Misplaced Pages

Talk:Bell's theorem: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 21:24, 26 June 2012 editSlawekb (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users11,467 edits →Lede: comment← Previous edit Revision as of 22:05, 26 June 2012 edit undoF=q(E+v^B) (talk | contribs)4,289 edits archive extremley long terminated discussionsNext edit →
Line 14: Line 14:
|target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes |target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes
}} }}

== Bell's assumptions ==

Throughout this article, references are made variously to tricky philosophical concepts like hidden variables, realism and counterfactual definiteness. Indeed, these are almost all mentioned as soon as possible within the introduction. I have found a similar issue on the page "Nonlocality" and it doubtless occurs on many other pages discussing quantum foundations.

There is some debate in the literature over the exact assumptions of Bell's Theorem and many, many physicists use the term "local realism" in their papers (without really thinking about it, in my opinion). However, after some thought and research it seems apparent that the only real assumption Bell makes in his theorem, is Locality. That is, the statement of Bell's Theorem should really be:

:: no physical theory satisfying locality (or local causality) can reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics.

To quote Tim Maudlin (cited below):

:: "Bell did prove that no local deterministic theory, no local hidden variables theory, and no local realistic theory can make The Predictions because he proved that no local theory can make The Predictions. But the addition of the unnecessary adjective yields a highly misleading result."

Counterfactual definiteness is just as misleading. The confusion appears to have arisen out of Bell's inference that results of spin measurements in a local theory predicting EPR correlations, must be predetermined. To quote Maudlin again (he expresses the argument very succintly, so I don't feel bad about this!):

:: "Bell cites exactly the EPR correlations (for any chosen direction a to measure spin) and a locality condition (“if two measurements are made at places remote from one another the orientation of one magnet does not influence the result obtained by the other”) and concludes (“it follows that”) that the theory must postulate an initial state for the particles that predetermines the results of all possible spin measurements and therefore must assign a more complete state than the singlet state. No invocation, either explicit or implicit, of any assumption of counterfactual definiteness appears in this argument. Rather, a form of counterfactual definiteness (that is, the claim that the initial state of the particles must determine what the result of any spin measurement would have been) follows from the argument."

Also, for good measure, a quote from Bell in "Bertlmann's socks..." which has the same meaning if you replace "determinism" with "counterfactual definiteness":

:: “It is important to note that to the limited degree to which determinism plays a role in the EPR argument, it is not assumed but inferred. What is held sacred is the principle of ‘local causality’ or ‘no action at a distance…’ It is remarkably difficult to get this point across, that determinism is not a presupposition of the analysis."

I propose that the article replaces any mention of hidden variables, realism, counterfactual definiteness etc... with the word "locality", unless it is otherwise relevent (for instance, when discussing exactly this kind of confusion). It might be argued that since a lot of physicists explicitly use the words "local realism" this is too one-sided for Misplaced Pages - this annoys me since then Misplaced Pages is contributing greatly to the confusion. At the very least, I propose to add a section clarifying these assumptions in the context of the theorem, and outlining arguments from both sides (however much it pains me).

Sources:

- Bell's "Speakable and Unspeakable...": The papers "La Nouvelle Cuisine" and "Bertlmann's socks..." have many pertinent comments along these lines.

- Travis Norsen "Against Realism" http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0607057: cites a barrage of arguments against using words like "realism" and "counterfactual definiteness". Convincingly argued.

- Tim Maudlin "What Bell proved..." http://ajp.aapt.org/resource/1/ajpias/v78/i1/p121_s1?view=fulltext

] (]) 14:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

: Personally I think that Bell is making three assumptions. <p> 1. Freedom, in the sense of the freedom of the experimenter to choose measurement settings. You can get mixed up in discussions of free will and or existence of physical randomness here, but the point is that there is an assumption that the measurement setting chosen at location A is not "available" at location B till after the measurement outcome there has become definitive. <p> 2. Realism, in the sense that we are considering classical-like theories that allow us to consider at the same time not only the outcome of the measurement which was actually made, but also the outcome of the other measurement which *could* have been made. <p> 3. Locality, in the sense that neither factual nor counterfactual outcome at location A is in any way influenced by *which* measurement was performed at location B, and vice versa. <p> Well, this is my own opinion, and not everyone may agree, but my point is that the word "local" has to refer to things which apparently "ought to be localized". If you reduce the number of things which you consider as "real", it is easier for a theory to be thought of as local. If you say that the outcomes of the measurements which were not done are not part of physical reality (or at least, not localized at the places where you would instinctively like to place them), there is no violation of locality at all. <p> One reason why I like this collection of three basic ingredients (freedom, realism, locality) is that it is the minimal set of assumptions from which one can derive the CHSH inequality. See for instance http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0208187.pdf. <p> Sorry to cite again my own work. I am not trying to get it cited on the wikipedia page, just trying to contribute to the discussion. ] (]) 13:49, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
: By the way, I think that "counterfactual definiteness" is simply a more technical and precise way to describe "realism". Every derivation of Bell's theorem makes assumptions which imply counterfactual definiteness. But counterfactual definiteness is enough. There is also a converse: satisfaction of all CHSH inequalities implies counterfactual definiteness. <p> I agree though, that Maudlin would disagree. On the other and, plenty of authorities agree (Mermin, Gisin, ...). <p> The issue is complicated by the fact that the quantum predictions in the singlet state include a perfect anti-correlation when the same measurement is done on both particles. This allows one to bring in the EPR reality criterion as a way, assuming locality, to argue for counterfactual definiteness. But it is for good reasons that Bell moved from his original argument to an argument based on CHSH. His model assumptions, which he makes on general physical grounds, imply counterfactual definiteness. And as I mentioned, with locality and freedom assumed, counterfactual definiteness is necessary and sufficient for CHSH. ] (]) 17:00, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

== Joy Christian ==

I put this man's name in to replace a {{who?}} tag. It has now been removed and the man has been called a "fringe lunatic". I don't think such language should be used about an academic. Faith versus heresy is back. ] (]) 10:27, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

: The "fringe lunatic" part was meant to be humourous. Is it enough to add references for the statement concerned, or do we really have to put down names in the article itself? The reason I ask is that there aren't any reputable practising academics who doubt Bell violations (as far as I can see). For example, looking at the arxiv (since I don't think he has any peer-reviewed published work on the matter), Christian's papers since about 2007 have repeatedly propounded the same argument with varying degrees of comprehensibility. There have been several papers by more reputable authors with simple refutations of his argument, after which the vast majority of academics have moved on. Essentially, it seems bizarre to explicitly state names, since it appears to promote their thoughts on the matter to a level of significance equal to those of Einsten, Bell, CHSH etc... --] (]) 11:13, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

:I read on Misplaced Pages's style guidelines that "The templates {{Who}}, {{Which?}}, {{By whom}}, or {{Attribution needed}} are available for editors to request that an individual statement be more clearly attributed." I think the attribution is fairly clear as it stands? --] (]) 11:24, 4 May 2011 (UTC))

:: Reference 9 on the wikipeda article page, by Caroline Thompson, is an example of an approach which exploits the detection loophole. She allows her spin half particles to be not detected at all, on occasion, in a way which depends both on the local hidden variables and the measurement setting. She has a pretty and completelly classical physical picture involving spinning balls which accomplishes this in a way which even appears quite natural. <p> The point here is that it is easy to see that if half of the photons (or whatever) on either side of the experiment are allowed to go undetected, then the two photons together can easily arrange to generate whatever four pairs of correlations they like (I'm thinking of the CHSH experiment). At the source the photons together decide what pair of settings they want in this run, and what their two outcomes will be. Each one, on arrival at the detector, compares his "desired setting" with the real setting, and if they disagree, he decides not to be detected at all. More clever schemes allow photons only to go undetected about 5% of the time at each detector and still together exactly reproduce the correlations which quantum physics predicts, in a totally local realistic way. The best experiments to date, by the way, have *detection rates* around 5%, so non-detection rates of around 95%! There is still a long way to go before we see a loophole free experiment. This is not just a question of detector engineering. The detection rate we are talking about is the detection rate which belongs to the entire process of generation, transmission and detection. ] (]) 13:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

:: Here's another recent refutation of Bell: http://www.m-hikari.com/astp/astp2010/astp17-20-2010/geurdesASTP17-20-2010.pdf. It's by J.F. Geurdes: CHSH and local hidden causality, Adv. Studies Theor. Phys., Vol. 4, 2010, no. 17-20, 945-949. I think the wikipedia article shouldn't refer specifically to Thompson and to Christian's work, but should mention that several such works appear per year and are usually refuted quite quickly if not completely ignored. If you want a specific example you could consider the Hess and Philipp case - authors are (were) respected US scientists, even members of the academy of sciences, article published in PNAS, mentioned in Nature, reached several quality newspaper science pages. Refuted within a year. Now forgotten. ] (]) 14:08, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
The facts are quite different from how Gill has presented them here. In truth, Gill is well known among my colleagues to be an incompetent mathematician and a fanatical supporter of Bell’s theorem. He did not know anything about geometric algebra when he came to Oxford to learn from me. He still does not know much about it. As a result, Gill has made a very foolish and silly mistake in his criticism of my one-page paper. What is more, he had not bothered to read any of my other papers on the subject before he attempted to criticize the one-page summary of my model. Sadly, even after I have explicitly pointed out his mistake to him here http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.2529, he remains incapable of recognizing it himself. The reason, again, has to do with his total lack of mathematical background for understanding my model. The error he has made is trivial. It is in Eq.(2) of his preprint. This equation is an incorrect counterfeit of the Eq.(4) of my one-page paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.1879. Instead of recognizing his silly mistake, however, he has been aggressively trolling me, both in private emails as well as on various blogs and websites that have been discussing my work. I find this quite disturbing, and do not consider it to be a proper behavior of a professional scholar. Some of my colleagues have confirmed, however, that they have had to endure similar harassment form him when they challenged Bell’s theorem in the past. Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:28, 29 March 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: One wonders who are Christian's colleagues, and how competent in mathematics they are. The concept of "fanatical supporter of Bell's theorem" is also fascinating. How can an elementary mathematical argument need fanatical supporters? It stands on its own feet. It's the metaphysical consequences, and the physical interpretation of the mathematics, which have been intensively discussed for close on 50 years now, and no doubt will continue to be the subject of debate for many years to come. <p> My short paper analysing Christian's one page paper does not enter into that debate. It just points out what appears to me to be an elementary mathematical error in Christian's one-page paper. That paper is self-contained, and does not contain any advanced mathematics at all. Christian now says that what I (and all scientists with whom I have discussed this matter, including David Hestenes, the "father of geometric algebra") think is an error, is in fact a daring new postulate. <p> It's interesting that a daring new postulate is introduced without any mention of the fact, in the middle of a subtle computation; and it's interesting that the daring new postulate contradicts early made, and used, postulates. I think the reader can be excused from imagining that it was an accidental error, but if was deliberate, then things are even worse. <p> Anyway, my personal opinion about this work is of no significance at all for wikipedia. So far, as far as I know, no researchers have followed up on Christian's work, none of his papers have been published, though a collection of papers has just appeared as a book. (By the way, I have read them all, and moreover I have studied the standard work on geometric algebra: Doran and Lasenby's "Geometric Algebra For Physicists". I recommend it highly). ] (]) 11:43, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

On the FQXi blog Gill now admits that he has lied in his paper. In his paper he claimed that his equation (2) is my equation (4). He did this either because of his incompetence in mathematics, or deliberately and calculatedly to derail my research program. The simplest explanation is that his equation (2) is a silly mistake because he is an incompetent mathematician. One only has to read his abstract to recognize this fact. Further lies (or at least assertions without evidence) appear in what he has writen above. He is abusing the good name of David Hestenes whom he has never met or spoken to. I, on the other hand, have been in touch with David since 2008, and have discussed my paper with him only a few months ago at a FQXi conference. Gill writes that I have introduced “a daring new postulate” “without any mention of the fact.” This is yet another lie. What Gill calls "a daring new postulate" is explicitly stated right at the start of my model, both in my one-page paper and my very first paper, which was written in 2007. The same postulate in the first paper is stated in two different ways. First in words: "Thus, in essence, the intrinsic freedom of choice in the initial orientation of the unit pseudoscalar mu would be our "local hidden variable."" And then as an equation (cf. eq.(15) of the 2007 paper):

mu . n = +/- I . n = L { n_j B_j }.

This is the same as the equation

B_j(L) = L B_j

appearing in the one-page paper. Gill does not recognize that these two equations are one and the same equation, because he does not know anything about geometric algebra.
I am amazed how shamelessly Gill is able to spread such a lie. One has to wonder what could be the real motivation behind spreading such a patent lie. Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:00, 30 March 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: Joy Christian is the author of a self-published book and a large number of unpublished e-prints claiming he has disproved Bell's theorem. This means there is a major conflict of interest with him being an editor of a wikipedia article on Bell's theorem. <p> Now, regarding independent corroboration of the importance and reliability of Christian's work: David Hestenes, the "father of geometric algebra" has gone on record as saying that Joy Christian's derivation of the singlet correlations within Christian's "model" is based on an elementary algebraic mistake (a careless undergraduate sign error). Half a dozen authorities in quantum information theory and in foundations of quantum theory have gone on record as saying that Joy Christian's model is built around a fundamental conceptual error (see arXiv.org). The arXiv.org preprint by Florin Moldoveanu contains a compete list of references and a meticulous analysis of the error in Christian's derivation, as he has moved it about, like a bump over the carpet, over the years. Moldoveanu's paper has been the subject of intensive discussion on various recent internet blogs. No single academic authority has taken the side of Christian, whie a large number of "heavyweights" have taken the side of Moldoveanu. ] (]) 15:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

What Gill writes above is a shameless fabrication of facts and propaganda. There does not exist a single peer-reviewed criticism of my work on Bell's theorem. Moreover, contrary to the claim made by Gill, not a single expert in geometric algebra, let alone David Hestenes, has criticised my work on record. I have refuted and completely debunked all of the so-called criticisms of my work -- especially that by Gill. His preprint is full of silly mistakes, which are quite easy for anyone to see. All one has to do is to read his abstract to see how incompetent a mathematician he is. His criticism of my work, as well as that by Moldoveanu, is based on a classic straw-man strategy. Since they are unable to find a single problem with my work, what they do is replace my model with a counterfeit and then refute the counterfeit with a great pomp. The details of my rebuttal can be found in this preprint: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.2529, and on this FQXi blog: http://www.fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1247. A compete account of my refutation of Bell's theorem (and much more) can be found in my recently published book: http://www.brownwalker.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1599425645. It is quite sad that Gill resorts to such propaganda when he should be actually acknowledging his own mistakes. -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:20, 28 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I can personally confirm the above propaganda tactics taken by Richard Gill against Dr. Christian. What is more, Gill has been consistently proven wrong in many online debates with Dr. Christian, myself and others. All this for a theorem that has never been shown to be true emperically. The quantum experiments that many take as validation of Bell's theorem only show that quantum mechanics does in fact violate the inequalities. They do not actually validate the theorem itself physically. Bell's theorem is really junk science with an almost religious following. Richard Gill is obviously one of its fanatical worshippers. He wouldn't be paying this much attention to Dr. Christian's work if it wasn't a real threat to the established paradigm. It is a real threat because Dr. Christian's model is a valid local realistic counter-example to Bell's theorem. Fred Diether 22:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: Seems that the article on Bell's Theorem has now been hijacked by Joy Christian (]?) and his henchman Fred Diether (]). Both of whom have a big conflict of interest on ths topic. Neither of whom have made any contributions to wikipedia except on this artcle. I hope other Misplaced Pages editors will act to prevent their vandalism. ] (]) 18:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

::Do you have diffs to show who they are? If so, a conflict of interest template could be added to the article. ] (]) 18:55, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

:: In fact it is Gill that is trying to hijack this article after he has been consistently proven wrong. The conflict of interest is all based on Gill's wrong interpretations. The article was fine before he started changing it. ] (]) 00:01, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

::: Over the last years a various editors have attempted to remove references in the article to unpublished work of dubious importance. This is reverted every time by User Interintel, who I imagine is Joy Christian himself, author of one of those references. See Interintel's Talk page. FrediFizzx is the pseudonym of Carl F. Diether who is moderator of the news groups sci.physics.foundations. Diether is a long time supporter of Christian's work, and has strongly supported it on sci.physics.foundations. As you can see above, Joy Christian himself has been writing abusive comments about my own work on this Talk page. I was one of a number of scientists who exposed the conceptual and algebraic errors in Christian's work, which has received just about zero point zero recognition in the academic world. <p> I have recently been involved in various blog debates concerning Christian's work so it can be thought that I too have a conflict of interest in this matter. <p> It is up to the community of less directly personally involved wikipedia editors to come to editorial conclusions on whether or not Christian's work deserves any mention in the article on Bell's theorem. Please look at the wikipedia editing history of InterIntel and of FrediFizzx. Their only contributions to wikipedia are connected to the promotion of Christian's work. In my opinion there is a strong conflict of interest in their being active on these pages. ] (]) 07:34, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Gill claims that he was one of a number of scientists who exposed the conceptual and algebraic errors in my work. This is an absurd and laughable claim by a demonstrably incompetent mathematician. It is well known to the community that he is an extremist in the debate over the validity of Bell's theorem. Any competent mathematician has to read only his abstract to recognize that he has no qualification to understand my work, which requires highly sophisticated knowledge of physics and philosophy in addition to advance mathematics. Gill has obviously taken the law in his own hands by removing published and cited work from the article and by making false accusations based on pure fabrication and speculations. He is deliberately curtailing open scientific discussion by removing published references that go against his own ideology and undermine his own work. He is the vandal here, who began by calling names and removing published references from the article. -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:45, 30 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Please, the talk page is to discuss the article, not to attack people (this goes for everybody here). The sentence that seems to spark the edit war is "However, no principle of physics can ever be proved absolutely beyond question; some theorists argue that experimental loopholes or hidden assumptions refute the theorem's validity, though most physicists accept that experiments confirm the violation of Bell inequalities." The issue seems to concentrate on the reference: {{cite arxiv|eprint=1103.1879|author1=Joy Christian|title=Disproof of Bell's Theorem|class=quant-ph|year=2011}}. I would argue that arxiv papers, which have not undergone peer review, have no place in an article about a well-established result (see ]). -- ] (]) 10:49, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

The paper in question, "Disproof of Bell's Theorem". arXiv:1103.1879, is published in my peer-reviewed book, http://www.brownwalker.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1599425645, and is widely discussed on the Internet. My work has also been cited in several *published* articles (at least two of them in Physical Review). The book itself is only just published, and citations to it will undoubtedly follow in due course. Gill’s motivations for doing what he is doing are neither honorable nor justified. For example he claims that the work of Caroline Thompson is a work of a “fringe lunatic.” But her work has been cited and discussed by none other than the eminent professor Abner Shimony (the “S” in CHSH) in his authoritative review of Bell’s theorem in Stanford Encyclopedia. Her work is also cited and discussed in several published papers by none other than Arthur Fine, another well known authority on Bell’s theorem. The claims of Gill are thus demonstrably false and motivated purely by his desire to take the law in his own hand. -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:25, 30 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::: An earlier wikipedia editor, not me, referred to Joy Christian as a "fringe lunatic". It is true that a survey of opinions in the quantum foundations community would probably confirm that that is a widely held view today. On the other hand, Joy Christian himself writing on Scott Aaronson's blog recently spouted personal abuse of a far worse nature at anybody who dared to criticise him. <p>Participating in the discussion here, I wrote that I had met and talked with Christian several times and that he's a nice guy, but in my opinion badly mistaken. <p>About Caroline Thompson, who had a nice detection loophole model exhibiting the singlet correlations, no one at all wrote here that she was a "fringe lunatic". Her work did not have much impact and for obvious reasons has little interest. The possibility to used biased selection of which photons to measure in order to recreate quantum correlations in a classical way has been widely known since Pearle, 1970. ] (]) 07:12, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

::The publisher gives no indication of any meaningful peer review and it appears to be a publisher of fringe works, i.e it appears to be a small time self-publishing company (I notice they mention selling books on the order of a thousand) or a vanity press. ] (]) 13:35, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

What appears to you must be right, then. That is all what matters, of course, for the open and balanced scientific presentation in the article. I wonder, however, which publisher has published all the wild claims against my work made by Richard Gill. It must be Physical Review Letters, or the Oxford University Press, I suppose. -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:43, 30 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Since none of Christian's arXiv.org papers ever made it through peer review, I doubt that any of the half dozen papers on arXiv.org exposing conceptual and mathematical errors therein will ever be even submitted to journals. <p> I proposed to Christian that we jointly submit his "one page paper" (2011) and my critique thereof (2012), both on arXiv.org, to a serious journal on foundational issues in quantum physics. He declined, saying that arXiv.org already constituted a publication. So I'm afraid my own criticism is only supported by its actual content, together with my personal academic credibility, and by the support (on various Internet fora) of various authorities in the field. As fas as I know, no single authority has found errors in my analysis. ] (]) 07:28, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I did not decline saying that arXiv.org already constituted a publication. I declined saying that Richard Gill’s preprint is so full of sophomoric errors that there is no way I will let my work appear anywhere near his preprint. In any case my work of the past five years is now published in a peer-reviewed book: http://www.brownwalker.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1599425645. What is more, ALL of Richard Gill’s erroneous and unpublished arguments against my work have been comprehensively debunked, many times over, not only by me but also by several other knowledgeable people on the FQXi blogs. I myself have given a systematic refutation of his misguided arguments in the following two papers: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.2529 and http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.5876 <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:28, 31 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Certainly, I am not the only one who is saddened by the low level of debate that this important subject has attracted. I do think, however, it bears noting that the widely held position expressed by Sabri Al-Safi " ... there aren't any reputable practising academics who doubt Bell violations ..." is not the issue. The issue is whether there exists a constructive alternative to the conclusion that no mathematically complete physical theory can be both local and realistic. Another confirmation of Bell-Aspect doesn't settle the issue, because the proof of Bell's theorem is nonconstructive. If one claims to have a constructive framework to match all elements of mathematical theory to all elments of physical reality, it deserves more than a mere counterargument from authority. ] (]) 14:07, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

:Actually, the issue is ''precisely'' whether there are reliable secondary sources on this topic. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, documenting things that are already "well-known", not a physics blog. ] (]) 14:25, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

It is well known that Bell's theorem is experimentally validated by Bell-Aspect. It is also well-known that the proof of Bell's theorem is nonconstructive. Your position is like saying that because it's well known that the Earth is flat, we should ignore any evidence or conjecture (e.g., how ship's masts appear first on the horizon, Eratosthenes' estimate of the Earth's circumference, etc.) for a spherical Earth. ] (]) 14:46, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

::Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a scientific institute, we are here to document sources etc that are already out there. We do not aim to create original thought in any form. ] (]) 14:57, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Dude, I get that. I'm a strong supporter of Misplaced Pages (and open access in general), both in article contributions and financial contributions. I recognize the difference, however, between subjects that are in dispute and those that are not. Don't preach to me.] (]) 17:08, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

== Classical simulation is possible and simple ==

BenRG told:
''"The important thing is that the quantum statistics of the measurement outcomes can't be simulated by any classical algorithm applied independently to the two subsystems that are measured. It can be simulated by a classical algorithm that gets to choose the outcome for both subsystems together, but you can set things up such that that requires faster-than-light communication."
''

Completely wrong.

Just transmit correlated data to two remote computers.

If both perform the same algorithm on these data (correlated), then the results must be strongly correlated, and the Bell inequality is sometimes violated.

The important thing: each computer has also its own local data, which allow you to change the results of calculations.

As you can see we have here an exact copy of the EPR-type experiments.

Bell's Theorem is a typical product of a layman - lack of experience in mathematical statistics and theory of computation. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: A brief and elementary logical analysis and a reference to the law of large numbers explains why the Bell (CHSH) inequality will almost never be violated if the number of simulated outcomes is large enough and if the measurement settings in each wing of the experiment are chosen randomly, again and again, one new pair of settings for each new pair of measurements. ] (]) 13:17, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

: PS here's a reference to a published paper by myself which explicitly considers networked computer simulation. It uses some decent mathematical statistics and some elementary but uncontroversial ideas about computation. http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0110137.pdf ] (]) 13:26, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

: The discussion by 83.27.38.107 is however important because it corresponds to how many laypersons and even many science journalists see the situation. The correlations themselves are not problematic at all. It is the relation between the correlations which is difficult to understand. You have two different possible measurement settings in each wing of the experiment. So you have four different correlations, one for each pair of settings (one choice on each side). The point is that QM allows three of those correlations to be extremely large and positive, while the remaining one is extremely large and negative. This is what is amazing. How can the measurement set-up in one wing of the experiment know what measurement is being performed on the other side? In one case it should be trying to get a strong positive correlation, in the other case a strong negative correlation. It is almost impossible to get across in a non-technical way why it is extraordinary that it can be done with photons or electrons, but not with "ordinary" things like ordinary computers (which have been talking to one another in the past, but which are disconnected from one another just before they are given a measurement setting and forced to deliver a measurement outcome). ] (]) 14:20, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

: Here's another reference with important modern insight: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0508016 . The existence of quantum correlations without the possibility of using them for signalling implies that measurement outcomes *must* be random (nondeterminism). And several other nice equivalences and/or implications. ] (]) 14:24, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

---
Experiments EPR-Bell type are completely meaningless.

Interference of two streams can be more easily achieved in practice - using the interferometer. The result is the same.

QM correlations are also calculated from the waves, not points - photons.

Tale of the EPR paradox:
Alice and Bill decided to calculate their mutual distance, without communication.
Alice measures her coordinates 'a', while Bill his - 'b' ...

In this world there are relationships between events, bodies, systems - immediate and from any distance.

Quantum mechanics are blind, because even such trivial matters did not recognize.
QM - a device to fool students. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 01:25, 17 March 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: There is a nice challenge to anyone who thinks they can do a classical simulation at http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/official_quantum_randi_challenge-80168, the quantum Randi challenge. It's clear that anyone who succeeds in doing such a simulation will become immediately world famous. ] (]) 11:46, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Nothing is more telling, that one completely misinterprets Joy Christian's framework, than lending support to Vongehr's ill-conceived "quantum Randi challenge." The classical limit 1/2 for a two-player "guess what I'm thinking" psychic game is identical to the quantum limit of Bell-Aspect, but completely irrelevant. Measures made at a time are discontinuous and not reversible in either case, while Christian's framework is based on a measurement function continuous from the initial condition; in other words, from a continuous range of input values. ] (]) 14:32, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

We REALLY need to overhaul this. So much has been attached to this article that it now says the equivalent of "Bell is very important" and "Bell is trivial". All references to loopholes were intended years ago to be moved such that there would be separate articles on "Bell's Theorem", "Tests of Bell's Theorem", and "Loopholes in Tests of Bell's Theorem" in order to give proper weighting to these somewhat independent topics. Perhaps we can take a cue from some of the work performed in Scholarpedia on the subject, without some of the slant added in the last half of the article there.] (]) 20:41, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

: I agree. But it's a very hard job. I will take a look at Scholarpedia. ] (]) 16:47, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

: The scholarpedia article is very comprehensive, precise ... scholarly. <p> Also, it does promote a particular point of view. Nothing wrong with that in the context of Scholarpedia: one asks experts to write about a subject and what they write will fit in with their point of view. The authors are named, they are chosen for their good reputation. On wikipedia it would be a problem, where it is not the "authority" of the authors (editors) which counts, but of their sources. <p> For example: I noticed the following statement: "in order to explain (without violation of locality) the fact that the outcomes will be perfectly anti-correlated if the experimenters both measure spin along the z-axis, one has to assume that these outcomes are pre-determined". This is easy to say, but why is it true? It certainly is hard to imagine that the outcomes are not pre-determined, but could that be rather a reflection on how our brains work, rather than on physical reality? I think this comes down to the choice between "realism" and "locality". The author(s) of the Scholarpedia article prefer to abandon locality than realism. Indeed, the main author is a proponent of Bohmian mechanics. Nothing wrong with that, but it is only one of a number of options. ] (]) 17:24, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

== Inaccuracy regarding expectation of EPR ==

The article included the following:

<blockquote>"Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen expected their proposed experiment to agree with the predictions of quantum mechanical theory;"</blockquote>

This is inaccurate, so I removed it. In the EPR paper, they wrote:

<blockquote>"This makes the depend upon the process of measurement carried out on the first system, which does not in any way disturb the second system. No reasonable definition of reality could be expected to permit this."</blockquote>

In a letter to Max Born in 1947, Einstein further criticized the concept of entanglement:

<blockquote>I cannot seriously believe in because the theory cannot be reconciled with the idea that physics should represent a reality in time and space, free from spooky actions at a distance.</blockquote>

] (]) 02:22, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

== References to Thompson, Christian, Kumar removed ==

I removed the literature references to the Bell critics Caroline Thomson and Joy Christian. Thompson's article uses the detection loophole to exhibit a local realist violation of Bell's theorem. It is not a notable article and is pretty much forgotten. Pearle (1970) already drew attention to the detection loophole and in Bell's later articles he was careful to describe experimental protocols which would prevent the detection loophole (selection bias) from giving an alternative explanation of the observed results. Joy Christian got some publicity with an article in the New Scientist in 2007 when he first announced his disproof of Bell's theorem, but since then none of his papers was published in mainstream journals and his work is not cited by anyone, except perhaps by a few writers who exposed the many errors in his work. ] (]) 13:23, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Here is the material I removed: "However, no principle of physics can ever be proved absolutely beyond question; some theorists argue that experimental loopholes or hidden assumptions refute the theorem's validity (Mark Buchanan, 2 November 2007, Quantum Untanglement: Is spookiness under threat? http://www.ipod.org.uk/reality/reality_quantum_untanglement.asp, New Scientist; arxiv, eprint=1103.1879, Joy Christian, Disproof of Bell's Theorem, 2011; Caroline Thompson, The Chaotic Ball: An Intuitive Analogy for EPR Experiments, 1996, Foundations of Physics Letters, 9, pages=357–382, arxiv quant-ph/9611037) though most physicists accept that experiments confirm the violation of Bell inequalities (Kumar, 2009, Quantum, Icon Books, page 350)."

] whose activitity on wikipedia is restricted to this article, has put it back again twice already. I've asked him/her to discuss this on the Talk page here, but no response. The third time we shall be able to invoke the three-revert-rule. He wrote "Undid revision 494472046 by Richard Gill who is personally motivated to derail the ongoing and lively scientific debate on local realism. The references he is trying to delete are both published and being widely discussed across the Internet." Personal criticism like this does not belong on wikipedia. Moreover, it is incorrect, since personally I am enthusiastic to support (and contribute to) the ongoing and lively scientific and popular debate on local realism. However, wikipedia is an encyclopedia whose task is to summarize existing accepted knowledge, not to promote controversial points of view. The three references I deleted are not notable references on the topic of Bell's theorem. Thompson's model is a pretty variant of the detection loophole. It is not widely cited and has not been followed up. It's 15 years onld. A popular scence magazine article from 2007 is not a notable scientific publication. Joy Christian's many preprints on arXiv have never been published in peer reviewed journals. ] (]) 19:20, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


I also removed the material "The conditions Bell imposes on any "reasonable" ] have been criticized in the work of Masao Nagasawa and Jörg Schröder. (Nagasawa, Masao and Jörg Schröder, "A note on the Locality of Gudder's Hidden-Variable Theory", Chaos, Solutions & Fractals, vol. 8, no. 11, pp. 1793-1805, 1997; Nagasawa, Masao, "On the locality of hidden variable theories," Lecture Notes at the University of Zurich, 1995.) In addition to demonstrating that Bell's conditions are overly restrictive, Nagasawa has proven that local hidden variable theories are possible by developing such a theory.(Nagasawa, Masao.''Stochastic Processes in Quantum Physics''. Basel: Birkhauser Verlag: 2000.)". These papers are hardly ever cited and the author's ideas have not entered into the mainstream. ] (]) 15:29, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

: joy Christian himself, and Fred Diether (one of Joy Christian's truest supporters), continually undo all revisions to this article which demote the importance of Christian's work. Maybe somebody else who cares about this article will take action. I'm going on vacation. ] (]) 18:15, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

== Possibility to reject realism rather than locality ==

I added at the start of the article remarks to the effect that Bell's argument does not necessarily lead us to reject locality. We might equally well choose to reject realism, which is of course actually a kind of idealism: we add to our mathematical representation of the world outcomes of experiments which were not performed, alongside of those which were performed. Note that Bell himself drew attention to this possibility in his famous "Bertlmann's socks" article. It is nowadays espoused by a number of authorities, for instance, N. Gisin. (References should be added). ] (]) 15:53, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

:Also, superdeterminsism could be mentioned. Bell himself also mentioned this possibility, but he rejected that as unphysical. However, this idea has recently been revived by 't Hooft and it is discussed in ] (]) 17:35, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

:: I agree it could be mentioned. 't Hooft says that at the Planck scale we cannot choose between experiments and hence that at this scale superdeterminism is an option. However he seems not to realise that in Bell type experiments we are not at the Planck scale and superdeterminism requires exquisite coordination between the physical processes which select measurement settings (which might be classical coin tosses or a list of pseudo random numbers) and those which determine measurement outcomes in a distant and completely different kind of physical system. And this exquisite coordination allows nature exactly to simulate the non-locality (if that is what you want to call it) which we see in these special experiments, while at the same time not manifesting itself in any other way. I think the general consensus is that superdeterminism is not considered a serious option. <p> But as an earlier editor mentioned, the whole loophole discussion should be concentrated in a separate article. The detection and the communication loopholes are practical issues - they are practical and hopefully surmountable problems of experimental procedure. The superdeterminism loophole is a purely metaphysical loophole. It can never be ruled out, but the concensus is that invoking this loophole is essentially denying the possibility of learning from nature by experiment. It's not a constructive approach to physics. ] (]) 19:29, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

== undue ==

The controversial claim sourced to a "ipod.org.uk" and arxiv and a paper with only one citation is undue for the article. ] (]) 18:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
: I agree. Joy Christian himself (user Interintel?) or his close supporters (Fred Diether:User FrediFizzx) continually put this reference back after I removed it. They do not enter into discussion here, I'm getting tired io this (and am going on vacation, and arguably have a conflict of interested too, since I recently posted a critique of Christian's work on arXiv.org. It has been well received). ] (]) 18:58, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

:Definitely agree it is totally undue for an article like this. When their stuff has been peer reviewed and got some people to comment on it then there would be grounds for inclusion. ] (]) 10:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
::The New Scientist article could however I believe be used in a popular science reception section, like cultural impact. Perhaps there's a way of putting those together. I think it gives weight for that even if the original paper doesn't yet have enough weight for the theoretical challenges section. It just doesn't have any place in the overview. ] (]) 10:42, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

:::I might have a look at it and try make what I can out of it. ] (]) 10:47, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

::The ] section above now contains evidence of a book and peer review. Together with that outside interest shown by the New Scientist that sounds like plenty enough to go into the theoretical challenges section I think. ] (]) 13:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

:::I checked the book out, I see no indication of peer review and the publisher seems an odd choice for a scientific work. Other books in the "pure science" section include this book by the former President of the Para-psychological Association. ] (]) 13:31, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

::::In fact it appears to print mostly fringe theories, here is another on "universal relativity". I think it's rather doubtful there is any meaningful peer review. It looks like vanity press . ] (]) 13:34, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
:::::It certainly does look that way. The stuff just hasn't been accepted by a science journal and he can't be counted as an authority by ]. Scrub what I said about the book then unless he can produce something about this 'peer review' being far more than the publishers correcting spelling mistakes. As far as its future reception is concerned I believe ] is relevant. ] (]) 14:24, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
{{od}}
I think we're dealing with this problem in the wrong way. One option is not to include Joy's stuff here which we tried to do (and perhaps with some enforcement action we can succeed), but another option is to include a few sentences in the article that gives the right perspective on this issue. We could e.g. say that while almost all physicists have given up on local determinstic theories, there are a few attempts made to develop such theories. Then we can refer to 't Hooft, Christian etc., perhaps only in a footnote. That none of these attempts get any traction within the scientific community also as to be mentioned. ] (]) 19:34, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

::It simply wouldn't be fair to refer to Christian because it's completely undue in this high priorty article. Gerard 't Hooft on the other hand would be due something due to his large notability, if we can do it right that is. I might do some searching and see what I can dig up. ] (]) 20:26, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps one of you fine people can suggest a respected peer-reviewed journal that would ever publish a theory that disproves Bell's theorem. I don't think there is one that you might call respectable. Dr. Christian's model is a valid theoretical challenge to Bell's theorem and there is in fact a section titled "Theoretical Challenges" in the article. So what is the problem? ] (]) 01:52, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
::Because it's undue as has already been pointed out, I suggest you re-read this section. Your editing pattern suggests a close association with Christian. ] (]) 09:33, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The “problem” has nothing to do with my work, or my publisher. They are both perfectly fine and respectable. Clearly there was no problem with them for months and years until the three published and widely discussed references were arbitrarily removed by Richard Gill for personal and non-scientific reasons. The references which were perfectly fine for months and years then all of a sudden became unacceptable. That is the problem. The problem of perception, brought about by the unhealthy interference by Richard Gill. -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:53, 31 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Separate issues:
:* Are user:Interintel and IP 86.148... in Birmingham the same? That needs to be established. Only one account should to be used, per policy.

:* Joy Christian must stop using terms such as "unhealthy interference" to refer to well intentioned edits by users such as Richard Gill.

:* It appears that some ideas discussed here are subject to ] in any case, as well as WP:Due and can be excluded on that basis.

:* A potential solution was suggested by Count Iblis, and may be suitable, in that a brief mention is made to the existence of fringe/extreme views among a very small number of people, without significant elaboration. That would fall under policy, and any attempt to expand them further could then be viewed as a breach. I should, however, say that given that these are fringe views and not "minority views" they may also be ''totally'' excluded if ] is used to decide that.

In view of the history of this page, if this continues, procedural remedies to enact blocks on Interintel and related IPs may be suitably sought (e.g. per ], etc.) to end this situation. ] (]) 07:22, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing “well intentioned” about the edits of Richard Gill. You do not know the history of the dispute between him and me or the full details of the facts about his intentions. In any case, ALL of his erroneous and unpublished arguments against my work have been comprehensively debunked, many times over, not only by me but also by several other knowledgeable people on the FQXi blogs. I myself have given a systematic refutation of his misguided arguments in the following two papers: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.2529 and http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.5876 -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:30, 31 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Saying you think somebody's work is flawed is fine on Misplaced Pages especially when reasons are provided. Saying they are not well intentioned is a personal attack. Please see ]. ] (]) 09:34, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

:This is irrelevant, the content is undue and should not have been included. It doesn't matter if your theoretical arguments on Bell's theorem are valid or not, that is not what is at issue here. The issue is that your views have not been picked up by reliable sources and do not have sufficient ] for this article. ] (]) 09:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I am afraid I cannot agree. The paper in question, "Disproof of Bell's Theorem". arXiv:1103.1879, is published in my peer-reviewed book, http://www.brownwalker.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1599425645, and is widely discussed on the Internet. My work has also been cited in several *published* articles, at least two of them in the Physical Review (not to mention its citations in some lesser known journals). I have given invited talks about my work on several occasions during the past five years. The book itself is only just published, and citations to it will undoubtedly follow in due course. So, again, I cannot agree with your comments. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 09:54, 31 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:You are going in circles, being in arxiv doesn't give something due weight, nor does a self published book by a publisher with no evidence of peer review. I also suggest you stop pushing for content when you have a strong conflict of interest like this. ] (]) 12:43, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

::I agree with IRWolfie. In any case, if and when results are "directly published" in Physical Review and elsewhere the nature of the situation will change. That has not happened yet. If/when that happens Misplaced Pages can address that. For now, that has not happened yet. ] (]) 13:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I am no longer “pushing for content.” Although I have provided more than sufficient evidence for the scientific validity of my content, it is abundantly clear that -- just as he has done elsewhere -- Gill has succeeded in creating an atmosphere of mistrust against me and my work. Thus there is no point in my “pushing for content.” However, I do wish to register my observation here that my work is being treated unjustly and with bias. You may see whatever grounds you may see, I myself see no grounds for rejecting my content other than preconception and prejudice. -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:06, 31 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Actually Misplaced Pages runs based on its policies. None of the editors here is being paid to take sides, and they aim to improve the quality of the encyclopedia. Regarding the "validity" of your work, based on the ] policy, that is in fact outside the scope of Misplaced Pages discussions. Inclusion is not based on the determination of validity, but "verifiability", per WP:V. The easiest (and indeed the only) way to include your views in Misplaced Pages is to have them published in a source such as ]. If/when your work is published in Physical Review, the situation will change and it will become a "minority view" and per policy should be mentioned if it is significant. That has not happened yet, and as of this writing it is subject to ] issues. If Bell is/was incorrect, I am sure Physical Review will understand that and publish your work, and we can resume this discussion in 18-24 months with that paper in hand. ] (]) 13:33, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

::You are missing the point. Physical Review (or any other journal like PR) will never publish any kind of disproof of Bell's theorem because of extreme prejudices that exist. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be neutral and should always include balanced arguments for controversial issues. ] (]) 23:30, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

:::No, I am sorry, Misplaced Pages does not work that way. If almost all major scientific journals "refuse" to publish a paper, that paper is automatically within ] territory. By virtue of your statement, you have labelled the disproof of Bell's theorem a a WP:Fringe item, and hence it can not be included until it is published in ] sources (e.g. Physical Review) and receives citations in mainstream sources to deal with ] issues.

:::Believe me, I know the policies. Misplaced Pages can not be used as a "launch pad" for ideas rejected by mainstream scientific publications, per ]. And should you continue to argue this issue again and again, you will be entering ] territory, and there are remedies for that. There are Misplaced Pages policies for avoiding repeated talk page arguments against consensus, and I feel that point is within reach. I think you need to get your ideas published in ] journals, and stop using Misplaced Pages to promote them before that happens. Else your access may be blocked per ]. That is Misplaced Pages policy. ] (]) 00:26, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

== WP:COIN thread ==

FYI: I posted on ] about this page. ] (]) 15:58, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

== Removal of talk page content on libel grounds ==

Talk page content has been removed on libel grounds. I fail to see any libel. I have said on ] that I believe if a person feels they are being maligned it is far better normally to identify what they think the problem is. I believe there have been multiple incidents of user contributions on this talk page being removed. If they are of this libel type then perhaps 86.148.6.36 should consider raising it at ] to get action to stop the editor doing it. If they continue such removal without some justification or appeal for admin action then perhaps it is time to block 86.148.6.36 instead. ] (]) 09:27, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

:: If any of the content which I wrote about the scientific history of Joy Christian's work, and about the author's academic credentials, was untrue and/or libelous I should like to know, and I will correct it. <p> Regarding the content: Bell's theorem is close to 50 years old now. The metaphysical implications of Bell's completely elementary mathematical results have been vigorously debated all these 50 years. When a new-comer comes along with claims that John Bell's assumptions were fundamentally wrong, his or her work and his or her credentials are both going to be investigated closely. Since 2007, half a dozen researchers, including several rather eminent persons, placed papers on arXiv.org expressing total disagreement with Christian's rewriting of the mathematical expression of local realism. More recently, Moldoveanu and Gill independently placed papers on arXiv in which they argue that Christian makes elementary mistakes in his algebra. On several internet blogs, a whole string of authorities (among them Adrian Kent, Scott Aaronson, Davd Hestenes) expressed agreement that Christan's work is both (meta)-physically misguided and mathematically flawed. They all came up for severe personal abuse by Joy Christian and to a lesser extent by Fred Diether. Too obscene to be repeated here, but this certainly got a lot of influential people rather pissed off, which was the source of quite some amusement to those at the receiving end. <p> Regarding Christian's academic credentials, his book and his arxiv.org papers suggest he is affiliated with Perimeter Institute and/or Wolfson college Oxford and/or unnamed Oxford University physics departments, but no one has been unable to find any evidence of such affiliation at all. Some years ago he received a grant from FQXi.org, and subsequent to that, a number of mini-grants. The original grant application was presumably subject to some peer-evaluation. Mini-grants are allocated by lottery among applicants who are previous grant holders, without any peer evaluation procedure.] (]) 15:33, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

:::This is all irrelevant to why we put content into the article or not. Reasoning should be based on wikipedia policies and guidelines. ] (]) 15:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

::::Yes, I agree. I am sorry Richard Gill, but the arguments you are presenting are not going to affect the Misplaced Pages page. The determining factor, per ] is not your assessment of another editor, but the appearance of the views in ] sources. As stated above, given that the material has not been published in sources such as Physical Review, that and ] are sufficient for excluding it from the page. My suggestion would be to focus on the ] appearances of the claims rather than the scholarly affiliations of the author. I think you can avoid further brouhaha by avoiding the material Dmcq deleted and let us move on until Physical Review Letters publishes a paper that states Bell was incorrect. That would be the best use everyone's energy. ] (]) 15:44, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
:::::I would further argue that if the paper is uncited or does not have many citations once published then it still probably has no due weight (This is a very notable, high importance topic). ] (]) 16:11, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

::::::Partly so, but we are about to get into a heated agreement on the exclusion of the views now, so I will stop. ] (]) 16:15, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

::::: Yes, I do understand this perfectly well. I was not trying to assess a wikipedia editor, but the work of a scientist called Joy Christian on Bell's Theorem. Coincidentally, a wikipedia editor of the same name has been resisting attempts by a succession of editors to remove the citations of this work. Which we did precisely on the grounds of these standard and fundamental Misplaced Pages principles. (I admit: I don't know if User Interintel and the non-registered editor who calls himself Joy Christian are the same person or not, but it seems a reasonable guess, and neither Interintel nor J C have denied it).<p> Soon we are going to be discussing whether or not to refer to Gerard 't Hooft's "fringe" support for super determinism, and how. This will also involve some discussion of the impact of that work, and the notability of that work. Reporting published criticism of Gerard 't Hooft's work, or mentioning his academic status, would not constitute criticism of a Misplaced Pages editor of the same name, if there were one.] (]) 16:26, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

::::::We don't critique on wikipedia, we defer to reliable sources for critiques, we base decisions of what we do on the existence or absence of reliable sources. ] (]) 16:34, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
::::::: Agreed. *We* don't *do* critique. I don't *do* critique here on J C's work. But we do frequently have to report critique by reliable sources of other reliable sources. I have been reporting on the publicly stated and publicly argued opinions of notable scientists on J C's work. In my opinion this discussion is actually quite superfluous, the case seems to me to be clear cut. However, not everyone agrees yet. One editor thinks that mention by a science journalist in New Scientist in 2007 is evidence of notability. Another, Joy Christian himself, is accusing me of being on some personal vendetta and spreading malicious rumours. So I think I'm justified in pointing out that it is not just one mean guy who is trying to suppress that work. ] (]) 17:25, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
:::Just to clarify your actions on the actual page have been fine -- removing fairly fringe things sourced only to arxiv papers. You don't, however, need to debate the scientific merits of material which clearly fails ] on the talk page though -- it's not like you're going to convince that guy anyways, and the rest of us know how to follow guidelines. Cheers ] (]) 15:57, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

:A separate agf/npa issue was also addressed on that IP's talk page. Is this the same as the other editor? No response was provided, but you may want to ask for a check on that, given that the other user was also advised as such. ] (]) 12:59, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Since Richard Gill continues to spread malicious rumours about me and my work, let me point out my credentials here rather than refuting his libellous claims. The latter I have already done on a FQXi blog: http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1247. Here are my credentials:

Dr. Joy Christian obtained his Ph.D. from Boston University in Foundations of Quantum Theory in 1991 under the supervision of the renowned philosopher and physicist Professor Abner Shimony (the “S” in Bell-CHSH-inequality). He then received a Research Fellowship from the Wolfson College of the University of Oxford, where he has remained affiliated both with the college and a number of departments of the university. He is an invited member of the prestigious Foundational Questions Institute (FQXi), and has been a Long Term Visitor of the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, Canada. He is well known for his contributions to the foundations of quantum and gravitational physics, including quantization of Newton-Cartan theory of gravity, generalization of Special Theory of Relativity to incorporate the objective passage of time, and elimination of non-locality from the foundations of quantum physics. A partial list of his publications can be found here: http://arxiv.org/find/all/1/au:+Christian_Joy/0/1/0/all/0/1 <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:35, 31 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::The decision to include content or not in this article does not reflect badly on you. You do not need to defend yourself. The content merely does not meet the guidelines and policies we have for inclusion. ] (]) 16:38, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

::: The claim by 86.148.6.36 (who claims to be Joy Christian) that one Richard Gill is spreading malicious rumours and making libelous claims ought to be removed from here, it seems to me. ] (]) 17:25, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

:::: I think both personal-level statements need to be removed, yours and the IP. This is an encyclopedic topic of importance and notability. Personal like/dislike issues have no place here. Please remove your personal comments about Christian, and we will ask the IP to remove the others, so we can move on. The discussion should focus on the technical merits and ] issues, not these diversions. ] (]) 19:14, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
::::: Please let me know (on my talk page) which comments by me you consider "personal" and I will gladly remove them. Personally I prefer common sense and open sharing of information to lead to resolution of conflicts on Misplaced Pages. I believe I have only brought relevant, objective, unbiased, verifiable information to this discussion. ] (]) 13:50, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

== Seeking consensus to exclude the disproof of Bell's theorem ==

<div class="boilerplate metadata discussion-archived" style="background-color: #f5f3ef; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion has concluded. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify this section.'''</span> The result of discussion was: '''exclusion'''.

Given the statements by Fred Diether above regarding the refusal of ] (and other mainstream sources) to publish a disproof of Bell's Theorem, I am seeking consensus to exclude it per ], until it is published in ] sources, at which point ] may be used to determine its suitability. Comments will be appreciated, and a post on ] or WikiProject Physics may also be suitable. ] (]) 00:36, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

:Thank you for pointing out the "Catch 22" of Misplaced Pages's policies. Dr. Christian has given his qualifications above and is in fact an expert on the subject of Bell's theorem. If Misplaced Pages does not allow qualified responses to a highly controversial issue, which Bell's theorem certainly is, then they are just contributing to the extreme prejudice that does in fact exist about this topic. Dr. Christian's papers on arxiv.org and his monograph (book) do not fall into the class of fringe theories because he is well qualified in this topic. If an author can't get a paper published in a respectable peer-reviewed journal because of the extreme prejudices that do exit, then a competing alternate viewpoint can never gain traction. I say let the readers make up their own minds. Misplaced Pages should not be a judge of this; the readers should be. Thank you. ] (]) 01:02, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

:None of Dr. Christian's work on this subject is a ], and to the best of my knowledge there are not any RS that discuss his work on the matter. Does not merit inclusion in the article. ] (]) 01:27, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

:: Again, you are missing my point. Because there does in fact exist extreme prejudice about any disproof of Bell's theorem, Dr. Christian's work on this topic could NEVER be considered a reliable source for inclusion because it is virtually impossible to have a respectable peer-reviewed journal accept it. Thus, this issue must be decided on Dr. Christian's qualifications only. IOW, Dr. Christian is the reliable source himself. Perhaps the inclusion of his viewpoint could have some kind of disclaimer on it? ] (]) 01:52, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
:::I'm afraid you are missing the point. Misplaced Pages is an ]; it is ]. &nbsp;--] 04:00, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
::::I know exactly that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and thus should *always* present a balanced view on the content of a particular topic. There is a section in the article for Theoretical Challenges. Dr. Christian's model is a valid Theoretical Challenge and should be judged fairly based on his qualifications as an expert on Bell's theorem. Which he is. ] (]) 05:15, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::Do you have a citation to an independent reliable source stating that Dr. Christian's model is a valid Theoretical Challenge? Without such a source we can not assign any weight to that opinion. &nbsp;--] 06:48, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
* Actually, I do not see any options here. As the theory has never been published by any reputable journal, it is a fringe theory. As it, being a fringe theory, dis not attract enough attention by the scientific community, neither physicists not information theorists, via reliable sources, it is a marginal fringe theory and can not be mentioned in Misplaced Pages articles. The policies are very clear on this point.--] (]) 05:44, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

::I guess you didn't read my points above. You won't find any challenges to Bell's theorem in any reputable journals because of the extreme prejudice against such theories. The only reason they are allowing 't Hooft's theory in the Theoretical Challenge section is because he is a Nobel Laureate. Dr. Christian's work was funded partially by the Foundational Questions Institute which I consider a respectable organization. While they don't particularly endorse or not endorse his work, they did in fact fund it. Now, if what you are saying is true, then the whole section for Theoretical Challenges ought to be removed then Misplaced Pages is not presenting a balanced viewpoint on the topic. Dr. Christian's theory does help Misplaced Pages to maintain a balanced view on this topic. Furthermore, all the removals that Gill did should be put back because now the topic has a very unbalanced viewpoint for an encyclopedia. ] (]) 06:27, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
::: What you say is absolutely irrelevant. It does not matter whether anybody was funded by any type of organizations if they did not manage to publish. The argument that all journals have prejudice is exactly what all fringe theorists use, and there is nothing new here. But if you want to continue in this direction, well, Gill is a full professor in a reputable university exactly in this field, whereas Christian, to my knowledge, is not.--] (]) 06:54, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

::::What I said is not irrelevant. FQXi recognizes that Dr. Christian must be an expert on this topic or else why would they have funded him for research on this? Dr. Christian did publish a monograph of his work that was partially funded by FQXi. A reliable source can be the author himself according to Misplaced Pages policies. Gill is a professor of mathematics; not physics. This is a physics topic and should not really be edited by a non-physicist. Dr. Christian is a physicist and is in fact an expert on this topic according to the funding he received from FQXi. ] (]) 23:41, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
::::: I am sorry, but you registered a single-purpose account in order to promote fringe theories here and did not even read the policies. Please do it first.--] (]) 23:53, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

:::(ec) As explained before, it is totally irrelevant who funded the research. What we need is independent reliable sources. In other words, independent reliable sources is what we need. <u>Sources</u>. <u>Reliable</u>. <u>Independent</u>. By that, we mean sources. Not just any sources, but sources that are both independent and reliable. Sorry, but that's the policy. No sources, no go. &nbsp;--] 06:59, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
:::: Of course the key issue here is the issue of independent reliable sources. Still I would like to mention a number of problems with Fred Diether's comments. First of all, it is only his opinion that Christian's work is ignored because of "prejudice". It's my opinion that a correct disproof of Bell's theorem would immediately be published by any prestigious physics journal. To give an example, PNAS published a proof by Hess and Phillip some years ago. It was discussed in Nature and in newspapers all over the world. A year later, or so, a mistake was found in the proof. <p>Secondly, Diether claims that Christian's work is ignored. But this is not true. He spoke in conferences around the world about his model. I was at one. About 6 scientists, many of them with strong international reputations, wrote papers on arXiv soon after Christian's, arguing that his model was misguided. More recently, two others have posted papers in arXiv, arguing that it also contained major mathematical errors.<p> "Prejudice" is a pejorative term. Remarkable claims need remarkably strong evidence. Imagine a little known mathematician attempting to publish paper after paper which argued that the square root of 2 is actually a rational number, because Pythagoras did not take account of the fact that the rational numbers can be embedded in the quaternionic number field. I think that work would be ignored. The mathematical part of Bell's theorem is of similar mathematical difficulty to the usual proof that root 2 is irrational. The prejudice that someone who claims to have found a counterexample must be a crackpot is a justly held prejudice. The ongoing debate in the foundations of physics concerns the physical and metaphysical implications of the simple mathematical facts. Christian's model attempted to alter the terms of that debate, by changing the mathematical context. His proposal got attention and was debated. It got attention despite the justified prejudice: but he was after all a student of "the" Abner Shimony and he had a visitors position at "the" Perimeter Institute on the basis of earlier promising work on quantum gravity. It got debated and it got rejected. Anyone who is interested in why, can read the papers on arXiv.org discussing his model. They did not get submitted to journals because Christian's papers, some of which were submitted according to his former home page at Perimeter Institute, did not get published.] (]) 07:42, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
: Since Richard Gill continues to spread malicious and libelous rumors about me and my work and calls me names (he does, just check out how he started this discussion), I am compelled to point out that ALL of his arguments against me and my model have been systematically and thoroughly debunked many times over, not only by me but also by several other people on the FQXi blogs. See, for example, the following three documents: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.2529 , http://fqxi.org/data/forumattachments/JoyChristian_FAQ.pdf , and http://fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/Richard_said.pdf . As for the paper in question, "Disproof of Bell's Theorem", http://arxiv.org/pdf/1103.1879v1.pdf , is published in my peer-reviewed book, http://www.brownwalker.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1599425645, and is widely discussed on the Internet. My work has also been cited in several *published* articles, at least two of them in the Physical Review (not to mention its citations in some lesser known journals). I have given invited talks about my work on many occasions during the past five years. The book itself is only just published, and citations to it will undoubtedly follow in due course. On the other hand ALL of Richard Gill’s misguided, erroneous, and unpublished arguments against my work have been comprehensively debunked, many times over, not only by me but also by several other knowledgeable people on the FQXi blogs. I myself have given a systematic refutation of his misguided arguments in the following three papers: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.2529 , http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.5876 , and http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0703244. -- Joy Christian

I urge the Misplaced Pages community to remove Richard Gill’s slanderous name claiming from many of his posts. As you can judge from my qualifications I listed above, his name calling has no justification whatsoever. -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:45, 1 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I have advised Richard Gill on his talk page to avoid personal comments. The issue should be the content based on ] and ], not the messenger. ] (]) 08:17, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

===Votes for the exclusion of the disproof of Bell's Theorem===
Please provide votes below, with a "brief" one or two line summary of your rationale. Detailed discussion is in the section above.

* '''Support exclusion'''. Due to the lack of any significant ] sources, as discussed above. In any case Fred Diether has stated that WP:RS sources refuse to publish the view, essentially accepting the ] characterization. ] (]) 08:09, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
* '''Support''' due to my arguments stated in the above discussion.--] (]) 08:17, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

* '''Support exclusion'''. It seems clear that there are no independent reliable sources for the disproof. That's the long-established Wikpedia benchmark. Expertise and qualifications carrty no privileged status in Misplaced Pages. No point debating the pros and cons of these policies, or calling us prejudiced - that's just how it is. ] (]) 08:22, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support exclusion'''. I would also go further, it looks like Dr. Christian ] and Richard Gill ] have been engaged in long ranging dispute across multiple website over this topic. This is evidenced by a number of arXiv papers mentioning each other , , and . This makes both authors far to close to the subject to consider them neutral per ] "Do not edit Misplaced Pages to promote your own interests". Due to this closeness a ] for both editors seems appropriate.--] (]): 09:05, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

:*I would be against a topic ban. I think Misplaced Pages needs experts and users such as Richard Gill should not be exiled. However, I have advised Gill on his talk page to stop personal comments and focus on content. This issue can be resolved based on ] in any case. ] (]) 09:08, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

* '''Support exclusion of Christian's material'''. Christian's work has received no meaningful support in the years it has been out (I first noticed his 2007 article). It has not been published in any meaningful scientific journal. It is one of dozens of purported disproofs I have seen, all of which claim some error in Bell which others (besides the author) cannot fathom. After the similar wars here with Caroline Thompson around 2005-2006, I have advocated that presentation of Bell test loopholes and the like (such as the class of purported disproofs) should be placed on a separate Misplaced Pages page, and referenced from the Bell page a single time. That way there is a place to present them. But they definitely should not be discussed in the main page whatsoever. Else that has the effect of giving unwarranted support to essentially unpublished work that directly contradicts scientific consensus. If you look at Citebase, the only references to his work are from his own papers. Ignoring whether Christian's work is meaningful or not, this is not the place for it until it achieves scientific consensus. I personally consider it a sad professional step that an author would stoop to hijacking an important topic such as Bell's Theorem in the attempt to attract more attention to work which is being rejected elsewhere.--] (]) 14:59, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
* '''Oppose exclusion'''. Dr. Christian has respectable references that can validate that he is an expert on this topic and is eminently qualified to present a valid alternative viewpoint to make this article more balanced. The readers should be deciding this issue; not us or Misplaced Pages. Gill on the other hand is a mathematician and Bell's theorem is about physics and specifically about the physics of EPR-Bohm scenarios. Dr. Christian is a physicist. Why is a mathematician vandalizing this article? The article had a much more balanced viewpoint before Gill started removing valid content. I don't see that Gill has any papers on this topic in Physical Review either. ] (]) 15:53, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
* '''Oppose exclusion'''. The web and internet are prima facie "sources of note." It militates against the noble ideas of open access and free inquiry to ignore and/or suppress references to public debate where the weight of serious scholarship has been demonstrably applied in good faith. Recent examples of open review without "official" publication include Perelman's proof, and the great number of free science and mathematics lectures posted by credentialed academics both famous and moderately known. Censorship rights belong to no one. It does not violate Misplaced Pages rules to honestly report scientific disputes that are supported by expert argument and referenced by "sources of note" regardless whether an editor personally agrees with the source. Misplaced Pages editors are not qualified to administer peer review.] (]) 23:26, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

::No, I am sorry, the statement that "The web and internet are prima facie sources of note." misses Misplaced Pages policies by a . You need to read ]. The web is not a WP:RS source, based on Misplaced Pages policies. ] (]) 01:26, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
:::I'm not stupid, and I don't have to be read to. "The term 'published' is most commonly associated with text materials, either in traditional printed format or online." If Misplaced Pages editors are not adept enough at distinguishing authoritative publication from internet chatter, then they should be replaced by search bots that copy and paste. It is you who are light years behind realizing that the publishing game has changed. For good. Continue on your present course of self-arrogated censorship, and you condemn Misplaced Pages to quick obsolescence.] (]) 11:31, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
::::History2007 adequately debunked your bald assertion that "the web and internet are ''prima facie'' sources of note" (emphasis mine), although it's not really relevant. No sources have so far been presented that count as ] ] substantially addressing Christian's work and the responses of the mainstream scientific community. The publication medium is not particularly important, but we are not permitted to present primary-source material (as most of the content on the web are, regardless of its "prima facie" status as a "source of note"). That is considered to be ] and is not permitted under Misplaced Pages policies. ] (]) 14:04, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
The only "debunking" here is of Misplaced Pages's claim to be a democratic institution. It is contradictory to, on the one hand, give lip service to that value and on the other hand arbitrarily decide what publications and media are legitimate. I gave you a striking example of authoritative web-published material, which you proceeded to conspicuously ignore. I have been a very outspoken defender of Misplaced Pages's value -- both in front of academics who would prevent its use as reference material, and individuals who doubt the veracity of self-organized communications. You can bet that I will be considerably more circumspect of my defense in the future. ] (]) 15:36, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
:Well, good for you. Regarding Perelman's proof, Misplaced Pages would have been correct not to use that as a source, absent supporting ''secondary sources''. That would have been equally unacceptable at the time of it's publication, and there have been many discussions about this very example. ] (]) 16:12, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
:: ] should take a look at the Misplaced Pages articles on ] and on the ], and read about the roles of primary, secondary, and tertiary sources in Wikipeda articles, ]. ] (]) 17:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Richard, it's highly presumptuous on your part to imply that I am unfamiliar either with the history of the Poincare Conjecture, or Misplaced Pages's role in reporting it. It's equally presumptuous of the editors to imply that I am innocent of how Misplaced Pages works. What's missing here is debate and discussion of how self organized media differ from the convention. Misplaced Pages cannot on the one hand claim as History 2007 states, that "Per Misplaced Pages policies a group of 12 year old students can vote and a Nobel laureate can be outvoted. That is how the 'free market' economy of Misplaced Pages works..." and then turn around and institute a tyranny of the majority. History 2007 understands neither a free market economy nor the nature of a democratically self-organized institution. One does not encourage knowledge sharing -- nor free trade -- by imposing negative feedback on the system by fiat. Let the system evolve naturally by *both* positive (out of control, self reinforcing) feedback and negative (controlled, self limiting) feedback and one finds the system always returns to an equilibrium point. I do not lend my moral and financial support to Misplaced Pages to have petty tryants impose their will. That destroys the whole premise.] (]) 12:11, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
:Let me say that History does not speak for me (much less for all of Misplaced Pages, as you seem to suggest) when he suggests, in your view, that Misplaced Pages is a tyranny of the majority. It has long been accepted practice that in establishing consensus through votes like this, it should be on the relative strengths of the arguments on each side that consensus is ultimately decided. This assessment is usually based on which side most convincingly builds their case from our ]. In fact, it is possible here for a ''single'' 12 year old to argue a case sucessfully against a Nobel laureate, to say nothing of a group of them. Relative credentials do not matter in such a debate: the credentials of a Nobel laureate do not ''automatically trump'' the credentials of a precocious 12 year old. History's comments were directed against demands that credentials, rather than the relative strengths of arguments based on the five pillars, be given priority in this discussion. That demand has no basis in policy, and was rightly rejected. ] (]) 13:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
::Thank you for making my point. Just as science is not decided by consensus (majority opinion), neither does consensus apply to disputed science in any encyclopedic medium, including Misplaced Pages. Local realism (or its impossibility) is not settled science in the sense of, say, relativity or even quantum mechanics per se. If the article on Bell's Theorem is going to deal with the metaphysical implications of the theorem in any way, it must honestly include the other side of the issue. Otherwise, cut the article down to Bell's inequality and its validation alone. Even then, however, it must be noted that the mathematical proof of the theorem is entirely nonconstructive. ] (]) 17:11, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
{{cot|Extended debate between parties, but not a vote as such}}
::: I have done my best to avoid personal comments. It's true that I have published a number of papers on Bell's theorem and related topics, and have been involved in discussions the last few months on several internet fora concerning the *content* of Bell's theorem and of Christian's critique thereof. I have recently written a short paper, posted on arXiv.org, which analyzes one of Christian's works and points out what appear to me to be serious errors of elementary algebra. These findings have been corroborated by numerous experts in quantum information and mathematical physics and quantum foundations: to name a few, Scott Aaronson, Adrian Kent, David Hestenes. Please note that I was only the most recent of a series of editors who have tried to re-balance the article on Bell's theorem, which by common consensus has given undue attention to minority and fringe views. After a recent edit by me was reverted without discussion by user Interintel, I attempted to open a discussion with him/her on his/her talk page and on the article talk page. There was no response. Further edits were immediately reverted. Check the history page of the article, and the talk page of user Interintel. Note the banners on the article calling for the attention of experts. Note that I reported immediately that it could be argued that I have a conflict of interest concerning the removal of the references to Christian's work, and drew attention to this edit war on the wikipedia maths and physics portals. ] (]) 12:36, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

::: Since Richard Gill continues to spread malicious and libelous rumors about me and my work and calls me names (he does, just check out how he started this discussion), I am compelled to point out that ALL of his arguments against me and my model have been systematically and thoroughly debunked many times over, not only by me but also by several other people on the FQXi blogs. See, for example, the following three documents: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.2529 , http://fqxi.org/data/forumattachments/JoyChristian_FAQ.pdf , and http://fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/Richard_said.pdf . As for the paper in question, "Disproof of Bell's Theorem", http://arxiv.org/pdf/1103.1879v1.pdf , is published in my peer-reviewed book, http://www.brownwalker.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1599425645, and is widely discussed on the Internet. My work has also been cited in several *published* articles, at least two of them in the Physical Review (not to mention its citations in some lesser known journals). I have given invited talks about my work on many occasions during the past five years. The book itself is only just published, and citations to it will undoubtedly follow in due course. On the other hand ALL of Richard Gill’s misguided, erroneous, and unpublished arguments against my work have been comprehensively debunked, many times over, not only by me but also by several other knowledgeable people on the FQXi blogs. I myself have given a systematic refutation of his misguided arguments in the following three papers: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.2529 , http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.5876 , and http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0703244. -- Joy Christian
{{cob}}

*'''Support exclusion''' although this !vote is unnecessary as we can't locally make an exception to fundamental policy. ] (]) 09:23, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support exclusion''' It's undue fringe material doesn't belong on this high importance article. Per ] and ] even if it were published: ''plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship''. ] (]) 09:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

::Maiori forsan cum timore sententiam in me fertis quam ego accipiam -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:26, 1 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::], "perhaps you pronounce this sentence against me with greater fear than I receive it", burnt at the stake in 1600 for his belief in a kind of many worlds theory, more precisely: ]. ] (]) 18:36, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

* '''Oppose exclusion''', because Bell’s theorem is junk science (as can be readily seen from this single page document http://arxiv.org/pdf/1103.1879.pdf ), and someone has to point out to the taxpayers that Bell’s theorem has led to a colossal waste of public funds, not to mention quasi-religious fanaticism. -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::Let me offer a guess that you want to oppose exclusion, given your previous comments. ] (]) 12:18, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
::Yes, thanks. I mean I support inclusion and oppose exclusion. -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:45, 1 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::Well, you can just change your vote to ''Oppose exclusion'' to be clear. ] (]) 12:50, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

* '''Abstain''' due to perceived personal conflict of interest, but my opinion is that we are here discussing manifestly fringe material, which cannot be verified through independent reliable sources. ] (]) 12:42, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

* '''Comment'''. We should not cite Joy Christian's self-published work (]). There has of course been a long tradition of criticism of Bell's theorem from the fringes of physics. If mention of this is to be included in the article, it should be sourced to a reliable ''secondary'' source documenting such criticism and the replies of the scientific mainstream (],]). Otherwise, including criticisms sourced to the primary literature is considered to be ], and is forbidden by Misplaced Pages policy. ] (]) 13:59, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support exclusion''' unless some RS actually show up. ] (]) 14:19, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support exclusion''' per the Misplaced Pages policies, without prejudice to future inclusion should this work somehow attain notability. &nbsp;--] 14:43, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' If there has been "a long tradition of criticism of Bell's theorem from the fringes" as Sławomir Biały says above, this fact should be at least stated, perhaps in the "Cultural impact" paragraph. Details should be added if WP:RS can be found. ] (]) 15:01, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

::Yes, and once this issue calms down, attention should focus on a general clean up of the article anyway, and if properly sourced Sławomir's suggestion should be followed. As is, the article is double tagged and some sections are reference free. I have not even checked it in any detail, since I walked over here by chance a day or so ago because Wolfie asked about the reliability of a publisher. As a side remark, much of this debate effort over the past many months could have been put to better use to clean up related articles such as ] which are not going to win any prizes this week. So once this is over, I would encourage the participants to start a 30 day clean up effort on this and related articles, to celebrate the end of this debate. ] (]) 15:34, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

:::Great idea, this article needs serious attention. Not sure what it will take to get that accomplished, as it may require coordinated effort due to the complexity of the job. I just noticed the comments and references to Nagasawa et al. This has no place here any more than Christian's work does.--] (]) 16:26, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
:::: I also tried to remove those comments and references. That edit was also repeatedly immediately undone by user Interintel, who declined to enter into any discussion of this either here or on his/her talk page. ] (]) 18:23, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::No worries, the community is now aware of this page and that type of edit pattern will be subject to policy-based limits. Please wait for this discussion to end, then suggest a "list of suggested improvements" for the page. Let people discuss them, and a solution will emerge. Misplaced Pages policies actually work in these types of cases. I suggest also making a "list of suggested improvements" for the surrounding pages such as Principle of locality, etc. so the whole article series can be cleaned up, for it is an important encyclopedic topic. ] (]) 18:57, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support exclusion''' - The repeated claims that Christian's views are being suppressed by the mainstream does not in any way suggest that Misplaced Pages should discuss them - quite the contrary in fact. We aren't here to settle arguments or balance things out in the "real world". We're here to report what the mainstream view in the real world actually is. Any suggestion that we should be seeking to actively change the real world mainstream view in that manner is entirely inappropriate to Misplaced Pages's goals. That Christian is "an expert" is also not relevant - experts go off on weird tangents and play devil's advocate and just plain come up with bad ideas all the time - we don't report on those things until/unless they gain considerable (albeit minority) traction in the community. As usual, ] is waved in our faces by the pro-fringe minority - and again, we have to point out that NPOV requires us to balance ''differing mainstream views'' and NOT to give ] weight to the extreme minorities...especially minorities-of-one. The article on ] doesn't have to report ] hypotheses with equal weight compared to the view that the earth is in fact an oblate spheroid. ] (]) 16:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

* '''Support exclusion''' for fairly obvious reasons: RS, undue weight, POV, SELFPUB, FRINGE, etc. ]<small> (] | ])</small> 17:43, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support exclusion''' essentially for same reason as CRGreathouse. In particular for such an important topic nothing goes in WP without reliable sources, i.e. here a publication in a renowned peer reviewed journal.--] (]) 21:34, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support exclusion'''; if the statements made above that the papers are only referenced in Joy Christian's own papers (and Gil's papers discrediting Joy's), then there are absolutely no reliable sources. '''If''' Christian were a published expert <u>in the field</u>, then his papers '''might''' meet ], but all of his papers are ]. — ] ] 06:33, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

'''Consensus achieved?''' As stated in the section below, Fred Diether's request for a new poll, may be seen as an acknowledgement of the fact that the discussion above has reached the conclusion (13 votes to 3) that Christian's item should be excluded. And there is uniformity in the rationale provided by those supporting exclusion. I will hence move to declare consensus in the above discussion, so we can move on and an effort to improve this article (and some surrounding pages) can take place without unending debate. Given that there is no debate here regarding the ], any further energy spent here will be energy not spent on other improvements. Unless there are clear indications to the contrary, we should close this discussion soon and move on. ] (]) 07:49, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
:Yes, consensus does seem to have been reached by the Inquisition to exclude truth and continue to promote junk science instead at the expense of the taxpayer. Bell’s theorem is dead. Long live local realism. – Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 08:30, 2 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::Fine, and thank you for being upfront about consensus. Hence, based on that statement, this discussion can be closed. ] (]) 08:44, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
{{div col end}}
::: I agree - Misplaced Pages's guidelines are clear here. It's over. ] (]) 15:56, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

== Let's have another poll. How many supporting exclusion of Dr. Christian's work are physicists? ==

I would like to know how many of you supporting exclusion of Dr. Christian work on Bell's theorem are actually physicists? And are experts on Bell's theorem? I suspect that Dr. Christian is the only physicist involved in this current dispute. The article on Bell's theorem is a physics article and Bell's theorem is specifically about the physics of the EPR-Bohm scenario. Editing of this article should be done by a professional physicist that is an expert on Bell's theorem. Is there any other qualified physicists here on this talk page besides Dr. Christian? ] (]) 05:59, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:In response to Fred Diether, that is not how Misplaced Pages works. Per Misplaced Pages policies a group of 12 year old students can vote and a Nobel laureate can be outvoted. That is how the "free market" economy of Misplaced Pages works. You may want to try ] which does not have a free market model. They have less than 20,000 articles vs the 4 million of Misplaced Pages. But then you would need to convince the experts there to be included. And some of them may have the habit of looking through Physical Review. But please feel free to try that. In any case, I think this suggestion was in effect an acknowledgement of the fact that in the section above clear consensus has been reached for the exclusion of Christian's item. I will hence move to declare consensus in the above discussion. ] (]) 07:35, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:The suspicion is wrong (and not all that relevant as History2007 points out above). ] (]) 15:07, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:Your request to find out who here are physicists shows a deep misunderstanding of the underlying issue here. It's not about whether Christian's physics are solid or not - it's about Misplaced Pages policies on non-mainstream views and especially the policies of ] and ] - both of which clearly apply here. You freely admit that mainstream physics is locking out Christian's work - and that's why we're excluding it from the article. What you see as an injustice that needs correcting, Wikipedians see as a fact about the real world that we are mere observers to. It's not our job here to right wrongs of an intellectual nature. ] (]) 16:01, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:As others have stated, it's a moot point, but I will gladly out myself as a physicist. ] (]) 17:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
::And me too. ] (]) 13:47, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:I think ] is relevant here, and Misplaced Pages is pretty hot on forbidding attempting outing of dogs or whatever are tapping away out there. ] (]) 22:34, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

== Time for a compromise for "disproof" dispute ==

I think it is time to attempt to work out a compromise for this dispute. Which I am sure that Misplaced Pages would most appreciate a compromise of some kind so that all parties might be happy and not attempt more edit warring in the future. I would suggest that mention of Dr. Christian's work be allowed with a disclaimer of some kind that it is not mainstream opinion. ] (]) 06:12, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:As Sławomir Biały stated above, if suitable ] ] sources of note are found to provide a review of the opposition to Bell's Theorem they may be included later, provided a number of conditions regarding ], etc. are met. But that is a separate issue from the discussion above, which has now reached consensus on exclusion. ] (]) 07:40, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

::No “opposition to Bell's Theorem” is needed. Bell’s theorem is dead. All one needs to do to see that is to be able to understand the four or five lines of calculation in this paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.1879 -- Joy Christian <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 08:56, 2 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::In any case, Joy Christian was upfront about it, accepted the consensus in the above discussion, and it has now ended. Thanks. ] (]) 08:45, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

I would actually support mentioning someting about this issue, but I doubt that would be something that Joy or you would like to see in this article. The bottom line is that the judgement of the physics community is negative about these attempts to find a local deterministic framework for QM. Then that has to be the context in which anything about this is going to be mentioned. I believe that we should say something along the lines of the physics community having given up on local determinsitic theories, that there are only a few attempts made in this direction, and that these have been judged to be flawed or otherwise problematic. Then one can mention Joy and some others in the footnotes with some comments.

By saying this, one illustrates better that such attempts only have an infinitesimal amount of support. If we don't say anything, a reader may still have read about a discussion involving Joy somewhere else, and think that the Wiki article hasn't been updated to include this. ] (]) 15:28, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:I agree. No mentioning anything will make the reader wonder given that web searches produce some results to that effect. But the context for it has to be that the vast majority of physicists do not buy it. The issue remains proper sourcing of course and the guideline to follow is ] if that type of overview statement is to be made. And I think if a "list of suggested improvements" is made now, that should fit into a restructuring of the article. ] (]) 15:37, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:: I agree, too. One could mention Accardi's "chameleon" model (built on the detection loophole), Hess and Phillip's micro time model (built on an error in their notation), de Readt's event simulation modes (built on the detection loophole and on the coincidence loophole), Caroline Thompson's chaotic ball model (built on the detection loophole), Joy Christan's model (built on an algebraic error and on redefining the definition of correlation). But I think it is more important to get the first part of the article clear and clean. People have doubts because they're not convinced by some lines of calculus and formula manipulation. I think the article needs some more modern, more direct, more intuitive proofs of Bell's theorem centering around counterfactual definiteness and simple logic. A 12 year old can understand a good proof of Bell's theorem. But not the original or traditional proofs. <p> But first of all we need to cut away a lot of the dead wood which has accumulated over the years.] (]) 09:46, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:::Actually the way I usually do cleanups is to improve the peripheries first, then the main topic. The article on ] is no gem and needs work, as does ], etc. Once those are in really good shape the top level can refer to them. So my suggestion would be to clean those surrounding articles first, build a basis and then rework the main. However, as you said there is plenty of deadwood that just needs to be zapped here. ] (]) 09:56, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:We've had the debate - we've tested the consensus - the results are clear. No compromise is necessary - and indeed, any kind of compromise would also fail to get consensus because the grounds that almost all of the "'''Support exclusion'''" people gave is that Misplaced Pages does not permit this kind of fringe view to clutter up articles about mainstream science. The couple of "'''Object to exclusion'''" !votes talk only of physics and "fairness" - which really aren't relevant to the discussion. I understand your frustration - but the issue isn't with this article - or about the people who are telling you "No" - it's about the core policies here at Misplaced Pages. You can try to take up the cudgel at WP:FRINGE or WP:UNDUE - but those are well-established principles at the core of Misplaced Pages and they are unlikely to change. However, the debate here is over - and it's time for you to ]. ] (]) 16:09, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, you all can continue your posturing or take this issue to mediation, arbitration or whatever but I do believe Misplaced Pages would prefer to see a compromise attempted first. This section is about what Christian and Gill will accept to stop their warring. Comments that don't pertain to that are not necessary. How many here have actually looked at the content of the article that is in dispute? Here it is,

"However, no principle of physics can ever be proved absolutely beyond question; some theorists argue that experimental loopholes or hidden assumptions refute the theorem's validity," Reference 10 points to Dr. Christian's one page "disproof" on arXiv.

So the question is what will Christian and Gill accept for changes to that to stop the warring? Let's work on that. Thank you. ] (]) 16:32, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:No, I am sorry Fred Diether, it does not work that way. As SteveBaker said the discussion took place, consensus was reached, and J. Christian agreed that consensus was achieved. In other words: the party is over. Should you continue to argue against consensus, the issue of ] will arise. Regarding your reference to edit wars, let me assure you that Misplaced Pages does have policies to quickly deal with edit wars and unending discussions against consensus. ] (]) 16:40, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

::I am sorry, but you missed Dr. Christian's sarcasm. He did not accept consensus. I am sure Misplaced Pages would in fact prefer a compromise to this dispute so that it is settled for all time. Or take it to mediation or arbitration if you wish. The fact is, compromise is most always a better solution. Enough said; let's get to work on a compromise. ] (]) 17:03, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:::Consensus was reached. Clearly. Now, I left you a note about ] regarding "repeating the same argument over and over again, without persuading people." Please avoid that. ] (]) 17:31, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
::::We should take Dr. Christian at his word; otherwise we might rationally assume that his papers were parody.
::::However, if we could find published commentary on previous (failed) attempts to disprove Bell's Theorem, that would be appropriate to include. — ] ] 17:34, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

This suggestion of a "compromise" is laughable. It's as if someone wanted to cite a paper in the ] article that claims to prove that pirates cause global warming. When the community responds overwhelmingly in an RfC that the work has not been discussed in any reliable secondary sources, the proponents then demand the addition of a line like "Some individuals have suggested that pirates cause global warming, although this is not a mainstream opinion". Not only is such a statement expressly forbidden by the ] policy (we commit original research with our assertion that it is "not a mainstream opinion"), but even this small mention places a gross overemphasis on a thoroughly fringe viewpoint (]). ] (]) 00:58, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

::I agree. The lager point is that if the door is opened to allowing ] to be compromised here, eventually statements like the pirate example will come in elsewhere and then it is just a question of time before Elvis is found to be alive, and living a block from WMF headquarters. ] (]) 08:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

* '''UPDATE:''' To make it more clear why compromise for this dispute is a goood idea here is an update that I probably should have put at the very start of this section. I contend that since Dr. Christian is an expert physicist on Bell's theorem as evidenced by funding from FQXi (FQXi is not going to fund someone that is not an expert) on this very topic that Dr. Christian himself can be considered a reliable source for the disputed content according to Misplaced Pages policy. And for the same reason the disputed content is not fringe. So no Misplaced Pages guidelines or policies are being violated in my viewpoint of the dispute. Compromise is usually a good solution to have a stable article with a well balanced viewpoint. Thank you. ] (]) 04:12, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
*] states that, self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. There are none; arxiv.org and Dr. Christian's self-published book are not "reliable third-party publications". — ] ] 04:49, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

::Bell's theorem is pretty old and there is not much new content that could be written and published about it other than an alternative viewpoint or Bell test experiments. And we both know that due to extreme prejudice that exists for this topic that it is totally impossible for any kind of "disproof" to get published in a peer-reviewed journal of stature. Dr. Christian has been published in Physical Review D on another topic and in other journals. The Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines are just guides and don't really have to be taken to the "letter of the law" in every single case. And should not be in this case. I just don't understand why no one wants to even try to compromise on this dispute. It is ridiculous and supports my supposition of extreme prejudice. ] (]) 05:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
:::I am sorry if you feel the whole world is against you. But Misplaced Pages is not the venue for dealing with those grievances. ] (]) 07:45, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
::::I am glad that "Dr. Christian has been published in Physical Review D on another topic"; but on ''this'' topic, I fail to understand his point, see ]. Why do you think that "due to extreme prejudice that exists for this topic that it is totally impossible for any kind of "disproof" to get published in a peer-reviewed journal"? You did not try a ''valid'' disproof yet; and an invalid disproof is naturally rejected; no prejudice. ] (]) 08:25, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
::::"there is not much new content that could be written and published about it" -- really? See . ] (]) 09:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

== Now it is time to get to the real work needed here ==

There is a lot of work needed to get this page up to speed. We all know it is weaker than it should be for a topic so important. I personally plan to work on removing excess that has little to do with Bell itself. In addition, I would like to update some of the references. For example, there is no reference to the important Innsbruck experiment, "Violation of Bell’s inequality under strict Einstein locality conditions".

I take it as a given that this decision applies to other similar attempts to insert fringe and/or unreliable sources on the Bell page. I have removed, for example, the Nagasawa references as being completely unsuitable. So hopefully Interintel will honor the results. I will be reverting any attempt to re-insert them.

My question is about the Jaynes and 't Hooft references. I see no value in the Jaynes comment, other than as a minor historical point. There have been numerous other challenges to Bell which have also been dismissed. I rarely see mention of him except by members of the local realist fringe. 't Hooft is questionable too. Superdeterminism is rightly a concept that could apply to all experiments done, having nothing whatsoever to do with Bell. For example, 't Hooft could similarly assert that relativity does not exist, that instead all tests of the value of c are a result of the initial conditions of the universe and superdeterminism. These authors are respected, but their work on Bell is not considered an important part of the literature. So I would propose to remove these.--] (]) 17:46, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:I would support a mayor rewriting effort by you. Also removal of the text that refers to Jaynes and 't Hooft (I think 't Hooft is only mentioned in one sentence anyway and that could be moved to the main article on superdeterminism we have here).

:The only thing I disagree with is your argument about 't Hooft argument, but then that's not so relevant for editing this article. While I personally don't believe in superdeterminism, 't Hooft does motivate in one of his articles why superdetermistic effects would be relevant. When the counterfactual reasoning involves the same microstates then it's not plausible that a different experimental set-up would not have affected that. You need to start with some well defined class of initial states and then use whatever degrees of freedom are left when considering changes in the present state.
:So, it is wrong to just assume that changing the setting of a polarizer in one place would not have affected the state somewhere else, even though the theory is locally deterministic. Local determinism refers merely to the rules by which you can calculate the future state from the past state. Now, it may be that this objection can be adressed by modifying the proof of some Bell inequalities so that you are always explicitely sampling from a set of physically acceptable initial states (of course, this will involve some assumptions, but then these would be more plausible in the context of such theories).
:Proving 't Hooft wrong may thus well be possible in a reasonable physical setting, but of course not if you take superderminism to mean that "you can always invoke superdeterminism". ] (]) 20:12, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

::I strongly object to David (Dr. Chinese) to edit or re-write this article. He is not a professional physicist and has an extremely strong bias about Bell's theorem. This article needs attention from a professional physicist that would hopefully be neutral. Perhaps Dr. Christian or Gill could help in the enlistment of such a professional? ] (]) 20:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:::My friend, let me break the news gently here: Misplaced Pages can be edited by any 12 year old. That is policy. There are only two requirements for editing Misplaced Pages articles: a heartbeat and a modem. You may really prefer the model used in ], as mentioned above. Yet I should quickly add that the Misplaced Pages model has produced a wealth of knowledge so far - Citizendium has not. In my experience problems are ''not'' caused by the 18 year old editors - they are usually still idealistic, hopeful and constructive. Problems come from discussions like this which ignore that ] The time wasted here could have been put to much better use. Please follow consensus and avoid ] as mentioned before. Thanks. ] (]) 21:23, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

::::Your attempts at intimidation are pretty lame. I suggest that you stop. Please read the very first part at the top of the article. Misplaced Pages is requesting attention for the article from an expert. That means a professional physicist that has peer-reviewed published work about Bell's theorem to me; not from some software developer that has no peer-reviewed published work about Bell's theorem. Nor from some 12 year old kid. Thank you. ] (]) 21:51, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:::::Fred, I am not asking your permission. And I will not respond to your baiting. The pool of folks here is easily strong enough to manage this task.--] (]) 23:04, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

::::::David, sorry that you think I am baiting you; I am not. I am just trying to prevent future disputes from happening and I am suggesting that we comply with Misplaced Pages's request to have expert attention to this article. Your unpublished internet articles do not make you an expert on this topic. Really, compromise is usually the best solution. ] (]) 00:00, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:::::::I'm sorry, but as you've been told, this is not how Misplaced Pages works. We don't check credentials at the door. We are the 💕 that anyone can edit. ] (]) 00:51, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

::::::::It seems that you missed the phrase "I am just trying to prevent future disputes from happening...". Is anyone actually paying attention to the problem here? Is there anyone here that is really interested in making this article stable? It seems to me that the best way is for some kind of compromise to accomplished. Your example above in the compromise section is laughable; it does not apply here however since Dr. Christian himself can be considered a reliable source for this topic given his credentials. So once some of you can get past that and are willing to compromise then we can get this article to be stable and well balanced. Thank you. ] (]) 02:18, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

There are a number of items throughout the article that have been thrown in to undermine the Theorem. Example: "Accordingly, experimental results to date cannot be regarded as definitive proof that locality or counterfactual definiteness must be rejected." (All loopholes have been closed, but not all in a single experiment.) There are also an unusual number of references to the loopholes. In addition, it is not clear that either locality OR realism (aka CD or hidden variables) must be jettisoned. This has the effect of implying a Bohmian type interpretation is a consequence, when it is not. For example: "...if Bell's conditions on local hidden variable theories are correct, then the results which are in agreement with quantum mechanical theory appear to evidence superluminal effects.". I plan to remove those as well.--] (]) 23:04, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

:DrChinese, let me help you out in your noble task. Misplaced Pages is seeking help from an expert to clean up the article on Bell’s theorem. Let me help you and Misplaced Pages to do that. Here are my credentials: I did my PhD under the world authority on Bell’s theorem, Professor Abner Shimony, the “S” in the Bell-CHSH inequality, and learned about Bell’s theorem partly from John Bell himself (yes, from John Bell himself). Another great pioneer of Bell's theorem, the Nobel Laureate Eugene Wigner, was my intellectual grandfather (mentor of my mentor Abner Shimony). Mike Horne (the first “H” in the Bell-CHSH inequality) is my intellectual brother (the first and the most famous physics student of Abner Shimony). Young Lucien Hardy (of the famous Hardy’s version of Bell's theorem) is one of my best friends (I was the Best Man at his wedding). I have known several other Bell pioneers like Greenberger, Zeilinger, and Gisin for many years, since my student days at BU in the 1980’s. I wrote my Master’s thesis on Bell’s theorem in 1985, and PhD thesis in 1991. I can go on, but let me instead mention that I have much wider knowledge of physics, philosophy, and mathematics than the four lines of Bell inequalities. After doing my doctorate in Foundations of Quantum Theory under the supervision of the renowned philosopher and physicist Professor Abner Shimony (the “S” in the Bell-CHSH-inequality), I received a Research Fellowship from the Wolfson College of the University of Oxford in foundations of physics, where I have remained affiliated both with the college and a number of departments of the university. I am an invited member of the prestigious Foundational Questions Institute (FQXi), and have been a Long Term Visitor of the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, Canada. I am well known for my contributions to the foundations of quantum and gravitational physics, including quantization of Newton-Cartan theory of gravity, generalization of Special Theory of Relativity to incorporate the objective passage of time, and elimination of non-locality from the foundations of quantum physics. A partial list of my publications can be found here: http://arxiv.org/find/all/1/au:+Christian_Joy/0/1/0/all/0/1. Considering these humble credentials, would you allow me to help you clean up the article on Bell’s theorem DrChinese? -- Joy Christian

::Joy, you are welcome to edit this article, however, until that time that your theory gets a better reception in the scientific community, we cannot include it (at least not in the way it was proposed). Look, if 't Hooft wanted to include details about his determinsitic models in this article, we would also reject that, so the opposition here has nothing to do about your scientific credentials. ] (]) 02:11, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

::::I agree with Count Iblis, and per ] this repetitive "resume posting" by J. Christian needs to stop, given the consensus above. ] (]) 07:42, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:::It does have everything to do about Dr. Christian's credentials. Misplaced Pages allows an author himself to be a reliable source if they are an expert in the subject. You all are trying to disallow that. Wrongly, I might add. Compromise or I expect this dispute will be going to mediation or arbitration. ] (]) 02:27, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

::::] would not be allowed to rewrite the ] article based on , at least not yet. At most a brief mention might be possible (I would support that), but even that would probably not be supported by most of the editors there. ] (]) 02:55, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:::::You too can knock off the posturing. We both know that compromise can lead to a stable article with a well balanced viewpoint. ] (]) 05:05, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

::::::No, compromise would unbalance the article as has already been thoroughly explained, the material just doesn't belong in this article. I suggest you do not push this issue further due to your clear conflict of interest. ] (]) 12:48, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:::::::From the ] notice board, "Furthermore, accusing another editor of having a conflict of interest in order to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is prohibited and may result in sanctions against you." I strongly suggest that you also back off the posturing. Your intimidation tactics are also lame. I guess we are going to end up at arbitration with this if not willing to compromise. ] (]) 20:28, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
::::::::That is a noticeboard, not a policy page, and in any case that requires an intent to gain an upperhand in a content dispute. Wolfie has made only 2 edits to the page and I have never edited the page, so that angle is closed. And there is absolutely no question that J. Christian has a ]. No question ''whatsoever'', given that he is discussing his own book. And from what I have seen on the SPI discussion, you have your own theories about the subject. Do you, or don't you? In any case, this will probably be on WP:AN before arb, just due to the established consensus that the ideas are ]. Misplaced Pages policies do not allow compromises on ] items. So if you want to compromise that "]", else will go to arbitration, that is a ] - pun intended. ] (]) 20:44, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I too would like to help improve the article in the coming months (am on vacation right now). I think a separate page is needed on loopholes, that is the place where super determinism can be discussed. Not just the proposal, but also the reasons why it is not generally accepted. I think the reference to Jaynes can go. I would like to see mention of Masanes, Acin and Gisin's work http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0508016 showing that no-signalling (no action at a distance) plus non-locality (by which they mean violation of Bell inequalities) implies non-determinism. Regarding secondary or tertiary sources on constant fringe attempts to de-fuse Bell, there is a paper by myself with an overview of fringe theories some years back "Time, finite statistics and Bell's fifth position", http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0301059 . This was published in a conference proceedings volume. Andrei Khrennikov has organized a sequence of conferences on the topic where main-stream and fringe speakers mingled amicably. But I should not play any role in this editing as far as it involves my own work. I'm not aware of other secondary and tertiary work on fringe theories collectively, only individually. ] (]) 08:50, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

* Should we try to write a new lede first? What is now in the article is hardly satisfactory, since a non-involved reader can not understand anything.--] (]) 09:55, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:: Yes, in this case a top down approach may work, given the clutter in the sections below it. And please see my comment above about cleaning up the peripheral articles as well. ] (]) 09:58, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:: I completely agree regarding the overall presentation. The lead is poor, and it never gets better. Many points are repeated, often in sections that are focused on something else. Although a lot of information is presented, yet there is no real sense of perspective. I think starting with the lead works best, in part because that is the biggest takeaway for many readers. I.e. good payback on time, although no way could we stop there.

:: Ultimately, I think that Bell is best presented (somehow) as a member of the trilogy: EPR, Bell and Aspect. That is really how it is understood by the scientific community at large, even though technically it stands on its own. I am including the following link to one of my Bell pages in case anyone here is interested in seeing an example of how that approach is presented. My page is not intended to be anywhere near as comprehensive as this article needs to be, it is shorter and hopefully sweeter: In addition, for a long time the following link was a reference on this article, although it was removed at some point. (My site is currently also the host for the PDF version of the original paper in the article.)--] (]) 15:44, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:::: Given that "DrChinese Presents Bell's Theorem" is not a wiki, I propose a correction here: "That a single theory could bring us to the end of a such an important debate" --- probably, "single theorem" rather than "single theory"? ] (]) 12:40, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

::::: Boris, thanks for this. You are so right, I have made that correction.--] (]) 15:53, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

::: My favourite proof of Bell for precocious 12 year olds is ] on my talk page. It's the Mermin approach (built on counterfactual definitenrss and simple arithmetic) applied to CHSH and tightened up a bit. It came out of giving a lecture on Bell to art students, and discussing Bell on various Internet fora in recent months. (This is where I get banned for promoting OR). I think it's common sense and elementary arithmetic.] (]) 11:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

::: And here's another excellent source: http://en.citizendium.org/Entanglement_(physics), and http://knowino.org/Entanglement_(physics) . Both by ]. ] (]) 11:51, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

::::In response to both of the comments, a reliable secondary source is required for the proof. I am not sure if citizendium falls afoul of the open wiki's are all non-reliable since it isn't exactly open; but it is definitely not up their with peer review but maybe it has a role in the lede by providing an overview since it's a tertiary source like wikipedia. From here: ] it looks like citizendium does have issues with reliability, i.e it can be used as an external link but not a source. ] (]) 12:37, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

::::: Both Tsirelson and my day jobs are writing primary and secondary sources in mathematics. Boris could publish his Citizendium text on arXiv.org and his home page and then it slowly becomes a reliable source. I have done the same with new (pedagogical) ideas I get while editing Misplaced Pages. Other editors can use or ignore such spin-off on their own merits, later. ] (]) 04:29, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

:::::: What is it about? My text on Citizendium contains no proofs. After a general introduction, it presents two examples with statements and comments, not proofs. Comments and explanations are more or less mine, but examples and statements are not. They are borrowed from the cited literature (quite reliable sources). There, proofs can be found. In particular, try this:
:::::::{{Citation
| last1 = Buhrman
| first1 = Harry
| last2 = Cleve
| first2 = Richard
| last3 = Massar
| first3 = Serge
| last4 = de Wolf
| first4 = Ronald
| year = 2010
| title = Nonlocality and communication complexity
| journal = Reviews of Modern Physics
| volume = 82
| number = 1
| pages = 665–698
| url = http://link.aps.org/doi/10.1103/RevModPhys.82.665
}} (also ).
::::::] (]) 06:40, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I have re-written the lead. I realize that every person has their own spin on things. I would recommend that unless what I have written is incorrect or misleading in some way, we leave as close to this as possible. It is intended to serve only as a lead that would be useful to someone who wants to get a high level summary quickly. Instead, I would suggest that we use the detail sections to provide a greater wealth of background rather than placing here. If the lead does not follow usual guidelines in your opinion, let me know and I will try to edit with that in mind.

After we get a decent lead, it should help us to work on the sections. We may need to change a few section titles in the process.--] (]) 23:12, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

:Between the first sentence and the second, I would like to see mentioned the fact that quantum mechanics is non-deterministic. There will be readers who are not into physics and who need to be told explicitely that quantum mechancis makes statistical predictions, and that the question then arises if there exists a hidden variable theory that would explain the outcome of individual measurements. ] (]) 23:33, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

:: Good suggestion, I think I can write something that will make sense of that. I will add something once I get a few more suggestions. My goal is to make sure that we don't create a Frankenstein article by adding one thing here after another. So I am going to try to make sure the net effect of each change does not cause that. BTW, to all: I am not trying to control anything, just want to see a good result. If you look at Shimony's Stanford article, you can see the upside to a degree of consistency. Of course, that one is quite technical in comparison to what we need here. I would like to assist in some of the historical background and overall perspective. I hope someone else will come up with a solution to how to best present the proof itself. I have several different proofs that I present on my own website. Although they get the same basic answer, all the proofs that are usually cited are different than's Bell's own. The issue is that Bell had a different situation than we do today. He originated the idea, and wasn't worried about presentation to anyone but technical readers. Most of the easy to understand proofs (like the ones I use) do not strictly follow Bell in his particulars.--] (]) 00:27, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
::: I would suggest two proofs are given: 1) Bell's CHSH proof in his "Bertlmann's socks" paper. This is Bell's own final word on the proof of his theorem, it is connected to the famous experiments, the CHSH inequality is most often nowadays thought of as the paradigmatic Bell inequality. 2) Mermin's proof with the three angles (this is a two party, three measurements per party, two outcomes per measurement experiment, it corresponds to a " generalized" Bell inequality for that situation). This connects to the modern work investigating "all Bell inequalities", GHZ, CGLMP and so on. Mermin's proof uses counterfactual definiteness, arithmetic and logic. Bell's uses simple calculus / formula manipulation. Different people find different styles of proof useful. That's why I think these two are a good contrast. (PS I like the lead so far. EPR has a Misplaced Pages page, must add the link). ] (]) 04:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
::::Thanks Richard, good suggestions. We may want to include more than one. When I think about it, Bell doesn't actually require a generalized proof. The minimum requirement is a (i.e. any) single counterexample (such as Mermin's 0/120/240) in which you cannot construct a dataset which reproduces the QM expectation. Mermin's approach then reduces to an explanation of WHY such a dataset cannot be constructed for that particular choice of angles. The way I see it, once Bell threw out his particular counterexample, he really exposed the crack in the foundation of Einstein's realistic viewpoint. After that, we saw how to construct a variety of roughly equivalent proofs. So I teeter between embracing Bell's original one (which I think can be cryptic in some ways) or embracing the newer ones (which are far easier to convey).--] (]) 15:10, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
::: The proof via CHSH is also a proof via a single counterexample: the correlations 1/sqrt 2, 1/sqrt 2, 1/sqrt 2, -1/sqrt 2. It has yet more significance: for a 2 party, 2 measurements per party, 2 outcomes per measurement experiment, the set of CHSH inequalities is necessary and sufficient for local realism. In other words, any 2x2x2 counterexample is actually a proof by CHSH. It connects to the experiments (Aspect, Weihs, ..). It's related to EPR: two complementary observables per party. Finally, when the proof is written out using counterfactual definiteness rather than the factorization and hidden variables as in ], it is as simple as Mermin's. <p> On the other hand, there is already a (not very good) article ]. Maybe best to improve that one, first. ] (]) 18:40, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Yes, that's an issue too. We are going to have to pick a few of the key related articles and re-work them too. Part of the issue is: how much do we duplicate (i.e. the text is here AND it is there)? Hmmm.--] (]) 20:31, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
::As a wry aside (re Shimony's Stanford article) : I missed the reference to his former student's "groundbreaking" work on that page.--] (]) 00:27, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

== Cyclic debate: Time for WP:AN? ==

I really do not remember how many times I have seen the long paragraph about J. Christian's lifestory/thesis adviser being the “S” in the Bell-CHSH inequality etc., etc. on this talk page. It was posted again now, just above. Could we have an agreement that we all know that paragraph by heart now, and we do not need to read it again and again? As for compromise on including J. Christian's views, that has been discussed and soundly rejected above per ]. There is no need to re-run that debate.

When ] suggested a ] due to ] two days ago, I felt it was not necessary. But I am beginning to agree with him. Should this cycle continue, I think his suggestion should be followed on ] and a topic ban on J. Christian and Fred should be sought. There are enough users here for that to happen, given the clear existence of WP:COI and the general agreement that the views are subject to ]. I see no need for a ban on Richard Gill, however. It would take 2 days of discussion and wasted time, but we are already spending that effort here anyway. Misplaced Pages can not be Fringe/COI powered. ] (]) 08:03, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:It seems we are getting a lot more SPAs coming along though as well. ] (]) 12:46, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

::I was trying not to say the same thing. If you want to ask for a quick check on those 2 or 3 user accounts and IPs as possible WP:SPI sleeper cases it will not hurt. All that can happen is that we may get an answer that none relate to each other. ] (]) 12:50, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:::I don't think it's a case of sock puppetry but meat puppetry. I'll launch the SPI investigation anyway, I may be the wrong/partially wrong. ] (]) 12:59, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

::::In fact, Sławomir ] with a good search. ] (]) 14:18, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

There was a comment above by Fred Diether to IR Wolfie to the effect that "either compromise or we go to arbitration". Given that there is a clearly established consensus above that the ideas are ] and lack ] sources (and the direct acknowledgement that mainstream scholarly sources refuse to publish them), Misplaced Pages policies do not allow compromises on them. As stated above there can be no compromise that "]" once it has been established that the flat-earth theory is subject to ]. This may well be one more reason for going over to WP:AN. ] (]) 21:00, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

:Yes, something needs to be done alright. Your and IR Wolfie's intimidation tactics don't scare me and I am probably going to report your behavior and disruption of this dispute discussion to ]. Let me clue you in on something; consensus only works if all parties agree to it. Same with mediation. That is why I believe this content dispute will end up in arbitration if you are not willing to compromise as I have repeatedly requested. ] (]) 21:28, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

::Please be my guest. I have ''absolutely'' breached no policy ''whatsoever''. FYI: arbitrators will have to agree to take the case. Not likely here. You will have to go to try another venue first. There were 13 people who argued against you, not just myself and IR Wolfie. And given that you have a ] account with a total of 30 edits in the past 5 days only to this talk page and never to another Misplaced Pages page, the situation is somewhat ironic as you argue against the overall trend. And per ] editors can not locally compromise to breach policy by using non-] fringe sources. And per ], consensus against you does not require your agreement. ] (]) 21:32, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
::(To Fred Diether:) Your notion that the editors opposed to inclusion are somehow obliged to compromise is ... strange. ] for exclusion has already been established. Before you report alleged disruption to ], please read ]. &nbsp;--] 11:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
::: ]: "'''''consensus only works if all parties agree to it'''''" - this is another misunderstanding you have of Misplaced Pages policy. Check out ] - right there in the first paragraph, it says "''Consensus on Misplaced Pages does not mean unanimity''". ] (]) 13:34, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

This has truly gone too far. Misplaced Pages operates by consensus. We gave the proponents of Christian's work a long debate and a proper consensus check (a !vote). Not only do we have consensus - but not one of the minority arguments swayed a single majority editor in the least degree - which is a strong indication that views have now solidified and that further debate won't alter the consensus. This is how you know that "it's over".

Hence, there is now a stunningly clear consensus involving many experienced editors who understand Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines on such matters - and that should be the end of it. Further demands for compromise and circumlocutions of arguments that have already been soundly defeated have now become a clear case of ]. I strongly suggest that ] reads at least the ] and realize that he has fallen squarely into that category - then observe the predictable progress through the list of actions at ] is now being engaged in - which will inevitably result in serious consequences for those who continue to assault the deceased equine's battered carcass.

With a solid consensus and no movement on either side in response to debate, I can tell you from L-O-N-G experience that this means that there is absolutely zero chance of any of Christian's work getting the slightest mention in this article without some new secondary and tertiary sources showing up as evidence for mainstream support of his views...in which case, we would of course reconsider and re-open the debate.

The editorial and content discussion is clearly over - all that remains is for the disruption to spiral off to the point where those who continue to POV-push in the face of consensus dig themselves into a deep enough hole for admin sanctions to be applied. ] strongly applies here.

] (]) 13:22, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

* I agree with Steve. In any case user:Interintel has now been indef-blocked, and on the SPI case the closing admin (user:AGK) commented that these accounts are tag-teaming to subvert consensus and recommended further blocks. I think there has been enough discussion here to end this matter. Hence I will stop looking at this page for a week or two, and hope that those involved in editing will continue with the clean up, given that there are now a good number of people familiar with the topic here. Thanks. ] (]) 14:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

==Counterfactual definiteness==
There was a strange reference to a 1973 article by Eberhardt which apparently said Bell's theorem could be proved without hidden variables. I'm guessing this means that we should talk about CFD instead. Hidden variables implies CFD. The converse is also true if one takes the hidden variables to be all outcomes of all measurements, I put in a reference to ] but also had to edit that article. Wrong definition, no references. I did not add references yet. What would be the best? ] (]) 17:11, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I also did some rewriting of the leads of ] and ]. Neither article has been much touched since about 2005. Both articles need a whole lot more work. They are biased and out of date. ] (]) 18:44, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The article ] seems on the other hand to be in fairly decent shape.I added it in the "See also" list. ] (]) 07:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

"See also" also has ]. Seems to me that article could be deleted. ] (]) 16:57, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
:Or maybe merged into other articles, if it contains something useful. ] (]) 16:28, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
:: At a quick look it contains nothing which is is not in "expected" articles. (BTW Boris, I really like your Citizendium article! I will log in and improve your English - delete about 50% of the occurrences of "the").] (]) 18:01, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
::: Yes, please! Indeed, writing on a wiki I am less bothered with my English: someone can correct it. (And strangely, on Misplaced Pages this happens very rarely, even though I wrote a long article "]".) ] (]) 19:38, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
{{od}}
Can the 3-4 of you guys agree on what it would take to fix this article within the next 30-60 days to the point where all the tags can come off? I do like the new lede, but Stapp needs a link, etc. This is a "key result", and now that the book reviewers are no longer with us, there should be no major contention and a collegial atmosphere can prevail. Based on my personal theory, having key articles in good shape improves the stature of Misplaced Pages and increases donations, and helps the encyclopedia in the long term. So help in getting this (and the surrounding articles) in good shape in the next couple of months will be appreciated. ] (]) 22:40, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
:Probably what they will change and add will require more tags. Good luck with 60 days; in a year from now the article will probably be a mess again. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 02:20, 10 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::No, be positive. Be positive. As we have seen when a key article needs help the community responds. If tags are "]" and against consensus, further action will take place. This is a key article and unilateral disruptions will not go far. I encourage improvements without fear of undue disruption. The community will respond and reason will prevail. ] (]) 06:47, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
::: 30-60 days seems a bit optimistic to me - but it's a nice summer project. ] (]) 18:41, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

::::Well, in the computer business, one always estimates the time, then multiplies by 3, so I guess I was doing that as a matter of habit... ] (]) 21:32, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

:::: About link to Stapp: it is rumored to be (but I did not check). ] (]) 20:20, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

::::: Well, ... ] (]) 21:32, 11 June 2012 (UTC)


==Lede== ==Lede==

Revision as of 22:05, 26 June 2012

WikiProject iconMathematics B‑class High‑priority
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Mathematics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of mathematics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MathematicsWikipedia:WikiProject MathematicsTemplate:WikiProject Mathematicsmathematics
BThis article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
HighThis article has been rated as High-priority on the project's priority scale.
WikiProject iconPhysics B‑class High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Physics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Physics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PhysicsWikipedia:WikiProject PhysicsTemplate:WikiProject Physicsphysics
BThis article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.


Archives
Index
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3
Archive 4Archive 5Archive 6
Archive 7Archive 8Archive 9
Archive 10

This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.


Lede

The version reverted to here reads more clearly for the lede. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:52, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

  • Comment. The old version of the lead is the consensus version. It has been stable for over 5 years, meaning that many editors have implicitly endorsed it (see WP:CON and WP:BRD). If this were a vote, not only would we have the implicit consensus that already existed, but in addition it is two to one against the new change. FNS, if you want this to be included, then you have to make your case here and convince somebody else that you are right. Sławomir Biały (talk) 21:24, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Categories: