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/Archive 1

Books written

Could someone expand the books written section with full bibliographic details? Quark1005 (talk) 20:59, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Campaign 2010

I propose following text:

Prime Minister Gillard set the Australian federal election, 2010 at 21 August. Abbott responded to Ms Gillard’s election annoucement press conference from Brisbane, saying that, if elected, a Coalition government would: ‘‘end the waste, repay the debt, we'll stop the new taxes and we’ll stop the boats’’. The Galaxy Poll put Labor ahead of the Coalition at 52-48% two party preferred at the opening of the campaign.

It is the earliest indication we have of Abbott's campaign priorities. Timeshift, please show some good faith and discuss the proposal respectfully without allegations of 'ignorance' etc. Thanks, (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:21, 18 July 2010 (UTC).

Sorry, this is a page for Tony Abbott, not his parties election campaign, mentioning he is leader and involved in the campaign would be as far as the page should go I think. 203.35.135.136 (talk) 04:18, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Probably should list something here about the two Tony's, one scripted and another ad-lib that sometimes goes back on promises such as no new tax.118.208.41.105 (talk) 11:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Polling

We do not need 2000 characters on various state by state polling and what breakfast he had. Please revert your contribution back to the status quo and establish WP:CONSENSUS if you wish to change it as per procedure. It may be cited and correct but this demonstrates you are not yet familiar with wikipedia policy. Contributions need to be more than cited and correct. The 2000 characters of irrelevance and WP:POV must go, what was there previously was neutral, not cherry picked, and gave a clear concise view of where polling had been and where it is at. Timeshift (talk) 11:24, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

I have made further edits for brevity, as this seems to be a reasonable part of your comment. But it is not accurate nor is it in any way 'a clear concise view of where polling had been and where it is at' for us to keep a text which suggests that only one poll in 2010 indicated that Rudd-Labor was in decline in the polls. An 18% improvement in preferred PM status over 2 months is significant and relevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Observoz (talk • contribs) 12:00, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that you do not take a historical view of the polls. Abbott is getting Beazley polling, not pre-Prime Ministership polling. Liberal leader and party polling went from abysmal to not good. The coalition primary vote remains firmly where it's been sitting for a long time and let's just skip past the leader dissatisfaction ratings. Your cherry picking with emphasis, slant and tone created a POV which made the polls sound a lot better for Abbott than they are in reality, by using WP:RS to create WP:SYN. We don't need to quote various polls if they aren't telling different stories, which really, they aren't in terms of trend. It just bulks it up without any real point and loses and confuses the reader. Timeshift (talk) 12:09, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

"Historical view"! The Labor Party just replaced its leader before he'd finished even one term? It's unprecendented. Your personal analysis may well be that the "Liberal leader and party polling went from abysmal to not good", but no less than the Australian Labor Party begged to differ. I don't have to say anything more than that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Observoz (talk • contribs) 14:09, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Your assertions have what to do with the historical view of polling? Your interpretations of polling are just plain cherry picked and are weaved in to WP:SYN. My version is neutral, giving an overview rather than accentuating what angle would look best for Abbott. Timeshift (talk) 14:30, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

The Labor Party replaced a leader before his term expired because the Opposition improved its electoral polling position against the Rudd Government while Abbott was leader. This is non-contentious, simple, factual commentary about a pretty remarkable historical event. It was the judgement of the ALP and it was reported as fact in every noteworthy publication in the world. You are going to extraordinary lengths to remove a simple statement of fact. Your personsal anti-Abbott views are quite plain, but it would be great if you could set that aside and help draft a sensible, comprehensive text. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Observoz (talk • contribs) 11:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

That's a very simplistic interpretation of events. The various accounts of Rudd's downfall also discuss problems caused by his inter-personal style and concerns over Rudd's overall strategy and communication skills. The polls at the time Rudd was removed actually had the ALP in an election-winning position. Nick-D (talk) 11:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

That is your version of events, and is using WP:RS to create WP:SYN. What actually happened was confidence in Rudd in the public was lost - Rudd was losing, Abbott was not winning. One just needs to observe the other-side-independent satisfaction-dissatisfaction ratings. Abbott fails dismally here and has done so for the majority of his time as Lib leader. Rudd went from 50-40 to 40-50 in a single poll and never recovered, this coincided with the mining ad war. The other thing is your POV of making a big song and dance about Rudd being replaced. It's mentioned but no need to intertwine it everywhere as if there's some axe to grind. In westminster systems we elect MPs who choose who will lead the govt. The people do not choose the PM. And if the leader and the party are not getting on then what choice is there... the party always has the final say. But that is all an aside to polling. You are interpreting for the readers a much rosier picture of Abbott in the polls than is the real situation. All i'm doing is stating the polls without a narrative and let the readers come to their own rightful conclusions. And getting back to the historical view bit, Labor spent most of opposition around 50-50 a few either direction. There's a difference between benefitting from the end of a stratosphetically popular government, and being a genuinely wanted alternative. Timeshift (talk) 12:00, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

It was not me, but the ALP who decided the Coalition had improved its polling against Rudd (evidently there was also internal marginals polling which was worse than the public polling). Some of your edits have been improvements, but some seem deliberately obfuscatory - and you are flinging around unecessary accusations of ignorance and bias, rather than just acting in good faith to make improvements. After first trying to deny any reference to changed polling in the lead up to Rudd's replacement; you then inserted an erronneous edit saying the coalition had only had 'one' positive poll etc until finally you wrote a disengenuous line about ALP polling 55% at the start of the campaign (ignoring Galaxy). The line 'the pm declined in popularity and the coalition improved it's poll position to beat labor in May for the first time in 4 years' was perfectly factual, sourced and innocuous. Your line that both leaders 'developed' net negative ratings is also disengenous, as you know full well that Rudd collapses, while Abbott generally improved. As for your personal analysis that Labor was in no trouble in June 2010, that needs to be emailed to Bill Shorten and Julia Gillard - not directed at me. To pinch a phrase - 'let's move forward'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Observoz (talk • contribs) 13:42, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

The current text using opinion polling is confusing and uninformative, it should be removed completely. The original point of the paragraph was to give some coverage of the opinion that Abbott's performance as opposition leader led to Rudd's ousting. I think the middle ground is to ditch the opinion polling crap (which attempts to "prove" Abbott caused Rudd's slide in popularity) and simply cover the fact that the opinion exists that Abbott contributed to Rudd's downfall. Perhaps Abbott's quotation of Howard's comments about securing Rudd's scalp would be a better way to cover this. I think the opinion that Abbott contributed towards Rudd's ousting is a mainstream view that deserves to be in the article as per WP:POV. Abbott definitely had a role in Rudd's downfall, we should cover that role in clear language. --Surturz (talk) 00:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

What level of contribution did Abbott have? Can you provide more detail? I'd find it pretty hard to believe you at this point considering Abbott had a very firm net negative satisfaction-dissatisfaction rating, something that's only gotten worse, not better. Timeshift (talk) 01:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. We are never going to get any consensus on how much, if at all, Abbott actually contributed to Rudd's downfall. However, Abbott himself, and also presumably Howard, have claimed some credit. We can quite easily cover that assertion in a WP:V, WP:NPOV manner - we just say that (Abbott, Howard, the pundits, whomever) believe Abbott played a role. We don't need to say the opinion is true, just acknowledge the existence of the opinion. Rudd's downfall is notable and related in its own right and should be mentioned in this article anyway.

Arguing over opinion polling on this topic is not going to lead us anywhere useful, it's just WP:OR. I'm suggesting text like

"On (date) Rudd resigned because (Gillard had the numbers blah blah); Abbott later revealed that Howard congratulated him by phone, expressing the opinion that Abbott's performance as Opposition leader had contributed to Rudd's downfall."

(ugh Howard-o-meter +1 :-P ) --Surturz (talk) 01:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

And why did they publicise that individual phone call? Propaganda. It's best not to give readers judgements based on opinions, but rather where polling was at when it happened without POV. Polling on it's own without a narrative let's the reader make their own judgement. Timeshift (talk) 02:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Surturz, you are quite right, but unfortunately Timeshift is attempting to enforce a personal partisan analysis that has turned the text into a clumsy and confusing paragrapgh. He wants to delete any clear, comprehensible reference to a decline in Rudd's polling following Abbott's leadership because he is worried it 'constructs a positive text for Abbott' (ie he is being flagrantly partisan and ahistorical). So let's not offer him the option of deleting the paragraph altogether! Timeshift, here are some basic uncontentious starter points for how Abbott contributed to Rudd's downfall: Abbott withdrew support for the CPRS and called it a great big new tax (Rudd retreated causing damage in the polls and Abbott ran an 'all talk, no action' critique of Rudd;); Abbott attacked over the Insulation program; Abbott campaigned vehemently against the Super Profits Tax and called it a great big new tax (Rudd could not retreat because he had retreated on the CPRS and was being critiqued by Abbott as 'all talk, no action') etc etc. Basic stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Observoz (talk • contribs) 02:21, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Observoz that is clear point of view and unacceptable. You are supporting adding a narrative and cherry picking opinion polls. I don't. That is why you fail. Timeshift (talk) 02:33, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Timeshift, and presumably your comments that 'Rudd was losing, Abbott was not winning' is not an example of a point of view? I provided my comments above for the purposes of background discussion. They may be almost universally advocated in the Australian analytical media, but they are nevertheless not my proposals for the article entry, for which I have only ever proposed basic reference to decline in Rudd's polling coinciding with Abbott's leadership. It is not cherry picking to mention some polling placing an Opposition in an election winning position for the first time in four years immediately prior to the replacement of a government leader. It is mentioning that an opposition was in an election winning position in some polling for the first time in four years immediately prior to the replacement of a government leader. Its about as POV narrative as saying: Bob Hawke was elected to office in 1983. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Observoz (talk • contribs) 02:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Absolute rubbish. And my comments/POV are intented for the talk page only, you want to add yours to the article. Your (incorrect) narrative that you attach to the polling is laughable. Timeshift (talk) 02:56, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Timeshift, your arguments are not improved by dishonesty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Observoz (talk • contribs) 03:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

(outdent)(edit conflict x2) Timeshift9, you can't have it both ways. Either

1. the opinion that Abbott played a role in Rudd's demise is worth including, and we state that opinion clearly, or
2. it isn't worth including therefore we don't include it.

What you want to do is put in opinion poll data and Rudd's demise next to each other and "let the reader decide". This is a textbook WP:SYN violation, and confusing to boot - we aren't actually presenting any knowledge to the reader, just raw data. I challenge the very concept that opinion poll data "proves", one way or the other, whether Abbott had a role in Rudd's resignation. Opinion polls are the smoke, not the fire: we should be looking at the actions of the players e.g. Abbott changing coalition policy to vote down the CPRS, which led to Rudd's backflip on the CPRS, and so on.

If we are going to say anything about Rudd's demise and Gillard's ascension, it should be along these lines, not meaningless, context-free opinion poll data.

I'm going to remove the para for the moment, hopefully we can agree to nut out some worthy text here before restoring coverage of Rudd's resignation. --Surturz (talk) 03:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I only wanted to mention polling, the Rudd/Abbott stuff was insisted by others so I was trying to work toward a compromise. Using polling to push a Liberal-POV narrative within the article itself is not and will not be accepted. And FYI, I agree with Surturz recent edit which removes the narrative. It simply says what the three opening 2PPs were and that Abbott's approval continues to drop (both without a narrative, or POV). Timeshift (talk) 03:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Check the record, Surturz, that is not what Timeshift attempted to do, he rather initially tried to delete any reference to polling, then wrote confusing or misleading or incorrect edits about poll positions in an apparent effort to avoid two points being included which give a basic background to the extraordinary Rudd replacement: in 2010 Rudd's personal rating 'declined' (the most uncontentious point of all); and Coalition polling 'improved' because from such basic historical points he imputes a 'pro-Abbott narrative'. The only useful edit he made was to insert that Abbott's satisfaction was net-negative, but he clouded the issue by deleting reference to Rudd's decline. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Observoz (talk • contribs) 03:37, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

You have strange recollections Observoz... I deleted cherry picking of polling, I did not delete polling period. I also removed or amended the pro-Abbott POV that was weaved in to it but I prefer just the polls rather than a (especially one of your) narratives. Timeshift (talk) 03:51, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Timeshift, how is saying Rudd's polling declined an example of 'POV narrative' while saying the '2PP narrowed' is not?? How is saying an opposition got some positive polling for the first time in FOUR YEARS 'irrelevant cherry picking narrative', but declaring labor on at '55% at the start of the campaign' (ignoring galaxy) is not? ENOUGH! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Observoz (talk • contribs) 04:56, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Observoz, you still haven't learnt how to sign your comments, so I don't expect you to be familiar with how things should be on wikipedia. Don't you get it? The 2PP narrowed is neutral. To say Rudd Labor's polling declined or Abbott Liberals' polling improved is a less neutral way to say it as it puts the attention on one rather than both. The former doesn't mention either side of politics, while expresses the same thing - a far superior wording. The next bit you query is the way it was phrased which was the issue, you're stressing a particular point to reach a POV... it shows in your post - you refer to the polling as positive for the opposition... wouldn't it rather be negative for the government? Rudd's satisfaction went from solid net positive to solid net negative in one poll, when the mining tax ad war began. Abbott's satisfaction was already net negative. If it was the opposition that was improving rather than the government declining, wouldn't Abbott be getting closer to the personal polls Rudd got in 2007 rather than the Beazley sort of polling Abbott is getting? And though the 2PP has moved, why hasn't the coalition primary vote risen in 4 years? This is of course not related to the article but rather showing you how you are knowingly or otherwise implementing a POV, it's very deceitful to say the opposition is improving rather than the government is/was faltering, which is why if references to one or both sides can be removed, such as using "the 2PP levelled out", it assists with NPOV. On your third point, to declare what the current 2PP polling is (with the right neutral wording) at the start of an election campaign is not POV. I suggest you think long and hard about your responses and what you think is appropriate on wikipedia before you continue. Timeshift (talk) 06:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Aside from this, it's all being overplayed anyway - Tony Abbott's ratings were comparable with Kim Beazley (2005-2006)'s as opposition leader for pretty much the entire time he's been in, whilst Kevin Rudd's fell to a level which on past experience (Hawke, Keating, Howard) was not terminally low, but compared to the record-breaking heights of the previous two years, were comparatively low. At a similar time in the 1996-1998 election cycle, ALP (the then opposition) was on 43% with 50% 2PP, Howard (PM) had a net dissatisfaction of -1 (45-46), Beazley (OL) had higher ratings than Howard (48-37), and Howard was better PM 42% to Beazley's 37%. Let's not engage in recentism, the present can sometimes look more historic than it really is because of 24 hour media coverage (to give a parallel example, when was the last time one didn't hear a State election being described the day before it as "historic"?) Orderinchaos 18:28, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) Guys, give it a rest. You are both just using WP:OR interpretations of opinion poll data to make your arguments. How about googling a bit and finding some WP:RS on the issue? --Surturz (talk) 06:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm with Surturz. If interpreting the polls is that complex, and different "reliable" polls give such different results, even on the same day, there is little point in such detailed reporting on them here. HiLo48 (talk) 20:45, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm the one trying to remove Observoz' narrative from the polling... my WP:OR is allowed on talk pages ;) Timeshift (talk) 00:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I think this is a general problem for auspol articles, I'd love everyone's feedback at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australian_politics#Use_of_opinion_poll_data

--Surturz (talk) 00:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

(My keyboard didn't have the signoff chracters, Timeshift. Get over it.). Everybody else, Timeshift is not trying to remove 'my' narrative, he is trying to remove any reference to Rudd's decline. It's boring and its weird, but that's what it boils down to. He does not object to describing 'improvement' (or its opposite 'decline) in polls in the text, as he keeps writing in that Abbott's polls dropped etc - he only objects to informing readers that Rudd's polling declined in 2010. In other words he is trying to construct a partial account. This is not 'neutrality' this is bizarre partisanship and possibly the stupidest intervention this article has ever witnessed!Observoz (talk) 00:48, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

At the risk of breaking WP:AGF, I think it's about time you got over your absolutely claptrap nonsense Observoz. Try spending some time learning how wikipedia works rather than acting like a bull in a china shop. Timeshift (talk) 00:55, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Observoz, please don't take us for fools. This was a blatant example of WP:SYN - and it wasn't Timeshift who reverted you on that occasion. Orderinchaos 12:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Orderinchaos, do not accuse me of badfaith. Please try to understand why I think it is important to include reference to a decline in Rudd's personal polling in order to give an accurate account of the Australian political scene during 2010. Given the huge body of analysis that includes reference to Rudd's poll decline as a standout feature of 2010, it is improper for any editor to accuse me of bad faith; 'ignorance', 'claptrap nonsense' or any of the other uncivil remarks which Timeshift is making. The BBC included in a lead article on the subject of Rudd's replacement: "| The (Labor) party has suffered a sharp drop in support in opinion polls this year. A turn-around on a carbon trading scheme and a wrangle over a controversial mining tax led to a sharp slide in approval ratings for Mr Rudd's government"; the Chinese government's Xinhua news agency said "Dissatisfaction with Rudd has hit a record 55 percent, according to a telephone survey of 1,147 people between June 18 and 20 published in the Australian newspapers this week."; the Wall Street Journal said Mr. Rudd's plight would have been unthinkable a year ago, when his approval rating was well above 60%. A poll earlier this week found Labor eking out a 52% to 48% edge against the Liberal-National bloc, calculated on the basis of Australia's preferential voting system. On a straight matchup, Mr. Rudd's party was trailing 40% to 35%.; and our very own ABC said: "Mr Rudd's fall from the top has been swift, as his popularity among voters fell from stratospheric highs to disastrous lows in just a few months".Observoz (talk) 05:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Is this noteworthy?

Ref. Timeshift (talk) 00:48, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Might be if it was better written. Horridly written piece, full of opinion from people I've never heard of. You might be able to use something from Last weekend's poll shows that Labor's 42 per cent primary vote is driven by 44 per cent support from women compared with 39 per cent from men, and the Coalition's 38 per cent primary vote comprising 42 per cent support from men and only 33 per cent from women. HiLo48 (talk) 04:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

"Horridly written piece, full of opinion from people I've never heard of." <-- rather adequately (and unfortunately) describes a hell of a lot of the modern media landscape :/ Orderinchaos 10:46, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

The article appears to be based on the results of a single poll, so probably isn't safe to use until a trend can be proven (though I note that other polls have found the same sort of gender split in Abbott and Gillard's approval ratings). Nick-D (talk) 11:30, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

First, I'm glad that Timeshift9 has attempted to find good secondary refs about polling instead of straight refs to the primary poll data. Thanks. If we are going to discuss Abbott's opinion poll numbers at all, I'd like to see a balanced view ie. he polls best with... and polls worst with...

However, I personally don't think opinion polling is particularly encyclopedic content, and would prefer not to cover it at all. Genuine election results are the only polling numbers of lasting historical import. Look at the article on Bob Hawke - very little coverage of opinion polling. Hawke polled very well with women IIRC and that is not mentioned there. I would rather cover actual policies than opinion polling. It's not interesting to say that Abbott polls poorly with women. His attitudes and actions on abortion, pre-marital sex etc. are more interesting and already well covered in the article IMHO. --Surturz (talk) 01:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd rather conver it all. With the ever increasing gender vote gap between the two (see today's pollbludger), we could well see some distortion in the seat result, with seats with higher numbers of women going to Labor. But i'll leave it out as that seems to be the general consensus at the moment. Timeshift (talk) 02:00, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I find observing the demographics of the supporters of interest. If it can be well sourced, I think it can be quite encyclopaedic. This morning's ABC AM program had a discussion of the male/female difference between Abbott's and Gillard's supporters. But I don't like audio sources. Do transcripts come out of AM? HiLo48 (talk)

What would be noteworthy would be the background of the man who wants to rule us, as it were. It makes a difference what the parents did for a crust - does that require a sorry? Howard's full throttle against the unions was shaped by his parents' small business; Hawke's more overarching ideas by his father being a clergyman. Whether you grow up in the theatre, in a plumbing business or are a professor's son/daughter does have a bearing on the person and the focus/foci (?) of that person. Why has this been made a secret on this webpage? 121.209.48.254 (talk) 04:30, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Picture

Any chance we could get a better picture there? that one is small and horribly shadowed--Crasnex (talk) 00:51, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

If you can find a better FREE image, be our guest. Timeshift (talk) 00:55, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Mad Monk

"he began studying for the Catholic priesthood, and entered St Patrick's Seminary" "Due to this time in the seminary, Abbott was given the nickname "The Mad Monk"" This is not correct as its not to the fact the studied religion, but rather his extremist religious views which he would enforce in government EG Ban Stem Cell research which he is against due to his religious beliefs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.107.3 (talk) 12:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Do we have a reliable source to tell us when the term was first used, and why? HiLo48 (talk) 12:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Well the article doesnt even say "mad monk" and offcourse no reason as to why he was given this name thats not even mentioned in the article, let alone by who it was given. So according to wiki rules, That sentence should be removed fromt he article! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.213.68.40 (talk) 11:22, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

"his extremist religious views which he would enforce in government" What nonsense. He can't enforce his views or Liberal party opponents would cross the floor. (People in the Liberal Party can do that without missing out on party backing at the next election unlike the Labor party). Secondly if he attempted to "enforce" his views a leadership summit could result in his removal. (Thats the Liberal gentleman way to removal a leader, unlike Labors backstabbing). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.56.87.56 (talk) 12:59, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

One sided political views don't help, no matter which party they support. Howard did not allow much dissent at all in the party room. He DID enforce very strict control of the party room. While Abbott is not in that position at this stage, he may be in future. It's a person thing, not a party thing. As for Mad Monk, it is real. It would be good to know where the term originated. HiLo48 (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

...and someone has just told us in he article. I like that explanation. Makes a lot of sense. HiLo48 (talk) 12:15, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Gay marriage

http://aww.ninemsn.com.au/news/inthemag/1004317/abbotts-women “There is nothing wrong in the slightest, nothing at all wrong with same-sex couples wanting, I guess, to celebrate their commitment to each other. That is a good thing, not a bad thing" Isnt he against gay marriage? Being a very religious Catholic says he should be, so was this just an answer to avoid the question or he has nothing against gay marriage? Whats his stance?

This is relevant to the article - in order to make sure we've covered Abbott's views on the topic correctly. I think context is key though - do we know what else he went on to say? Contaldo80 (talk) 09:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

That source is somewhat ambiguous - I'd assume Abbott is advocating civil union, not "gay marriage". This pre-election interview on Q&A is much more explicit on this point: Abbott on Q&A, 16 August 2010--Yeti Hunter (talk) 10:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Confusing View on Abortion

The article states that he is a social conservative, but it previously quoted him as saying that abortion should be "safe, legal and rare". This quote is contradictory with other of his stances on the issue, where he makes a parallel between abortion and infanticide. My question is that if he supports legal abortion for every case or just for extreme cases.213.13.241.195 (talk) 01:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I think he was misquoted while quoting Clinton on a interview. While Clinton supports abortion without restrictions, Abbot seems to support abortion just for extreme cases. The article itself and several links that I searched seems to indicate that he doesn't support abortion legality without any restrictions, which in fact only happens in a state of Australia. We can see that by this article in 213.13.241.195 (talk) 01:57, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Safe, legal and rare is just an Abbott euphamism picked up by a wikipedian and inserted in to the article. I never liked it there myself either. As if anyone could ever say that Abbott isn't anti-abortion while holding a straight face. Timeshift (talk) 01:58, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it would be a direct contradiction of his very public position as a Catholic for him to be saying that abortion should be legal. I know he's a politician, and trying to please all people all of the time, but that just makes no sense. It's been removed now, and I'm very happy with that. HiLo48 (talk) 02:05, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

"Picked up by a wikipedian"? There's a lot of material on this site that's been added by Wikipedians, strangely enough. Fairly weak argument for POV. The article is already quite clear that Abbott is "anti abortion" - but he's not proposing making it illegal and he couldn't do it even if he wanted to. Whether this view is held genuinely or merely through political expediency, it is verifiable and a good precis of his actual views, ie, that it should be legal but rare ("extreme cases", as you put it). If a reader wants to know more (under what circumstances he believes it should be legal, etc), the rest of the paragraph goes into considerable detail and there is no confusion at all. It's pretty presumptuous to say that any view he holds differing from Vatican orthodoxy creates confusion.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 10:37, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Numerous sources for the "safe, legal, rare" quote, almost always in the context of his views being against recriminalisation.

• Tony Abbott 6/2/2006
• The Australian 9/1/2010
• News Weekly 20/3/2010
• Herald Sun 28/3/2010
• SMH 10/4/2010

And a couple more about his abortion policy, sans "rare" quote:

• Abbott pledges to make no changes to abortion law - The Australian 9/8/2010
• The Courier Mail on the same story

Merely political puff? Maybe. A "misrepresentation" of Abbott's current political views on the matter? Hardly.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 11:32, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Definately a misrepresentation of Abbott's abortion views. Readers could walk away with the wrong impression on Abbott's abortion views from this, and I for one find that a misjustice. Timeshift (talk) 22:10, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

At the risk of WP:DTTR, Misplaced Pages is not about getting justice. Look, you may be right - he may privately believe that Abortion should be illegal under almost any circumstances. He's certainly called for a drastic reduction in the numbers of abortions performed, but this is hardly equivalent for a call for recriminalisation. It would however be more accurate to put more emphasis on "rare" as Abbott did in the interview which that quote comes from; perhaps something as simple as "Abbott has said that he believes Abortion should be safe, legal but also very rare" - this would allude to some discussion of when exactly he believes it appropriate and his current political policy. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 00:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Of course Misplaced Pages is about getting justice, if one equates justice to the truth/the facts (along wikipedia guidelines). Misplaced Pages is about the facts. Timeshift (talk) 00:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."--Yeti Hunter (talk) 01:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I was making a point that you are wrong - Misplaced Pages is about (verifiable) truth, and (verifiable) truth is justice. Timeshift (talk) 01:27, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Well then please provide some reliable sources that demonstrate that the above seven reliable sources contain inaccurate information.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 01:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Come now, we both know inclusion goes far beyond what's verifiable. Timeshift (talk) 02:36, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your additional citations, Yeti Hunter. Other Editors just because a politician says that they are catholic does not mean they accept, obey or advocate everything that the Vatican city says on a political issue. We cannot work off a series of prejudiced assumptions about what makes a "catholic" or listing an inadequate series of relative abstractions like "he is a conservative". Misplaced Pages is no place for strawmen and it is not a place for prejudiced assumptions. Until we restore the text that explains Abbott's actual stated position, we are misrepresenting the facts.Observoz (talk) 05:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

And you just completely misrepresented my position. Timeshift (talk) 05:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough Timeshift - as it wasn't you who mentioned catholics, I have ammended my comment above and address to 'editors' in general. Observoz (talk) 09:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Timeshift - You're right about verifiability being but one hurdle that information must pass in order to be included. Two of the others are relevance and factual accuracy. If it can indeed be demonstrated that "safe, legal and rare" is not in fact Abbot's true view on abortion, then by all means add information to that effect. Even then, it would still be a fact that he had said it, and it would still be relevant to highlight the difference between his public and private views, or his changing views, or whatever reason exists for the difference.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 10:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

If he really weren´t pro-life then his views against steam-cell research certainly wouldn´t make any sense. I think he means that he wants to keep Australian legislation as it is, and by no means supports an legalization of abortion without any restrictions.81.193.188.7 (talk) 00:23, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

My opinon on this factor, Im pro life, and I have read a bit about Abbott and his views on abortion, Im pretty sure he is personally pro life, but either he has changed his views or contray to what he said in 2004 about abortion being a national tradgedy either he wants to just reduce the numbers, then again if he becomes Prime Minister in the future he may change his mind on it, I was disapointed to his he say he is not interested in chnaging the law as, I was pleased he replaced Malcolm Turnbull a (Pro - Choice) memember of parliament.-Gulfzero Charlie-Gulfzero Charlie (talk) 01:49, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I've removed references to his Catholicism from the bioethics section as per WP:SYNTH and WP:BLP. While his views on bioethics "coincidentally" align with Roman Catholic values, there are no references where he states that abortion is wrong because God says it is wrong. He has never used any religious arguments in this area, as far as I am aware. --Surturz (talk) 02:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

From page 180 of Battlelines:

"As an ambitious politician, I had never had the slightest intention of becoming a morals campaigner. Shortly after becoming health minister, though, I'd been asked to justify Medicare funding for up to 75,000 abortions every year. It was a question that compelled an answer. The first instalment, delivered in March 2004 as a speech entitled 'The Ethical Responsibilities of a Christian Politician', distinguished between deploring the frequency of abortion and trying to re-criminalise it. In a speech shortly after the 2004 election I had even endorsed, at least as an improvement on the current situation, Bill Clinton's observation that abortion should be 'safe, legal and rare'.

"The subsequent parliamentary debate over the abortion drug RU486 exposed a post-Christian parliament's reservations about the suitability of Catholics for certain jobs. It also revealed a new consensus, even among MPs, that Australia's abortion rate was far too high. I had never supported any move to re-criminalise abortion because that would have stigmatised millions of Australian women facing an unexpected pregnancy. It seemed to be the best way to nudge the abortion rate down without affecting a women's right to choose. Even so, it was enough to make me the 'Capitan Catholic' of Australian politics."

It's pretty clear from this (and from other sources), that he is not in favour of criminalising abortion, and the "safe, legal and rare" comment is not a misrepresentation.  -- Lear's Fool 04:28, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

If you read 'The Ethical Responsibilities of a Christian Politician', you will see that he actually repudiates religious arguments against abortion; he clearly states that no belief in God is necessary to deplore the quantity of abortions performed in Australia. Extending the "100,000" quotation is also informative:

What does it say about the state of our relationships and our values that so many women (and their husbands, lovers and families) feel incapable of coping with a pregnancy or a child? To a pregnant 14 year old struggling to grasp what’s happening, a senior student with a whole life mapped out or a mother already failing to cope under difficult circumstances, abortion is the easy way out. It’s hardly surprising that people should choose the most convenient exit from awkward situations. What seems to be considered far less often is avoiding situations where difficult choices might arise. Our society has rightly terrified primary school children about the horrors of smoking but seems to take it for granted that adolescents will have sex despite the grim social consequences of teenage single parenthood. If half the effort were put into discouraging teenage promiscuity as into preventing teenage speeding, there might be fewer abortions, fewer traumatised young women and fewer dysfunctional families. Why isn’t the fact that 100,000 women choose to end their pregnancies regarded as a national tragedy approaching the scale (say) of Aboriginal life expectancy being 20 years less than that of the general community? No one wants to recreate the backyard abortion clinic (or to stigmatise the millions of Australians who have had abortions or encouraged others to do so) but is it really so hard to create a culture where people understand that actions have consequences and take responsibilities seriously?

I'm not saying we should exhaustively reiterate his position in the article - the reader has google for that - but we must avoid any suggestion that he is against abortion and euthanasia simply because he is a Roman Catholic. His stated positions are far more nuanced than that. --Surturz (talk) 06:33, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Something is driving him to lie on the matter. It is NOT a "fact that 100,000 women choose to end their pregnancies" in Australia every year. That number includes all hospital procedures that involve the end of a pregnancy, including all miscarriages. Nobody chooses a miscarriage. It's a well known ploy of anti-abortionists to use that figure, generally knowing it's a lie. Abbott is either stupid, ignorant, consciously pushing the Catholic Church driven anti-abortion campaign, or pandering to those who do. None of those options is a good look. We cannot know what actually drives his position. That he is a very public Catholic cannot be ignored. HiLo48 (talk) 07:25, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

As with anything written by an active politician, Abbott's own utterances on this topic should be taken with a large grain of salt (eg, by acknowledging other published interpretations of this topic). Nick-D (talk) 07:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Any implication that his views on bioethics are derived solely or largely from blind religious belief is contentious and should be backed up with high quality references as per WP:BLP. It is self-evident from his speeches and authorship that his position on bioethical issues is based on reasoning that extends beyond a simple faith in the Almighty. --Surturz (talk) 11:09, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Self-evident? That needs to be said by someone else, not you. What's the self-evident reason for him repeatedly using a very dishonest claim for the number of abortions? HiLo48 (talk) 18:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

His personal view on abortion is not self evident. His stated political position is - he's on the record multiple times. In the six months this discussion has been active, nobody has provided a reliable source stating that his view is anything other than this, nor any criticism of his use of the "100,000" figure. Show me the WP:RS!! --Yeti Hunter (talk) 22:40, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

From the Australian Parliamentary Library (Something obviously readily available to Abbott):

"...Mr Abbott has previously said that 100 000 abortions take place in Australia each year...

Most other commentators put the number of abortions at considerably less than 100 000—at somewhere between 70 000 to 80 000. The truth, however, is that currently, it is impossible to accurately quantify the number of abortions which take place in Australia. This is because there is no national data collection on abortion, there is no uniform method of data collection, collation or publication across the states and territories, and the data sources that are available all have several significant limitations.

It is not possible to determine with any degree of precision what proportion of Medicare claims for these item numbers are for pregnancy terminations, since Medicare claims for actual abortions cannot be disaggregated from the other procedures claimed under these item numbers when the Medicare claim is lodged and processed (and therefore they are not disaggregated in the HIC’s data on the number of claims processed for these item numbers).

...the number of abortions funded by Medicare each year could range from around 20 000 to around 65 000."

Not a lot of certainty there, but Abbott repeatedly speaks and writes as if there is. Why? Religous motivation? Political motivations? We cannot know for sure. But let's be very careful when we come to stating what he believes and why. HiLo48 (talk) 23:43, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Only one of us is trying to assert why he holds these opinions. And anyway, apparently his claim is only out by 20-30%, according to "most other commentators". I'm not exactly outraged. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 04:34, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

My point about the number of abortions is twofold. Firstly, there is no certainty about the number, despite it being used frequently by anti-abortionists as if there is. Secondly, the real figure is obviously less than that bandied about by the above-mentioned folk, including Abbott. All quite dishonest. As for Abbott's reasons for saying what he says, I can only guess. Circumstantial evidence plays a big part in me thinking that it IS due to his Catholic background, but I'm not a reliable source. Nor, given the above pretty good evidence about the number, is Abbott. His stated reasons can be listed as just that, his stated reasons, but certainly not as the actual reasons. HiLo48 (talk) 05:54, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Once again, I am not trying to argue why Abbott holds his opinions, but that it is a fact that those are his publicly held opinions.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 06:01, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

This discussion is breaching wp:NOTAFORUM. We all have our own feelings about TA and his motivations, but we must use RSes for the encylopedia. Period. OzOke (talk) 05:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a simple case of arguing the merits or otherwise of Abbott. It's a little more complicated than that. It was highlighted that Abbott had personally stated that his view wasn't based on God, but because, among other things, the 100,000 abortions in Australia each year are a national tragedy. I think it's significant that Abbott would almost certainly know that that 100,000 figure he uses is wrong. We cannot validly give that as his reason for his beliefs, because he almost certainly knows it's nonsense. We can say that he said it, but it's important to state that the figure is wrong, not to prove Abbott a liar, but to avoid promulgating false information about the number of abortions in Australia in Misplaced Pages. HiLo48 (talk) 06:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

It's a simple case of do you have WP:RS or not?--Yeti Hunter (talk) 12:10, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

A WP:RS for what? And the mere fact that I have to ask shows that it's not simple. HiLo48 (talk) 16:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

For anything you propose to add to the article. If that is not the purpose of this discussion, I direct you to OzOke's comment above.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 22:31, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't the first to mention the 100,000 figure in this discussion. I am arguing that we must NOT mention it here, even though Abbott uses it, without clarifying that it's wrong. So, if it's not used, we don't need a source. HiLo48 (talk) 07:10, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Nobody knows if it's wrong or not - Australia doesn't keep statistics. It may be appropriate to note that Abbott was criticised for use of the figure, and subsequently admitted that there was uncertainty about the exact number, if you can find a reliable source that quotes this. I have added some such material to Abortion in Australia. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 07:16, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

That's all good background info, thanks for the work Surturz.Observoz (talk) 15:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

As a latecomer to this debate, may I suggest that Abbott's views on abortion are hardly worth the number of words devoted to them here. Quote him, then the party platform, and be done with it until there is a concrete change. The length of this discussion alone suggests a desire by some to insert into the available facts a conclusion that has no place on Misplaced Pages. At its most liberal extreme, the relevant section might, with appropriate references, point out that the abortion debate is a polarising issue. But I defy anyone to show me concrete, as opposed to rhetorical, differences between the policies of the major parties. Moreover, apply the following test: will the next election be fought, won or lost on the issue of abortion? If the answer is no, it's not an issue that should preoccupy an encyclopaedia; let's be done with this and concentrate on more productive uses for our time. Regards Peter Strempel | Talk 13:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

AN discussion about sanction concerning this article

I've proposed lifting the 1RR sanction that applies to this article, at WP:AN#Proposal to revoke sanction no longer needed: WP:GS#Tony Abbott.  Sandstein  11:30, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The restriction has now been lifted, though obviously this article remains subject to the strict conditions set by WP:BLP Nick-D (talk) 02:45, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Abbott nationality

Abbott was born in London, England, to Australian parents. In 1960, his family returned to Australia,

was recently changed to

On 7 September 1960, his family migrated to Australia on the ship Oronsay under the Assisted Passage Migration Scheme

The new text doesn't seem correct to me. The ref given is naa.gov.au, there is no specific link, I searched on the keyword "Oronsay", but only found 1930s era records. I found this link which is obviously completely unreliable, but it references (Michael Duffy (2004) Latham and Abbott , 8-10) to support this text:

Born 4 November 1957, London, UK to Australian expatriate parents who returned to Sydney in 1960.

. Has anyone got that book to check? --Surturz (talk) 15:00, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

• I've added the correct url to the reference, replacing naa.gov.au. It's http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=7328488. Colonel Tom 06:01, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Confound it all, the link I posted seems to be inactive - it's tied to an active browsing session I created. The National Archives of Australia reference for the records is A1877, 07/09/1960 ORONSAY ABBOTT R H. I found the record by running a RecordSearch on their www.naa.gov.au website. Oronsay and Abbott as keywords, and 1960 to 1961 as date range retrieve the record easily - or you could search on the item barcode, 7328488 - but I'm out of practice here, and can't for the life of me see how to provide a url that will remain active. Could another more competent editor assist? Pretty please? Colonel Tom 09:20, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I replaced your dud link with a cn tag before reading your post. OK, I've confirmed the page, but damn that is one frustrating website. The reference "NAA: A1877, 07/09/1960 ORONSAY ABBOTT R H" is probably enough to satisfy WP:V - there's nothing in WP policy that says we must have a working link. I'll replace the cn tag with a link to the main website and a comment on how to get there.
    • However, I think we need to be careful asserting that Abbott's parents were not Australian as per WP:BLP. I can find this link and this link saying otherwise. I suspect we would be violating WP:OR if we used the naa link to assert that. It is possible that they were merely passengers on the ship:

      ABBOTT Richard Henry born 6 January 1924; Fay (nee Peters) born 23 May 1933; Anthony John born 4 November 1957; Jane Elizabeth born 25 January 1959; travelled per ORONSAY departing Tilbury on 7 September 1960 under the Assisted Passage Migration Scheme

      I can read this two ways, that the Abbotts were under the scheme, or just that the ship itself was part of the scheme, but the Abbotts may or may not have been migrants. --Surturz (talk) 15:48, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
      • Surely there's a secondary source we can use for this. Government files held by the NAA are useful, but they can be difficult to interpret and it's not like Abbott is an obscure figure or there's a 'birther' type argument which needs to be settled through reference to the primary sources. Nick-D (talk) 00:22, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
        • I'm having trouble finding one! This Savva article >< mentions his parents as Richard and Fay, so I think it highly unlikely that the NAA record is for a different family. It's not that big a deal of course, it's a matter of public record that PM Gillard's parents were Ten Pound Poms. --Surturz (talk) 02:15, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

(outdent)Curioser and curioser! For fun I ordered the image of the record (apparently it will become publicly available online). Since then the record has disappeared! I did find this link though: >link< which seems to be the same ship. --Surturz (talk) 04:12, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Record hadn't disappeared, there was a typo in my search terms. The digital copy is now available: (link), which shows that his father was originally English, and his mother Australian. Both Australian now of course. I have updated the article to match. Mystery solved! --Surturz (talk) 00:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Good find. Not trying to make any major point here, but you say "Both Australian now of course." Are you sure? As far as I know, there has never been a formal requirement for UK immigrants from that time to take out Australian citizenship. Many proudly did, and many proudly didn't. It's not a big issue. Just curious. HiLo48 (talk) 01:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I suppose it's possible he's still a pom. I don't think there is any need to say one way or the other in the article. Looks like his father had an interesting career - steelworker, RAAF pilot, then dentist! Actually... that's interesting, RAAF pilot - not RAF pilot. Hmm. --Surturz (talk) 03:42, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Possibly useful link: . --Surturz (talk) 03:47, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Interesting article. And no, Tony's dad's nationality is irrelevant to the article. (Just as where Tony was born is irrelevant to whether he becomes PM or not. Those who worry about such things have watched too much American TV.) HiLo48 (talk) 09:17, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I just realised this. You’d have to go back to 1915-16 to find the last time we had a Prime Minister (Billy Hughes) and an Opposition Leader (Joseph Cook) who were both born outside Australia (both in the UK, as it happens, just like Gillard and Abbott). -- Jack of Oz 09:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

A. Abbott's nickname is ABBO

His minders call him that in pubs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.51.39.146 (talk) 09:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source for that? HiLo48 (talk) 09:34, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

And why in pubs, of all places? Surely they'd be watching their Ps and Qs while they were anywhere in public, if only to protect their master's reputation, as any loyal staffers would. But who knows what goes on behind closed doors? -- Jack of Oz 09:48, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Conservative

Abbott and his positions should be described as "conservative" per reliable sources. If there are no objections I'll make it so. – Lionel 12:34, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Quote re Barrie Unsworth in the 'Enter' section

Abbott's quoted from a Monica Attard interview as saying "Barrie Unsworth was the best deal Premier that New South Wales had ever had." I'm not sure what "best deal" means in this context. ("best damn...", perhaps?) In an attempt to clarify, I went to the source - ] which offers links to the audio in mp3, windows media or RM formats - but all of the links are dead. I wonder if the transcript could be inaccurate? Can anyone suggest a way to check this, or to confirm the accuracy? Or explain the quote to me? :) Thanks, Colonel Tom 11:40, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it adds much. I vote for deletion.Observoz (talk) 11:38, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

"The most effective opposition leader in Australia's history"?

User:Observoz has added to the article two interesting facts. Firstly, "Abbott continued to criticise the government...", and secondly, "ABC 7:30 host Chris Uhlmann called Abbott "perhaps the most effective opposition leader in Australia's history...".

I reverted it as trivia and asked him to discuss it. He restored it, without discussion, but telling me in an Edit summary "Not trivia - Uhlmann is a journalist of considerable standing making a professional judgment and one being repeated by many across the political spectrum."

Well, the first quote simply tells us nothing. It's what opposition leaders do. They criticise the government.

The second is either biased sycophancy from someone who should be (and almost always is) much more independent, or meant as a somewhat ironic joke. I believe it's the latter.

I also believe that the additions add nothing of value to the article, unless we are collecting (seemingly?) pro-Abbott comments. They don't tell us anything new about Abbott in any concrete way at all. HiLo48 (talk) 08:25, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

It's never a good idea to add individual assessments of people from journalists. We could create a whole section of the article (or even a stand alone article) with positive, negative and indifferent assessments of Abbot by various journalists and commentators, and it wouldn't advance things one bit. For instance, should we also add praise of Abbot from Miranda Divine and abuse of him from the Green Left Weekly? Nick-D (talk) 08:47, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Given that so many voices are calling Abbott an unusually effective opposition leader, I think that some reference to it should be included as a record of this time in Australia politics. I think Uhlmann's version is useful - but so many journalists and opinionists have made the same assessment (from Paul Kelly to Graham Richardson) that there are several ways to frame the sentence.

BUT

If we want to fix a rule that journalistic assessments are always and everywhere inappropriate for this page then ok, then we will have to delete the line: "According to the Sun-Herald newspaper, student newspapers called him a "right-wing thug and bully who used sexist and racist tactics to intimidate his opponents"". In other words, Nick-D, the Green Left Weekly - or it's 1970s equivalent - is already quoted in the article and has been for some months, with no complaints from Hilo48. If Uhlmann must go, then so must the anonymous "student newspapers" Observoz (talk) 14:02, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I must admit, Uhlmann is no rinky-dink press-jockey. I think the Uhlmann quote can be included without breaching WP:INDISCRIMINATE, especially given the fact that the general view of Abbott being particularly effective at criticising the government is quite prevalent. Still, the fact that he is considered effective can be stated as a matter of fact; that he is the "most effective" must be presented merely as a matter of Uhlmanns opinion. A lot of the quotes in the body - the "thug and bully" one particularly - could do with some cleanup. This is a BLP, remember. Green Left Weekly (or the opinions of his former adversaries) shouldn't cut it.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 14:30, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what a rinky-dink press jockey is, and none of my original comments have been refuted yet. Why should the statement of one TV personality count for any more than the opinion of anyone else in the country. Observoz's claim that "so many voices are calling Abbott an unusually effective opposition leader" is completely unsupported, and still largely irrelevant to the article, which is supposed to be about Abbott, not these mysterious "voices". I still suspect what Ulmann said could be pure irony. There is no evidence to the contrary, and what he said would hardly be an objective statement. It has no place in this article. HiLo48 (talk) 16:05, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

What standards are there for "most effective Opposition Leader"? It's going to be opinion all the way. One could nominate Bob Hawke, who became PM from OL in a few weeks. Or Gough Whitlam, who effectively terminated the careers of two PMs. Malcolm Fraser, who destroyed Gough Whitlam in eight months.Tony Abbott whittled Labor back from a landslide win in 2007 to minority status in 2010 and looks set to reduce Labor to a Queensland-style rump.

However, all of the above feats were assisted by Prime Ministerial incompetence or a strong "It's Time" factor. Or both, in the case of Billy McMahon. Chris Uhlmann's opinion may be a good one - or not - but we really should have some objective goalposts to measure performance before we include such statements. --Pete (talk) 23:21, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

HiLo48 are you really saying this is the one and only time you have heard Abbott described as an unusually effective opposition leader?? I had assumed that you were an editor who would be widely reading and watching analysis of aus politics. Evidently I was wrong. Personally I see nothing wrong in calling people like Rudd, Howard, Hawke, Fraser or Whitlam effective opposition leaders - nor in this case Abbott. But, as you seem to be requesting sources, and that is your right, so here's a tiny sample:

The Australian is making the following assessment:

ALP stalwart Graham Richardson goes further, when asked about whether Abbott or Turnbull were better Opposition Leaders and offered this assessment:

Ross Fitzgerald, Emeritus Professor of History and Politics at Griffith University, :

There are of course other sources making similar assessments, but I'd of thought that the ABC is good one. Perhaps Hilo48, you might concede the point that this is a point of view being commonly expressed, rather than make remarks about "mysterious voices". Observoz (talk) 02:10, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Regarding "voices", I simply reused your words. The problem with those sources is that you're not using them in the article. You have chosen one, and I suspect that it's not what you say it is. And anyway, including what some commentators (or just one?) say about a politician is very dangerous ground. It's always possible to find a contrary view. It's for that reason that I rarely listen to political commentary. I listen to political news, and make up my own mind. I have no intention of sharing my opinion here because, like yours, and Ulmann's, it's irrelevant to what Abbott actually is. HiLo48 (talk) 02:40, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

It's obvious from this discussion that there is no consensus to add this material. Time for it to go. HiLo48 (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

"Thug and bully" quote

I've removed the student politics quote mentioned above by Observoz. It's effectively hearsay and unsourced to any specific person or publication. However, the flavour of the Sun-Herald piece rings true enough in its description of student politics in those post Whitlam days, when many people who would not otherwise have become university students - such as myself - piled in with the abolition of fees. My recollections of those days were of occasional violence, skullduggery and dirty tactics and hyperbole in every student political publication. I really don't think that some unsourced bit of amateur journalism is truly encyclopaedic. --Pete (talk) 23:45, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

1. http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election/abbott-urges-australia-to-oust-untrustworthy-gillard-20100717-10euq.html?autostart=1
2. http://www.news.com.au/features/federal-election/labor-takes-early-lead-in-two-party-preferred-galaxy-poll/story-e6frfllr-1225893422815

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