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Adminship?

Hi there Tryptofish. I just had this crazy idea that you might want to think about. I was wondering if you'd ever be interested in being an admin. You seem experienced and clueful enough. Unless you've got any hidden skeletons, I'd be happy to nominate you if you'd like. Let me know if you're interested. AD 23:12, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi Aiken, and thank you so very much! I am very flattered by what you said. I'm going to say "no thank you", for the time being, while leaving the door open for later on, like maybe a year from now. In brief, I personally do not feel ready for it yet, and I'm at a stage in real life when I temporarily cannot offer the project the additional time that this would take. I can explain all of that at greater length if you'd like, but that's the WP:KISS version. But sometime later: who knows. Thank you again for the very kind words. Best, --Tryptofish (talk) 00:05, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Even though I've archived subsequent talk threads, I'm intentionally leaving this thread at the top of my talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:51, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Personal Question

It says you have a Doctorate of Philosophy in Biochemistry. Did I read that right? How do philosophy and biochemistry intersect? It sounds like a subject matter I'd be very interested in.Jasonnewyork (talk) 18:53, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, they don't. A Doctor of Philosophy or Ph.D. degree (which see) simply means that it's a doctoral degree in what I guess one could call basic studies, as opposed to a Doctor of Medicine or Doctor of Law, or other "professional" doctorates. It doesn't mean study of philosophy at all. My field of study was biochemistry, cell biology, and molecular biology. In my later academic career, I've specialized in neuroscience. If you are interested, I know that there are various programs in the history of science, and one can also study philosophy of science, which focuses on how it applies to science, though not necessarily to biochemistry. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking that might be the case. It's good to know a good neuroscientist. I used to read Scientific Mind on a regular basis, but I'd forgotten about it lately. I'll have to check it out again. Any other good sites for layman-esque-level articles on neuroscience?Jasonnewyork (talk) 17:35, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

One that comes to mind is this: Brainfacts.org. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:33, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Cool site. I'll check it out. thanks.Jasonnewyork (talk) 04:56, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Hope you don't mind me adding to this, but IIRC the origin of the term "Doctor of Philosophy" as applied to a science dates to the medieval name for the natural sciences in general, "natural philosophy." - Jorgath (talk) 01:05, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Notification

Your question

Please see: Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fæ/Evidence#A question, and User talk:Lord Roem#Hatting. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:40, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

There's two angles I'd point you to; first, that people on WR/Wikipediocracy have been carrying out a campaign to get Wikimedia UK stripped of its charitable status. Fae is, of course, a big cheese in WMUK. The other angle that seems relevant to me is the one alluded to by Tarc; WR/Wikipediocracy seems to have become a hub for anti-sex campaigners like our very own Jayen466. Fae has become a target for the anti-sex mob due some of his previous editing and his defence of sexual content on Misplaced Pages. Are you aware that Jayen has teamed up with a banned user to lobby Parliament in person against WMUK and Fae in particular? Prioryman (talk) 20:18, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this information, and no, I wasn't aware of all of it. But I'm really not asking merely for my personal interest, but because I think that the Arbs need to see the answers, including but not limited to what you are telling me here. And that is why I am very unhappy with the clerk having pre-empted the discussion where it ought to be. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:21, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Drop me an email, Trypto, and I'll give you some links. Prioryman (talk) 20:54, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer, but I never do e-mail here, if for no other reason than I don't want to become the target of people who want to know who I am in real life. My position continues as I said it just above. I'm not interested in taking a "side" in this case (nor in criticizing other users), so I won't be of any use to you with respect to those links. What I want is for the Arbitrators to see the facts. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:57, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Someone kindly mentioned to me that I was being mentioned here. Perhaps I can be of help? The link you are looking for, I imagine, is here. As for Fæ, he and I have since worked out our differences on adult content, and have realised that, as Fæ put it on the evidence page, we are not on opposite sides of this debate. Even the "banned user" Prioryman is referring to above has since had a productive and amicable meeting with Jon Davies, the Wikimedia UK Chief Executive. --JN466 01:52, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I'll repeat here my question that got cut off, for all comers to answer if they wish. It appears that the anger at Fae comes from the so-called "Commons porn problem". As I said in the hatted discussion, I can understand why people would disagree about sexually-explicit material on Wikimedia sites, but why get permanently angry over it? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:07, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Even in my real-world social circles (which are fairly polite and well-manners) no one would bat an eye if something nasty is said about Sally Kern. If my church friends were also my friends on Misplaced Pages and the topic of conversation turned to something Kern had said, comments entirely inappropriate for Misplaced Pages could easily slip into the conversation because the external atmosphere could easily be imported. The environment was entirely more toxic at WR (I can't speak to Wikipediocracy, since I have not ventured over there) driven not only by online culture, but also by the personalities the site attracted - people who were both disenchanted with Misplaced Pages and (especially among banned users) people who felt disenfranchised. Given the baseline culture, once someone picks and promotes and enemy, the demonisation creates a positive feedback loop. Since many of those people are active over here and are interacting on this issue, there's no surprise in seeing a part of that atmosphere imported over here. And with enough people repeating the slur, it ceases to be a slur and instead becomes part of the conversational norm, even over here.

Or that's (definitely not unbiased) read on the situation. Guettarda (talk) 21:24, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes sense. But I question how Fae/Ash's conduct on-Wiki really resembles that of Sally Kern in real life, although I also make note of Hullabaloo's observation at the other page, which may also make sense. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Guettarda's explanation of the social dynamics does indeed make sense but there is also a political dynamic at work. The background to all of this does indeed seem to be the sexual content issue. From my reading, it seems that various people on WR/Wikipediocracy have identified sexual content as the Achilles heel of the Wikimedia Foundation and Wikimedia UK. Some of the banned users appear to have harboured fantasies that they could overthrow the WMF and WMUK by "exposing" the sexual content. The strategy seems to have evolved since then. There was an exchange on WR back in March that's worth noting:

Fae has, of course, been involved with writing or uploading sexuality-related content to Misplaced Pages or Commons, and has been a leading figure in WMUK. The focus on Fae in the off-wiki campaign seems to have been inextricably linked with the bid to undermine or overthrow WKUK. Cla68 called the briefing against Fae "great stuff. Peter's submission exposes Fae as a charlatan." Prioryman (talk) 21:53, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Nothing personal, really, but I hatted (irony duly noted!) the dialog from an external website. I'm not looking to cast aspersions on other users here. I think we've gone far enough down this branch of the road. So let me ask, then, what about the observations by Hullaballoo W. at the other page? They, also, seem reasonable to me. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:02, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) And that's how trouble gets started...there's an obvious (in-group) joke to make in response to that question which would, in Misplaced Pages, get me in serious trouble. But the more serious answer, I think, is that there doesn't need to be any similarity. I could speculate, of course...starting with the way that heterosexual-identifying males tend to react to gay porn...but that would add very little to what has been said already. Being a gay man is a strike against you. Interests in bondage and gay porn are additional strikes. Now that doesn't mean that Fae is blameless, simply that these act as modifiers or intensifiers for many people. Couple it with the "men's locker room" atmosphere of a place like WR, and you very quickly end up with the sort of reaction you observed.

While what I'm saying is, in my mind, a plausible explanation, that doesn't mean that it's the correct explanation. The outcome may have been the same without any of these intensifiers. I have no way to test my hypothesis. Guettarda (talk) 21:57, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, and sorry about those edit conflicts – this is the busiest my talk has been in ages! That leads me back again to what I just re-asked above: what about the observations by Hullaballoo W. at the other page? They, also, seem reasonable to me. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:05, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there's any doubt that Fae hasn't helped his cause with some of his comments. HW's comments do have some basis in fact. But if you look at where all this started, chronologically, first there was a controversy over Ash's editing of gay porn BLPs following which there was a long period of quiet while Fae gained a very solid reputation as an outstanding editor and real-world evangelist for Misplaced Pages. He got his adminship with an overwhelming majority (something like 87% of votes in favour). But what kicked off the current controversy? A post by Delicious carbuncle on WR that highlighted Fae's election to a position at Wikimedia UK. Politics again. Prioryman (talk) 22:15, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Good, this is starting to make sense to me. After all, HW cited Jimbo as someone who was bothered by Fae, so there clearly seems to be a two-way street here. But it also seems to me that this street probably had its start when Fae/Ash found himself as the target of anger directed at sex, if not specifically homophobia. That, then, descended into both "sides" being hostile to each other. I do not think that two wrongs make a right, of course, so that doesn't excuse Fae from being difficult and probably wrong on some of the editing, but I do get the feeling that the genesis of this whole thing began with some people who just didn't like sexual content and were willing to make a big fight about it. I hope someone from the other "side" will comment here if I have misunderstood the situation. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:28, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I think you have been lead astray by someone. Often in discussions about Commons, someone will make the accusation that complaints about sexual images are anti-porn (or "anti-sex"). This is almost always untrue, but it is an easy way for the accuser to polarize the argument, reframe it to their advantage, and define the complainant as unreasonable. Having fallen for this tactic, it is easy to read discussions on WR or Wikipediocracy wrongly believing this to be the motivation of the participants. Having been involved in many discussions on WR, I can tell you that most of the people who have concerns about Commons or overuse of sexual images on WP are not prudes or in any way "anti-sex". For my part, I can recall encouraging Ash to create properly-sourced BLPs stubs of gay porn performers to mitigate the issue of having links in lists pointing to the wrong person. This seems like an odd thing for a homophobe or prude to do, doesn't it? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:45, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

It really goes beyond the Commons issue, bleeding into conduct on Misplaced Pages, and touches on one of those long-standing factional disputes for Wikipedians. Basically, there are those who want to put provocative material on Misplaced Pages or Commons just because they can and others basically want to censor Misplaced Pages "for the children" or some other moralistic objection. Fæ with his current and prior account often added material (not just images) that seemed to exemplify the former mentality and that not only put him in conflict with people of the latter mentality, but also exposed him to some opposition from the people in between who think WP:NOTCENSORED is too often abused by people who really just want to fill the Internet with even more porn. What Guettarda describes is more of an already-heated dispute being amplified by bringing on people with intersecting causes. Underlying the dispute over how to deal with material some people consider offensive is a dispute over the very nature of Misplaced Pages that itself ties into the approach we take to developing human knowledge and the structure of society in the wider world. At the core of all this arguing about censorship is a battle for Misplaced Pages's soul, if you will, and people tend to hold very long grudges over such fanciful notions.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:42, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very helpful. So then, if I look at it from the other side of the argument than what I've been hearing so far, would it be accurate to say that the Ash account actually "started it"? Was it simply a matter of content that pushed boundaries, or also of conduct that was unilaterally disruptive in defense of that content? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:48, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with the hatting of your question on the page either. I have several concerns which is why I'm involved. RfC's take a lot of time to put together. If an editor does a clean start in the middle of one, then isn't completely forthcoming about it when they do an RfA, it appears that they aren't honoring WP's dispute resolution process. The rules should apply the same way to everyone. Also, I, like many WR and WPCY participants have a short fuse when it comes to editors who may have abused BLPs in Misplaced Pages. Other editors active in this case besides Fae have been criticized at WR and WPCY for their activities with certain BLP articles in Misplaced Pages, and it wouldn't surprise me if they aren't very happy about it, and that may be reflected in some of the comments you have received in this thread here on your talk page. In fact, it has been my experience that editors who have been caught abusing BLPs in Misplaced Pages by WR and WPCY will later express great anger towards those two sites. Also, it appears that the WMUK has tried to help cover up this situation on behalf of Fae, or at least overlook it. In addition, it is my opinion that WMUK's representatives were not completely accurate in their presentation to the UK government when they requested charity status. Furthermore, the WMF and WMUK have consistently failed and refused to provide any effective leadership over the WM projects. They try to use the work of the volunteers to further their own agendas, but decline to take any responsibility for content issues, such as BLP defamation and the adult content present in Commons. Finally, many editors who have tried to provide Fae with feedback on his editing behavior, including with his prior accounts, have been rebuffed, either by Fae or his supporters, and in some cases were accused of "harassment" and "homophobia." Cla68 (talk) 23:05, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Cla, and I appreciate what you said about the hatting thing. I'm not really looking here for a rehashing of everything that has gone on over time, so much as trying to get at the origins. I think that there's an emerging picture here that the origins lie with early editing under the Ash account that may or may not have been incorrect in terms of BLP policy, and may or may not have been disruptive in terms of the NotCensored policy. What sounds very Roshomon-like to me, with different people seeing it from different "sides", is what happened in those early days. Did good faith Wikipedians find themselves accused of harassment or homophobia simply for politely pointing out errors in, for example, BLP sourcing? Or did Fae/Ash find himself being targeted for having contributed content in good faith? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I intend to demonstrate in the RFAR that the former is true, as I believe that thinly-veiled accusations of homophobia were used to discourage me (and other editors) from questioning the editing of Benjiboi and Ash. I also believe that these allegations, coupled with the subject matter, discouraged editors from getting involved in the ANI threads regarding BLPs of gay porn performers, since most people do not wish to be labelled as homophobic. Of course, that does not necessarily mean that Ash and Benjiboi did not believe the allegations they made of homophobia and harassment, but my feeling has always been that it was a disingenuous tactic to avoid scrutiny. The transition from Ash to Fæ during the RFC/U would seem to support this belief. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:46, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I'll be looking with interest at what you plan to demonstrate. If there are diffs, that will be very informative. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the hard line against Fae generally comes down to his rather nasty way of playing political games, which lately have included characterizing people like me as part of a "traveling circus", some sort of lackey for Gregory Kohs, a radical conservative (I'm not, btw), a homophobic activist, and/or an apologist for homophobic activists. He doesn't do that exclusively to the WR/WY people, but he does it rather relentlessly to us.

I certainly don't speak for all of the "circus members", but my particular beef is that I became quite alienated from a community and project I love after being subjected to some completely unjustified ill treatment I received from one of Misplaced Pages's cabals, because I didn't do what one of their "leaders" wanted me to do on a smaller WMF project. Fae and his followers seem to be doing that to other people, and I don't like to see that happen.

As for Prioryman's out of context quote from me above: I absolutely support the people who contribute to Misplaced Pages and projects like it. I absolutely don't support people who take advantage of the contributors and use their donated money to throw parties and live the life of the jet set. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 23:09, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, and I hatted that quote because I don't want you or anyone else to feel like I'm hosting anything that's hostile to anyone. But, again, do you feel like that nastiness began with Fae, or was Fae responding in kind to what was directed at him? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:20, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

By "nastiness" do you mean rancor? I think what occurred is that a few editors (I wasn't one of them) criticized one or more of Fae's earlier accounts for certain actions, and Fae and co-editor Benjiboi (who is now community banned) responded extremely defensively. I think this story has been laid out in the evidence section. I think when editors take the time to provide constructive feedback or criticism to someone, and are harshly rebuffed, they react by increasing the scrutiny on the editor in question. There has been some "nasty" comments on all sides. Cla68 (talk) 23:42, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

(after e/c) Honestly I think it's a chicken and egg sort of thing when it comes to how it all started (though Cla probably knows about the beginning of it better than I). I think the only person who could bring it to an end is Fae: really just a matter of saying "ok, my bad, I won't do xyz anymore", and then not doing it anymore which would satisfy the actual critics (the actual trolls would keep at it, but that's what trolls do). --SB_Johnny | ✌ 23:49, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

By "nastiness", I was quoting SB Johnny's use of the word "nasty". As for who can bring it to an end, it takes two to, um, tango, so I don't really accept that it all falls on one "side's" shoulders. And as for the chicken/egg, that's what I'm trying to sort out. What starts to emerge in what I see is that, whenever we get close to answering it, either a "chicken" or an "egg" steps back from looking too closely, and instead starts to rehash more recent arguments. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

My comment above was more or less trying to say, in the immortal words of Billy Joel, we didn't start the fire, it was always burning since the world's been turning. I do not think Ash was "targeted" in that he did do things that brought on the reaction he got and it was not malicious discrimination. It is basically a philosophical difference about what should or should not be on Misplaced Pages and everyone running to their respective sides of the battlefield. That difference existed before Ash started editing and is rooted in philosophical differences in society that predate Misplaced Pages itself. Fæ, perhaps due to his own personal experiences, has not dealt with the criticism of his actions well and this has fueled hostility towards him. At the same time, people on the other side have pursued the matter so relentlessly as to give basis for those feelings of persecution and it becomes self-affirming. That there are very real comments harassing or offensive in nature directed at him does not help the situation regardless of where those comments originate. Having experienced harassment myself in real-life and online, including here on Misplaced Pages, it is pretty easy to lose sight of who is part of the group harassing and who is just innocently being drawn into the dispute on the side of the majority who are inherently presumed to be right.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:36, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

That was very well-said, really. What has stood out to me, as someone who was not here from the early days of this dispute, is that Fae and his defenders seem to be pretty consistently civil in the RFAR (although, as I've noted in my own evidence, I've seen Fae complain elsewhere of homophobia where there was none), whereas there have been several of his detractors who have come across as consistently mean-spirited. It seems to me, as someone who has, myself, been involved in quite a few heated disagreements on Misplaced Pages, that it does no good to demonize those with whom one disagrees. I think that the vehemence of some of the comments about Fae does no service to those making those comments. I don't see Fae as someone who has any kind of entrenched support that would give him an "upper hand" here. Instead, I think that some (not all!) of the accusers come across as just too angry for what the situation actually is. It's one thing to present evidence of bad conduct in editing; it's another to present it in a manner that shows barely-concealed fury. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:57, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

You know the phrase, "it takes two to Tango" is usually used to refer to someone becoming pregnant? Anyway, my experience with Fae's RfC was one of the most unpleasant experiences with an RfC I have ever had. The ad hominem attacks by Fae's supporters (but not by Fae, at least, in that venue) of "harassment" and "homophobia" towards the majority who were expressing concerns with Fae's behavior, were among the worst I have ever seen in Misplaced Pages. Cla68 (talk) 01:03, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

About the tango, yes, I was using the phrase with deliberate humor, but beyond that, I'm not going to touch that! And, in the weird universe of watching discussions on the Internet, thank you Cla for what I saw you say on another website. As for RfC/U, I'm convinced that it's a process that never works. And it was held after there had been a lot of history. But it's noteworthy, I think, that you point out that Fae himself wasn't an attacker there (although I guess it could be replied that he didn't really participate). I'm making the case that bad experiences aren't a good reason to keep on being angry. (It's only a website!) I said above to DC that I look forward to seeing diffs from early on, but I get the feeling that there has been too much personalization of the objections to the edits that Ash had made. And I'm going to log out very soon, so good night to those who are commenting on my talk page! --Tryptofish (talk) 01:17, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Your edits at WP Notability

Hello, I started to write this on the talk page over at WP Notability. However, I just want to give you a quick response. In regards to your question (or concern) --- your edit is part of the proposals. If you go through the proposals you will see that "Every topic on Misplaced Pages must be one for which sources comply with Misplaced Pages:Verifiability..." is mentioned twice in the proposals and reccomended by at least one editor. If there are other edits that were missed please let us know. I think it is important that we are being fair to everyone involved. ---- Steve Quinn (talk) 22:23, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this note. I appreciate it! Yes, I did realize that you were already aware that my edit got caught up in the revert, and that you had already posted on the talk page about whether or not there was consensus to put it back. I'm very satisfied with the discussion that is happening now. No worries! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:35, 14 June 2012 (UTC)