good impression to leave. Agent00f (talk) 11:31, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• As Chillllls noted below, your battleground mentality is part of the problem. As such, I see no reason to further respond to your filibustering, and will restrict myself to answering other editors, who can reasonably be expected to keep their comments concise and to the point. Ravenswing 16:23, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse the topic ban as one of the few ways to stop the incessant disruptive attitude. I note that a topic ban from MMA articles is a de facto siteban as Agent00f has shown effectively no interest in editing outside the MMA topic space Hasteur (talk) 12:06, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• Uh, just a note this is the user who's been harassing me for the last two weeks, like just 5 min ago striking out anything which doesn't suit his/her sensibilities on the MMA talk page in direct violation of TALKO rules. It's pretty amusing nothing ever gets done about this kind of DISRUPTIVE behavior, like selective replies and whatnot, and all this AN harassment.
• PS. Hasteur, don't forget to canvas for more sure sympathetic votes like last time. Agent00f (talk) 12:36, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

For the record, I've never been involved in any of the discussions on articles/policies/guidelines regarding MMA. Unless someone can point to the relevant interactions that suggest otherwise, I would say I'm a fairly neutral party in this matter. Sure I have some strong opinions about how things could be done better, but that isn't clouding my judgement in this matter. Agent00f, you may think I'm here to "win" an argument, that is entirely untrue. I put forward my perspective and will debate them, but if others decide otherwise, then so be it. It's no skin off my back if what I say is judged not to be something worth pursuing. You may see that I have a conflict of interest here in that I am attempting to silence the opposition. Again, you are wrong as I have no horse in the race with regards to MMA, if you are topic banned then it is the community's decision. I decided to put forward the proposal after studying WT:MMANOT. If the topic ban proposal is not agreed to, that too is the community's decision and will not be something I will pursue adamantly to enact against the community's consensus. I have nothing against you personally and in fact have somewhat enjoyed the sparring, but it is what I perceive in how you have stalled the discussion at the talk page that has led me to decide to make this proposal. Blackmane (talk) 12:58, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Again, is this meant as parody? Just look at your own previous comments (note this is was all before the "studying" that supposed changed your mind):

1. Comment I think I said it once before, vape the whole project. Failing that, just indef topic ban them all, then maybe this won't come up every week. Blackmane (talk) 00:12, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
2. And in the rush to endorse this?: Hear hear. Swear to heaven, this is a pretty basic situation:... Ravenswing 01:35, 8 May 2012 (UTC), oops.
3. Would the suggestion of an IBAN between Hastuer and Agent00f as well as a topic ban for Agent00f be off the scale? I've generally not been involved with the whole fiasco that is WP:MMA except for a few comments on, yet another, MMA related ANI I made some months back and when yet another MMA fanboy, BigzMMA, was hauled through ANI. I've seen and read through a number of AfDs on MMA related articles and would generally have voted delete on many of them, but decided against involving myself in that swamp. I give Treygeek and the other AFD regulars an enormous amount of credit for maintaining their sanity in the face of the some of the crap they've been through. Blackmane (talk) 11:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Hasteur also claimed to contact "neutral" members in the last ANI, and I don't recall the admin look too favorably on this when it was shown otherwise. Seem like everyone is quite neutral here, if by neutral we mean kinda hopes the whole thing gets vaped. Remember these are all recorded for posterity. Agent00f (talk) 13:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

If you cannot see that my opinion, from a bystander's perspective, is that sometimes the best way to deal with an infested paddock is to burn the lot to the ground and start again, then either I'm being too vague or you're not reading between the lines. If it looks like I'm siding with anyone, I'm siding with protecting the 'pedia. In fact, I'm going to expand on my call for your topic ban to include general violations of WP:AGF, WP:TE, WP:IDHT, WP:SOAP and WP:BATTLE. Blackmane (talk) 14:23, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Sure, if by bystander you mean someone not a day ago was high-fiving with those berating "fanboys" and support dropping the bomb on a whole subject to prove a point, not a day ago. Surely you have nothing against someone who vehemently opposed the idea, and who you've now found is the only domain expert and stakeholder interest advocate left in the discussion. Oh and btw, the bomb was your proposal. But let's be fair here, you never intended these bombs to start any BATTLE, and it's just awful you need to block someone for the good of wiki. Is it standard policy to assume admins to be idiots who'll believe this? Agent00f (talk) 15:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I have started a RfC/U in regards to Agent00f's conduct. Pending participation, I suggest that the suggestion of sanctions be tabled. Hasteur (talk) 01:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

• Blackmane, an IBAN won't fix anything. I spent months working on MMA articles before Agent showed up, with a little success on getting the two sides of the issue together before I gave up due to Agent's passive-aggressive hostility and the unwillingness of the other side to stop bringing every thing to ANI. It seems that now the floodgates have opened up and everyone on both sides has literally gone 'nanners. Agent is the most culpable in this mess, by a large degree, based on my heavy involvement there previously, had I not been so involved previous to his arrival and could have arguably acted objectively, I would have already taken action a long time ago. It is hard to see with the reams of garbage over there now, so either you trust my judgement or you don't, I suppose. And I liked your first idea better. At this point, Misplaced Pages would be better off with none of it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:14, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• After some thought and due consideration based on the various replies to my suggestion, I'll strike out the IBAN. I'll also retract my topic ban suggestion until the RFC/U has run its course. Blackmane (talk) 09:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikiprojects with related walled garden problems

To be truly honest, the underlying issue is about notability and I think it affects more than just MMA. The core question is simply do major MMA pay-per-view events, such as those held regularly by UFC, meet the notability requirements with just the basic fight information (location, crowd, payouts) and results? That question isn't limited to just MMA though. Take tennis. The tennis project's notability guidelines say that top tier tournaments are notable, but secondary ones aren't, but with 15 seconds of effort, I find 2010 GEMAX Open. For all the MMA drama, any of UFC event articles have far more information than that article. With a bit more effort, you can find similar articles for many other sports. I'll give the MLB and NFL folks huge credit that you don't see as much of this in those areas, especially in football. I have no question that any give NFL game, especially a big rivalry game, generates more and lasting coverage than the average UFC PPV event. There are some attempts to answer the notability question (when it's not being derailed by someone declaring a revolution), but it's a bigger question than just MMA. There are large number of articles across Misplaced Pages that are simply results for various tournaments / events. Per WP:ROUTINE, those should be simple and easy AFD's. Anyone care to start trying that? You can see the madness from MMA, I somehow think other sports will be just as bad if not worse. Ravensfire (talk) 17:38, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

1. Thank you for being thoughtful. Unfortunately these aren't novel insights, but rather tend to crop up each of the half dozen attempts at resolving this issue. Even more unfortunate, historically the persons bring up these insights and subsequent solutions have been ignored or otherwise driven off. Had they been acted on, there's no doubt this would've over months ago and probably set an excellent precedent for all other other entries of the type (you've noted). This isn't at all to trivialize what you're saying (esp since I entirely agree), just noting that we've already been here before. IOW, being more thoughtful about the specifics is very unfortunately not the solution.
2. As mentioned, these types of thoughtful replies constitute the minority on the subject. In fact through direct observation of this AN as a microcosm of the broader dilemma, we can see that it's mostly just throwing around trite WP:BULLSHIT. It's uncertain whether this is simply a relection of an opinion that application of "established" processes takes priority over thinking about what's going on; or at this point, implies a lack of capacity to self-refection or understand 1. Without the kind of detail/insight which you're trying to provide, it's not possible to resolve problems except by accident, and we haven't been that lucky due to WP:TLDR and WP:ASSUMETHISWORKS. Put another way, this is a classic case where the aggregate level of intelligence displayed has been insufficient to solve it, but this kind of observation is inherently difficult to appreciate.
3. This specific proposition of "nuke it from orbit" is the perfect reflection of the mindset and situation just described. The general idea is not only that topics which aren't "encyclopedic" don't belong here, but issues which can't be resolved by the same mindset don't belong here. While this isn't a bad point to make since compatibility with the wiki zeitgeist is a concern, but the solution proposed has nothing to do with the broader goal of serving wiki users. My main observation on it is that it's a mindset and idea mainly propagated by those with no stake in the outcome: iow, "I don't care for this subject so let's just get rid of it." Agent00f (talk) 09:11, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Having had a look at the link that Ravensfire posted for the tennis tournament, if you go to the category there are literally hundreds of articles which are little more than results scorecards and draws. Interestingly, sampling just a few almost all of them were created by just one editor. In fact, I randomly sampled about 30 articles from that category for 2009 and almost every one was created by them, with the exception of maybe 1 or 2. The ones I sampled in 2010 were created by another user. This is a little off topic but this surface scratching is only just revealing the scale of the issue here. Blackmane (talk) 00:04, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Exactly; these type of walled gardens are commonplace in many Wikiprojects, even those that don't focus on sports topics. When an attempt is made by a non-project editor to enforce what should be a site-wide notability policy for inclusion or an element of the MOS, the project editors come out of the woodwork to give their reasons as to why articles on such-and-such topic are exempt from the rules (mostly clever variations of ILIKEIT). It's not that the MMA project is the worst when it comes to stuff like this, they just have the most visible (and arguably the most obtuse) IP meatpuppets at this time. Chillllls (talk) 05:10, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I would agree with that. Projects sometimes set their own notability rules or style conventions &c (with style, it's more often the habit of one or two prolific editors, rather than a written guideline); this is not inherently a bad thing, but when those project rules conflict with en.wikipedia rules, we get lots of drama and timewasting. In terms of notability, it often leans towards inclusionism, but not always. IIRC there was one case where a project had a spring-clean and took a bunch of articles to AfD which appeared to fall short of the project's notability guideline even though some passed the GNG by a considerable margin. I stumbled across one project which had a very widely used template which is inherently incompatible with the MOS. There are limits to centralisation - and I wouldn't call for millions of ritual edits to shift articles from project-style to MOS-style - but the conflicts between projects rules and en.wikipedia rules are a problem which we should try to mitigate. bobrayner (talk) 07:36, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I've split this section off as it's not really related to the situation above and may just move this to the talk page, although we could continue this discussion on one of our talk pages until we can come up with some sensible plan of action (if such is required or desirable). We're coming to the point we're some of us have identified a deep rooted issue and it looks like this really requires a much wider community input than just a few people having a "hmmmm" moment on ANI. I'm not against any particular wikiptoject (although the MMA makes me sigh...repeatedly) but allowing each project to go off and establish their own rules and guidelines outside those of the core policies is going to be a nightmare to fix. Blackmane (talk) 08:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. It's been a problem in the diacritics wars, too. It's not a crisis but we really ought to do something... somewhere... bobrayner (talk) 10:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I contest there's a back room deal going on to make a lower standard for MMA than the rest of en.WP. We're having the discussion at the SNG page for MMA to help define a very specific set of "It Must Have"s so that the MMA community can know exactly what is needed.Hasteur (talk) 12:02, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree to that. There needs to be a stringent set of absolute minimum baseline notability requirements that all sports projects should adhere to with no loosening. Projects should be free to build on the requirements but not weaken them to their liking so that articles can scrape by with notability. Blackmane (talk) 09:34, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Ironically this is what the MMA userbase has said from the start: the general guidelines for established sports contains elements which are difficult to apply to the unique circumstances and format of MMA, a new burgeoning sport (high double digit year over year growth). This is a general problem for all such sports, and MMA is only notable for the often negative attention it draws from some elements in society. However, instead of using this an opportunity to fix the problem, we're only allowed to look at thoughtless and trite bandaids. Agent00f (talk) 22:48, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

What the MMA user(fan)base wants is to have the SNG loosened so they can have their individual event pages policy abiding. This opens up a can of worms that allows virtually any sport to have similar pages. How popular a sport is, or is becoming, is irrelevant. Blackmane (talk) 23:38, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Pretty much. The tactic they've gone with is obfuscation, delay, denigration of opponents and ignoring points made. Ravensfire (talk) 23:42, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

There was a very substantive proposal on the talk page which avoids these problems. Unfortunately the anti-fans here continue to make assertion despite ignorance of these specifics. Also, Ravensfire, I can't speak for anyone else but can you point to which points I've avoided? I'd be happy to address them provide you can promise a reply in kind. All I see is the exact opposite on this page: dozens of points from me conveniently ignored by anti-fans under the banner of TLDR. Many of them were directly to you. This seems extremely hypocritical but I'll assume good faith. If it was because they were difficult to understand, I can try to reformulate. Agent00f (talk) 01:11, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

"This sees extremely hypocritical but I'll assume good faith." Facepalm Chillllls (talk) 02:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

The hypocrisy is tautological, the only factor open to interpretation is intent. How would you describe it instead? That is not a rhetorical question. Agent00f (talk) 02:12, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

It's interesting that you're saying the hypocrisy may be unintentional when many of your posts here and at the WP:MMANOT talk page heavily imply that you believe there is a grand conspiracy of four or five editors attempting to deliberately sidetrack discussion of the MMA guidelines. As to my facepalm, I simply thought the juxtaposition of the accusation of hypocrisy and AGF was humorous. You can play rhetorical games all you want (and I actually enjoy them); but c'mon, I know apophasis when I see it. Chillllls (talk) 02:44, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

There's no belief or assuming involved here. 3 editors have been the common denominator of all previous failures. This is a simple observable fact (do you disagree?). That they often work together is also a fact stated by an admin who worked with them, and also readily evidenced when they want to delete something (always vote together, always revert war together, whereas no one else is nearly as organized). The hypocrisy is also not much of an "accusation". It's blatantly obvious that Ravensfire, et al, stated the MMA fanbase avoids their points, all while ignoring many many points to the extent of remaining silent when this behavior is called out. This is recorded right above. That's what hypocrisy is by definition. I don't see how any of this is a "game". If anything, being told to AGF when I say a bottle is resting on the table feels more like a game. Agent00f (talk) 04:32, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Agent00f, the only reason there's "3 editors" instead of a landslide is because a small group of, we'll call them "pro-MMA editors" for want of a better term, have so poisoned the well that nobody who actually cares about Misplaced Pages policy dares go there anymore. it's such an absolutely disgusting morass of fanboyism, incivility, personal attacks and bad faith that we've all washed our hands and left in disgust because we have better things to do than suffer the slings and arrows of outraged 'editors' for whom anything other than a page for every event, ever, is proof of a cabal that's out to destroy MMA. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

And yet, for all those previous failures, only a consistent tiny minority with no interest in the subject have been allowed to control the agenda while hopping on their cross, while regular MMA stakeholders (you know, people who'll be saddled with the rules) continue to either leave in disgust or forcibly. Can someone please provide a brightline rule of how many failures a given executive group are granted before we allow pursuit of alternative strategies? Thanks. Agent00f (talk) 08:14, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Can you please clarify if something in my fact-checking or analysis is amiss, or it just you don't like what the results say? Personally, I don't think the results are surprising given the history of this whole affair. They're unfortunate, I agree, but not unexpected. This isn't a rhetorical question and the answer quite important to my decision. Agent00f (talk) 14:24, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I think the big problem here is that you are fundamentally unable to comprehend this situation in a non-battleground mentality. You see it as a conflict between some cabal of "non-interested" editors who want to gut your focus area and a few valiant defenders of your noble sport. Your "Facts of the Case" in the above section is a perfect example of this: you describe your personal perception of how you see the debate as a list of objective facts! Your analysis is just that, your own personal subjective analysis. How do you not understand that distinction? You vacillate between alleging conpiracies and condescending dismissals of reasoning that doesn't fit your POV. You think you're frustrated? Try to step outside yourself for a moment and see things from another point of view. Chillllls (talk) 14:57, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I fully realize that it's not trivial to the see the difficulty of either my situation or anyone who dissents against a very dominant opinion on this topic. However, simply look at the record of my first week on the talk page: but a small sample of the threats ("final warning") and intimation. I've had so many calls for sanctions against me by now from the same predictable parties that I mostly act a comedy routine. If there's a BATTLE going on, it's not been one that anyone on the wrong side of dominant opinion on this subject chooses, unless their participation is that choice. When I look at the other side, I see mostly cross hopping by people who game the system with questionable ethics (eg. the "neutral" editor who just happens to call for nuking the space and everyone on the wrong side). Perhaps I've become biased, though, so maybe you can point to what they've been suffering in comparison. If anything with time I've only seen just how much they milk it.

The real irony though is despite my profession which dictates what constitutes "fact" to humanity, I still get these ridiculous accusations that I don't understand how empirical observation works. In a way it's poignant for a community like wiki to by populated by know-it-alls, but OTOH it's also why tight citation requirements exist on mainstream articles. The technical side of the project has quite lackluster sourcing, yet seems generally safe from the ridiculous AfD campaigns. Should we expect Liouville_function or Soft_Heap to come under attack by this group anytime soon or should MMA peeps make their articles just as obscure to protect them? Agent00f (talk) 16:08, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:POINTy nominations of ANTM articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Some MMA fanboys:

• Mississippistfan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 70.147.72.167 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and
• AugustWest1980 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

have nominated/called for the deletion of some ANTM articles in the mistaken belief it will somehow annoy me, they are Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/America's Next Top Model, Cycle 18 and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/America's Next Top Model. Can an admin have a look. Mtking 21:08, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Never did I nominate any article for deletion. I gave my opinion on an existing aFd, and in no way did I ever mention you or make it personal. You drag me to ANI in retaliation? I quoted Wiki policy when giving my Delete vote. You have a problem with it? Debate it in the aFd. AugustWest1980 (talk) 21:19, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Curious - based on your strikeout, will you also be going through and striking out all hostile terms being directed towards Mtking? Ravensfire (talk) 21:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Curious, which are you referring? The aFd's for ATM made no mention of Mtking, and I believe that is the subject of this ANI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AugustWest1980 (talk • contribs) 21:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your (non) answer which was pretty much as expected. Ravensfire (talk) 21:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I have not directed any hostile terms at MtKing, but he most certainly directed one at me, which I struck-out. It is not my job to go protect Mtking from insults on WP, but I can most certainly react when they are hurled at me. I guess you felt it needed unstruck, so you're also okay with insults being hurled in ANI. Noted. AugustWest1980 (talk) 21:30, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• Does use of a derogatory insult like fanboys and resorting to name-calling really proper for ANI? AugustWest1980 (talk) 21:29, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

The word "fanboy" is used 20 (now 21 times) on this page so it would appear so. Mtking 21:51, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Of course the person using the insulting term will jump to defend it. Definitely not civil. AugustWest1980 (talk) 21:53, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't really understand this whole section which btw assumes bad faith. Shouldn't there be a discussion led by people outside of modeling interests on the relevant talk page instead, while these AfD's are ongoing? I'm sure AugustWest1980 and other neutral parties will stop if the modeling fangirls or any others out to ruin wiki agree to a solution that divides up the shows by calendar months. Personally I don't know anything about modeling, but I'd vote SUPPORT for that kind of article design. To be fair though, in the words of Ravenswing, all these frivolous reality TV shows hardly seem notable given they have no lasting effect on anything. Agent00f (talk) 00:04, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

• I have closed the two AfDs with a SNOW keep, as "obvious bad faith nominations". The MMA problem is difficult enough without this sort of game-playing. DGG ( talk ) 00:18, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

• In the same vein would you close MMA space nominations if we're able to demonstrate "obvious bad faith" or are some subjects or editors more equal than others here? Agent00f (talk) 00:25, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

• I give a support for going a permanent (indefinite) block in these three users. ApprenticeFan 02:53, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
• I don't think we should indef the IP address, but a block is needed due to the IPs bragging that he/she can't be blocked, and gross incivility.  I don't know why Mississippistfan isn't already indeffed, maybe someone is trying to find a sock master.  I think that AugustWest1980 issue should be considered separately.  Unscintillating (talk) 12:20, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
• I will admit that I may have had a hand in Mississippifan's participation in this set of AfDs by suggesting that if they truly believed that some WWE articles that they had complained about on another user's talk page were not notable that they should WP:SOFIXIT Hasteur (talk) 12:34, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean?  Special:Contributions/Mississippistfan is a new account with 2 of the first 4 edits being AfD nominations.  Both AfD nominations were both procedurally closed as bad faith nominations.  By implication of the fact that Speedy Keep's can't be rendered with a Delete vote present, AugustWest1980's delete votes were ruled as inadmissible.  Unscintillating (talk) 13:53, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

It's on User Talk:Mississippistfan. I'm trying to put all my cards, good and bad, on the table. Hasteur (talk) 15:47, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Your comment to User Talk:Mississippistfan was at

• 2012-05-11T15:15:12‎

Mississippistfan's last post was at:

• 2012-05-11T15:01:46

So your later post could not possibly have had anything to do with the two bad faith AfD nominations (refs here and here), nor the incivility here and here.  The question remains, why is Mississippistfan not already indeffed?  Unscintillating (talk) 03:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Editor help

I hope this is the correct place to post (if not, please point me in the right direction). User:Baku Shad-do has been removing sourced content from the article Crosses (band) (diff, diff, diff, diff). There has been a discussion about the genre before here (which I pointed out to the editor) that argues for the inclusion. The editor's argument is that the sources on the genre article prove that sources are wrong because of their description/definition of what the genre is. However, he has failed to provide sources that specifically state that Crosses are not witch house. I have assumed the editor was new (editing since May 6) and pointed out the three core policies of Misplaced Pages (WP:V, WP:OR and WP:NPOV), in case he wasn't aware, on my talk page. All I received in reply was a warning and the threat of a report to admin. I tried to make myself clear to him, but it looks like I've failed. Could someone weigh in on this small issue? Would appreciate it. HrZ (talk) 21:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I dropped an edit warring warning on their talk page as they're up to 3 reverts already. You're also up to 3 reverts so please stop reverting each other. I also find it ironic that he pointed out your spelling errors when he made an error himself. He may also have a conflict on interest seeing as he's apparently the owner of a label. Beyond the edit warring, this is really a content dispute and would be better taken to the dispute resolution noticeboard. Blackmane (talk) 23:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Blackmane, I was not removing sourced content, I removed a music genre label. The criteria of labeling a genre is not the same as using a source in a description. I have adequately sourced the definition in the genre and have provided an article that accurately traces the origins of the genre. The issue is that a certain beat-form is the defining element of all witch house music. The band has no material that fits the paradigm. I can give you access to more articles if you'd like or access to an entire forum where all the artists from the genre converse. In addition, the user known as HrZ seems not to know that the articles he's using were long ago found to be in error, indicating he has no further knowledge of the genre (beyond the articles he's using as sources). I will gladly give you the means to connect with any number of writers who have covered the genre in depth, the issue is not about a personal conflict, it is about showing respect to a genre and not allowing for the corporate misuse and abuse of a term to promote a mainstream artist who has nothing to do with the genre. Baku Shad-do (talk) 00:36, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

At best? Listen man, there are a bunch of people who have no real or defined knowledge of the genre or the music from it, posting poorly researched articles willy nilly that disrespect the genre and have a negative impact on the public perception of the genre. There's a wikipedia editing group that is actually specifically supposed to oversee problem definitions for genres, but none of you have handled the procedure correctly, by getting them involved. I'll rectify that on Monday. Baku Shad-do (talk) 21:43, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you were removing sourced content. You just don't like the source. Also, you did not add any source to support the genre you replaced it with. I also note that you have not participated in the discussion on the Talk page about the genre, so you have no reasonable basis for unilaterally altering the article. You've also been editing the Witch house (music genre) article, even though, just as with the band article, you have a clear conflict of interest (I've placed tags on both articles). The genre article is a mess, although it looks like it was a mess even before you edited it. I don't have time to review either article in depth at the moment, but, if only based on your conflict, I suggest you back off and stick to discussing the content in these articles on their Talk pages rather than directly editing them. You also have edit-warred on the genre article.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:40, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Criticism in an encyclopedic context is a legitimate sourced criticism, not intentional defamation of a genre. You can source defamation, but that does not make it legitimate criticism. You need to learn the difference between the two and yes there is a legal definition. I did provide sources, just because you don't like them doesn't mean you have the right to condescend. Although I do have a label that doesn't necessarily make me biased. I'm honest enough to say what my connection is, yes I'm involved in the scene, but odds are both you and the other poster are as well, hence your vehemence that you're right. Your lack of disclosure of your relation to the scene points to the likelihood that you have a biased agenda, whether it be direct or indirect. Let's get an actual administrator involved. Baku Shad-do (talk) 13:32, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

You would like an administrator to weigh in? Sure. You (Baku Shad-do) are edit warring, removing content that is verified by a reliable source. Your only defense for doing so is your own original research that the band simply isn't in that genre, despite the fact that the source says it is. I do see some concern on the article's talk page that this source may not be reliable; if this is the case, then the information should be removed. If, however, the source is reliable, it should be re-added. Misplaced Pages does not rely upon the personal analysis of its editors for information, including for characterizing the genre of a particular artist. Note that if you had an additional reliable source stating that they are not witch house, then I would recommend taking it out of the infobox and discussing the two competing sides in the text proper; you, however, have not produced such a source.

So, in short, the editors should figure out if that meets WP:RS (try WP:RSN if you're not sure), and, if it does, feel free to re-add it, and it should be removed only if counter-sources are found. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Pitchfork's reliability has come into question on occassion, though I am unsure wither this is down to a few articles on the site or the site itself. However, there was a discussion on this genre before and User:Fezmar9 posted two more sources labelling the band witch house: "Actually, the issue is much larger than that since other reliable sources see Crosses as witch house such as The New Zealand Herald and Forbes—the latter of which even acknowledges that the term originated as a joke, but has legitimate applications today." Baku Shad-do has finally taking to the article talk page, my reply was very similar to yours (Qwyrxian), that he should provide sources stating that they are not witch house and any questions of reliability of the sources to be taking to WP:RSN. Also, is there any chance that someone could revert back to the sourced version until discussions are done? Currently, the version has an unsourced genre added by Baku Shad-do. HrZ (talk) 13:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Original research? Listen, this is no insult to your credibility, but I owned one of the original three labels in the genre, I am one of the people who helped define the term, which doesn't make me biased it makes me a legitimate direct source. Baku Shad-do (talk) 21:11, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

At best, it makes you an expert, and although experts can make valuable contributions to Misplaced Pages, they must comply with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, which you fail to do.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

At best? That's more than a little bit insulting. Listen man, there are a number of people with no real knowledge of the genre, outside of reading a few articles, who are posting poorly researched and factually erroneous articles willy nilly that disrespect the genre and negatively affect the public perception of it (that is not the purpose of Misplaced Pages). Misplaced Pages has a proper and specific procedure for problem articles surrounding music genres, which I can plainly see hasn't even been observed by anyone, including the admins here. There is a Misplaced Pages music genre editing project that is supposed to deal with such specific issues, such as correcting problem edits for all genres. I'll make sure they get involved by Monday. Baku Shad-do (talk) 21:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

This editor has now started yet another conversation about this where they admit to possibly recruiting on an outside forum. . Ridernyc (talk) 01:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely I will, I plan to share all of these conversations with the members of the genre, that way they can see why their genre is being poorly defined and misrepresented. If you'll carefully read at the bottom of the page, Misplaced Pages has granted the right to share its contents, given that they are properly cited, by their Creative Commons licensing. If the current editors can't do an honest job then Misplaced Pages needs more editors with knowledge of the genre. Baku Shad-do (talk) 01:31, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Baku Shad-do, I know that this sounds weird, but relying on your own personal knowledge as one of the preeminent people in the field is exactly what Misplaced Pages defines as original research. For example, Jimbo Wales, founder of Misplaced Pages, cannot go to the article on Misplaced Pages, and edit it based on something that he remembers happening in the past. Information is included in Misplaced Pages (when done correctly) only when it can be verified in a reliable source. If you think about it, you can probably see why this is necessary--just because someone is an expert does not mean someone is infallible. In fact, experts regularly disagree, all the time--it's practically the foundation of how academic research works. The whole point of WP:V and WP:OR is that anyone should be able to see, via a citation, where the information on Misplaced Pages comes from. So, as I said, if you can produce reliable sources that say that this band is not witch house, then you can include those in the article along with the originals that say it is, and then we have the perfectly acceptable situation where we say, "Different sources disagree on this point". I hope this helps explain how Misplaced Pages works so that this matter can be resolved. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

In addition, Baku, recruiting other people to edit in a certain way is meatpuppetry and is against policy, just so that's clear. However Qwy explains things very well. I might suggest you also read, in addition to the verifiability policy, the reliable sources policy and the no original research policy, the verifibility, not truth essay (and its light-hearted but point-making crazy uncle, WP:TRUTH, along with possibly WP:GWARRIOR). Being right is something Misplaced Pages should absolutely aspire to, but more important than being absolutely right is being reliably verifiable. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Apparently this "edit" war has been happening since at least December seems this topic is a popular one for various groups hoax and troll over online. Looking over the talk page and edit history I think some sort of page protection might be in order here. Ridernyc (talk) 15:26, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Junior Achievement

Could someone take a look at this article for me. An editor, with a very clear COI, keeps on inserting text that is, in my opinion overly-promotional. The editor seems to be under several misconceptions about Misplaced Pages having made statements like "We manage our brand very carefully and would not want our Misplaced Pages page content created by someone outside Junior Achievement" (see the article talk page for more). There seems to be a clear failure to listen and I think admin action of some sort may now may be appropriate but I'm too involved now. Dpmuk (talk) 18:47, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• That is one hot mess. I reverted. Dpmuk, there are three relatively fresh accounts in there: I think maybe you should start an SPI. I've left an "only warning" for the most recent COI editor--they've been aware of this since January yet they persist in guarding their brand, and turning the article into promotion. I agree that a block is in order, but I'd prefer someone else to look at this as well. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 19:02, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
• I've left a friendly, informative message at User talk:Sbell1964co, so at this point I believe the ball is in their court. They cannot claim ignorance of Misplaced Pages's policies on this any more. Let us see where this goes before taking any action. Hopefully, the message I left will get the point accross, if it doesn't we can only assume a willful disregard for Misplaced Pages's standards. I say wait for the next move, however, before deciding to take further action. --Jayron32 19:20, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Given the discussion on the article's talk page where both Moonriddengirl and I mentioned WP:COI and which they must have seen (as they've replied to it) I don't think they were able to claim ignorance before today's events.
  • As for the WP:SPI idea I'm not sure this would serve a useful purpose as we already know they work for the same organisation and any other links between them could also plausibly be explained by this. Dpmuk (talk) 19:29, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Yes, but at my place of work individual computers (I think) have individual IPs. That could point at more than just being colleagues. Drmies (talk) 19:47, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
      • Could be multiple private IP's sharing a pool of public IP's though. Ravensfire (talk) 21:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• • • • • I feel the situation might be salvageable. I've offered to help if they agree to cease article-space edits. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 20:38, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Indefing of User:Samofi

I'd like to have Samofi's case reviewed by the admins who have been involved in the whole affair, particularly User:Ironholds and User:AGK. But first and foremost I'd like point out that I'm NOT a fan of Samofi (far from it) and don't think that the month-long ban for the violation of his topic ban should be lifted. In fact I'm still convinced that Samofi's pushing his agenda (and luck :P) too much. Yet when reviewing the alleged sockpuppet's (meatpuppet's?) activity it became obvious to me that he can't be Samofi.

The fate of the sockpuppet in question (User:Savneli) is an interesting one indeed. First an SPI has been started against it by Nmate for User:Iaaasi. Unfortunately I've realized early on that Nmate was completely wrong about this account (he seems to have this tendency to see Iaaasi behind every hostile user/sock, while in fact most non-Hungarian editors editing Hungarians-related articles hate him, especially Slovaks, Romanians and Serbs): firstly Iaaasi's a troll, which's becoming more and more apparent (it's particularly evident from his comments on his SPI page) so his edits are mostly made with the intention of trolling (and inserting pro-Romanian content every once in a while). When Iaaasi poses as a Slovak user, this is particularly evident: almost all of his edits show signs of trolling meant to annoy Hungarian editors (especially Nmate of course). Moreover Iaaasi never seems to be able the resist the temptation of editing articles related to Romania too (especially Transylvania, where he has another opportunity of trolling Hungarian editors). Savneli's edits not only don't follow this pattern, but in his last edits completely break it: Savneli's edits consist exclusively of removal of Hungarian content (especially town names) and/or replacing them with their Slovak counterparts, asserting some historical persons' Slovak identity (IDK if Iaaasi ever did that) or adding a "famous Slovak" to an article of a town in Slovakia with predominantly Hungarian population (), which Iaaasi would never do (since he lacks the necessary background information and lingual knowledge for that). So the gist of Savneli's edits point to a Slovak editor. I don't know when did Ironholds' and AGK's attention turn to Samofi, but since both Savneli and IndoEuropean1988 (a fairly blatant sock of Iaaasi) have been banned by Ironholds (and I haven't found any public records of AGK and Ironholds discussing this), I can only assume that Samofi came into the picture only later.

Yesterday I took the time of performing a more thorough investigation regarding Savneli, and that's when I figured out the REAL user who's behind it. There were two clues that led to this: his editing pattern(s) and his last two edits (the rest are reinsertion of his patent nonsense into Nmate's talk page hence they don't count). The first clue was the fact that all of Savneli's edits were either minor edits, replacement of Hungarian town names with their Slovak counterparts or reverts, with no talk page entries at all. This is in great contrast with both Iaaasi and Samofi who have made numerous talk page entries too and their English proficiency is well-known (and obviously on a fairly decent level, especially for Iaaasi). The greatest eye opener though was the text about a certain "Prof. Cavalli", because I knew that I've seen this text before. After a while I've realized that the first time I've seen it it was actually in Slovak. And guess who posted it on my talk page? None other than User:Bizovne himself (the IP account has been revealed to be used by Bizovne at the time)! So then I've taken a closer look at the rant (about Cavalli and Hungarian genes) and realized that it's basically a snippet of the translation I've made of my conversation with him (even with all the mistakes I've left in out of laziness).

So, the "executive summary" of the text above (for ADHD types :P): User:Savneli, which first been suspected to be User:Iaaasi's, then User:Samofi's sock, is in fact User:Bizovne's sock. Hence the indef ban of Samofi issued by User:AGK should be lifted. -- CoolKoon (talk) 22:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

This is a {{checkuserblock}} and can't be reversed by an administrator unless they have CU access themselves. I will re-check my results, and ask another checkuser to look again if I remain of the same opinion about the technical link between the accounts.

Were you e-mailed by Samofi? (I was.) AGK 22:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

No. In fact I'm not in contact with Samofi at all (au contraire - we have quite a few grave disagreements and he's even complained about me in a previous ANI report). And I'm quite surprised that CU has pointed to Samofi, since this editor's editing pattern just doesn't match that of Samofi. On the other hand it matches Bizovne's behavior quite well. As for geolocation, Slovakia's geolocation data is notoriously bad (basically only users of Bratislava and maybe Kosice and other notable cities get geolocated correctly, the rest gets either geolocated to the closest city, or Bratislava, or their geolocation's completely off), so even if that would've matched Samofi with Savneli, it isn't of much use. Sure, I can't argue with CU if it found some matching IPs (especially within the same time frame), but I think that it's highly unprobable that the Savneli=Samofi. -- CoolKoon (talk) 23:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I do not know if Samofi is still editing Misplaced Pages under sock-accounts, however , I know about him that he is not a trustworthy person; no matter what he says. Once already he stated that he did not use sockpuppets :, and it came to light that User:CsabaBabba was a sockpuppet of him. But of course it is possible that Savneli was Bizovne.--Nmate (talk) 09:25, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Fine, but we can still agree on the fact that it wasn't Iaaasi, right? :P -- CoolKoon (talk) 15:08, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I explicitly ruled out Samofit an Iaaasi sock. (Also, I have replied to you on my talk page concerning the fact that you took this block directly to ANI without first taking it up with me. Long-standing convention, the instructions in the header, and good manners would have you consult an editor about a problem with some action or another of theirs before hauling them to ANI.) AGK 20:43, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

But I still fail to understand what led to surface Samofi as the puppet master of Savneli. Even Savneli's talk page shows that there's "technical evidence" against him, but I failed to find the records of this technical evidence (perhaps it isn't public?). All I'm saying is that even though Samofi's a heavy POV pusher, I don't think that indefing him due to the trolling of a Slovak maniac is a good idea. -- CoolKoon (talk) 10:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Query

This is rather general: what do I do when I suspect sockpuppet activity from multiple anonymous IPs, none of which necessarily link to a registered username? Do I just go to the vandalism noticeboard? Thanks in advance. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 01:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

• SPIs won't link accounts to IPs, so that's not helpful--"link to a ... username" does not exist, in a way, and the term "sockpuppet" doesn't really apply either if it's not "linked", however one defines it. AIV is probably best, with some explanation: WP:DUCK-ness will be assessed by the admin on duty. Semi-protection is often in option if it concerns one or not many more articles. I can look into it, if you like. Drmies (talk) 03:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure about that? I have often reported IPs to SPI, and many have been blocked for sockpuppetry. CheckUser will not link IPs, but that is no reason not to request a standard sockpuppet investigation. RolandR (talk) 15:08, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, sure, but the question was (I think) about the linking, which won't be done via CU. Admins there can of course decide to block based on behavior. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please. If my response is not clear (and I can see how that might be the case) it's because the question seems a bit muddled to me, and without specifics I can't be more precise. Thanks Roland, Drmies (talk) 19:12, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll be on a better wifi connection tomorrow, so I'll collect the necessary data and submit it. Thanks everyone. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 19:40, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Another RFPP backlog needs clearing

The usual, WP:RFPP is getting pretty backlogged with 38 requests currently pending. Most are recent but a few are two or more days old so should be dealt with quickly. tutterMouse (talk) 13:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

This problem could be alleviated if there were more active admins. But since becoming an admin requires running through a gauntlet of current malcontents and future banned users, the number of admins is understandably small. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:00, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I did a bunch, but I didn't realise the sheer amount of the backlog. I have to be heading out now, so some other admin can take care of the rest. I did the most recent (i.e. the least likely to be stale). Maxim_(talk) 15:24, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I drop by there regularly, but I have to say that some editors are awfully quick to request protection, and these aren't always quick and easy decision. The "paperwork" is relatively easy because of the templates, but not every admin fills it out (that is, responds by leaving the proper template) and so sometimes it appears there is a backlog when there isn't. For me, the way every individual request is a template and editing it requires the whole page to load and reload is a bit irritating, especially on a not-so-fast connection and with a small screen. Drmies (talk) 19:15, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

How hard would it be to add it to the box in upper right corner of Template:Admin dashboard, with a count, and an indicator that turns red above a specified hurdle?

I always visit that page, and have a Pavlovian response to red bars, but don't visit as often, some of the queues popping up here with regular requests.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:19, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

It's not possible to add that individual backlog to the boxie, as the individual articles are not placed in a category. However, there are many untended gardens needing admin-work that appear in Category:Administrative backlog (fifteen different backlogged admin tasks right now), so I placed a thing at the bottom of the chart that I hope will help. We can try it out -- Dianna (talk) 18:54, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• I've tried my hand at the more obvious cases, to reduce the load to an acceptable level. Feel free to trout me if it is justified, as it was my first time there. I didn't move the completed sections either, not sure why the bot doesn't do that any more. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

User:RhymeNero

User:Vaoverland

Vaoverland, despite being dead is still considered a unblocked user. Previous policy has blocked dead people's accounts from Misplaced Pages. --Thebirdlover (talk) 18:00, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

What "previous policy"? WP:DWG (a guideline) seems to cover it now. I don't see any evidence the account has been compromised.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:12, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

A lot of users such as User:Kwantus, User:Nataraja, User:Xulin, User:Rydel, User:Dalf, User:Baderimre were blocked because of their deaths. --Thebirdlover (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

That helps. I looked at just the first in your list, and the basis for the block was WP:BLOCK. I then looked back at WP:BLOCK as of about the time of Kwantus's block, and there was a subsection called Death, which said: "The account(s) of users who are conclusively known to have died may be blocked indefinitely to prevent their use by other parties." That is no longer in the policy (I didn't check to see when it was removed or why). Thus, it would seem that we have only the guideline I cited. I should also note that the previous policy was stated in the permissive voice ("may be blocked").--Bbb23 (talk) 18:53, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

In the event that such an account is compromised then we would have to block. But without such a basis then I see no reason to block an account and, indeed, it seems rather disrespectful. TerriersFan (talk) 19:15, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Why would it be disrespectful? en.wikipedia is not a memorial; it's an encyclopædia. If there is zero chance that the account owner will resume making constructive edits, and a nonzero chance that somebody other than the owner will get into the account (presumably they can have as many password attempts as they want), then what is the point of the account continuing to be able to make edits? It's hardly disrespectful that passports, driving licences, bank accounts &c get stopped after the holder's death; and nobody else is going to use their frequent-flier card. Why should an account here be any different? bobrayner (talk) 10:48, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Agree with bobrayner - surely it's far more respectful to protect the deceased editor's image and reputation by ensuring that her/his identity cannot be abused, rather than wait until it happens and then block. PamD 11:12, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree - a confirmed-deceased Wikipedian should have their account(s) blocked to avoid either account hijacking or vandal/troll grave-dancing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Then shouldn't we put it back in WP:BLOCK, or at least try to figure out why it was removed? I can see both sides of this issue. On the one hand, there's no real reason to block a no-longer-used account unless there's some evidence that it's been compromised. On the other hand, I see no particular harm in blocking the account of someone whose death has been confirmed. It may feel disrespectful, but it isn't really - the account is preserved and labeled appropriately. I lean toward (1) revising WP:BLOCK and (2) blocking the account as soon as the death is confirmed. My reasons are it's just administratively easier to tidy everything up at the same time and it eliminates the possibility, no matter how remote, of compromise.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Constant disruption by socks of User:Loveshirley

This user's sockpuppetry case needs attention as there are spam link and travel guide additions to articles on various Chinese cities every day. GotR 18:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

This sounds like it might be a job for the editfilter, or if they really perservere, the global site blocklist. -- The Anome (talk) 19:30, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Adding to the global site blocklist won't resolve the second part of the problem: consistent addition of peacock-y material that belongs in the travel guide. GotR 21:17, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Socks need blocking

See UP & recent contribs hf24 21:04, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

• I don't think I really care to look into this. I did remove some incorrect "confirmed and indef-blocked" templates from this one and from hf25. Drmies (talk) 21:10, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

• I've indeffed User:Hurricanefan24 and emailed the functionaries. Thanks. Reaper Eternal (talk) 01:05, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Wow this is extremely disappointing, easily caught me and the rest of the editors who knew him off-guard. I saw lots of potential in HF25, and gained me and most of the community respect only to be a sock of a known troll. Sigh how many times is this going to be the same story over and over again in which a disruptive sockmaster evades himself with a new account, and it takes such a long time if ever before it gets exposed. And when they usually did that, the socking is usually obvious but ignored. I don't even want to know how many socks are editing the project. It is just upsetting on how the community didn't caught this earlier considering the main account was a advanced vandal sockmaster with a recent history of socking.

At least HF25 had the courage to self-expose himself and supposedly the rest of the accounts, as socks in what seems to be in good faith, which I've rarely ever seen in my eight years in the project. I don't know why he did it, maybe to make amends with the community and if that's the case I might support an unblock with restrictions of course. But we need to be more careful considering how well he hid his tracks, this would have been swept under the rug and probably would have been too late before we figured out he's a sock. Secret 07:12, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Was he acting disruptively with these socks? Silverseren 18:03, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Reference desk troll

I'm not sure if this is the right place, but 84.61.181.19 is the current incarnation of the German reference desk troll. In the past weeks he has been trolling the various reference desks, redirects for creation (repeatedly, at length) and, rather pointy, requests for page protection when he created Talk:9Live HD, asked to have it protected from creation - and immediately recreated it after it was deleted. Twice. I have presented some more obviously trollish edits; others are much more subtle, some arguably even make good redirects, but he is a net drain on the project, and we cannot assume good faith with him. Blocking the IP won't stop him for good, but it has been stable for the past three weeks. Huon (talk) 21:45, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

And I also speedy deleted the Talk:9Live HD page, as per the SD request, only to have it recreated once again. On the basis of the above, I have to say I support the request to block the IP. My one question would be whether we could clearly do so on the basis of it being used as a sock by an indefinitely banned user, as I myself didn't see on the Long term abuse page specific information regarding whether he had already been indefinitely banned. John Carter (talk) 22:33, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Salted Talk:9Live HD. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:30, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

The blueness of this place

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

When will this Chrome bug be fixed? For security reasons this is the browser I need to be using. 76.121.23.59 (talk) 01:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

If you set your zoom to 100% everything doesn't look blue. Ryan Vesey Review me! 01:32, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

If you're currently seeing blue then you might want to adjust your zoom. Try ctrl + 0, or ctrl and the + and - keys (or ctrl and the mouse wheel). Bunnies! Leave a message 01:33, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

User:Claude A. R. Kagan dead

According to what an IP and another website said, this user has apparently died last month at 87. I think this should be reflected in Deceased Wikipedians to give him a more proper tribute. --Thebirdlover (talk) 05:49, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually now that I think about it, I'm not sure if you can't add to the Deceased Wikipedian page if the dead person don't have a specific number of edits. If you have that standard, he may not qualify as he has less than 500 edits. --Thebirdlover (talk) 06:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I just did an edit count, and this editor made less than 100 edits, so s/he's unlikely to be listed on WP:Deceased Wikipedians. However, I'll still make a request for full protection on the WP:RFPP page. Minima© (talk) 09:12, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Claude A. R. Kagan requires both recognition for his contributions to wikipedia and a biography article. A careful look shows that this pioneer of computing provides a valuable study of accessibility to the project. Please compose some text suitable for the page if you can, I'd like to help include it. Penyulap ☏ 15:56, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I would love to, but I'm not really good at writing Misplaced Pages articles correctly. I only really go into the articles for minor edits and to prevent vandalism. --Thebirdlover (talk) 19:48, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Woodlands (Columbia, South Carolina)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Found while stub-sorting this had just one bland sentence so I prodded it as "unreferenced, no evidence of notability", but looking at the page history it was created as vandalism/hoax/totally unencyclopedic (initial content: "The Woodlands of Columbia is an apartment complex in Columbia, SC(Richland County). It's a student living styled apartment with many amenities. The Woodlands has been made famous through the residents of building 12's back corner. Through there outrageous parties, beautiful women, and obvious good looks just all around, they have been held responsible for making many people's dreams come true. These residents have been compared to greasers, authority figures, and even gods to many!")

Short of waiting a week for the PROD, is there any way to get rid of this rubbish and deny its authors the satisfaction of seeing it stay around for so long? PamD 07:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes. WP:G3. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 08:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Because its current incarnation was so bland I worried that if I just slapped that CSD-G3 on it myself it might get un-speedied. PamD 08:12, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Blatant canvassing at AFD

User:Pbmaise blatantly canvassaed at http://www.dailykos.com/blog/pbmaise (apologies you have to scroll almost the whole page) to get users to keep an article he created up for deletion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mitt Romney Cranbrook incident Hot Stop 08:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm really glad to know that Misplaced Pages is being accused of both right-wing and left-wing censorship. If you can't please all sides in politics, the next best thing is to please no one. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:10, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I believe that's actually meatpuppetry, not canvassing, since it occured off-wiki, although the result is the same in the end. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:33, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:West_Eddy at Jeyvier Cintrón

Ok, a couple of hours ago I created articles for two boxers that just finished qualifying for the 2008 Summer Olympics, Jantony Ortíz and Cintrón. I specifically asked to be allowed to add refernces latter in the edit summary creating them, because it was 2:00 a.m. over here. That was ignored and Cintrón's was quickly tagged. I removed the notice to comment that I was going to add a reference. But upon returning with the reference, Eddy had added a second tag, requesting "speedy deletion" because it was a "hoax". I added the reference, removed the "speedy" tag and told him to brouse AIBA's website, which has been covering the qualification all week long. But he quickly undid it, without any coment. I responded by adding several more sources to certify that he is indeed real, removing the tag again since it had been proven to be unwarranted. The user has just logged out and tagged it again, despite the additional sources. I will grant him that the first offical AIBA reference is not rendering well, only the title is seen now for some reason, but it was when I added it and he didn't mention it until the additional ones were added, including a second source stating that he qualified for the Olympics. The refernces are in Spanish, but they clearly state Cintrón's name and the boxers that he defeated and are both from reliable sources, including El Nuevo Día.

I initially considered talking it with him, but he kept trolling my talk page with templates and seems to have a history with "owning" articles and I have no interest in keeping the circles going. El Alternativo (talk) 08:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No real opinion on this, but in future try using the sandbox until you are sure your article is ready. I write a lot of articles and these days I always work them into un-speedy-deletable shape before posting them in the main space.  Tigerboy1966  09:14, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I do have a "work page" of sorts. But in this particular I tought "it's late, I can add the refernces tommorow and expand later (as explained in the first summary) there's no way that they will delete it since being an Olympian is automatic notability". For the record, I am usually very mechanic in my editing pattern, first publish some "bones", establish notability in the lead, etc. then take some time adding content and "flesh". That pattern can be seen in all of my articles, the latest one being Josian Santiago. Had I not been met by a "speedy" tag in my talk page, I would have returned tommorow to add the references and an infobox as usual. It was incredibly rude of him to tag it without allowing me a break after knowing that the references were coming. Then continuing to do so without explain why after some refs were actually added. He seems to be trolling me and logging out is a sign that he is willing to continue doing so. I am done editing the article until this is resolved. But I can continue to look for refs, including the actual tournament bracket if allowed to do it without a deletion tag randomly appearing. El Alternativo (talk) 09:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Um, well, they actually are not yet Olympians - and won't be until they compete. As such, it's still kinda WP:CRYSTAL IMHO. BTW ... in your opening paragraph, I think you meant 2012 Olympics. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:48, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, they classified to the upcoming games, it's late and I am really tired, so my bad. In any case, being national champions and international gold medallists should establish some notability, at least enough for them not to qualify for the "speedy" deletion. Furthermore, the user was blocked and placed on some sort of probation (I guess?) since in his talk page there is a template that says: "User agrees to not edit war and a topic-ban on Ken McGowan", which is the reason why I tried to ignore his trolling of my own talk page. He has been "free" for less than a week and is already trolling around. El Alternativo (talk) 09:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

The article that was not rendering well is back online in AIBA's page () with the details in English. El Alternativo (talk) 10:02, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

A fine mess.

This should have been discussed here: Talk:Jeyvier Cintrón

Creators are not to remove CSDs talks, but rather contest the CSD putting the button, as described on the template and WP:CSD

Users Bihco and West Eddy would better serve Misplaced Pages by using actual words than just using templates.

EA needs to stop the personal attacks , . Nobody Ent 10:13, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm done talking to him. But those "attacks" were the result of being tagged without explanation on my talk page, then reverted very rudely, again without comment. Before that I told him to search AIBA's talk page, because he acussed me of being a "hoaxer", which he clearly didn't. I have done my last edit to the page for today, removing the "verifycation failed" template due to the article being restored in it's source. He did, however, put the "speedy" tag back without comment. I didn't touch it. El Alternativo (talk) 10:19, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Additionally EA apparently failed to notify West Eddy as described at the top of this page. A second year editor should show more compliance with Misplaced Pages protocols. Nobody Ent 10:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Was about to post something very similar as in Ent;s previous comment . It's very easy to push a speedy-delete-comment button and an admin will take such a comment into account in evaluating the speedy; and there is really no excuse for not trying to discuss an issue before bringing it here. I would on the other hand be interested in hearing what made West E decide this was a blatant or obvious hoax. It certainly isn't obvious to me and I therefore removed the speedy notice... L.tak (talk) 10:24, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

As far as removing the template, this is the first time that I have been tagged with the "speedy". But his reasoning was clearly off, he was (and is still) argumenting that I invented Cintrón as a "hoax". He is not even trying to debate the boxer's notability. I did visit his talk page, but wasn't about to try and fight with a user with several blocks on his resume. And I did warn him that I would bring it here in two edit summaries, which he must have seen to tag me twice after that. El Alternativo (talk) 10:33, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit summaries are NEVER the place to have a discussion. They are to explain the nature of the edit. You may not remove CSD tags from articles you wrote, period (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I will not do it in future instances. This time I used that way because he was undoing my edits, figured that he would see that since he wasn't trying to actually talk to me in my talk page, just adding tags. However, I wasn't reverting to the same revision, because despite not being used to this kind of back and forths, I did read the reverting rule back in 2010. I added reference and removed the template, but didn't go back to it in fear of getting myself blocked for something that seemed random. El Alternativo (talk) 10:56, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Here's the best pieces of advice for the future:

1. create drafts of articles that are fully compliant before moving into articlespace
2. do not communicate via edit summaries
3. do not remove CSD tags from articles you create yourself
4. WP:BLP's must be properly sourced before being live articles
5. always try to resolve issue directly with the other editor before coming here

Cheers (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:58, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Just for laughs vandalism

I caught a couple of minor changes made over a few days recently. Reverted them, but I don't think anyone is watching this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.72.108 (talk • contribs)

There are only 3,947,805 articles, and fewer than 30 currently watching that one - I can guarantee, however, that it is being watched - your help is appreciated (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

It has 17 watchers, 9 of them active in the last month. Although this isn't really an ANI matter. Help still appreciated though. Equazcion 11:58, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Personal attack/vandalism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Someone please block user:KDOG97111 for this. CU would be appreciated as User:Bented123 just made an identical edit.Ankh.Morpork 12:31, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Also his buddy user:Bented123‎ Ankh already noted it. Zad68 12:37, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Both now blocked indef by yours truly. Bencherlite 12:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Cheers, mate! Zad68 12:42, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Churning at Names of Vietnam

There has been churning at Names of Vietnam for several years, beginning in October 2009. One account adds "Peopledom of Vietnam," and another takes it off. It has gotten quite active lately. Neither account does legitimate editing. They go from one article to another doing minor vandalism. See here and here. Kauffner (talk) 12:55, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Well the one who add that name be ban forever in vi wiki by same action. Because that name never be user in history of Vietnam anyway. And one thing that one use many username to do so in vi wiki so we lock off that paper, I think if you interested in this may be you can tell sysop to lock that paper too and of course since you at it can you lock this paper as well be cause the same person try to add the non exist party to it in both vi zh and en wiki and result is he be ban all from there. Sorry if my english it bad.Tnt1984 (talk) 15:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Pesoguin (he's back!)

This article was speedy-deleted some time last week by Guerillero. I notice that the article has since been re-created. It's not quite identical to the previous version - this time it seems to be more blatantly advertising the home-pages associated with this meme. --Salimfadhley (talk) 16:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps a little "salt" on its tail might help. MarnetteD | Talk 17:06, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Admins are pretty good about reading the talk page of the article when you tag it with a speedy delete tag. Likely, it would be better if you expressed any concerns, or requests for SALTing there, rather than here at ANI. I've had good luck in the past with this method when it was appropriate, and this certainly may be. Still, nothing for us to do here at ANI, as far as I can tell. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:23, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

DB, I'm not familiar with the jargon. What do you mean by 'salt' in this context? Thanks. --Salimfadhley (talk) 19:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

It means to 'protect' the article so it cannot be recreated. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 19:31, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

It comes from Salting the earth, ie: to fix it so nothing will ever grow there again. The blank article is protected so that no one can create an article with that same name without an admin "unsalting" it first. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

See WP:SALT. Nyttend (talk) 19:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Talk page content removal

In reference to the above thread on User:RhymeNero, please see if this was out of line. I'm blocking the IP; I don't know if it's an open proxy or something fancy like that. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 17:30, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Obvious troll, so removing it from regular view by either collapsing or removing entirely seems perfectly appropriate to me. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC) bumping you down for visibility, as you appear to be correct.

• On that topic, perhaps someone knows who Liopaiopsm (talk · contribs) is. CU? Drmies (talk) 17:34, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Andrew Nikolić

I might as well report myself - In this BLP - Andrew Nikolić - I am trying to present a NPOV addition after a complaint at the BLP noticeboard. I am over 3RR and if users keep removing without good reason I am going to keep replacing this supportive comment to this BLP. Its a cited supportive comment from the President of the Liberal Party - Can the Admin that blocks me please explain the policy reason for the cited content removal. Thanks - Youreallycan 17:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• An admin who blocks you or your counterpart is, as you well know, under no obligation to explain why the other's edit is better than yours. You're both over the line, you should both be blocked. Or you can both start acting like adults. Drmies (talk) 17:53, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• As sympathetic as I am with YRC's view on the substance of the dispute, the conduct on the Nikolic Talk page is way out of line (accusations of libel, sock puppetry, etc.), and, not surprisingly, very little real progress is being made on the dispute. The irony of creating section headers called "Back on topic" and then quickly regressing into the sniping is stark.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:58, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Please do note the statement above: "if users keep removing without good reason I am going to keep replacing this supportive comment to this BLP" -- it couldn't possibly be clearer that this editor intends to continue edit-warring. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Bah, Nomo., you're a provocateur who racks up warnings and blocks like notches on his belt or her purse strap, and the worst example of Jimbo Wales' fear that it was going to be Usenet. Have you ever created anything of value for the project at all? Colton Cosmic (talk) 21:01, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, in our articles about living people neutral reporting should be a priority. The removal of this supportive comment avoids that, as such its removal is imo a BLP violation if you have a good reason for its removal I will stop attempting to replace it. - Youreallycan 18:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Is the statement supported by the reference it precedes? If so, then there needs to be a good reason for removing it. If not, then it's "hijacking" the existing reference in order to make it look referenced, it's an unreferenced statement in a BLP, and either way you're declaring your intent to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point. Also, WP:BLP does not require neutral reporting. It requires that reliable sources must be present to verify any and all controversial or potentially defamatory material, neutrality has nothing to do with it. If the only reliable sources on a BLP are negative, then trying to make the article "neutral" is itself a BLP policy violation. Given that everyone who supports you every time you come up at AN/I points out your stellar contributions in the BLP area as an example of your benefit to the project, you should absolutely know this. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• I've blocked both Youreallycan (talk · contribs) and pdfpdf (talk · contribs) for 72 hours, thanks to this edit-war. Moreschi (talk) 19:03, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No warning to either? Colton Cosmic (talk) 20:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• Where is this self-destructiveness coming from? I mean, he's threatening to sock at this point. :/ Silverseren 19:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
  • It might be advisable to fully-protect his talk page before he talks himself into serious trouble. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think it's a bit late for that.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

• *facepalms* A bit late, yeah. Silverseren 20:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Sven Manguard on The Amazing Race related pages

For some time (the past few years at least), I have been working on the articles for the American (turned international) television program The Amazing Race. After the airing of each episode, I search the Commons or Flickr for free images that could be used in the sections/episode summaries of each article, usually depicting locations visited and rarely being similar to tasks performed. On two occasions, I decided I could not find anything free on either website to accurately depict some of the events in the episode and I took a promotional photo that the production team uploads to their website and include that as the only non-free image (excepting the title card in the main infobox) in the article. This has never been an issue until now.

Sometime last week, Sven Manguard (talk · contribs) decided to orphan an image I uploaded to depict an event that took place during The Amazing Race 19 program, claiming "This is no place for a non-free file". I did not discover this until Friday when one of the "Your non-free image has been orphaned" bots notified me on my talk page. I replaced it (another user had put an unrelated free image in its place after discovering the promotional photo had disappeared) and raised the issue on Sven's talk page. He responded, citing WP:NFCC#8, and proceeded to orphan the photo again and then listed the photo on FFD (I unorphaned the photo as it should not have been orphaned mid-FFD as far as I am aware). This was all on Friday.

Today, I discovered that Sven had decided to start FFDs for the other four non-free images being used on Amazing Race pages and orphaned two other promotional photos citing NFCC 8 because there are free images showing locations and simple activities related to the actions in the program on the 20 season pages. This is getting unnecessarily disruptive at this stage as it appears he has decided that this entire range of articles should not be allowed to have non-free images at all, except for the title card. They are seven non-free images (three of which depict the season's winners at the finish line, which arguably are not necessary) amongst around 300 free images throughout the 20 or so pages, and his argument is that some other free image exists to depict an event in the show or represent that particular episode, when there is clearly no free alternative to contestants in the act of performing a unique task that is not reproducable. Again, Sven's actions are extremely disruptive and he is stretching the definition of WP:NFCC#8 to say that these few photos are not allowed.—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:03, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree that something's definitely wrong with Sven here, as I also feel that he is disrupting Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I think Sven has made a good faith deletion nomination on the photo. (Whether it actually meets or fails NFCC is a topic for the FfD discussion) As for whether the photo should be orphaned on nomination, is there any policy or guideline that specifies whether the image should be left in pending deletion discussion on NFCC grounds? Monty₈₄₅ 20:24, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

It's not just one photo. It's a whole series of them that Sven has decided should not be allowed because there are free images to allude to events. Even if the one of the contestant going into the cave is not the best, he said that this more specific one of the task in the cave being performed I suggested as a possible replacement should not be allowed as an alternative either. With his actions today it is clear he thinks no fair use images are to be allowed on these pages, because free ones have been sought out for the other 250 episodes.—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

How important is that to understanding the topic of the Amazing race really? I mean, would the reader come away from the article with a substantial gap in their understanding of what the race was? I would say not, sure it provides a vivid graphical illustration, but it is not necessary to understand the topic. Monty₈₄₅ 20:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

It provides more understanding than just a photo of a location they happened to have visited in that episode, that's for sure. Using an example from one of the photos he put up for deletion today, we can't say "they drank from thousands of cups of tea" and just have a photo of the building it happened in.—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:41, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but NFCC requires more then just a better understanding the image qualifies if it would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. I think that is intended to be a high threshold. Monty₈₄₅ 20:49, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

To some extent, Sven is right. NFCC#1, replacability, does not care if a free image currently exists as long as one most likely can exist, and ergo a non-free image as a substitute is not allowed. Unless said countries have no freedom of panoroma that would prevent free images from being taken, the use of non-frees to depict a leg in the show is improper.

This is not excusing his method (removing a file to claim it orphaned, rather than FFD'ing the image to get consensus before removal) of achieving this. --MASEM (t) 20:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I am astonished to see you support the legend that "removing a file to claim it orphaned" is somehow illegitimate. If you see a non-free file in an article that shouldn't be there, removing it is the obvious first response per WP:BOLD and WP:SOFIXIT, and subsequently tagging it as orphaned is the formally inevitable next step. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:34, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

At least the nomination I looked at declared he had orphaned it under Criteria 8, so its not like he orphaned it and then acted like he just found it that way. The underlying question though is should the image be orphaned pursuant to NFCC 8 at the time the problem is detected, or remain in the article until the deletion discussion on the underlying image concludes. Is there a specific policy on that? Monty₈₄₅ 20:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there is a single general answer to that. There are several factors involved: on the one hand, non-free media generally require consensus for inclusion, not consensus for removal, so in a case where there is a serious, reasoned objection to an image it's a reasonable expectation that an image should be left out pending consensus to the contrary. Also, as I said above, removal is always a legitimate WP:BOLD first response to an image perceived as inappropriate. On the other hand, it is sometimes practically advantageous to have the image in the article while an FFD runs, for the simple reason that it makes it easier for observers to judge its usage and the appropriateness of the FUR. Also, I think it is a demand of fair process that if an image gets orphaned immediately prior or during an FFD, its orphaned status should then not be seen as triggering automatic timed-speedy deletion concurrently with the FFD, but the FFD should be allowed to run its course. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

He orphaned it, it was replaced by a different photo, I un-orphaned it, he orphaned it, again, and then he put it up for FFD while it was orphaned for this second time.—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Unless its a straight up obvious violation that can't be fixed by any amount of editing, removal before discussion is not the way to go. You cannot claim that on NFCC#8 violation since that is absolutely subjective and can only be determined by consensus - and one that can be fixed by adding sourced text, or the like. NFCC#1 is a bit more objective, but even then, discussion before removal is better wikipractice. --MASEM (t) 20:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

What has the subjectivity of NFCC#8 got to do with anything? You don't need any more prior discussion and consensus for removing an image than for removing any other piece of content, for whatever reason. WP:BOLD applies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, WP:BRD applies, but unfortunately, after Ryulong's revert, Sven did not begin discussion (either via talk page of FFD), but he reverted again, violating BRD. This is inappropriate. Silverseren 20:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, maybe if you're randomly going through articles and you find a NFC you don't think meets the criteria, you can remove it. But if you're getting those removals reverted, re-removing is a violation of WP:BRD and the next proper step is either at the talk page or to FFD. Since Sven is doing this en masse and has been reverted a few times and on related pages, he should very well know his actions are not fully agreed to and should approaching this via talk pages. (I use past actions on people like Beta and the like in maintaining NFC as reasoning here). And yes, NFCC#8 is very subjective. While BOLD says you can remove it, if it can be fixed, there's better and less contentious routes for fixing it if you can't do it yourself. This is comparable to adding tags like cn instead of wiping out sections of text that are otherwise not contentious to an article. --MASEM (t) 20:53, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

He has not been citing NFCC#1, though. It's been NFCC#8, stating that this one non-free image does not add to the article. While he is arguably right for the three photos of teams at the finish line, and Marcus Pollard on a rope going down into a cave was probably not the best choice I could have made for non-free photos (I could not find any free photos of the cave itself on Flickr, and one can only say " was the Pit Stop for this Leg of the Race" so many times), he's been removing all non-free photos/screencaps from the articles, and only after his orphaning has been challenged is he sending everything to FFD.—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

And that is precisely the correct process. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:47, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

If he then took it to FFD immediately afterward, then yes. But reverting again is definitely wrong. Silverseren 20:54, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

So he made one (1) revert in the process. Shrug. Big deal. Why is this a matter for ANI? What would we do if people routine came here complaining about other editors once they made their first revert on something? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)