Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:47, 6 September 2012

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy.

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Misplaced Pages spamming its own users talk pages

I would appreciate your input on the appropriateness of Misplaced Pages using opt-in vs. opt-out for internal postings to user talk pages.

A new internal newsletter used an opt-out model for distributing a notice of itself to editors active in dispute resolution - not sure how they are defining "active" though, as I certainly would not have classified myself active; yet my talk page was one of several hundred to receive it (based on the Bot's contribs, I estimate between 900-1000 recipients.

The only way given to avoid receiving the newsletter is by adding your name to Misplaced Pages:Dispute Resolution Improvement Project/NewsletterOptOut. A sample of this notification can be found at User talk:Ocaasi#The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1), and complaints about the spamming can be found at the same user's talk page, at User talk:Ocaasi#I feel spammed.

Is it acceptable for internal newsletters to use an opt-out model, or should we exclusively use an opt-in model as was done for distribution of the long-running The Signpost newsletter? Your comments on this would be greatly appreciated. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:45, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

First let me apologize. People are reasonably frustrated and their criticism has been heard. That said, a few precautions were taken to minimize the disruption:

• The full newsletter was not sent, only a link to the newsletter
• Only editors who were highly and recently active in dispute resolution received the link
• An opt-out list was provided immediately
• The issue was raised at the Administrators' Noticeboard for Incidents prior to the mailing: link to discussion

I hope that mitigates some of the frustration, though I realize it probably won't eliminate it. Our main concern was the dispute resolution is phenomenally important to all active editors and major changes are underway. We wanted people to know about what is informing that process and to participate in it. From here on out the newsletter will be opt-in only. Cheers, Ocaasi 21:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Ocaasi, thank you for changing future distribution of the newsletter to be op-in only, I very much appreciate your changing that element of the newsletter - which entirely eliminates my complaint on how the distribution was being executed.

That said, I would still like to hear Jimbo's thoughts on using opt-in vs. opt-out for future reference. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:23, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Since this has been raised here, I'd also be interested to here Jimbo's thoughts on whether or not Ocaasi was simply following WP:Bold and if the editors who got all up in arms over this were violating WP:AGF. I know that my defense of Ocaasi may be unpopular, but he was only trying to be helpful. I think the outrage has gone too far. AutomaticStrikeout 21:17, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

• I don't think a forensic examination is necessary here. The issue is resolved, and rather quickly at that (see Misplaced Pages:Bot_owners'_noticeboard#Did_someone_seriously_approve_a_bot_to_spam_people.3F). The newsletter will not be distributed via an opt-out model in the future. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:24, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

• The extent to which people got upset over this is really silly. I can understand getting slightly annoyed at the notification and telling Ocaasi that it should be opt-in, not opt-out, but the amount of negativity and rudeness in the Bot noticeboard discussion is rather sad. Kinda agree with the one comment in there that, if this is how the people involved in dispute resolution areas act...maybe they shouldn't be involved in those areas. Silverseren 01:05, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Exactly. Makes you wonder why they are really there, doesn't it? Viriditas (talk) 07:23, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
    • OMG here too? Folks, this is not a big deal. There is no need to open multiple discussions about the same issue in multiple areas. Here, bot owners noticeboard, the bots talk page, enough is enough. Ocassi sent a few newsletters, its really not the end of the world and we are spending too much time arguing about insignificant issues like this. IF you don't want the newsletter just ignore it, or delete it from your talk page. Ocassi has changed it to opt in. Problem solved. Kumioko (talk) 10:02, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

This discussion was started without knowledge that other discussions existed; and yes, the current issue is resolved, but it would be good to have this secondary discussion that was triggered by the newsletter. This thread was started with the specific question (which none of the above replies has yet addressed): "Is it acceptable for internal newsletters to use an opt-out model, or should we exclusively use an opt-in model"? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:09, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Note: I see this question has since being started here, is also now brought up at User talk:EdwardsBot#RfC draft, where other variables to the question are also being listed, so that is likely a better location to attempt to continue the discussion. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:14, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Better link to RfC draft: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Bulk_talk_page_deliveries Ocaasi 16:24, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

The New Misplaced Pages?

• On this mediation page, the word "judge/judgement" is mentioned 20 times, including "a three-person panel of judges".
• The phrase "the threshold for a decisive outcome be set at a minimum of 67%", is also there. Could you please look at it?--andreasegde (talk) 21:07, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Very interesting but this sort of thing just hurts my head. I cannot for the life of me imagine why on earth anyone cares enough to spend this many hours fighting about it. I advise the world to relax a notch or two.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:26, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

• Indeed. Fighting over "T" vs "t"? This place is jumping the shark. I'm reminded of Golgafrinchams not being able to invent the wheel for lack of agreeing what color it should be. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:30, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

• Whisper words of wisdom, let it be. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:46, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Ahem! Let It Be... Formerip (talk) 21:49, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Hammersoft: I thought the Golgafrinchams were unable to invent fire because their marketing consultants couldn't agree on why people needed fire... or was it that they couldn't agree on what parliamentary procedure to use in their meetings to discuss inventing fire? My commanding officer swore that the entire planet was about to be eaten by a mutant star goat... sorry about that. Back to your regularly scheduled grammatical dispute. I try to Imagine (get it?) what John Lennon would think about all this were he here to see it. I think he would find it very funny, after all, here's a guy who, whenever asked where the name "Beatles" came from, came up with a different fake story every time, just because he got tired of giving the same answer, and now this project has expended gigabytes of storage (and counting) debating, with great earnestness, the crucial issue of whether to put a "The" or a "the" in front of it. There's no time for fussing and fighting, my friend... Neutron (talk) 22:30, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Jimbo could just flip a coin. And someone could make a template On 4 September 2012, Jimbo flipped a coin. From that day forth this article consistently uses..... Just think how many pointless arguments could be solved this way - French pancakes, Cultured milk products, hyphens vs n-dashes.... --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:52, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

This idea amuses me greatly. I am thinking of the natural objections and next steps. Why is Jimbo's coin so special? Even Jimbo himself acknowledges that he'd like to have systems in place so that his authority continues to be diminished over time. Is it really right for any one man's coin to have so much power? What we need is a consensus of coin flips. Decisions can only be made when at least 80% of coins agree.

The point I'm driving at is that I think there— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimbo Wales (talk • contribs) 13:38, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I take issue with the dispute being trivialized. Somehow, I don't think everyone's reaction would be the same if we had a contingent of editors going around insisting that every occurence of the indefinite article "a" be capitalized, or that we be banned from using it in the middle of a sentence. It's precisely because the community at large has refused to address this issue in the past that I and other editors have gotten so fed up with the constant bickering that we've quit Beatles-related articles entirely. Evanh2008 21:57, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

You may say Jimbo's a dreamer, but he's not the only one . . . Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:03, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Get back, Jimbo. (This is terrible, it reminds me of the time I got involved in a fish-pun match, just for the halibut, for cod's sake.) Neutron (talk) 22:35, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

• Evan, my comments do not in an sense mean that I trivialize the dispute. Quite the contrary. The fact that such a debate can occur and cause such massive upheaval is a testament to how at least some aspects of this editing model have failed. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:17, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, I do want to trivialize the issue. There is no reason you can't handle this the same way I handle American/British spelling changes in the articles I watch, namely, ignore it. Just ignore it. Really. Looie496 (talk) 22:40, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Um... No. I can't ignore it. Not when it's being brought up on a continual basis by trolls and sockpuppets engaged in a campaign to drive away everyone who disagrees with them. Not when I've dedicated a good portion of my time online to making sure no one ever has to deal with it again, only to be rewarded by constant personal attacks and threats against my life. If you don't want to care about it, that's fine, but don't presume to tell me what to do unless you know the full details of the situation. It's easy to look at it from afar and say, "Dur-hur-hur; ass-hats fighting over a tee! Funny!" But unless you've spent month after month being degraded and attacked because you tried to help resolve this like I have, you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Evanh2008 22:51, 4 September 2012 (UTC)\

Can't one of you code-bot-wizard guys (or gals) invent a thing where you put in your preferences whether you want to see "The" or "the" in front of Beatles, Yardbirds, Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band (really dating myself here I guess) and whatever, and it automatically capitalizes the "T" if you want. I've seen more amazing things done on here, that shouldn't be any problem at all. I guess it would be tough for names that are also words, like t/The Who, and let's not even talk about t/The t/The. (A little punctuation humor, or is it humour, there.) Neutron (talk) 22:58, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Or, as an alternative, siteban everybody involved. There you go – problem solved. That would at least get rid of the first over-obsessive batch until, inevitably, another batch comes around. --MuZemike 04:51, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Um....No I can't ignore it? Sure you can. You're not willing to ignore it and there's a huge difference.You can ignore it, but you aren't willing to. Silling f'n worthless argument, but you can't ignore it... --Onorem♠Dil 21:31, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

So you're suggesting... what, exactly? That I bury my head in the sand like you and everyone else have? Everyone has been ignoring it since it started, and have you seen it go away yet? Do you honestly think looking the other way and saying "lalala, I can't hear you" is going to accomplish any more than it already has? You're confusing your own interest in this dispute with its validity; they are not the same thing. If you have nothing to contribute on the subject, then do not comment, and do not demean and insult those who are actually trying to bring it to an end. Evanh2008 22:34, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

It's the kind of silly disagreement that has led to a complex mediation request and fights across the project, that could easily make one accidentally say "grow the fuck up" in frustration, whether you've been involved in the case or not. dangerouspanda 09:06, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm curious, why are disagreements over typography inherently silly and childish? This is an encyclopedia is it not? I suppose you recommend all parties stop debating voluntarily and agree to allow whoever edits the page last to have the final word? What if I went to the United States article and demanded that all instances of "the" before US be capped, e.g. "The United States"? Or how about if I went to the Toronto Maple Leafs' article and demanded all mid-sentence instances of the team name be formatted: "The Toronto Maple Leafs". I suppose anyone who oppsed me at those articles would also be a silly immature time waster. Is it possible that not every party to every dispute is equally wrong to support their position? The only reason this has now gone to MedCom is because others have passed the buck with a "shut-up and find something more important to do" reply. Is it so wrong to want this to end, but not want to voluntarily follow an arbitrary demand not supported by any external manuals of style without due process? ~ GabeMc 22:17, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

My point was about the setting up of a court with a panel of judges, who would accept a 7-to-3 decision to enforce a rule.--andreasegde (talk) 07:51, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I thought it might have been about the cultural implications of adopting a judicial model to decide details of our Manual of Style. Like, isn't there some easier way of doing this (eg WP:CONSISTENCY)? —MistyMorn (talk) 10:31, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I see no reason to believe that would be any more effective than any of the other non-solutions that have been tried over the reasons. It's taken outside (MedCom) intervention to put a stop to this because some people can't let it go. Consensus isn't enough anymore. Evanh2008 10:52, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Saying "Consensus isn't enough anymore" is what is most worrying. Creating a precedent in this way will give credence to people saying "consensus isn't enough anymore" at any time in the future. It's a long and slippery slope.--andreasegde (talk) 12:26, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I am only asking for clarification about consensus, and if it is to be abandoned in favour of a defined percentage of voters in a poll.--andreasegde (talk) 19:41, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

People obsessing over minutia in articles devising overly elaborate decision procedures to resolve such issues? Who'd have guessed that was going to happen? Tijfo098 (talk) 20:39, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I think the consensus over this issue is almost certainly that it is a monumentally stupid thing to waste so much time over. Jimbo should toss a coin, and everyone involved should find something more useful to do. If they can't, they should be shown the door. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure the coin will care who gives it a toss.

You're right about what the consensus here is, but we haven't really answered the question asked. It looks like some odd means of deciding have been suggested but rejected. There's going to be a poll (not clear what form this will take if not an RfC), a perfectly reliable editor will close it and the disputants agree to be bound. That seems to me like a good way of doing it. Maybe they care too much. But we're all capable of being nerds from time to time. Formerip (talk) 21:40, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

• Before judging everyone involved as silly time wasters, take a look at the evidence. ~ GabeMc 06:28, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Which proves the point about wasting time? Hot Stop (Edits) 06:33, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Time will tell. If the coming poll yields a clear consensus then it will be at once obvious which side was correct all along and which side was wasting other people's time. ~ GabeMc 06:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Wrong. There isn't a 'correct' answer. It is a matter of opinion, nothing more. And since there is no more likely to be a clear consensus now than there has been in the past, it will be obvious that all those involved in this facile bit of nit-picking have been wasting everyone's time yet again. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:41, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Exactly! No correct answer; sort of like the opinion as to whether the word "Misplaced Pages" should be spelled "Misplaced Pages" or "gfdxklmkldfmdkl". Evanh2008 22:49, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Whoa! Slow down there, Socrates. Seriously, you think there is no right or wrong answer to that?! Formerip (talk) 22:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Why is there not a correct answer to "the" v. "The"? Every known style guide agrees with our Misplaced Pages MoS, which says very clearly to lower-case the definite article mid-sentence when mentioning the Beatles. ~ GabeMc 23:41, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Scientology articles and our policy on biographies of living people

Recently, a couple changes to List of Scientologists that were in violation of our policy on biographies of living people (WP:BLPCAT in particular) popped up on my watchlist. A few days later, when no one had fixed them, I took a closer look and started some threads on our BLP noticeboard (, , , & ). These were all dealt with quickly. The next set of BLP issues I posted there, however, got no response and were archived without being addressed (, , & ). After all the attention that this topic area got some time ago, I am surprised to see that edits like this can be made by anon IPs on the main list article and remain uncorrected when there are over 100 people watching the list. I have no special interest in Scientology except that it serves as a conveniently polarized arena. If Misplaced Pages cannot enforce its own policies on Scientology where the opposing sides are easy to tell apart, what hope is there for the more nuanced religious subject areas? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:51, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

If the article continually gets IP vandals adding BLP issues to it, I would think it should be a candidate for indefinite semi-protection. Silverseren 01:10, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Indefinite semi-protection for all lists that have BLP implications would be a sensible and obvious idea, but it is met with resistance from those who feel that "anyone can edit" is absolute. That doesn't deal with the individual cases, though. One would think that pointing out BLP violations on the BLP noticeboard and Jimbo's talk page would be enough to get them fixed, but apparently not. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:37, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

As for me, after the fiasco of a majority in favor of flagged revisions and it still not being implemented, I'm willing to indef semi anything with BLP implications, and I hope all admins do the same. It's a shame to have to semi-protect things, but without other tools at our disposal, there is often no other choice.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:41, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Many of the additions to religious- or sexuality-related lists and categories (the two areas covered by WP:BLPCAT) are made by signed-in editors, but semi-protection would at least limit the BLP violations introduced by anon IP editors unfamiliar with our policies. I suggest that edit notices be created for all lists by religious affiliation or sexuality reminding editors of the BLP policy regarding lists. If someone feels like semi-protecting these lists, Category:Lists of people by belief is a good place to start, but it is incomplete. List of Unification Church members is one example of a list not included in that category. Similarly, Category:Lists of LGBT-related people would be the place to start for sexuality. Incidentally, since I started this thread, the edit that I pointed out to List of Scientologists has been corrected, but another anon IP has added Will Smith to the list without a source. This is a known problem area, 102 people have the page on their watchlist, page views have more than doubled since I brought it up here on one of the most watched pages on Misplaced Pages, yet the Will Smith edit has gone unchallenged. Something isn't working. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 02:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I created a bunch of editnotices for most religious and sexuality-related lists in 2010/2011 with some help from Noleander (and the editnotice is implemented on List of Scientologists), but they are clearly not 100% effective. There's a subpage in my user space listing all the ones that were done: User:Jayen466/BLP_Edit_notices. The religious ones look like this: Template:Editnotices/Page/List_of_Scientologists. (If there are any religious or sexuality-related lists that lack an editnotice, let me know and I'll create them.)

I used to do a lot of work on List of Scientologists (and have certainly removed Will Smith in the past) but I am fed up. My time is of some value, and the system is so ridiculously vulnerable that it's just an insult to expect someone to fix the thing over and over again for free.

I share your disappointment with the non-implementation of flagged revisions, Jimbo. The system is a resounding success in the German, Polish and other Wikipedias. It has practically eliminated vandalism there, because there is no point vandalising an article if your edit is only seen by one Wikipedian who reverts it, and is never seen by the public. This past week, Misplaced Pages was in the news over the Mia Love vandalism (racist and misogynist). Do we actually want to have headlines like that, just to be in the news? I sometimes wonder. I simply do not understand why this project has this addiction to vandal fighting, when there is an obvious, demonstrably working and effective way to prevent vandalism altogether. Do we like the drama so much? JN466 07:00, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Misinformation deliberately planted cannot be removed.

Why is it that misinformation is allowed to be spread by people without any counter allowed? When I try to edit the page my remarks are removed when I try to remove the erroneous information it is put up again. Despite the fact it is untrue and is being used to defame and create hatred against a certain individual and his group.

This planted story is not true and there is substantial evidence to say that it is not true yet I am blocked from amending it and the planted story is allowed to stand. Seems to me that admin should at least ask why the editing is occurring before they simply block one party from making changes.

The pages are below

http://en.wikipedia.org/MPACUK

http://en.wikipedia.org/Asghar_Bukhari

I think people should sue you if you allow misinformation to be printed about people, why should your site be used to slander people. It's disgusting.

Plus why can't you make it easier for people to talk to someone, in order to complain you have to trawl through a hundred pages, deliberately intended to put people off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chetch the Letch (talk • contribs) 00:38, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

You should discuss your desired edits on the article talk page. If there are BLP concerns (if there is unsourced information about people which is negative in the article) please be specific and it will be removed immediately. KillerChihuahua 01:06, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

The OP has been blocked as a sock. The editor's ongoing edit-wars are being discussed at WP:ANI#Crazy edit-war at Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK. Singularity42 (talk) 01:52, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I would just like to note that "Chetch the Letch" is absolutely correct on the substance here -- the material he objects to was a major BLP violation -- but the articles are currently protected with the offending material removed, so the situations seems to be stabilized. It would have been easy for an editor who understands Misplaced Pages procedures to get that material removed without resorting to socking and edit-warring. Looie496 (talk) 02:15, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

The key there is " understands Misplaced Pages procedures". I have been here for years and I don't even know every rule. There are just too many, spread across too many areas. Kumioko (talk) 10:07, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

How indeed is an editor who doesn't understand Misplaced Pages procedures supposed to instantly transform himself/herself into one who does? This problem is endemic on BLP pages, and your statement, Looie, only underscores the justice of the user's plaint "Seems to me that admin should at least ask why the editing is occurring before they simply block one party from making changes." After all that has been said along these lines, not least by Jimbo, do admins sometimes still not "at least ask why the editing is occurring"? Bishonen | talk 10:10, 5 September 2012 (UTC).

I agree completely. It's good that we have rules, but it's always important to keep in mind the greater goal of making a good encyclopedia. Blocking socks is good. Putting stops to crazy edit-wars is good. But whoever has a point, has a point. If there's a person breaking several rules at the same time because they don't have a clue (either temporarily or permanently) then yeah, we have to deal with that, with warmth and good humor I hope. But we also should never make Misplaced Pages wrong so that some annoying person doesn't "win" something.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:41, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Ehw....I like that. I have to keep that quote somewhere.--Amadscientist (talk) 18:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

By the way, it looks like the complainant was not really socking, unless you count his inability to remember his account name and creating obviously similar ones. Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Thaaqib.7ameed. This was an obvious WP:BATTLEGROUND though, involving groups of detractors and defenders of that organization. Nothing new here. The only difference between those involved in that spat and a certain kind of "valuable long term contributors" is how much time they've spent editing Misplaced Pages before they're banned. Tijfo098 (talk) 06:43, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

In other news: Bare-knuckle politics increasingly using Misplaced Pages as a venue. Tijfo098 (talk) 07:55, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit conflict or similar error

It looks as if you accidentally saved this, without finishing your sentence and at the same time removing someone else's comment in another thread. Fram (talk) 13:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I restored the deleted comment and signed Jimbo's incomplete comment, but I am not sure what he was going to say after "The point I'm driving at is that I think there . . ".

Perhaps it was "The point I'm driving at is that I think there are fish in my pants."

Or perhaps it was "The point I'm driving at is that I think there are elves eating spam in my basement."

Can someone figure out what Jimbo's point was? Richard-of-Earth (talk) 16:58, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I expect Jimbo's point is that one should be careful not to accidentally press the Enter key after deciding to abandon an impulsive edit. Looie496 (talk) 18:16, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

How odd. There was an edit conflict and I thought I resolved it properly. Sigh.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:03, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I never try to figure out those edit conflict pages. I end up just copying what I was doing and restarting the edit. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 20:11, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Hurray for you, and are you listening Jimbo? That "resolving edit conflict" screen trips up more people than it helps IMO. Copy out your comment from the bottom screen, bail out, open the page again, click edit on the section again, do it over. Ha ha on you mister founder, I learned long long ago not to trust that screen. :) Franamax (talk) 06:58, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

LFLT-B77 Server repair

Good Morning Jimmy, just to let you know that your LFLT-B77 Wikicommons server has been repaired and that I have e-mailed you the error report. I have forwarded this information onto User:Valenciano, who wanted to know whether his SFTML Report was reported. After reviewing the SFTML Report belonging to User:Valenciano, there were no errors to be found in his portfolio. Many thanks. Keith. --KeithMcEnnisLtd (talk) 19:55, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Mmm, ok. I have no idea what you are talking about.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:02, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

This is a troll and has been blocked. See WP:Help desk#Questionage and WP:Help desk#Just a quick note if you're interested, but I shouldn't bother. JohnCD (talk) 20:15, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Change to edit window

Just trying to make sure as many people see this as possible. There is change planned to the edit window for the week of the 17th. Read about the changes and leave your comments at WP:VPT#Upcoming changes to the edit window (please read). Ryan Vesey 23:23, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

WP morphed into knowledge databases

FYI: In working these past months/years to simplify complex, deeply-nested templates, I think there is a general trend emerging. Some people are determined to morph Misplaced Pages from being text articles into a structured "knowledge database" using the wp:Template system as a "poor man's database" to store/include data extracted and formatted in specific, structured ways. The {cite_web} templates (using wp:CS2 format) are an example of such structure, where the internal COinS metadata and standardized parameter names are intended to interface to cite-tools, as a type of structured knowledge for storing citations. The tree-of-life wp:Taxobox templates, which I have also been working to quicken, are a structured database to have a template named for every upper-level biological taxon, of kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, and all the related clades and sub-taxons, stored in a tree about 60 taxon-levels deep, beginning with a root taxon named "Life" (see genus "Ursa (spider)" from {{Taxobox/taxonomy|Ursa|10}}: Template:Taxobox/taxonomy

Similarly, our templates to extract town populations from population-list templates, into 16,000 articles for German or Austrian towns, also show the benefit of keeping population data stored in a knowledge base, where a few templates can be updated for lists of census data, and then 16,000 articles are automatically reformatted from those central population-list templates. As actual database interfaces are developed to store and extract such data in articles, then the use of the Template system can be reduced back to formatting of data, or interfacing to the Module system of Lua scripts to perform more complex analysis of article text. In a sense, people are right to structure the data into standardized lists, or trees, where tabular data can be directly extracted into live articles; however, we need more documentation to alert editors that such "knowledge databases" are being stored and interfaced into articles, to lessen the confusion of so many complex templates in use. -Wikid77 (talk) 02:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

That reminds me of Wikidata.

—Wavelength (talk) 05:11, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Avoiding unpleasant messages

Is there a list of articles that one should not edit if one wants to avoid unpleaseant messages such as this one ?

My previous contributions,

• 11:11, 5 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+267)‎ . . Gjørv Report ‎ (→‎Reactions)
• 10:49, 5 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+36)‎ . . Ullersmo Prison ‎ (Øystein Mæland) (top)
• 10:47, 5 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+37)‎ . . Øystein Mæland ‎ (Category:Conscientious objectors) (top)
• 10:44, 5 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+357)‎ . . Øystein Mæland ‎ (As a conscientous objector who refused to work as a conscripted military physician, he worked as a prison physician for Siviltjenesten at Ullersmo Prison from 1989 to 1990.)
• 10:05, 5 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+22)‎ . . m Gjørv Report ‎ (→‎Reactions)
• 10:01, 5 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+6)‎ . . Eurocopter EC135 ‎ (Norwegian Police Service)
• 09:58, 5 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+678)‎ . . Eurocopter EC135 ‎ (Unsuitable for police snipers)
• 09:38, 5 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+225)‎ . . Gjørv Report ‎ (Oslo's chief of police wrote in an e-mail)
• 09:29, 5 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (-78)‎ . . Gjørv Report ‎
• 08:58, 5 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+109)‎ . . 2011 Mazar-i-Sharif attack ‎ (→‎Riot) (top)
• 10:26, 4 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+342)‎ . . Øystein Mæland ‎ (The pacifism of the later police director is relevant. Undid revision 510734237 by Saddhiyama (talk))
• 09:57, 4 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (-83)‎ . . Øystein Mæland ‎
• 09:53, 4 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+342)‎ . . Øystein Mæland ‎ (He refused to perform military service as a conscript, citing his pacifist views.)
• 09:45, 4 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+8)‎ . . Gjørv Report ‎ (→‎Reactions and Post report publication developments)
• 09:33, 4 September 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+296)‎ . . USS Farragut (DDG-99) ‎ (A fact-finding commission has been constituted by Forsvarets operative hovedkvarter) --Lucabrak (talk) 08:17, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Why does a confirmed sockpuppet get unblocked after only one day?

"Maybe that's why there are so few Norwegian editors in here; every time a new user come along and do stuff that one of the admins in this projects dislike, the user gets blocked as a "sockpuppet of Sju hav"? Mentoz86 (talk) 18:07, 31 August 2012 (UTC)". --Lucabrak (talk) 08:59, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

First, I do not believe that Meco is an admin. Second, yes, there are probably much better ways to say "based on your editing pattern so far, you appear to possibly be a WP:SOCK of a previously-banned user - if you're not, sorry for the inconvenience" dangerouspanda 09:37, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

It seems that you are hinting that there are acceptable ways of saying "I do not have good faith in your edits, so therefore I am hereby taking a dump on you on your user page".
Maybe User:Roghue can enlighten us if he thinks "sorry for the inconvenience", is good enough for experiencing a "confirmed" shafting for a day. --Lucabrak (talk) 10:05, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

The admin made a mistake, removed the block etc and apologised. Mistakes happen, it is human nature. I also don't think Panda is hinting at anything. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:06, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I am PISSED OFF

Okay, I used to be a troll and a vandal. I used to be large amounts of my time insulting and upsetting users and ruining articles for my own amusement. Recently, I decided to turn a new leaf and become a decent, respectful contributor. I created an article called Adult Diapers in France. In this article, I included references and I hoped to create a series based on adult diaper production by country.

Within minutes , User:Escape Orbit slapped a speedy deletion notice onto my article, without even suggesting how to improve my article and claimed that I was 'advertising' and my page was 'unambiguously promotional'. This user did not even try to rewrite or improve this article.

Secondly, User:Purplewowies claimed that I should have taken the advice of this helpdesk first, then create my article. However this was not possible as I had already created my article BEFORE the helpdesk replied. Maybe the helpdesk should be more quicker.

In conclusion, I am getting fed up of wikipedia. I am getting fed up of how admins just pounce on you if you are a newbie. I am seriously thinking of trolling and vandalising again. Good day --RouteLeader (talk) 23:47, 6 September 2012 (UTC)