Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:31, 1 September 2012

This user is busy in real life and may not respond swiftly to queries.

Deletion review for Moral and national education

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Moral and national education. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review.

Talkback template

False Sock Charge

You accused me of using a sock puppet and the charge is false. MART2012 is a unique person with her own ideas. Please remove the tag from my User page. Thank you. University Internet Cafe Booth 6 (talk) 22:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

• I didn't accuse you, Dave Dial did. Then the CU, DeltaQuad ran a Checkuser and proved the two accounts used the exact same IP and user agent, etc., showing it was exactly the same person. I just came in and cleaned up afterwards by doing the block. Your views being similar wouldn't make your technical signatures be identical. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:15, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Dennis, this only makes it someone using the same computer (if it were done properly, which it isn't) - not that that need necessarily effect the outcome per COMMONSENSE and MEATPUPPET. Rich Farmbrough, 01:31, 25 August 2012 (UTC).
    
    • Rich, when you have the same IP, same OS, same user agent, same articles, and same POV, that is usually a sock. They haven't offered any explanation that counters this. Check and see, I'm not shy about reviews or reversing myself in the face of reasonable evidence, but there has been none, only denial. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:06, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry case

It is one I just opened and you may want to look at. To me, its pretty clear the two accounts are the same user. Snowsnowbing did a large number of incorrect Ryder Cup edits in 2011 and MrARJ76 has made some of the exact same changes....William 17:25, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Look what I found

In your spare time (if you have any) please checkout User:WikHead#Intersted to nominate your name as Admin. He is a 100K editor with the largest Plum colored edits pie. Some one has challenged him to consider Adminship and he wonders if he has the "muscle" for the job. I opined that nowadays the heart is the prime organ of strength. Thanks.```Buster Seven Talk 20:39, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Typically, this is not the kind of user you want as an admin. I bet you weren't expecting to hear that. The reason is simple: This is a highly productive content maintenance editor. Becoming an admin would reduce productivity. He has never shown an interest in the politics and processes here, thus no Wikispace experience (which is problematic for RfA, to say the least). One highly productive editor is worth 10 admins in my book. People come here for the great articles, not the great admins, and losing most of his productivity so he can move article, settle disputes, determine consensus, might be a waste of his skills.

His stats, the less than 2 edits per article, tells me he does a lot of tagging and maintenance stuff as well and like to clean up articles, which is great and we need that even more than admins, but makes it hard at RfA, particularly since it looks like most of his edits are automated. Great for productivity, not for RfA. If he becomes interested in admin work, he would normally start working some at the boards and learn the processes, methods, and the policies he might never have run across before. So if he shows the interest, I will be happy to help him, but I'm betting he doesn't want the hassles, and being an admin is a lot of hassle. Rewarding, but a lot of hassle. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:18, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I feel like an NFL scout that was excited to have found the next Peyton Manning only to be told he more closely resembles Bill Wade. ```Buster Seven Talk 22:36, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

No, he seems like a very good editor, but it is just a different skill set needed for admin, editors that engage more. Like I said, good editors are more important than good admins anyway. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:44, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Biruitorul

Hi, please take a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Biruitorul/Archive

Biruitorul deserves ban for abusing accounts: http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Nagyszikszai 100% RedParty is also Biruitorul. Biruitorul uses to reply his other accounts. The case is intricate and many other users warned before.

You could also please check: http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Anonimu http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Bogdangiusca http://en.wikipedia.org/User:PANONIAN

http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/SidoniaBorcke With this user he replied himself: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Csangos&action=history (Full page of his users)

I could also add that Biruitorul found Dutch and German VPNs. 100% it`s him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.149.241.202 (talk) 23:20, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Why don't you two just learn to get along? You've been at each other for years. PumpkinSky talk 00:46, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I've already closed that previous case. If you want to open a new case, I will let another clerk review it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:49, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Wow, um, a whole lot being claimed there. FWIW, I don't think there's anything there. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:00, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

HarveyCarter, again

92.7.0.136 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is at it on Edward Furlong, one of his pet articles as you'll see from the article history - 92.7.5.190 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), CuthbertClifford (talk · contribs), 92.7.2.174 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 92.7.13.36 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) are all him, and that's only going back to the start of July. Do I need to waste time with SPI? Thanks. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 20:17, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

You're wrong. I am not HarveyCarter.

Complaint on Jimbo's talk page

Hi Dennis, Inetcafe6 (or something close to that) should have notified you of this: they have complained about you at User talk:Jimbo Wales. LadyofShalott 20:24, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you, Lady. If the most abusive thing he can find on Misplaced Pages is my comment "If you are trying to persuade me, being a smart ass isn't the way to do it.", then we are doing just fine. It does seem that many observers don't get the distinction between "acting like a smart ass" and "you are a smart ass", but that is fine. Think I will sit this one out, it appears everyone else has it under control. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

• Indeed, and you are welcome. Even though there's no rule for Jimbo's page like that of ANI, I think if someone is seeking injunction from on high, the least they can do is notify the other party. LadyofShalott 00:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• I agree. Technically, Jimmy can override the actions of ANI or ArbCom, so if a complaint is made about an editor, it would be common courtesy to notify them. I pop in from time to time, but I generally do not stalk his page. As you can see here, it is all I can do many days to just reply to the many issues brought to my own talk page, which gets an amazing amount of traffic, requests, problems and just random questions. With all due respect to Jimmy, this is a higher priority than the random politicking on his page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:31, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

What did I say I was gonna do when I got back?

I can't remember now. LOL! I could seriously use a project that is mundane right now.--Amadscientist (talk) 21:24, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Fix DAB links! Use the DAB solver. Mundane, but very useful. Ryan Vesey 21:27, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I guess that doesn't auto generate an edit summary. What should I be adding? I don't see instruction for that. Could I just write "Fixing DAB Links with DAB solver"?--Amadscientist (talk) 21:51, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

OK...that took a couple of tries to figure out. LOL! But this is mundane and I will add this link to my page. I think I was going to create and sort some pages for WP:WER, but I can't find the note on here where I was telling Dennis what I was going to do. I'll look closer a little later.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:02, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm curious as to what happened. An auto summary should appear, see this example. Sometimes it will make genfixes and will leave an added summary stating that DAB solver was used. Perhaps it is because you didn't sign in? Try clicking sign in in the upper right hand corner of the DAB solver page. There will be a get credentials button. Click that and copy and paste the content into the box that should be available for you. Ryan Vesey 22:03, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

My fault. I was signed in with credintials but it doesn't auto generate until after saving and my first try was not signed in when it didn't auto generate. It is now however!--Amadscientist (talk) 22:07, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately my internet explorer is blocking the use for cross scripting.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:19, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I've been saying I'm going to work on articles for two weeks, yet haven't found the time to fill up a double spaced sheet of paper with all the other things going on. Plans are fine, and make nice theories, but usually it is all I can do to just gnome around a bit. I need to start using one of my alt. accounts just so I can get some actual editing done around here :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:34, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

An invitation for you!

	Hello, Dennis Brown. We are in the early stages of initiating a project to plan, gain consensus on, and coordinate adding a feature to the main page wherein an article will be listed daily for collaborative improvement. If you're interested in participating, please add your name to the list of members.

 Happy editing! AutomaticStrikeout 02:30, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm sending you this invitation because progress is coming very slow on this project and I'd appreciate help in getting it off the ground. AutomaticStrikeout 02:30, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm up to my eyeballs in other projects, but this actually sounds really good, particularly if you put a little focus on articles that were once GA or FA, but have fallen from grace. I'm more of a "process mover" than "article improver" myself, but I have a few friends that would excel at actually helping, including User:Drmies and User:LadyofShalott. Two users that are excellent at rehabilitating articles would include User:Parrot of Doom and User:Malleus Fatuorum, both of which are exceptional wordsmiths. Ping me again in two weeks, hopefully things will be settled down for me and I will see if I can draw more attention to the cause, but these four would be worthwhile contacts, and unquestionably better editors than myself. You are more than welcome to tell them that I recommended them as exceptional authors that would be a great asset to such a project. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:27, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

ANI discussion

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Possible wikihounding. Thank you. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 08:49, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Also, I'm very sorry it has come down to this, as I have tried to help work up a positive solution. The recent edits by Niemti seem to clearly fit the description of WP:WIKIHOUNDING due to expression of perceived slights on AN/I, the "errors" "corrected" are not unambiguous and violations of Misplaced Pages policy, and the hounding is being accompanied by tendentiousness, edit warring, personal attacks (, on Ninja Turtles, on which I helped clean up, and , , on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (film series)) like at AN/I. I have already noted on AN/I that I am going to be patient and should let others voice their opinion on this matter and I am clearly frustrated by Niemti's accusations and I have been voluntarily avoiding interaction with this user directly since the previous resolution. Also, per User talk:Berean Hunter#Apology and question, Berean Hunter said that fresh eyes on this matter may help lead to a positive resolution where none has worked so far, as this resolution did not work, even though I have Niemti's talk page unwatched. With that said, can you please tell me what are your thoughts on this matter? Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:37, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

• Again I would defer to Berean Hunter. More likely, you two need to work in other areas for a while, or longer. I'm a bit involved, but since he is here, and unblocked, a fair opportunity must be given for him to demonstrate he can work here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:17, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, as it turns out per User talk:Go Phightins!#ANI discussion, it suggests we refer this matter to the Arbitration Committee. What are your thoughts about it? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:01, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Arb is not likely to take the case unless you have exhausted other remedies, such as WP:RFC/U. There are exceptions, but that is a pretty universal step on the way to ArbCom for most cases. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:34, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
      • My very best wishes has posted a suggestion on Go Phightins! talk page, which I believe to be very bad advice and I posted my suggestions on the talk page. I should consult with you first to see if this suggestion is a good idea, since I just want to edit more collaboratively with Niemti and give him the fair chance he has been given to return. I do not want to follow his edits, but only want to make sure that I don't want to cause any distress in doing so when taking a look at his contributions and finding obvious MOS violations. I feel like best wishes has been giving me some bad advice recently, as he has done with other users as well. Thank you for looking into this, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:43, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
        • Actually, I wouldn't call that bad advice. That is in line with my "air gap" comment. ie: the two of your don't "touch", he just explained it. Sometimes it is better to simply walk away and let others deal with the problems, particularly if we have been too "involved". I have to do that regularly, but I tend to have a great deal of interacts with people here. Even below, in the archived discussion, it became obvious that all I could do is walk away. Not exactly the same thing, but still the best solution was to walk away and let others deal with it. Things don't happen in a vacuum here, if he is doing something wrong, it will likely get noticed by someone else. If he has made a major violation of some policy, you can always ping Berean Hunter, who is familiar with the situation, and let him make a determination, but it might be better to remove yourself from noticing for a while. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:27, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
          • Yeah. Just to keep you updated, I just realized that Niemti's claim of "wikihounding" was not substantiated as what Bbb23 and I felt. The discussion probably was a misinterpretation of policy according to Sergecross73, since both Niemti and I have different theories and interpretations of our policies and guidelines and we have not broken any policy or done anything warranting any sort of discipline. As such, I do not choose to edit articles by searching his contribution history and do not watch his talk page, since I did not intend to harass Niemti in doing so. And according to Betty Logan here, just because I get involved in disputes with him simply because you watch or edit the same articles does not mean it is not wikihounding. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 12:27, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
            • The problem is always that if even looks like it to a few people, those are the few that will show up at ANI and cause problems until someone comes along and looks at the whole story. This is why I recommend keeping some distance unless you need to get involved. It isn't a "correction", just something I do myself with people I don't get along with. Yes, there are a couple of people here that I actively try to avoid, although they seem to follow me around. I generally just ignore them as best as I can. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:20, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
              • Hmm, I see. Keeping some distance from problematic users at ANI is a good idea. I also avoid quite a few people, even if they seem to follow me around. Thanks for the recommendation and helpful advice. I appreciate it very much. :-) All the best, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 14:46, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Clash between two editors

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dennis, about a month ago you interceded on the behalf of user Ihardlythinkso, when no fewer than three different admins wanted him blocked. Having had dealings with him in the past, I was very skeptical that his behavior would change after your benevolent action, as he has been given a million second chances and warnings in the past, to no avail. (Including an indefinite block at one point) Indeed, it's been a month, and the only difference I have found is that Ihardlythinkso is even more persistent than usual. Editing articles on Misplaced Pages is more aggravating than ever for me, as Ihardlythinkso constantly stalks my activities, starting endless arguments and challenging my most basic of edits. Even a simple, friendly message on his page provoked an angry backlash. Perhaps he misinterpreted your kindness as a blank check to act however he wants? Regardless, going to the ANI is an exhausting and annoying chore that I would rather avoid. I would much rather edit chess articles without constant insulting arguments, regardless of whether there is actual merit to the objection or not. Since you took responsibility for Ihardlythinkso, would you mind speaking with him yourself? Thanks a bunch in advance. ChessPlayerLev (talk) 15:30, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

• WP:ANI would be the wrong venue anyway, WP:RFC/U is the right one, as it seems your goal isn't to block or ban him as much as get him to recognize his method of cooperating is problematic. I get along with him fine (even though we have bumped heads a couple of times) but I'm not editing the same articles that he is. There isn't a question that his motivations are to better Misplaced Pages but I can see where his intensity might be problematic at times. I think that he doesn't realize how strongly he comes across in print, and have made an observation to this effect before. I'm pretty sure he watches my page and would imagine he would pipe in here shortly. Maybe we can try to talk it out here a bit, before taking anything to the next level. I'm in and out for the next few days, but this isn't an "incident" and didn't happen over a few days anyway, and this should be a neutral enough place to discuss for now. I will invite him. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:11, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, I believe that Ihardlythinkso, in both his response on his Talk Page as well as the ANI, has made it very clear that he sees me purely as an enemy and refuses any sort of understanding. He is not interested in talking anything out with me. That's unfortunate, but well within his rights on Misplaced Pages. However, those same responses also make it clear that he sees me as an enemy that he has to "combat" the "garbage" edits and "nonsense" of. This I'm not okay with and would like to stop immediately.

Lastly, I have to respectfully disagree and state that ANI would indeed be the appropriate venue if this behavior persists. Since attempts at any sort of understanding with Ihardlythinkso have been futile and only resulted in increasingly worse, more belligerent behavior, I would indeed want him banned or blocked. In fact, as you well know, so did three other administrators until you stepped in on Ihardlythinkso behalf last time. I am hoping that you speaking with him will spare us all another long, annoying trip to the ANI. ChessPlayerLev (talk) 16:42, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, take a look at any of my posts in the reasonable past, and you'll find none of them are "intense". (If I've been "intense" toward anyone, that's news to me. Diff please? Even one?) I think your view of me was colored by our first interaction, Dennis, where I was "intense" with you. But, you don't seem to allow an editor to evolve themselves and recognize the change, once your view has been colored. (For example, you also claimed my comments to admin User:TheBladeOfTheNorthernLights on his User talk were "snarky", and asked me to apologize for that. I did apologize to him, but I regret it now, since I was never snarky to him; I wrote straight stuff. )

CPL is trying to make your User talk here a defacto ANI or whatever. I'm not going to participate because I'd be inclined to address all the false accusations, distortions, and exaggerations. I don't have to go thru this (defending myself against a stream of false accusations and exaggerations); I had enough of that at the ANI already. I've experienced attempts to smear me by this user repeatedly, and User:Guy Macon as well, repeatedly. I'm willing to discuss here if things are maintained fair and civil, but even at first pitch here, that is decidedly not in the cards. Misplaced Pages is voluntary, and I put in a good effort on my edits, and I know how to work with others, if the situation is reasonable. The two users I've named have not been reasonable, instead there are personal attacks and misuse of process to attempt to block me, bait me, threaten, falsely accuse, and so on. I won't be participating in this unless there's a semblance of fairness and objectivity. I see plently of false and personal attacks from CPL. This is abusive use of your Talk. What do you expect to achieve w/ CPL, Dennis? Perhaps you overestimate what you can do. CPL has interpreted disagreement as picking on him. He has interpreted protecting the Wiki, as stalking. He refuses to see the aggressive, enflaming nature of his interactions, and to ignore this and instead discuss my "snarkiness" or "intensity", shows me the train is already off the tracks. What do you want me to say, Dennis? I wish the Wiki could be less hostile and abusive, but it allows everyone to edit here, and incivility is not enforced here. And free, false attacks are the order of the day. I'm a volunteer editor; did not sign up to take repeated abuse. CPL has *no complaints* of anything specific in any reasonable recent time. (If so, show me the diff!) This is just a continuation of his ANI to get me blocked, which should be clear from his above comments. I've asked CPL to stay off my User talk, I was open to dialogue with him with a third neutral party, but! Cheers, and good try. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:09, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Update: Dennis, I just figured out *why* you're bringing in the "he can be intense" thingy. It is from one or more personal Emails we have exchanged, yes? Guilty as charged! (But Dennis, those were personal Emails. Where I felt free to loosen my behavior with you in them. I would never dialogue in same manner on the Wiki as in our mails. I think you are assuming I did. Didn't happen. The most pointed I've been with anyone was admin User:TheBladeOfTheNorthernLights, at his Talk. Perhaps "pointed" is a brother to "intense". Ok. But with CPL, I've never even been "pointed" to best recollection. You should grant me being adult enough to be able to divide my personal email writing, from my Wiki writing. I can and do.) Cheers, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:42, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it is based on observations here, the examples of emails and our first interaction might qualify as something a couple of notches higher than "intense" :). "Intense" isn't an insult, it is only an observation, and I use the word in the most traditional sense, not as a vague way of saying something else. I can be intense as well, although my usual demeanor here on Misplaced Pages is more reserved. You get passionate about something and the intensity goes up. That isn't the same thing as "rude" or "mean", but you are intense and it may come across differently than you perceive at times, and you appear more unyielding than I know you are. This isn't about assigning blame here, and I haven't looked at the situation deep enough to have an opinion on blame anyway, and I haven't had enough interactions with CPL to have an educated opinion about their typical demeanor here. What I'm wanting is for both of you figure out how to get along, which usually means give and take. I'm not stopping anyone from doing anything. This talk page IS a neutral place, and you should both try to hash things out here to prevent an ANI. If it does go to ANI, I have no intention of interfering there. I find many disagreements are based on misunderstandings, so I would prefer we keep it short and simple, and try to address why you keep getting under each other's skin. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind discussing that at all Dennis, and try to salvage a working relationship w/ CPL. But he wants my head on a stick, and I personally can't deal w/ uninterrupted stream of false accuses and attempts to smear based on distortions and fiction and exaggerations. I do think your expectation here isn't plausible. It takes two, I'm open, but not for more abuse. (Are we done now at this "mini-ANI"? The thing here has been an attack attempt by CPL. He's displeased. I'm not responsible for that. Please don't try and make me.) Cheers, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 20:10, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

This isn't a mini-ANI. I won't block anyone here. This is a discussion, with the goal of avoiding an ANI. No one is perfect, we all can improve (look above, I just got called out at Jimbo's page for using the phrase "smart ass"). I know nothing about chess (ok, I play, but I suck) and all I care about is figuring out if there is a way for your two to work together. You don't have to like each other, just work together. Or I step out of the way and what happens, happens. No one is perfect here, that is for sure. Either we start with the basis that we all, as a community, have a problem and it is to do with the lack of cooperation of your two, or we don't and less tolerant eyes can judge at ANI. It is up to you two. I'm not going to beg anyone to get along, but I'm willing to work with you both, which is likely going to be the less drastic approaches available at Misplaced Pages. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

It isn't a mini-ANI, but it certainly has *felt* that way, Dennis. (Complete with all the trimmings of false attacks, piling-on, over-generalized complaints, requests for block, more.) This is a discussion? (Have you read CPL's posts here at top of thread?) How can you care about "figuring out if there is a way for you two to work together", Dennis, when you've admittedly not reviewed CPL's edit history? I told you that your expectation is a little much. But I told you more than once I'm willing to discuss with CPL, but in a reasonable environment, but this isn't that, and I've already explained why not. I came here because you invited me, Dennis, mistakenly thinking you saw a conflict at my Talk, and offered to be a kind of mediator. But that isn't what happened. CPL came here to complain, and to attack, and to threaten. You have not cautioned him, or warned him about the potential incivility of that. Yet you find it worthwhile to remind me I can be "intense", when in any reasonable time past, I've not edited that way toward anyone, even though you say you've "observed". (Diffs please, Dennis?) This whole thread was opened by CPL to complain, attack, and threaten. Based on what? If had a brain in my head, which I like to think I do, I'd want to minimize my contact with CPL. And I do. How do you negotiate with someone who wants your head on a stake, Dennis? CPL has made his intentions clear. I've told you several times I'm willing to discuss differences with him, but, you seem to lay the blame on me in this thread, for that not occurring. That kind of unfairness is why this has felt like a mini-ANI. Now you seem to be making mild ultimatums and threats of this going to ANI, when I'd like to know the basis, because again, you have not read his edit history vis-a-vis my edits. People should listen more to Malleus: Just because someone says thus and so, does not make it true. You've made this a dialogue a contention between you and me now. There is everything to criticize about CPL, and little about me, yet you choose me. I think your objectivity is slipping (perhaps because I embarrassed you about "you're not perfect" ... now I see that is coming back to me, in your quotes above "everyone is not perfect", which I already know and do not need to be reminded). Dennis, you are not perfect, and, I think your objectivity here is not perfect, and, I'm outofhere thank you. Please don't invite me to your Talk again. Nothing good has happened here. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:25, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

"No one is perfect". Therefore, we're all equally at fault. (A fallacy, Dennis. A fallacy for the too-busy to read edit histories? For the too-busy closers of ANIs? Is that why User:TheBladeOfTheNorthernLights clumped me with CPL at his conclusion of the ANI? Which I took issue with and let him know on his Talk . And what did I get? A retaliatory re-opening of the ANI for no basis, and recommendation to block from that admin. This isn't abuse? *Again* Malleus is right: A basis for block can be simply that an admin doesn't like you disagreeing with him.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:45, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

If Ihardlythinkso wants evidence of the problem, he only has to try re-reading his own comments here. If CPL goes back to ANI and you've bailed on Ihardlythinkso, I fear he will find himself going down for the third time. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:32, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Elen, there's nothing "bad" about my replies here. I'm not the one doing the personal attacks. You and I have never gotten along, from our first interaction you called me a condescending name, "Pet", and did so a second time, as though to rub it in, after I'd politely asked you to stop with the name-calling. (You call that being civil? You are Admin, and upholding to a "higher standard" of civility per Jimbo? How's that?) I find your comments now baiting. You have also selectively ignored the comments by CPL in this thread; you have nothing to say about them, but you like to pick on me. I say you have active prejudice against me, and act on it through baiting. Shame shame. "Going down for a third time." Gosh Elen, where was I "going down" twice? Or even once? You mean the block by admin User:Toddst1? There are several admins, who have given me their opinions re that admin, and the quality of his block. Please stop your baiting Elen, and please *leave me alone* and quit butting into my conversations with others, as you did in the past when I tried to dialogue with User:Qwyrxian. (I couldn't get you to stop butting in and baiting, and after asking Qwyrxian's assistance to stop you, where he advised you to leave me alone, you finally did. Are you our representative for good behavior on Misplaced Pages, Elen? Then I think you need to be replaced.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:16, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

If CPL "goes back to ANI", then maybe an admin should advise him, that it is misuse of that venue, which is to be used after all other dispute venues have been tried without success. You seem to be encouraging him to open an ANI, when that would be a misuse of that venue. (You're not doing that out of prejudice against me, Elen?) How uncivil! (How the heck did you get approved for Arbcom??) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

See, Dennis? (A piling-on. And nasty, condescending remarks. *So* ANI-like. No wonder that place is despised, by many top contributors. Go see the comments in my Talk archive, from those editors and what they say about ANI. My favorite is by Malleus: "Nothing good ever comes from that place.") Your little ANI-abuse chamber at WP makes WP one of the least enjoyable volunteer activities. Because people can get by with anything there, dishonesty, false accusations, lies, ridicules, the works.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Just read it back, but pretend it's somebody else writing it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Here's my favorite quote (though not about ANI, but the abusive environment at WP):

I was thinking yesterday, in all my life, I have never been so harassed, wantonly smeared, blatantly lied about or otherwise trashed as I've been on this website. Not even nearly. -- quote by Gwen Gale, December 2011

I think a lot can be learned from Gale's observation. Dennis, do you think it might relate to WP's editor-retention problem? For Elen, I'd like her to stop with the contributions to said, sick environment. An environment consists of all the little parts that comprise the whole, and Elen, you are one of the little parts. So am I. So is CPL. Good luck. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I think you are reading to much into what little she said here. And to be clear, Elen is always welcome to comment here, I depend on her and others to stalk my talk page and offer their wisdom, just as I comment on her talk page. I do think you are being over sensitive to her comments. I took them as her saying "Look, you are better off trying to work things out here." and that is all. I think you also took my comments in a different vane than they were expressed. Some people are just wired differently and perceive comments differently, I accept that, but at some point it is up to them to accept and adjust to the majority, at least to the point of getting along. It isn't about me, as I'm quite adept at "translating" the comments of many people into what I think they mean, but not everyone is so generous. I've known you long enough to know that what you mean isn't always easy to determine by what you say, but it took me a bit to adjust to this. You also have been known to read between the lines, even if there wasn't anything there (like here with Elen). I understand a degree of this, even if you don't. But in the end, it is you that must live with others misunderstanding your comments, not me. I'm sure you don't like hearing this, as you are someone who prides themselves on their English abilities, but proper English and effective communications aren't always the same thing. As you have noted previously, my grammar often leaves much to be desired, yet I'm able to effectively communicate my ideas in spite of it. Of course, this is only because I recognized a while back that I didn't, and made the necessary changes to remedy that situation. And please don't ask for diff's, it isn't a comment on your character, just an observation of many encounters. If I had questions about your character, I wouldn't bother discussing here, would I? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:50, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, I never made any such criticism about your grammar. ("As you have noted previously, my grammar often leaves much to be desired.", implies I did. I never criticized your grammar, *ever*. (What I *did* do, was make a grammar correction in one of your messages to Malleus, because it was germane to the topic of your message, and had a humorous angle too.)

About your other comments Dennis, I'm aware what I write, and can back up what I write. (Can CPL do that?) You expect me to write unambiguously, and I feel my writing is pretty specific and clear. Yet you want me to "interpret what Elen means", not what she says?! (Isn't that a little contradictory? First you criticize me for "reading between the lines", but then you tell me to "interpret" Elen's comments -- what she "really" means. I have a suggestion: How about Elen simply writing what she means in the first place? You're applying a double standard to me here, Dennis, isn't that obvious? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Ihardlythinkso, I know some of what Gwen Gale experienced. The few small things said about you don't come anywhere close. If you could stop treating everything anyone ever says to you that contains any kind of comment or criticism of you as abuse, you would find your experience here less stressful. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:57, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

To add: People that come here and find "abuse" everywhere they turn, are generally not happy here and don't stay here. Others come here here (myself) and see the positive side, and the problems, but call the problems "challenges" and work to make the place better, and tend to be happy. Two people can view the same situation and see two different things. It doesn't mean one is wrong and one is right, it is just a matter of perspective. The proverbial "glass is half empty / glass is half full", and it is in the eye of the beholder. Perspective, like happiness, is a choice. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:11, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, I started this topic with a very clear goal in mind. As you can see from his responses above, (and if you read the link in my first comment here) Ihardlythinkso views me as an enemy. Any friendly communication on my part seeking to come to an understanding ("glad you made that topic") is treated in a hostile manner and a reason for these long, never-ending replies filled with accusations and insults. Now Dennis, you're the ONLY reason Ihardlythinkso is around on Misplaced Pages at present. You interceded on his behalf, saving him from 3 different admins that wanted him blocked at the ANI. Thus, I thought you would be highly interested in communicating and conveying my desire for a friendly resolution with Ihardlythinkso, as he ignores these same requests from me. It will certainly be a shame if you cannot, or continue seeing this as just another "clash" between two editors who have identical positions. It's a last resort, and I think everyone would rather avoid another topic at the ANI. I know I would. ChessPlayerLev (talk) 01:39, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, you might have different feelings than I, about the nature of your Talk, because you are not the one attacked here. CPL opened this thread to attack me, not for any other reason. Then you blame me for not enjoying the "cup half full" perspective for greater peace and harmony. Yeah, I agree, perspective: I'm the one attacked with ANI-like smears here, you aren't. (Why not try and put yourself in another's shoes for an instant?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:54, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Elen, it's not easy to respond to you. For example, implying that I've labelled as abuse "everything anyone ever says to you that contains any kind of comment or criticism", is pure exaggration, and seems to try and make me out as some kind of crazy. I don't use the word "abuse" lightly, quit making me out like some kind of loon. If I've called something abuse and you want to really object to it or call me on it, then let's go in a discussion room and go over it. But the over-generalized complaints, are a form of false accuse, false blame, your opinions and impressions are really worth nothing, unless you can back them up with concrete examples. (I know it is *so much easier* to simply blame someone, and utter one's free opinions to them, about what one "feels". But that kind of activity is self-stroking, easy, cheap, lazy, and ultimately unfair. If I have any criticism of anyone, I would expect to be ready to back it up and demonstrate why. But you and Dennis bathe in just throwing out opinions, which you want to do freely without investing in bothering to back them up. I don't do that. I find it objectionable. I wouldn't do that to others. I think it is a slippery slope to allow oneself to make comments without being wiling to back them up, because the logical end of that slope deprecates to simple name-calling. I think it's a mistake therefore to even begin down that road. So I don't do it). Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

This all started because someone has an issue with you, and asked for me to consider mediating a discussion between the two of you. It has degraded into something else, starting when I made an observation about your "intensity", which is arguably not a flaw, just a characteristic, but you took offense. Do you not see how this side tracks real issues? How easily the conversation goes from subject matter to personal because you take offense to anyone making an observation? I've been "reported" to Jimmy's page today and made less of a fuss. Actually, I didn't bother responding, so I guess you could say I made no fuss. Every observation doesn't requires a discussion, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Where did CPL ask you to mediate a discussion between him and me?? (Sorry, I don't see that. Did I miss it?) I did see attacks. I did see accuses. I did see threats. I did see talk about blocking me. Where was the "discussion"? Did it try to start? Where? I've been willing and open, but this threat is caustic, hostile, accusatory, abusive. (You apparently don't see that?) Dennis, the reason I objected to your "intensity" thing, is that in light of CPL's attacks already registered here, in my view, you've selectively ignored them, and chosen instead to pick on me for crimeless minutia. That speaks lack of objectivity to me, and after your "everyone's not perfect" repetitions, it seemed probable to me that you cannot be impartial, because you still resent my embarrassment of you on your Talk re the "fear of honesty" accuse you made of all oppose !voters at User:History2007's failed RfA. The fact you ignored CPL's blatant hostility and smear attempts in this thread, and go after me for "intensity" so on, was out of perspective -- not objective, not fair. I had no desire to degrade anything, but I'd already been attacked by CPL in his usual aggressive manner, with attempts to smear, and you aren't taking that into consideration. It seems you want to find fault in me, and not him; blame me, and not him. When it is boring to me if I have to show you how he has been massively uncivil here on your Talk. You admitted you never read his edit history, or checked the issue. Yet you want to dump criticisms on me here, however small, and completely ignore CPLs offenses. That is not objective. How ever would you think I wouldn't comment? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:16, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, the past is the past and it is easy for me to get over. I'm blessed that way. I didn't see it as an embarrassment, however, just a difference of opinion and mine was a bit strong. Had I been actually embarrassed, it is doubtful I would have been so open, after all. But that isn't relevant to this discussion. He asked me to talk to you, which to me means we all talk. I haven't been afforded the opportunity to review his actions because the entire conversation has been dominated by your reaction and statement that you won't participate, which is ironic given your level of participation. I saw no need if you weren't willing to participate. The rest of this conversation has been reacting to your reactions, which I am confident most would see (and one has) as overreactions. You seem to live at Misplaced Pages in a constant state of defensiveness, and it is tiring. I didn't insult you, I didn't demean, degrade or criticize you, I made an observation and one that I feel is likely shared by more than myself. I was willing to mediate a discussion to try to find out why you two get on each other's nerves, but again, you said you want no part of it. You feel I can't be neutral here, which is odd considering the last time the two of you were at ANI, he could easily have concluded that I can't be netural, in your favor, yet he didn't. But if you don't want to participate, then let us discontinue this. If you do not trust me in this, then I suggest you both find another person or forum to work this out. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Please close the thread, Dennis, no "discussion" was ever gonna truely happen here. (None was ever asked for by CPL, or attempted to be entered by him. It was in your imagination he asked for mediator. Where is any effort shown here which supports those claims of intended discussion. There aren't any.) This was very ANI-like, with all the irresponsible comments thrown around. Very distasteful! Please close. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:57, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, out of curiosity, if this ends up going to an ANI discussion at some point (as unfortunately, your best efforts here appear unsuccessful), will you again come in to save and defend Ihardlythinkso? While I appreciate your kindness and desire to give second chances, Ihardlythinkso has received hundreds of second chances already, yet nothing ever changes. Also, this topic, started just 12 hours ago, is a good example of what I've had to deal with for MONTHS on end with Ihardlythinkso. I hope you can appreciate how utterly exhausting and annoying this is. Especially since I have tried dozens of times to "bury the hatchet" to no avail, and really just want to edit chess articles, not engage in personal squabbles. Thanks again for your time on a Saturday! ChessPlayerLev (talk) 03:18, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• Answered in the archive summary above. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:31, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Outing sockmasters who appear to be using a proxy server

A while back we discussed CU and the dangers of outing a user. It now seems clear that the IP 99 is using a proxy server, so wouldn't that eliminate our concerns about outing? ~ GabeMc 23:01, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

• Not enough information to give an answer here. Links please. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:11, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

here, here, here, and here. ~ GabeMc 23:42, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what that has to do with outing. Obviously, someone is obsessed with you, and if it ties back to a reg'ed account, that isn't necessarily outing, particularly if it can be confirmed to be tied via SPI. WP:OUTING is a funny policy. I can tell you with certainty who certain socks are, as it was done via an SPI investigation, as part of a necessary process, due to abuse. If you point out the same info outside of an official process, you open yourself open to sanctions. It is problematic to say the least. Fortunately, I tell everyone who I am, and anyone smart enough could easy mail me a letter, but I don't have a boss to worry about and I'm fully trained to defend myself under any circumstance, so I can't technically be outed. Others are not so lucky, which is why the policy exists. If you have a name to attach to that IP, I still suggest you do it in private, as I don't want to see you get stuck with some type of blame. Ironic that you can be sanctioned for outing a troll, but that is how it sometimes works out. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:53, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

It has to do with outing because I was under the impression per this thread that you were of the position that we couldn't really do anything about this troll since it could lead to outing a known user by connecting an IP addy with a Username. I do have a couple strong candidates so my question is if this needs to go to SPI, or can I request a CU without an SPI at this point? ~ GabeMc 00:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

In cases where you are concerned about outing, but are confident of the linkage and can provide reasonable evidence, your best bet is to contact a CU directly, via email. They can run the checkuser, and just silently block the IPs, ranges, or will know how to react, privately. User:DeltaQuad is a good source, so is User:WilliamH, as they are both quite active. That keeps you out of trouble (ironic, yes) and is more likely to get results. CU's are bound by policy to keep things private, and you never get in trouble releasing info that links IPs to names this way. As an admin/clerk, my "powers" are quite limited, actually. I can block, sure, but I can't see the logs and such like a CU can. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:20, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again Dennis, you've been informative and helpful as always. ~ GabeMc 00:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't think a Checkuser can be a huge help here. These edits do appear to be from proxies. The good old WP:DUCK test is probably the best. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, if there are two registered users suspected of being the same person, and the master of the troll socks then a CU may help, no? Also, I wanted to ask you Elen, because on Casliber's page you said: "Can confirm this is not a sock and I believe it is the same person from the first edits at the end of June." 1) Do you still think they are not a sock and 2) Why exactly did you think you could confirm that they weren't a sock? ~ GabeMc 01:01, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I often say that Checkuser only catches the stupid ones - fortunately most trolls are stupid. Not to go into too much detail, but if your troll is clever enough to edit through proxies (and it does appear to be the same person each time) then they might be clever enough not to connect themselves to the IP used by their registered account. In the case of the previous IP, they were editing from their cable ISP account, not thru a proxy. Four checkusers have checked between then and now and could not identify any other editors on that IP. Who are the two users you think are the same person? Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:35, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

That's a great explanation Elen, thanks. I am hoping that the main IP, or one of the others is connected to one of the suspected accounts. I e-mailed you the names of the users suspected of being one and the same, and possibly the troll sock's master. Thanks for your input here. ~ GabeMc 01:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll give it a good look in the morning (it's kinda late here, and they're not going anywhere....unfortunately) Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Helps to have that extra CU bit. Might ask for my very own the next go around. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Do. You've got the technical background, and we're perennially short of checkusers. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:39, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Right now, we are majorly short of clerks. I'm still deemed a "trainee" so I can't train a new clerk myself. Only a few of us working it regularly now, and we technically have more CUs than clerks, although most CUs aren't remotely active. It would be good if more CUs would get active and train new clerks, although CUs don't normally do that. Tiptoety is technically my trainer, but our schedules are polar opposite, so I never see him. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:58, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

No Country for Old Men

Due to the intollerable attempts at article ownership by two editors who refuse to "allow" reducing the size of this article to a reasonable length, it is now in dispute resolution. I invite you to comment in the process
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#http:.2F.2Fen.wikipedia.org.2Fwiki.2FNo_Country_for_Old_Men_.28film.29
Jasoncward (talk) 01:09, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Prowling cats

Hi Dennis. If you or someone has a moment, could you create and populate this cat. I'm a little busy this weekend. Cheers. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• Maybe I'm missing something (wouldn't be the first time) but it seems to have been created on the 21st, and it is auto populated due to the templates the SPI script uses. Cats are something I really need to learn more about, particularly with SPI. I've never messed with them, outside of adding them to articles via a script. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:11, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Well that's odd, because when I looked this morning and wanted to create it, it wasn't there! Obviously it was me who missed something ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:27, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Something weird at SPI

Category:SPI cases awaiting administration contains 38 cases, but only seven of these are showing up at WP:SPI. They're not transcluding for some reason. Can you help? Thanks. -- Dianna (talk) 04:27, 26 August 2012 (UTC) Actually, that's not what's happening; it looks like the structure of the page has changed a bit since the last time I used it. My case has now transcluded properly, so I will try not to worry. See you later -- Dianna (talk) 04:42, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• Never a bother. We have been having a few problems with the bot, and I've yet to figure how it all works there myself. I know there is a 15 minute delay for the bot to catch up when cases change from one category to another. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:14, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Actually, the page is borked. "Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Cases/Open" isn't transcluding. :/ About to hope on IRC and see if I can get it fixed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:17, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Thanks, Dennis. It is back to its usual presentation now. I am sending you an email on a related matter. Best, -- Dianna (talk) 14:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
      • Haven't received yet. And the SPI page is still borked, we have a team of our cracked clerks working on it. It appears the backlog is so large, the template is too large to transclude properly. :/ Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:55, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
        • Backlogs! *shakes fist* It took me a while to compose the email; it's on its way now. -- Dianna (talk) 15:07, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
          • I've had to close that issue due to a lack of problematic crossover, but please feel free to ping me with any info, I will make it as a top priority. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:26, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Hosni Mubarak's predecessor

Hi! Hosni Mubarak's predecessor as president is Anwar Sadat. This is true, but I edit Mubarak's predecessor as Secretary General of NAM. Please first look to the subject then edit it. I make it true. Thanks. Tabarez (talk) 13:43, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• Ah, you are correct, my appologies, I misread that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

SPI report for Dualus

Why did you close this SPI report? The Npmay account hasn't been blocked and there continue to be IP socks that were used recently. The only action that was actually taken was to check for sleepers, and that wasn't requested in the original SPI report. There was also no confirmation from the SPI admins that the evidence of socking is (or isn't) strong enough that we can consider these definite reincarnations of a banned user and revert his edits. The socking and disruption have certainly continued. --Amble (talk) 15:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• I forgot Sven wasn't an admin. I've checked out the case, made appropriate blocks to the user and 4 IPs, the other IPs are stale. The other two named accounts that weren't blocked aren't as sure but can be filed later if needed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:51, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Perfect. I think the two recent accounts were throw-aways, so there's no need to block them. Thank you! --Amble (talk) 16:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

And thank you in general for your hard work and dedication at SPI. --Amble (talk) 01:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh, well thank you! I'm glad to help. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Grundle2600

Just wanted to point out that Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Grundle2600 is still semi-protected. I'm just letting you know so it doesn't become a problem or escalate into an edit war.

However, after Frood on IRC said:

<Frood> LikeLakers2: if a clerk removes something from an spi page, there's probably a good reason they did it.

I'm leaving it like you had it. Just wanted to let you know. :) LikeLakers2 (talk | Sign my guestbook!) 16:13, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• We were having problems with transclusion, and still are, which I why I was cleaning up cases that had been modified just before the problem manifested itself. Actually, the page is still protected, when I removed that template, it only removed the little lock image at the top of the page, it didn't take away the protection, which is at a lower level of software. The lock image/template really isn't needed for archives., it still will not allow IPs to edit and shows up in the protection log. The template is just eye dressing, nothing more. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
• Duh me, that is move protection, not semi-protection, but you get the idea. It still won't let them move. Still debugging the entire SPI page :/ Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:54, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• If you don't want it transcluded, you do know there is such a thing as <noinclude></noinclude> , correct? LikeLakers2 (talk | Sign my guestbook!) 18:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
• Also, if it still shows the SPI pages in Category:Misplaced Pages pages with incorrect protection templates after fixing the transclusion problem, just do a null edit. :) LikeLakers2 (talk | Sign my guestbook!) 18:38, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Possible course of action against an edit warrior

Hello Dennis

I hope you are doing well. It seems bothering you have become quite a habit! I am told that in case I run into a dispute with an edit warrior who has a history of edit warring, I must contact an administrator. So, here I am.

A few days ago, someone changed the licensing scheme of Internet Explorer 9 from "freeware" to "MS-EULA". I reverted the changed and then we discussed. He very polite, very understanding and very cooperative. We reached a consensus. "Freeware" got to stay. But now, the same issue seems to have attracted the attention of an edit ninja, one Schapel (talk · contribs). Like before, he changed, I reverted, I opened a discussion thread in his talk page and another in the article talk page. But he has hit the revert button again. I think it is wrong, is it not? WP:BRD says there is no second R in BRD.

I don't know what you can do but I contacted you because I feel unsafe: If anyone look at the article history, it will seem as if I am the edit warrior because I have two reverts of the same nature in succession. I will not counter-revert and will try to behave myself but I still feel unsafe.

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 18:50, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• Are you sure it is freeware? Before jumping in, I went and looked at the license itself which requires that you own a MS operating system, and the license itself is a supplement license, not a regular license, and it is a supplement to a licensed product that isn't free of charge. That is the kicker to me, that the license isn't stand alone, but is issued only a supplement to a variety of products, all MS operating systems. As to the "type" of license, that depends on the system it is installed on, so two different computers can have completely different licensing, depending on the MS-EULA of that particular machine, and if it has been updated, then that EULA has been updated too, so there are at least a dozen possible "licenses" that this could supplement. In that case, "MS-EULA" is very likely the most accurate way to describe it, since the IE9 license does not exist without one of the various end user agreements from MS. "Freeware" is a marketing term, not a legally defined license type anyway, and MS is known for their creative use of the words "free" and "open source". Now, I could be completely wrong here, but at the very least, there is a very good and plausible reason why "freeware" is not accurate, even if some sources have used the phrase. Likely, other sources can be found, or will be, that dispute the term. Because of that, WP:BRD comes into play, and I think it will require more work on the talk page. You both have reasonable arguments, your's based on the use in sources, their argument (which is likely similar to mine here) based on the technical merits of the license itself, which never uses the word "free" once, yet has the phrase "You may not use it if you do not have a license for the software.", which is a limitation beyond traditional "freeware", and into the realm of "no extra cost if you already bought our other product", which is not how "freeware" is defined any place I have seen the phrase used. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:37, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello, again

Your input is welcome in the talk page but that is not why I called you. (I can discuss if necessary, then I can be a good negotiator, a modest winner or a loser with no hard feelings whatsoever.) My concerns here is what I wrote about in boldface. If you think I am being unnecessarily concerned, I won't discuss it.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 20:42, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh that? Pffft. We all will double revert from time to time. I didn't labor it because you obviously had no intention of laboring it, you were on the talk page working with others, and you sought outside advice. Your actions were wouldn't even be on my radar for "edit warring". You are acting in the spirit of WP:BRD, that is all we can ask of our fellow editors. My comment there was just about how you can have more than 2 words in an info box, not what goes in the info box. Accuracy always trumps pithiness in an infobox. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello

Thanks for you optimism. Still, I am glad I contacted you when I did because the radar is about to get messy: User:Miros 0571 has reverted me in all other eight Internet Explorer articles. (I have a feeling has been stalking me ever since you blocked him for his gross insults in my talk page.) Overall, an admin who has not been monitoring the whole thing might have trouble telling who is the troublemaker. I'll stick to the discussion, will be nice with Miros and hope for the best.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 06:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Optimism is always my first choice. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be fun, after all. Altruistic, but fun and personally rewarding, so a positive outlook on all things is healthy, particularly since I have to mop up around here. And...those multiple reverts do seems a bit WP:POINTy, but not actionable at this time. Keep me posted. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:39, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi. It seems you are not invite to DRN. Well, I don't comment on should or should not here. Just know that a DRN entry is open at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard § Talk:Internet Explorer. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 13:14, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like a perfectly logical way to deal with the dispute. Since I've expressed an opinion, it is likely better I sit it out. I'm confident that you all will be able to work it out there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:17, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Interesting

ThePariahOne claims to be British, while Mega thingy is Indian. Look at the spelling in TPO's last request - three words there are not spelled the way a Brit born and educated would spell them. A lot of Indian written stuff uses US spelling, as does TPO. A much lesser feeling is that I would be disappointed (as a writer) to find I had written two characters who talked so alike. Peridon (talk) 22:30, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• User:WilliamH refused the unblock request after he did a checkuser on them, hence the  Likely notation, a feature you normally only see in WP:SPI parlance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:40, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
• Keep in mind that I've already had to block this user as a block evading IP after leaving messages on my and Boing!'s talk pages. User:117.199.80.97. So I'm not inclined to be swayed by crocodile tears. It will be up to another admin to determine. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:55, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

offer of help

Several people have suggested you would be a good person to serve as a mentor through the process. I'd like to take you up on it if it's still good. It's fine if you'd like to email me. all the best Scholarlyarticles (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• I will be glad to help. I'm short on time this afternoon, but will email you later today. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• I have been working to help Scholarlyarticles be better able to be receptive to your help, and we have made some good progress together, as you will see from their talk page. I've suggested a strategy there that may bear fruit. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 22:15, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• As you will see from the talk page there, it will take some time to help the editor be less sensitive and to understand that this is an impersonal place. The second of the two recent deletions removed what I hoped was helpful. Its not the fact f the deletion that interests me, but the content of the deletion, if you follow me. I'm not wedded to anything I write here, after all ) My thoughts are that the editor is receptive, but has not, so far, grasped what to be receptive of. One of the issues I see is that they are, probably, correct in what they wished to add to the Henchman article, but that Misplaced Pages's rules do not (yet) allow the addition. I found that a challenging concept to grasp when I joined, too. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 07:50, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your early support in my successful RfA and breaking the monotony with your Cowboys question. In hindsight, Babe Laufenberg or Ryan Leaf might have been more appropriate responses. I hope to continue to maintain your trust in me.—Bagumba (talk) 00:01, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

• No problem. It is a bit easier to be vote #104 in a popular RfA, but when I find a good candidate, I prefer to support early. And sometimes a little humor is helpful as well. I'm confident you will do well with the bit. Feel free to ping me if you have questions about all the new buttons. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

note:

I dropped by ATG's talk page and was going to say something - but read your post first. I didn't really have much to add to it - so I didn't. Best. — Ched :  ?  01:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

• Well, I don't want to see him blocked but damn, he can't keep doing that. This is more than incivility, and it doesn't matter that he is right on the subject matter. It is a complete waste of his skills. I just wish there was something I could do to convince him that he needs to consider some kind of mentoring, or to work in less contentious areas, or something. This has become a habit for him, and I'm afraid he is one ANI away from an indef. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Feedback requested at The Village Pump.

Hi Dennis. I have a proposal at the village pump about introducing a color scheme to the text editor so it is easier for newer editors to differentiate between different kinds of syntax, particularly references. I'd welcome your feedback at the village pump whenever you have some time. I, Jethrobot (note: not a bot!) 07:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Groupthink ;-)

Good call with the declined request. This is clearly a years-long term pattern for M: Provocation followed by counter-accusations. Enough of this. Tijfo098 (talk) 14:19, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Crimean Karaites/Turkic Karaites disputed move

Denis - User:Kaz unilaterally moved the article on Crimean Karaites to Turkic Karaites on 27 August without discussion. This was evidently a controversial move. I have posted messages on the the talk pages of Kaz, the editor who tried to revert this moe (using the wrong process) and the IP editor who reverted him/her. I have suggested that the move should be proposed on Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. Unfortunately, because an editor has edited the redirect page, it is not possible for me to move the page back to its old name so that the discussion can be in the form of Kaz explaining why the move should take place.

Please could you move the page back to its old name to facilitate a move discussion.--Toddy1 (talk) 16:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

•  Done. I've left a note on the talk page of the article, after reverting the blanking, that explains it should not be moved again until a consensus forms that establishes that a move is appropriate. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.--Toddy1 (talk) 17:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dennis, thank you for getting involved in the move, and thank you for bringing up the WP:BRD which is so often overlooked by the newer editors. Could you check to see if I have put all the tags are in the right place for the discussion now? Many thanks. Kaz 20:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

• I moved the tags to the bottom of the page to discuss, I think you just do them in line. I haven't done a lot of move discussions, so not completely sure, but think that it just goes in the regular page and the bot will list it from there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:20, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again. Kaz 22:53, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Nozdref

Hi there. Is there a possibility of helping me convince User:Nozdref to look for consensus for his/her unilateral and controversial edits before realising them? Your help would be very much appreciated. Thanks. --E4024 (talk) 21:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

After I wrote here the user changed his user name (or signature) and began to act as if he had "another" identity. I thank God for not being an Admin here... --E4024 (talk) 22:08, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

• That is one of those things that I think you need to start at the talk page, then hit WP:DRN with. I tend to think you are correct here, but I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter to speak with any degree of authority. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:24, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

E4024, I don't know how to kindly ask this, but what the hell are you talking about? I just recently have noticed what you wrote here (thanks to clicking "What links here" in my userpage) and I've used different name for signature (which was linking to my own page anyway) for short amount of time and that was like months ago, not "after you wrote here". How am I supposed to change it "after you wrote this" when I wasn't even informed about what you were writing here and found it out by coincidence just today? Stop making falsified claims like this about me and talk behind myself where I'm not even around. It would be more appropriate if you discussed with me first in my own talk page where I could be able to respond, instead of just stalking me and directly complaining to an admin. Nozdref (talk) 23:18, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

• Like I said, a content dispute needs to start on the talk page, then go to DRN if a consensus can't be reached, which is why I stayed out of it as I'm not active nor expert in subject matters relating to Turkey and the Ottoman Empire. And any user is free to ask advice anytime here, but as you can see, I recommended he use the talk page as well so no hard was done. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Yep, I know. Just wanted to respond to the personal slander he wrote. Thank you, nevertheless. Nozdref (talk) 14:19, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

User: 216.31.246.114

Dennis, I think it's time to withdraw this user's talk page access while he/she is blocked. The page is littered with NPA violations by the IP, his IP sock and the sockmaster, which the two affected editors and I have repeatedly removed. He was quiet for a while, and has now started up again, adding new accusations and personal attacks; I haven't waded in since the new round of activity today. Edit summaries in response to reverts have violated NPA as well, as well as continuing to accuse the two affected editors of being socks of one another. Moreover, he's well over WP:3RR. I've seen talk page access removed and blocks extended for a lot less. Thanks! --Drmargi (talk) 00:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

•  Done Extended and talkblocked. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:11, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Attaboy! This one is really out of control and needed a good reigning in. --Drmargi (talk) 01:30, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Talk page notifications of blocking

Just letting you know that I noticed you blocked 24.170.192.254 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 142.197.8.220 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) today, but didn't post notifications of blocking on their talk pages - I've added them. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:04, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

• I probably need to do that more often. I'm used to not tagging IPs at SPI, since most rotate so frequently. Thanks. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:46, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
  • No problem. And yeah, with the IPs it's certainly a game of Whack-A-Sock... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:25, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
    • <(((((>< That is what I give for a mini-trout ;) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:27, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Your decision on performing an SPI for Bizovne

Hello Dennis Brown,

I am somewhat despondent to see that you did not support conducting a sockpuppet investigation for Bizovne when I filled a request for it last time. Of course I acknowledge that as an administrator, you have the right to decline my request. But I would like you to check his contributions to Misplaced Pages. Between 15 June 2012 and 28 August 2012, this user did not do anything but to wage edit wars. This User:River party appears to follow around User:Koertefa to revert his additions to the project while not showing any interest to discuss anything. If River party should be Bizovne, he would not be even able to. It is because of the fact that Bizovne does not speak English. On the other hand, if a user should edit war with one another which is always the same person,viz. User:Koertefa, and does nothing else over two and a half months, it sets a very bad example of Misplaced Pages:Harassment. Imho, this should be worthy of an indef-block, even if you haven't seen enough pieces of proof of supporting a sockpuppet investigation.--Nmate (talk) 12:17, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

• I didn't refuse, I did looked and I couldn't see a definitive link. That doesn't mean he is innocent, it means that I wasn't capable of being sure enough to make the call. Keep in mind, at SPI, we see every type of article getting abused and I am simply not familiar with every topic so all I can do is the best I can do to determine a connection or not. SPI is more art than science, and if we are not sure, we are forced to not block. Not blocking someone who turns out to be a sock can be fixed with a block later. Blocking someone who ISN'T a sock can't be undone, and can cause us to lose good editors, which is why we are forced to be conservative and cautious. It is never as obvious to us as it is to those who are working directly with the articles, it can't be since we aren't there, and we just do the best we can. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:24, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Djjazzyb‎

Hi, Dennis. I want to bring this matter to your attention: Djjazzyb‎ (talk · contribs) has been committing personal attacks towards User:Mikeymike2001 in his sandbox and attacking Mikeymike2001 in his edit summary (, ). Can you please deal with this? Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:34, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

•  Done - Final warning given. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:38, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Djjazzyb

Thanks for helping me with User:Djjazzyb. I think he attacked both you and Sjones23 with this message on his sandbox talk page.--Mikeymike2001 (talk) 19:56, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, I'm not worried if he is mad at me. If he makes attacking comments about others, however, I will have no choice but to block him. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:04, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

• As a matter of fact, you was the only person I 'attacked' in my sandbox thank you very much Mike.

Dennis, to be perfectly honest, IDGAF if you block me or whatever, I have contributed a lot to this site in the past few weeks and I don't appreciate Mikeymike2001 & other users trying to undermine me & my contributions when all I asked for was a simple explanation. Kane (talk) 07:11, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

• • You don't attack other edits here, period, regardless of how much you have contributed in the last few weeks. I've contributed almost 27,000 edits in 6 years and I would expect to be blocked if I made personal attacks against others. You are not exempt from the policies on civility and personal attacks due to the work you've done over the last few weeks. Tone it back, stop attacking, or you leave me no choice. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

• • • So what if you were kind of new here, someone deleted your contributionsto an article, you asked nicely for an explanation as to why said user DID NOT MENTION SAID DELETION IN SAID ARTICLES TALK PAGE AS SAID USER IS SUPPOSED TO? Would that not absolutely piss you off? Yes my actions as of late have been immature but in my opinion they are also justifiable within User:Mikeymike2001's refusal to follow Wiki guidelines. Kane (talk) 14:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
      • They aren't justifiable. It is fine to be frustrated or pissed or mad or any other range of emotions. It isn't ok to act out on them. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia, not a forum or blog. We require a degree of civility. I'm tolerant of disagreements and a little heated dialog, but not of personal attacks. Attack their logic, their arguments, but not the person. Point out the flaws in their argument, but you don't call someone a "dick" here, even if they are being a dick. As for removing your contributions, this is Misplaced Pages, everything you write here will be mercilessly edited, changed, added to, taken from, copied and/or removed. That is how a wiki works. Do you and I a favour and read WP:Five pillars. It is very short, and a summation of what we are and how we do it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:17, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
        • OK, well I'll give that a read, and I understand what you're saying and that I was out of line by making personal attacks. While I'm not going to apologise for my recent actions to Mikeymike2001 as I'm far to proud; I solemnly swear to make sure that this type of behaviour does not happen from me again and all my content added will be encyclopaedic and verifiable and never personal. I just want to put the last 2 or 3 days behind us. Kane (talk) 22:14, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
          • Sounds like a plan. I've been here 6 years now, and an admin less than a year. I find that that pride is a two edge sword (here and in the real world). A little of it insures you create good content. Too much of it can prevent you from admitting a mistake, or from getting along. I gave up on pride a long time ago, personally, and just focus on doing my small part in building what I think is the most important collection of facts and information ever compiled by man, Misplaced Pages. Just something to think about. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:52, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

ping

just an FYI: User talk:Ched/YRC — Ched :  ?  20:44, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

• I've given an opinion there. Likely, not a shocker. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:39, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

YRC/Cirt/Prioryman debacle

I just made the terrible mistake of reading the latest YRC/Prioryman drama. Since you seem to be one of the few level-headed people over there, I picked you to run this by. Through the whole thing, one thought kept recurring to me: What if the Wikipediocracy poster is Prioryman? Have I been spending too much time reading conspiracy theories? Bobby Tables (talk) 20:45, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

• Maybe, but the point is, we aren't sure who it is. It may very well be him, but in order to take as drastic of action as was being suggested, we need to be very sure, and we aren't. As to Prioryman posting it, however, I sincerely doubt it based on my experiences with him. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:24, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree, that's extremely unlikely. And one of YRC's supporters and Prioryman's detractors is Cla68, a 'global moderator' there. Dennis, do you agree that fear of this sort of off-wiki attempts at outing, no matter who it is who is doing it there, is part of the editor retention problem? And if so, what do you think should be done if and when YRC returns to edit? And, hmm, now that I think about it, we have editors here who are in that thread and don't seem to be discouraging the request to out Cirt. Hadn't thought about that until just now. And taking a pause to look at the thread, one of the latest posts says "Setting aside the is-delhidan-riorob question, was there really anything that terrible about the initial "if anyone has anything on Cirt, expose it" comment in the first place? The Serens and the Dougwellers of that ANI thread act like he shat on the rug and hit on his grandmother while singing Springtime for Hitler." I'd really like your take on this. As someone who edits with their real name, I feel very strongly that those who do not should have their privacy protected as much as we can. Dougweller (talk) 08:42, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Might I add to this, and away from the place where springtime for hitler is hitting the fan, that privacy online is an illusion. Despite folk wish to be private, being truly anonymous just cannot ever happen. By creating a brouhaha about this and other incidents do we not increase the illusion of privacy and thus help foster a gullibility among the, well, the gullible? Editors will stay or go at their absolute whim. Some will be affected by this incident, others by the fact that today is Thursday. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 08:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Doug, I completely agree that fear of outing does lose us a few editors, and that activities off-wiki can be considered for sanctions here in limited circumstances, but again, the issue is one of verification. We have enough trouble determining socks here, with checkuser and logs. Trying to match up editors on another site without disclosure here is fraught with problems, like this case with YRC. You also lose editors if they think our admin processes are more akin to a witch hunt or mob rule. My biggest concern is process, that the smallest among us gets the same fair treatment as the most popular. To me, that is at least as influential in editor retention as anything, as no one will want to be here if the admin process is unfair or uneven, and it is currently far from perfect. I agree with your conclusion that if we knew it was YRC trying to out someone, an indef would be warranted, there is no argument there. It is how we determine "guilt" that differs here, not the punishment. The process itself is bigger than any single case.

And Fiddle, I agree that privacy is an illusion. This is part of the reason why I changed my name to my real name a few years back, even post my picture here and don't hide that I live in Lexington, NC. Anyone smart enough could mail me a letter with very little searching. I find this keeps me honest. My life situation is such that no one can threaten my job status and I'm not concerned with personal threats for other reasons. I understand that not everyone can be so open, however, so we have to protect their privacy. In the end, everyone is outed on the internet eventually. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:02, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Now that is vital information, because I need to know where I can get a quick meal on a Sunday night driving between Charlotte and Greensboro (well, really Raleigh but we need to eat long before then). And I think I agree with what you've said above. Note that I've asked Prioryman to stay away from YRC as much as possible. Dougweller (talk) 12:19, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Exit 91 is the first Lexington exit and has all the eats. Applebee's and Cracker barrel (right, then right), Golden Coral (right, then left) is just a mile off, every fast food is within a mile (left: McD, Wendy's, KFC. right: Arbys, BK, Taco Bell, Zaxby's). Turn left at the end of the exit for half a mile and eat at Jimmy's BBQ (on the right) if you like Lexington style, they are my choice. A mile further on the right is Oceanview Seafood, which is pretty good. It is very easy to get on and off I85 there and there are several gas stations there as well. here is a map of that intersection. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:41, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

If I dropped off some urgent dry-cleaning, quite near Exit 91, late on Saturday, do you think you could get it back to me, via Wendy's, for noon next Tuesday? haha. But seriously, Dennis, you are literally the friendliest face in the Admin team, by far. Use of your real name, real picture, etc. is a real breath of fresh-air here. And has helped to produce the kind of profile to whixh all admins should really aspire. Kindest regards. 20.133.0.13 (talk) 14:30, 30 August 2012 (UTC) (shy ip editor) p.s. Springtime For Hilter is quite a jolly tune, really.

Thanks Dennis. I'm torn. We really prefer western North Carolina style BBQ, ie sweet tomato-based. So it's a toss-up, Lexington style (which of course is famous) or the Sonny's in Concord. When we want to stop will probably be the deciding factor. Dougweller (talk) 14:59, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

• I'm from Texas originally, so I do barbecue completely different than anyone here. I'm smoking out about 14 pounds of pork ribs this weekend, dry rub Texas style, plus chicken legs, country style ribs and sausage. About 10 of us getting together to drink beer, wine and eat Q. If it was Saturday evening around 6 or 7pm, you could stop by. I'm close to the Interstate. Maybe next time. Not sure if you live nearby or just passing through, not sure how much you want to volunteer here either. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:55, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I live in the UK, but am American - Jonathan Worth was a relative. My brother now lives near Burnsville in Yancey County and we're visiting him, but also visiting relatives in Raleigh (who are there simply because my cousin's a senior manager for Cisco and they've moved him there). I've never been east of Charlotte myself, but have been visiting the Asheville area, or rather Yancey County, for more decades than I like to remember. Oh, also spending several days in Houston on this trip so might try some Texas Q. Dougweller (talk) 19:42, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

FYI

Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:25, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

• I appreciate the note. The sequence of events isn't exactly in order, but I don't see any point in laboring it as his concerns are real and I don't want to diminish his expression of them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:46, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
• I ended up replying only because they said Drmies blocked someone, when Drmies did not block them, Mark Arsten did, an uninvolved admin. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:52, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Sock

I am someone who saw the ANI, looked into what the issue was all about, and decided to comment--just as Staretc. said. I do not, as far as I know, edit those silly articles on pop music. That complaint by that young person was silly--from ANI to DRN to SPI: the pattern is forum shopping, not a pattern of edits by the opponents. One wouldn't dream of calling up SPI to see if Toa and that young person were the same. Take care. 66.168.247.159 (talk) 00:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Indefinitely

What happens to my account? It's been a month since was banned indefinitely. I want to know if it can unlock and what to do. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&page=User%3AJjmihai&type=block — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.25.233.126 (talk) 20:00, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

• WP:GAB has the information for unblock requests. I already linked this on your talk page. Do not edit from an IP again or I will have to block you, as even this request is block evasion. Read, email your request via the instructions. If you edit again from an IP, you will likely never have a chance to get unblocked, so take my warning serious. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:35, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

98.204.146.142/Zimmermanh1997

Zimmerman is back on 98.204.146.142 after the 12 hour block imposed on August 21 and vandalized the WLTF page. Seems he has done this previously using 68.84.142.155. Since you blocked him previously on 98.204.146.142, I thought I would let you handle it from here.

At the present time, Zimmerman has only used the 98.204.146.142 IP and not the 68.84.142.155 IP or Zimmermanh1997 account. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:26, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Jsteel7

Greetings Dennis. Can you have a look at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Jsteel7 and analyze the case. You can find all the statements and information on the investigations case page. User:Jsteel7 has made an unblock request and by having a solid CheckUser evidence than can be handled with ease and any more future socking detected can be reported on the investigation page. I didn't want any false claims and misunderstandings from my side or anyone else and had to relist the case so that there can be an open transparency for everyone to see and a clear decision can be made. Regards. TheGeneralUser (talk) 16:22, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

• I've endorsed for CU, and noted on his page that we should wait until then. Not sure about this one yet. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:27, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Naturalistic pantheism

Any comments on this edit war? PP? Dougweller (talk) 18:25, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

• I'm likely way too involved to act as an admin here, being deistic in philosophy and someone who has worked on deism (and theism) related articles. I see it went to AFD and was speedy kept via withdraw. Need someone less affiliated to look at it. This is one of the few topic areas I can't admin in. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:30, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
• I went ahead and made an appeal for more discussion on the talk page, but that and participating solely in an editorial role is all I can do. If it gets revert happy, I will take it to RFPP. I think they both just have different ideas and need to discuss it, I will do what I can to facilitate that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Dennis I am glad a well-meaning senior editor has stopped by. You are absolutely right that user Allisgod and myself have different ideas. My idea is to provide accurate and neutral information that does not favoritise one version of Pantheism over another.

Allisgod is editing ideologically, not neutrally and his ideological goals are inconsistent with accuracy and neutrality. Ever since he appeared on the scene he had tried in three Pantheism articles (Pantheism, Classical Pantheism and Naturalistic Pantheism) to push determinism, Classical Pantheism, and Charles Hartshorne, and to remove references to Naturalistic Pantheism including an attempt to get the page deleted. His pattern of behavior has been blatantly obvious and openly stated. He is completely impervious to all attempts on my part to compromise or agree.

He started out with a lot of OR but he has now learned the rules and usually cites others. However, his source selections are biassed and his summaries of what they say are inaccurate and biassed towards determinism.

If you look at the Naturalistic Pantheism article you will see that he is repeatedly removing a perfectly good and increasingly well sourced history section and replaced a broad intro section with a few carefully selected misinterpreted quotes.

Dispute resolution does not work with him - he tries to turn it into a trial aiming at a verdict.

I am concerned that if this article gets Full protection, it should not be imposed based on one of his versions. How does that system work?--Naturalistic (talk) 20:45, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Full protection is a method of preventing anyone from editing, forcing them to use the talk page, but is usually only done for 3 to 7 days. We need to try to look past the personal issues and focus on content here, put the past in the past if we can. If he is pushing a POV (I haven't looked close enough to tell) and it is problematic, I can't personally act since I'm too involved, but I can bring the issue up at the appropriate venue. Hopefully, that isn't necessary and we can just talk this out. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:50, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

I have never been bothered by the personal stuff - I have a thick skin. I am concerned about accuracy and neutrality, very concerned in this case, so I do focus on content on the one hand, but I have to answer Allisgod's endless series of personal attacks on me. I don't usually answer them by insulting him back, though I do point out his editing bias and his inaccurate use of sources because these are affecting Misplaced Pages's articles and providing misleading information to Misplaced Pages visitors.

I am really not optimistic about "talking it out" - I have tried this many times over, it has never worked. He invoked dispute resolution once instead of talking/compromising, and he used it to try to get sanctions against me, not to get the dispute resolved. And another time he went to Afd over Naturalistic Pantheism to get the whole article deleted, which you know about. If it's protected for 3 or 7 days - how do you decide which version to protect? In any case, given his mentality, it will all just start again as soon as the page is opened up.--Naturalistic (talk) 21:04, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

The difference is that now I'm involved, and while I won't act as an admin here, I'm very confident that I can be neutral about content. This doesn't mean taking your side, this means taking Misplaced Pages's side and insuring that a discussion takes place. If it goes to DRN, ping me and I will be there as an editor as well. I don't have a preferred version here, just a desire to fix the article. And I have enough optimism for the two of us, so that is fine. When it gets protected, in a case like this, it is just frozen with whatever version exists at the time, with no endorsement of any version. Protecting isn't taking a stand on the content, it is just to force discussion. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Another duck I missed

Only spotted this when looking at Commons logs, quite incriminating. Obviously Slythering Around32 was blocked here per Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Marquis de la Eirron/Archive#17 June 2012. The reason for the new Commons accounts is due to any new account adding Slythering Around32 images from Commons to articles here being pinged as a sock quite quickly. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:25, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

• add a note in the case or just add to the list, I've asked for a sleeper check, which should make it pop up. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:26, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

•  Done 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:31, 1 September 2012 (UTC)