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	Jerusalem is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 23, 2007.
Article milestones Date Process Result April 2, 2007 Peer review Reviewed April 21, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted April 28, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted August 7, 2008 Featured article review Demoted Current status: Former featured article

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Archived Talk about Jerusalem as capital of Israel may be found HERE

Template:WP1.0

To-do: E · H · W · RUpdated 2008-05-22 Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Expand : Culture section: Please add East Jerusalem institutions and history Verify : Please add reliable sources for all of the information

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28

This page has archives. Sections older than 20 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

"Unverifiable"

It is false to say that the muslims believe that the prophet ascended from the heavens from Dome of the Rock. According to Islamic scholars and traditions, the prophet ascended from the heavens from Al - Aqsa Mosque (Bait al Muqaddas)

"null and void" does not equate with successful de jure annexation

Partial revert by Hertz1888 http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Jerusalem&diff=499571659&oldid=499561809

From existing article source: 21 http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch12.pdf "In a resolution adopted on 1 December 2000, the Assembly determined that the decision of Israel to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration on the Holy City of Jerusalem was illegal and, therefore, null and void." Being "null and void" does not equate with a successful annexation. Readers should be fully informed of the actual de jure status talknic (talk) 09:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

It's apparently not entirely clear that there was an annexation. See Ian Lustick's article here for example. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:44, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, it might be prudent to check on whether the UNGA makes international law. (I don't think they do). Because they say something is illegal doesn't necessarily make it illegal. Hertz1888 (talk) 09:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Hertz1888 -- Uh? I believe year 2000 is after 1968 and UNSC Res 252.

UNGA resolutions can and do remind parties of International Law, the UN Charter, International Conventions, Conventions (according to ratification), all binding, and; UNSC resolutions, binding on UN Member States to whom their content is directed. In 2000 UNGA adopted a resolution to remind the parties concerned of the preceding UN Security Council Resolutions, being : 252 May 21 1968, 267 July 3 1969, 271 September 15 1969, 298 September 25 1971, 465 March 1 1980 (the Golan) and; 476 June 30 1980 which again reminds the party of International Law, previous UNSC Resolutions and the Fourth Geneva Convention by "Reaffirming", "Recalling" & reconfirming

1. Reaffirms the overriding necessity to end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem;

3. Reconfirms all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem have no legal validity and constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

talknic (talk) 14:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Hertz1888 -- Removal of "UNSC" from "The international community and the UNSC have"
The International Community is not the UNSC. The UNSC only has only 15 representative members. The International Community is the Comity of Nations. It includes states outside the UN.
This can be seen in the order in which states (such as Israel) become UN Members. 1) they declare. 2) they are recognized by the majority of the "comity of nations" (there is no vote, some UN Members don't recognize each other, they are never the less members because a majority of the Comity of Nations first recognized them before they could be recommended by the UNSC). 3) Recommended or not by the UNSC, by a vote, for admission to the UN. 4) Admitted or not by an UNGA vote, as UN Members.
talknic (talk) 15:01, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Irrelevant statement in leading sentence

The first sentence of the article states that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such." How is the bigoted opinion of a bunch of foreigners important enough to be mentioned in the first sentence? It is a bit of trivia that should be mentioned somewhere further down in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yehuditeman (talk • contribs) 04:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Yehuditeman - Uh? The following are UNSC resolutions based on the Law and UN Charter all of which existed before Israel was declared or became UN Member state. Israel obliged itself to adhere to the UN Charter and International Law, in their entirety. UNSC res 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968, 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969, 271 (1969) of 15 September 1969, 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971, 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980, 476 (1980) of 30 June 1980 and 478 (1980) 20 August 1980, UNSC Resolution 1860 (2009) -- talknic (talk) 09:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

At best, I'd say the contribution is soapboxing, at second best, trolling. With a few more contributions of that type, the user will be exiting the IP area with a boot so far up his arse he'll be smiling toecap.     ←   ZScarpia   22:18, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I too also wonder why Jerusalem's Misplaced Pages page says AT THE VERY TOP of the page in the VERY first sentence that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel when the White House of the United States does not recognize it as so? If the United States is Israel's closest ally and we do not recognize this to be true, why does this Misplaced Pages page say this? I donated $100 bucks to Misplaced Pages because I believed it to be neutral and unbiased towards any religion, political organization or bordered landmass. Yet here I see the very first thing is BLATANT pro-zionist propaganda. This is very disheartening and makes me question if this website has been operationally subverted by zionists.

Make no mistake I am neither pro-islamic, nor pro-jewish. I am neither pro Palestinian nor pro-Israeli. I hate both of these shitbags equally. What I do wonder is if Misplaced Pages is interested in truth and unbiased logic and rational discourse or if this website has been compromised and is no longer a reliable source of information. (75.181.132.184)

Sorry mate, but the USA does not decide what is or is not Israel's capital just as Israel does not decide what is or is not the USA's capital. Nor is the UN an impartial body, it is merely an amalgamation of the partialities of its members. Since each country decides itself what its capital should be, the current sentence - given its prominence within the article - comes across as rather petty/bitter and reflects badly on Misplaced Pages. By all means go on to mention that some people in the world do not like the fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital however that dislike does not change the fact it is the capital of Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.14.8 (talk) 12:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The job of editors is to neutrally reflect what reliable sources say on a subject. The Israeli government's position is that countries get to choose their own capitals. The international community reject that in the case of Jerusalem, their position being that no body can unilaterally change the status of that city. If you can't bear not to push the Israeli government's position as anything other than the Israeli government's position, find yourself somewhere else to contribute.     ←   ZScarpia   11:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Kiryat HaMemshala

Kiryat HaLeom project

the project of Kiryat HaLeom are planned to be finished in 20 years and including the all Government buildings and national institutions in one area. the israeli government signed an agreement with a Dutch architectural firm that will plan the whole area and finis him in 20 years process. At the same time an Israeli architects plans to rebellion of the project of entrance to the city in 5 years that should connect to Kiryat HaLeom from the northern side. a new government buildings that planned: Office of the Prime Minister, National Headquarters of the Israel Police, State Comptroller of Israel building, National Library of Israel, National Archives Building of israel, National Gallery building of Israel, and a building for the Israel guest House. a National boulevard will across the israeli parlament building to the National square including pedestrian streets and many parking spaces

פארוק (talk) 20:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Near Future projects

Two large projects funded by the Israeli government that planned to build on the southern promenade overlooking the Old City walls.

1 =>> World Bible Center - an international research and study of the bible.

2 =>> World Kabbalah Center - a world center to Kabbalah studies, copy of the Rabby Moshe Chaim Luzzatto Synagogue in Italy.

פארוק (talk) 11:59, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Did you even read my edit summary? You are adding material to an article that as 1) unsourced and 2) full of grammatical and other errors. Please read my message I left for you on your talk page and do us the favor of self-reverting. -asad (talk) 20:24, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Image Clutter

This article simply has too many images that are either not relevant to the section in which they are placed, poorly captioned, not staggered, or redundant and add no more real encyclopedic value to the article. I plan to tidy it up per WP:MOSIMAGES here shortly. It also might be worthwhile to create a unified Jerusalem gallery in Commons that can be linked in this article. Any input is welcome. -asad (talk) 12:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I think its a great idea to create a unified Jerusalem Gallery --SajjadF (talk) 13:15, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made the changes. I hope this will enable to the article to read, flow and look better. -asad (talk) 01:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Moving some stuff around for readability and flow is one thing. Adding new pics with contentious captions like you did with the US consulate and the panorama from Gilo is quite another. I can't imagine you didn't think those would be objected to.

How about you do some smaller incremental edits so we can discuss the problematic bits as they arise? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 06:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I hope this are not deleting information for delet Israel also ! Thank you very much !. פארוק (talk) 07:00, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree some pictures (police hq etc) are unnecessary. On the other hand, a picture of the Orient House could be in there somewhere. --Dailycare (talk) 08:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Until now I can not understand why a capital city like Jerusalem can not have an importent pictures in the beginning of this article and why they are in small size in a small chapter, or maybe it stems from political considerations and before of that have been deleted here entire rows, some of them that I wrote. פארוק (talk) 08:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Just wanted to pop in to remind everyone here of WP:AGF. For what it's worth, the image clutter is a legitimate issue. MOS:IMAGES says that we are to, "Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other, and between an image and an infobox or similar." This is exactly what it being done in large portions of this article. While all pictorial contributions are valued, I would encourage everyone to consider whether there may be more appropriate places to put them. I'm only passing through, but those are my two cents. Evanh2008 08:45, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

NMMNG, besides the reference to Gilo and the caption about the US Consulate, could you tell me what else you found to be contentious? -asad (talk) 12:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Seriously, a blanket revert over a single caption? Most of these useless images were added over the last weeks, so if somebody wants to invoke BRD it would be to remove all that clutter. But I guess we cant have some people from muslim countries are deleting information about israel. Otherwise they might delet Israel also. nableezy - 15:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Like I said, moving some stuff around in the article is fine. Removing pictures that were added recently is also fine. Replacing a bunch of stuff and adding obviously contentious captions with no discussion on an article like this is just looking for trouble. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't see your point. Is there something I added that shouldn't be there? Surely the "contentious" captions can be easily cited. I just don't see anything in your statements that justify a blanket revert as you did. -asad (talk) 17:09, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Other than the two captions I already mentioned, you also added a picture of the Orient House with a contentious caption (my suggested alternative: "The Orient House, where the PLO conducted diplomatic contacts in violation of the Oslo Accords"), you removed a picture of the Wailing Wall for some reason, and at least 2-3 others. It's hard to follow all the changes when you make a couple dozen over practically the whole article.

Make smaller edits and I won't have to revert the whole thing. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Is that really your suggested caption for a picture of the Orient House? nableezy - 18:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

It's not much worse POV-wise than what he used. It can easily be cited, which apparently is all you need for a caption? See above. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Really? It isnt? How about we try this with less antagonism, not more. You say what you think is wrong with the caption used and make a serious suggestion for how it could be improved. Going from one "POV" to the other isnt going to solve anything. nableezy - 19:22, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

First of all, as I said before, the first two captions can easily be cited by a gagillion reliable sources. As for the Orient House, can you please tell me where lies the contention in writing,

"The Orient House, served as the headquarters of the PLO until its forcible closure in 2001"

Where is the dispute there? As for your last point, yes, I did remove a photo of the Western Wall. I also removed a photo of the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock. I incorporated all three of them into this photo. Did you even notice that before your revert? -asad (talk) 18:54, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

A lot of things can "easily be cited by a gagillion reliable sources". Like the alternative caption I suggested for the Orient House. The citability of the caption is not the only thing we consider when deciding if it should be in the article or not.

Feel free to make smaller edits with edit summaries explaining your actions, or if you prefer we can continue to go around in circles here. Your call. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:04, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

"The Orient House, served as the headquarters of the PLO until its forcible closure in 2001"

What's non-neutral about this? Nishidani (talk) 19:11, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

You still have not answered the questions. What is contentious about saying:

"Due to lack of recognition over the territorial sovereignty of Jerusalem, the United States Consulate General in Jerusalem, as most other diplomatic missions in Jerusalem, operates independently from the US Embassy in Tel Aviv"

and,

"The Orient House, served as the headquarters of the PLO until its forcible closure in 2001"

?? -asad (talk) 19:15, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

How about "The Orient House, where evidence that the PLO was illegally detaining people in Jerusalem was found"? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how that provides any relevance to the article. See point 3 on criteria for a good caption WP:CAP. I don't think it is very productive to counter a question by asking question. This will make it the 5th time you have been asked to explain why you feel those captions are contentious. Could you please explain? -asad (talk) 19:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Saying they were illegally detaining people in Jerusalem certainly has more relevance to an article about Jerusalem than the fact it was closed.

The caption is contentious because it doesn't say why the place was "forcibly closed". It also doesn't mention that it operated as the PLO headquarters for less than a decade. On top of that, there are much more famous landmarks one could use to illustrate this article. HTH.

Perhaps you could try to create less politically motivated captions. Picking pictures based on how well they would illustrate the article rather than your political agenda (who cares what the US consulate looks like? Again, it's not exactly a landmark building) would also probably help. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:09, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The Israeli claim that it was illegally detaining people in West Bank is not even mentioned in the article. The certain topic there is about government and national institutions, and this building served as a very well known home to the body which is known as the official representation of the Palestinian people in land that they claim as their capital. We don't need to interject the Israeli claim that it was shut down because of their operations in East Jerusalem just as much as we don't need to interject the Palestinian claim that it was shut down in an effort to rid the city of official Palestinian representation. Saying it was forcibly closed is NPOV and a representation of undisputed fact on both sides of the debate. Remember, this is a caption, if someone would like to read the conflicting claims they are welcome to click on the link. Also, I never claimed that the US Consulate was a "landmark" building. But please tell me how placing a picture of the American Consulate in a section talking about the political status of Jerusalem, near the sentence explaining the international mandate for world nations to specifically keep their official diplomatic representative buildings for Israel out of the city, illustrate a "political agenda". I am adding nothing of context that hasn't already existed in the article for years. -asad (talk) 23:17, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

It was good of Evanh2008 to mention AGF but I understand why other editors would be cynical when MoS is invoked but still ignored. Both versions appear to have sandwiching (maybe it is my browser settings but I doubt it). Of course this is a contentious edit. You can hardly move a coma without people worrying about it on such an article. Quality aside, how the image works in he subsection and then how the caption should be worded are massive issues with an article that cannot be FA since people won't stop focusing on politics at every opportunity. Crete a cute table to organize the endless discussion that is about to happen: (image | subsection proposed | etc ). So time to start an RfC. You guys are good at that, right? Oh... Cptnono (talk) 06:09, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

How about simply "The Orient House, which served as the headquarters of the PLO until 2001". --Dailycare (talk) 21:01, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't want to talk about politics !

I really do not want to talk about politics. But someone here all the time delete entire rows from the article and replaced them with rows of a state that does not exist yet. and also delet pictures of israel and replace them with pictures of country that does not exist yet. פארוק (talk) 18:30, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Jerusalem as capital of Palestine

Can somebody please tell me why exactly the fact that Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine should not be included in the lead of the article? I know of one discussion on the topic (here), but the major push back there is the thoroughly false claim that a state called Palestine does not exist. So, can somebody tell me why Israel's claim that Jerusalem is their capital should be included but Palestine's should not? ZScarpia's edit summary is spot-on in my view. A (large) number of users have objected to any clarification of Jerusalem's status as capital on the basis that states have a right to choos their own capital, regardless of whether or not that capital is even in the recognized territory of that state or held under belligerent occupation. Why exactly does that same argument not apply to Palestine? nableezy - 23:41, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. This seems a ridiculous double-standard. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:04, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

ZScarpia's edit and edit summary were a POINTy attempt to edit into an article something he knows has no consensus. He's lucky someone reverted him or I'd take it to AE. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I would be very happy for YOU, No More Mr Nice Guy, to take it to AE, because it would give me an opportunity to discuss your behaviour in the current article before admins. The last two discussions on the wording of the Lead were run into the ground by editors using all kinds of tendentious reasoning. They were inconclusive therefore. Perhaps you would like to explain why you are claiming that there is a consensus?     ←   ZScarpia   18:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Do it again and I'll take you to AE without the courtesy of a warning, and you can have your opportunity to discuss whatever you like. I find your threat quite amusing considering your success rate at reporting me. Also, perhaps you should read my post carefully before you ask me to explain something I didn't say? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I thought we had been through this enough times by now. I won't attempt to repeat the details here; they are all available in the archives. The wording of the lead, and its basis, have been discussed many times and at great length here, and the present wording and structure achieved by consensus. Proclamation is not enough. A capital must also be the functional seat of government, where the principal governmental institutions are. Recognition by others is not essential. Nableezy and ZScarpia are fighting the dictionary definition. Hertz1888 (talk) 00:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Which dictionary definition says that the capital must also be the functional seat of government? Because somebody really ought to let the Dutch know that. The wording of the lead has certainly been discussed many times and at great length, but I question whether its wording has ever had something resembling "consensus", by any definition of that word, be it Misplaced Pages's or a dictionary's.

@NMMNG, I dont necessarily agree with the edit, but I dispute your characterization of the edit summary. But would you care to comment on if you feel that the declaration of Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine should be in the lead, and, if not, why not? nableezy - 06:47, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

there is no such country like Palestine. becouse Palestine is the Roman name for Israel. and Palestine is an Arab lie that supported by the Christian states !. now you can go and check that in every history books in the world. פארוק (talk) 07:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

The Palestinian Authority exists, and the State of Palestine is recognized by many of the governments of the world. One can debate whether or not it meets certain criteria thought to be defining of a sovereign state, but the fact that a significant portion of the world believes in it is enough to warrant a neutral presentation of the facts by Misplaced Pages. Determining whether or not a state exists is not the same as, for example, determining whether or not the Moon is made of green cheese.

In summary, I don't see why it (the status of Jerusalem as the proclaimed capital of Palestine) shouldn't be mentioned in the lede. Evanh2008 07:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

It is recognized by those who are pretending they love Israel and in their heart just waiting for Israel's destruction and demolished that is the true !. without renting here politicians ==>>>> Capital of Israel. פארוק (talk) 07:49, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

That's fine. That's your opinion, and I have no comment on whether or not it is true. To me it looks like you're primarily on this talk page to wage a WP:Political dispute against those who disagree with you. You are a valuable contributor, Farouk, as has been seen by your great work elsewhere, so I wonder why you feel the need to get so contentious about things. If you have a concern about the article, you ought to state it rather than making accusations against those who are here to build an encyclopedia. Evanh2008 07:57, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

My dear friend. I love Misplaced Pages as much as you and i like everyone here i would not like to start a distort wrong facts and start writing depression lies to destroy the history by the name of politics. Misplaced Pages is no uniformity between all languages ​​and that is something creates Antagonism. You can check in the Arabic Misplaced Pages and see lies written there and almost the word "Israel" does not appear there in a lot of places. i know that is Perhaps not the right place, but it was important for me to mention it. פארוק (talk) 08:10, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the status as proclaimed Palestinian capital ought to be in there. There's a lot of less-relevant information in this long article already, including in the lead. For example, sources mention the Palestinian-capital issue more often than the zoo ;) --Dailycare (talk) 08:23, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

yes we know. פארוק (talk) 17:50, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Isn't the lead suppose to summarise the entire article anyway? So if there is content in the article about Palestine and Israel, then a brief summary mention in the lead should also be included. Wesley Mouse 08:28, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I dont object to this sentence which is in the article introduction and clearly summarises the situation. "According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, 208,000 Palestinians live in East Jerusalem, which is sought by the Palestinian Authority as a future capital of a future Palestinian state." Strongly oppose stating as fact that Jerusalem is the capital of a state that does not exist though. The current wording saying its sought to be the future capital is far more accurate and summarises the article enough. It would be factually inaccurate and hugely misleading to say its the capital of Israel and Palestine. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:11, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Palestine exists as a state. And that state designated Jerusalem as its capital. The Palestinian National Authority is an interim organization tasked with governing a small portion of the oPt that was set up by the Oslo Accords. The PNA is not the State of Palestine, and its "seeking" Jerusalem of a "future state" isnt related to the fact that the current state, recognized as a state by over 100 other states, has declared Jerusalem its capital. Any argument based on the invalid premise that Palestine is a state that does not exist is invalid. Wikipedians do not determine whether or not a state exists, other states are the only entities with that authority. Palestine's recognition as a state by other states makes it a state. A state without control of its territory, that being because its territory is under Israeli occupation, but a state nonetheless. nableezy - 15:27, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

As long there are not a Palestinian state (Arab lie supported by the West) then there is no point in talking about this issue !. because of all this such a talk is only increases the lies here and the hatred towards Jews and Israel also. and the Real Palestinians in the Bible are a " Greek nation " that came from the island of " Crete " and they did not was an Arabs. פארוק (talk) 13:13, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you think you are helping your side of the debate with comments like that? nableezy - 15:34, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't help anyone. But if it's a lie, then have we need to admit it was wrong. I did not say the arabs have no rights to live in Israel. but to say in the media press: "From the river to the sea" maybe you know what I mean. פארוק (talk) 15:49, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

It isnt a "lie", a Palestinian state was declared in 1988 by the PLO. That declaration also stipulated that The National Council, in the name of God, and in the name of the Palestinian Arab people, hereby proclaims the establishment of the State of Palestine on our Palestinian territory with its capital Jerusalem.فإن المجلس الوطني يعلن، باسم الله وباسم الشعب العربي الفلسطيني قيام دولة فلسطين فوق أرضنا الفلسطينية وعاصمتها القدس الشريف And no, I do not know what you mean, and Im guessing Im not the only one. nableezy - 16:05, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Maybe not ==>>> From the River to the sea and if i am wrong please tell me what is From the river to the sea ? thank you. פארוק (talk) 16:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Probably the same thing that Likudniks mean by "Greater Israel". I fail to see how that is in any way relevant to Palestine's designation of Jerusalem as its capital. nableezy - 17:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Greater Israel is very small against 21 Arab states. and we never want to occupie other countries. פארוק (talk) 17:18, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

That Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine is very notable information and should definitely be in the lead of the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

+1. Jerusalem was proclamed the capital of Israel and East-Jerusalem was proclamed the capital of Palestine. Both proclamations generated controversies (Israeli proclamation is not recognazed as legitimate by any other state and Palestian proclamation refers to a city that is not administrated by them and for a state to come). Anyway, both are very notable and important information. This shoud be added without any doubt be in the article. Pluto2012 (talk) 15:56, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, it looks as though the "consensus" for non-inclusion claimed by NMMNG and Hertz1888 isn't so clear anymore. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:20, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Really? Is that how it looks? After a whole 10 hours? Awesome.

The issues is already addressed in the lead and the article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:48, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I think you interpreted me as saying "oops the pendulum has swung! include Palestine! debate over!", which I did not intend at all. What I mean is that your initial "shh only dreams now, no need for further discussion" doesn't seem quite justified in light of the discussion thus far. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I was just about to write what Pluto stated, so agreed. There is also another problem with the lede, it states that " is Israel's largest city". As no nation but Israel believes Jerusalem, east or west to be in Israel, how can this be stated so? Any suggestions of a replacement phrase, something like "Jerusalem is larger than any other city in Palestine or Israel"? Canadian Spring (talk) 17:02, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I had the same feeling in reading the article. Jerusalem cannot be claimed to be Israel's largest city. Only West Jerusalem could whereas some countries consider even West Jerusalem status is controversial. Pluto2012 (talk) 18:26, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

@NNMNG: it's addressed in the lead already? Really? Where? Because I do not see any mention of Jerusalem having already been declared the capital of the current state called Palestine. nableezy - 17:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Too bad that people can't express there personal opinions. Where is the justice here if there is no uniformity between the English Misplaced Pages and the other languages. just look at some other Misplaced Pages and see Full of lies and hate to other nations. פארוק (talk) 17:14, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

@Hertz1888, 00:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC): "Recognition by others is not essential. Nableezy and ZScarpia are fighting the dictionary definition." Incorrect. Nableezy and ZScarpia would like the article to reflect what all the reliable sources say but, failing that, that consistent logic is applied. It is actually other editors, you included by the look of things, who have argued about dictionary definitions and the nature of what a capital is in order to include a statement that Jerusalem is, as an absolute fact, Israel's capital, overriding, contrary to Misplaced Pages's policies, all the reliable sources that state the contrary.     ←   ZScarpia   18:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Hertz, there is room for mediation. Pluto wisely noted that both sides proclaim Jerusalem as a capital. It (West Jerusalem) is functionally Israel's capital (there is no legal basis for assuming that East Jerusalem is part of Israel. It was not formally annexed.) Palestinian authorities proclaim (East) Jerusalem the capital of their future state. I'm sure a sensible compromise is possible. The problem exists, there are two POVs, and they must be balanced in wikipedia, since the Palestinian perspective at the moment is lacking.Nishidani (talk) 19:19, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget that those who designed the borders of the Middle East today are English and French by their Christian interests. I see here that you can write articles ​​of a state that still not exists. But hurry to delete entries about Israel and Judaism. פארוק (talk) 19:27, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

See Oxford Dictionaries, Macmillan Dictionary, etc. Good luck squaring the circle. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:01, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

That is provably false, see The Hague and Amsterdam. But either way, I didnt say that the article should say Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine. I dont generally try to make disputed statements like that in the encyclopedia's voice. nableezy - 04:10, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

ok. But please forgive me if I tell you that Jerusalem is a Jewish capital over 3000 years and we never replace her If anyone understands what I mean. פארוק (talk) 20:27, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

(a link to your user talkpage) And you still need to realise that it's the job of Misplaced Pages editors to neutrally present all the significant views given in reliable sources, not to argue tendentiously that one particular viewpoint is the factual one. Presumably, you're not going to deny that reliable sources do, for given reasons, albeit ones you don't like, dispute the status of Jerusalem? What is of importance is what reliable sources say, not what argument you can construct based on such things as dictionary definitions. Do you need a reminder of which particular policy bans the synthesis of facts in the way you're doing it? And do you need a reiteration of why your arguments, which ignore opposing viewpoints, are tendentious?     ←   ZScarpia   20:57, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

We've been over this. You have yet to produce a source that "disputes the status of Jerusalem". You have yet to produce a source that says that non-recognition means a city is not the capital. What you're trying to do is give equal weight to reality and future aspirations. This is supposed to be a serious encyclopedia. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

No one here is trying to remove the fact that Israel claims Jerusalem as its capital. We only believe Palestine's claim to East Jerusalem as its capital is equal to Israel's claims as the city is not recognized by most nations as being the capital or even within either or these nations. I suggest we simply ignore the one editor who is obviously not trying to be constructive as it derails the real discussion. Canadian Spring (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

This is how Misplaced Pages works: unless reliable sources agree about something, you cannot argue that that thing is a fact despite the disagreement. Reliable sources don't agree that Jerusalem is indisputably the capital of Israel and therefore you can't state as an absolute fact that it is. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear may like to read talkpage archives such as Archive 14 and Archive 15 to see which sources have been provided and what they say.     ←   ZScarpia   05:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

It certainly looks like we have consensus for change. Below is my rough idea of how I would like to see the first paragraph of the lede, any fine tuning or comments would be appreciated.

"Jerusalem is a very old and holy city which straddles the 1967 border separating Israel and Palestine. Both nations claim the city as their capital though neither has significant international recognition on this matter. With a population of 801,000 residents over an area of 125.1 km2 the city is larger than any other in Palestine or Israel. Jerusalem is a holy city to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam." Canadian Spring (talk) 02:47, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't like the wikilink on "very old", as I think a case could be made that that violates WP:ASTONISH. I also am unsure about "holy" being in the first sentence, particularly since you already have that status mentioned later in your draft of the paragraph. I don't think the demarcation line of '67 needs to be mentioned, either. What about something like:

Jerusalem ... is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such, as well as the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine. It is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is located in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea. If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, the city is larger than any other in Palestine or Israel, with a population of 801,000 residents over an area of 125.1 km2. Jerusalem is also a holy city to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Any thoughts? Evanh2008 03:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

My main thought is that if you claim there's consensus for a change after less than 2 days discussion (over a weekend to boot) regarding such a contentious sentence that has been discussed multiple times by probably dozens of editors, I'll have to seek admin intervention. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:25, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Consensus can change. Whether or not that consensus has been established yet is not a major issue, as anyone who reads this page is fully capable of judging that, either way. Ask an admin and s/he will tell you the same. Evanh2008 03:29, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

My comment was directed mainly at Canadian Spring above, but is something everyone should keep in mind. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

There are a dozen of us here now, please try to join the discussion rather than your continual threats and talks of old "consensus'". Canadian Spring (talk) 03:45, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Well the "very old" part was me trying to incorporate in items from the original, the holy part was just so that I did not have to say too simply "Jerusalem is a city". I added that it straddles the 1967 border so that people know its position relative to the states, something which your's does not accomplish. "If the area and population of East Jerusalem..." I don't get this, why would anyone ever think to exclude the population of East Jerusalem unless we are coming from the perspective of Jerusalem as an Israeli city. Why not cut out that part up to the comma? Canadian Spring (talk) 03:45, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Wait a second, you cant say things like Jerusalem straddles a border. It doesnt, the Green Line separates Israel proper from the occupied Palestinian territories, it does not separate the state of Israel from the state of Palestine. That border has yet to be drawn, and until a peace treaty establishes such a border we cant say that one exists. Israel has a border with Jordan and a border with Egypt, it does not yet have one with Palestine. There are a lot of technical issues here that cannot be glossed over. I think the solution is removing is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such, from the first sentence and moving it to a paragraph dedicated to the political status of the city. In my perfect world, that paragraph would include such things as Jerusalem straddling the Green Line, having been declared capital by Israel following the 1948 War, EJ being captured and occupied in 67, the 1980 Jerusalem Law and its rejection by the international community, and the 1988 declaration by Palestine, and finally something like the status of Jerusalem continues to be among the most disputed issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We dont need to, and shouldnt, dumb things down, and we dont need to lead the article on some 5000 years of history with a comparatively recent political dispute. nableezy - 04:08, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

NMMNG, I think Ive read everything in here that you have written, but I dont think Ive seen you actually comment on the actual issue here. You wrote above he issues is already addressed in the lead and the article. I asked where. Is there a place where the designation of Jerusalem as capital of Palestine is mentioned in the lead? And if not, do you think that designation should not be mentioned? And if not, why not? nableezy - 04:13, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Right, I'm not too up on the technicalities in the I/P conflict, I would accept a change from what I proposed above to "Jerusalem is an add adjective city which straddles the green line, demarking a boundary between Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories." If you want to separate out the lede in a new way, show us a draft. I don't care too much for order, but I do believe that in the first line or two there should be information which states where the city is in regards to nations. Canadian Spring (talk) 04:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

There's a line that says that East Jerusalem "is sought by the Palestinian Authority as a future capital of a future Palestinian state". That can certainly be tweaked, but to make things very clear, I think that a. that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (as per plenty of reliable sources and per the simple fact that it functions as Israel's capital, including the seat of government, where all diplomats go to submit their credentials and carry out their diplomatic missions vis a vis the MFA, etc) should be in the first sentence of the lead, like it is for every other capital in this encyclopedia, and b. that the Palestinian claim for territory they don't control and don't use as a capital does not deserve equal weight. Not to mention the fact that AFAIR they claim only East Jerusalem, which has its own article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the entirety of the comment directly above, with the possible exception of the East Jerusalem bit, which I am not sure about. Evanh2008 04:58, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

If one needs to be mentioned in the first paragraph, then I think the other does as well. In that case I dont see much wrong with Evanh's proposed edit. As far as EJ, the actual declaration just says القدس الشريف (al-quds al-sharif, Jerusalem) nableezy - 05:05, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Let me clarify and state that I support including both states' claims in the lede (obviously, as per my suggested revision), but also agree with NMMNG that we need to be careful about WP:WEIGHT. Obviously, the key difference between the two claims is that one of the political entities has de facto sovereignty over the city; whether that sovereignty is de jure is not relevant to this particular discussion. We can and should present both claims with due weight and a keen eye for the facts of the case. Evanh2008 05:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Thats fine, but I think the weight is covered by is the capital vs the proclaimed capital. nableezy - 06:07, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. Evanh2008 06:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think both should be in the first sentence of the lead. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 06:22, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Until now i don't understand why it is allowed write articles ​​of a state that does not exist but on the other hand can't write articles like the "World Bible Center". I have a strong feeling that maybe everything here is a strong Christian antisemitism motif. פארוק (talk) 06:33, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Probably because the state exists. I have a strong belief, or hope at least, that we wont be dealing with such comments much longer. nableezy - 06:44, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Just want to note that I take offense at the antisemitism accusation, particularly since good portions of my family are Jewish. No personal attacks, please. Evanh2008 07:10, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

nableezy - I want to ask you a qustion pleas. Why the Palestinians in Israel are "destroy and demolished Jewish archaeological sites" at night when the police is not there ? ....... and why the Palestinian education system teaches the children that in Israel never have been here a Jews ? ....... Thank you. פארוק (talk) 08:06, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Zugzwang

Those editors who believe that we are nearing consensus on the lead are, as they know, sorely mistaken. The moment anyone tries to make an actual edit to the article page, the pro-Israeli opponents of change will swoop down with arb-barbed talons to restore the woeful status quo.

The status quo, sanctified by hundreds of thousands of archived talk-page words, is, alas, the best that this committee can come up with. The pro-Israel campers have deified "capital" into a mountain range, and the anti-Israeli campers have added a rider and an exegisical footnote that points out the absurdity of that word. Fortunately, I doubt that any reader has ever read that footnote, and most readers, stymied by that Henry Jamesian first sentence, probably scurry to the online Britannica to read about the world's most contentious city.

In the classical meaning of zugzwang, any move a player makes results in a loss. But in this game, it is not the players that lose: whatever either side does, it is the reader who loses. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Ravpapa - After they finished to writ the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Arabic Misplaced Pages) they come to here ! maybe after than they go to the Hebrew Misplaced Pages also ..... if you understand what i mean. פארוק (talk) 08:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

All I am looking for is the inclusion of Palestine's declaration of Jerusalem as capital of the currently existing State of Palestine. I am not looking to actually change the statement on Jerusalem as Israel's capital, as I dont see much of a point in that discussion. But its status is incomplete right now as it only says that the Palestinians want it as a capital of some future state, disregarding that it has already been declared capital of the existing state. nableezy - 05:05, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

a hopeless case if --- listen: there's a hell

of a good universe next door; let's go

But it is a world of made. Thanks for that nonetheless. nableezy - 06:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

1. http://www.al-islam.org/al-miraj/
2. http://www.duas.org/articles/merajarticle.htm
3. http://islamqa.info/en/ref/7726

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