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Revision as of 10:33, 16 August 2012

Deletion review for Moral and national education

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Moral and national education. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review.

Talkback template

Lucretius/Sir Gawain McGarson

What is the appropriate noticeboard for reporting that a blocked user is abusing the privilege of editing his talk page in the appeal process? The appeal guidelines require that you understand that what you did was inappropriate for this site, and confirm that you won't do it again. No appeal template has been posted, and he's been using the page for personal attack or to play games and make a point, which the appeal guidelines specifically caution against.

What he says about you is typical of his rhetoric: there's never anything wrong with what he does, it's just that everybody else is incompetent, or is motivated by vile preoccupations, or is out to get him because only he has any standards. It's also typical of him to call consensus among multiple editors "gangland style edits". In referring to User:Akhilleus, an admin who contributed a comment to the SPI, the user has linked to User:Achilles, an indefinitely blocked sockpuppet—an error, or a deliberate smear? At any rate, characteristic of this editor.

After spending a couple of days blaming others, he's now trying to tone down his rhetoric and justify his sockpuppets as "satire." Of what? Good faith? If he had said something like "I really didn't think I was violating sock policy, and editing Misplaced Pages is important to me, so I'm happy to confine myself to a single identity and feel I deserve another chance," I'd have been sympathetic. But his response to the block is to attack others, engage in self-aggrandizement, and confirm that he's been playing games for other editors to figure out. He's demonstrating why so many of us find him disruptive. Is he allowed to keep doing that forever?

Sorry to burden your talk page with this, but I didn't know what should happen next. Thanks again for your patience with such a complex case. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:45, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

• No problem, always fine to drop me a note. I've asked someone uninvolved to review. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:50, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

• After reviewing, I see that he has been blocked but received no block notice which is customary with socks...usually with the presumption that they may still control the master account and we issue the block notice there. In this case, I think that the notice should be issued which outlines his appeal process. He states that he is readying his appeal but doesn't know how to proceed.."I'll start assembling my case here, in no particular order, until I'm ready to appeal the decision. I haven't yet found a way to email key figures at WP about this case but I hope to do so soon." The notice serves to start that process and inform him.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Actually, there is a notice of sorts with link on the Master page, which is the norm. I told him in the SPI he could ask for an unblock but needed to provide a rationale, as his constant changing of names without properly linking and some overlap looks like avoiding scrutiny to me, and still does. If he wants to get unblocked, the others will stay blocked, and if he changes names he needs to be clear about it so there isn't the appearance of improper action. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:22, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I've made a proposal on the user's current talk page (it's in the drawer) that I'd like admins to review. This follows up a comment by Obsidian Soul. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:54, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem with the unblock with assurances that the account won't be confused again, such as your idea of keeping the one account only. (we would note the final agreement in his SPI archive). I'm not sure about the other issues, since that isn't the reason I blocked him, although they may be part of the problem that led to this mess, I have no idea. I recommend asking an objective and experienced admin with SPI familiarity to review. I prefer an outsider since I made the block. Either User:The Bushranger, User:Beeblebrox, or User:JamesBWatson are good examples of admins that I think would be firm but fair here. As for Elen mentoring, I don't see that happening because Arb eats up so much time, but maybe another can be found. No need for a mentor to be an admin, just experienced and level headed. Keep in mind, this is all moot if the editor doesn't agree to the terms first, but I won't stand in the way of any proposal that another admin and the editor agree to. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I do understand and agree that the indefinite block is justified by the rules on sockpuppetry. I was just trying to look at options, if an admin were considering unblocking him. As Akhilleus pointed out in the SPI, the use of serial socks by this user is hard to separate from disruptive behavior, because it's in returning to contentious articles under a different name that he violates "clean start" guidelines. He knew the rules and deliberately tried to evade them. I would hope that he wouldn't be unblocked unless he makes a positive appeal not based on "it's everybody else's fault". Cynwolfe (talk) 18:03, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I suggest approaching him and seeing if he is agreeable before contacting another admin, and you are free to tell anyone I am agreeable under reasonable restrictions. My goal isn't to prevent him from editing, it is to prevent him from being disruptive. Hopefully, he can do that without keeping the block. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:27, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I looked at this at Cynwolfe's request, and I certainly wouldn't allow an unblock at the moment. If someone talks him down off the Reichstag and gets him to change out of the Spiderman costume, then maybe something could be worked out. As it is, playing whack-a-sock seems the more likely outcome. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:32, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I didn't think it would be coming today, that is for sure. I still hold hope that offering hope can result in an unblock, if the user can agree to some realistic terms. I've already applied the stick, some might say rather boldly since some of the accounts were linked. I'm hoping a carrot might help calm them down a bit and provide some direction. Otherwise, we end up playing whack-a-mole anyway, which is the least desirable outcome. But it is up to them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Baiting blocks

Since you deal with block a lot, I was wondering if you could offer an opinion at WP:VPI#Baiting blocks. Ryan Vesey 20:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Dennis. Ryan Vesey 20:33, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if it wasn't the answer you were looking for. Baiting is something we have to keep in mind when applying other policies, but it would be very hard, if not impossible, to regulate. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:03, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

It didn't need to be the answer I was looking for. I referenced myself that it would be near impossible to regulate. Ryan Vesey 21:04, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I know, you are always neutral in how you point me toward a page, something I note and appreciate. I think many, if not most admins count for it. The key is presenting that evidence before the block, which is a timing issue. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:06, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Likewise, I appreciate that I can ask for your opinion and know that I will be receiving a neutral one. Ryan Vesey 21:13, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Did you happen to see the mess at here, here, and here? I suppose that is part of why baiting blocks wouldn't work. In most cases, taking the bait results in setting the bait and when emotions flare the comments are usually made in hot-hotheadedness rather than in malice. Ryan Vesey 12:39, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

"Walking away" is a fine art and a problem solver, but not everyone can do it. Worm isn't a block happy guy so I trust his judgement. Once you get the bit, you will find you need to walk away sooner, however, as you get zero slack. Check my archives, or even this very page below. My weakness isn't being attacked by others (it is so very easy to ignore personal attacks against myself, like water on a duck's back) but is watching others being attacked, which does piss me off. I've also learned that as an admin, I can never use humor to defuse a situation because someone will take it wrong. It just doesn't work as an admin. I learned that the hard way as well. Heated situations take dry, straight forward responses that no one can misjudge. Other responses tend to cause more drama. Right or wrong, that is the usual outcome. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:17, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Revdelete

I sort of circumvented process here, but can you revdelete Electronic Instrument System? See the talk page. Ryan Vesey 21:12, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

• I'm working it there, not sure if revdel is the right solution or not, need to view the original source, etc. On it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:17, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

So, you can't be emailed?

So, you can't be emailed here? Why not?

No matter how stupid or annoying the person you are dealing with is, please try to avoid leaving comments like, "I'm sure that attitude works great for you in the real world, too."

It's a personalisation of them (or you) that delivers nothing.

I was going to email this to you, but I couldn't. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

• Of course I can be emailed. I get at least 6 a day here. I just tested, I can even email myself. And you are free to disagree, but the persons comments were more than a little rude, and they needed reminding that here, just like in the real world, when you insult people, they aren't inclined to be as helpful. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:44, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
• Ok, granted that I am usually a little nicer, but I felt the situation warranted it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:11, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, the "email this user" link didn't seem to be there yesterday. Although possibly I just missed it or my crappy web browser was being weird. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 10:46, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• • Looking back a day later, I was a little more pissy than I should have been. I don't get that way when people attack me and find those attacks easy to ignore, but not when people attack other editors. Some kind of paternal reaction I suppose. They were still over the line, but I didn't need to be so snippy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:49, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Tree

I look forward to the removal of the editing block on Tree tomorrow. I was responsible for the complete rewrite of the article but took no part in the edit warring. The main protagonist raised certain points about the article some of which were valid and I have tried to address them by editing the version I retained in my userspace here. When I can do so I intend to insert these paragraphs into the article. The alterations are mainly in the lead and first section. I have included a host of references because he was disputing some definitions I gave such as that a sapling was a young tree.

I anticipate there may be further dispute about the article as Mark Marathon stated after his list of objections - "And this is just from the first three paragraphs. The entire article is at least as flawed. Literally two out of every three sentences has a serious problem .... and most of it is stylistically crude." I think it is a pity that he takes this view because I took a lot of trouble writing the article and had already nominated it for GA. I have subsequently withdrawn the nomination as being unlikely to succeed under the present circumstances. I plan to nominate it again if things settle down. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:33, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• Hopefully, there will continue to be good faith discussion after it goes unprotected. If it gets problematic, let me know and I can review and perhaps help mediate. As I said, a core article like that should be a GA, we certainly are capable of this as a group. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:43, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

re: ?

this. I wanna make everyone be M'F'ing NICE to each other ... OR ELSE!!!!! — Ched :  ?  12:15, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• The Summer of Love™ at RfA has been a pleasant change and an eye opener, that is for sure. It is one reason I've gotten so involved at RfA, to help in whatever small way I can. I have found that a positive contribution is quite contagious sometimes. I won't hold that answer against him, I used to think the same thing, that the process was broken, until I realized it was really us that was broken. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

yes .. and very well said. — Ched :  ?  14:46, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/WHJG-LP‎

Hey Dennis, the nominator of the above linked AfD has said he won't object to an early close of the AfD, so since we have an almost SNOW keep consensus (the nominator is the lone "Delete"), could you early close the AfD, please? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 13:29, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• He states he isn't withdrawing his nom, might be a bit premature to close as snow, even though the outcome is clearly going to be to "keep". I would recommend just letting it run or letting a few more keeps, to be consistent with the idea that AfD is a discussion, not just a vote. This is just a procedural opinion and again, I think we both know what the outcome will be but it won't hurt it running a couple of days. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:33, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Okie Dokie, when he said he wouldn't object, I thought "why wait?", but I don't mind waiting. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 13:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Hey Dennis, been 5 days on this AfD and we have added another delete !vote, but the person who posted that !vote has stopped communicating on the AfD, so I am unsure what to think on that one. No comments have been made in more than 24 hours, can this go to an early close? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 15:49, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
      • If you do close the AfD early, I have posted a note at the bottom of the page requesting IRWolfie's !vote be struck for stubbornly and blindly disregarding established solid consensus. I have proven it, backed it up with sub-sections of WP:N and part of WP:OUTCOMES and he continues to disregard it. Obviously not being constructive. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 22:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
        • This is why I don't like closing early, as other viewpoints get aired out. I wouldn't worry so much about him disagreeing, he is actually a good guy, even if I disagree with him on this one. My understanding is that all tv stations and radio stations that are govt. licensed are considered automatically notable. Like I said before, the outcome is already certain, and now closing it early is certainly not going to happen, but it isn't a big deal. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• You may wish to have another read of the AfD (and here: User_talk:IRWolfie-#Poor_Man.27s_Talk_Back); the attention of an uninvolved admin would be welcome. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I was referring more to Neutralhomer's lack of assuming good faith and the number of accusations he has made about me (about a rather unimportant AfD), rather than the content discussion. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

D'oh. (no pun intended) That kind of discussion serves no purpose on a talk page anyway, if an RfC is needed, then someone should start one, but hammering on a talk page is fruitless, regardless of which side of the debate you are on. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The triple mop of mopping
	Hi, I thought you could do with a barnstar in recoqnition of all the recent work you have done as an admin (or at least all that I've seen in the last while), and in recoqnition that you always are levelheaded. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you! I'm not sure if I'm always levelheaded, but I do try. Thanks for the barnstar, they do make a difference :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Well if you aren't always, I've yet to see it :). IRWolfie- (talk) 19:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

YRC

Just a FYI, after promising nt to edit articles he comes on after 3 days and ... and he tells me im nown for something?? Arbcom for him is quite clearly the venue me thins..Lihaas (talk) 03:19, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Sorry for the inconvenience. Kindly, Anderson - what's up? 05:15, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The Fortune Cookie Barnstar

The Fortune Cookie Barnstar is under construction. This is a prototype.

Last night I received the following Fortune Cookie: You have a natural grace and great consideration of others. Lucky #'s 22, 6, 34, 56, 11, 10

I think it was meant for you. ```Buster Seven Talk 15:11, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

• • Ha, thanks Buster, I certainly appreciate the kindness! Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:33, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Speechless

Dear Dennis - Thank you for your work. I find it terribly sad that USER:Tim riley has decided to leave. I just don't know what to say. —MistyMORN 16:11, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

• We might need to give him a day and perhaps someone who knows him can ping him with a note of encouragement. I've commented at the ANI. This is what I thought from the talk page as well, as I tend to actually like infoboxes, but hate it when someone seems to be intentionally disruptive by picking the worst time to climb the hill and make a stand. Seems WP:POINTy to me, and I would hate to lose an exceptional editor because of it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:33, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I think several of us are in supportive contact with Tim offline. I have blanked my own talk page, both to continue my solidarity with Tim in silence and, frankly, out of personal exasperation following a series of personal attacks which seem to be considered trivial (I have no intention to start a further ANI case; that's just not my style and I would be out of my depth). For now, I will just continue with my work on HIV/AIDS etc to support Doc James's initiatives . —MistyMORN 08:04, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

(watching) I saw the blanking but misunderstood, I was afraid you would leave also. Perhaps say positively that it is an act of solidarity. - I felt sick once here (see top of my talk), I know what you are talking about. - People are more important than infos and boxes, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:15, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Gerda! It's really good to have your moral support and understanding. The sort of aggressive infantilism you yourself have undergone and allude to isn't worthy of this great project, Misplaced Pages. It seems willingness to be a standing target for bad eggs is a sort of unofficial eligibility criterion for serious contributors here. At present, I feel lost for words. —MistyMORN 08:51, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

As I said below, sometimes there is no easy answer. I've developed a very thick skin around here, but not everyone can do that, I understand. Hopefully things will cool down and he will come back, and a real discussion can take place. Meanwhile, Andy/pig is not faring as well at ANI. Good people can disagree, but it disturbs me that some people will choose the worst possible time to make a stand, seemingly intentionally just to be disruptive/soapboxing about their pet issue. This isn't the first time I've supported a ban for Andy, who can be a good contributor but spends too much time trying to make WP:POINTs. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:52, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

FF

Just rolled your hat -- had my response in edit buffer -- talk page revocation seems a little hasty to me. Nobody Ent 18:25, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I'll revert the edit if you feel strongly about it. Nobody Ent 18:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

No, hatting wasn't a big deal to me, I'm 50/50 on it. The talk page access was due to a continued and escalating amount of disruption, taking the whole affair in mind. In truth, I'm probably doing him a favor before he goes off the deep end and gets indef'ed. So I agree that revoking was a strong reaction, but I'm not convinced it was hasty, as it seemed clear his intention was solely to continue soapboxing and disrupting, imo. As always, any admin is free to reverse me, and I take no offense if you ask someone to. I'm not the law here, just the janitor. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Nah, they can email someone if they wanna get it back. Thanks. Nobody Ent 18:53, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Kindly, Anderson - what's up? 19:57, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification

Thanks for the clarification at SPI, I really appreciate that you were willing to explain some points to me. I am now better informed than I was a day ago, so thanks for that Dennis! ~ GabeMc 21:28, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

• Not a problem. It is complicated, and even with my 15 years of network experience, I still learn many new things a day. The privacy policy is one of those things that is designed to protect the good guys and the bad guys, but it is necessary. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:23, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

So what exactly are the risks associated with indef blocks on IPs? Do we risk blocking innocent and uninvolved editors? ~ GabeMc 01:49, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

If you indef block an IP, and it rotates to someone new in a week or month or year, then that new person isn't able to edit. Since one of the pillars is "anyone can edit" (excepting obvious trouble makers) then this is inconsistent with the WP:Five pillars, a pain in the ass for the new editor (who won't know how to overcome the block), and ineffective at blocking the trouble maker. To me, there is never a reason to indef. Maybe a 1 year block for a known stable IP, like a marketing company that keeps spamming, but certainly not a dynamic IP or questionable static IP, such as business cable, which can rotate the IP with a simple phone call. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:58, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Sure, that makes a lot of sense now, thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. Maybe there should be a link to the block appeal process directly on the first screen a blocked user sees when they attempt to edit. It could include, "if you think you've been blocked in error, please click here" or something to that effect. That may reduce the number of legitimate users discouraged by stale blocks. Also, what then is the proper use of a range block? ~ GabeMc 02:07, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

For most blockes, except socks (ironically) a block template is used with links. The SPI tools put a sock template, but no block template. I always wondered about that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:09, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

ANI

Thanks for the notice on my talk page. I do feel that your wording was a bit too strong for my liking. I just wanted to let you know so that you didn't feel this was personal.--Kindly, Anderson - what's up? 21:57, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Block

Some new editor User:Vic1093 keeps vandalising the David Rudisha article. How do I stop him? Hairgelmare (talk) 01:42, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

• I've asked him why he keeps removing material on this talk page. What he is doing doesn't seem like vandalism as we define it here, but not sure why he keeps deleting material. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:54, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

OK! Thank you for your kind assistance. Hairgelmare (talk) 02:07, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

it was simply because some of the information provided didnt seem to have any logical inclusion into the page — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vic1093 (talk • contribs) 02:10, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

• • If there is some controversy over any material, you both need to actually discuss it on the talk page of the article. WP:BRD is worth a read as well, as it generally outlines the way we deal with minor disagreements on content. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:31, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

AN/I Notice

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Your actions were mentioned in a roundabout way. Thought this proper. Arkon (talk) 02:33, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Tree

I don't believe any consensus has been reached on which version of Tree to retain. Mark Marathon has returned the page to its original version. Is this what you had in mind as the future of the article? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:59, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

• Dennis, in my opinion this revert referred to above is a continuation of the edit war for which Mark Marathon was blocked. I also thought that the talk page conversation indicated a motion forward, not backward--a revert is counterproductive. I note that Cwmhiraeth's edits to the article indicate an editor's willingness to work on the article, an attitude I find lacking in the other editor's blind revert which fails to take into account the problems raised with the now-current version raised on the talk page and elsewhere. Drmies (talk) 06:21, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Request for Admin assistance

I find myself forced to request Admin assistance (whether from yourself or from a colleague). Br'er Rabbit has posted content that I find deeply offensive, as well as being completely unfounded. The offensive material was framed in a highly personal idiolect which I was blindly expected to understand. I requested him to remove the offending remarks, including a completely unfounded accusation of trolling (I cannot recall any interaction with this user outside the Georg Solti infobox dispute). Since my requests remained unanswered, I decided a sensible course of action would be to remove the most offensive and upsetting parts myself, including a serious allegation of "trolling" , as well as other generally offensive content and accusation of "shite-stirring" , and allusion to "wankery", "trolling" and "badgering", etc. . Sadly, my quiet removal of the offending remarks was almost immediately undone . I then posted a polite but firm warning on Br'er Rabbit's talk page, explaining that I take this matter very seriously (Warning regarding personal attacks and other offensive content), which was greeted by the accusation "You are simply being disruptive."

I wanted to explain the context, but in this precise moment I'm so am so angry and hurt by the entire situation that I can't see straight and m temporarily withdrawing from Misplaced Pages. —MistyMORN 17:20, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I looked into this as an uninvolved and impartial observer and I can't find anything that would require admin assistance or intervention. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 08:30, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, "Neutral"", but I feel sorry for Misplaced Pages and its working environment. Personally, I consider accusation of "trolling" to be a serious personal attack. The other content of the diffs was clearly offensive.

FYI, I found your snap judgement regarding a recently retired contributor who was the prime mover of 16 FA and 9 GA (a tally which modestly doesn't include FA/GA where his copyediting was instrumental) to be painfully insensitive and far from impartial.

Anyway, I certainly didn't come to Misplaced Pages for the banter. —MistyMORN 11:34, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a rude place sometimes, much more so that I prefer, although I've developed a thick skin and become tolerant of a degree of it in otherwise productive conversations, simply because the act of correcting it can cause more drama than ignoring it sometimes. Being an admin, I have people call me all kinds of lovely things, but it genuinely rolls off my back. It does bother me to see others get called trolls or worse, but there is only so much that can be done. I see BR is having a discussion on his talk page with someone else, who is also addressing the issue. I can't insta-block over incivility like this, as that causes more drama and always explodes into controversy and yet more name calling. It is often a no win scenario, and everyone walks away with some mud on them. That is part of the challenge of WP:WEP, trying to find constructive solutions. Sometimes there is no good solution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Dennis. That's a good reply in my book. —MistyMORN 11:52, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

IRWolfie- (talk) 23:45, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

VQuakr (talk) 23:48, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 13:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

• Replied there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:44, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi

Hi Dennis. Could you take a look at my latest comment on Bbb23's talk page. There seems to be some sock-peppery going on here. Kurdo777 (talk) 23:04, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Block question

I blocked User:Mertface for 24 hours. I have now changed the block so he cannot edit his own Talk page. How do I "notice" that on his Talk page? I would think at a minimum he needs more instructions on how to appeal when he's blocked from his Talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:10, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• After I use the regular block template in TW, I just make a note below saying "I've also removed your talk page access because ...." There isn't a template for this, since they don't need the links to unblock, since they can't edit. Normally, I dont take away talk page access unless they abuse the talk page, but there are some cases where it gets taken away instantly, but rare........ Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:16, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks. I removed Talk page access because they removed the block notice - twice. I warned them the first time, but they did it again, so ...--Bbb23 (talk) 01:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• Another option is {{subst:User:Bwilkins/talkpagelocked|sig=}} I just learned, on IRC.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:35, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• I had already put a note on the user's Talk page, but I added Bwilkins's template because it has appeal instructions. Thank whomever told you on IRC (yeah, yeah).--Bbb23 (talk) 01:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• {{Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is rarely used, but I've seen it used before.--Jasper Deng (talk) 04:18, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Ah, and I notice the second block template under TW ->Warn ->Blocking ->{{uw-blocknotalk}} But that only works if you start out with talk page revoked (rare), and is a generic template. Maybe Bbb23 should ask the TW devs to add something like Jasper Deng's example at the bottom of the block options in Twinkle. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:16, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• The template Jasper refers to is pretty startling (SO red). Also, it would be good if it appeared in this list. I haven't been using Twinkle for posting block notices. When I looked at it now, I only see one possibility - can I add more (didn't see anything obvious in preferences)?--Bbb23 (talk) 15:28, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

TW has a bunch of different block templates. Press that block button and they will pop up :p Don't feel bad, it took me two months to figure that out. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:46, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see it. The block button is in the User drop-down, not in TW.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

TW ->Warn->Blocking Not the most intuitive place to put it, which is why it took me two months. The Blocking option is the last option in the first section of Warn. It is templates only, you still block from the other menu. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Stupid. I saw that before you told me, but I only saw one template and no arrow to drop down. This time I clicked in the box, and it dropped down. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:28, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I told you, I did the exact same thing. Major palmface. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:56, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Not that it will matter for a long time, but does Twinkle automatically update or do you need to install "admin mode"? Ryan Vesey 18:39, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Automatic. I've haven't updated Twinkle since it was called "Friendly". :) It is an externally controlled script. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Warren Benbow

Care to take a look, or pass it along? This page is currently being edited by the subject and there might be copyright concerns. I'd dig into it, but I'm a bit busy at work. Ryan Vesey 18:57, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• For now, I just put a COI tag on it. Will check later, I'm doing construction at the house, feel like someone beat me with a 2x4, long day. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:54, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
  • I hope your house turns out well. Take some pictures and upload them to DIY. Ryan Vesey 01:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

***Actually, this is just a gazebo. A few years ago I did buy and completely gut a 3700 sq. ft. lake front home, replaced every wall, ceiling, floor, wire, pipe, all plumbing, cabinets, window and poured 110 yards of concrete and added a 24x36ft garage and a new boat ramp. THAT was a project. :) I still have that house, but I don't live there, I expected to sell it but the housing market went to hell, so it just sits empty. This is just a 18x20ft place to put the smoker and grill, but I'm doing all of it myself, and I'm not as young as I used to be. Pretty close to done, just need to install the wire screen and trim work, wire up all the lights and outlets, and dig a trench to lay the underground power line to the building. About three or four days work, but I'm working full time, so it will take a couple weeks to finish it up with everything else I have going on. I stay busy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• • • • Referring to a smoker and a grill as separate things, spoken like a real american. Wood or electric? And that house, how could you not live there? Ryan Vesey 02:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
        • Propane, same as the grill. I added it to the Smoking (food) article some time back. It has a wood box at the bottom to let the wood smolder. Insanely good smoker. Think I paid just 100 bucks for it at Lowes a few years back, use it regularly. The propane makes the temperature very even. The grill is a standard grill, but looking to maybe build a custom job later. Again, I always have a project or two going on. :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:58, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

User:HeCameFromTheShadows

Did you see his talkpage? I requested speedy dlete as its only bent on attacking you. Not sure why its still around.Lihaas (talk) 23:08, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Also the talk page of the other sock admits hes been on here for years. Can we use that to check for sleepers (though he could have eft the country if its an IP search)Lihaas (talk) 23:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I find it more amusing than anything, but I'm not one to take ranting like that personal. It just rolls off like water on a ducks back. Anyone that matters knows better. You can ask another uninvolved admin to revoke his talk page access, but since he is trying to attack me, it wouldn't look proper for me to do that. Part of being an admin is having people attack you in these crass ways. Honestly, it is of no consequence to me. Oh, and they might want to indef the puppet master, User:FerrerFour while they are at it. Two weeks won't be enough here I fear. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:06, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Looks like everything worked out. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:54, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Removing block notices/unblock requests

If a blocked editor retires like at User talk:Carthage44 do the block/unblock notices need to be restored? Ryan Vesey 01:19, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

If they are indef'ed, retiring is a bit, well, non-applicable. As long as the sockpuppet tag is on the user page, I wouldn't worry about it. They are just saying they aren't going to appeal the block. Which means they are going to leave, or just create a new sockpuppet. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Re: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/SimonKnowsAll - What now?

I'm still pretty new. This is my first report of a suspected SOCK. Ironic because I was doing invites to the Teahouse. I look at a new user's talk and contribs to personalize my invites. I was surprised when I saw that the first activity was a !vote in an AfD. Usually it's the new user finding his or her first article up for deletion. When I looked at the AfD discussion, the Keep votes didn't make sense so I looked at others who supported Keep. The Investigation (case) to create or re-open format was logical although I chose to link to contribs rather than diffs; I judged that they told the story better. I was uncertain about requesting CheckUser so chose to let whichever clerk did the review to make that call.

I do have a few questions for you:

1. Do I need to do anything more? What?
2. Is it appropriate for me to check other articles created by User:SimonKnowsAll for obvious promotion? Or is that done automatically as a follow-up to the SPI?
3. What could I have done better to ease your work in SPI?

I'll watch here for answers. Thanks for your efforts and taking some time to answer my questions, DocTree (talk) 04:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• It is being further checked, but a bunch of socks are about to be perma-blocked. Usually, a single check is all that is needed, but there must be some technical reason DQ is doing some extra checks. Good find, we will mop up the rest after all is checked. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:52, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Block review

Hello Dennis. Three days ago you asked me for an independent review of a block. Sorry for the delay in responding, which has been partly due to the fact that, for personal reason, I have had very little time available for editing Misplaced Pages in the last few days, and partly because, when I did manage to find time, I was thwarted by internet connection failure, apparently die to problems at my ISP. I have looked at the case, and I have now written a comment about it. I originally envisioned the comment as a message to post on the talk page of the blocked user, but I'm not sure whether that is the best thing to do with it, so I have put it at User:JamesBWatson/Sir Gawain McGarson Block review. It can be copied to elsewhere if that seems appropriate. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• It might be helpful to post that on his talk page, as I told him I would get another admin to consider unblocking his current account. Thanks for taking the time, I appreciate the effort. It was a pain to clerk that case at SPI, and I'm sure to review it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• I went ahead and just linked it over. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• Thanks for moving that over. I'm not shocked by your findings, but due to the complexity of the case, felt a review was required in the interest of fairness and completeness. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Alternate Acct info request

I seem to remember that User:RightCowLeftCoast is an alternate account, possibly of an Admin. How do I check something like that? I just need to verify my memory. Promise:No dust storm. ```Buster Seven Talk 15:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• User account "RightCowlLeftCoast" is not registered. is what that link says. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:21, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I noticed that. I have changed to the right name. Buster Seven Talk 15:29, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I looked for "what links here" and didn't find anything interesting. You could always just politely ask them. :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

To RfA or not to RfA....

Hi Dennis,

Have to say I'm very impressed with what you've achieved since you've become an Admin.

I don't know how this happened, but I seem to have been suckered into doing serious work on Misplaced Pages. I've been editing for years, contributing to AfDs over the past year, I've put up a few articles for GAN, and now I've got WP:ANI on my watchlist. I always thought I'd never want to be an admin on here for a few simple reasons :

• I'm an admin / developer (and a long standing and respected one, if I do say so myself) somewhere else and do all sorts of other things in my spare time
• I wouldn't be able to commit the time to properly deal with the cross-examination a RfA candidate faces
• I don't particularly fancy dealing with having to pull apart two people edit warring over some Middle-East related article and being threatened as a result.
• I'd feel "committed" to the place and be unable to lose interest and go elsewhere

Having said that, a few times over the last week I've found myself saying "I'd do that, but I haven't got the bit to do so". One was a request to empty the WP:RPP queue, another was an obvious case of vandalism that I was absolutely certain warranted an indef block (which indeed happened), another was somebody looking into why a CSD occurred. That makes me wonder if it is worth looking at an RfA in the long term.

I don't think I'd stand a good chance at RfA right now, as I'm relatively unknown and haven't got a proven track record at anything, which, looking through the pile of recent reviews seems to result in a lot of "Oppose - wouldn't know him from a hole in the ground". Then again, I haven't done anything worse than mild quarrels with people, which I tend to drop. I think it's certainly necessary getting some "street cred" (ie: spotting vandlism, good calls on AfDs, regular contributions to ANI) for at least a couple of months before making any serious decisions.

Of course, in a couple of months I might have lost interest. Who knows?

Any thoughts on the above? --Ritchie333 15:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Interesting, I see around 3000 edits is all from 12/2005 to now, but mainly in the last two months. Edit count for articles is only 22% , which is always a problem if it is lower than 40%. I think you might want to hang around and edit regularly for another 3 months, then get a formal review, which will put you another 3-6 months out. I agree that you would likely have a snowball's chance at RfA today, based solely on the statistics: you don't have enough of them, and article contribs are too low. But the more important issue is, is Misplaced Pages something you really want to do regularly, either as an admin or as an editor? Only you (and time) can tell that. Before you can convince others that you can be an asset with the bit, you have to convince yourself that it is something you want to do and it will benefit you in some way. I wouldn't worry about people knowing you, as your work will speak for itself. Focus on some article content, get those numbers up, try and see if consistently editing here on a month basis is right for you. You might find you enjoy that without the bit. I had 18,000 edits before seeking the bit, which is higher than most, but I was happy just editing for years. Most RfA candidates have at least 5k, and those with 10k have a better chance, as they have had the opportunity to learn and apply the policies here, which is the foundation of what being an admin is about. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:02, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for the quick response, Dennis. What's basically driven me to think about this is instances like WP:ANI#Viktoria Bolonina where I've called out a bad CSD and been a bit annoyed I'm not on the same playing field as the other guys in the conversation, as they can make a judgement call on the deleted article, and I can only take guesses.

Actually, this is kind of what's driven me to finding out more about WP policies in the first place, as an internet forum I frequent fell foul of a possible questionable CSD some years back and most of the regulars now despise Misplaced Pages, so I've seen the collateral damage that probably goes unnoticed on here. I think that's what drives most of my recent motivation in this place.

Regarding the edit totals, most of the non-article ones are Articles for Creation reviews (which happen in the Misplaced Pages Talk namespace) and responses to them on my talk page, so I would say a lot of the non article edits are helping people. There tends to be quite a bit of a backlog, and it's not too much of a chore to explain WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV to newbies - it's kind of the "meat and potatoes" of Misplaced Pages, and I think it's quite hard for some newbies to "get it", but once they do, they can move on to greater things. Having said all of that, there's no point giving your opponents ammo if you don't need to, so I agree that working on the article space edits is a good plan. I have two GA reviews sitting in the pile (one's been there for 6 weeks), and I've got several more I want to have a crack at. Since I've spent time talking about FA reviews today in my attempts to bring the Pigsonthewing debate at ANI under control, I really should get one up to that status myself, first.

I certainly wasn't planning on putting in the RfA at least until next year, whatever the circumstances.

Anyway, thanks for your time - certainly something to think about. --Ritchie333 16:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Not a problem. Learning policies is tricky, as the written word is less important than the intent (hence the need for WP:IAR to normalize). As for collateral damage, I started WP:WEP with the goal of finding ways to minimize the damage and prevent as much as possible. As far as working with newbies, that is as good a purpose as can be found at Misplaced Pages, and is part of the Editor Retention program as well. Stop by and look around, you may find several who share your ideas. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:38, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Would you consider

Hi Dennis. I notice above that you gave a very accurate review, and wondered if you might consider adding yourself to Misplaced Pages:Request an RfA nomination? I believe having as many friendly faces up there as possible, and if you're willing to offer the odd review (I think I've worked it out as about one a week), then it would be appreciated. Also, if there's anyone you've got your eye on for adminship, we are running low. Worm(talk) 16:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• I probably should do that. I give a loooong review about once every week or two now, usually email via their request. I have a few that will be ready in 6 months, but none today. I did nom two this summer who made it, Bbb23 and Berean Hunter, but agree that more are needed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:10, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• Added myself. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

HarveyCarter

92.7.26.188 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is him back again. Do I need to open an SPI (you won't get much more information than you can see from the contribs yourself), or can I save time? More background on him available if needed..... His charm hasn't disappeared! 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 16:15, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• I just did a softblock for NPA, which is close enough for our purposes. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks. I'll go to RFPP if he comes back, in case you're not around. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 16:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Sounds like a good idea, you can always point here if he starts in with attacks as well. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:29, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• Since you're around according to my watchlist, semi-protection might be an idea due to 92.7.2.175 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Thanks. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 10:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Unprotection of Defacto's talk

I've sent the issue to ANI. Toddst1 (talk) 20:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Impressive kahunas. Nicely done. After this fiasco I chose to let other(s) take action. Toddst1 (talk) 05:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• Not a problem. I had already been researching the DeFacto case, so was familiar, and the geolocation and other evidence was pretty strong. I ended up blocking one more sock, and not blocking one that as accused as well. SPI blocks on behavior (which IS proper) is very tricky and not without risk, which may be why so few do it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 09:50, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Yadkin-Pee Dee River Basin

On 16 August 2012, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Yadkin-Pee Dee River Basin, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that places in the Yadkin-Pee Dee River Basin inspired locations in the 1960s sitcom The Andy Griffith Show? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Yadkin-Pee Dee River Basin. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your help with the DeFacto SPI. I really appreciate you taking the extra time to go through the logs, especially after the CU declined to do so.

Best,

GaramondLethe 01:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• I understand why he refused. Looong SPIs are a huge pain to go through. We love having 6 good diffs and a single paragraph and do the digging ourselves, which is why TLDR comes into play on longer ones, which tend to get overlooked for a while. I try to take on some of the longer ones because it is hard sometimes for editors to be pithy in these reports, not knowing what all is needed, or not needed. I'm very confident in the outcome, however, and spent time over a couple of days going over the data. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

6 good diffs and a single paragraph: So it was written, so it will be done (as I expect DeFacto will be back around sooner rather than later). Thanks for the tip! GaramondLethe 02:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Congrats on the DYK and your other accomplishments!

Drmies (talk) 02:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks Drmies. I don't get as much time to work on articles as I used to, but trying to work on quality. This recent stub Zingbot 3000 needs work, but I think it can be made to pass since he was at Comic Con, etc. And he was on again last night. Yes, I'm a Big Brother fan, about the only TV I watch. Shameful.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 09:56, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

SPI Close

Hi Dennis, Close Can I ask what is the conclusion - NB this diff? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:57, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• A combination of stale and WP:TLDR led to the conclusion that a a link wasn't going to be made. There is no prejudice to reopen the case if they come back, but keeping it short with a few diffs will make it much more likely for someone to take on the case. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 09:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)