Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:02, 14 May 2012

	British Pakistanis was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result June 17, 2010 Good article nominee Not listed November 20, 2010 Peer review Reviewed January 28, 2011 Good article nominee Listed March 9, 2011 Good article reassessment Delisted Current status: Delisted good article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United Kingdom Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Pakistan Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pakistan on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PakistanWikipedia:WikiProject PakistanTemplate:WikiProject PakistanPakistan Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ethnic groups Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks: Meta-tasks: Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project. Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution: Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention Iyer Peruvian people Start an article: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks. To-do list for British Pakistanis: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2015-08-05 Clean up the References section. It currently uses bare URL's, so a {{Cite web}} template (or other if you prefer) will have to be added to each citation. Done For full list of what now needs doing in relation to this article, please refer to its review page. Done Guild of Copy Editors This article was copy edited by Pol430, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 26 December 2010.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors

Archives

1, 2

This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Template:Findnotice

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Good article status

This article has recently been granted good article status, though as has been noted, it might not meet all the criteria. Thanks to Sansonic for removing a problematic section. I've also noticed that the article layout doesn't follow the guidelines at WP:LAYOUT and will fix that now. I'm not sure whether there are other problems, but the fact that these issues were missed means there might be. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:23, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

The Media section of the article seemed to be particularly problematic in terms of grammar and formatting, so I've fixed what seemed to be the most obvious errors. There are a few statements that could do with being referenced. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:46, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

This article is full of factual errors, e. Ghulam Noon is not Pakistani but Indian. The majority of 'Indian' restaurants are not owned by Pakistanis but Bangladeshis. Two thirds of Soth Asians in the UK are not Punjabi. Thats just the tip of the inaccuracies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22Twentytwo (talk • contribs) 22:36, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

The article only states that Indian restaurants in a particular region of the UK are mostly owned by British Pakistanis and that statement is accompanied with a source from The Guardian. Two thirds of British Asians are of Punjabi descent, this statement is again accompanied with a source, remember that the term 'British Asian' includes British Indians many of whom are of Punjabi origin. This article has previously been passed as being factually verifiable and there have been no major changes to it since then. If you feel that there are any other issues which need explaining or otherwise then please do discuss here, if not we will assume that all is well. Sansonic (talk) 23:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunatley that is correct there are huge errors in this article. The main article is incorrect. The reason is that it seems to suggest that the Kashmiris are living in the North and not the south and in fact stated that the ethnic groups of pakistan that live in london are punjabis, sindhis muhajirs and pushtuns. The reality is that kashmiris in london are larger than anyone single of the above groups. Please actually visit the areas that Pakistanis live in Ilford, walthamstow, leyton, and cricklewood among others. Further please note that the south includes apart from Luton, High Wycombe, Aylesbury, chesham, Watford, Hemel Hempstead, Bedford, Peterborough, oxford, woking, maidenhead, reading and slough. Please check what the single largest ethnic group is in all of these towns and the Kashmiris will be the largest by far.

Further please also note that the Kashmiris and Punjabis amount to about 85% of pakistanis in the UK. Nearly all the Pakistanis in England hail from southern Kashmir areas around Mirpur and the punjabis from the northern districts of Jhelum, Rawalpindi, Gujarat, sialkot and Attock. They all therefore more or less come from similar backgrounds. Very few are from urban areas like Lahore or Multan.

There is no evidence that the people from southern kashmir are more conservative or less educated than those from other areas. Please note that the southern universities have large amounts of Kashmiris as has already been explained. The reason that the author in the article said that the kashmiris are in northern universities was based on his wrong information about the north and south. This has already been clarified. Further the ward with the highest propertion of pakistanis in the UK is pendle in lancashire ( 77%) and it is about 90% punjabi. The errors continue unabated in this article. There is no reference to valuable statistical evidence but instead anecdotal evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jat punyal (talk • contribs) 14:23, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Simply visiting an area of London is not enough because we need sources to prove your point. The fact that Punjabis are from Jhelum, Rawalpindi, Gujarat and sialkot is reflected in the article and the fact that many are from irrigated farms is also reflected in the article. Sources from the BBC and the New Statesman confirm that the Mirpur area (of Kashmir) is more conservative than some other parts of Pakistan. Your claims of Kashmiri students in universities of a particular area would need sources if it were to be included in the article, the article does not claim that Kashmiris are only in the north of England. Your claims of Pendle having the highest proportion of Pakistanis is interesting and could be included if you give a link to a source. The article is well sourced with reliable broadsheet newspaper and academic references. If you feel that there are any other issues which need explaining or otherwise then please do discuss here, if not we will assume that all is well. Sansonic (talk) 23:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Mango

I don't see the relevance of the mango material. That some shops stock mangoes made in Pakistan doesn't seem particularly interesting/relevant. The article is about Pakistanis in the UK, not products made in Pakistan. Selfridges and Harrods aren't British Pakistani organisations. The picture of the mango is also confusing. It's just a picture of a standard mango, not even of one made in Pakistan (would be hard to tell the difference anyway). Christopher Connor (talk) 22:12, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I think that it is an interesting bit of information. I also think that it is relevent because there it mentions that these mangos were previously only stocked and sold at British Asian wholesale outlets (to cater exclusivly for a British Asian market). But that now tastes/preferences previously only consumed by British Asians are now consumed by a more holistic British market, fits in with the section with is about Economics/Business. The picture is good representation of a simple mango, though it could very easily be changed to that of a Pakistani mango, if that seems more reasonable.--Sansonic (talk) 15:35, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The sources for Harrods and Selfridges don't even mention British Pakistanis, so it may be OR to decide it's relevant here. It's like writing in the British Chinese article that soy sauce imported from Hong Kong is sold in Sainsbury's: it's simply irrelevant to the article. The most we can say really is that British Asian shops stock mangoes sold in Pakistan. Christopher Connor (talk) 16:09, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I would like to establish a consensus, comments from other editors would be welcomed.--Sansonic (talk) 17:44, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Lords

"Cameron also appointed Lord Ahmed, a Kashmiri born politician, a life peerage, which made Ahmed the first Pakistani peer in the UK."

Totally false. It was Lord Ahmad of Rotheram appointed by Labour years ago who was first Pakistani peer. Recently (2010) Cameron has appointment Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon who is a different person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.195.12 (talk) 00:02, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Your claims would need a source. Sansonic (talk) 19:18, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The IP appears to be correct. According to this source, Nazir Ahmad was born in Pakistan and made a peer in 1998. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Kashmiris

"Many Kashmiris have named their businesses after the Pakistani region. One of the largest companies incorporating such a name is Kashmir Crown Bakeries, which is a food making business in Bradford. The company is a major local employer and is the largest Asian food manufacturer in Europe. The owner, Mohammed Saleem, claims that combining traditional Kashmiri baking methods with vocational British training has given his baking business a multi-million pound turnover."

This paragraph strikes me as being little more than a thinly disguised advertisement for Mr Saleem and his bakery. As such I would suggest it has no place in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jps 1001 (talk • contribs) 15:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Typo in 4.1 Kashmiris

{{Edit semi-protected}}

Assuming in paragraph two, "was dominated by rigid hierarchies. Economis boom brought dramatic" the word "Economis" should be altered to "Economic". NoelyNoel (talk) 22:54, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done, thank you for pointing this out--Jac16888 23:17, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Blatant pov pushing child grooming

This incident involving a gang of british pakistanis does not deserve mention unless other incidences are mentioned about other communitys this is basically cherry picking of events and an obvious pov push Spacech45 (talk) 14:15, 9 May 2012 (UTC)This account has been blocked as a sockpuppet of Nangerbat Darkness Shines (talk) 16:33, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with this. I especially find the long quoting of one POV in the source article without reference to police opinions on the matter baffling. Henrik.karlstrom (talk) 14:32, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that these events did involve a lot of cherry picking.Ankh.Morpork 14:41, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

That's cute. However, the more I think about it the less I think this section belongs in a general article on a large population. Here it seems to be implying that pedophilia is somehow something to do with their ethnic background, which is a pretty strong claim to make in a supposedly NPOV article. Notice that the Belgium page does not feature a subsection on the innate pedophilia of Belgians, to name one example. The incident already has its own wiki entry, and that should be enough. I say we take this section out. Henrik.karlstrom (talk) 14:56, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I know where this is coming from its got nothing to do with concerns for crimes or whatever its basically a few pov pushers with a dislike of certain people in reality there have been gangs of rapists from Romania, Africa and other places but there is no mention blatant pov 86.178.30.102 (talk) 15:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)Nangparbat sock Ankh.Morpork 20:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

this sort of information belongs to pages like Human trafficking in the United Kingdom or Slavery in Britain and Ireland. however, user ankhmorpork is hellbent on adding this content not only to this page but others as well (check out his edit history), and thus reveals his agenda. there are several pages about racial groups on wikipedia and none of them contain such content. for example, millions of such crimes are comitted in the usa every year but not one of them are mentioned here . this is blatant pov-pushing, and should be deleted.-- altetendekrabbe  15:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

These crimes have been commented on by several sources as directly affecting the British Pakistani community. Comment on content, not the editor per WP:NPAAnkh.Morpork 15:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Here I agree with AnkhMorpork, let's keep this civil. But I still don't see why this section belongs on this page. It creates the false impression that single instances of crime somehow reflect upon the larger group, a logic which only seems to apply in the case of this specific group of immigrants. This goes against the NPOV policy of Misplaced Pages. We're not talking about removing all references to the child grooming issue, as it already has its own entry. Even if you can find sources that say that this reflects badly upon Pakistanis in Britain (which is probably true), that doesn't make this a general controversy regarding the continued existence of Pakistani immigrants in Britain, and that is why this section should be removed. Henrik.karlstrom (talk) 17:01, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

The insertion does not refer to "single instances of crime". The impact of these events and their effect on the Pakistani community has been commented upon by sources, including a BBC documentary that investigated the grooming of young girls for sex by Pakistani men in the UK.Ankh.Morpork 17:05, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Ankh on this, there was a massive backlash in the UK after this case. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

If that is the case, then the paragraph should be rephrased to reflect the backlash, as that is what is pertinent to the main article. Also, I see that on the wiki page for the Rochdale sex trafficking gang, the "concerns" section has been marked with a weasel tag. I don't think this paragraph should be restored until it is rewritten to reflect how this case has caused a massive backlash, and sourced correctly.Henrik.karlstrom (talk) 17:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

It is not just that though is it? "in the recent scandal regarding two Asian men found guilty of grooming young girls for sex, and then abusing them. The local MP, Jack Straw, said that it was “a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men”" Thought Paralysis: The Virtues of Discrimination "Agencies have identified a long term pattern of offending by gangs of men, predominately from the British Pakistani community, who have befriended and abused hundreds of vulnerable girls aged 11 to 16" The Terrorist Next Door Darkness Shines (talk) 18:11, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't think these last changes cut it. The source of the first claim, Erick Stakelbeck, cannot be called neutral by any definition of the word. He is a known anti-Muslim agitator with no formal training in cases of terrorism and Muslim immigration (I believe he used to be a sports reporter) and also subscribes to bizarre views such as fearing that Muslims will attack the U.S. with electro-magnetic pulse weapons. He has also said he thinks George Bush jr. was a coward because he did not declare war on Islam after 9/11. The second source not only contradicts its own title later in the article (most UK child abusers are in fact whites, even if Asians are overrepresented), but the Times article that is referenced is not a news article but an opinion piece. It even states unequivocally "Of course, most British Pakistanis are not in a CSE network." So why does this issue deserve its own subsection on this page? I still think it should be left out completely until someone comes up with a well-sourced argument for why some sex offenders should be connected to the larger population of British Pakistanis (and I suspect that this is the reason we don't see similar entries on the main pages for Belgium or Austria) Henrik.karlstrom (talk) 20:18, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

::::: Then with your logic every page should mention the crimes of certain people like say american jews? British africans? etc its totally pov to single out one community while ignoring others maybe an article on europeans travelling to thailand for "holidays" with kids and mention what part of europe they come from ? Spacech45 (talk) 15:28, 9 May 2012 (UTC)This account has been blocked as a sockpuppet of Nangerbat Darkness Shines (talk) 16:33, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Could someone explain to me why relevant and sourced information is removed from the article?--Shrike (talk) 17:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

no consensus. take it to the npov-noticeboard and you'll see what happens.-- altetendekrabbe  17:42, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Who don't agree except of you?And why do you object there are plenty WP:RS that make the connection--Shrike (talk) 17:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

i disagree. that is sufficient. let's take this to dispute resolution.-- altetendekrabbe  17:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No its not, majority of users agree, you may take it of course to any relevant board if you wish of course--Shrike (talk) 18:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

i am taking this to dispute resolution.-- altetendekrabbe  18:03, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

What are you thinking? A few news articles on a recent group of crimes are nowhere near sufficient for attributing substantial criminal behaviour to a group of approximately 1.2 million people with a history of four centuries. Remember WP:RECENT — we write to reflect what the majority of sources study throughout time, not to give the latest tidbits of information. Wait until books (from strong publishers, not something like "Karnac Books") or other academic work is published on this subject, and only reintroduce it if those publications attribute a close connection between the crimes and the British Pakistani community as a whole. Nyttend (talk) 13:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

i totally agree with you, nyttend. this highly contentious content was forced into the article by user ankmorpork and user shrike by an edit war. i have started a discussion at the dispute resolution noticeboard here, .-- altetendekrabbe  13:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

This is POV-pushing bigotry, end of story. Shit like this doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages, and the sooner we get rid of the sort of individuals who think it does, the better. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

user ankmorpork should be banned as he is quite disruptive. what is the right venue to address his behavior?-- altetendekrabbe  15:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Why don't you concentrate on the disputed content rather than hectoring the editor with whom you are in dispute? On the bare facts he has been no more disruptive than you have been. Leaky Caldron 16:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Do not call me a bigot andy, statistically Pakistanis carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK, as is reflected in the reliable sources. Which doe snot make adding it to this article bigotry but DUE. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

"Pakistanis carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK, as is reflected in the reliable sources". Please cite a source that states this. I've not seen any. And BTW, those involved in the Rochdale case weren't 'Pakistanis', they were British citizens on Pakistani descent (apart from the one who was an Afghan refugee). AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Try 'Most UK girl child abusers are British Pakistanis' or this.Ankh.Morpork 18:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Now find a reliable source that states that "Pakistanis carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK", rather than one that makes a claim in the headline which it fails to support in the story. And are you really trying to present that source as neutral? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

as noted by user:benjamil, this all boils down to badges of shame. to quote benjamil who sarcastically wrote:

"Couldn't we add similar badges of shame on many articles on national/ethnic groups? Austrians, it seems, have a unique proclivity for private incarcerations with pedophilic/incestuous motives. Belgians are known for pedophilia and Norwegians are mass consumers of sex workers abroad, to the point that the goverment needs to regulate it"

another user noted above: "belgium page does not feature a subsection on the innate pedophilia of belgians". many europeans are involved in the disgusting thai sex trade but there is no subsection about this on the europeans-page either. user:Iloveandrea noted:"Can you imagine the reaction if someone posted something about Jews having a propensity to paedophilia, citing some right-wing Saudi website?" and what if black americans "carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks" in the us? are you going to add a subsection about that too? i don't think so. you are now maligning a whole a racial group. shame on you. -- altetendekrabbe  18:37, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

British Austrian bugger, your argument just failed. The fact remains, a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK are carried out by British Pakistanis, apologies to Andy for my missing that earlier Darkness Shines (talk) 22:27, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The 'fact remains' that you have yet to provide a source for that assertion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:33, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

For fucks sake Andy, you can only look the other way so often. Always problem with the left, everyone is a "bigot" BBCIndependent Guardian Darkness Shines (talk) 22:42, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The Independant article says nothing about 'British Pakistanis' whatsoever. The BBC source (from 2004) says nothing about 'British Pakistanis' in general, or about disproportionate levels of anything. The third source you cite states "Thus no official data exists on the ethnic or religious background of perpetrators of this form of child abuse, and local charities have stated publicly that they do not consider it a race issue. But it is worth noting that, when asked by the Times to collate its recent work according to ethnicity, Engage – based in Blackburn and one of the largest multi-agency organisations working on this issue – found that in the past year that 80% of offenders were white." You are a liar, and a bigot, and unfit to contribute to Misplaced Pages. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Andy - Sources were provided; claims of 'bias' do not invalidate sources. How about this one: "The string of convictions in cities such as Rotherham, Preston, Blackburn, Rochdale and now Derby have more often than not involved Asian men, specifically men of Pakistani origin, and mainly Muslim."Ankh.Morpork 22:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Fuck off and push your bigotry somewhere else. We don't need you here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Fuck you and the white horse you rode in on, call me a bigot once more and I will expect satisfaction you wanker. 23:02, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit protection

As similar controversial material has been added and removed several times over the last week, in response to a request at WP:RFPP, I have fully protected this article for one week as an uninvolved administrator. The intention of full protection is for contributors and interested parties to reach a consensus on this talk page through open discussion of the issues, sources and appropriate weight for this article. If discussion here, or the more structured discussion at Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#British_Pakistanis does not establish a consensus, please consider the other options available as described at WP:Dispute resolution. --Fæ (talk) 22:32, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Delisted good articles
• Former good article nominees
• Old requests for peer review
• All unassessed articles
• C-Class United Kingdom articles
• Mid-importance United Kingdom articles
• WikiProject United Kingdom articles
• C-Class Pakistan articles
• Mid-importance Pakistan articles
• WikiProject Pakistan articles
• C-Class Ethnic groups articles
• Mid-importance Ethnic groups articles
• WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists
• Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors