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Welcome, correspondents If you're here because I deleted an article you think should be undeleted, please read this first and remember--Most of the time, I didn't write the text that appears in the deletion summary.
N.B. I don't respond well to either fawning or abuse. Talk to me like a peer, assume good faith, and you'll find I reciprocate in my helpfulness.

Functionary Assistance My ability to help as a checkuser, oversighter, or arbitrator in individual matters is currently limited by my positional and non-Misplaced Pages obligations. For non-trivial assistance, especially that which requires extensive consideration of private correspondence, you will likely get a faster response by asking another functionary.

Position Essays may help you understand my point of view with regard to...

• Notability of Fictional Topics
• Articles for Deletion
• Blocks
• My RfA Standards

Administrator Goals Doing my best to improve the tiny little wedge in the top center:

Amendment

I've made a request to amend one of the findings of fact. I do not gain anything from it (or the speed with which it is handled), but other individuals or groups might. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:24, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I have all the case, clarification, and amendment pages watchlisted, though, so a notification that you've filed something is unnecessary, although I see how you might have gotten that from my WT:AC/N post. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 16:24, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, although the notification was not merely that I've filed something (or at least, that was not the sole intention). Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:24, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Random assertions

Please do not continue to make misleading assertions like "when he used his administrative privileges to do things like adjusting whitespace". You are supposed to be an impartial arbitrator, not making up additional assertions for the evidence phase, which closed a considerable time ago. Rich Farmbrough, 23:50, 20 May 2012 (UTC).

You're speaking as if the case was still open--it's over and done, and I'm speaking in generalities, rather than referring to specific instances. I thought it overkill to refer to specific evidence, and did not intend what I said to be taken as a specific allegation, but rather a descriptor of the sort of edits that proved problematic. What would you prefer I substitute for what I originally wrote? Jclemens (talk) 01:13, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

The point is simply that it is substantively wrong to say that. No one in the case, or anywhere else has ever alleged that. It speaks volumes that you could think that is part of the case, and explains, perhaps, how such a grotesque travesty of a decision was reached. Rich Farmbrough, 05:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC).

I could have clarified that by "administrative privileges", I'm referring primarily to noratelimit and AWB access, and that "like adjusting whitespace", I am describing the relative value of your contested edits (cosmetic), and not saying that you did, in fact, adjust whitespace. Jclemens (talk) 06:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I did not make, by and large, cosmetic edits. I have no idea why you think noratelimit is relevant, and AWB access is completely irrelevant, since I would have had specific access if I had not had admin access to the tool. Again you must have been in a different arbcom case from me. Rich Farmbrough, 07:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC).

All admins have permanent access to AWB; desysoping you was the only way to remove it without hacking in a workaround to say "All admins except Rich F", as I understand it. I have personally seen edits where you changed the capitalization in templates on pages; you may not call things like this cosmetic, but I do. Note that for the record I am not claiming that that specific edit is automated, or covered by the case, but it is an example of what I would call cosmetic editing. Jclemens (talk) 07:33, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

That edit you show is of course obviously not made with AWB, I hope you can find more clear examples because without it you do not have any evidence that Rich abused AWB to do cosmetic changes, which you however assert. And desysopping Rich Farmbrough as an enforcement to disable the use of WP:AWB by him is of course a clear case of assuming bad faith (I could expand this ad adsurdum). Not to say that AWB nowadays can be set to not save cosmetic changes which would further negate your necessity to take his administrative powers. --Dirk Beetstra 07:47, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't actually have to find "examples" or "evidence" at all; my illustration of what I meant by what I said is appropriate courtesy on my part. The case has been decided, sanctions have been applied, and the ball is in Rich's court regarding how he conducts himself going forward. Jclemens (talk) 07:51, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

And that is exactly where the problem is - you put a verdict without being able to show evidence. --Dirk Beetstra 07:57, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

OK- short strokes. I conduct myself by not lying. I expect that you would want to do the same. When I draw your attention to an untruth you have uttered about me I don't expect you to fight and fight about what you meant. I expect you to say, at the very least "I'm sorry, I was mistaken" not to prevaricate with made up technical defence of what you are saying. Rich Farmbrough, 07:59, 27 May 2012 (UTC).

And I would hope you able to understand the difference between an illustration and a statement of fact, and to propose concrete alternatives for improvement if my illustrations erred. Jclemens (talk) 08:01, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

The point is that I didn't abuse my admin bit. Therefore saying as a throwaway line that I did is promulgating exactly the sort of slander that caused so many problems in the first place. If you are unable to actually find something that I did wrong, which seems to be the case you should ask to have your votes for sanctions rescinded. You should not go around making false claims and expect me to come up with valid ones when you can't stand them up, even when you have completely re-written them three times. You should have the good grace to apologise, but maybe that's too much to expect. Rich Farmbrough, 08:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC).

You're asking for two things: an apology and a redo of part the case. Which is more important to you? Pick one, and only one, if you want to continue the conversation. Jclemens (talk) 08:59, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Why does Rich only have right on one? --Dirk Beetstra 09:04, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I can parse that, but I think you mean "Why does Rich have to pick only one?". He doesn't. He just has to articulate which is more important to him: an apology or an opportunity to redo any part of the case. Jclemens (talk) 09:17, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Eh, maybe I did not parse it correctly or completely. Thanks for the clarification. --Dirk Beetstra 10:11, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Dispute resolution notice

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "The Black Album/Come On Feel the Dandy Warhols". Thank you. --Neuroticguru (talk) 16:44, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but a) I don't consider myself all that involved, and b) it looks more like a user conduct issue than an actual dispute. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 04:50, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

your assistance please...

In August of 2010 you deleted the article Dirty thirty (Vietnam) as an expired prod. Unfortunately, whoever placed that prod didn't bother to leave a heads-up on my talk page, and I only became aware of the deletion now.

I request userification to User:Geo Swan/userified 2012-05/Dirty thirty (Vietnam) please. Geo Swan (talk) 19:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

FWIW a few seconds with google finds lots of replacement references -- nominator might benefit from re-reading WP:BEFORE , .

I don't userify prods--I put them back in mainspace. You're free to move it to your userspace for work, but as of now it's back in mainspace. Feel free to commence upgrade work on it. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 20:40, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Input

Look at One Sonic Society, and tell me what you think of it now?HotHat (talk) 21:41, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Looks substantially better than any of the previous versions, and sufficiently different that G4 deletion would be inappropriate. Keep up the good work! Jclemens (talk) 23:28, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

FYI

Apparently Arm's politics are bubbling over onto Misplaced Pages a bit. Whee. —chaos5023 (talk) 23:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Armageddon has the most odd combination of drama and survivability I've ever seen. It must be 20 years old now, and it still keeps going... Surprised that sort of thing hasn't happened on-Wiki before now, actually. Jclemens (talk) 23:29, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

how I think you should have done it

sent it as a notice to alert admins that such a thing had happened. DGG ( talk ) 23:58, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Yep, there's definitely a rush to defend established contributors, even when they're clearly in the wrong. Improving Misplaced Pages through pointing out inappropriate conduct has not been working too well for me lately. We'll see how the next ArbCom election deals with things--not just for me, but for the newcomers who've also been very willing to sanction established contributors. Jclemens (talk) 08:28, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Meaning of synthesis

Please see WP:SYNTH for what synthesis means. I have reverted your change to WP:SS. Synthesis is the sticking together of bits which were never meant to imply something, not that the stuff doesn't exist. There is no need to reiterate that guideline in WP:SS and it is only there to effect a synthesis. Dmcq (talk) 01:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, you didn't revert me, you reverted the next editor. Given how widespread the misunderstanding is--that notability limits article contents--I think it appropriately belongs in WP:SS. While you're entitled to an opinion that it does not belong there, I would encourage you to not edit war to keep a reference to a relevant policy out... Jclemens (talk) 01:09, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

J, this is now 3 reverts by Dmcq in 2 edit sets, refusal to discuss on Misplaced Pages talk:Summary style (please see), two edit summaries that I consider personal attacks, and unclear objection to a verbatim two sentences of WP:N. What should I do? Thanks. JJB 01:20, 27 May 2012 (UTC) Never mind, now at ANI, I will mention your name, thanks. JJB 01:24, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Engage him on his talk page. Try and find a middle ground that addresses everyone's objections. Failing that, I'm sure you know about the dispute resolution process--whatever you do, don't edit war. The person who edit wars over policy is automagically presumed to be the loser. Jclemens (talk) 01:28, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

No thanks. There was a centralized discussion at WP:VPP where he couldf have given his reasons for inconsistency saying he believed notability was required and then sticking that into WP:SS. I have now raised the question of his behaviour at if you really feel like standing up for him or for sticking a thing implying notability is not relevant into that guideline. It has had for a long time a bit about notability saying 'Editors are cautioned not to immediately split articles if the new article would meet neither the general notability criterion nor the specific notability criteria for their topic. Instead, editors are encouraged to work on further developing the main article first, locating coverage that applies to both the main topic and the subtopic' It is ambiguous about whether notability is required for subtopics and I see no reason for someone to say it expressly is not required in that guideline without being very certain that is common practice. As far as I can see the move was inspitred by some people at wanting to do an end run round notability by saying individual events in a series didn't need notability only the overall series. Dmcq (talk) 01:38, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

What you're saying about policy is true, but it's only half of the situation. I've seen people split things out, and then someone else asserts non-notability and argues for deletion of the spinout article because it's not notable. In fact, things spun out prematurely and without sufficient notability for the subtopic should be merged back into the parent article. Highlighting WP:NNC appropriately in WP:SS seems the best way to educate users about the difference between something that doesn't merit its own article, and something that should be deleted as inappropriate content. Jclemens (talk) 01:45, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

As I pointed out to you the guideline already says 'Editors are cautioned not to immediately split articles if the new article would meet neither the general notability criterion nor the specific notability criteria for their topic. Instead, editors are encouraged to work on further developing the main article first, locating coverage that applies to both the main topic and the subtopic' which I believe covers that exact point. The guideline is about summaries and setting up subtopics but I guess what you say could be put into a section about possible merging back. However that is not at all how it was put into the guideline. Dmcq (talk) 03:04, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Anyway I'll take you off my watchlist now as I've taken up enough of your talk page, that was about the subject rather than anything personal and I don't want to turn it into a wall of text like happened at VPP!. Dmcq (talk) 03:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I really don't mind continuing the discussion. Once I make an edit which is reverted, I would much, much rather discuss the issues--and here is as good a place as any. I find that I prefer discussing 1:1 or 2:1 like this, because it's easier to ferret out what the real differences are and work towards a solution that answers everyone's objections. Jclemens (talk) 04:29, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Well I did have a look for a reply :) Thanks for that offer, in general I'm happy to go on about how things work or ways to do things or a bit of general waffle or even a few days of a one to one dispute, but I have this thing against meatpuppetry and canvassing and groupthink so for longer or wider disputes I try for transparency as far as possible - so I try to practice what I preach as far as talking about articles or policies is concerned. Dmcq (talk) 10:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

N has been discussed by the MMA people for months or years. My unique attempt at mediation (which Dmcq calls an "end run") was essentially my own idea from my knowledge of policy, not that of the MMA project. Jclemens is essentially correct but there is much more to the story at VPP. JJB 02:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm intentionally ignorant about the MMA world and the disputes surrounding its events' representation on Misplaced Pages; I have the bad feeling that it will end up at ArbCom sooner or later, and I have no intention of wading into it prematurely. What I'm basing my statements on is fictional elements, which are my own area of greatest interest (and would already be recused in any case arriving before ArbCom). Jclemens (talk) 02:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Cold revert by Dennis

Sorry to have involved you tangentially in MMA when you might have thought you were "only" making a simple policy improvement edit. Presuming on your invitation to discuss, I think Dennis's reversion, along with his subtext that sounds to me like a threat of tools, is worthy of discussion. If I tried DR as you suggest, I might be at Medcab e.g. trying to explain why 2 sentences of WP:N should be in WP:SS and why Dmcq has offered no reasons why not, along with why Dennis's whole setting the clock back 2 weeks should also be undone, and I would hate to initiate that discussion where your name might be drawn in and smeared with the MMA brush (as mine now has after a completely neutral start). Since you had a preferred version that Dennis has reverted, and he also seems to be hinting a nascent contradiction to your initial statement that this is not a matter for tools, I am hopeful you can provide a quantum of guidance. JJB 22:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

When I edit policies, I do so as a user with 4+ years active and involved experience dealing with the nuances, not with any of the funny, special hats on. I don't know that I had a specific "preferred" version, while I do have a general agreement that WP:NNC should be added to WP:SS, because split/merge discussions should not degenerate into deletion, but rather un-splitting, merging, would be the preferred remedy. I have no desire to involve myself in the specifics as it applies to MMA or any sporting events whatsoever, which are not areas of my own particular expertise. Jclemens (talk) 23:43, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Community confidence

I believe you have lost community confidence as a Checkuser and Arbiter. Under what circumstances would you step down? Hipocrite (talk) 10:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I believe the community confidence in you is unshaken, and, in fact, is getting stronger. The use of sniping by any editor or sadmin is something I fear is intended to force you to recuse in cases involving them, which is cointrary to the intent of the pillars of Misplaced Pages, the policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, and quite importantly contrary to the policies and procedures governing the acts of ArbCom in itself. (bolding intentional) Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC) Collect (talk) 11:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 11:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

To alleviate Collect's concern, I do not believe you have an obligation to recuse in a case involving me unless it also involves you as a party. I merely wish to determine what would cause you to resign from the committee - a talk page petition? an RFC? a full case? Hipocrite (talk) 11:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

By all means start an RFC/U on Mr. Clemens. I suggest you might not appreciate the results. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:38, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Speaking as part of the community, I'm not aware of anything which would lead me to lose confidence in Jclemens (as a checkuser or arbitrator or anything else). I suppose you could lay out the details for us, though. Oh, and I think "a talk page petition" would be a pretty silly idea. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:34, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

To answer the original question, the circumstances in which I would step down include...

• If I've lost the confidence of the community, and am not reelected.
• If I've lost the confidence of the rest of the committee, and am asked to step down. While the committee may remove me by vote, my threshold for stepping down in the face of peer-based opposition is much lower.
• If I lose the ability to tolerate when consensus is against me. Or, if I find I've lost the will to continue to propose difficult actions that are necessary for the continued health of the encyclopedia. This is a really important point: anyone in a position of "authority" on Misplaced Pages needs to balance their belief in the appropriateness of their viewpoints with the consensus process, and be able to tell the difference between a few vocal individuals griping and true community consensus. Likewise, if I'm not being opposed by anyone, then I've just become a rubber stamp, exercising no initiative and doing no one any good.
• If my personal circumstances change such that I'm not able to devote the amount of time I believe appropriate to Misplaced Pages.
• If I ever catch myself thinking of myself as a master of Misplaced Pages, rather than its servant.

If I'm not doing something "wrong" occasionally, then I must not be trying hard enough. Jclemens (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh, another thing to keep aware of: I never have had more than, what, 60% support in the two elections in which I've been elected to the committee. So the fact that a large number of wikipedians do not favor me having a position on the committee (or liked other candidates better, etc.) is simply part of the background under which I serve all Wikipedians. If I wanted to be popular, I wouldn't be first to address problems, proposals, and the like. I'd be a lot more... deliberative, like several of the more popular arbitrators are. While I appreciate the value of such detached consideration and realize its necessity, in isolation it really would not help move cases along, nor identify and solve problems. Inasmuch as the committee ever uses anything resembling Good cop/bad cop, I'm the "bad cop". The analogy isn't really apt, though, since we aren't manipulating any interrogations--we're just trying to get to the right answer for the encyclopedia as expeditiously as possible. I have no illusions that my popularity has anything but plummeted by my doing my job in the way I promised to in my election statements... But that's what I signed up for, and I anticipate discharging those duties to the best of my ability through the end of my elected term. Jclemens (talk) 19:58, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Nicely put, that balance between pushing forward and leading from behind is always necessary in a community. B——C_ritical 21:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration regarding GoodDay

As can be seen from his edit history and the user box he added to his user talk page, GoodDay's preferred edits are gnomish ones, applying small corrections repetitively. He is willing to take on tasks that others may find dull, and in this way can contribute positively to Misplaced Pages. I do not believe a complete ban is warranted; I think a limitation, with specified penalties, on being involved in his hot button issues may be more suitable. isaacl (talk) 01:22, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

This looks like the sort of input that should go on the case request page to make sure it's visible by all arbitrators. Would you mind if I moved it? Jclemens (talk) 01:45, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm a bit torn between a desire to avoid the arbitration pages (which seem to breed combative behaviour) and a wish to find a way to keep GoodDay as productive as possible and not banned completely. Resolute has posted a very good statement on the request page which I hope will be given due consideration. However, I will give more thought to posting a statement as well. isaacl (talk) 02:02, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

2008–09 Liga Indonesia Premier Division

Please restore that article, thanks.*Annas* (talk) 06:24, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Done. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 06:40, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Your conduct

• Leon Gonsalez (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jello carotids (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

A senior administrator and checkuser Deskana has indicated that the information I provided about these two sockpuppets in 2 recent SPI reports, per  Sounds like a duck quacking into a megaphone to me, was adequate without checkuser or further investigations for identifying this long-term wikihounding socking troll. In these circumstances of blatant immediately identifiable sockpuppetry, what precisely was your reason for spending so much time suggesting otherwise and making sneering innuendos about my conduct vis-a-vis the edits of these blatant sockpuppets? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 15:16, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't recall the Gonsalez account. Can you link to what I said, when about it?

On Jello carotids, here's how it went: Somehow, I noticed that you'd reverted someone else in an SPI on yourself. I believe I did that because I saw something else interesting you'd done, and that caused me to look into your recent contributions roughly 48 hours ago. I looked at the reversion you'd made, and found that it contained a plausible assertion of wrongdoing on your part: that is, it asserted you were keeping evidence against other users, after a case had concluded, in violation of WP:UP#POLEMIC (clauses 2 and 3 being the relevant ones). I investigated the assertions and came to the conclusion that they represented actual wrongdoing on your part, which made your action in reverting them impermissible and a further wrong.

WP:BAN says anyone can revert anything a banned user says at any time. But, like "AGF is not a suicide pact", neither is WP:BAN. It was never proper for you, the accused editor, who was guilty of the conduct asserted as improper, to remove the accusation of that impropriety from your own SPI page. That is, at that point, the SPI on Mathsci is not about Jello carotids--whose SPI I never challenged or changed in any way--but about your own improper behavior. Since I found that he had a legitimate basis for complaint against you, I reverted both the removal and the archiving of the case per Misplaced Pages:BAN#Edits by and on behalf of banned editors, although "on behalf of" a banned editor is tenuous, because I was more interested in your behavior than the presumed-sock edits.

Further, rather than saying "Wow, you're right, someone else should have done reverted that, since I did actually maintain that account, but for really good reasons which I'll email Arbcom about", you repeatedly made false statements that you had never reverted in your own SPI. The fact that your two messages after you were caught keeping evidence post-case was auto-discarded by our mailing list software is entirely regrettable, and would have helped clear up the matter many hours sooner, but to summarize, you did three things wrong in this case, the first two of which are each a root cause: had you not done either one, the SPI would not have been unarchived and pursued as it was:

1) You maintained evidence on a "hidden" page after the R&I review was closed,

2) You reverted another user, sockpuppet or not, who made an accurate observation in the proper venue that you had engaged in the condct in 1) and a policy based argument that it was impermissible, and

3) You made materially false statements in the SPI about your conduct in 2).

At any rate, I hope the recap provides enough illustration for why I took action on the basis of a banned user's complaint. Given that ArbCom's got a number of things on its plate right now, an ArbCom motion will not likely be immediately forthcoming--especially since a block is not a likely outcome in light of ArbCom's mailing list failure which delayed our receiving your explanation through no fault of yours. I believe you've received a separate email from one of our mailing list administrators confirming that problem.

You have my most sincere apologies for both the mailing list error and the fact that you've been subjected to repeated harassment by sockpuppets. I sincerely regret that you took action in light of the latter which was itself impermissible. Jclemens (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)