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POV check tag

I have added it to the article so a neutral editor can address the glaring bias 71.204.179.212 (talk) 20:50, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

What glaring bias? You must be specific. Otherwise, it's just your bias on display in a sweeping generalisation. Never helpful. HiLo48 (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I've removed it. You need to be specific. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 21:47, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Here's a specific! "Among more discussed forms are institutionalized 'homophobia' (e.g. religious and state-sponsored)". The footnote refers to the International Lesbian and Gay Association. There's no way that's a neutral or scientific source. PaulSank (talk) 06:10, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

But it is a reliable source. ILGA is an UN accredited organization. I see no need for an NPOV tag. --Scientiom (talk) 07:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Reliability is not what's in dispute at the moment. We're trying to make this article neutral. As far as I can tell from its website, the ILGA is at least in part an activist organization. Activist organizations do like to make definitions, but their definitions are designed to support what they're doing. Activists often use definitions to re-frame the debate. I wouldn't use Focus On The Family, either, even though I agree with them on many points, because, again, they're not a neutral source. Activists, regardless of which side they're on, should never be used as sources for definitions that are supposed to be neutral. PaulSank (talk) 03:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

You misunderstand the WP context of the word "neutral," neutral on WP does not mean that subjects are presented uncritically, or that wikipedia treats all sides of a subject equally. Neutral means that the reliable sources of any given subject are given the appropriate weight in an article based on their prominence as sources. We as editors have to be neutral, which means that our opinions are not put into the article. Sources only need to be reliable and mainstream. Because this source is a UN accredited organization, it meets our standards for reliability and thus is acceptable. If you disagree, you're welcome to get a second opinion on the reliable sources notice board. Nformation 05:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Unless someone else wants to take up the issue of neutrality re this article, I say it's time to remove the tag. PaulSank (talk) 06:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

If this is the defnition of neutral, why is it that a link to http://conservapedia.com/Homophobia was immediately removed? This site represents the views of a significant portion of the population and, whether people like it or not, the views expressed on that page are mainstream as well. 142.151.202.168 (talk) 03:00, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Because Conservapedia is the antithesis of what WP regards as a reliable source. AV3000 (talk) 03:26, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Treatable phobia?

I notice that this is labeled as a "phobia" as though it were treatable. The treatment might be of interest. Perhaps victims (phobics) are shown pictures of men copulating and if they react negatively, they are given a mild shock? Anyway, the treatment for this condition would be of interest. Student7 (talk) 20:04, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

There are many sexual therapists around, more information here would be great for those who suffer homophobia and would like to no longer be gay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.o 203.198 (talk) 01:57, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I in fact challenge that the usage of the word Homophobia is simply wrong. As has been mentioned before, a phobia is an irrational fear, a treatable mental illness, not a simple dislike or hatred (which is not). It is another example of the language being further corrupted by common use of incorrect terms. A telescope for instance is called a telescope for a good reason, it makes sense. If everyone started calling a window a telescope, maybe it "kind of makes sense" but would still be vastly incorrect, but if enough people do it, it makes it legitimate? I don't think so. 109.149.173.232 (talk) 04:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it does. Welcome to English, the most rapidly evolving, clumsiest and illogical language in common use. And that last term is the key here. Homophobia means what common usage says it means, not what historical language analysis says it should mean. HiLo48 (talk) 07:31, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Actually there is a battle to try to brand any disdain for, opposition to, or opposition to the societal normalization of homosexuality as a "phobia". The opposing side says that such is incorrect. This heavily POV'd article weighs in on just one side of it by pretending that the assertions of one side are fact and writing on that basis. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 09:44, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I would argue that regarding homosexuality as not part of normality these days IS homophobia by its common definition. And people who want to suppress homosexuality in society must be scared of something. HiLo48 (talk) 10:04, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

(As a sidebar, I didn't have "suppress" on that list.) But it's quite a reach to say that disdain for or opposition to something automatically means fear of it. North8000 (talk) 10:27, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

And that's not what I said either. HiLo48 (talk) 10:33, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Well either way, that is what the POV promoted by this article is saying. North8000 (talk) 10:38, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

No, it's not! Homophobia does NOT mean fear of homosexuals or homosexuality. That view is an incorrect, POV approach taken by people wanting to deny that the word applies to them. HiLo48 (talk) 10:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

You are stating one side of the controversy, just as the article does. Essentially saying that it is valid to apply a "phobia" term to any disdain for or opposition to homosexuality. North8000 (talk) 11:05, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

No, I'm just telling you that mechanical definitions of words don't work in our language where common usage is what counts. HiLo48 (talk) 11:08, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

There's one of these arguments on this page every time i see it...

Read the article North8000, phobias do not always mean "an irrational fear", that is the way English works, sometimes words don't mean what you expect.

Denying Homosexual people equal rights, equal treatment, or just stating that it is an illness that is treatable are all homophobia. It has nothing to do with being scared of gay people.

If you can swap the word gay for black in your argument and it seems offensive, then it's homophobic. Thanks Jenova20 11:12, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

"Phobia" certainly does mean phobia. That is why folks on one side of this controversy are working so hard to promote use of a "phobia" word to apply to all disdain for or opposition to homosexuality. And again, this article weighs in heavily on only one side of that controversy. North8000 (talk) 11:21, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

In saying that you're arguing against what the article says, what common usage says, and what most dictionaries I've looked at say. Dictionary.com says "unreasoning fear of OR antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality". (My capitalisation) You have a big job ahead of you. HiLo48 (talk) 11:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

North you're not going to achieve anything here, your argument won't change common meaning and usage of the words "Phobia" or "Homophobia", please read both articles to see why.

If you disagree with the meaning of the words then i don't know how you fight that but Misplaced Pages isn't the place. Thanks Jenova20 11:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Maybe someday this POV mess will get fixed, but not today

Well, the "big job" here is that there is a group of editors who LIKES that this article is badly POV'd, that it carries the torch for one side of the controversy, and that it states the view of one side of the controversy as fact, and in the voice of Misplaced Pages. And somehow, by some reverse logic, the fact that there have been an immense amount of complaints about this is given as a reason for the invalidity of the complaints. (with "same 'ole story" type comments). I'm not ready to spend the time to try to tackle that. So, signing off..... Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

If you're unhappy then take it to an admin or try and get a third opinion.

Trying to change the meaning of words on Misplaced Pages will not work though and so the only suggestion i can give you is to read the article and the one on Phobias and accept that you don't agree...or take it to admin and third opinion.

Thanks Jenova20 13:04, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with your "trying to change meaning" characterization of the situaiotn, but I respect your viewpoint and wish you and everyone else here well. North8000 (talk) 13:10, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

No problem Jenova20 13:12, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Tagging, hatting, and the like

I have removed the POV tag added by IP 67.6.120.234 because no new discussion accompanied it. The user did uncollapse three collapsed threads on this page, but none of them contained his or her own comments (as far as one can tell, when unregistered users are involved). I have re-collapsed one of the three threads because it contained grossly offensive generalized attacks on a group of people. The other two I left uncollapsed; while they fall into the perpetual (and perpetually false) argument category, they do seem to meet a reasonable minimum threshold for relevance and civility. Rivertorch (talk) 04:38, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Transphobia?

Here's one for you. Shouldn't Transexuals be removed from the lede since that's transphobia and not homophobia? and hence belongs in the right article? Thanks Jenova20 23:12, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

In a perfect academic sense, perhaps. However the reality is that all LGBTQs are lumped together with homophobic attitudes. Transphobia is a form of homophobia in that is arises from the similar fears of anyone that is not gender and sexuality conforming. There is crossover, certainly. And those who express thoughts likely don't differentiate who exactly they are referring to or what aspect of variance they are reacting to.Insomesia (talk) 01:39, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Fair point, just wanted another opinion. Thanks Jenova20 08:37, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

POV Bias

This article is INCREDIBLY BIASED! Misplaced Pages administration seems to knock down this comment, as seen in the two other concerns above. I would like a review of this article, because it is INCREDIBLY biased and pro so called "gay". Could someone please look over this article with a more neutral perspective and neutral sources? 108.16.201.42 (talk) 16:06, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Where to start...Bias to start off is your own opinion. If you have anything specific you want to point out or ask about then go right ahead. If you wish to challenge the meaning of the word then find some reliable sources and post them up here.

Also if you're just in a shouty shouty mood then you probably won't get anyone responding to you or taking you seriously. Thanks Jenova20 16:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually i'm probably a good person for you to ask since i got involved in the discussions above where it appeared that the user tried to challenge the meaning of the word "homophobia". and "pro "gay"" suggests that you might want to instead visit conservapedia where the Bible is the reference to most questions and the world revolves around America. Thanks Jenova20 16:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Rots o' ruck. Misplaced Pages is an officially pro-gay document. A better example of pro-gay bias is the Marriage article. Suppose you're an alien from the planet Zog that has just landed on Earth and you decide to use Misplaced Pages to try to learn about the human species. You would have no idea, from the WP article, that married people are usually or normally a wife and husband. It wasn't good enough for the pride activists to use the definitions found in Webster's, OED, or American Heritage in the lede (which mentions same-sex marriage in the second sentence or secondary definition, they had to obliterate all notion of hetero-sexual marriage, and they are doing that to further an agenda. It is not their interest to have Misplaced Pages articles reflect reality, but they want to change reality by use of the Misplaced Pages project. It's against policy, but hey, if those entrusted to enforce policy are themselves biased, what can you do? 71.169.177.19 (talk) 16:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

If you have any constructive suggestions for better sources or specific changes those would likely go further than general accusations of bias. If you have an issue with another article you need to address it at that article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Insomesia (talk • contribs) 17:52, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Exactly right. It seems you have an issue with most articles that mention gay people in some sense rather than just this one. If that's your current crusade to fight back and campaign using Misplaced Pages to do so then there is little i can do but tell you to raise a specific issue at the WP:Village pump or bother someone else. On the other hand if you have something constructive to bring up then i'll do what i can to help. Thanks Jenova20 18:10, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok than let's start with my deleted edit! The quote is entirely unnecessary and it sets a negative tone for the whole article. Fear of queers is also not irrational. Comparing homophobia to nazism is irrational. And I also not appreciate religious being called homophobes! --108.16.201.42 (talk) 09:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Well first off i have to point out that negative tone and neutrality are different things. If we take the holocaust (i think that's how you spell it) as an example it's very difficult to set something like that in anything but a negative tone, but we can make the article neutral and reliably sourced, the same thing would happen to positive toned articles.

Your first edit removed the word "irrational" from a dictionary description...a so so edit and was obviously reverted since it was important to the lede paragraph to show examples to the reader of what the article involves and what homophobia is.

The second edit was just a removal of a paragraph and again was rightly reverted. Large removal of content with no discussion on the talk page is generally considered: Unhelpful, Unexplained, Unwarranted, Vandalism, Censoring

If you want to reword the paragraph with me we can post it up here and get started on something we all agree with? What do you say? Thanks Jenova20 10:13, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

First. can we all agree the quote has absolutely no place and is in violation of Misplaced Pages:Lead section guidelines. Second, on irrational: Dr. Sander J. Breiner of NARTH has stated "There is no personal, internal, institutional, or cultural homophobia. The terms do not exist in the recognized scientific literature...There is only one homophobia, which has been properly defined," in the the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). Third, I object to the notion that religious organizations are homophobic, they are just defending their beliefs, just as Charles Worley.--108.16.201.42 (talk) 22:21, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

First off let me state that i will do everything within my means to stop anything from NARTH being used here in any way as reliable. They are the bottom end of reliability and their own methods are discredited and biased. You might aswell try and use sources from the KKK in a racism article to reword the lede paragraph. Jenova20 22:44, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

How is NARTH unreliable? It is far more reliable than most of the sources in this article. Second, do you agree with me that the quote is biased and serves no place? --108.16.201.42 (talk) 23:17, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

NARTH is Not Anti-gay, nor is NARTH a Hate-Based Organization. 108.16.201.42 (talk) 23:18, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

NARTH is one of the most hateful anti-LGBT groups around. They can be trusted with no research whatsoever and the only reliable statements for an encyclopedia is NARTH talking about itself, and even then I would want a more reliable source. For anyone interested please see - NARTH Becomes Main Source for Anti-Gay ‘Junk Science’. Insomesia (talk) 23:35, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Rather than arguing, can we work to improve the article's introduction according to the concerns I pointed out? It seems you are unwilling to talk and rather just bash me with heterophobia. 108.16.201.42 (talk) 00:10, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I only recall some generalized concerns and then the whole NARTH subject came up. I suggest you start a new thread with a specific change that reasonably could be welcomed in whole or part by the other people here. Maybe things just started poorly but you can "restart" with a new section and a fresh idea. You could also stay on this thread and maybe outdent and start a new thread that wayInsomesia (talk) 01:00, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I, for one, do not appreciate being called "-phobic" when my opposition to homosexual practices is very much courageous and counter-cultural. If there are people who are offended by this term (including myself, and a few others on this Talk page), then the word "derisive" or "pejorative" must therefore appear in the first paragraph in order to maintain a neutral POV. 204.65.0.24 (talk) 22:43, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

You made a point that goes to the core of the POV problem with this article. In the real world there is a battle going on between folks who want to label any opposition to homosexuality as having a "phobia" and those opposed to that tactic. This article presumes and presents the views of one side of that controversy as fact, and then builds the entire article to imply that that controversial assertions is fact. North8000 (talk) 23:34, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

As stated previously we need reliable sources to support views that seem to be counter to what we already have. Presenting the sources we need to support these opinions should be presented so others who doubt the veracity of those views can also see what reliable sources state. Then we can adjust the first paragraph.Insomesia (talk) 00:32, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Religious people can be called homophobic, racist or antisemitic for the exact same reason as the religious people will call gays a violation against God or Jews as false believers. The fact of the matter is that according to Christianity LGBT people are committing an abomination againist God. That means they have a right to say that LGB sexual activity and T dressing is bad. For this same reason though however LGBT can call these religions homophobic, biphobic and transphobic. You can't have it one way. Religious people who protest againist LGBT will always be homophobic and according to their religion LGBT status will be a sin. And yes many of the words the Christians and other religious fundamentalists you to describe the LGBT community are pejorative too. Get over it. You are homophobic and LGBT people are an abomination to your faith.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 00:50, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Please, let's not bother with applying labels, no matter how accurate we may think they are, to others here. Let's just agree that we need reliable sources to make substantial changes and until those sources are presented the article is unlikely to change. The generalized accusations about the article or those editing it are as unhelpful as pointing out whether or not those accusations are themselves homophobic. Focus on specifically improving the article with better sources.Insomesia (talk) 02:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with what you say, although I am finding the recurrent eruption of this topic with zero new evidence presented more than a little tiresome. Rainbowofpeace: what you've written, aside from being beyond the proper scope of the article's talk page, is an appalling oversimplification. Rivertorch (talk) 05:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Core point of bias: definition

I've made a few fragmented comments before but wanted to sum up one of the core points of the bias of this article. One definition of homophobia which is widely accepted is where there is a true "phobia" (using the common meaning of "phobia") a rather rare condition. There is a current battle in the real world over a second definition which activists and others are trying to promulgate which is to define all opposition to homosexuality and opposition to the societal normalization of homosexuality as "homophobia". It is clear that their objective is to denigrate any such opposition by labeling it as a "phobia". The latter definition is certainly a controversial engineered political term political term that is being promoted.

Instead of really covering the above, the article basically stifles it. The article gives short shrift to the widely accepted definition, and adopts the second contested definition not only as fact, but as being THE definition. In essence, the article presents the views of one side of the controversy not as views, but as fact in the voice of Misplaced Pages. The content of the article also implicitly does the same. It essentially presents any and all opposition to homosexuality or to the the societal normalization of homosexuality as being "homophobia". It will take some pretty substantial changes to fix this substantial POV problem with the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 10:44, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

North - Here in Australia, a somewhat different culture from yours, the words homophobic and homophobia are used to simply describe opposition to homosexuality. There is no particular emotional loading to the words. As with many words in the English language, the literal meaning is never really considered. I really don't think you have much of a case that this is a particularly political term. HiLo48 (talk) 11:03, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that info/perspective. But the core of my case is simply that that particular definition is controversial in many places. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:15, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Sidebar: the USA is one of them where that definition is controversial. And, on a world scale, I think that the USA is somewhere on the liberal side of the "middle of the road" regarding homosexuality issues. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 11:15, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

It stifles it because it's not real, it's an argument used generally by homophobes arguing they can't be homophobic because they aren't scared of gay people. That's not how the word works and it's not how phobias necessarilly work, as can be seen on the Phobia article.

That being said, i don't think a sentence or 2 explaining this or attempting to move people to the Phobia article would be a bad idea to cut these arguments down before they occur in future. Thanks Jenova20 11:25, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Assuming you intendedd to say that it would not be a bad idea; I concur. It's a bud nip thing. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 12:13, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I re-read my reply and believe it to currently say that i don't think it's a bad idea. It makes sense that if people have trouble understanding something we make it more obvious. Thanks Jenova20 13:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Jenova20, your post sidesteps the main point of my post, and what follows is based on the POV problem that my post is bringing to light. Namely, that the fully accepted definition is ignored, and one side's view of the second definition is presumed to be not only fact but also the sole definition. North8000 (talk) 17:11, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Are there any scholarly sources that clearly explain what you say are two definitions? That may help clarify this point for everyone. Even though this is an encyclopedia and not a dictionary I think we could offer clarity, and context.Insomesia (talk) 18:07, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll take a look for scholarly sources (this may take several days), but in the meantime we need to keep WP:NOR and WP:UNDUE in mind. North8000, you have offered no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim about widely accepted versus controversial definitions. Since your claim flies in the face of easily verifiable common usage (see any dictionary from the last 20–30 years or look at various reliable sources in a simple Google search), I can see no reason to spend time discussing it further. You're making an extraordinary claim; the onus is on you to back it up. Rivertorch (talk) 18:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Well a simple example is to look at the definitions in the dictionaries. The widely accepted definition is the one that is included in ALL of them. The questionable definition is the one that is included in only in SOME of them. The extraordinary claim is the one that is used as a premise for most of this article. The unsupported extraordinary claim is actually the one that this article as currently worded is based on, that a particular contested definiiton is the only definition. North8000 (talk) 21:03, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

My dictionary only has "an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people." Mirriam Webster states "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals." Can you point to a mainstream dictionary that has the two you're talking about? Maybe we could simply compare what a number state and see if there is much of a difference.Insomesia (talk) 21:53, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:TRUTH North that is the current level of your argument. Rivertorch is entirely correct. You cannot claim the sky is in fact yellow without reliable and verifiable proof, otherwise people will just nod along and assume you're crazy. Thanks Jenova20 22:12, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Whether intentional or unintentional, Insomesia has reinforced my point. They have just quoted 2 dictionaries which have the widely accepted definition which I speak about. A definition which the wording of this article essentially claims is non-existent. Using your metaphor, I am noting that the claim that the sky is yellow is controversial, the wording of this article is founded on an unsupported assertion that the sky is yellow. North8000 (talk) 23:49, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Did you read it wrong? Only one of the two dictionary entries Insomesia quoted mentioned fear. The other, which is that of the Oxford American and other Oxford dictionaries, mentions only aversion. Fwiw:

• Chambers Dictionary: "a strong antipathy to homosexuals"
• American Heritage Dictionary: "Aversion to gay or homosexual people or their lifestyle or culture. 2. Behavior or an act based on this aversion.
• Random House Unabridged Dictionary: "unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals  and homosexuality:"
• Collins English Dictionary: "intense hatred or fear of homosexuals or homosexuality."

So you have it backwards. We have thus far three entries that mention fear versus six that mention aversion, antipathy, discrimination or hatred. In any event, this article isn't about a phobia as in an extreme or irrational fear (akin to acrophobia or claustrophobia); it's about prejudiced attitudes (akin to xenophobia or Islamophobia), which is verifiably the primary usage of the term and has been for many years. Can you provide any sources to suggest otherwise? If not, we're simply wasting our time here. Rivertorch (talk) 00:13, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

If Homophobia isn't a suitable name for this article, what is? HiLo48 (talk) 23:40, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that Homophobia is the correct title for this article. I am basically asserting that the term should be covered in a more objective and wp:npov manner. North8000 (talk) 23:52, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

No, you're asserting that it should be covered with a POV that more closely matches yours. You're not stupid. You must realise that your opinion is not centre of the road on the issue of homosexuality, no matter how much you would like the centre of the road to agree with you. HiLo48 (talk) 00:03, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

That's not correct. My own opinion is that I'm in favor of the societal acceptance and normalization of homosexuality, although I'm opposed to many of the tactics of the activists working toward such. So my argument is not driven by my POV on the topic, it is driven by general and Misplaced Pages objectivity principles. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:10, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm. Then I'm even more confused about your goal here. You're "happy" with the title of article, but you don't like the article's definition of the topic? I truly don't get it? HiLo48 (talk) 00:16, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think this is going anywhere and until some solid proof is put up that counters what we already have in the article then it's time wasting and we're basically pandering to the minority opinion with no verifiability or intention of offering any, as we saw the last time this discussion came up. Thanks Jenova20 08:32, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Jenova20, that is flawed on several levels. If you have done that to stifle other people who have pointed out the POV problem here, I can see how the article ended up with such a severe POV problem. North8000 (talk) 10:04, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

HiLo48, a small step would be to add a section which covers the controversy over the second definition, namely controversy over defining all opposition to homosexuality or the societal normalization of it is "homophobia". North8000 (talk) 10:09, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

What controversy? You haven't provided any evidence that there is one. Rivertorch (talk) 10:32, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

North, as with the last discussion here where you tried to challenge the meaning of the word. Read Misplaced Pages:Activist and either get proof and provide it here (reliable proof) or accept that your view is in fact at worst biased POV and at best it's unsourced speculation.

Thanks Jenova20 14:22, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Quit that crap bogus ad hominem personal attack tactic of the linking to wp:activist! And the person with the unsupported extraordinary claim here is you and parts of this article, not me. North8000 (talk) 21:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

With some misgivings, I'll say that if it can be shown that there is in fact a real controversy regarding the definition or usage, it should be mentioned in the article. It would have to be clearly noteworthy, with significant discussion by secondary sources (preferably in peer-reviewed publications, although in-depth coverage in multiple other sources meeting WP:RS should do the trick), and care would have to be taken to ensure WP:UNDUE is followed. In the absence of such evidence to the contrary, I'm not aware that any notable controversy exists. That it exists in the minds of various individuals (e.g., certain activists opposing equal rights for gay people, some people with a flawed understanding of etymology, and so on) is, I suppose, no surprise. Rivertorch (talk) 19:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Rivertorch's view. North8000 the burden is to show cause that there is noted controversy and then to help effect any changes that should be made. This article is far from perfect but that doesn't mean it can have more unsupported views. At some point I'm going to look into heterophobia to see how it should be represented here. I think what we have is abysmal as yet, but I haven't looked into the available sources to address it.Insomesia (talk) 22:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

North8000, you raised the topic. Again. It really is incumbent upon you at this point to provide some supporting evidence for your argument. Otherwise, it's hard to be infinitely patient. Really. I've assumed the best of faith on your part, but I don't think it's asking too much for you to document the validity of your argument. Othewise, it's just your argument, and whether that argument is right or wrong is beside the point; you've been around the block here and must know perfectly well about WP:V and WP:NOR. And WP:IDHT, for that matter. Rivertorch (talk) 22:25, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I resent the accusation of a personal attack North, especially since you have brought nothing to the table here thus far and clearly not read WP:Activist. Thanks Jenova20 22:27, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

FWIW, I see that as perhaps inflammatory and not moving the discussion forward. That essay is quite flaw as far as I can see, it presumes the worst intentions and puts anyone "we don't like" into a box with a label. I like Rivertorch's approach to just seeking sourcing to back up the assertions. At the end of the day that's what will matter.Insomesia (talk) 22:40, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

That the second definition is controversial is easily sourced. But, it is even simpler than that. To give one of hundreds of examples and pose it as a question: The statement "Disapproval of homosexuality and of gay people is not evenly distributed throughout society, but is more or less pronounced according to age, ethnicity, geographic location, race, sex, social class, education, partisan identification and religious status." is place in this homophobia article. Where is the suitable sourcing that says that this disapproval is "homophbia". Without that, the insertion of that sentence here is synthesis, unsourced, and a wp:npov violation. North8000 (talk) 23:55, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I've added a source that seems to cover it. The other source in that paragraph may also do so but I felt a journal article might be stronger. I think it's meant as a summary sentence but do agree it could be clearer.Insomesia (talk) 03:11, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

True fear of homosexuality is most certainly homophobia. That is not what is in question North8000. However due to the use of the english language it also includes aversion, antipathy, discrimination and prejudice towards homosexuals. Etymology does not equal proper usuage. Other words that use phobia in the sense used in this article include Islamophobia, Biphobia, Ephebiphobia, Gerontophobia, Heterophobia, Lesbophobia, Pedophobia, Surdophobia, Transphobia, Xenophobia. Other words in the terms of social prejudice that don't match their etymology are Antisemitism. The etymology would suggest discrimination against all semitic people yet Antisemitism only applies to Jews. Misandry and Misogyny etymologically suggest only hate of men and women respectively but actually also include objectification as well as creation of limiting gender roles irrespective of a persons possibly non-existant hate. Now I may just be barking up the wrong tree here but if you really had an agenda to correct the -phobia articles or other social articles with etymological "misuses" wouldn't you also be crusading those articles.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 11:01, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know of any place that "phobia" has been misused except here. Nevertheless, the reason for my comments is not that, it is the severe POV problem / wp:npov violation described. North8000 (talk) 21:16, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Asserting that the meaning has been misused is a big accusation though North8000 and you have just been given many more examples by Rivertorch of phobias that do not have the meaning you expect.

If there is such a severe POV problem you would be best providing references we can use after so long discussing this, or getting in a neutral third opinion.

Either way the onus is still on you to provide evidence of a POV and misuse of the word and meaning. Thanks Jenova20 08:14, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I already did that, which essentially boils down to this: Out in the real world, there are two widespread conflicting viewpoints regarding whether or not to define ALL opposition to homosexuality as "homophobia". This article states the views of one side (the side that wants to do so) as fact and in the voice of Misplaced Pages. Then it goes on to essentially list all forms of opposition to homosexuality as being examples of "homophobia". Which of the following things that I just said do you doubt/contest? North8000 (talk) 10:43, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I think I missed where this point was proven. To me the bottom line is reliable sources to show how this article, as it is now, should change. If you provided this already I'd appreciate if you could repost here again. If not I think we really need to see those sources, without them the point you're making feels like a strong opinion, which may be true to you, but for our purposes for writing the article is not enough. To put it more bluntly, we need a simple answer, do you have reliable sources to support the change you seek? If not then we are wasting your time. If you do have some sources we should be looking at them to see what will make the article better.Insomesia (talk) 11:03, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

(added later) Well, everything I said about "out the real world" is easily sourcable. WP:RS's do not cover wp:npov policy violations, so my observations about the article's policy violation problems are not covered by wp:rs's, nor do they need to be. North8000 (talk) 11:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

All of them North, since "Out in the real world" is not citeable as evidence. It is completely POV and Original Research still, just as the last time you asked. Thanks Jenova20 11:08, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

It is bogus to imply that something written on a talk page is bogus because it is uncited. Talk pages do not have citations and references. North8000 (talk) 11:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

You're not seriously suggesting you don't see the difference between the encyclopedia and the talk pages for the articles after being here so long?

Everything here on the talk page is conversation, everything on the article page is the encyclopedia itself and should be cited fact, not uncited POV. Thanks Jenova20 11:50, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I not only see it, that was specifically my point, and that your previous post ignored that. North8000 (talk) 12:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

You do see that you can't just cry bias without provided resources though right?

Thanks Jenova20 12:37, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

To say it even briefer, I'm saying that there are two significant viewpoints, "A" and "B". This article in essence makes an unsupported and unsourced statement that "B" IS THE ONLY VIEWPOINT. I am complaining about that. What in this sentence are you saying I need to source in order to make the complaint? North8000 (talk) 12:44, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Well sorry North but your viewpoint "A" is still unsourced. Can you provide anything to show it exists outside the heads of a few random people? Thanks Jenova20 14:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Aside from that, the other viewpoint present is the meaning of the word which is sourced. Is that what this is again? The meaning of the word? Thanks Jenova20 14:08, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

What I'm hearing, and what has been alluded to by others elsewhere on this page, is that, at least for now, there are no reliable sources to support changing anything in the ways that North8000 is suggesting. For myself this is sufficient reason to wait until any further developments emerge, and they most certainly need to be in the form of presenting reliable sources. Anything else is just wasting the poster's time and energy and there is no need to do that.Insomesia (talk) 14:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm done saying the same thing over and over now. Until such time that reliable proof is offered up then i'm not touching this with a barge pole. Thanks Jenova20 14:35, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I thought it was obvious that "A" exists, and to a significant degree, and that such is easily sourceable. It sounds like you are saying that you do not acknowledge that. In that case, I'll get that sourcing. That's half of it. For the other half, where is the sourcing for the assertion in the article that "B" is the only significant viewpoint? And "B" by the way, is the assertion that the ONLY significant viewpoint is that all opposition to homosexuality is "Homophobia". North8000 (talk) 16:36, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

That's obvious. It's the definition of the word. HiLo48 (talk) 16:54, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

One more comment, and then per Insomesia and Jenova I think I'm done here, as consensus is crystal clear. The English language is littered with words and usages that some people—even lots of people—disagree with or disapprove of. So what? (See this relevant essay.) I don't think anyone here is doubting that there are people in this world who object to the word "homophobia" being used in the way it's generally used. But that's not noteworthy, and even if it were, it couldn't be taken as a given; it would need to be verifiable using reliable sources. Either there is a significant controversy over what has long been the primary usage of the word or there isn't—and if there is, reliable sources are out there to document it. If there isn't a significant controversy, then it would violate all three core content policies for this article to say otherwise. If you disagree, that's fine, but please don't keep arguing against consensus without bringing something new in the way of actual evidence to the table. Rivertorch (talk) 17:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

That's backwards. In Misplaced Pages, one must provide sourcing for what is IN the article. What is IN the article is the assertion that the only significant definition for "homophobia" defines all opposition to homosexuality as "homophobia". Where is your sourcing that that is the ONLY significant definition? I was preferring to keep it in talk although wp:ver clearly supports tagging the unsupported assertions. North8000 (talk) 17:35, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I've not seen another Misplaced Pages article where we somehow justify the obvious definition as the only one. You're the only one here arguing that it's not. And you've been doing it for a long time. You should probably be ignored on this matter. HiLo48 (talk) 17:46, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

To simplify, no, I'm arguing that what is in there is unsourced. North8000 (talk) 17:53, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

If you think that you are right and everyone else watching this page is wrong, there are legitimate avenues to pursue. Beating a dead horse isn't one of them. Rivertorch (talk) 18:01, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the next baby step up will be tagging the unsourced assertions. North8000 (talk) 18:08, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

No, ignoring consensus to tag something without providing the evidence that everyone is asking you for is not a legitimate next step. Misplaced Pages:DR#Resolving_content_disputes, which I linked above and link here again for your convenience, show the next steps per policy. Rivertorch (talk) 21:15, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Consensus can't overrule the verifiability requirement. Sincerely North8000 (talk) 21:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, WP:V, like all policies, became policy as a result of consensus back in the day, but whatever. Clearly, your interpretation of how WP:V applies to this article is in opposition to the local consensus. Therefore, it's up to you to demonstrate that global consensus supports your interpretation—and the way to do that is to ask for uninvolved editors to weigh in. Hence my suggestion. Rivertorch (talk) 21:24, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

It's a lot simpler than that. Unsourced assertions, once tagged, need to e either sourced or removed. North8000 (talk) 22:36, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Needs to be sourced...

Just so we're not overlooking what is a valid concern - that something in the article needs to be sourced - North8000 will you post the most-in-need sentences here that you feel are unsourced? This gives me a specific article issue to address and to me this would be a more productive route to improving the article.Insomesia (talk) 21:49, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Happy to. I'm a bit hurried at the moment, but I will. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:37, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

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