Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:53, 29 April 2006

This page was later moved from Talk:Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) to Talk:Falkland Islands. -- Docu

• Archive of discussion prior to March 11, 2006 Straw Poll is here
• Archive of Straw Poll & Falklands vs. Malvinas naming debate (March 11-30, 2006) is here

Question on vandalism

Is there anyway the page could be protected against unsigned edits? These amount for over 95% of the vandalism acts! Regards, Asterion 18:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is called semi-protection. You can request it here: Request for Page Protection. However, I suspect the admins will say that the vandalism rate is too low for protection, and that we should just revert when it happens. You may wish to try. -- Gnetwerker 23:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I think theres a good case for everything to be semi protected, but this is not the place for that level of policy change. In any event guess the real vandals would just register new names.--Gibnews 23:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I will wait and see how it goes. If this sort of actions continues, I shall be requesting semi-protection. Regards, Asterion 16:52, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems to have quietened down. I note that simple vandalism on the Gibraltar pages is reverted in a minute or so, so someone is watching closely. --Gibnews 19:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Forget semi-protection, it needs around 10 vandalistic acts a day. So, just keep it on your watchlist and revert when you see it.KimvdLinde 15:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Malvinas Day today

Today, 2nd April, is Malvinas Day in Argentina: Day of the War Veterans and the Fallen in the Falkland Islands. May the fallen from both sides rest in peace. Asterion 16:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Bias

I've been looking at this quite carefully, and I'm afraid that I detect a rather significant bias. Look at these two sentences from the first paragraph:

In 1982 the islands were the site of the Falklands War between Argentina and the United Kingdom. Their name continues to be a matter of dispute.

This statement appears to give the impression that both sides in this dispute were equally at fault. It gives no hint whatsoever that the aggressors were the Argentines. Let us change it. TharkunColl 23:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should be in the business of apportioning blame, however what is there currently is not a good decription of what actually happened. The phrase I previously proposed does that, and explains the context of the conflict; Argentina invaded the Falklands that is a fact, thats what they said they did and that what I saw on Spanish television. The British sent a task force and recaptured the territory thats also a fact which was grudglingly admitted on TVE and announced more enthusiastically by the BBC. It asserts no POV in relation to the reasons for the invasion or the subsequent recapture. We all know what happened, so why not state it instead of trying to be 'politically correct' and waffle that it was 'the site of the war' - it was not technically a war anyway, although it may be convenient to refer to it using that term. The invasion/recapture explains what happened in words everyone can understand. I don't know why it was taken out.--Gibnews 10:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it is easily fixed with:

In 1982 the islands were the site of the Falklands War between Argentina and the United Kingdom after Argentina invaded the Islands. Because of that, their name continues to be a matter of dispute.

Clear, factual. KimvdLinde 15:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I would support Kim's version, but (with respect) I don't think TharkunColl and Gibnews represent an unbiased position, any more than those who support the Argentine position. The tone of the article, including references to the "Britishness" of the residence, conveys (IMO) a much more accurately nuanced position than the use of various "war words" in the intro. -- Gnetwerker 16:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

There should be no dispute on the name of the isles here: it can only be the Falkland Islands. That is the English language term, and this is the English language Misplaced Pages. Now, as a matter of additional information, and for obvious reasons, the article also states the Spanish name: Malvinas. If possible, that statement should be made without prejudice or bias. If the article needs to add that the word Malvinas is offensive, it should simply point out clearly who is offended by the word and why. Regards - Andres C. 17:53, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Havn't got time to talk. I think you should add a link somewhere to the March of the Malvinas 201.235.46.65 18:24, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

If so we also need a link to This--Gibnews 16:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Gibnews, did you see this? --Nihil aliud scit necessitas quam vincere 04:23, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I Raise you This --Gibnews 17:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I make no pretense of being neutral, my sympathies are with the Falkland islanders. However the words chosen were neutral, made no judgement, and described the important facts concisely.

Health warning: living somewhere harassed by Spanish speaking nations who have no respect for peoples rights may damage your bias.--Gibnews 08:57, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

My simpathies are with neither of the parties involved, but as I said, there's room for improvement. I'll give it a try. Andres C. 12:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

There are actually three parties involved, and the people of the Falkland Islands deserve your sympathy; they have had the peacful occupation of their homes dissrupted.--Gibnews 17:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I do not see the relevance of that opinion on this Talk Page. Were I to respond in kind, we'd soon be arguing about everybody's sympathies for the Irish people, the Boer families, the Iraqi civilians, the Dervish tribes, the inhabitants of Dresden in 1945 or of Washington D.C. in 1812, and who knows what else. That wouldn't add much to the discussion, would it? Andres C. 19:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

If you do not see the point, then you are missing something; The Falkland Islanders are alive today and its their views that are important, they live there. There are no Malvinians.--Gibnews 23:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

We're way off-topic now, but yes, I'm missing something here, like for example: what has sympathy to the Falklanders to do with an international encyclopædia at all? Having said that, and considering that the islanders were not mistreated on purpose by the Argentinians, I'd guess my sympathies would be with the kids who were left there to their own luck, to face in combat a much better trained professional army. I'd say this has to do with some intrinsic ethnic/geographical bias (I'm also from SouthAm). No disrespect towards the islanders, of course, who where as innocent as the Argentinian youngsters. Regards. Andres C. 18:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It is not true that the name "Malvinas" has always been the Spanish name. It only dates from the late 18th century French occupation, as it was the French who coined the word. "Falkland" is almost a hundred years older, and older still is the Dutch "Sebald", which was also used in Spanish. TharkunColl 18:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe you Tharkuncoll, but it so happens that the modern Spanish name is Malvinas. I don't quite follow you on this one. Andres C. 19:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Do you guys actually think it is useful to restart this argument from the top? I don't care if you call the place Jelly Doughnutland, we have argued and (I thought) come to a consensus compromise about how to refer to the Islands, taking into account the various names given them by various countries at various times. TharkunColl, Andres C., and others, can't we leave this settled, and get together on something more interesting like (e.g.) how awful we Americans are? -- Gnetwerker 19:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was just trying to give you guys a couple of suggestions re the Malvinas as an offensive name matter, from the perspective of a non-Argentinian Spanish speaker contributor. Turns out emotions run high on this Talk Page, so I'd better go now. That should teach me a thing or two about following the wrong RfC :) Cheers everybody. Andres C. 20:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Christ, are they still arguing about this? I wish I had that much time to spare! Just zis Guy you know? 18:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Reason for invasion

I seem to recall someone wanting a source for the claim that the junta began the invasion to distract attention from unrest at home: The Guardian quotes a recent speech in which President Kirchner blamed "cowardly aggression" by the then military dictatorship. The junta, said the centre-left president, wanted to shore up its position at home by embarking on a nationalist adventure abroad, while he also reasserted Argentina's claim. The story is also covered here. ..dave souza, talk 13:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Reordering material in intro

I have tried to reorder the material in the intro into a more logical sequence (while doing my best not to upset the fine balance of sensibilities over other things!) The islands should be described first, before we get into any stuff about sovereignty, wars etc. After that, it makes no sense to talk about the war without first stating the islands' present status and the Argentine claim. The stuff about the name certainly belongs in the intro, but is logically subsidiary to physical description and sovereignty issues. (This is not meant to be controversial!) Vilĉjo 17:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it was a good edit. I hope it survives. -- Gnetwerker 19:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Second that. KimvdLinde 19:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

If we are going to have to put up with alternative foreign names, at least lets not give them the same prominence. Given the way this has been changed in steps from the consensus we arrived at - in a few more moves it could become Las Malvinas (falkland islands)--Gibnews 21:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to me the nearest we are likely to get to the Holy Grail of NPOV on this matter: Put it in the first sentence (even though it is, in English-language usage, very much a minority term, as any Google search will verify), but distinguish it visually from the official name by different styling. Maybe it'll make no-one completely happy, but at least if everyone's equally (and oppositely) unhappy ...! Vilĉjo 21:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all, this ussage of only Malvinas was a very hard negotiated compromise, and if you would look at the straw poll above, most were in favour of much clearer language. Malvinas is a english term, so italic is unlogical as that is used for foreign words. If people want that, use than the Spanish version, Islas Malvinas and put in parenthesis like (Spanish: Islas Malvinas). This slowly eroding of the compromise is not acceptable. KimvdLinde 09:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Name discussion again

It seems that we have to start the name discussion again. The long negotiated compromise is actively violated. What are the NEW arguments to change this conpromise? KimvdLinde 09:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Italicising Malvinas has to be one of the lamest pieces of edit-wearring I've ever seen. We have now been through this so many times that I have it in mind to block anyone who italicises instead of bolding that word, for disruption. It's gone well past a joke. Just zis Guy you know? 09:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems perfectly reasonable to me, perhaps you need to consider why it is so important to you to demand that an inapporpriate foreign name is given prominence. As for blocking people for simply disagreeing with you, if you do that, you are not acting responsibly.--Gibnews 11:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It is indeed a fine candidate for WP:LAME. (I changed it once in the obviously forlorn hope that it might be an acceptable compromise—some hope!) But why would you block for italicising and not for bolding? That seems unduly partisan—aren't both disruptive? Kim seems to be claiming that the style, not just the wording, was the subject of a consensus. I can't see any evidence of that on the talk page—or in the edit history, if it comes to that. (If anything, italicisation seems to have been the unstated norm in all the discussions.) I'm hardly going to pursue an edit war over two apostrophes, but I'm bothered by the assertion that this is violating a "long negotiated compromise"—and also by a sysop's threat to unilaterally impose one version rather than another. Vilĉjo 10:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I would also dispute the assertion that "Malvinas" - even without the "Islas" - is actually an English word. When is the word ever used in English, except in edit wars on Misplaced Pages? True, foreign words can indeed become naturalised, but has this really happened to the word "Malvinas"? Does any English speaker actually call the islands that, without making a conscious decision to do so? I doubt it. TharkunColl 10:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It is either a English word, or you have to indicate which language it is. KimvdLinde 10:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Or not use it at all. TharkunColl 10:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Wich has been decided already long time ago. KimvdLinde 10:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I have a new suggestion: The Falkland Islands, also called the Malvinas (though not by the inhabitants), are an archipelago... TharkunColl 10:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

No. A compromise solution has been arrived at. One or two people who dislike the compromise solution (which was in any case largely a response to the fact that - you - they don't like the way Britannica, ISO and the CIA World Factbook name the islands) have taken it upon themselves to try to override or subvert that consensus. It is tendentious and disruptive, and that is not on: they know perfectly well that their preferred format is contentious, they know that if they come back here with it they will get the same result as last time, so they are edit warring. And I'm not disposed to sit back and let them do it. Just zis Guy you know? 10:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

We did indeed reach a consensus, but its been erroded. As for sources The FCO calls the territory the Falkland islands, so do the people living there, its only foreigners that use any other name and this is the ENGLISH wikipedia, but you know this.--Gibnews 11:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

If we reached a consensus, why break it? Eroded? by what? You continue to go around the same subject without giving any valid reasoning considering the nature of the Misplaced Pages. And if a user decides to systematically go against a consensus that we reached so difficulty, then how is that not vandalism? Mariano(t/c) 12:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The argument that this is english wikipedia is a bullshit argument, see WP:NPOV#Anglo-American_focus. KimvdLinde 14:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is it wrong to point out at the outset that the islanders don't use the term? Why is an extra fact unwelcome here? TharkunColl 10:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Read the talk page. You are now just disruptive. If you can not deal with how wikipedia works, I suggest you leave it. KimvdLinde 11:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Read the talk page? They wrote most of it! The point TharkunColl wants made in the first para is already covered in detail in the third para, complete with context. Nobody who reads that will be left in any doubt whatsoever as to the islanders' views on the matter. What we have now is a compromise between the "No Malvinas" editors' initial demands and the original text; they now apparently want to go back for a second round and come up wth a "compromise" between the compromise and their original demands - a process which will, presumably, continue until such time as the article says what they wanted it to say in the first place. Well bollocks to that. As written, it is neutral and satisfactory to moat of us here, as evidence the discussions above. Not everyone agrees? Welcome to the real world. Just zis Guy you know? 13:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Is the dispute here still over the issue of italics vs bold? If so, no consensus was ever reached on the matter (if I am wrong, please point out where it was reached). It appears to have been mainly Kim who has consistently been insisting that bold must be used, and misleadingly putting "per consensus" or similar in the edit summary. Though it's a desperately lame thing to edit-war on, please don't claim that consensus was reached where AFAICS it doesn't even seem to have been discussed. Vilĉjo 14:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Since that's how the foreign names first appeared when someone added them (i.e. in italics), that's what I assumed the current version would be like. TharkunColl 14:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

That holds true only for the (Spanish: Islas Malvinas) format. Mariano(t/c) 14:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Precisely. TharkunColl is being disingenuous, and he knows it. Just zis Guy you know? 14:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. The first edit to use the current version of the opening wording gave Malvinas in italics. (Really, JzG, there's no excuse for making accusations like that against TharkunColl, when the facts are easily discovered from the edit history.) It was not until 49 edits and over 12 days later that it was changed to bold. That was by an anon, but Kim has been stubbornly reinstating it ever since—and now calls it "consensus"!! Vilĉjo 15:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The most recent version that I have been watching several times and reverted to because of vandalism was with Malvinas. So, a sudden change to Malvinas is wierd. I checked the talk page, and the compromise discussed most of the timne contained Malvinas. At the last version, it became Malvinas and that one was inserted. Then I was gone from wikipedia for a long week, and when I came back, it was Malvinas. But I agree, the original inserted version was Malvinas, and I will respect that. KimvdLinde 16:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I wonder who changed that? No matter: bold works best. End edit warring works worst, by a very long way. Just zis Guy you know? 17:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Kim, I trust that can now be changed back. However, in the last couple of days the point that "The formal name of the islands is a matter of dispute" which was an essential part of the first paragraph in the agreed compromise has been lost. I would consider it acceptable to have that as added as the last sentence of the current first paragraph, but if that is not agreed we can revert to the wording as as of 16:45, 9 April 2006. ...dave souza, talk 17:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

That edit claims that Malvinas "has always been the geographical name for the islands in Spanish". But TharkunColl wrote above: It is not true that the name "Malvinas" has always been the Spanish name. It only dates from the late 18th century French occupation, as it was the French who coined the word. "Falkland" is almost a hundred years older, and older still is the Dutch "Sebald", which was also used in Spanish. Better, therefore, to add your sentence at the end of the first para. (One would hope it could not be regarded as controversial—even those who think the name "Falkland(s)" should be used by everyone, everywhere, can hardly deny that the name is, in practice, a matter of dispute.) Vilĉjo 18:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Name = Falkland Islands, NOTHING ELSE

The name of a territory can ONLY be decided by the sovereign power, and as such the territory in question is The Falkland Islands. We do not state on the United Kingdom page that in other languages it is known as Royaume Uni, Reino Unido, etc, therefore there is no reason for this to be called anything other than the name decided by the sovereign power. In any case a translation would be "Isle Falklands" "Islas Falkland" and so on.

It may be OK to mention on the text that others know it as "Malvinas" but NOT at the beginning of the article as if this had official status.

It is not for a group of people on the internet to reach a "consensus" on whether a territory should have a diferent name, this is the sole prerogative of the sovereign power, i.e. UK.

the beginning of the text os for commonly used names, not official stuff. That can be done at government websites. KimvdLinde 17:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem is how you include it, I'm happy to have it there but not with equal billing, as it does not have any official standing, with the sovereign state. see this.

Full Country Name: Falkland Islands

Now, that is a definitive source for the name - Bill Gates encyclopedia is full of shit. For example the Encarta article says of Gibraltar "major factors of the economy are the processing of food products" - news to me. I thought we were trying to describe the truth not bend it to appease irredentism.

The Italics were strong enough.--Gibnews 18:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Stop the nationalistic stuff. Government sides are by definition NOT reliable to resolve encyclopedic issues. KimvdLinde 18:34, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not nationalistic to speak the truth. According to your ideas, the whole world and his wife should have a say in the naming of the place, apart from the people that actually live there. TharkunColl 18:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It is, however, nationalistic to ignore the alternative name used by a substantial proportion of the world's population, including ISO, Britannica and the CIA. But we have been here before. The FACT is that the British Government, your preferred source, cannot be considered neutral, and it is absurd to suggest otherwise. Just zis Guy you know? 19:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The British Government's opinion is DEFINITIVE.--Gibnews 05:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, are we ready for that Mediation/ArbCom case that I thought we dodged before? Gibnews and TharkunColl, are you rescinding your agreement to the previously-reached compromise? I have no wish to reprise the argument carried on at length only a few weeks ago, so if we've lost consensus I suggest we go straight to mediation. -- Gnetwerker 21:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

• Second that. KimvdLinde 21:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
• Not opposed, bu actually there does seem to be broad agreement from all but a couple of editors. Just zis Guy you know? 22:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
• I think we should just leave the first line the way it is at the moment. Although I still think the entire intro is poorly written. Astrotrain 23:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

How dare you suggest that it is I, and Gibnews, that are the cause of this latest outbreak. There have been dozens of sneaky attempts to subvert the consensus, not least the attempts to put "Malvinas" in bold, rather than italics. TharkunColl 23:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

My apologies if I have misrepresented your opinion. It would appear that in the comment at the top of this very section, Gibnews has taken a position that Malvinas does not belong in the lead, and your previous statement "This statement appears to give the impression that both sides in this dispute were equally at fault" concerning another part of the lead contributed to my belief that you also were rejecting the previous compromise. If it's not so, please say so. Vis the italics vs. bold issue, I support the previous agreement, which was to use italics. -- Gnetwerker 23:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, I am happy to leave the M word in, but in italics as it is not an alternative legal name - so we are actually in agreement. That was the only change I apart from trying to describe the war correctly which also you were substantially in agreement. I'm not trying to score any political points, or for that matter blame Argentina - just state FACTS like is it.--Gibnews 05:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The compromise never held. People kept on placing increasingly anti-Falkland islander statements in it, based on their own political stance. Why are we treating this territory any different from any other? No one has yet satisfactorily answered why a non-native foreign language term should be included at all, and have most certainly provided no Misplaced Pages articles where this is the case. Their stance in this issue is clearly political. TharkunColl 23:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

"Their stance in this issue is clearly political." -- as is yours, of course. However, I take it that you are using the random vandals as the excuse to abandon the compromise? There is no point in further arguing with the partisans on either side, hence my belief that we need to bring this into the Misplaced Pages mediation process. -- Gnetwerker 23:43, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

No! My stance is linguistic - as with all my Misplaced Pages edits. TharkunColl 23:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't see any reason for an ArbCom case. Though it's only been a few hours, the present text appears to be stable, and AFAICS neither Gibnews, TharkunColl nor anyone else no-one from either side (with the exception of a single anonymous intervention from a possible sockpuppet of Gibraltarian) seems to be actively trying to subvert it. There are still outstanding issues, but no evidence at present that they can't be dealt with rationally without going to mediation. Is anyone out there objecting to the original compromise text, which I think we have now restored? Vilĉjo 23:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm content with the current lead. Let it stand--Gibnews 05:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, seems okay to me as well. TharkunColl 07:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The next time calm down, why do you need to fight like that? You have been discussing for weeks, and arrived to an agreement, or something that looked like one. Why do you have to carry on? and why do you need to be so agressive? (Personaly I dont care much about a name but this isn't the way we are supposed to work here); and Tharkun, you have to understand our puint of view, the "non native foreign language" is the language of the people you expelled. You won't understand why after 180 years we still claim the islands, it is in our blood,it is part of of our argentinity and you won't change that. See, I'm 16, and don't like you very much. (But I'm happy; I know you don't hate us, as many of our connationals hate you, and as an argentine-italian I am not able to complaint, because I will be lucky eough to be allowed to visit if I want, after the EU's constitution.) Excuse me if I offended you - Argentino (Talk cont.) 14:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The Falkland Islands are not part of the EU, and like the other British overseas territories, maintains its own immigration controls. Even British citizens need the permission of the territory's government if they wish to reside in the Islands (with the exception of the British military on active service). Astrotrain 14:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

After 180 years any people who lived in the Falkland Islands are dead and history. We the people (here) did not expell anyone and the Only people who have the right to determine the future of the territory and indeed its name are those people who live there today. Many countries are the result of successive invasions, for instance Britain and Argentina - there is no turning back the moving finger of time. --Gibnews 22:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your frankness, Argentino. I don't hate you - I've never met you - and I don't hate the Argentine people. But what I do hate is military aggression, especially by fascistic governments against a much smaller neighbour unable to defend itself. Galtieri was banking on the British not getting involved. It was a gamble, and he lost - big time. Why is it in your blood after 180 years? 180 years ago the British controlled a quarter of the world, but do I get upset that we don't any more? Hell no! I'm glad that we have created so many new countries all over the place - our legacy in history is secure. But I must point out that Argentina never controlled the Falklands. Spain did, but you Aregentines rebelled against your colonial masters. You cannot claim a territory that you never controlled, it makes no sense whatsoever. It is all propaganda by your government. TharkunColl 16:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

As I recall it, Galtieri based his opinion that the Brits wouldn't care on the fact that the FCO was at that time already in negotiation about a handover (whether that was just an urban myth I don't know). He forgot, of course, that the old adage "when in trouble at home declare war overseas" applies to British Prime Ministers every bit as much as any other political leader, and there is no doubt that the Falklands conflict was exactly what Maggie needed at the time. But all that is an aside. Just zis Guy you know? 16:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and I was never a supporter of Thatcher. If the Argentines had never invaded then who knows, perhaps a negotiated settlement would have happened. Thatcher destroyed the British economy and I can only think of two good things that she ever did - stand up to Argentine military aggression, and allow pubs to open in the afternoon. TharkunColl 16:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The sovereign power, i.e. UK has decided that the name of the territory is "The Falkland Islands". Who are we to reach "consensus" otherwise? Certainly the other name used by some can be mentioned in the text, but NOT as a header.

As stated multiple times above, what the UK decides is irrelevant to what other countries call it. The UK cannot wish away the territorial claim. It is, in any case, simply a case of squatter's rights. Just zis Guy you know? 19:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

That phrase is most offensive; The people living in the Falklands are not 'squatters' - it is their home - they have built their houses and community and deserve respect. --Gibnews 20:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

At least four countries have claimed the islands as their own over time. Which one happened to end up there is an accident of history. Just zis Guy you know? 21:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

No its not an 'accident of history' people have fought and died to make things the way they are. Count yourself lucky to have avoided that - read This and be nice to the guys in .fk they have enough problems already without being insulted. --Gibnews 21:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Going on that view of "squatter's rights", then JzG must also imply that the people form Argentina who are not native are squatters as well. And if you really want to pick at the bone, then you could say that everyone is a squatter, since we are descended form same place in Africa. It centenary is offensive, and is inappropriate coming form an administrator, not just some arrogant user trying to cause trouble. 82.26.177.44 21:09, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Pledge

I pledge to swiftly revert non-consensus edits and vandalism to the intro from any point of view, British, Argentine, or other. -- Gnetwerker 15:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

As it would seem that the version I have been supporting, fair and reasonable after all, is currently in place I will agree with you and act likewise, but I'm not signing the pledge--Gibnews 22:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree an am goingt to revert a non-consensused, and unsigned edit by User:212.120.224.250 in wich he/she deleted the name "Malvinas". He/she has contributed 3 times with something related with Gibraltar, 1 to request a page for protection and 2 for the islands (one is this talk). That makes 6 contributions in all, 50% of wich have something to do with Gibraltar. That sounds fammiliar to me. -Argentino 18:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems our old friend User:Gibraltarian is back... Asterion 18:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that too PS: Maybe RVERTING is a bit too much so i re-writted those 4 words and let the vandal to stay in the article's history. Argentino 18:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it is, although there are at least two thousand ADSL users in Gibraltar, and 99% have no sympathy for other peoples territorial claims. However, we did finally reach a consensus on this issue and I'm now supporting Gnetwerker as above.--Gibnews 19:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The best solution would be to use the ISO denomination, as this is an encyclopedia and needs to stick to standards. Asterion 23:18, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

We have been there and its not acceptable. The current formula as supported by Gnetwerker myself and others will solve the problem. We basically have a consensus and although extremists may want to go further, lets leave it there and move on.--Gibnews 08:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the only correct way is to have (Spanish Islas Malvinas]]) in the first sentence..... But I am not alone here, but if people want to start this discussion again by going back to original positions, I can and will do so also..... KimvdLinde 08:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

This is we originally agreed indeed. Gibnews and others, remember the straw poll? --Asterion 11:09, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I remember the straw poll, which I'd have voted in had it not been suggested that my vote shouldn't be counted. PhilipPage 01:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

You have been promoting that all along, however you know very well that giving foreign names equal prominence is not going to work - what we have now is a compromise which stands a chance. The Argentinians have been very reasonable over the whole thing - however let me remind you that the Spanish Netherlands were stolen from their rightful owners under the Treaty of Utrecht and the .nl wikipedia should be re-written in Spanish... --Gibnews 08:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I sincerely have no idea what you are on about now. Stick to the subject of the article, please--Asterion 11:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps because its in reply to KimvdLinde who seems to want to shift the goalposts on the agreed position because of a lack of understanding of territorial disputes.--Gibnews 14:03, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

No one is talking about territorial disputes or Spain or whatever but wikipedia guidelines and policy on naming conventions. Any revert of the status quo will need to be taken care of swiftly. We have previously agreed on keeping the Malvinas name there and I want a guarantee you will stick to this. Regards, --Asterion 17:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Lets be plain, the ONLY reason the name exists is to give credibility to a territorial claim. --Gibnews 21:03, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I do not want to change anything, but if people are going to push again for removal of the term, I equally could start pushing for the inclusion of the wider term in line with wikipedia policies on naming. KimvdLinde 16:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

So if we can't have peace, we at least have detente. :-) -- Gnetwerker 19:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

P.s. -- To summarize, Gibnews, Tharkuncol, and others believe that the only correct name for the islands is Falklands, and others should be minimized; KimvdLinde, possibly Argentino and others think that the Spanish-language name (Islas Malvinas) should be more prominent; and Asterion and I (Gnetwerker) think the ISO name (Falklands (Malvinas)) should be used in the intro. We have implemented a fourth alternative that no one specifically supports but we're all (somewhat) comfortable with. Various parties continue to militate for their positions, and others speak of escalation in the event the compromise is breached, a sort of Mutual Assured Destruction scenario. Hence the pledge: think of it as nuclear non-first use treaty -- if we keep the compromise, we avoid an edit war. Best! -- Gnetwerker 19:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, as promised I am keeping to that (see my last rv)--Gibnews 21:03, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I did see that -- it was great to see. If we stop fighting over the lead, we can move on to improving the article as a whole (which is already pretty good, I'd say). -- Gnetwerker 22:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we MUST avoid an edit war, but you are wrong, i dont think "Islas Malvinas" should be more prominent and nothing else; but In this encyclopedia we cal leave it like the ISO if you want (if it was as I want, we could start a real war)... maybe not so much... anyway, it is OK like this and we must leve it and forget it. I am not a mad ultranationalist after all. Oh, and I propose to vote: Do you want semiprotection to avoid this gibralarian guy? Argentino 21:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, and didn't mean to misrepresent your position, I was just quickly scanning the various sides. No offense intended! You have been eminently reasonable here. I have requested semi-prot to deal with Gilbraltarian, but don't know if it will be given. -- Gnetwerker 22:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The situation seems under control, and as I have pointed out there are at least 2000 Gibraltarian ADSL users, you may have problems with one called Gibraltarian for historical reasons - and although none of us have any sympathy for certain territorial claims, we understand the issues better than most. Indeed we nearly directly participated--Gibnews 08:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

"Consensus"??????

The naming of a territory is the SOLE prerogative of the sovereign power, i.e. UK. If others wish to call it something else, then of course this can and indeed should be reflected in the text, but NOT by giving it equal status to the one and only official name of the territory, i.e. The Falkland Islands.

There is nothing to reach consensus on, it is for the sovereign power UK to decide alone. If Wikipedians reach "consensus" on who should be the next UN Secretary General, do you really think that anyone should take notice? It is not possible to reach "consensus" to alter a fact. This is after all an encyclopedia and must deal in FACT. If we reach "consensus" here that the moon is actually made of cheese after all, nothing will alter the reality of it.

I repeat it is the SOLE prerogative of the UK as sovereign power to decide the name of the territory, and they have done so. It is "The Falkland Islands", nothing else. I am not suggesting eliminating any mention of alternatives, but none can be given quasi official status, no matter how many Wikipedians think so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.236.223 (talk • contribs) sockpuppet of banned user Gibraltarian (UTC)

Remember, Do not feed the trolls, best answer to this sort of remarks is to ignore them. --Asterion 14:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Oxford English Dictionary

Without wishing to re-start the edit war, I have just discovered that the word "Malvinas" does not occur anywhere in the OED. If we consider the OED authorititive, then the word "Malvinas" cannot be considered part of the English language. Personally speaking, I think this overstates the case. "Malvinas" does exist in English (though is very rare), and means something like "The name that the Argentines tried, unsuccessfully, to impose on the Falkland Islands by military force in 1982". It is never, as far as I can tell, used in any other normal context. TharkunColl 11:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Stop the British nationalism. This encyclopedia is NOT biased towards Anglo-American facts. KimvdLinde 15:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Give it a rest some of us are trying to sleep;--Gibnews 16:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Here's a great way to go about not wishing to restart the edit war: don't re-start the edit war. Simple, really. Just zis Guy you know? 11:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

If we are going to talk about names, we can say thet "Falkland Islands" is the name imposed by the British Empire by military force in 1833.
I know I am not going to change your mind (and you are definitively not going to change mine) but I thought you had finished arguing, so I am not going to start arguing again but the matter was, or seemed to be, solved.
Accidentally: if the name "Malvinas" doesn't exist, it shouldn't mean anything, because, if a word has a meaning, it exists. So we decide, do we beelive an english dicctionary or the common speak? Another thing: I think I'm going to write down something like "the argentine point of view about..." in my userpage, because I found out in iternet that there are many people that think we are some kind of uncivilizated barbarians. Gnetwerker: don't apologyze, it was my fault if I semmend offended, I wasn't, and I find wonderfull theese news. Argentino (Talk cont.) 13:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC) I wroted what i said up there, islanders wont like it very much, i guess, it is our POV afer all. It is NOT my personal POV. It is the POV of many argentines (i can't say most args., but most iv'e met). Possibly, some argentines wont love it but anyway here it is User:Argentino/Essay --Argentino 01:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to try and edit the page, but since the Oxford English Dictionary is currently offering a one-week free subscription, I thought I'd take the opportunity to check it out.

The name "Falkland Islands" was not imposed by military force in 1833 - it had already existed since 1690, long before "Malvinas". But the doings of long-dead generations has never been what I base my argument on. The land of your country, Argentina, was stolen from the Indians - should you give it back?

As for "Malvinas" not existing as an English word, if you had read my post you would have discovered that I think it actually does, albeit a very rare one. And its meaning is wholly negative.

And in case I get accused of nationalism yet again, I would like to state that my motivation is primarily linguistic. Here at Misplaced Pages foreign names for countries are given in the native language(s) of that country. Spanish is not native to the Falklands, therefore to include the Spanish name is to give undue credence to a foreign territorial claim. TharkunColl 16:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

And on the last point, linguistic is not the criterion, but what is commonly used is. Besides that, if your argument was not nationalistic but linguistic, you would not make this argument: to include the Spanish name is to give undue credence to a foreign territorial claim. KimvdLinde 17:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

This is an English encyclopedia, and "Malvinas" is hardly ever used in English. Furthermore, it is rejected by the islanders. Foreign territorial claims should be mentioned in the body of the article, not in the header. If you keep on accusing me of nationalism, I might as well accuse you of anti-English language sentiment. TharkunColl 17:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

In international relations the name Malvinas is used often enough that we should include a mention of it so that people understand that they refer to the Falklands. DJ Clayworth 17:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

About recent disputes: "Malvinas" existed, as far as I know, since at least 1816, so it is probably not invented by a militar government. And about the non-existence of that name, I wrote that we had to choose between the dictionary or the common speek (with this I ment: Should we choose a dictionery wich says nothing about it or is the true existence of the name, let's say, "colloquialy" more important?). Anyway, i dont want to speak about this again. I won't pull the article on my side, and please dont try to pull it to your side. the NPOV can be slighty POVed, and i think that putting "Malvinas" bolded or normal is clearly pro-argentinian and not putting it is clearly pro-british. As we are supposed to be neutral I'd leve it just as it is now but please, bear this in mind: Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox (Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not). I dont publish my ideas in the articles, and hope other people dont publish their own. I know, it is realy unfair to put Malvinas bold or anything, but, even in forums, you can not try to win everything and make everyone think the same you think. So, because this is NOT a forum (and if it was i'd loose trribly because i dont have that level of english nessesary) and we have to respect all the points of view, and the article is OK to me just as it is now, I AM AGAINST ANY OTHER CHANGES IN THE HEADER. This represents my point of view now if someone has a really good reason, maybe i change my mind, in the meantime, i'm against. I hope i dont have to write anything more here.
Ad astra per aspera; Ad augusta per angusta
Argentino(Talk Contributions Edit Count) 17:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

You, and all who support your cause, are making the fundamental error of assuming that both sides in this territorial dispute have equal claims. The reason why they don't is because the islanders themselves are not divided on the issue. This makes the Argentine claim frivolous. TharkunColl 23:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The Argentine claim is irrelevant to this discussion, so its relative weight vis-a-vis the British claim and occupancy is also irrelevant. What the British government calls the place is similarly irrelevant, except insofar as it represents wide usage. The discussion should be about what the world calls the place, and as the extensive citations to other reference works, news media, and other sources indicate, the majority of the English-speaking world calls the place "The Falkland Islands", while a substantial minority call it by a variety of other phrases that include the word "Malvinas", and many in the Spanish-speaking world call it "Islas Malvinas". The why, who, and whether-appropriate of this are absolutely beside the point. This Misplaced Pages page does not support any position, but simply reports on the state of the world. If you wish to keep arguing about various national claims, please do so somewhere else. -- Gnetwerker 00:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

People who speak Spanish have all sorts of different words for things but that is no reason for giving alternatives in every article in the ENGLISH wikipedia, and certainly not one where the use of a foreign name is to assert ownership of the territory;

We have a compromise, the Argentine side agrees; so lets move on. Perhaps it should be called Malvinos because there are a lot of bad whines.--Gibnews 01:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It is NOT a case of British Nationalism, but simply one of the UK deciding what to call it's own territory. If UK unilaterally decided to rename Buenos Aires "La La Land", and a couple of wikipedians thought this a good idea, would we have to alter ALL references to the city of all language WP's? "E.G. Buenos Aires, also known as La La Land, is the capital city of Argentina" "Buenos Aires, tambien conocido como La La Land es la ciudad capital de Argentina". I think that this would be a ridiculous situation and make a mockery of an encyclopedia as WP claims to be. Insisting on calling The Falkland Islands, by a name other than it's correct one similarly makes a mockery of it. The alternatives should of course be mentioned in the text, but NOT given quasi official status. This is not something upon which "consensus" can properly be reached......it is for the UK alone to decide the name.

Why is calling the territory by it's name "British nationalism", but insisting on supplanting an alternative not considered "Argentine nationalism"?

Asterion, the ONLY troll here is you. Yanito. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.236.194 (talk • contribs) (sockpuppet of banned user Gibraltarian) (UTC)

Actually the UK government has used the term Malvinas before. After the Argentine invasion in 1982, the British delegation to the UN Security Council redrafted (at their own suggestion) Resolution 502 condeming the invasion in order include the term Malvinas. Of course this was only a diversionary tactic, to give the government enough time to lobby the other members of the Security Council into voting to pass it. See Question concerning the situation in the region of the Falkland Islands (Malvinas)

I think we should stick with the current consensus which acknowledges the existence of the term Malvinas, but does not seek to give it any POV legitimacy. Astrotrain 14:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The only reason I brought it up again is because the Oxford English Dictionary is currently offering a one-week free subscription to anyone, but you have to access it through a BBC linked page like this (don't forget to tick the box) - . TharkunColl 14:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I wroted what i said up there, islanders wont like it very much, i guess, it is our POV afer all and it is probably wrong and misspelled, it is NOT my personal POV but it is the POV of many argentines (i can't say most args., but most iv'e met) and possibly, some argentines wont love it. Anyway, althoug it is not perfect, here it is: User:Argentino/Essay
Argentino 01:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Exonym

It might be worth including this term - exonym - in the article. TharkunColl 23:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Etymology of a foreign name that is not used on the Falklands

Why is this useful? Why don't we have an etymology of "Falklands" instead? TharkunColl 18:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It is a nonsense to give the derivation of "Malvinas" without giving the derivation of "Falkland". But etymologies don't belong in the first para. I have put both of them in the third para, in the same context.

But I'm a bit concerned about the first sentence of the third para: The islands are referred to by the islanders and in the United Kingdom as "(The) Falkland Islands". That seems to imply that that nomenclature is a slightly bizarre aberration shared only by people in those territories, rather than the normal English-language name – from which any other (English-language) usage is a self-conscious divergence, just as much as Islas Falkland is a self-conscious divergence from the normal Spanish-language usage. Vilĉjo 20:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, that could indeed be worded better. TharkunColl 21:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The final stage of the edits including name origins seems good. I would ask that the parties carry on the discussion here in the future, not in edit summaries. -- Gnetwerker 00:09, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

We may get some peace now

As I said before, I was keeping an eye to request semi-protection. Hopefully, we will be able to move on now with other parts of the article. Cheers, --Asterion 16:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

There appears to be about twice as much space devoted to the etymology of "Malvinas" than of "Falklands". Why? TharkunColl 17:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I think after the wars over the placing, the wording and even the type-styling of "Malvinas", the last thing we need is a war over comparative word-counts. If you want to flesh out the English derivation, feel free to do so – e.g. some basic info on John Strong and the nature of his expedition might be helpful. (But the etymological stuff shouldn't become too detailed if it is all to remain in the intro – it's actually pushing it for length even at the moment, IMO.) Vilĉjo 17:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

That said, the phrase "the French navigator and military commander Louis Antoine de Bougainville" turns up both here and in the "History" section (even complete with double wiki-linking). (The History section also tells us more about Strong.) In the interests more of style than balance, it ought not to be controversial to remove some of the duplicated detail from the etymology paragraph and allow the History section to do its job. Vilĉjo 17:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I have read the para (after Vilĉjo's improvement), and excepting the question of removing etymology from the WP:LEAD altogether, I cannot see how the para could be reasonably shortened, and each section (Falklands and Malvinas) seems to have parallel structure, which seems fair, except for the statement about "first settlers", which itself is reasonable and informative (as long as it is correct, which I assume others have checked). The real question is whether the word origins belong in the lead section at all. I would think not. -- Gnetwerker 18:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I am increasingly inclined to agree. Both names are mentioned in line one, in a form which has consensus, and except for a handful of absolutists on either side that seems to be regarded as sufficient. Detailed explanations about origins are probably inappropriate in the lead. However, some stuff about origins was included in the original consensus version, so I want to discuss it here before doing anything substantial.

I would suggest removing paras 3 & 4 from the lead into a new "Name" section (to be the first after the lead itself). There may need to be some reworking of what exact details go into the "Name" section and which into the "History" section, given that they naturally overlap. (Even though it is not a current issue, the name "Sebald Islands" might want to go into the "Name" section.) One possible refinement of this is to retain in the lead (at the end of the first para) the sentence Some English-language media sources use the ISO designation of "Falkland Islands (Malvinas)". Anyone wish to comment on this? Vilĉjo 21:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I am very delighted to here there is some kind of "peace" and consesus here. To avoid another month of discussions, I'd suggest to my connationals not to try to put "Malvinas" before "Falklands" and we may end this argue and start a dialogue.

I strongly suggest to write the section here in the talk before putting it in the article, or we will have full-protected article and many accounts banned for breakin the three revert rule.Argentino (Talk cont.) 22:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll take the general silence on this suggestion to indicate a preference for preserving the peace of the status quo for the time being. Vilĉjo 21:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

There can be NO CONSENSUS to alter or impose a name upon the Falkland Islands. It is the sovereign power alone which decides it's name, and it is simply NOT acceptable to include imposed names in the first line! IT MUST BE REMOVED! The Falkland Islands is the ONLY name for the territory in question. It is fine to mention alternatives within the text, as is catered for in Para 3, but NOT under any circumstances as the article currently reads. The current first line is simply unacceptable, and MUST be altered. WP has no right to reach "consensus" on the name of a territory.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.226.72 (talk • contribs) suspected sockpuppet of indefinitely blocked user Gibraltarian (UTC)

I'm not going to write the accusation against Verres, but maybe "Cicero and his friends" can help you:

1. Primum non nocere.
2. Pacta sunt servanda.
3. Quosque tondim, Catilina, abuteris patientia nostra?

Resuming:
We were OK until you came here to argue, so please don't do it again. If you have anything to say, create an account. Argentino 18:10, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.' --Gibnews 22:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

My two cents (which have nothing to do with the debate!)

Came across this article, not sure how, saw some technical issues, but after reading the talk page I thought I should leave a note to explain my edits. They're not related to the name debate AT ALL, and I've really kept it in mind so as not to affect the issue in any way. There are only five tweaks:

• Split the first sentence into two, as it was too long. Only language change is "South America, and consisting" to "South America. They consist".
• Changed "km" to "kilometres" (it's customary to use the same standard for metric/imperial measures i.e. if you use "miles", you say "kilometres" (and vice-versa if you use abbreviations)
• Changed "with a number of smaller islands" to "with about 700 smaller islands" (slightly shorter, plus it's more specific and helps if you're only reading the first paragraph.)
• Flipped the terms "Falkland Islands" and "The islands" in the History section. (Again, custom - if the section were to stand on it's own, you would want the location identified right off the top.)(Plus, since I was there, I capitalised "Kingdom" in the Wikilink.)
• Changed "The islands" to "The Falkland Islands" at the start of the Geography section (same rationale as above)

So, do what you will with these. As I hinted in the edit summary, I've got no reason to step into this debate. I just wanted to fix what I thought were a few technical issues. (Although, for what it's worth, as a non-involved third party - i.e. not British, not Argentinian - I think you've done a good job of writing the first paragraph in a neutral manner. The only change I might suggest would be to change "also called the Malvinas" to "also known as the Malvinas". It's a personal style thing, and I think that it implies a greater depth of feeling to both names. --Ckatz 04:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)