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Welcome, correspondents If you're here because I deleted an article you think should be undeleted, please read this first and remember--Most of the time, I didn't write the text that appears in the deletion summary.
N.B. I don't respond well to either fawning or abuse. Talk to me like a peer, assume good faith, and you'll find I reciprocate in my helpfulness.

Functionary Assistance My ability to help as a checkuser, oversighter, or arbitrator in individual matters is currently limited by my positional and non-Misplaced Pages obligations. For non-trivial assistance, especially that which requires extensive consideration of private correspondence, you will likely get a faster response by asking another functionary.

Position Essays may help you understand my point of view with regard to...

• Notability of Fictional Topics
• Articles for Deletion
• Blocks
• My RfA Standards

Administrator Goals Doing my best to improve the tiny little wedge in the top center:

Amendment

I've made a request to amend one of the findings of fact. I do not gain anything from it (or the speed with which it is handled), but other individuals or groups might. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:24, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I have all the case, clarification, and amendment pages watchlisted, though, so a notification that you've filed something is unnecessary, although I see how you might have gotten that from my WT:AC/N post. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 16:24, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, although the notification was not merely that I've filed something (or at least, that was not the sole intention). Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:24, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Random assertions

Please do not continue to make misleading assertions like "when he used his administrative privileges to do things like adjusting whitespace". You are supposed to be an impartial arbitrator, not making up additional assertions for the evidence phase, which closed a considerable time ago. Rich Farmbrough, 23:50, 20 May 2012 (UTC).

You're speaking as if the case was still open--it's over and done, and I'm speaking in generalities, rather than referring to specific instances. I thought it overkill to refer to specific evidence, and did not intend what I said to be taken as a specific allegation, but rather a descriptor of the sort of edits that proved problematic. What would you prefer I substitute for what I originally wrote? Jclemens (talk) 01:13, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

The point is simply that it is substantively wrong to say that. No one in the case, or anywhere else has ever alleged that. It speaks volumes that you could think that is part of the case, and explains, perhaps, how such a grotesque travesty of a decision was reached. Rich Farmbrough, 05:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC).

I could have clarified that by "administrative privileges", I'm referring primarily to noratelimit and AWB access, and that "like adjusting whitespace", I am describing the relative value of your contested edits (cosmetic), and not saying that you did, in fact, adjust whitespace. Jclemens (talk) 06:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I did not make, by and large, cosmetic edits. I have no idea why you think noratelimit is relevant, and AWB access is completely irrelevant, since I would have had specific access if I had not had admin access to the tool. Again you must have been in a different arbcom case from me. Rich Farmbrough, 07:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC).

All admins have permanent access to AWB; desysoping you was the only way to remove it without hacking in a workaround to say "All admins except Rich F", as I understand it. I have personally seen edits where you changed the capitalization in templates on pages; you may not call things like this cosmetic, but I do. Note that for the record I am not claiming that that specific edit is automated, or covered by the case, but it is an example of what I would call cosmetic editing. Jclemens (talk) 07:33, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

That edit you show is of course obviously not made with AWB, I hope you can find more clear examples because without it you do not have any evidence that Rich abused AWB to do cosmetic changes, which you however assert. And desysopping Rich Farmbrough as an enforcement to disable the use of WP:AWB by him is of course a clear case of assuming bad faith (I could expand this ad adsurdum). Not to say that AWB nowadays can be set to not save cosmetic changes which would further negate your necessity to take his administrative powers. --Dirk Beetstra 07:47, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't actually have to find "examples" or "evidence" at all; my illustration of what I meant by what I said is appropriate courtesy on my part. The case has been decided, sanctions have been applied, and the ball is in Rich's court regarding how he conducts himself going forward. Jclemens (talk) 07:51, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

And that is exactly where the problem is - you put a verdict without being able to show evidence. --Dirk Beetstra 07:57, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

OK- short strokes. I conduct myself by not lying. I expect that you would want to do the same. When I draw your attention to an untruth you have uttered about me I don't expect you to fight and fight about what you meant. I expect you to say, at the very least "I'm sorry, I was mistaken" not to prevaricate with made up technical defence of what you are saying. Rich Farmbrough, 07:59, 27 May 2012 (UTC).

And I would hope you able to understand the difference between an illustration and a statement of fact, and to propose concrete alternatives for improvement if my illustrations erred. Jclemens (talk) 08:01, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

The point is that I didn't abuse my admin bit. Therefore saying as a throwaway line that I did is promulgating exactly the sort of slander that caused so many problems in the first place. If you are unable to actually find something that I did wrong, which seems to be the case you should ask to have your votes for sanctions rescinded. You should not go around making false claims and expect me to come up with valid ones when you can't stand them up, even when you have completely re-written them three times. You should have the good grace to apologise, but maybe that's too much to expect. Rich Farmbrough, 08:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC).

You're asking for two things: an apology and a redo of part the case. Which is more important to you? Pick one, and only one, if you want to continue the conversation. Jclemens (talk) 08:59, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Why does Rich only have right on one? --Dirk Beetstra 09:04, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I can parse that, but I think you mean "Why does Rich have to pick only one?". He doesn't. He just has to articulate which is more important to him: an apology or an opportunity to redo any part of the case. Jclemens (talk) 09:17, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Eh, maybe I did not parse it correctly or completely. Thanks for the clarification. --Dirk Beetstra 10:11, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really bothered if you apologiɀe or not, the few genuine apologies I have received on Wikipdia have raised people in my estimation substantially (most of these have been driven off the project needless to say). I am not asking here for either of the things you talk about, I am saying that you should apologiɀe as a matter of self respect, and respect for others. If you don't have that respect fine. As for revisions to the case I will use the normal channels for that, and your strange Morton's Fork above can sit unanswered. Rich Farmbrough, 19:22, 28 May 2012 (UTC).

Dispute resolution notice

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is "The Black Album/Come On Feel the Dandy Warhols". Thank you. --Neuroticguru (talk) 16:44, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but a) I don't consider myself all that involved, and b) it looks more like a user conduct issue than an actual dispute. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 04:50, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

your assistance please...

In August of 2010 you deleted the article Dirty thirty (Vietnam) as an expired prod. Unfortunately, whoever placed that prod didn't bother to leave a heads-up on my talk page, and I only became aware of the deletion now.

I request userification to User:Geo Swan/userified 2012-05/Dirty thirty (Vietnam) please. Geo Swan (talk) 19:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

FWIW a few seconds with google finds lots of replacement references -- nominator might benefit from re-reading WP:BEFORE , .

I don't userify prods--I put them back in mainspace. You're free to move it to your userspace for work, but as of now it's back in mainspace. Feel free to commence upgrade work on it. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 20:40, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Input

Look at One Sonic Society, and tell me what you think of it now?HotHat (talk) 21:41, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Looks substantially better than any of the previous versions, and sufficiently different that G4 deletion would be inappropriate. Keep up the good work! Jclemens (talk) 23:28, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

FYI

Apparently Arm's politics are bubbling over onto Misplaced Pages a bit. Whee. —chaos5023 (talk) 23:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Armageddon has the most odd combination of drama and survivability I've ever seen. It must be 20 years old now, and it still keeps going... Surprised that sort of thing hasn't happened on-Wiki before now, actually. Jclemens (talk) 23:29, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

how I think you should have done it

sent it as a notice to alert admins that such a thing had happened. DGG ( talk ) 23:58, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Yep, there's definitely a rush to defend established contributors, even when they're clearly in the wrong. Improving Misplaced Pages through pointing out inappropriate conduct has not been working too well for me lately. We'll see how the next ArbCom election deals with things--not just for me, but for the newcomers who've also been very willing to sanction established contributors. Jclemens (talk) 08:28, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Meaning of synthesis

Please see WP:SYNTH for what synthesis means. I have reverted your change to WP:SS. Synthesis is the sticking together of bits which were never meant to imply something, not that the stuff doesn't exist. There is no need to reiterate that guideline in WP:SS and it is only there to effect a synthesis. Dmcq (talk) 01:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, you didn't revert me, you reverted the next editor. Given how widespread the misunderstanding is--that notability limits article contents--I think it appropriately belongs in WP:SS. While you're entitled to an opinion that it does not belong there, I would encourage you to not edit war to keep a reference to a relevant policy out... Jclemens (talk) 01:09, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

J, this is now 3 reverts by Dmcq in 2 edit sets, refusal to discuss on Misplaced Pages talk:Summary style (please see), two edit summaries that I consider personal attacks, and unclear objection to a verbatim two sentences of WP:N. What should I do? Thanks. JJB 01:20, 27 May 2012 (UTC) Never mind, now at ANI, I will mention your name, thanks. JJB 01:24, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Engage him on his talk page. Try and find a middle ground that addresses everyone's objections. Failing that, I'm sure you know about the dispute resolution process--whatever you do, don't edit war. The person who edit wars over policy is automagically presumed to be the loser. Jclemens (talk) 01:28, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

No thanks. There was a centralized discussion at WP:VPP where he couldf have given his reasons for inconsistency saying he believed notability was required and then sticking that into WP:SS. I have now raised the question of his behaviour at if you really feel like standing up for him or for sticking a thing implying notability is not relevant into that guideline. It has had for a long time a bit about notability saying 'Editors are cautioned not to immediately split articles if the new article would meet neither the general notability criterion nor the specific notability criteria for their topic. Instead, editors are encouraged to work on further developing the main article first, locating coverage that applies to both the main topic and the subtopic' It is ambiguous about whether notability is required for subtopics and I see no reason for someone to say it expressly is not required in that guideline without being very certain that is common practice. As far as I can see the move was inspitred by some people at wanting to do an end run round notability by saying individual events in a series didn't need notability only the overall series. Dmcq (talk) 01:38, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

What you're saying about policy is true, but it's only half of the situation. I've seen people split things out, and then someone else asserts non-notability and argues for deletion of the spinout article because it's not notable. In fact, things spun out prematurely and without sufficient notability for the subtopic should be merged back into the parent article. Highlighting WP:NNC appropriately in WP:SS seems the best way to educate users about the difference between something that doesn't merit its own article, and something that should be deleted as inappropriate content. Jclemens (talk) 01:45, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

As I pointed out to you the guideline already says 'Editors are cautioned not to immediately split articles if the new article would meet neither the general notability criterion nor the specific notability criteria for their topic. Instead, editors are encouraged to work on further developing the main article first, locating coverage that applies to both the main topic and the subtopic' which I believe covers that exact point. The guideline is about summaries and setting up subtopics but I guess what you say could be put into a section about possible merging back. However that is not at all how it was put into the guideline. Dmcq (talk) 03:04, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Anyway I'll take you off my watchlist now as I've taken up enough of your talk page, that was about the subject rather than anything personal and I don't want to turn it into a wall of text like happened at VPP!. Dmcq (talk) 03:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I really don't mind continuing the discussion. Once I make an edit which is reverted, I would much, much rather discuss the issues--and here is as good a place as any. I find that I prefer discussing 1:1 or 2:1 like this, because it's easier to ferret out what the real differences are and work towards a solution that answers everyone's objections. Jclemens (talk) 04:29, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Well I did have a look for a reply :) Thanks for that offer, in general I'm happy to go on about how things work or ways to do things or a bit of general waffle or even a few days of a one to one dispute, but I have this thing against meatpuppetry and canvassing and groupthink so for longer or wider disputes I try for transparency as far as possible - so I try to practice what I preach as far as talking about articles or policies is concerned. Dmcq (talk) 10:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

That makes sense. I'm so much drowning in watchlist that I occasionally miss important discussions on policy pages I care about, though, so while I would personally prefer your approach, I am entirely willing to forego my voice being heard on the policy page, if the disputant(s) can work out differences here. As long as someone gets the change "right", it doesn't matter who gets the credit. Jclemens (talk) 18:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

N has been discussed by the MMA people for months or years. My unique attempt at mediation (which Dmcq calls an "end run") was essentially my own idea from my knowledge of policy, not that of the MMA project. Jclemens is essentially correct but there is much more to the story at VPP. JJB 02:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm intentionally ignorant about the MMA world and the disputes surrounding its events' representation on Misplaced Pages; I have the bad feeling that it will end up at ArbCom sooner or later, and I have no intention of wading into it prematurely. What I'm basing my statements on is fictional elements, which are my own area of greatest interest (and would already be recused in any case arriving before ArbCom). Jclemens (talk) 02:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Cold revert by Dennis

Sorry to have involved you tangentially in MMA when you might have thought you were "only" making a simple policy improvement edit. Presuming on your invitation to discuss, I think Dennis's reversion, along with his subtext that sounds to me like a threat of tools, is worthy of discussion. If I tried DR as you suggest, I might be at Medcab e.g. trying to explain why 2 sentences of WP:N should be in WP:SS and why Dmcq has offered no reasons why not, along with why Dennis's whole setting the clock back 2 weeks should also be undone, and I would hate to initiate that discussion where your name might be drawn in and smeared with the MMA brush (as mine now has after a completely neutral start). Since you had a preferred version that Dennis has reverted, and he also seems to be hinting a nascent contradiction to your initial statement that this is not a matter for tools, I am hopeful you can provide a quantum of guidance. JJB 22:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

When I edit policies, I do so as a user with 4+ years active and involved experience dealing with the nuances, not with any of the funny, special hats on. I don't know that I had a specific "preferred" version, while I do have a general agreement that WP:NNC should be added to WP:SS, because split/merge discussions should not degenerate into deletion, but rather un-splitting, merging, would be the preferred remedy. I have no desire to involve myself in the specifics as it applies to MMA or any sporting events whatsoever, which are not areas of my own particular expertise. Jclemens (talk) 23:43, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Community confidence

I believe you have lost community confidence as a Checkuser and Arbiter. Under what circumstances would you step down? Hipocrite (talk) 10:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I believe the community confidence in you is unshaken, and, in fact, is getting stronger. The use of sniping by any editor or sadmin is something I fear is intended to force you to recuse in cases involving them, which is cointrary to the intent of the pillars of Misplaced Pages, the policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, and quite importantly contrary to the policies and procedures governing the acts of ArbCom in itself. (bolding intentional) Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC) Collect (talk) 11:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Agreed.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 11:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

To alleviate Collect's concern, I do not believe you have an obligation to recuse in a case involving me unless it also involves you as a party. I merely wish to determine what would cause you to resign from the committee - a talk page petition? an RFC? a full case? Hipocrite (talk) 11:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

By all means start an RFC/U on Mr. Clemens. I suggest you might not appreciate the results. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:38, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Speaking as part of the community, I'm not aware of anything which would lead me to lose confidence in Jclemens (as a checkuser or arbitrator or anything else). I suppose you could lay out the details for us, though. Oh, and I think "a talk page petition" would be a pretty silly idea. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:34, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

To answer the original question, the circumstances in which I would step down include...

• If I've lost the confidence of the community, and am not reelected.
• If I've lost the confidence of the rest of the committee, and am asked to step down. While the committee may remove me by vote, my threshold for stepping down in the face of peer-based opposition is much lower.
• If I lose the ability to tolerate when consensus is against me. Or, if I find I've lost the will to continue to propose difficult actions that are necessary for the continued health of the encyclopedia. This is a really important point: anyone in a position of "authority" on Misplaced Pages needs to balance their belief in the appropriateness of their viewpoints with the consensus process, and be able to tell the difference between a few vocal individuals griping and true community consensus. Likewise, if I'm not being opposed by anyone, then I've just become a rubber stamp, exercising no initiative and doing no one any good.
• If my personal circumstances change such that I'm not able to devote the amount of time I believe appropriate to Misplaced Pages.
• If I ever catch myself thinking of myself as a master of Misplaced Pages, rather than its servant.

If I'm not doing something "wrong" occasionally, then I must not be trying hard enough. Jclemens (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh, another thing to keep aware of: I never have had more than, what, 60% support in the two elections in which I've been elected to the committee. So the fact that a large number of wikipedians do not favor me having a position on the committee (or liked other candidates better, etc.) is simply part of the background under which I serve all Wikipedians. If I wanted to be popular, I wouldn't be first to address problems, proposals, and the like. I'd be a lot more... deliberative, like several of the more popular arbitrators are. While I appreciate the value of such detached consideration and realize its necessity, in isolation it really would not help move cases along, nor identify and solve problems. Inasmuch as the committee ever uses anything resembling Good cop/bad cop, I'm the "bad cop". The analogy isn't really apt, though, since we aren't manipulating any interrogations--we're just trying to get to the right answer for the encyclopedia as expeditiously as possible. I have no illusions that my popularity has anything but plummeted by my doing my job in the way I promised to in my election statements... But that's what I signed up for, and I anticipate discharging those duties to the best of my ability through the end of my elected term. Jclemens (talk) 19:58, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Nicely put, that balance between pushing forward and leading from behind is always necessary in a community. B——C_ritical 21:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Hipocrite here. Anyone who has seen you working of the last few days, in relation to Mathsci and with your strange "apology or re-litigation" question, would have to question your WP:COMPETENCE. Also you just voted in direct opposition to your stated position. You are leaving some very puzzled editors here. Rich Farmbrough, 01:05, 29 May 2012 (UTC).

Request for Arbitration regarding GoodDay

As can be seen from his edit history and the user box he added to his user talk page, GoodDay's preferred edits are gnomish ones, applying small corrections repetitively. He is willing to take on tasks that others may find dull, and in this way can contribute positively to Misplaced Pages. I do not believe a complete ban is warranted; I think a limitation, with specified penalties, on being involved in his hot button issues may be more suitable. isaacl (talk) 01:22, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

This looks like the sort of input that should go on the case request page to make sure it's visible by all arbitrators. Would you mind if I moved it? Jclemens (talk) 01:45, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm a bit torn between a desire to avoid the arbitration pages (which seem to breed combative behaviour) and a wish to find a way to keep GoodDay as productive as possible and not banned completely. Resolute has posted a very good statement on the request page which I hope will be given due consideration. However, I will give more thought to posting a statement as well. isaacl (talk) 02:02, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I've noticed your thoughtful contributions there, and thank you for taking the time to speak your mind on this topic. Moderate voices from the community like yours should be better represented in arbitration proceedings than they are. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 21:55, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

2008–09 Liga Indonesia Premier Division

Please restore that article, thanks.*Annas* (talk) 06:24, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Done. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 06:40, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Your conduct

• Leon Gonsalez (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jello carotids (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

A senior administrator and checkuser Deskana has indicated that the information I provided about these two sockpuppets in 2 recent SPI reports, per  Sounds like a duck quacking into a megaphone to me, was adequate without checkuser or further investigations for identifying this long-term wikihounding socking troll. In these circumstances of blatant immediately identifiable sockpuppetry, what precisely was your reason for spending so much time suggesting otherwise and making sneering innuendos about my conduct vis-a-vis the edits of these blatant sockpuppets? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 15:16, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't recall the Gonsalez account. Can you link to what I said about it?

On Jello carotids, here's how it went: Somehow, I noticed that you'd reverted someone else in an SPI on yourself. I believe I did that because I saw something else interesting you'd done, and that caused me to look into your recent contributions roughly 48 hours ago. I looked at the reversion you'd made, and found that it contained a plausible assertion of wrongdoing on your part: that is, it asserted you were keeping evidence against other users, after a case had concluded, in violation of WP:UP#POLEMIC (clauses 2 and 3 being the relevant ones). I investigated the assertions and came to the conclusion that they represented actual wrongdoing on your part, which made your action in reverting them impermissible and a further wrong.

WP:BAN says anyone can revert anything a banned user says at any time. But, like "AGF is not a suicide pact", neither is WP:BAN. It was never proper for you, the accused editor, who was guilty of the conduct asserted as improper, to remove the accusation of that impropriety from your own SPI page. That is, at that point, the SPI on Mathsci is not about Jello carotids--whose SPI I never challenged or changed in any way--but about your own improper behavior. Since I found that he had a legitimate basis for complaint against you, I reverted both the removal and the archiving of the case per Misplaced Pages:BAN#Edits by and on behalf of banned editors, although "on behalf of" a banned editor is tenuous, because I was more interested in your behavior than the presumed-sock edits.

Further, rather than saying "Wow, you're right, someone else should have reverted that, since I did actually maintain that account, but for really good reasons which I'll email Arbcom about", you repeatedly made false statements that you had never reverted in your own SPI. The fact that your two messages after you were caught keeping evidence post-case was auto-discarded by our mailing list software is entirely regrettable, and would have helped clear up the matter many hours sooner, but to summarize, you did three things wrong in this case, the first two of which are each a root cause: had you not done either one, the SPI would not have been unarchived and pursued as it was:

1) You maintained evidence on a "hidden" page after the R&I review was closed,

2) You reverted another user, sockpuppet or not, who made an accurate observation in the proper venue that you had engaged in the condct in 1) and a policy based argument that it was impermissible, and

3) You made materially false statements in the SPI about your conduct in 2).

At any rate, I hope the recap provides enough illustration for why I took action on the basis of a banned user's complaint. Given that ArbCom's got a number of things on its plate right now, an ArbCom motion will not likely be immediately forthcoming--especially since a block is not a likely outcome in light of ArbCom's mailing list failure which delayed our receiving your explanation through no fault of yours. I believe you've received a separate email from one of our mailing list administrators confirming that problem.

You have my most sincere apologies for both the mailing list error and the fact that you've been subjected to repeated harassment by sockpuppets. I sincerely regret that you took action in light of the latter which was itself impermissible. Jclemens (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Jclemens you are an official checkuser. The blatant sockpuppet whom you enabled started by uncollapsing the edits of the first sockpuppet, whom I have mentioned several times, including in the recent email to arbcom (it's has been re-sent and forwarded to you). That first sockpuppet was indefinitely blocked by FPaS for adding trolling comment to WP:AN about Echigo mole and all his past manifestations. One account not mentioned by me was Junior Wrangler, but the socks decided nevertheless to inform him of the WP:AN report. So, per  Sounds like a duck quacking into a megaphone to me, the coupled contributions, one even making reference to the previously blocked account, deafeningly screamed "Echigo mole." Everybody else agreed, including Deskana. So with your own experience you also should have noticed that without any effort. But you chose not to and stubbornly took the side of the blatant troll, ignoring the previous account he had to abandon after it had been indefinitely blocked. Once the banned editor was identified, his edits could be removed anywhere per WP:BAN and WP:DENY. An SPI report is not necessary, if the sockpuppetry is blatant, which was the case here (an AN thread about Echigo mole).

I have no alternative hidden accounts since they were all declared unambiguously on the user pages and their edits were purely in user space. The userpage Alternative-mathsci for example has "as it says". You are presumably joking, as MastCell has already said, when you suggest that the account Aixoisie involved any level of concealment because of the dots between the letters of Mathsci. Other administrators understood that I used that device because of the previous actions of Echigo mole (as Southend sofa) who requested an SPI report on 29 March. Did you even look at it? The existence of a list of rough diffs in an alternative account was mentioned explicitly on the arbitration review pages on 27 March and must have prompted Echigo mole to search for it.

Did you read that comment on the talk page of the evidence page of the review then? If you did and you now have such severe misgivings about gathering diffs to prepare evidence (OMG what a crime once evidence has been explicitly requested!), why did you not mention that then? You had ample time and, as other administrators have said, if you wanted to know about the account then you could quite easily have requested information then. But apparently you did not object to Alternative-mathsci then; but now do object violently to the almost identical account Aixoisie.

If on the other hand you did not read that comment, that is not a good sign. I don't see the difference between Alternative-mathsci and Aixioisie. When Echigo mole's sock Southend sofa filed the first SPI report on 29 March, three other administrators looked at the account Alternative-mathsci (Dougweller, Amalthea, DeltaQuad) with all the lists of rough diffs before they were deleted and moved. They found no problem. The lists of rough diffs were preparatory pages for evidence which was hard to compile. Multiple other editors including almost all arbitrators recognize Echigo mole as a malevolent editor, set on creating trouble. You apparently found it convenient not to recognize that; that has resulted in you acting as his enabler, possibly unwittingly. Old-time administrators dealt with the report of Southend sofa, dismissing it immediately; your treatment of the almost carbon copy report of Jello carotids was leagues apart. There was drama-creating rhetoric, a draconian full protection of files (totally unnecessary for future scrutiny), a checkuser hold on the SPI report with repeated claims of "abusive alternative accounts". No other administrators have agreed with you so far and, when they disagreed at the 2nd SPI report by the banned user, you even made threats towards them by trying to assert some higher authority. Enabling banned disruptive users just brings this project into disrepute. Splitting hairs over which particular edits of banned editors can be reverted is open to debate: if there is a list of multiple trolling edits, I don't think in great detail about the difference between each edit (as the timing of my reverts shows). Future Perfect at Sunrise deleted the whole SPI report with an edit summary indicating that it had been posted by a banned editor. Instead of having a calm discussion with FPaS about that very dubious SPI report, you chose to follow a drama-creating route. Almost all administrators have disagreed with the path you followed and you have ignored them. Mathsci (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Three things you should have said above, but didn't:

1) "I'm sorry for retaining evidence after the case review was closed; it was improper for me to do so in-any on-wiki location"

2) "I regret reverting that among the sockpuppet edits I reverted, was that of a legitimate complaint about my actions in retaining evidence after the case review was closed. It gave the appearance that I was trying to hide something, which I was not--I was just being so thorough in reverting the edits that I failed to notice that the one edit was in an SPI on me."

3) "I regret that my statements about not reverting the sock in my own SPI were inaccurate. I was thinking you'd confused my reversion in the Echigo Mole SPI, but I was mistaken."

And, for good measure, you might add...

4) "I should have explicitly declared Aixoisie to the arbitration committee per WP:SOCK#NOTIFY as soon as it was created; while not required, adopting that best practice would have avoided this misunderstanding"

Until and unless you can accept that your actions caused this problem, there's really nothing else to say here. You're focusing on things that aren't even in dispute (of course it was a sock) or simply aren't relevant to your own misconduct. Jclemens (talk) 18:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Now you are demanding apologies form Mathsci, yet you won't apologize for outright lies about me? Some mistake surely. Rich Farmbrough, 19:39, 28 May 2012 (UTC).

Well, I neither demanded anything from him, nor refused to apologize to you. I asked above if an apology is more important than re-litigating your case, and you declined to answer. If you'd like your apology, simply clarify that that, rather than any relitigation of a closed case, is what you're most interested in, and you'll have it. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 21:52, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

This is a rather pathological position. Re-litigation is not in your gift, and an apology would be good for you not me. So why do you insist on repeating this odd question? Rich Farmbrough, 01:02, 29 May 2012 (UTC).

Jonathan I understand you're a graduate student and it's great to see how full of ideas you are. I am not sure what statement I would make. All your suggestions seem to be nutty and ill-conceived. I have no idea what put those silly ideas in your head. I might possibly say, "I am disappointed in the actions of Jonathan Clemens. He appears to be nursing a grudge following his re-election to arbcom and his mistaken trust in two users, now both site-banned from wikipedia, who were involved in a calculated deception. Jonathan's reaction has been to show that I have been involved in an even worse act of deception in meticulously chronicling their actions. I have gathered diffs in clearly marked alternative accounts, which he has repeatedly described as "abusive". Multiple other adminstrators have expressed disagreement with him but he has attempted to assert his own greater authority over them." But would it really be necessary to say that? Best in the circumstances to say nothing. Mathsci (talk) 03:59, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

The problem with your proposed statements is that they assume bad faith in me, while mine assume the best faith of you. I've dropped the arguable bits, such that the facts as I stated them really aren't in dispute: You kept evidence after the case was over, you reverted a sockpuppet who pointed that out, and you still haven't owned up to making false statements about doing so. And, for the record, I neither hold grudges nor play favorites. That Ferahgo/CO adequately helped out with parsing evidence in a prior case gained them zero special treatment, just as your predominantly accurate and helpful efforts identifying problematic editors in certain areas don't give you a pass. Jclemens (talk) 04:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately once you start relying on the edits of a long term abusive editor like Echigo mole to support your arguments, any assumptions of good faith disappear through a large hole in the ground. You've been told that repeatedly by administrators and your reaction has been WP:IDHT. Why all the needless drama. Jonathan? The page protections, the restoration of a bogus SPI and your own bullying of administrators and me as if you are some kind of Uebermensch? No you have sought to portray me in the worst possible light you could, taking advantage of a long-term trolling sock. No thanks, matey. Mathsci (talk) 04:19, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

One of the problems the real-life police have to deal with all the time is that many of the witnesses to and victims of crimes are themselves criminals, prone to lie to the police when it is to their advantage, yet real life authorities work within this world effectively. In this case, your initial inappropriate retention of material was spotted by a serial, abusive sockmaster... but that doesn't make the observation inaccurate. You act as if I've somehow elevated Echigo Mole to sainthood and handed him a full pardon for finding something you'd really done wrong. On the contrary--he's still banned, still going to be reverted every time he appears, and as far as I'm concerned nothing has changed about his status. It's your status, (can I use your first name here, since you've used mine?), that has been diminished by your conduct. Jclemens (talk) 04:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Did you read the statement about the alternative account that I wrote on March 27? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 04:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

As for using my first name, would you even dare do that? Your first name has been used elsewhere on wikipedia, but if you prefer me not to use it, I won't. Please just say so. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 04:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

It begins with "A" . 94.197.232.71 (talk) 06:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Did you declare the name to ArbCom in email prior to its discovery? No, unless far more mail is missing than previously ascertained. Did you seek or receive permission to keep evidence on-wiki past the close of the case? Not to the best of my knowledge. Please, correct me if I'm wrong on either point.

As far as the names business goes, I don't recall where I've ever posted my first name on enwiki. I know others with whom I've corresponded elsewhere have used a first name to refer to me. Jclemens (talk) 04:53, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

You're not answering the question. Your were told explicitly on wikipedia on 27 March that alternative account existed. They were clearly labelled and restricted to userspace. The notification was very visible on the arbcom review page. You or any other arbitrator could have requested to have the account identified in private if you required. You did nothing then. As far as I am aware, there is no automatic obligation to send any notification to arbcom about alternative accounts. Which piece of wikipedia policy are you citing there? If any arbitrator had wanted to know details of the account, I would have told them, as I have done now. But nobody asked. The existence of these account does not seem problematic and nor does your qulifier "abusive" apply. Because of Echigo mole's first trolling SPI report on 29 March, the first alternative account was looked at by 3 administrators, including a checkuser, and they found no problem. So why are you are making these claims of "abusive alternative accounts" continually? Mathsci (talk) 05:07, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Besides if you reslly believed that the accounts were abusive and created to mislead and deceive other wikipedians, you would have blocked those accounts and mine. If you did that, however, you would not remain an administrator for very much longer. Please stop bullying me. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 05:11, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I never denied that you mentioned an alternative account; I've stated that you didn't declare the name to ArbCom. This is primarily important because it kept me looking into the allegations. One of the first things I did after I spotted your reversion on your SPI was to search my Misplaced Pages mail archives for the name Aixoisie--and I didn't find it. Had I found it, my review of your reverting an accusation against yourself on your SPI page would have probably ended right there. But I didn't find it, so I kept looking, and found the quite extensive copies of evidence that were the problem. If you will, maintaining lists of diffs absent a current proceeding was the main problem, and the fact that it was as lightly linked and declared as possible was merely the aggravating circumstance surrounding the discovery of that improper use. You may well have been trying to hide it from Echigo Mole, which you appear to have failed at, but you also gave no evidence of having declared it to ArbCom. Had you done so, someone might have reminded you to delete the evidence pages. Jclemens (talk) 05:16, 29 May 2012 (UTC

If you or anybody else wanted to know the name of the account you have my email and could have asked. There's no rule about declaring accounts to arbcom if they're clearly labelled. Certainly any trusted editor would have been told, if they had asked. Ferahgo seems to be posting below once more through her proxy-editor TrevelyanL85A2. Why did they choose your page? Were they hoping that you would block me? That is certainly how it looks. Ferahgo's claim to have left wikipedia behind seems not to have been genuine, like much of what she has written. Mathsci (talk) 05:28, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced that Ferahgo and Captain Occam are indeed separate persons. Jclemens (talk) 05:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

How interesting. Mathsci (talk) 05:37, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Banned user posts

I would like arbcom to make a ruling about when it's necessary to revert posts from a banned user, and when it's acceptable to not do that. I had another issue with this yesterday when Mathsci and one other person tag-teamed to remove a post by Echigo Mole from my user talk, after I'd made it clear I didn't mind it being there and that I didn't want Mathsci editing my page. This also was before the sockpuppet had been blocked or tagged by anyone besides Mathsci. They claimed their actions were demanded by policy, but that doesn't seem right: I thought I had the right to determine things like this about my own userspace.

In the edit summary for one of his reverts, Mathsci suggested I ask a member of arbcom about this, which also confuses me because I know individual arbitrators don't have special authority when they aren't speaking for the whole committee. Is there a way to get the committee to weigh in on this issue?TrevelyanL85A2 (talk) 05:12, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

The relevant guidance is at Misplaced Pages:BAN#Edits by and on behalf of banned editors. In short, while Mathsci and other editors have the right to revert banned user edits, you have the ability to re-revert them into Misplaced Pages, at which point they become your responsibility, so be very careful about potential problems with them. The advisability of this is questionable, but you're asking for the rules, and there you have them. Oh, and no, no one is REQUIRED to revert a banned user, so they do have a choice not to. If you asked everyone inclined to leave your talk page alone, and yet they continued to revert banned user(s) posting there, that would be an interesting situation, that I don't see any precedent for... but I believe the community would likely let BAN dominate, since by definition conversations with a banned user can't involve improving the encyclopedia. So, now you have my opinion as well.

My advice on the other hand: if you want to carry on a conversation with a banned user, use email. There are free and anonymous email providers everywhere. Much less hassle for everyone involved. Jclemens (talk) 05:23, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Tag team? Nice one, Ferahgo. Mathsci (talk) 05:54, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

The relevant policy appears to be WP:HUSH, which states that such messages should be referred to an admin. Mathsci knows perfectly well that his presence on T's talk page is unwelcome and harassing, as M is engaged in a sustained campaign ("grim determination") to drive T off Wikopedia. We see the continuation of his campaign on this very page, where he is starting up a new rhetorical meme, that T is simply FTA under another name. No such finding was made in the Review, and no such finding has been made at SPI, and indeed no editor other than M has ever made this allegation. But M, if left unchecked, will continue to reiterate it at every opportunity until the rest of the community comes to believe that it must be true. Surely M's statements on this page, that T is proxying for a banned user, constitute a serious personal attack? Why is this behaviour tolerated? 94.197.232.71 (talk) 06:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Your untruths

Let me perfectly clear, I have no intention, now or in the future, to sue you or other Misplaced Pages editors for slander or libel made on Misplaced Pages. That does not mean I will not clearly label it as such. Running to NLT for protection from your own behaviour is not becoming. Rich Farmbrough, 19:46, 28 May 2012 (UTC).

That's good to hear, and what I expected. I further expect you won't object to keeping a more neutral tone on the subject heading in order to avoid confusing people who don't actually read this notice. Frankly, I'm concerned that that edit almost seemed an attempt at suicide-by-arbcom, and encourage you to avoid such escalation. By all means, take a break if you're not feeling up to participating appropriately at the moment, and come back when you're feeling like creating content. The fact you still insist on calling illustrations "untruths" is something I don't find promising, but if that's what helps you work through this time, I'll agree to disagree on it. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 21:49, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

False illustrations are false. I'm sure it's usual to quietly let minor falsehoods slip away, into the mists of time, but I have found that on Misplaced Pages they are then dragged up years later and believed by no less august personages as Arbitrators. Therefore I intend be active in correcting them whenever I see them occur, if this makes a little less easy to get on with than the old Rich who would have just said, "sure you want to make stuff up, go ahead, it doesn't affect me" then that is the fault of those who promulgate and believe such tosh. Rich Farmbrough, 00:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC).

So, would you like me to go back and edit my statement to make it more accurate, like I asked your input on a week ago? Oh, wait... you've already done that, rather than specify what you believe would have been an adequate substitution--an edit I did not contest, I'll note. At any rate, since you've deleted the illustrative statement that you believe to have painted you in an inappropriately false light and have yet to specify an apology as your most desired outcome, I think we're done here. Again, you have my best wishes for your continued contributions to the encyclopedia, if you ever choose to focus on doing so rather than on attempting to find fault in the processes and persons responsible for sanctioning you. Jclemens (talk) 04:23, 29 May 2012 (UTC)