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Resource-based economy

• Resource-based economy (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

This dispute only concerns the section titled 'Alternative use' on Resource-based economy. A paragraph based on citations from verifiable, reliable sources has been repeatedly deleted.

• This is a showing the paragraph.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk · contribs)
• OpenFuture (talk · contribs)
• Earl King Jr. (talk · contribs)
• Bobrayner (talk · contribs)
• Night of the Big Wind (talk · contribs)

From looking at the talk page, OpenFuture and Earl King Jr. seem to have been involved with the article since at least 26 February 2012 and 12 March 2012‎, respectively. From the first day of their involvement in the article to date, the only major edits these two editors provided have been deletions/ reversions of edits. The deleted/ reverted edits were based on citations from verifiable, reliable sources. Their actions always reverted the article back to its skeletal, bare-bones, un-encyclopedic form.

Starting on 12 May 2012,‎ I began the process of providing several additional verifiable, reliable sources, and began to cite from these sources. Essentially all these citings have been deleted/ reverted by the two users above, always reverting the article back to its skeletal, bare-bones, un-encyclopedic form.

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Resource-based economy}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I tried to resolve this dispute many times on the talk page of Resource-based economy. Each time, the substance of my comments have been ignored (the two editors mentioned above have not responded to the substance of my arguments explaining that the paragraph above is neutral, and that the paragraph is fully supported by the set of sources referenced at the end of the paragraph). Instead, the editors frequently voiced their personal opinions (not based on WP policies, rules, regulations or guidelines), or repeatedly used the talk page of the article as a forum for general discussion of the article's subject, instead of discussing specific, concrete, substantive issues directly related to improving the encyclopedic content of the article.

(Please note that some parts of the conversations on the talk page focused on issues related to the fact that I translated two verifiable, reliable foreign-language sources and used the translations (in addition to several verifiable, reliable English-language sources) to support my edits. You can probably ignore the substance of these particular portions of the conversations because over the last 2 days, with the help of editor CambridgeBayWeather, we seem to have resolved the issue of the translations, with the final result apparently being that the foreign-language sources can be used in citations and quotations to support my edits.)

Here are some talk-page diffs:

• How do you think we can help?

Assess the merits of my edit. Determine (or recommend) which part(s), if any, of my suggested edits (the paragraph above providing an alternative definition of RBE) are not supported by the set of sources. If my suggested edits are inadequate to describe the alternative usage of RBE, suggest a proper alternative definition of RBE, based strictly on citations from the sources (referenced at the end of my suggested paragraph): The New York Times, The Huffington Post, The Palm Beach Post, The Orlando Sentinel, TheMarker, Globes (which are all verifiable, reliable secondary sources) and The Venus Project (a primary source). (Or, of course, any additional verifiable, reliable sources that describe the Technocracy Movement's, the Venus Project's and the Zeitgeist Movement's alternative usage of the term 'RBE', such as the six TV interviews listed on the Peter Joseph web site, etc.)

Thank you.

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 05:48, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Resource-based economy discussion

IjonTichyIjonTichy has no sources that support his changes. He adds a massive amount of sources, none which define Resource-based economy as he defines it. At best it is therefore WP:Synthesis.

We are also at least four editors that agree on a "best last version" that we want to use as the basis for improving the article, and we have asked IjonTichyIjonTichy to explain what he thinks is wrong with that version so we can discuss how to improve it, but IjonTichyIjonTichy refuses to engage in constructive debate, and even admits this on the talk page. The result was an edit war, but the page is currently protected to stop his repeated edits against consensus, so that is currently under control. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:08, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

(I added bobrayner and Night of The Big Wind as involved, and notified them, as they also have reverted IjonTichyIjonTichy's changes back to a "last good version", and hence also reasonably are involved in this). --OpenFuture (talk) 06:16, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Well put by User:OpenFuture: almost certainly WP:SYNTHESIS; 8 references for the last sentence, 2 references for the first sentence in the proposed section and everything else in the proposed section unsourced.Curb Chain (talk) 07:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

My involvement with the article is due to an earlier editwar at the article. I rewrote the article to a short version giving more honour to the original meaning of Resource Based Economy (an economy built on production and export of raw materials like ore and oil) instead of the Resource Based Economy theory from mr. Fresco/Venus Project/Zeitgeist Movement. As a compromise I have balanced both evenly. Reason for that is that the economy based explanation is far older and widespread, both on the internet rather poorly sourced. The ideology seems to be a tiny local project, capable of generating a enormous amount of publicity. Even with the balancing act, I regard the economy based explanation as severely undervalued in the article. The ideology I regard as severely overvalued. So when complainant added a total of 1,402 bytes (about 45%, previous size of the article was 3,114 bytes) to the article, all added to the ideology section, I removed that as giving undue weight to the ideology. And I still stand for that. Night of the Big Wind _talk 10:17, 28 May 2012 (UTC) after that, I took a break from the article

Complainant seems to be extremely interested in having been editing heavely on several RBE-ideology related pages. Is it possible for the complainant to explain his involvement in the Zeitgeist Movement (and related subjects), because of a possible Conflict of Interest? Night of the Big Wind _talk 10:26, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

There is no conflict of interest. I developed the Zeitgeist Movement article from a skeletal, un-encyclopedic version into something closer to an encyclopedic article. (It is not perfect but it is a huge improvement over the original.) In my edits, I included many citations and quotations from reliable sources providing relatively extensive criticism of many aspects of RBE (and TZM). IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:30, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Page has been protected for 72 hours because of edit warring. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:12, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I placed the protection, and any admin here is free to modify or remove without additional notification. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 11:35, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the page history, the protection was clearly the right thing to do. I am not going to name names at this point, but if an editor is edit warring, he/she needs to figure out a better way to resolve disputes. Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution is ab excellent place to start learning. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:55, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

The editor in question could start with answering the questions posed to him. Like "What is wrong with the current version". He still hasn't answered that. --OpenFuture (talk) 16:08, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

OpenFuture has been spamming my user talk page. I've removed his numerous comments but he keeps on spamming. What can be done to stop his Ad hominem attacks? Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:46, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

This is untrue, and irrelevant for this dispute resolution. As it says above: "Please keep discussions here calm, concise, and on topic.". --OpenFuture (talk) 17:38, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

OpenFuture continues to spam my user talk page. Can someone stop him please? IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:00, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

No, he is asking you to stop your personal attacks. Instead of doing so, you start censoring your talkpage from the inconvenient truth. Night of the Big Wind _talk 19:22, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

It is also an outright lie, as you can see from the timestamps. I have in no way continued to do anything at his talk page after my comment above. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:45, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Time stamp of my first request to stop spamming is 16:46, 28 May

Time stamp of is 17:25, 28 May

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I am a volunteer clerk/mediator here at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. The Dispute Resolution Noticeboard is for discussing disputes about article content, nor disputes about user conduct. If you are in a dispute about what is in the article, discuss what is in the article, not what other editors are doing or have done. If your dispute is only about user conduct, let us know and we will close this and point you to the right place to resolve that kind of dispute. If you think you have both kinds of dispute, put the editor conduct dispute on hold and work on the article conduct dispute.

I will have more to say on the actual article content dispute after I have studied the issue more. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:56, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Here are three proposals for inclusion as the 'Alternative use' section of Resource-based economy. (Of course the references would need to be re-positioned to the end of sentences (etc.) to make the paragraph easier to read, including the bank of references at the end of the paragraph, and the spaces between references would need to be removed, etc.) IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Proposal no. 1: The paragraph I proposed above in this DRN request.

Proposal no. 2: A resource-based economy (RBE) can also mean a holistic global system in which all resources become the common heritage of all the inhabitants of the planet. The Technocracy movement (TTM), the Venus project (TVP) and the Zeitgeist movement (TZM) use this alternative definition of RBE to mean a classless, moneyless, and stateless global system in which money, debt, credit, exchange, barter, wage labor (or any other system of servitude), private property and the profit motive would serve no purpose and all human needs such as food, housing, goods, services, etc. would be available to everyone and everything is supplied. In an RBE, resources would be managed as efficiently and carefully as possible through focusing on the technological potential of sustainable development. The premise upon which this global socio-economic system is based is the belief of TTM, TVP and TZM that the intelligent application of highly advanced science and technology can enable an Earth that is abundant with plentiful resources, enabling a high standard of living for all of the Earth's inhabitants, and thus TTM, TVP and TZM believe that our current practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival. It is toward this RBE idea that TTM, TVP and TZM work to educate and inform people. TTM, TVP and TZM believe that in RBE can create a sustainable future where humanity is not united by religious or political ideology, but by the scientific method, venerated as the savior that can develop a system of human equality, thriving from the cooperation and balance of technology and nature.

Proposal no. 3: A resource-based economy (RBE) can also mean a holistic global system in which all resources become the common heritage of all the inhabitants of the planet. The Technocracy movement (TTM), the Venus project (TVP) and the Zeitgeist movement (TZM) use this alternative definition of RBE to mean a moneyless, classless and stateless global system in which wage labor (or any other system of servitude), private property and the profit motive would serve no purpose and all human needs such as food, housing, goods, services, etc. would be available to everyone and everything is supplied. In an RBE, resources would be managed as efficiently and carefully as possible through focusing on the technological potential of sustainable development. The premise upon which RBE is based is the belief of TTM, TVP and TZM that the intelligent application of highly advanced science and technology can enable an Earth that is abundant with plentiful resources, enabling a high standard of living for all of the Earth's inhabitants.

Proposal no. 4: A resource-based economy (RBE) can also mean a holistic global system in which all resources become the common heritage of all the inhabitants of the planet. The Technocracy movement (TTM), the Venus project (TVP) and the Zeitgeist movement (TZM) use this alternative definition of RBE to mean a moneyless, classless and stateless global system in which wage labor (or any other system of servitude), private property and the profit motive would serve no purpose and all human needs such as food, housing, goods, services, etc. would be available to everyone. In an RBE, resources would be managed as efficiently and carefully as possible through focusing on the technological potential of sustainable development.

This looks like a WP:COATRACK to me. The idea that there are economies that are largely based upon extraction of natural resources and others that are resource-poor is bog-standard economics theory. Linking a bunch of different political and economic theories to it with "A resource-based economy (RBE) can also mean" is classic coatracking that can just as easily be done with other basic economic concepts like labor, debt, investment, etc. The fact that the particular coats chosen are somewhat fringe (why not list what RBE "can also mean" to Republicans or Marxists?) makes it even worse. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:06, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

There's only one that needs to be mentioned, because only one can be shown to have notability, and that's the meaning that TVP/TZM uses. Having it be larger than the main section is indeed, IMO coat-racking. I think we all agree that it should be mentioned, just not how much and what it would say. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:49, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Guy, if Republicans or Marxists, or any other group, also had their own definition of RBE, and the mainstream media covered these definitions in several verifiable, reliable sources (print and broadcast), would it not be reasonable to, say, create something like a disambiguation page on WP, with links to each of the definitions?

I propose to fully, completely, un-ambiguously separate the TTM/TVP/TZM definition of RBE from that of mainstream economics. T/T/T have very low opinion of mainstream economics; in fact they believe it is a complete fraud. In numerous video lectures and other presentations, T/T/T have voiced severe criticism of mainstream economics. The T/T/T definition of RBE has absolutely nothing to do with mainstream economics. The two concepts of RBE are divorced from each other and alienated from each other because of their irreconcilable differences, and they must be un-ambiguously separated. Any attempt to place the two fundamentally estranged, incompatible definitions on the same page is bound to failure. Even if somehow we succeed in placing these two different definitions on the same page in the short term, the effort is highly likely to fail overall in the longer term, necessitating additional DRN's (like this one) and likely going all the way to binding arbitration. I propose we solve this problem once and for all.

I propose creating a disambiguation page that looks perhaps something like this:

Resource-based economy may refer to:

* Resource-based economy, the economy of a country whose GDP to a large extent comes from natural resources

* Resource-based economy, a global system proposed by several alternative-views movements

If a reader selects the second link, they'll be taken to a page containing something like, say, one of the proposals above (no. 1, 2, 3 or 4) for the alternative definition of RBE.

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 22:01, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is not enough things to say about the TVP meaning of RBE to warrant it's own article, and I don't really see how it solves anything. It definitely doesn't solve this dispute. --OpenFuture (talk) 03:07, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

To my opinion, the second sentence should read: * Resource-based economy, a proposed global system proposed by several fringe movements Night of the Big Wind _talk 14:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

That's acceptable to me. --OpenFuture (talk) 16:49, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

The TTM article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics and WikiProject Energy. TVP is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative Views. TZM is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative Views and WikiProject Rational Skepticism. That's why I propose alternative views (or rational skepticism). IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 20:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

You lost me. I don't follow what you are talking about here. --OpenFuture (talk) 20:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I was responding to your and Night's comments regarding the second line of the proposed disambiguation page. I'm proposing the second line of the proposed disambiguation page read something like this:

* Resource-based economy, a global system proposed by several alternative-views movements

Or this:

* Resource-based economy, a global system proposed by several rational-skepticism movements

Or this:

* Resource-based economy, a global system proposed by several non-mainstream movements

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 21:05, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Calling it "rational-skepticism" is directly delusional. "Non-mainstream" could work, possibly. --OpenFuture (talk) 03:10, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Good. If you are OK with "non-mainstream", I'm OK with it too. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 19:32, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

In fact, I just see one editor passionately wanting his version into the article and several other who like to see the article neutral. This start to look like POV-pushing. Night of the Big Wind _talk 14:06, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

IjonTichyIjonTichy has no sources that support his changes. He adds a massive amount of sources, none which define Resource-based economy as he defines it. At best it is therefore WP:Synthesis. I think it is massive p.o.v. pushing also. That section, the best last version was fine and got the job done. Having that section with 10 citations to one sentence that do not really explain anything but give more revolving information is pointless and seems advertising. Accusing the other editor of spamming a talk page is down right wrong and seems way over the top uncivil and now used for garnering sympathy here. Forget the idea of saying several of these fringe groups want world wide R.B.E. - The Technocracy groups doesn't. None of these groups are connected to each other. Venus Project does not like Zeitgeist and vice versa. Lumping them together as the same thing is not proper. IjonTichyIjonTichy seems to be trying to wear everyone down. The spare last best version leads to all the groups mentioned. Right now that can stay. Some work went into making it pretty good. Earl King Jr. (talk) 14:27, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The current skeletal, substance-free, un-encyclopedic version of the alternative-definition section in the article still defines TTM's, TVP's and TZM's definition of RBE as "an economic theory in which things such as goods, services and information are free." Which, as I explained earlier (on the article's talk page) in several comments that were ignored (please see the diffs above), is a meaningless, empty statement that could also describe a prison camp, a jail, a gulag, concentration camps, and other places of detention or confinement. Or military service. Or an orphanage.

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:08, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

This shows the problem with allowing a WP:COATRACK. It appears that the other editors have tried to accommodate the POV pushing by allowing a small coatrack with a vest or two hanging on it. The results is a complaint about not allowing the full coatrack and the entire collection of coats. I say get rid of the coatrack altogether. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:21, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

No. None of the things you listed above are economic theories. The claim that a gulag is "an economic theory in which things such as goods, services and information are free" is beyond absurd. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:30, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone considered a hatnote like "For the moneyless economy advocated by , see that group's article"? —Tamfang (talk) 19:31, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm OK with this proposal. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 19:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a good solution. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:43, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The main problem with that is that The Venus Project contains zero information on the topic. Trying to improve that article proved fruitless before, maybe it could work now. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:30, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

What about the two other utopian articles that begin with "The"? —Tamfang (talk) 22:19, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone considered a hatnote like "For the moneyless economy advocated by , see that group's article"? That is treating people like children that need to be led along. Bad idea. Right now the article is fairly good. All the groups mentioned in that section have links that go to their own articles if people click them. Its overkill to help people or lead people that way. A Prison camp, a jail, a gulag, concentration camps, and other places of detention or confinement military service, orphanage??, being a logical part of the discussion??, comparing that to what we are talking about? No. IjonTichyIjonTichy is not making constructive argguments, has no support for his or hers changes on the article, is bashing fellow editors about spam and vandalizing. Best course is to give a time out to IjonTichyIjonTichy|IjonTichyIjonTichy, maybe ask him not to edit the article for a while since zero people support what he is doing and he is not listening to feedback on his edits, just doing the same types of over kill information things based on o.r. p.o.v. syn. Earl King Jr. (talk) 02:03, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Let me take each of your arguments in order.

First, hatnotes are not "treating people like children." They are a legitimate part of Misplaced Pages's disambiguation system. You can dispute whether a hatnote is needed in this particular case, but questioning the basic concept of hatnotes will not get you far.

Second, whether the current article is fairly good is a matter of opinion. In my opinion it is not. It gives too much WP:WEIGHT to the fringe theories. I think a hatnote is a better choice.

Third, the prison/jail/gulag argument was a legitimate argument. It wasn't a convincing argument, but it makes a fair point -- that the fringe theories that IjonTichyIjonTichy wants to coatrack are not well described by just saying things are free. Some things (food, shelter) are free in a prison, but hat's not what the fringe theories are talking about. That is why the hatnote is a good idea; it leads the interested reader to the actual articles on those fring theories where they can be properly described.

Fourth, "has no support for his or hers changes" is exactly correct. IjonTichyIjonTichy has to deal with the fact that the consensus is against him. That being said, he is doing the right thing here; proposing alternatives and trying to gather support for them. It would be wrong to not examine and fairly evaluate the alternatives he suggests.

Lastly, as for telling IjonTichyIjonTichy to stop editing the article, that's not going to happen. He has just as much right to edit as you or I do. Of course we all have to follow such key policies as WP:CONSENSUS, but we do not gang up and exclude someone just because they have a minority opinion. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:12, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah o.k. points taken, but, the guy IjonTichyIjonTichy is edit warring and accusing others of vandalizing, censoring and spamming. That is why the hatnote is a good idea; it leads the interested reader to the actual articles on those fring theories where they can be properly described. I don't think its a good idea because if people have any interest they can click on the main three articles in Resource-based economics, all of which explain things in detail about the three subjects. I am also just trying to help IjonTichyIjonTichy here because I am afraid he is going to be blocked or prohibited from editing this article in question at some point. That is the only reason I only suggested he take a break since his editing tactics have been rejected on the talk page of the article. So please mister User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon lay off. I did not come here to gang up on anyone. Also it is a well known fact that Misplaced Pages does gang up on people and that editing teams control many articles. I do not think that is the case on this article in question. Assume good faith here Mr. Guy Macon as I do not like this interaction accusation style. Earl King Jr. (talk) 10:46, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Guy Macon is making valid arguments and he is right. And I apologize for accusing OpenFuture of vandalizing, censoring and spamming. I can see now that these accusations were baseless and unwarranted, and OpenFuture has every right to be upset and angry at me. I was a less experienced editor at the time that I made the accusations. (I am a little bit more experienced now after collaborating with so many great editors over the last 7 days in improving The Zeitgeist Movement, but I am still not anywhere as experienced as any of the editors involved in this DRN).

I have not edited the article since it was unlocked, and I have no intention of doing so without following key policies such as WP:CONSENSUS, because I have full confidence that Guy Macon, OpenFuture, Tamfang, Arthurfragoso and other interested editors would continue to do a good job in improving the article (of course, if the consensus is that an improvement is needed). Regards and best wishes, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:39, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Oy, everybody cool down! Nobody is ganging up on anyone, and nobody is telling people to stop editing, and nobody needs to lay off anything!

We're just saying that it would be good if IjonTichyIjonTichy discussed his controversial changes first.

For the hatnote, it has to go to The Venus Project is implemented, and that means that article has to be improved first. We can maybe "Gang up" on the article? --OpenFuture (talk) 11:20, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree fully. This is a good idea/ action-plan. 12:52, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion: remove all mention of the alternative use of the term. There is really no good reason to have an 'alternative use' section. For example, an increasing number of Zeitgeist movement members are moving away from using the term RBE, including some of the main spokespersons for the movement. In several recent lectures, presentations or conversations over the last few months, Peter Joseph stated he is moving away from the term 'resource based economy' and instead using terms such as 'a new global system' etc. Please see my most recent edit of The Zeitgeist Movement. You'll notice that my edit does not mention the term 'resource-based economy', nor its abbreviation, RBE. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 20:06, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

The reason TZM is moving away from it is because they have split with The Venus Project and want to distance themselves form their terminology. It's all very childish. TVP still uses the term, unfortunately. But it does make the case for a hatnote solution stronger. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:03, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

As a unabashed pro Zeitgeist editor IjonTichyIjonTichy that just reverted The Zeitgeist Movement article against all consensus and I do mean all consensus, I think you are not improving the article and some intervention about your editing the article should be made since as a type of spokes person for the so called movement you are only interested in special interest group edits and have ruined the objectivity and neutrality of the article over and over by returning information that is against consensus. Sorry but that is the pattern which is holding holding and holding and no amount of reasoned consensus on the talk page seems to dissuade you from edit warring your own Zeitgeist party line view of things. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:31, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Gentlemen, I do not believe that WP:DRN can help you with this issue. It appears to be a WP:RFCU WP:RFC/U issue. Unless someone can give me a reason to believe that keeping this open longer will help, I am going to mark it unresolved and close it. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:17, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Did you mean WP:RFC/U? —Tamfang (talk) 18:23, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Thanks for catching that. (Note to self: next time, smoke crack after editing Misplaced Pages.) --Guy Macon (talk) 17:24, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Either completely remove all mention of the alternative use of the term RBE (because an increasing number of Zeitgeist movement members are moving away from using the term RBE, as discussed above), or significantly expand the alternative use to correctly describe TTM's, TVP's or TZM's usage of the term. The current description is incorrect. The most important aspect of TTM, TVP and TZM is this: "A holistic global system in which all resources become the common heritage of all the inhabitants of the planet.". This phrase must be included, because this is the most important core idea, the most important fundamental principle of TTM, TVP and TZM. This core idea implies that, for example, Tom Harrison "owns" all the resources on the planet, making him an enormously wealthy person. The only condition is that he share this wealth equitably with everyone else on the planet, making everybody else on the planet also wealthy. Any WP editor may choose to laugh at this idea, to ridicule it, to think it is delusional nonsense, to think it is promotional, or to think it is empty rhetoric, utopianism, communism or socialism. Editors' thoughts, feelings, POV and opinions are valid and important. I respect, recognize and acknowledge editors' thoughts, feelings, POV and opinions. But this is the most important aspect of TTM, TZM and TVP, and it must be included, or the 'alternative use' section must be removed completely. This aspect of the 3 organizations is the basis of everything TTM, TVP and TZM stand upon. Everything else about TTM, TVP and TZM follows from this idea, is based upon this idea and builds upon this idea.

From The Huffington Post: "... the world's resources would be considered as the equal inheritance of all the world's peoples ..."

From The Venus Project: "... a holistic socio-economic system in which ... all resources become the common heritage of all of the inhabitants, not just a select few ..."

From the Palm Beach Post: "... In this world, we all are equal because the planet's resources belong to everyone, not a select few ..."

This is the most important aspect of TTM, TVP and TZM because, in their view, once everyone on the planet "owns" everything on the planet equitably, there would be no need for money, class, or different countries/ states. That's why in my suggested edits (Proposals no. 1--4 above), I first provide the most important aspect of TTM, TVP and TZM, followed by the following, based on verifiable citations from our set of reliable sources: "This system would be a moneyless, classless, and stateless global system in which money, debt, credit, exchange, barter, wage labor, private property and the profit motive would be eliminated. Human needs would be supplied for everyone. Resources would be managed as efficiently and carefully as possible through the technological potential of sustainable development." .

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, let's do a quick poll. Place your name without comment under one of the following, and optionally, add a brief comment explaining your vote in the comment section. -Guy Macon (talk) 17:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

How should the alternative meanings be mentioned?

HAT NOTE

• Tamfang (talk) 14:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
• IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

NO MENTION AT ALL

• Tamfang (talk) 14:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
• IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

IN THE TEXT, LINK ONLY

IN THE TEXT, EXPANDED

OTHER (SEE COMMENT)

COMMENTS

Comparison of rugby league and rugby union

• Comparison of rugby league and rugby union (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

I (Aircorn) first came upon the general topic of the dispute after Gnevin posted at the Rugby union Wikiproject looking for help in dealing with a quote being in the lead. He also posted the same notification at the Rugby league Wikiproject. After some discussion the quote was moved out of the lead. There was still some disagreement about how the quote should be used or if it even belongs in the article. After both myself and Gnevin were unsuccessfully in trying to remove it, Gnevin found a similar quote and added it next to the original one. Gibson Flying V removed this quote and that has lead to a protracted discussion as to why one quote is valid but the other not. The original quote is pro-league, while the second one was pro-union. The diffs presented here are just a fraction of the reverting that has occurred over this issue. These two recent reverts (on slightly different issues) have convinced me to look for outside help.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Aircorn (talk · contribs)
• Gibson Flying V (talk · contribs)
• Gnevin (talk · contribs)

Mattlore (talk · contribs) commented initially, but has not made any further comments. Two users also responded at the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Comparison of rugby league and rugby union over a related issue. That concern was the quote being in the lead, which appears to have been resolved now. I will notify Mattlore, but at this stage I have not notified the two users from the NPOV noticeboard. Let me know if that should be done.

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Comparison of rugby league and rugby union}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Talk:Comparison of rugby league and rugby union#Moving on and User talk:Gibson Flying V#Comparison of rugby league and rugby union are where the bulk of the discussion has occurred, but you might also like to read Talk:Comparison of rugby league and rugby union#Quote in the intro for a bit more background.

• How do you think we can help?

We need more people with a neutral perspective (i.e. not in favour of one sport over another) to look over the dispute concerning the quotes and help us decide what the most nuetral way to present them is. The options are no quotes, both quotes or to just have one of the quotes. They could also be incorporated into the text of the article. The talk page discussions detail our particular preferences. Advice on any other issues would be a bonus and if possible it would be good to provide a way forward if other similar issues arise. Thank you to anyone who is willing to look into this.

AIRcorn (talk) 06:40, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Comparison of rugby league and rugby union discussion

Hello everyone, and thanks for bringing this dispute here. I'm a semi-regular mediator/clerk here at DRN, and I thought I'd try and lend a helping hand with this problem. This is quite an interesting dispute as the three editors involved are all regulars at Misplaced Pages, so we are all familiar with the policies and guidelines, and we have all probably been in a dispute or two before. An upshot of our collective experience is that naturally we all know the neutral point of view policy and have had the opportunity to put it into practice many times. Something seems to be going wrong somewhere in this article, however, as we are all claiming that our edits are neutral, but we are disagreeing about each other's interpretations of what being neutral actually means. So, before we look at any specific content issues, I would just like to throw out a suggestion for a guiding principle of neutrality as it applies to this article. Now, this is only a suggestion, and you are all free to disagree with it - that is absolutely fine. I would like us to discuss it first, though, as I think that once we have agreed about this general idea it will be a lot easier to find a resolution for the specific content issues that we have been having problems with.

My suggestion is simple: I think that, in this article, we should treat rugby league and rugby union as having equal worth. That is to say, we shouldn't imply in any way that one of them is better than the other. Now, one sport may be faster than the other, and one may be more tactical, and mentioning that is no problem, as long as we can back it up with facts and statistics rather than leave it as assertion and opinion. The problems arise when we start to use these differences in the character of each sport to imply a subjective judgement of good or bad about either of them. Now, as far as I know (which is admittedly not very far), there is no way of objectively judging which sport is "better" than the other, and I make this suggestion because I think it would be best not to try. However, I would be interested to hear what you all think of this. If you think I have tripped up in my reasoning somewhere, then please let me know - that would be a great way to kick-start the debate. (Of course, it's ok to agree with me as well. ;) I'll be looking forward to hearing your opinions. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius 13:54, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

To be honest I'm not sure I agree with your reading of the situation. While I'm not a RL man myself I don't consider it to be of less worth than union. Also while I personally feel union is more enjoyable to watch than league I know that that is my opinion, just as I know that it's my opinion that blue is the best colour or it's better to be warm than cold. I am aware of my baggage and I try not let it effect my editing of RL ,colours or what ever else. I've only attempted to tidy this article and remove some pieces of the blatant NPOV.

My reading of the situation is we have 1 user to is blatantly pushing the POV that RL is a superior game and using what ever they can find on the internet as stick to beat union.

I think what we need is an agreement that sources outside of wiki can be biased too and that just because it's printed in a newspaper or the internet doesn't mean we should use it a reference Gnevin (talk) 17:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

To be fair I think you both are agreeing really. Treating league and union as equal is the reasonable approach, any other way would be a POV. Even comments around which is faster and which is more tactical is debatable, both can be played at different speeds and both require tactics. If this approach, as suggested by Mr. Stradivarius, is used then I think you end up with the result advocated for by Gnevin; the quote doesn't have a place, and certaintly not in the intro. I don't think you need an overarching "determination" on the validility of sources or anything along those lines to reach this point.

For the record, I am part of the rugby league wikiproject and prefer that sport over the other.

Also, just to make it black and white (because it had me very confused for a while) User Gibson Flying V was known as User Jeff79 at the start of this dispute. Mattlore (talk) 22:10, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I should have mentioned the Jeff79 = Gibson Flying V fact earlier. As far as I know this board does not necessarily deal with user conduct, but this may be a path we have to go down. I thought this might be a less drama filled alternative and after consensus was agreed (admittedly grudgingly) at the NPOV noticeboard, I hoped it might prove successful here too. As far as the article goes I echo Mattlore in saying that Gnevin and Mr. Stradivarius are on the same page, one that I agree with too. If we can keep opinions out of the article altogether it would make it much easier to manage. AIRcorn (talk) 00:30, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Misread Mr. Stradivarius' comments looks like we are all on the same page Gnevin (talk) 08:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Naturally I too agree with you, Mr Strativarius. While for most experienced editors it goes without saying, I think it's good for Gnevin and Aircorn to read what you said about avoiding subjective judgement of good or bad. Perhaps you said it because you noticed their use of colourful language such as "pro/anti-league/union"; "which is the better game"; "favour one code over the other"; "say a lot harsher things"; "show RL in a good light"; "horrible quotes"; "a pissing contest"; etc. It's also clear they're having trouble assuming good faith and have become a bit emotional about me personally, attempting to paint me as the villain with dramatic stuff like "fighting tooth and nail against consensus"; "your other slanted edits"; "Your adopting an entirely hypocritical approach"; "The charges you level"; "blatantly pushing the POV that RL is a superior game"; etc. One thing I'm particularly curious about is what Aircorn is suggesting above when he said regarding my user name: "As far as I know this board does not necessarily deal with user conduct, but this may be a path we have to go down." As (apparently) one of the "400 most active Wikipedians" I'll typically be undertaking more than one little project at a time. That I changed my user name during discussions about this article is purely coincidental. I don't think anyone would begrudge a user the right to change a 5-year-old ID that was comprised of their real name and year of birth, would they? Anyway, I'm pleased that Aircorn has brought more people into this, although I think it will bear as little fruit for him as his last attempt. I'm afraid we do need to get specific though, because the crux of it is this: Gnevin and Aircorn are on a mission to have the dreaded New York Times quote (and possibly other well-sourced content) not merely shifted, but removed from the article altogether. To help them achieve this, they've created some nice big chunks of text between the pair of them on various talk pages to make it appear as though there's a real debate going on (a tactic I'm sure you've seen before). I've done my best to refuse joining the party as most of this "debate" has centred around their intriguing view that a quote from a player who was at the time recently paid to leave rugby league and play rugby union is just as valuable and deserves equal prominence as a quote from a New York Times journalist (who I will go out on a limb and say is completely neutral and disinterested). They appear to be hoping that when the player's quote is rightly removed the baby will get thrown out with the bathwater. The article was an unreferenced perma-stub made up of various anonymous IPs' POVs until I came along and started adding referenced content. When I was choosing sources, I set an especially high standard and used, amongst others, a sports science textbook and a reputable American newspaper. I decided that British/Australian/New Zealand newspapers would be unsuitable as even they are too close to the subject. Recently, I attempted to add the use of an article (about rugby union) from a Canadian newspaper, which I thought was another shining example neutrality, but was knee-jerk reverted without discussion. By comparison, when I removed the quote box containing the player's words, I then said on the talk page that it would be fine to use if properly contextualised. An option so far not taken up, apparently in favour of simply expelling all independent sources. Personally, I'd prefer to represent fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:13, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

• Great, it looks like we are all agreeing about the basic need for neutrality in the article. Now, I notice that there have been a fair few personal remarks made about editors in the discussions so far. There has been nothing terribly bad, and I have definitely seen much worse in my experiences mediating. However, it is vital to remember that any remark which focuses on the contributor and not on the content runs the risk of escalating this dispute, and to resolve this to everyone's satisfaction we all need to stop making these kind of remarks, right now. I suggest that for the duration of this dispute, you all make a conscious effort to avoid mentioning the other editors in your posts at all. In the vast majority of situations it is possible to rephrase comments that mention editors into comments that only talk about content. To take an entirely hypothetical example, it is ok to say that a certain passage in the article makes one sport seem "better" than the other; it is not ok to say, or even merely to imply, that the editor who wrote this passage is biased.

  So, on to the content at hand. I think for now, we had better check that we all agree about the basic properties of the New York Times quote. This should be a simple process of observation, but I've learned that you can never be too careful with these things, so I want to make sure that we all agree about this before we move on to more delicate matters. I would summarize the quote as follows:

1. The source it appears in, the New York Times, is top-quality.
2. Ian Thomsen is a respected sports journalist, and this was also true in 1995 when he wrote the article.
3. Thomsen does not have any conflict of interest regarding rugby league or rugby union.
4. The quote is Thomsen's own subjective opinion.
5. The quote portrays rugby league as a better sport than rugby union.

Would you all say that this is a fair characterization? If you have any objections, or any other points you think I have missed, feel free to outline them below. Best — Mr. Stradivarius 14:04, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I changed your list to a numbered list , hope you don't mind Gnevin (talk) 14:48, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

1. Would agree with all of the above . I think the key point is 4 it's an opinion
2. I also think it's worth noting that the source is hopelessly outdated . RU has changed in so many ways since that quote was wrote including many affects of becoming professional Gnevin (talk) 14:48, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Full quote from the source is Thirteen-man rugby league has shown itself to be a faster, more open game of better athletes than the other code. Rugby union is trying to negotiate its own escape from amateurism, with some officials admitting that the game is too slow, the laws too convoluted to attract a larger TV following; nonetheless, compared to the popularity of rugby union's World Cup in South Africa last June, the rival version this month has disappointed. From a historical perspective 1995 was the year rugby became professional. Thomsen is basically comparing a professional sport to a sport still mostly made up of amateurs (or players that have only just turned professional). Seventeen years is a long time in sport after such a major change. Among other things the laws, which have been mentioned in the quote, have undergone changes since then. Comparing the Ashton quote using the same criteria you get:

1. The source it appears in, the The Independant, is top-quality.
2. Ashton is a respected sportsman, and this was still true in 2011 when he was quoted in the article.
3. Ashton has a conflict of interest regarding rugby league and rugby union, having played both.
4. The quote is Ashton's own subjective opinion.
5. The quote portrays rugby union as a better sport than rugby league.

If the only concern is the conflict of interest then there are other sports journalists out there that could be used. In the end there are strong opinions both ways when it comes to these sports and the only neutral way is to present both or neither. AIRcorn (talk) 22:41, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree 100% with Mr Stativaruis' analysis. I apologise in advance if I'm jumping ahead here, but I would add regarding point 4 that while it is Thomsen's subjective opinion, it is not a subjective opinion in the same sense as artistic preference or favouring winter over summer. He is commenting on observable, measurable phenomena, and while he has not quantified these, others have. Sources in the article (plus the National Post one inexplicably removed) confirm his observation that rugby league is the faster of the two, making it closer to a fact than an opinion (I would also like to mention that faster does not necessarily equate to better, and it would be a subjective opinion in itself to assume that it does). That rugby league is "more open" can be attributed to the undisputed fact that it has 26 men on the field as opposed to rugby union's 30. In addition to what Aircorn says above about union's amateurism at the time, in the 'Gameplay' section of the article it is confirmed that rugby league is more physically demanding, lending support to the "better athletes" comment. Regarding rugby union being "too slow, the laws too convoluted to attract a larger TV following" you'll all have noticed that he actually assigns this view to "some (rugby union) officials". I've not found other sources for this, but I'm willing to trust in Thomsen's journalistic integrity and assume that this is something he did actually observe. Lending support to the television viewing figures aspect is the fact that Australia's late-night viewing record set by the 1991 rugby union world cup final was subsequently broken by the 1992 rugby league world cup final. I would also add a 6th point or an addendum to the 5th: It portrays rugby league in 1995 in a better light than rugby union in 1995. The good thing about using the quote box as it appears now alongside the part of the 'History' section that deals with the 1990s is that it is "frozen in time" if you like. I don't think the Thomsen quote would be, or is intended to be, taken as contemporary or timeless.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 21:15, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

The reference from the National Post mentioned in Gibsons Flying V's last two posts that was removed by myself and Gnevin is not inexplicable, an explanation is provided on the talk page. We have both also invited him to discuss it there. Anyway two, three or more people having the same opinion does not make something a fact. No matter what way it is spun it is someones opinion on how the game was in 1995. I think it could possibly be worked into the text next to where it talks about the switch to professionalism, something like this. It is better editing style in any case. AIRcorn (talk) 23:59, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment - The lead of the article should not include any quotes, nor should it contain any judgmental material. The reason is that there is not enough room in the lead to give the appropriate context which is needed to help the reader interpret the judgements. On the other hand, the body of the article can and should contain judgements and opinions of important commentators on rugby. The WP:NPOV policy requires that all viewpoints be represented fairly in the article. Generally speaking, editors should put aside their own prejudices and try to make the article as unbiased and objective as possible. Quotes from notable commentators are appropriate for inclusion, however, the quotes should not be hand-selected by editors; instead, any quotes used should be quotes that were selected by secondary sources. In other words, a quote should be included only if a secondary source writing about rugby mentions the quote. --Noleander (talk) 06:53, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, what Noleander said. :) As far as I am aware there is no requirement to stick to quotes that have been selected by secondary sources, but in cases like this where quotes are controversial I think this would be a very good way of keeping all the involved parties honest about what they include. There are a number of points in WP:QUOTE that I was going to bring up as well, but if we can agree to this then it probably won't be necessary to go through all of them. So, would you all be willing to give this principle a try? I'm not sure there are any secondary sources that quote either Ashton or Thomsen, but I bet that there are plenty of other juicy quotes listed in the secondary sources. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 06:55, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you have any suggestions about how to present these, or similar, quotes (box or intext). Personally if we are going with quotes I would like to keep them short According to such and such union is "much slower than league", while Chris Ashton says union has "much more of a tactical side". Also when you say selected by secondary sources do you mean a newspaper quoting someone as opposed to us quoting a newspaper? I ask because if that is the case then the Ashton one could pass as it is sourced by Hugh Godwin. AIRcorn (talk) 08:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

If the fate of the New York Times quote is to hinge on how controversial it is, I would ask that this question be looked at thoroughly. For reasons I've outlined above I remain to be convinced that the quote is (outside the talk pages of Misplaced Pages) controversial at all.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 08:19, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, when I said "controversial" I was specifically talking about that the fact that the quote has been disputed on the talk pages of Misplaced Pages. So it looks like your answer to my question above is a "no", then. :) For now, let's just bear that solution in mind should we get stuck later on, and move on to the next step. Now, we've agreed that we shouldn't treat rugby league or rugby union as subjectively better or worse than each other, and we have also agreed that the New York Times quote portrays rugby union rugby league as a better sport than rugby league rugby union. So the question now would seem to be how we reconcile these two facts. Here's what WP:QUOTE has to say about it:

1. "Where a quotation presents rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias, it can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject into Misplaced Pages's narrative on the subject, and should be avoided."
2. "As a matter of style, quoteboxes should generally be avoided as they draw special attention to the opinion of one source, and present that opinion as though Misplaced Pages endorses it. Instead of using quoteboxes to highlight its notability, explain its importance before introducing the quote or in an introduction to the quote."
3. "Intersperse quotations with original prose that comments on those quotations instead of constructing articles out of quotations with little or no original prose."

And here's how I see the quote faring in relation to these three points:

1. We definitely have to be careful here. We have agreed that the quote itself is not neutral (i.e. it favours rugby union), so if we do include it we need to make sure that we present it in a way that preserves the overall neutrality of the article.
2. As it is, the quote stands out prominently, and readers' eyes are drawn towards it. Because of this, WP:QUOTE implies that the prominence of the quote makes it seem as though Misplaced Pages endorses Thomsen's opinion. With nothing to counteract that prominence, this would indeed seem to create a neutrality problem. Also, the importance of the quote is not explained.
3. Though the quote is indirectly related to the text around it by being made in the historical context of the move to professionalism in 1995, this may not be immediately clear to readers unfamiliar with the subject. For instance, Thomsen is not mentioned in the text, and neither is the speed of the game or the quality of the athletes, both integral parts of the quote.

From this analysis, there do appear to be problems with the way the quote is used in the article, and it seems that something needs to be done to reduce the emphasis on the quote, whether that is by better putting it in context, or by introducing contrasting viewpoints. Gibson Flying V, would you agree with this analysis, and if not do you have any suggestions on how it can be improved? Best — Mr. Stradivarius 11:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

portrays rugby union as a better sport than rugby league have you mixed up your codes? Gnevin (talk) 11:35, 5 June 2012 (UTC)?

Whoops, yes, I have, d'oh... fixed it now. — Mr. Stradivarius 12:08, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

99.8% Agree :) While it's true we have agreed that the quote portrays mid-90s league in a better light than mid-90s union, we also agreed that the source of the quote is of exceptional neutrality and quality. This inherent neutrality (plus the fact that it is in no way contradicted by any other reliable source) is what makes it deserving of a quote box's prominence. I'd be very surprised if a reader would not want to see what a disinterested observer has to say on the matter (especially if it's a senior Sports Illustrated and New York Times sportswriter). I also don't beleive a quote's use has a neutrality problem if it's simply confirming what all significant views that have been published by reliable sources are about a topic. So, as for what to do to reduce the emphasis on the quote:

a) better putting it in context

Nothing is gained by incorporating the quote into the body text along the lines of "In 1995 Ian Thomsen, sportswriter of the New York Times wrote..." as this is what the quote box already communicates. It would certainly reduce its prominence, but for reasons I've already mentioned, I believe this also reduces the article's informativeness. I'd also like to remind everyone that consensus was already established for the quote appearing in a section lower down in the article. After I moved it to the 'History' section, the issue would have been dead and buried. However the quote was then moved to the 'Gameplay' section alongside a union-contracted player's quote, resulting in the 'controversy' we now have here.

b) introducing contrasting viewpoints

Naturally, I've got no problems with this. Can we all agree that these additional viewpoints' sources be held to a similar standard of neutrality and quality?--Gibson Flying V (talk) 11:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

When a quote is in a box, people will not necessarily read the quote along with the rest of the article. What is gained by incorporating it into the text is that the reader has to read it in context. We don't even need to quote it, it could just be paraphrased (which fits in with the general consensus here to use quotes quoted from secondary sources). The only reason to keep it in a quote box is to draw readers attention to it and there needs to be a good reason to do so. This is especially true in an article like this, where that quote could easily be interpretated as promoting one sport over another. I also think it is a stretch to suggest that the previous noticeboard established consensus for the quote to be used, but in any case the one person who said it should be used in a paragraph further down clarified that It should be introduced with something like "in the 1990s one commentator said...", which is not putting it into a quote box. AIRcorn (talk) 12:35, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Boxes or not? In this situation (I presume) there will be several quotes, say four: two from each "side". The MOS indicates that quote boxes should generally be avoided except for lengthy quotes. A quote box draws the readers' attention to the quote and gives it special prominence, which could be perceived as a way to favor one "side" over the other. A safe approach would be to keep all quotes short-ish and inline. If there is a quote that is long, and therefore must be in a box, parity requires that the other "side" also have a quote that is long-ish and in a box. That tit-for-tat formatting seems childish, I know, but it is a good compromise. Best would be to keep all quotes short and inline to avoid the box-counting. --Noleander (talk) 14:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I added a second quote from a Current Union player who has switched from League but Gibson Flying V kept removing it Gnevin (talk) 08:57, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I am neutral on this topic. I'm not a fan and know little about the sport. Having read the discussion above, and considering the original request for help (options are no quotes, both quotes or to just have one of the quotes), I would suggest having no quotes. For me, much of this discussion has been on how to present these quotes, rather than on whether to include them in the first place. The struggle with how to handle them stems primarily from the fact that they are non-neutral, rhetorical commentary, i.e., "just one man's opinion". Keep them out of the article altogether. Coastside (talk) 21:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

If the quotes were from random persons on the street, then of course they are not important enough for the article. But if there is a major public controversy, and if the quotes are from notable analysts, journalists, athletes, or coaches, then the encylopedia is obligated to provide that information to readers. Without the quotes, the article is not providing a full picture. I agree that quotes should probably be omitted from the lead where they would generate more heat than light; but in the article body they can and should be presented in a neutral fashion. --Noleander (talk) 21:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I have a new suggestion on how we might compromise on this. How about including a new section on attitudes towards rugby union and rugby league? I think a survey of attitudes towards the two codes amongst fans, athletes, and sports writers would be very useful for a good understanding of the subject, and that it would also be a perfect place to put subjective opinions like Thomsen's. Think of it as a section to document the various stereotypes that have arisen around both of the sports. I note that a similar suggestion was made on the talk page, but that it wasn't pursued very far. I think this would be worth considering seriously, though, as it has the potential to resolve the deadlock here. On the talk page there was a concern that a good section title might be hard to find, and I admit that we may have to choose a fairly long title - perhaps something like "Attitudes toward the two codes". Still, even if we have to go with a long section title, I think it would be worth discussing. Do people think this would be a good idea? — Mr. Stradivarius 12:36, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I did float this, but looking back I don't think this is the best idea. It would be a POV nightmare, much like the "controversy" section or "pro and con list" can be in other articles. Also, most if not all, opinions on the two games can be slotted into appropriate sections, and this is generally a better way to structure articles. We could have Thomsen under history, maybe balanced by a mention of the global status of each game, and the Ashton quote under gameplay balanced with a quote from a league player who converted to union and then back again (Sailor springs to mind and I think Rogers said a few things after his switch back). Just take the parts where they say the differences and leave the "rugby league/union is much better" parts out. Ashton talks about the difference in tactics, while Rogers mentioned that he found union more complicated. AIRcorn (talk) 02:45, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting. So no one's willing to answer my question above then?--Gibson Flying V (talk) 16:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean can we all agree that these additional viewpoints' sources be held to a similar standard of neutrality and quality? The thing is that the impartiality and reliability of a source is not the only thing that determines neutrality. It is how that source is presented in the article. There is a general agreement here that in its current form the New York Times quote is not presented in a neutral way. AIRcorn (talk) 02:45, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Vassula Ryden

Cannot be resolved here. Suggest RfC as next step Guy Macon (talk) 01:21, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Marshall Strabala

No discussion for three days, advice from Noleander will, if followed, settle the dispute. Guy Macon (talk) 13:55, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Thor (film)

No discussion for three days. Guy Macon (talk) 13:57, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Good Olfactory, User:Alan Liefting

User Conduct Dispute, not Article Content Dispute. Suggest that the discussion be moved to WP:WQA, and if that does not resolve the problem, to WP:RFCU. Guy Macon (talk) 01:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

List of tallest buildings in Australia

Resolved Guy Macon (talk) 05:48, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Granai airstrike

• Granai airstrike (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

Two editors disagree about whether the article should be placed in the category "massacres in Afghanistan." Others have been involved in this dispute previously.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Darouet (talk · contribs)
• Randy2063 (talk · contribs)
• Gregcaletta (talk · contribs)
• Iqinn (talk · contribs)
• Dlabtot (talk · contribs)

Only Randy2063 and I are currently discussing this; others have in the past.

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes (except Iqinn, who was apparently banned).

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Granai airstrike}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

We have tried to discuss why we believe this event was or was not a massacre. Randy2063 has stated the event was not a massacre because it was an accident (intent is required). I have not commented on the intent of the military forces, but have stated that some Asian news sources have described it as a massacre. We have tried to discuss the definition of "massacre" and have reached an impasse.

• How do you think we can help?

Perhaps you could help us develop clear criteria for accepting a definition of the word massacre. A mediator would also be helpful to keep the discussion on track, and help with communication problems between us both.

Darouet (talk) 23:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Granai airstrike discussion

I am a clerk/mediator here at the Misplaced Pages dispute resolution noticeboard. As a starting point, could I get all parties to read Talk:List of events named massacres (Section: Criteria for including events in this list)? Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 00:13, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I think it is a silly dispute. The article presents the facts: the United States killed approximately 86 to 145 Afghan civilians, mostly women and children. I don't think many readers will have trouble figuring out whether a 'massacre' took place. Whether or not the article is placed in the category "massacres in Afghanistan" ... who cares? It won't change the facts, nor the conclusion people draw from those facts. Dlabtot (talk) 01:16, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in wikipedia should be able to change the facts, but if Randy2063 would like to remove the article from the category, I'd like him to discuss it with third parties. -Darouet (talk) 03:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

By the way Guy Macon, thanks for providing the criteria for listing events as massacres. For my part I find them reasonable. -Darouet (talk) 03:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's a silly dispute. Real "massacres" are supposed to be deliberate. We already have a category called "Civilian casualties in the War in Afghanistan (2001–present)" for incidents like this one. But some people love the emotional power they think they get from the word "massacre".

If there wasn't any emotional power, everyone would be happy with the other category. But the word "massacre" says a lot more. It clearly implies that the pilot wanted to kill civilians. Darouet (who initiated this dispute resolution) even said that he believes it was deliberate, although there's nothing to suggest such a thing.

As we all should know, this simply isn't true. We have an article falsely claiming that a living person (albeit unknown at the present time) had committed a war crime.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 04:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you have any arguments that might convince us to adopt your "deliberate" criteria rather than the criteria listed on Talk:List of events named massacres#Criteria for including events in this list? --Guy Macon (talk) 05:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Deliberate intent is a requirement in common English usage. We don't call the Titanic's sinking a massacre. We don't even use the word for the more obvious cases of negligence.

As for the criteria listed in that talk page, this event fails those tests. That page even includes it in WikiProject Crime. This hasn't been ruled to be a crime.

My reasoning is the same as that of the press. The mainstream press usually puts "massacre" in quotes on the occasions that they used it for this event.

It is generally called a "massacre" by people who support the other side of the war, but they're not reliable sources.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 13:10, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying, Randy, that you accept the criteria found by Guy Macon, with the stipulation that we also prove that the pilots or other military personnel intended to kill the women and children they killed?

If you want to argue outside those criteria and include definitions as well, how will you convince me or others that "deliberate intent is a requirement in common English usage?" From my reading of the definition of massacre, indiscriminate killing is what is required. It is clear that the pilots intended to kill somebody, and the military has stated that they accidentally killed the wrong people. One major difference between the sinking of the Titanic and the airstrike at Granai is that the captain of the Titanic didn't aim at the iceberg with the intention of fighting an insurgency, and in the process accidentally wipe out a village (he never had intent to kill anyone). The U.S. military did intend to kill people, but as they state themselves that they failed to discriminate between civilians and combatants.

Ultimately a clear set of criteria independent of our own personal definitions will be more helpful in resolving this. -Darouet (talk) 14:08, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Template:CueI'm also a clerk/mediator here on DRN, and I'd like to suggest something here: it seems to me that we're talking about proving this pilot's intent (or premeditation). At Misplaced Pages, that is not what we do. I realize this is a categorization dispute, but it seems to me that this would be the time to turn to outside sources. Sleddog116 (talk) 14:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm saying that I've looked at the examples and dispute that any of them apply here.

The crew of that aircraft didn't aim at women and children. Just as the captain of the Titanic didn't intend to sink his ship, the pilots didn't intend to kill children.

Before it can become a matter of proving they wanted to kill innocents, we have to see if anyone seriously believes they wanted to kill innocents. We have no RS that say it happened that way. Reporters use "massacre" in quotes because they can't say it themselves.

We should go by proper journalistic standards. I know that's tough to do in this environment but Misplaced Pages likes to bill itself as striving for these standards.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 15:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

In Anglo-American law, I believe, one who intends an act is presumed to intend the likely results of that act. I'm just sayin'. —Tamfang (talk) 17:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Two cents from Greg

I haven't been involved in this debate and haven't read all of the above but I'll give my two cent for anyone interested. The pragmatic side is that anyone interested in researching "massacres in Afghanistan" might be interested in this so it could be useful to them to include this in that category (I'm assuming that's what categories are useful for? I've never used them much myself). But other items in that category should be checked to see what the rule has been so far for inclusion to be consistent. I'm not sure what level of intent is required for a "massacre" and whether that level of intent was met in this incident, not could the reliable sources even be sure of that one. Policy is probably fairly clear that it needs to be described as a massacre by at least one reliable sources. The Times is cited in the article but there is a paywall so I can't verify. If it does describe the event as a "massacre" then that should make the decision easy. If we need to go to your "Asian" sources, then you can check those sources at the reliable sources noticeboard for the description of "massacre". Gregcaletta (talk) 16:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

The Times story ("Whistleblowers on US ‘massacre’ fear CIA stalkers") uses the word "massacre" in two places. One is in their story title, which I've always been wary of because titles are often not written by the reporter. Regardless, as you can see here, the title puts the word in quotes, which means the newspaper isn't calling it an actual massacre.

The other place they use the word is in this sentence: "It is said to concern the so-called “Granai massacre”, when American aircraft dropped 500lb and 1,000lb bombs on a suspected militant compound in Farah province on May 4 last year." Note, again, that they put the word in quotes.

It is called a "massacre" by people who support the enemy (yes, Assange admits that he does). If Misplaced Pages wants to support that standard, it should say so.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:52, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad that we're consulting the sources rather than debating intent, and I think we have a consensus to do that.

• From the Asian Tribune, "In Afghanistan, meanwhile, U.S. soldiers and unpiloted drones have killed thousands of civilians over the last few years, including nearly a hundred people at Granai alone and another forty seven civilians at a wedding party in Deh Bala. As of yet, no one has been punished for any of these massacres."

• From CBS News: "Manning also found a video and an official report on American air strikes on the village of Granai in Afghanistan's Farah Province (also known as "the Granai massacre"). According to the Afghan government, 140 civilians, including women and a large number of children, died in those strikes."

• From the Hindustan Times: "Meanwhile, the whistleblower magnet WikiLeaks.org is releasing its second blockbuster video (NYSE:BBI) of the season - footage of the May 4, 2009, massacre in the Afghan village of Granai, where heavy bombing killed at least 100 civilians, most of them children."

• From the Washington Times: "On May 4, American bombers killed as many as 147 Afghan civilians, 93 of them children, in an air strike in western Afghanistan that locals call the Farah Massacre."

• Reprint by the BBC Monitoring Europe: " 'Parliament should meet as soon as possible on the Afghanistan issue, because an exit strategy is necessary for the withdrawal of Italy's troops from a conflict which leaves no glimpse of an end.' In the view of Claudio Fava, the coordinator of the national secretariat of Left, Ecology, Freedom (Italian: Sinistra Ecologia Liberta), 'the Farah massacre is a massacre foretold.' " (Sorry, I don't have a weblink. "Text of report by Italian leading privately-owned centre-right daily Corriere della Sera website, on 9 October")

• Reprint by The Australian: "Mr Assange claims surveillance has intensified as he and his colleagues prepare to put out their Afghan film. It is said to concern the so-called Granai massacre, when US aircraft dropped bombs on a suspected militant compound in Farah province on May 4 last year. Several children were among the dead." (Originally from the Times)

I think these reliable sources clearly demonstrate that many people, including but not always the writers for these papers themselves, call the event a massacre. And I strongly object to the idea that anyone who calls this a massacre "supports the enemy," whatever that means, exactly. -Darouet (talk) 17:29, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

May I suggest deferring the question of proving they wanted to kill innocents until someone provides a logical argument for using intent as a criteria instead of the Criteria Misplaced Pages uses now? --Guy Macon (talk) 17:39, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Darouet: All of those are either opinion pieces (including from extremists) or they're quoting an extremist.

Guy: What's Misplaced Pages using now other than RS? Right now, it appears that your only rule is that some RS is quoting someone (even a propagandist), and then that's enough.

How far does that rule go? If someone who supports the Taliban calls President Obama a murderer, does that mean we can put him in a category for murderers? I don't see how. Or do your standards only slip if the military is being libeled?

Perhaps you should change the name of the category to "Things that anyone calls a massacre." You can't even call this one an alleged massacre.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 18:16, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Randy, the criteria upon which we agreed state that inclusion "is based solely on evidence in multiple reliable sources that a name including the word 'massacre' is one of the accepted names for that event." As examples, the criteria use these:

• "The killing of the students was described by local media as the 'High School massacre.'"
• "When the army's operation was debated in the National Assembly, the Prime Minister angrily attacked the widespread anti-government protests for calling Operation Clearout 'the Newtown massacre.'"

As you can see from the second example, the Prime Minister does not believe the event is a massacre, but it is called so by "widespread anti-government protests" and reported by a reliable source. Clearly, the term extremist is a relative one (though I would never be so presumptuous, I could imagine that some might even mistakenly think you were an "extremist"), and isn't a fair way of evaluating sources. All of the sources above are established, even venerable ones, and in only one case are they even quoting somebody. In that case, the BBC (or Corriere della Sera) is quoting someone from the "Left, Ecology, Freedom" party. They're on the left; they're not "extremists." -Darouet (talk) 19:00, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment - The criteria for categorization is simply whether WP:Reliable sources describe the airstrike as a massacre. We do not look at intent. When the sources are mixed (some call it a massacre, many do not) we have to use some judgement. Categories have a stronger requirement for sourcing than lists or than text within an article. The reason categories have strong requirements is because there is no way for an entry in a category to be accompanied by an explanation or footnote to give the reader context or nuance. Contrast with Lists, where an entry in a List can be accompanied by supplemental information to give context and nuance. Since only a few sources describe Granai as a masscre, and many do not describe it as a massacre, it probably should not be in the Category. However, there is a compromise solution: include the Granai airstrike article in the List of massacres in Afghanistan and include the list in Category:Massacres in Afghanistan. That way, readers browsing the categories will see the List article, and see Granai within that List. Indeed, this compromise is already in place: Granai is in the List, and the List is in the Category. So, the only action that should be taken now is to remove Granai airstrike from the Cateogry. --Noleander (talk) 19:05, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

BTW, some Google stats on how commonly the airstrike is called a massacre: "granai airstrike -massacre" is 43K ghits; "granai massacre" is 77K ghits. That means 43/77 or over half of all references in Google do not include the word massacre. --Noleander (talk) 19:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

And, just to clarify: I agree 100% that the "massacre" sources & material should be included in the article itself. My comments above are limited to the issue of whether it belongs in the Category, where no context or nuance can be provided to the reader. --Noleander (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if using different criteria than those discussed above is better (it may well be appropriate). I think it is clear that the descriptions by sources listed above meet the criteria for inclusion into a list for massacres (actually those criteria are not especially stringent). The criteria proposed by Noleander are also those used for naming articles, and are perhaps too stringent as criteria for inclusion in categories (though I'm willing to admit I might be wrong, as I actually don't know). For instance, placing an article like the Granai Airstrike in a massacre category is not equivalent to placing it in a war crimes categories, which strongly implies that the perpetrators were war criminals (and that is a major BLP problem).

• From the perspective of news sources, a search using the news database "LexisNexis" for "Granai massacre" yields 6 non-duplicate articles (The Australian, The Sunday Times London, CBS News, Antiwar.com, 2 from Pacific Free Press),
• Whereas "Granai airstrike" yields 5 (Tulsa World, Hindustan Times, Weekend Australian, New York Times, and International Herald Tribune); none of those include the term massacre.
• A similar search for "Farah massacre" yields two articles (BBC Monitoring Europe and Washington Times),
• Whereas "Farah airstrike" yields 6 (Sunday Times, Pajhwok Afghan News, New York Times, the Frontrunner, Washington Post, International Herald Tribune); none of those include the term massacre.

For any horrific event (we all can agree this was one), there will be plenty of news sources describing it. In this case all would be obliged to write about the airstrike. But even if many came to consider the event a massacre (and many do in this case), not all sources, in describing the event, would also call the event a massacre. That 34/77k google hits do describe the airstrike as a massacre might or might not qualify it to be the title of the page on Misplaced Pages (that was discussed on the talk pages). However I would think that it especially would qualify it to belong in the massacre category. -Darouet (talk) 21:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, those are some good points. This Categorization is not a black & white issue: it is a borderline case. I posted a query on the WP:Categorization talk page, asking for others to provide more input. This reminds me of a situation I saw a couple of years ago, where the consensus was to remove (!) several notable persons from List of atheists when the persons said "I don't believe in God"; because the requirement for those lists is that the person must say "I am an atheist". And those were Lists, where a footnote explaining context/nuance was available. --Noleander (talk) 22:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

You can call me an extremist all day. ("Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.") I might even say that half the Guantanamo lawyers support war crimes, but I don't go around tagging their articles with the war criminal category. (That was an exaggeration; it's probably only about one out of ten.) Perhaps real massacres aren't taken as seriously as they should be.

I see what you're thinking about massacre and war crime being different, but I think they're too close. You must have some of the same feelings or you would have been satisfied with the "civilian casualties" category.

That may be the main problem. Maybe you think this is some kind of a moral stamp of disapproval that doesn't require legal review. But I think it requires something more. The press must think the same thing when they use quotes around the word.

I'll see what Guy says about whether it would be appropriate to call President Obama a murderer based solely on what an enemy of the U.S. says.

I don't think counting google hits works that way. The way Google works, not every hit is going to actually use the word. See Google bomb.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 22:22, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

You want to know what Guy says? Guy says that Misplaced Pages's criteria for whether to call Granai a massacre is at Talk:List of events named massacres#Criteria for including events in this list. Each of you has three choices. You can attempt to get Misplaced Pages's criteria changed (Go to Talk:List of events named massacres if you wish to try) You can accept Misplaced Pages's criteria and edit the page accordingly, or you can refuse to accept Misplaced Pages's criteria and end up warned and, if you persist, blocked. This issue is settled. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry if I hit some kind of a sore spot.

I'll keep what you said in mind for whenever I return to more frequent editing.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 12:45, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, I think for my part that I'll edit the page according to those criteria. Thanks for helping us locate them and for your patience with us. -Darouet (talk) 15:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The statement "I'll see what Guy says about whether it would be appropriate to call President Obama a murderer based solely on what an enemy of the U.S. says." did annoy me, and I apologize if I reacted too strongly. I think it does bring up an important issue though. When that was written, nobody expected anyone to pop up and say that it was an accurate paraphrase of their position. I know the feeling well - sometimes I think that if I write a really clever zinger like that everyone will see it and immediately see that I am right on the issue. In reality, it causes the opposition to dig in their heels and impedes any attempt to come to an agreement.

One thing that may help is for all parties to agree to go through a process where each of you states a paraphrase / depiction of each others position and then discuss and rewrite until both sides agree that the other side has accurately portrayed their position. To do this, you need to decide to not play any games like telling them that they must believe X because they believe Y or in any other way refusing to accept what they say about their own position. This process takes an annoyingly long time, but how can you ever reach agreement if you are fighting a strawman?

Having said that, I am inclined to close this as being resolved. Does anyone disagree, and if so, what can DRN do to help resolve the remaining issues? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:00, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I think there are two big differences between including a massacre in the List of events named massacres and including in a category such as Category:Massacres in Afghanistan. First, the list is restricted to events that have "massacre" in the name (vs simply are massacres); and second, Lists always can be more liberal about what they include, because they can contain footnotes etc. So the criteria for List of events named massacres may provide some good guidance, but they do not precisely apply to a categorization issue. For instance, an event may be considered a massacre by all sources; yet still not belong in the List of events named massacres because its common name does not include that word. Conversely, an event may be in a List of massacres because it is borderline/marginal (according to the sources) massacre, yet it may be omitted from the corresponding category because that borderline information cannot be expressed in a Category (but can be in a list). But, if the parties are willing to accept the more restrictive (avoiding the categorization) for this particular dispute, that is fine with me. --Noleander (talk) 18:14, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

For example, a few events that are in a massacre category, but would not belong in that List are: Cananea strike, Yekatit 12, and Negro Rebellion. --Noleander (talk) 18:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Many of the items in the massacre category suffer from the same problem.

I have gripes but I didn't want to stick around this long.

The main sticking point for me is that this is a significantly lower standard than that used by the Times in the reference. They only put the word "massacre" in quotes. I don't think the BBC or the NYT used the word at all.

BTW, Guy: That wasn't simply a stinger. I really wanted an answer to that question. But in retrospect, I suppose the standard of "murderer" was set by a different group of editors.

This will be a much bigger problem if the pilots' names are ever leaked, and it becomes a definite BLP issue.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 19:07, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I find Noleander's argument to be compelling, and I retract my formerly stated opinion; I am now convinced that we cannot blindly apply the criteria from a list to a category. So, where can we find an objective set of criteria for inclusion/exclusion in the category? --Guy Macon (talk) 19:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any specific WP policy on massacre categories. The generic guidance from WP:Categorization says "Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view. Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate." I think for this particular dispute, that generic guidance suggests that the category should be avoided. --Noleander (talk) 19:37, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Technically, both the Cananea strike and the Yekatit 12, which are categorized as massacres, would fit the criteria put forward by the list. The "Cananea strike" is also known as the "Cananea massacre," and the "Yekatit 12" event includes the "Graziani Massacre." I don't know if other sources besides that given also refer to Cananea as a massacre, though for the Yekatit article, the source provided is scholarly.

The advantage of the list criteria provided previously is that they don't rely on our arguing about whether something really is a massacre or not, and instead compel us to demonstrate that, according to reliable sources, an event is considered a massacre by many people in some way.

I understand that we can't place footnotes on a categorization, but please forgive me for pointing out that there will almost always be "two sides to every massacre:" massacres are by nature controversial. We have well demonstrated that the event we are discussing here, the Granai airstrike, is also known as the "Granai massacre." If categorization is to be uncontroversial, is some greater level of controversy than that inherent in any massacre decided by the presence of a dispute on the talk pages? Or the identification of a controversy in reliable sources (scholars from Armenia and Turkey debate the Armenian genocide endlessly, whatever you'll make of that. I doubt there's substantial debate outside Turkey).

I'm sorry to give you all a hard time, but for reasons that have already been reviewed above, if the indiscriminate destruction of a village full of women and children is called a massacre both by locals and by many reliable sources, but cannot be categorized as a massacre, then the category of massacre may simply be an inoperable one. And that can be OK, actually, because there are lists, this is an encyclopedia, and in the end we have to work out a reasonable framework for classification. But I would suggest that the presence of many "massacre" categories means that Misplaced Pages has not yet determined the massacre category to be intractable. That could change.

Lastly, relating to the issue of footnotes, I really don't think that most readers who read this page, and see the massacre category, will be confused as to why it is so classified. -Darouet (talk) 20:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Reliable sources say that critics of the U.S. side of the war are calling it a "massacre." Democracy Now isn't exactly NPOV.

I don't doubt that ignorant local villagers would be calling it a "massacre." They were probably told that the pilots had been targeting the women and children. That's an even lower standard than I'd been crediting this argument with.

It might be easier to just change the name of the category, and get rid of the "civilian casualties" cat altogether. But then it would be hard to find an NPOV name that's still judgmental enough for you.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 21:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Although I am no longer convinced that the list criteria apply to categories, if we do apply it, Talk:List of events named massacres#Criteria for including events in this list specifically allows non-NPOV but reliable sources. Look at the fourth item in the table of examples. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:32, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You're saying that NPOV doesn't apply to categories. I think that page is wrong.

If they're right, then you need to change this at WP:NPOV so that everyone knows about it.

You can't have one set of rules for things called "massacres" and another set of rules for everything else.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 13:47, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You are doing it again. You wrote "You're saying that..." followed by something I did not say. This behavior is inappropriate. Don't do it again.

I don't think that WP:NPOV says what you think it does. If you look at the history of Talk:List of events named massacres you will see that a lot of thought by a number of editors went into the wording chosen. In particular, read Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Naming.

As for your theory that we cannot call something what its opposition calls it, It is found nowhere in WP:NPOV or any other Misplaced Pages policy. As far as I can tell, the only people who call a certain series of events in WWII a "holocaust" are strongly opposed to killing millions of Jews. Yet we still use that label. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:20, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Neutral third opinion: "The Granai airstrike, sometimes called the Granai massacre, refers to the killing of approximately 86 to 145 Afghan civilians" - This is a clear cut case. It belongs in the category. It's in Afghanistan, we have reliable sources calling it a massacre. It's a done deal. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:36, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Guy, you most certainly did say it "specifically allows non-NPOV but reliable sources." I was just rephrasing it. If my rephrase was wrong then you should have explained what was different.

The reliable sources, in this case, aren't calling it a massacre. They're saying that it's been called a massacre by critics of the U.S. side of the war.

But I'm not going to waste a weekend arguing over this. Clearly, the "civilian casualties" category isn't inflammatory enough, and this kind of stuff will pop up again and again regardless.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 16:21, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The difference between

"NPOV doesn't apply to categories"

and

"Talk:List of events named massacres specifically allows non-NPOV but reliable sources."

Is that the first assumes without evidence that WP:NPOV forbids the use of non-NPOV but reliable sources for this purpose (or perhaps you are claiming that WP:NPOV forbids the use of non-NPOV but reliable sources for any purpose.) This assertion is not backed up by anything in WP:NPOV

BTW, it is not my responsibility to monitor your posts and correct the places where you put words in my mouth. It is your responsibility to refrain from doing so. If you are incapable of paraphrasing without setting up a strawman, don't paraphrase at all. And you certainly should not defend your misstating of other editor's positions. And, given your misunderstanding of WP:NPOV, I suggest that in the future you quote (not paraphrase) the exact wording of the portion of WP:NPOV that you believe supports your position. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:07, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

As I understood it, non-NPOV sources can be used if attributed. This is, after all, what the Times did when they put "massacre" in quotes. I just didn't think that counted for a category.

I'm sorry if you didn't like my rephrasing. If you'll recall, you had suggested, "One thing that may help is for all parties to agree to go through a process where each of you states a paraphrase / depiction of each others position and then discuss and rewrite until both sides agree that the other side has accurately portrayed their position."

Obviously, you didn't think I did this very well. And for that, I'm sorry.

IAC, as I indicated earlier, I'm done with this one. You can have it.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 20:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Assam#Etymology

• Assam#Etymology (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

The current dispute is about the section Assam#Etymology. Specifically, it is about whether the name "Assam" can be traced to 13th century Shan invaders. A general consensus does exist that the name can be traced to them, but which User:Bhaskarbhagawati is resisting. A third opinion was requested, (for the discussion, look here: Talk:Assam#Etymology_of_Assam). At the end of the section two alternative texts are given: Talk:Assam#Alternate_Text_1 (User:Bhaskarbhagawati) and Talk:Assam#Alternate_text_2 (User:Chaipau). User:H_tan_H_epi_tas responded to the Third Opinion request. User:Chaipau has accepted the verdict, but User:Bhaskarbhagawati has responded by questioning the status of User:H_tan_H_epi_tas.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Chaipau (talk · contribs)
• Bhaskarbhagawati (talk · contribs)
• H_tan_H_epi_tas (talk · contribs)

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Assam#Etymology}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

At first, attempts at discussion with User:Bhaskarbhagawati were unsuccessful. Messages left at his talk pages were blanked (see here). Comments on the talk pages were also deleted (see here). Then a Third Opinion request was made, which has led to an ad hominem attack on the Third Opinion responder.

• How do you think we can help?
  1. General guidelines what the next step should be.
  2. Examine Talk:Assam#Alternate_Text_1 and Talk:Assam#Alternate_text_2 and judge which text is acceptable for Misplaced Pages.

Chaipau (talk) 15:00, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Assam#Etymology discussion

• Maybe the original page section should be protected in some way to avoid further complications until an agreement is reached. As the Third Opinion provider, I make clear that I have never talked to either editor before and never had read the article in question before. I am not a resident or a national of the area either. I provided my unbiased opinion based on the alternate texts provided by the editors and the discussion in "talk". I read the arguments again tonight, and I still adhere by my original position that The Alternate text 2 suggested by User:Chaipau is better written, more clear, more rounded and with better and more critical use of references. In addition, User:Chaipau made a compromise already and accepted my suggestion that it should be pointed out to the readers that some uncertainty still remains regarding the etymology. So the Alternate Text 2 clearly states that "Though association of the name with the Shan invaders is widely accepted the precise origin of the name is not clear.". I think this is a fair approach to the etymology issue. In addition, I noticed that User:bbhagawati is indeed of the habit to blanking his "talk" page, where I had left a warning for him, because he accused me of being a fraudster.

--H tan H epi tas (talk) 19:10, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

• User:BhaskarBhagawati asked for a reference, and I have provided a scan of three pages of the book "Aspects of Early Assamese Literature". They are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=File%3AKakati1953_early_aspects_assamese_pp1%2C2.pdf

--Chaipau (talk) 19:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Though I am a regular mediator/clerk here at DRN, I do not care to intervene at this time into the substance of this dispute, but would like to make a couple of procedural comments: First, it should be borne in mind that opinions issued through the Third Opinion Project are in no way binding and are entirely advisory, for reasons I describe in detail here. Second, except in a very few instances it is perfectly acceptable for a user to blank his or her own talk page, including most kinds of warnings. Doing so is considered to be an acknowledgment, however, that the user has read and understood everything that they remove. See WP:REMOVED for a list of what cannot be removed and a complete discussion of the matter. Third, on the other hand, it is considered a violation of the rules to remove or modify other users' comments on any talk page other than your own, with a considerable list of exceptions which can be found at WP:TPO; having said that, it should be noted that this noticeboard is not a place to discuss or complain about conduct violations such as that. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:59, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I would like to clarify that the examples of personal talk page blanking (and the absence of any reply) was given as an example of what transpired during the effort to discuss the issue and come to a compromise. Though I have given an example of User:Bhaskarbhagawati deleting my replies to his comment, I am not asking for an arbitration on this, even though I know this is a serious violation of Misplaced Pages rules. I shall be satisfied with some binding decision on the text, since right now Assam#Etymology looks like a bloody battlefield, as does the rest of the article. The sooner we can move on, the better. --Chaipau (talk) 20:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, another procedural note: There is no mechanism or procedure in Misplaced Pages by which to make binding decisions on content. All content in Misplaced Pages is included or excluded via consensus and even once a consensus matter is decided, pro or con, consensus can change. The closest Misplaced Pages comes to a mechanism to make a binding content decision is to invite the wider Misplaced Pages community to a discussion via a request for comments, but the purpose of even that is to try to come to consensus about an content matter. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:38, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

The contentious statement is The academic consensus is that current name "Assam" is based on the English word Assam. I would like to think that Misplaced Pages procedural rules can pass a binding decision on a nonsensical statement like "Assam is based on Assam". The quote User:Bhagawati has provided in the reference claims "Assamese is based on the English word Assam", which is true, but which does not claim what User:Bhaskarbhagawati is claiming that "Assam is based on the English word Assam". Elsewhere I have given quotes from a number of standard references (I can explain further, if needed) where it is accepted that the name is associated with the Shan (Ahom) invaders. Please note that the phrase "academic consensus" was originally used in this context: "The academic consensus is that the current name is associated with the Ahom rulers who reigned for nearly six hundred years, as evidenced from Satyendra Nath Sarma's quote from Banikanta Kakati", which User:Bhaskarbhagawati co-opts for the opposing view with a dubious reference, here. Originally, the academic consensus was shown to have been demonstrated when Satyendranath Sharma accepted Banikanta Kakati's position. This User:Bhagawati has edited away. --Chaipau (talk) 12:33, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

• I know that Third Opinion is not binding. Just wrote a summary here about where I stand, since my username is involved, to help other contributors forming an opinion. Also, I wanted to point out that disputing editors should try to show at least some good faith towards a third opinion, or else this procedural mechanism gets completely redundant and futile.

--H tan H epi tas (talk) 00:09, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

• I, like TransporterMan, am a volunteer clerk/mediator here at WP:DRN. I would like to expand on one point; earlier, the word "arbitration" came up. Here on DRN, we offer mediation, not arbitration. The key difference is that DRN was purposely designed to have no power to make anyone do anything. All we can do is to help you to resolve your dispute, or, failing that, guide you as to where to go next. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:36, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you TransporterMan and Guy Macon. We tried to negotiate one-on-one, then invited a third opinion and now we are widening the discussion so that a resolution can become possible. We shall await a decision here, and if needed shall go to the next level, according to the advice we receive here. Chaipau (talk) 22:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks User:Guy Macon for communication, though i am already following the discussion here and not wanted to interfere while procedures are being explained. Now, i like to put my view which is already discussed in Talk:Assam but i like to mention the same here too that i said "Assam is an English word used by British to refer a piece of land in North East India and same word is never used locally before and never referred to any tribe but land". For which i have provided the views of Scholars which mentioned both in main article and talk page. But further i like to add following links of national newspapers and websites which directed towards news item regarding proposal of name change of state of Assam due to its foreign linkage. Here are links, this Link is already there in main article for some time referring to said developments and this i like add few more: Link, Link, Link, Link

Thanks !

bbhagawati (talk) 06:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Bhaskarbhagawati's claim, that "Assam is an English word used by British to refer a piece of land in North East India and same word is never used locally before and never referred to any tribe but land" is false. Assam and its equivalents were used to refer to both the Ahom community as well as the kingdom. Banikanta Kakati has said here: "Though the Shan invaders called themselves "Tai", they came to be referred to as Āsam, Āsām and Ācam by the indigenous people of the province. Early Assamese chronicles used all these variant forms to mean the new Shan invaders." This is accepted by Satyendranath Sharma, Amalendu Guha and others. Chaipau (talk) 15:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I am a bit lost as far as the actual dispute here is concerned. I just don't feel confident that my opinion would be correct - it is too far out of my area of expertise. Looks like your RfC had the same problem. Is there any chance that the two of you could work out a compromise? I am thinking something along the line of "source A says X, source B says Y" with each of you providing your best sources. I can see that you both really care about making the article better, and clearly this dispute is working against that. Look in your heart and ask yourself how far you are willing to bend toward the other position. Maybe we can get you to meet in the middle. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Maybe we can begin by examining the unambiguous statements made by Banikanta Kakati. User:Bhaskarbhagawati's position number (1) that "Assam is based on Assam" is refuted by Kakati's "The word 'Assamese' is an English one based on the the anglicised form 'Assam' from the native word "Asam", which in its turn is connected with the Shans who invaded the Brahmaputra Valley in the 13th century." User:Bhaskarbhagawati's position (2) that the name is not related to the Ahom's is refuted by Kakati's statement "Though the Shan invaders called themselves "Tai", they came to be referred to as Āsam, Āsām and Ācam by the indigenous people of the province. Early Assamese chronicles used all these variant forms to mean the new Shan invaders." Please read section 2, "Origin of 'Assam'" in the scan I have provided below (it is a multi-page PDF file).

File:Kakati1953 early aspects assamese pp1,2.pdf

The links that User:BhaskarBhagawati has provided in his note in fact refutes his own position number (1). From his first link, this is a quote: "The word Assam was coined during the colonial period. Historically, it was Asom, but during British rule Assam Tea became so famous as a brand that colonial rulers did not attempt to correct the state's name," said Priyam Goswami, head of Gauhati University's History department. All the links User:Bhaskarbhagawati has provided are newspaper links and they are silent on his assertion number (2).

Chaipau (talk) 12:35, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually it is a matter of controversy in State itself, so its obviously difficult for others to form a opinion. As matter is controversial in nature, i have already suggested earlier and doing again that it should mentioned POV's of different Scholars and Specialists (not own) with proper sourcing. Hope it concludes the discussion.

Thanks for opinion !

bbhagawati (talk) 12:19, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

It seems Compromise and Scholarly POV's (as advised by mediator) won't work here.

Anyway regarding my position according to the disputing user that number (1) that "Assam is based on Assam" (actually its current name Assam is based on English word Assam) refuted by Kakati's "The word 'Assamese' is an English one based on the the anglicised form 'Assam' from the native word "Asam", which in its turn is connected with the Shans who invaded the Brahmaputra Valley in the 13th century."' We can easily see in the quote of said author that current name is English word which is inspired by native name Asam. Though native name was connected to medieval tribe but current name was used by British referring to piece of land (not tribe). Please note we are here discussing about only current name i.e Assam. And when i said based on English word without referring to its origin, i tried to say that particular word is English one.

And regarding my position (according to same user) (2) that the name is not related to the Ahom's is refuted by Kakati's statement "Though the Shan invaders called themselves "Tai", they came to be referred to as Āsam, Āsām and Ācam by the indigenous people of the province. Early Assamese chronicles used all these variant forms to mean the new Shan invaders." And asking for reading section 2 provided by him, "Origin of 'Assam'" scan copy. We are here discussing about current name only not about other names. So while preceding mentioned names maybe connected to a tribe but current name which possibly inspired from native name (its a another issue yet to discussed in details) is used only to refer to a large piece of land not some tribe by British. So meaning of current name Assam will be "an state in North east India" but preceding mentioned names (which we are not concerned here) are related to a medieval tribe possibly. so its meaning and references has huge differences. Current word is related to land only for which said word was coined. The upload page which disputing user refers to is itself mentioned "Assam" as an Anglicize word. I like to give an example, the name "America" is taken from "Amerigo Vespucci", but word America does not refer to said person but only the source word "Amerigo". This example is directly not applicable here because unlike America the inspiring word of English word "Assam" is not yet ascertained. On support of my claim i like to forward some views of greatest Scholars State has ever produced:

Banikanta Kakati says -

The word Assamese is an English one,built on the same principle as Cingalese, Canarese etc. It is based on the English word Assam.

Satyendranath Sarma says:-

Assamese is the easternmost Indo-Aryan language of India, spoken by nearly eight millions of people inhabiting mostly the Brahmaputra valley of Assam. The word Assamese is an English formation built on the same principle as Simhalese or Canarese etc. It is based on the English word Assam by which the British rulers referred to the tract covered by the Brahmaputra valley and its adjoining areas. But the people call their country Asama and their language Asamiya.

Due to fact that State government propose to parliament of the country for name change of State for its foreign links. Experts from State government also includes the Ex president of highest literacy body of State. Links are provided above in my previous posts. So i like to remind again that my claim is that current name "Assam" is an "English" word used by British to refer to a piece of land in "North East India" not a tribe. And this dispute is about current name not about any other names. Thats all i like to say.

There is an old saying that its easy to wake up a sleeping person but no so easy when pretending.

Thanks !

bbhagawati (talk) 15:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Every place-name used in English is trivially an English word – Russia(n) and Brazil(ian) and Egypt(ian) are English words – so why go out of our way to say that Assam, which appears in the English Misplaced Pages, is an English word? The phrase "based on the English word Assam" implies that the invaders imported the name from England and said, "This place needs a name; what words aren't we using already? Ah, Assam, a fine English word that doesn't mean anything yet, we can call it that." Why not be you satisfied with a compromise such as "Asam (or Ahom or Ačam) was (or is) the name of a tribe, adopted in English in the form Assam and applied to the territory"? —Tamfang (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Coca tea

Not a dispute, no parties named User is forum shopping (see his talk page and contributions) Guy Macon (talk) 01:16, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

BP

• BP (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

I am noticing bias on the BP article. There is only one other editor active on the page and we do not see things the same way. He sees my edits as POV pushing and continues to undo them. I see his editing as POV pushing and obviously pro-BP. He is having a hard time refraining from sharing his displeasure with me, which makes discussion a dead-end venture.

Here is the discussion: ] Here is the edit in question: ]

I took the problem to and received only one reply, which was in complete agreement with my stance. But this did nothing to help the situation.

There is an edit war going on as he has reverted my edit 3 times, and I have done the same (not in a 24 hour period though).

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Rangoon11 (talk · contribs)
• Petrarchan47 (talk · contribs)

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=BP}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Discussion and POV noticeboard

• How do you think we can help?

Please give suggestions for where to go from here. We may need some administrators to take a look and see which editor is POV pushing, and perhaps to ban them from editing the page, to me it looks like the other editor is working on behalf of BP to make their Misplaced Pages article favorable. Also, help with the edit in question would be great.

petrarchan47c 01:58, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

BP discussion

Here are 2 discussions regarding other edits which look like POV pushing to me and . petrarchan47c 02:32, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I think an administrator's input could help. It looks to me that the points sought to be included are relevant and appropriate to this article. There seem to be only two editors involved and the opposition to the edit seems emotional and out of perspective.Coaster92 (talk) 05:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

We aren't administrators here, but we are volunteer mediators. The goal here is to reach agreement. Right now I am waiting until both parties have posted their arguments. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:44, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Following Petrarchan47's comment above in which they state that 'to me it looks like the other editor is working on behalf of BP to make their Misplaced Pages article favorable. Also, help with the edit in question would be great.', and in view of their repeated attempts to impose changes to the lead of this article, despite having been reverted for very good reasons and a discussion being ongoing on the article talk page, I am unwilling to enter into any further discussion with them.

I have made over 130 edits to the BP article. Anyone is free to compare the state of the article when I started working on it and the position today. My edits speak for themselves. Rangoon11 (talk) 10:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

For those who don't have the time to follow links to various discussions, I thought I would give a summary. Reading the intro to the BP article, the third paragraph stopped me in my tracks. It was one sentence mentioning that BP has had some environmental and political problems. That is well known, and flushed out in the body of the article. But in the same paragraph was a diatribe about BP's green energy investments. To me the structure of this paragraph seems to be a statement that is not favorable to BP followed by a rebuttal. I cannot see any other reason for these two ideas to be bunched together. To remedy what I saw as POV, I separated the 2 ideas, and added the most recent petrol investments I could find at the end to give a more rounded picture. From the body of the article: "BP's investment in green technologies peaked at 4% of its exploratory budget, but they have since closed their alternative energy headquarters in London. As such they invest more than other oil companies..." to give some idea of just how out of balance is the 3rd paragraph of the intro.

This edit has been undone 4 times now, and I have been told to "go get a blog" based on this edit. As you can see from the discussion, I was labeled a POV pusher based on my editing after this and my earlier edits, which consisted of updating the "Solar" section. BP ended its Solar programme at the beginning of the year and posted their reasoning on their website, saying it was no longer profitable. I updated the article with this information, making statements past-tense. The article still had a section about Solar in the present tense, with a picture of Solar panels. Rangoon11 immediately deleted BP's stated reason for ending it's Solar programme but did not explain why he did so. I added it back. I also removed the image of solar panels as it gave a false impression. This edit was not disputed.

Based on these edits, Rangoon had this to say: " Your edits to this article to date are very concerning as they all appear to be motivated by a desire to push a certain POV rather than to actually develop the article. Breaking out the sentence 'BP has been involved in a number of major environmental and safety incidents and received criticism for its political influence' into a one line paragraph is about as classic an example of POV pushing as I can imagine, designed purely to emphasise a negative aspect of the company.

...I also find it interesting that you think that that sentence and the remainder of the paragraph are so unrelated that they should not even be in the same paragraph, but then wish yourself to make a highly POV linkage between the amount that BP invests in renewables and in oil and gas through the use of the words 'By comparison'. I fully expect that you will fail to see the hypocrisy of this but I personally find it offensive.''"

In my opinion, to not break out the sentence (and yes, it should be flushed out a bit, i imagine it used to be a fuller argument but has been whittled down over time) is to hide the sentence, and to mute the facts. To follow it with BP's 4% investments in Green Energy is pure POV and more specifically "greenwashing".

Rangoon11 rebuttal above is alarming as well. The number of edits one has made to an article does not in any way give that editor ownership or privilege. But this editor does appear to have an attitude of ownership over this article. He is also working somewhat closely with a BP employee who is giving editing advice - I add this for your information but I am not claiming that this is a problem. I don't see it as such yet, but it is interesting how friendly Rangoon11 is with the BP employee compared with his attitude towards me.

"My edits speak for themselves" "I have made over 130 edits to the page" This gives me pause based on certain edits. One of the most noteworthy facts about the BP oil spill is that is was the largest in US history, and the largest accidental marine oil spill ever. This is a well known and easily verified fact. Yet Rangoon11 saw fit to erase this statement from the BP oil spill section of the article. I brought this up on the talk page asking why. His response was to insinuate he was unaware of any sources verifying this, and asked me for proof. My understanding of Misplaced Pages is that the editor, before removal of statements, should do their own research to find verification. I cannot believe Rangoon11 is being honest about his motives being NPOV, and that he saw fit to remove this bit from the oil spill section because, if I am reading his statement correctly, he hadn't been able to find supporting refs. I gave him 3 refs and he did not respond.

Another edit in question was the removal of a large section detailing the aftermath of the oil spill as it relates to BP's stock, etc. This was a big part of the history of the spill. I have been told that before removing sections from a Misplaced Pages article, editors are to bring the section to the talk page to discuss. His reasoning for the removal included it being "out of date" - but he told me "this article is about BP throughout its history and not merely the present day" when we were discussing me edits to the now defunct solar programme.

I hope someone can tell me how Misplaced Pages deals with companies that might be trying to edit Misplaced Pages articles to better their image. I have a hard time believing it's left up to individual editors who notice POV to deal with it on their own - as you can see it is not easy or effective. The snarky attacks are not fun either.petrarchan47c 21:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, the above violates the request to 'keep it brief'. Let me know if it's better to move this to my talk page, with a link. Thanks. petrarchan47c 21:34, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Petrarchan47, can I ask why you have actually come to this noticeboard at all when you are in parallel simply attempting to force your proposed change to the lead of this article (which is long standing and has been stable for a long period of time, and was the result of discussion)?

Rangoon, I have already stated my reasons for bringing this dispute to this noticeboard. The length of time that the paragraph has been in place is irrelevant. The paragraph either is or is not POV. Outside help is needed as you and I see things quite differently. petrarchan47c 22:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

It is highly relevant. The existing lead is long standing and therefore has the weight of accumulated consensus. It was also the work of multiple editors in discussion. You are attempting to make a non standard and bizarre change, which would create a one line, in fact considerably less than a line on my screen, paragraph, right in the middle of the lead, which is designed purely to give heightened emphasis to negative aspects of the company's history. You have admitted as much yourself, when you say that you feel that the text is currently hidden.

Whilst discussion is underway on this proposed change which has been reverted by an established editor for very good reasons please refrain from your efforts to impose the change through edit warring. Rangoon11 (talk) 22:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I have never come across this type of grief or 'longstanding' (ie, "carved in stone") argument when making changes to the lead of any other article on Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages articles are always a work in progress. I am not alone in seeing the paragraph and your attitude as problematic. You think your reasons for reverting my edits are good ones. I do not. Changes to articles are not based on whether the editors are or editors like me. That's what I love about Misplaced Pages. It is (supposed to be) "for the people, by the people" and edits are to be based on their NPOV - not on who did the edits or on how long the edits have gone unchallenged. I can see why no one would want to challenge edits on this article based on my experience thus far.petrarchan47c 23:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes you have to date have around 140 article edits on WP, I have substantially over 100 times more. I have worked on the leads of I would guess hundreds of company articles and you appear to date to have worked on only that of BP. I do not expect a medal for this or even any thanks. However I do ask that you stand back and ask yourself, "why is Rangoon so anti this particular edit, and yet has not reverted 90% of my edits to the BP article?". My genuine, sincere goal is to make the BP article as good as possible and to make WP as good as possible. A half a line paragraph right in the middle of the lead would draw huge attention to that text, in much the same way as if the text were in bold or italics. Why make that sentence into a single paragraph rather than any of the other sentences? Why not adhere to the usual WP approach of having no more than four paragraphs in the lead? I can't see a good reason for it.

And I don't in any way believe that the current lead is perfect. For example it should in my view have more detail about BP's history. It currently has essentially none. However this particular change would not in my firm view be a step in the right direction.

I would like to add that I do recognise that you have an expertise on Deepwater which I personally lack, and is no doubt rare, and in that regard your recent edits to that section of the article are most welcome. The section was much in need of work. aRangoon11 (talk) 23:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I would imagine the lead is important to you as it is the most-read part of any article by far. As for the single sentence, I stated above that I believe it was probably a larger section that was scrubbed down. And I believe it should be flushed out a bit as it's quite awkward right now, even as it stands with your reversion of my edit. Perhaps you would agree that it needs to be expanded before the change is made. I have no problem with that. I have seen many a lede on Misplaced Pages where a single sentence stood alone in the intro. Over time these things get worked out. The 4 paragraph intro is not a rule, but a recommendation. From In general, the emphasis given to material in the lead should reflect its relative importance to the subject, according to reliable sources. Do not hint at startling facts without describing them. The stand-alone sentence does violate this suggestion but that's easily remedied. The sentence should be expanded to reflect it's importance within the body of the article. The Green Energy part should be whittled down for the same reason. Take a look at the sections within the article to see what I mean.

I am glad you are willing to join the discussion. But, I cannot believe that your sincere goal is to improve the BP article if you would remove important information about the oil spill without doing an ounce of research. You can highlight the sentence and do a Google search in 1 second. Though I have 1/100th of your experience, I would never think to remove a statement from a Misplaced Pages article unless I had a good reason and had done some research first to back up my moves. You never answered me as to why you removed the oil spill information. I assume based on your statements it was to improve the article and Misplaced Pages? Obvious POV is obvious - one needs zero editing experience to recognize it.petrarchan47c 00:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Regarding that specific edit, I can see how it might have put that thought into your head. Please note however that the text 'and caused the biggest accidental marine oil spill in the history of the petroleum industry' was removed from the "Safety record", where I felt it had no relevance, and was purely duplicative of the very long section on Deepwater in the Environmental record section earlier in the article, which deals with the size of the spill. My edit summary of 'dealt with at length higher up' was perhaps unclear on the point, and I should have explained it on the Talk page when you queried it. However I was annoyed by what I felt to be your confrontational attitude in terms of repeatedly making your desired change to the lead despite having been reverted for good reason, and so instead was terse.

I do stand by that specific edit though, that wording is not needed in the safety record section.Rangoon11 (talk) 14:38, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The way it reads now, the Deepwater Explosion caused (only) the deaths of 11 people. That's it, no other consequences you can think of? It also caused the oil spill, which is hinted at with the redirect to the oil spill article. But that is whitewashing if you ask me, and not fair to those who come to seek information. The Deepwater explosion caused a pretty big oil spill and that fact should be added. As it stands now, this is a single sentence section. How can you defend that after all the grief over a single sentence in the lead? Further, I have seen a few examples in your edits of late that scrub data about the financial after effects of the oil spill. This is history and very relevant to this article. It was daily news for about 6 solid months. There is no reason to delete the info altogether. Unless we aren't here to build encyclopedic knowledge but rather to - for whatever reason - mold this Misplaced Pages article into something favorable for BP's image.

Getting back on track: Bias and Undue Weight in the BP Lead Section:

• The section is 1 of 26 sections in the BP article
• The section consists of 3 small paragraphs, the 3rd and largest one discusses BP's Solar programme which is no longer in operation
• Renewable energy is
• 5 sentences in the body of the article are dedicated to current renewable energy projects

Yet, in the 4 paragraph Lead, 1st paragraph last sentence: " also has major renewable energy activities, including in biofuels and wind power."

3rd paragraph of Lead: "BP has been involved in a number of major environmental and safety incidents and received criticism for its political influence. < How is this related to --> ? > In 1997 it became the first major oil company to publicly acknowledge the need to take steps against climate change, and in that year established a company-wide target to reduce its emissions of greenhouse gases. BP currently invests over US$1 billion per year in the development of renewable energy sources, and has committed to spend US$8 billion on renewables in the 2005 to 2015 period." < ie, 4% >

The 3rd para has a single sentence "BP has been involved in a number of major environmental and safety incidents and received criticism for its political influence" without any refs (violating Wiki rules as I stated above) This sentence is roughly 1/13th of the intro yet the subject matter is roughly 1/3rd of the article. These are very rough estimates, mind you. But take a look at the page, it's blatantly obvious we have a problem here.

The intro is in clear violation of Misplaced Pages guidelines for . This is what we're here to remedy. Discuss.petrarchan47c 22:29, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Libelous and repeated mischaracterization of reason for leaving the State Department and incident with video store owner

Soapboxing in the title, naming editors that do not exist, not notifying involved editors, legal threats in the title and overview, complainant cannot seem to find the edits he says he is talking about. Suggest re-filing with these deficiencies fixed. Guy Macon (talk) 21:28, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Antisemitism and The Zeitgeist Movement

• The Zeitgeist Movement (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

Requesting discussion of two specific disputes:

1. The Lead section should contain the phrase "A global system in which all resources become the equal and common heritage of all the inhabitants of the planet.", because this is the most important core idea and key fundamental principle of TZM, and the basis from which all other TZM ideas/ positions are developed. This central idea is verified by the following quotes from reliable sources:

• The Huffington Post: "... the world's resources would be considered as the equal inheritance of all the world's peoples ..."
• The Venus Project: "... a holistic socio-economic system in which ... all resources become the common heritage of all of the inhabitants, not just a select few ..."
• The Palm Beach Post: "... In this world, we all are equal because the planet's resources belong to everyone, not a select few ..."

Requesting discussion of only one specific dispute:

2. The 'Criticism' section contains factual statements that should be removed entirely, or, at best, moved to the 'Criticism' sections of the three Zeitgeist movies, including statements and views that come from reliable sources but that represent (or that point to) extremely small minority viewpoints. Substantial minority views should be represented in the article; but these are not substantial nor prominent minority views. (Antisemitism is not mentioned at all in any of our other reliable sources , and conspiracy theories are discussed briefly, and dismissed, in these reliable sources.) Thus they should be removed entirely, or moved to, and debated in, the articles on the three movies.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk · contribs)
• Earl King Jr. (talk · contribs)
• Bbb23 (talk · contribs)

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=The Zeitgeist Movement}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

We have discussed on the talk page, without progress.

• How do you think we can help?

Please discuss the two one dispute.

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:07, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Anti-semitism and the Zeitgeist Movement discussion

I have no history with the article. My involvement came about because of this discussion at ANI. Post-ANI, I attempted to set the editors on a course I felt would be most amenable to improving the article in a neutral, consensus-driven fashion. That discussion is on the article Talk page in this section I created. Apparently, Ijon is unhappy with at least some of my suggestions and felt it would be better to come here. At this point, I have nothing else to add.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm very happy with all your suggestions and grateful that you got involved as your contributions were helpful, neutral in tone, and fair. I'm requesting discussion of one specific dispute relating to the Lead section, and one specific dispute relating to the Criticism section.

And there has not been, nor is there now, consensus on the article talk page. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:43, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Template:CueIf filer does indeed request general improvement, he should use an rfc, as a DRN is a forum for specifics.Curb Chain (talk) 22:05, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Bbb23 did a good job of sorting through the talk page, seeing where the consensus was and restoring a neutral tone to the article. Earl King Jr. (talk) 22:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I revised the DRN; I'm now requesting discussion of only one specific dispute relating to Lead section, and one specific dispute relating to Criticism section.

And again, I'd like to reiterate that several editors have expressly requested that their names not be used to imply that there is any sort of consensus on the article. The only consensus existing right now is that there is no consensus. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 01:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the proposed summary of the hypothetical and impossible resource-based economy is as good as any, and it is supported by several sources. IjonTichyIjonTichy also wants to remove criticism because he doesn't like it. That's of course not a good reason, the criticism should stay, it is also from a reliable source. --OpenFuture (talk) 04:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The proposed addition to the lead is the key core principle of TZM; without it, the Lead (and the article as a whole) do not do a good job. And suggesting that I'm not acting in good faith does not contribute to this discussion.

"Impossible" (your word) is close to the criticisms of utopianism and practical difficulties in a transition to the TZM-proposed global system. These accusations were discussed in the NYT, Huff Po, Palm Beach Po, Globes, TheMarker, TheMarker TV, and 5 RT TV interviews. The dispute regarding the criticism does not involve the reliability of the source. It involves the weight that should be given to allegations that only represent extremely small and insignificant minority views -- not substantial or prominent minority views. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 04:32, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure you are acting in good faith. You just tend to conflate "I don't like it" with "Not according to Misplaced Pages policies", even though these are separate things. It is not an "insignificant or minority view", it's not even a view. The source reports that the organisation has been banned from studiVZ for what studiVZ percieves as antisemitism. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:01, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

"The original documentary that launched the Zeitgeist movement has been criticized by journalist Michelle Goldberg as being anti-Jewish. Zeitgeist concepts in that 2007 documentary have been criticized as steeped in far-right, isolationist, and covertly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories."

Goldberg and Tablet are reliable. But their reliability is only a necessary, not a sufficient, condition for inclusion. The issue is weight. WP policies clearly state that views (or statements of fact that point to the views, etc.) that are (or represent) a significant, substantial and a prominent minority should be considered for inclusion in the article. But extremely small, marginally small, negligible, insignificant minority views (or statements of fact, etc.) should not be included. Accusations of anti-semitism do not have sufficient weight for inclusion: they were not mentioned or discussed in our reliable sources. The NYT, Huff Po, Palm Beach Po, Globes, and TheMarker regularly and extensively report on overt and covert anti-semitism around the globe, helping expose the ugly disease of anti-semitism, rooting it out and attacking it. If anti-semitism was of substantial minority significance to TZM, these reliable sources would have discussed it in detail. But they did not even mention it. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 07:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You are contradicting yourself. First you admit that the sources that does either accuse or report accusations of anti-semitism are reliable, then you claim that these accusations are not mentioned in the reliable sources.

The fact is of course that they *are* mentioned in reliable sources. Your statement that the reliable sources who are uncritical to TZM must have mentioned this for it to not be a fringe view are baseless. Such a standpoint would make it practically impossible to add any form of criticism of anything to Misplaced Pages, as you can always find a reliable source that doesn't mention a particular form or criticism.

I think your efforts of washing away this criticism is a dead horse. We need to discuss how that section should be formulated instead of trying to remove it, because this criticism has reliable sources and is clearly not a fringe view, but one that is shared by several critics of TZM. --OpenFuture (talk) 08:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Your statement that the reliable sources who are uncritical to TZM must have mentioned this for it to not be a fringe view are baseless. Such a standpoint would make it practically impossible to add any form of criticism of anything to Misplaced Pages, as you can always find a reliable source that doesn't mention a particular form or criticism. end quote OpenFuture. This seems very basic and apparent, and the other editors that have returned that information to the article are in consensus on that. How is it that citations are supposed to agree with one another? Critical thinking comes from disparate views. Earl King Jr. (talk) 10:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry about causing confusion, my mistake. I will try to be more clear next time. But there is no contradiction. I admitted the accusations are based on reliable sources. When I said these accusations are not mentioned in the reliable sources, I meant they are not mentioned in NYT, Huff Po, Palm Beach Po, Globes, TheMarker, TheMarker TV, and 5 RT TV interviews. These sources are critical to TZM; they discuss allegations of utopianism and difficulties in transition to the proposed system (very close to what you characterized as an impossible system), reduced work incentives, and even the 9/11 conspiracy theories. But they do not even mention anti-semitism. Thus, (a) The 9/11 allegations by Jesse Walker are redundant, and (b) the anti-semitism piece in Tablet, although reliable, is not prominent or significant minority, but a negligibly small, fringe, insignificant minority, and thus should be removed.

The accusation I'm washing away substantial criticism, or substantial minority-view criticism, is baseless. All the material in the 'Criticism' section, except the Tablet and StudioViz accusations of anti-semitism, and the Jesse Walker 9/11 conspiracy, were contributed by me.

And again I reiterate: there is no consensus. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 14:31, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

When everyone except one editor agrees, that's a consensus. At this point you are the only one who wants to remove the criticism about anti-semitism. Please understand that the addition of this does not make Misplaced Pages claim that TZM is anti-semitic. It's only reporting on the accusation; from several reliable sources; that TZM is anti-semite. Trying to remove criticism that is voiced by several reliable sources is against Misplaced Pages policies (except possibly on BLP's). --OpenFuture (talk) 21:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Tablet is a reliable source. If the accusation of anti-semitism is only against the movie, it needs to be removed and placed in the article on that movie. However, Tablet not only accuses the movie; Tablet directly, repeatedly accuses TZM of being an anti-semitic cult. Michelle Goldberg's opinion isn't weighty in relation to internet phenomena, social protest movements, or economics — she's a journalist at best; she lacks any of the field significance that would lend her opinion weight. Thus, the Tablet hate- and fear-mongering piece is not weight-worthy in relation to TZM. That is a weighting issue, not a reliability issue.

14:53, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't necessarily have a problem with Ijon's suggestions for the lead, but the problem with the article is more fundamental than whether the lead needs to be modified. The article does a piss-poor job of explaining what the movement is. For example, Ijon cites to a quote from The Huffington Post. That same HP article is currently cited in the lead for the material that is currently there. The HP has much better material that explains the history (at least up to 2010) of the movement, who started it, etc. Yet, none of that is in the body of the article. I learned more about the movement from the HP article than I did reading the WP article. In addition, the WP article states there was a split in 2011. We haven't discussed pre-split material and suddenly at the beginning of the body we are in a split? Rather than fighting about whether the lead needs to be tweaked or the criticism is undue, let's focus on getting the basics in the body of the article about the movement itself. After that, we can address the lead, which is supposed to be a summary of the body anyway, and ensure that criticism of the movement is balanced and properly weighted.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

my previous 'Mission' section (which was completely deleted) was based mostly on extensive verifiable citations from the HP piece, as well as citations from our other sources. I invite editors to (very substantially and deeply) revise this section (for neutrality, substance, whatever you feel needs revision) for inclusion in the article. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't involved in the article when it was deleted, but in glancing at it, I can see why it was. It's incredibly long and reads like a promotional piece for the movement. It's full of "in the movement's view" and similar phrases, although sometimes it lapses into the colloquial "we" as if it were written by someone affiliated with the movement. The article needs a section that sets forth the history and views of the movement in a concise, well-sourced fashion (shouldn't be called "mission"), not a polemic that attempts to disguise its promotionalism with disingenuous "in the view of the movement" qualifiers. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but, frankly, I cringed as I read it.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:42, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

All the references to "we" are meant to imply we, the global society, or us, humanity. Not "we" as in we, TZM members.

In numerous comments on the talk page I indicated it was something like a rough draft. The only good thing about it was that it was based on verifiable citations from the reliable sources. That's why I invited editors to edit it and I suggested that editors be brutal with it and edit it mercilessly. I fully anticipated that the final version would be very different than this rough draft. It was a (clumsy, perhaps) attempt by a newbie editor (me) to move the editing process forward, after the process has not progressed for years (I'm not exaggerating, take a look at the history page of the article). At least this (ugly) edit helped attract a bunch of new and talented editors to the article, who are now, under your guidance and suggestions, helping bring our article closer to an encyclopedic entry. Regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 17:05, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

How about this 'Mission' section? (Of course, the new section title would not be 'Mission'.) Automation seems to be highly important to the movement. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 18:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Ijon, who is nothing if not responsive and energetic (), has made this same suggestion on the article Talk page, and I responded there.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

"The article does a piss-poor job of explaining what the movement is." - So does the movement itself, which is a big problem for Misplaced Pages with these kinds of fringe "movements". --OpenFuture (talk) 21:00, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

It is what it is, and we have to deal with it.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The Zeitgeist Movement (Zeitgeist is 'the spirit of the times' in German) is a global, end sand box Ijon version beginning. The opening line is wrong. The view of promotion is apparent. The movements view fails as a way to explain the information, but is made to sound like Misplaced Pages represents the official view without critical thought. Stop returning the same information over and over against consensus. Open Future accused you of vandalizing the article a while ago probably because of returning anti consensus material. I agree with him now. Earl King Jr. (talk) 23:12, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Earl, this is NOT the venue to resurrect accusations of editor misconduct and particularly accusations of vandalism. Your comment is not helpful.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Earl is referring to an old version in my sandbox. (a) My sandbox has nothing to do with the article; (b) The 'Lead' section in my sandbox is irrelevant, because I clearly referred only to my 'Mission' section.

The accusations of vandalism are baseless and without merit, and not constructive to this discussion.

In response to Bbb's suggestion, I posted a proposed rough draft on the article's talk page. I recommend editors not waste their time (or mine) on attacking me for the draft - instead redirect your energies to vastly improving the draft.

Tablet is a reliable source. If the accusation of anti-semitism is only against the movie, it needs to be removed and placed in the article on that movie. However, Tablet not only accuses the movie; Tablet directly, repeatedly and obsessively accuses TZM of being an anti-semitic cult. One issue is that Michelle Goldberg's opinion isn't weighty in relation to antisemitism — she's a journalist at best; she lacks any of the field significance that would lend her opinion weight. Another key issue is that accusing TZM of anti-semitism is not a significant, prominent minority view; it is only an insignificant, negligibly-small minority view. WP policies allow for inclusion of prominent minority views, without giving them undue weight; but the policies are against negligibly small views, because they are not worthy of an encyclopedic article.

Thus, the Tablet hate- and fear-mongering piece is not weight-worthy in relation to TZM. That is a weighting issue, not a reliability issue.

The dispute on anti-semitism is only beginning, and is nowhere near ending. Thus I restored the "undue weight - discuss" tags, because they must remain until the dispute is fully resolved (by this DRN, or by further dispute resolution processes, up to arbitration if necessary).

IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 14:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Ijon, unfortunately, your proposed draft is a non-starter, as I commented on the Talk page. You have to stick to secondary sources. The weight tags are not supported by anyone but you, so I've removed them. There is no "arbitration" for content issues.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not the only editor who opposes the anti-semitism accusations. Two other editors (Reinventor098 and 82.153.143.237) have been trying to delete the entire anti-semitism paragraph over the last few says, as you can see from the article's history. I do not agree with their tactics - I would rather they join the conversation on this talk page instead of deleting. But the fact they are deleting implies I am not the only editor. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 15:05, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

If I may chip in, I do think weight is an issue here. The Tablet article is an opinion piece, not a reporting of facts. The issue of the reliability of the journal as a provider of information is separate from that of the value of this journalist's expressed opinions. Paul B (talk) 15:21, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Nice to hear another voice. Actually, one of the things Ijon objects to is Goldberg's criticism is not directly of the movement but of the movie (although many believe the movies and the movement - there's a mouthful - are intertwined). He believes the criticism therefore belongs in the movie article, not the movement article. At the same time, assuming for the moment that the criticism does belong in the movement article, it's no different from any other criticism of a movie, which is, as always, subjective. It's also part of a pargraph on antisemitism because of the other material in the paragraph. Now, normally, I would argue that including criticism of the movie in the movement article has a WP:COATRACK aspect to it, but then we get back to the supposed intertwining of the movies and of the movement (the movies are supposed documentaries made by the movement's founder). I hope that completely muddies the waters. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 15:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Criticism of a movie as a work of art is quite separate from criticim of arguments that happen to be presented in movie form. The first is "subjective", yes, but the second requires expertise if we are to use it. It's not a "review" of the movie ("I give it three stars"), it's a review of claims made in it, or rather of claims alleged to be implicit in it. I have to confess a dislike of this kind of claim about "implicit" antisemitism, which based on a fundamentally false logic (Jews have been said to be behind X by antisemites, therefore any criticism of X is really "hidden antisemitism"). Yes, antisemites claim that Jews are behing global banking, does that mean anyone who criticises global banking is really secretly criticising Jews even if they never mention them? The issue is whether this comment is significant enough to include. I don't think one article cuts it, but obviously a case can be made if there is more material on these lines. Paul B (talk) 17:14, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Paul, I understand your point and would normally agree with it. However, I think your argument is blurred somewhat when the review is of a documentary. I didn't see the movie and can't comment on whether Goldberg's criticism was as simplistic as you appear to make it out to be.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:36, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree, it is refreshing to hear a new voice.

"The original documentary that launched the Zeitgeist movement has been criticized by journalist Michelle Goldberg as being anti-Jewish. Zeitgeist concepts in that 2007 documentary have been criticized as steeped in far-right, isolationist, and covertly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories."

Both of these sentences are directly sourced to Goldberg's piece in Tablet. The second sentence is a direct quote from the Tablet piece.

Bbb23 modified the second sentence, so now the paragraph reads: Zeitgeist: The Movie, has also been criticized by journalist Michelle Goldberg as being anti-Jewish. Goldberg describes the movie as "steeped in far-right, isolationist, and covertly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories."

Does anyone seriously believe the original second sentence (accusing TZM concepts, not the movie) is not going to rear its ugly head again (and sooner rather than later) in the TZM article?

Tablet is reliable. But Goldberg uses economic arguments (TZM's criticism of the giant, multinational, trans-national banks) to conclude TZM is an anti-semitic cult. But she is not an authority on the banking industry, economics, cults, internet phenomena, or antisemitism. And her accusations of cult or antisemitism were not corroborated by any of our other reliable sources: NYT, Huff Po, Palm Beach Po, TheMarker, Globes. The NYT, HP, PBP, TM and GS have and extensive track record reporting on (a) antisemitism and (b) criticism against global banks for malfeasance, causing the financial crisis, etc. Yet the NYT, HP, PBP, TM and GS, while reporting on the Zeitgeist movement, and while criticizing TZM (for utopianism, 9/11 conspiracy theories, etc.) have not even mentioned antisemitism.

The issue is weight-worthiness, not reliability-worthiness. IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 16:01, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Sondra Locke

• Sondra Locke (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

I added a sentence to the article in an attempt to end an endless discussion on the talk page. It was reverted within minutes and I did not replace it. The edit summary by the reverter didn't make sense to me so I thought I would try this venue next to avoid any edit wars.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Erikeltic (talk · contribs)
• Canoe1967 (talk · contribs)
• Qwyrxian (talk · contribs)
• Nobody Ent (talk · contribs)
• Flyer22 (talk · contribs)

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Sondra Locke}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

• How do you think we can help?

I would just like opinions on whether my edit should stay according to policies.

Canoe1967 (talk) 15:26, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Sondra Locke discussion

I am a clerk/mediator here at the Misplaced Pages Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I see that this issue has been discussed at length at Talk:Sondra Locke. Alas, you did not include several participants in that conversation (Qwyrxian, Ent, Flyer22 -- there may be more). Please add their names under "Who is involved in the dispute?" and notify them using the DRN-notice template. Once everyone involved is notified, we can start attempting to resolve the dispute. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 18:24, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

I added them to the list and notified them.--Canoe1967 (talk) 18:45, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

This will be my only comment on the matter as the issue has been beaten to death repeatedly and has involved no less than 10 sock puppets all "supporting" the same position as Canoe's. First, some back story; the article has conflicting reliable sources that give two different birth years. Either one or both of these years is wrong. It's not our job to decide which date is better when the two sources are reliable (especially when it's a BLP). We do not do original research as Canoe has tried to do. Finally, as editors we do not editorialize BLPs. Canoe did just that here after having tried the first two "don'ts" beforehand. The bottom line is that I reverted his addition, because an editor's personal commentary is inappropriate -- especially in a BLP. Furthermore, bringing that revert up as dispute resolution, prior to any discussion of the added editorial/ content/ commentary is, IMHO, inappropriate as well. Thanks. Erikeltic 19:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

There has been no discussion regarding this edit on article talk page. Nobody Ent 19:47, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The edit in question states, "Various reliable sources state two different years for her birth and no claim has been made that Locke herself caused the discrepancy." In addition to the article's talk page, the central issue has been discussed at Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard. Ignoring the numerous socks of a banned editor, we have (to the best of my knowledge) Canoe1967 and two other editors supporting the use of primary sources to pick one of the sourced dates. The solid consensus, AFAICT, is to include both dates. Having established this, Canoe1967 now want to add a "warning" about the dates. Canoe1967 added it and it was removed. Here's discussion on the matter: "Various reliable sources" is original research; we have decided they are "reliable" sources based upon our usage of the word "reliable". That "no claim has been made by Locke herself caused the discrepancy" is also original research; for all we know there is an article on the front page, above the fold, in a major newspaper with full color photos and a banner headline that we missed. No one on Misplaced Pages (to my knowledge) claims she caused the discrepancy. Further, the statement creates a dispute to counter. Where did the idea that Locke caused the discrepancy come from? Canoe1967's mind, it would seem. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:43, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

• Look this isn't brain surgery chaps. There are a bunch of secondary sources giving a 1944 dob and another bunch giving a 1947 dob. There is also a marriage licence recording her name, her 1944 dob and the name of her husband. The objection to the marriage licence as a source is that secondary sources are preferred over primary sources. However, all the information can be attributed to secondary sources, none of it needs to be attributed to the primary source! The primary source merely establishes which set of secondary sources are correct in this instance (since the secondary sources that give the correct date and the name of her husband can be matched up to the marriage licence—after all, how likely is it that there is more than one Sondra Locke were born on the same date married to a guy with the same name?). The allegations of synthesis are not relevant because synthesis is when you take two sources, and take content from them to create a claim that is not backed up entirely by one of the sources; this isn't the case here because all the claims are backed up entirely by the secondary sources. The marriage licence isn't being used as a source for the claims, it serves in a corroborative capacity for the secondary sources that have been chosen. It seems to me a sub-set of editors are gaming the policies and guidelines to include inaccurate information, which are really designed to prevent editors interjecting their own theories into articles—they are not there to compel us to include clearly inaccurate information. There is an equivalent case being cited (Audrey Tautou), but in that case there is no compelling reason to opt for either date. In this instance, it is pretty obvious the 1944 date is the correct one. Betty Logan (talk) 22:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

• How do you think we can help?

I would just like opinions on whether my edit should stay according to policies.--Canoe1967 (talk) 20:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Except, Canoe, the whole reason we reject primary sources is that they have no editorial oversight, and are harder to verify the accuracy of. In the case of the marriage license, I don't trust that 1) the license is a real, accurate copy of her accurate license and 2) if it is, that the information is accurate. When you get a license, they don't, in many states, require you to prove your DoB. This is the whole point behind how Misplaced Pages works--we rely on other experts (those who do research and who have editors that oversee to make sure they've done their research). We don't rely on our own ability to analyze primary documents. The article must retain both dates of birth, per WP:V and WP:OR. This is not gaming policies--this is the fundamental basis upon which WP works. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:04, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• Looking closer at the sources you will find that the MSN one states 1944 and sources the Hal Erickson Rovi source that states 1947. The ABC source is broken now, but it was just a feed from The Associated Press. I may see if my library has a copy of the book and see how it is sourced. I emailed Rovi and the book publisher to have them check their sources. My email was kicked back from Associated Press because I wasn't on their inbound mail list. I may look for another email for them or have my local paper inquire.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

It is just this one article.

• Joe Paterno (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

The first paragraph regarding the Sandusky scandal ends with this sentence, "Despite the gravity of allegations against Sandusky, none of the men involved, including McQueary, Paterno, Curley or Schultz, notified state police." I have two disputes with the statement. First, neither reference substaniates this statement as it is written. Second this statement includes a number of individuals who could feel injured by the statement and is potenially libelous. My reasons for these concerns are on the talk page under the section "Misrepresentation of References".

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Joelwhy (talk · contribs)
• DWright (talk · contribs)

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=It is just this one article.}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I discussed my concern in an existing section and the author ignored me. I set up a section to discuss his references not substantiating his statements. The author then responded to me but did not consider my concerns. I politely and in a detailed manner explained why I think this statement violates Wikkileak's policy against original research and that the statement is potentially libelous. The author insists he referenced this statement where it is clear the author has not. The author ignored my concern that it is potentially libelous.

• How do you think we can help?

Review the article and discussion. If you find the author has not referenced this statement properly and share my concern it is potentially libelous, then ask the author to remove the offensive statement and provide instruct on possible alternative ways to rewrite the sentence to complete the paragraph. If you have found the sentence improperly referenced but do not share my concern it is potentially libelous, then instruct the author to properly reference the statement.

71.48.141.230 (talk) 19:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

It is just this one article. discussion

I am a volunteer clerk/mediator here at the dispute resolution noticeboard. I have no prior opinion about this and did not know who Sandusky or Paterno was until today (my favorite spectator sport is chess...).

In my opinion, "Despite the gravity of allegations against Sandusky, none of the men involved, including McQueary, Paterno, Curley or Schultz, notified state police" is far too editorial and not nearly encyclopaedic enough. There might be a place (Check WP:WEIGHTto be sure) for a mention along the line of "person X criticized them for not..." but it should not be in Misplaced Pages's voice. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:05, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

The phrase "despite the gravity of the allegations" is probably unecessary editorialising, but there is no misrepresentation of sources regarding his failure to contact plice. That's in the source. The IP says that the source does not specifically say "state police", just "police". Well that would ceratinly include the state police, so I see no problem, but just remove "state" if it's so important. Paul B (talk) 13:04, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Looking at those sources I see:

CBS Sports:

McQueary: Not mentioned in this source, listed first in the paragraph we are looking at.

Paterno: Fulfilled his legal requirement to report suspected abuse. wasn't charged, grand jury didn't implicate him in wrongdoing. State police Commissioner editorialized that he had a moral requirement to do more.

Curley: Charged with failing to alert police, lying to a grand jury.

Schultz: Charged with failing to alert police, lying to a grand jury.

Spanier: Possible target of investigation, not mentioned in the paragraph we are looking at.

NBC Sports:

McQueary: Not mentioned in this source, listed first in the paragraph we are looking at.

Paterno: Lauded in the grand jury’s indictment, praised for learning of the 2002 incident and immediately reporting it to Curley. No other mention in this source.

Curley: Charged with failure to report suspected sexual abuse of a minor, perjury.

Schultz: Charged with failure to report suspected sexual abuse of a minor, perjury.

Spanier: Grand jury determined that the he signed off on the course of action taken by Curley and Schultz. Not mentioned in the paragraph we are looking at.

These are some rather serious failures to follow the sources, and it is troubling to see a statement here at DRN that "there is no misrepresentation of sources regarding his failure to contact police. That's in the source" when one of those four names is not mentioned in either source and a name that is mentioned prominently in the source as "signing off" on not telling the police is not mentioned. Also troubling is the use of the word "he" instead of "they". I gather from what I have read in the one day since I heard of any of these people that Paterno is somewhat famous. That doesn't mean that we can ignore the other names in the paragraph we are looking at as if unsourced allegations are OK if the target isn't famous. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:32, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Mercury Tower topping Shard

Please read the information prominently listed at the top of the page before listing a dispute here. Sleddog116 (talk) 03:01, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

X-ray computed tomography

• X-ray computed tomography (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

The issue is about adverse effects of CT scans, and typical radiation doses of CT scans. I have contributed to that section, and an other user:Jmh649 deleted my contributions, without discussion, without asking for refs, and without giving time to provide refs, and without stating phrases that are not according to rules, and without allowing time to correct them.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute?

• Jmh649 (talk · contribs)
• 79.179.224.214 (talk · contribs)

The user Jmh649 do not understand radiation dose units, and yet he deleted a lot of subject matter related to it, and instead has wrote an error, namely mGy=mSv for xrays, which he quoted from a web page, which is not even a primary research. This after deleting my contributions, that were accurate, because he claimed they were from primary sources. In addition, after I was referred to the rules, I did not find anything in the rules preventing the use of primary sources, and found that the rules were just about the way that primary sources should be used. Instead of helping me achieve the semantic requirements, the user opted to delete everything I have contributed.

• Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".)

Yes.

• To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=X-ray computed tomography}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I have asked the user Jmh649 to resolve the issue at the talk page, and after that he has wrote his issues with my contributions. I have replied with an answer, and he went on and deleted my contributions again, without answering to my reply.

• How do you think we can help?

I don't know, I am new to wikipedia.

My last version is at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=X-ray_computed_tomography&oldid=496795977#Adverse_effects . You will be able to see that the adverse effects section, and typical dose section in the the current version is under-representing compared to my last version, and is also structured wrong stating "contrast" as an adverse effect title, instead of stating the adverse effects related to contrast - immediate death, pseudo allergic response, kidney damage, etc. You will also see in the 'Typical scan dose' section, that Jmh649 deleted the most relevant doses, which were quoted from a research, and instead wrote an error in the title of the table column mGy=mSv. This error reflect over the lack of understanding of the subject matter of Jmh649. I don't understand how someone that doesn't understand the subject matter, allow himself to delete other people contributions, and without even reading the referenced articles. I think that the referenced articles were not read by Jmh649, since their content directly contradict the 'mSv=mGy' error that Jmh649 wrote. Jmh649 also does not understand that CT cause patients' bodies to absorb ionizing radiation, and for that reason deleted adverse effects of ionizing radiation from the section, since the references did not include the word CT, btw at least one of them did mention CT:

"Irradiation of the brain with dose levels overlapping those imparted by computed tomography can, in at least some instances, adversely affect intellectual development. Although formal diagnostic protocols do not advocate computed tomography in cases of minor head injuries, clinical practice dictated by legal and financial considerations does not always adhere to these protocols. The risk and benefits of computed tomography scans in minor head trauma need re-evaluating."

I think that the article should be reverted to my version, since in one day 200,000 people undergo CT examinations in the US alone, and denying them from knowledge of adverse effects such as quoted above is evil. After that, I think that if the text don't conform to wikipedia's standard, then a point to point discussion over its content should be conducted at the talk page until all the research referenced in my version regarding adverse effects would be appropriately expressed in the wikipedia article.

79.179.224.214 (talk) 04:07, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

X-ray computed tomography discussion

I am a volunteer clerk/mediator here at the Misplaced Pages Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I have no particular connection with this subject, but I am an engineer with experience with other kinds of medical diagnostic equipment and I have been CT scanned. I have some preliminary thoughts before I jump into the meat of the dispute

79.179.224.214, it looks to me like this is the situation we are in. You clearly want to do the right thing and improve the article (I see no signs of self-promotion or vandalism). It also looks like you are new to Misplaced Pages and somewhat unfamiliar with our standards, and have made a few mistakes. (No problem, we all have done the same.)

I think we can work together and craft something that meets your concerns and which conforms to Misplaced Pages's standards. This, of course, depends on whether you are willing to work with us and learn not only our policies, but the reasoning behind them. If you are willing to do that, your reward will be gaining the ability to help an audience that is literally millions of times larger than the audience you could reach with a website, blog, or even a peer-reviewed paper in a scientific journal. Misplaced Pages would benefit as well; we need more editors with experience in these areas.

Regarding the difficulties you are experiencing, one problem is that you are reading various policy pages that others are referring you to with an eye towards justifying the changes you want to make. This, naturally, biases your interpretation.

Another problem is that all of those policies were written and edited using the same techniques that were used to create the rest of Misplaced Pages, which means that the quality varies from "crystal clear" to "as clear as mud".

Finally, Misplaced Pages's policy pages are descriptive, not prescriptive. They are a convenient way to inform new editors what the longstanding consensus is on various issues, but they are a (possibly flawed) description of the consensus, not the consensus itself. Someone who has been around longer and has seen the policies applied in various situations naturally has a better feel for what the consensus is than a newbie who is just looking at the policies for the first time.

A procedural note: I see that under "Who is involved in the dispute?" you list only yourself and Jmh649, and you have correctly noted that Jmh649 has not discussed this on the talk page. However, several other editors have been discussing this with you, and you did not list them. You need to add all of those names above under "Who is involved in the dispute?" and notify them.

Later, we will look at the edit in question in detail. Please look at this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=X-ray_computed_tomography&diff=496795977&oldid=496791930 That is the edit we will be discussing. It may be helpful to click on the Delta button at the bottom to see another way of seeing the edit, and of course there are "Revision as of" links at the top that will show you the article before and after the edit. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 18:52, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

1. ^ "The Zeitgeist Movement: Envisioning A Sustainable Future". Huffington Post. Mar 16, 2010. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
2. ^ "Resource Based Economy". The Venus Project.
3. ^ A dream worth having, Rhonda Swan, The Palm Beach Post, April 30, 2009
4. ^ "They've Seen the Future and Dislike the Present". New York Times. 2009-03-16.
5. ^ Quotations and citations in this Misplaced Pages article are based on the translation from Hebrew to English of The Filmmaker Who Helped Recruit Millions for the Global Protests of the Bottom 99%, original Hebrew article by Asher Schechter, TheMarker (Israel), January 19, 2012.
6. ^ Quotations and citations in this Misplaced Pages article are based on the translation from Hebrew to English of Imagine, original Hebrew article by Tzaela Kotler, Globes (Israel), March 18, 2010.
7. ^ "He's A Dreamer From Venus", Mike Thomas, Orlando Sentinel, Feb. 12, 1995. Cite error: The named reference "OrlandoSentinel1995" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
8. ^ Cite error: The named reference TVP-R was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
9. Ratzinger, Joseph. "Letter on Vassula Ryden to the Episcopal Conferences of France, Switzerland, Uruguay, Philippines and Canada (10 July 2004)".
10. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/57732/brave-new-world Retrieval June-9-2012
11. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/57732/brave-new-world Retrieval June-9-2012
12. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/57732/brave-new-world Retrieved June 9, 2012

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