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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Notability (music) page.

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Names

Why are some artists listed with their nicknames, while others are listed with their real name? What is the standard naming? See Ivan Shopov and Federico Ágreda, versus Gridlok and Deadmau5, for example. Gravitoweak (talk) 00:19, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

That's not an issue of notability. The relevant policy is wp:AT. Further guidance is at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (biographies), but that is secondary to the policy. LeadSongDog come howl! 04:51, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposed modification to Others category

For Musicians outside Mass media traditions I believe the following set of rules are quite unhelpful and impractical Specifically the rule that states "5.Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable sub-culture". Errr... What exactly is a publication of subculture? The US is the only country that has commercial media specificallly for subcultures. In India traditional musicians dont rely on magazines or journals for establishing their work but instead rely on recognition amongst peers, critics and listeners. They tend to scoff at self promotion or even publicity. They believe that the responsibility of educating and publishing any literature about music is the specific responsibility of students (academic not artistic), scholars and historians. For all of the above any attempt to setup reputable magazines or litterature in this field meets with failure. I would like to instead draw attention to the concept of patrons. Most musicians in history (even european musicians) were known for their patrons (including kings, royal families etc.) In India this holds true. I would suggest that notability for classical musicians should instead include (1) awards and recognitions won (2) notable events to which they are invited to perform and (3) notable critics (ummm... notably criticised is a better word). Wikishagnik (talk) 21:47, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

By "publication of subculture" I think the authors want to accept "underground" publications, i.e. publications that may not be covered by general reference sources. Of course there is a lot of this in the U.S. but it stems from European traditions of publications that might not have been acceptable by censors who wanted to control information (just think of the enormous amount of underground publications that existed in formerly Communist countries in Eastern Europe). So even though a person might not make, e.g. the New York Times, they might be found in numerous publications that used to be circulated among fans and adherents. As a recent discussion argued, the mere existence of one award is not enough for a person to be notable, and I believe if a person's only claim to fame is having a patron, that too is not enough. If they are already notable, then this information can be folded into their article. -- kosboot (talk) 23:42, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the response but I don't think you understand my dilemma completely. These are some of the problems I face

1. Their is no reputed journal of Hindustani Classical Music. Their is no magazine or printed Journal which will meet the Misplaced Pages standards. In absence of these there are a couple of websites that discuss about these artists but I don't think Misplaced Pages encourages that
2. The awards I am talking about are National Awards that offer a lifetime of benefits to the recipients. A suitable comparison would be the medal of honor. Does a medal of honor recipient require to be mentioned by reputed journals to be mentioned on Misplaced Pages (O.k. I Know that medal of honor is not given to artists, but the awards I am talking about like the Bharat Ratna are lifetime achievement awards given by the government.
3. Some artists like Lata Mangeshkar and even the poet Rabindranath Thakur was never mentioned in any journal in India. A few European and American journals might mention them in the passing. But Lata Mangeshkar has been a Guiness Record Holder and Rabindranath Tagore is Nobel Laureate. My point is that these standards cannot be used for all artists all over the world. In most places around the world artists are better known from their reputation than their presence on billboards or journals Wikishagnik (talk) 10:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment: I share the sort of concerns that Wikishagnik is raising. Especially about publication discrepancies in different contexts. Language issues aside, my experience suggests that it's easier to find citable material for a contemporary British composer than for an Italian one (here saved mainly by allmusic.com). Such discrepancies may arguably end up tilting content in certain directions even within articles. For instance, it might appear that the musician in this stub is primarily a crossover artist, whereas in reality that's just one aspect of his work which also focuses very much on extending the artistic traditions of his gharana. Citation availability may affect content in subtle ways: although more balanced, this article shows some signs of a similar distortion. To tackle these issues, I feel it's important for Misplaced Pages guidelines (and their implementation) to remain flexible and sensitive to context. Otherwise, "We Will Rock You" risks taking on an unintended meaning. My two pebbles, MistyMorn (talk) 14:26, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment: Thanks, Wikishagnik, for explaining it better. I see it in a complex way now. I still think that verifiable information is necessary, but I accept that different cultural practices might mandate a special response. You can always create the article, and then see what administrators say about it. I've never been to India (for example), so I have a hard time imagining a popular performer who has absolutely nothing written about them. But I'll be willing to follow what happens when a few articles are created with a dearth of the typical documentation one expects. -- kosboot (talk) 16:41, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

While I am sensitive to systemic bias problems, I don't see how we can do away with the needs for reliable sources. Otherwise, how would we (random editors who've never heard the music) tell the difference between someone who is legitimately "notable" and someone who is just trying to promote themselves on Misplaced Pages? At a bare minimum, we would need an article that verified that they had been a recipient of the medal; that article itself should have information. If it didn't--i.e., if all we had was proof that a medal was awarded (like "Name: Awarded X on this year") how could we even write the article? Where would the information come from? And what would be the value in having an article with only one sentence in it--wouldn't it be better to create an article titled, "List of Prize X recipients"? Qwyrxian (talk) 02:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, I take the arguments of Mistymom, Kosboot and Qwyrxian, Thanks for reading through my suggestions but maybe I have more work cutout for me. There is a Page about Padmabhushan awards but does not mention the year 1993, the year when the artist I am interested in. I will have to do some more research on that. I dont mind all the work. Its just that I find it unfair that artists who do not enjoy the same literary cover of established European or American artists should be at a disadvantage. But I am not loosing hope. I will get this article posted. Oh, BTW I think Qwyrxian is confusing my artist with some wannabe's but trust me that's not the case. As I mentioned in my earlier argument the artist is not printed about, not that he is not recognised or respected, In India of course Wikishagnik (talk) 19:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Roxx Gang

Roxx Gang is meeting WP:NBAND? Dalit Llama (talk) 21:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

• It's close, I think. There appears to be some coverage of the band (mostly in the St. Petersburg Times, the band's hometown newspaper). Then there's a Billboard article here in which an A&R guy describes for a couple paragraphs why signing Roxx Gang was one of his "biggest mistakes". They have an entry in a book called American Hair Metal, which notes the band's debut album sold more than 250,000 copies. There is probably enough material from online sources to meet WP:BAND, but I doubt their albums meet WP:NALBUMS. Those articles can be nominated for deletion or be redirected to the band's main page if you prefer. Have a look and see if you agree.  Gongshow  07:28, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

inherent notability via chart

Do itunes sales charts count for this purpose? I am aware of several songs/albums that are otherwise not notable, but seem to be using this as the criteria for keepGaijin42 (talk) 00:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Chart notability

"The musician must meet one of the following crieria: Has had a single or album on any national music chart." Is this really enough? If an artist has one song charting at #73, then surely that's not notable? I once considered creating an article on UK band Two People, but decided not to as there was no way they could be considered notable enough. Here is their UK chart discography : two hits - one charting at #63 the other at #87. Their planned album never even got a release in the end. Perhaps the criteria could be redefined to at least one top 40 (or even top 20) single/album perhaps. The following criteria of at least one gold record is a far cry from one charting single.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 14:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I think those charts may not be notable enough for the inclusion of their articles on wikipedia, but if they had a song or something chart on the Official Charts Company, then they are in fact notable. As long as, the band or song had a hit on a chart on the official reputable chart by the any nation then they are notable. It does not specify number because the charts company decide what to chart and what not to, so we need to respect that! If they chart they are notable if not they are not.HotHat (talk) 06:51, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

That is the Official Charts Company (or Gallup as it was back in the 80s). Here is their entry on the official website - just officially a top 75. So yes, this particular group did chart in the UK, but I still don't think that they are notable for just this (they don't meet any other criteria). But I'm curious, you say The Official Charts Company decides what charts? --Tuzapicabit (talk) 12:31, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

It's rare for a band to have a top 75 hit without anybody writing about them, and it's inconceivable that Two People didn't receive any coverage, although unsurprisingly for a band that came and went in the mid-80s, most of it will be offline. They had a live concert broadcast as part of BBC Radio 1's In Concert series, so there's another of the notability criteria met. They also appeared on television - clip here. So, I would say that having a top 75 hit in the UK is a pretty good indicator of notability. --Michig (talk) 13:18, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

What Michig said. It's very rarely possible for anyone to reach even the bottom of a chart and get no attention. For example, there are one or two country music artists who only got to #60 or #59 for a week (the country chart only has 60 positions) and were never heard from again — those artists might be on the fence for notability at best. The band in question here is on the fence, but the proof that they were on a BBC series adds to their notability. Ten Pound Hammer • 17:36, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, I guess I'll have to accept the criteria as given, but the difference between having a chart hit is having a #63 against another factor which says they must have had a gold disc which indicates a song which must have at least hit the top three (and even then, many No.1 singles don't achieve gold status). As for this band in particular, I'm sure there was coverage in music magazines back then, but all that can be found online is chart links to their hit (other than that it's all blogs and YouTube, which don't count towards an article).--Tuzapicabit (talk) 18:02, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

One-off group that won Eurovision Song Contest

Hi, I have a question regarding an ensemble of two separate artists Ell & Nikki who won the Eurovision Song Contest 2011 that were chosen to compete for an event by singing "Running Scared". So they eventually won that event and now have an article based on the ensemble itself. The event is highly notable in Misplaced Pages. But after the event they didn't record anymore material together. They began working separately as solo artists. I have a feeling that they were just separate artists. Bleubeatle (talk) 02:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Why have you brought this here? The result of your nomination Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ell & Nikki was a snowall keep. Did that not answer your question?--Tuzapicabit (talk) 10:53, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I tend to think that AFD is indicative of the problem we have with the Eurovision song contest. People are insistent on documenting every detail of the contest and every winner, with each song in the contest being given individual articles. Many of these songs and artists have no notability outside the context of the contest and would be better off being document as part of an omnibus article.—Kww(talk) 12:15, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Well that's not really my point but I think that there should be a guideline to what makes a group an actual "group" in this site. Just because two individual artists competed together in a notable competition and won plus their song charted around the world, an article should be created that states that they are a group (which meets one of the notabilities of this article). Then why isn't there an article called "Kanye West and Jay-Z" then? (they won a Grammy, an achievement that makes them notable enough). Bleubeatle (talk) 06:28, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Possibly true that not every songs needs its own article, but certainly every artist who has ever appeared in Eurovision would meet WP:NOTABILITY, so yes, they should have an article, but perhaps the songs for many of them should be merged into the artists' page.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 21:22, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Every song performed and every singer/group/duo who has performed in Eurovision is notable beyond WP:MUSIC.--BabbaQ (talk) 13:47, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Only if you treat the contest's "awards" as meeting WP:MUSIC. It's a perversion of the guideline to treat every element of the contest as notable because the contest gives awards: it's self-referential notability.—Kww(talk) 00:38, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

A contest with over 100 million viewers has inherit notability. Most songs in the contest charts within days of being performed so mostly it's not a problem.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:00, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

A group performing in the contest would have instant notability, but not necessarily the songs themselves. As the guideline for song articles state; Song articles should only be created if there is enough information for a worthy article as well as saying that most songs do not merit their own article and information should be merged with a parent album article or group article. If you look at examples like this: The Mullans and When You Need Me, neither article is decent (nor ever will be, let's face it). The song information could (and should) easily be merged with the group. And even if neither article existed, you still have this: Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest 1999. So we have three articles concerning one song which placed badly in the contest and flopped in every chart in Europe.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 18:14, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Nothing, nothing at all, is inherently notable.—Kww(talk) 00:09, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Those articles require some expansion though. If they won a national song selection for example and you put sources about that in there they can become notable. Winning a national song selection contest can make it notable. Bleubeatle (talk) 06:04, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok just forget what I initially asked here but are there guidelines to what makes a group, a "group" in Misplaced Pages articles? Like about how they were formed. Do group/band articles have to meet a criteria? Ell & Nikki are already notable since they took part in the contest and I understand that. I just have my doubts if they were actually a group or were just separate artists that competed together. That's what I'm wondering. Bleubeatle (talk) 06:11, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Despite all the dissenting opinions, I have to agree with what Bleubeatle is saying -- famous musicians often made albums together than are classics, but we have articles on the album and of course on the individuals, but they aren't a 'group'. The question is, because they only preformed together specifically for the event, are they a group or did they simply combine their talents for the event? I'm thinking potentially the Ell & Nikki article could be merged into the article on the song they sung (and keep their separate articles as well, of course). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:26, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Completely agree with Melodia. J04n(talk page) 14:29, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Hey guys, thank you so much for the input. I completely agree with this. There should be something in Misplaced Pages that 'defines' what a musical group is and not just rely on notability. If they can be meet the definition then an article should be written about them. Anyways I don't want to question the notability now since that would be canvassing and going against consensus but if you guys have any more input to give feel free to post them at Ell & Nikki's talk page. Bleubeatle (talk) 00:40, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

In the AfD I said I alluded to a combined group/individuals article and a separate song article, but I can see merit in the similar proposal of two separate biographies plus a combined song and group article, as this may display the information better in the long-term, presuming this group was indeed only temporary and will not make a come back - if it does, that position will be changed. In any case, I remain opposed to a straight deletion and suggest the group article be re-directed to the song it is connected to with information merged in as appropriate. The status quo is hardly terrible, but some merging will make things more complete and less fragmented. CT Cooper · talk 09:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC)