Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:57, 7 September 2012

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the L. Ron Hubbard article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10Auto-archiving period: 12 months

	L. Ron Hubbard is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 13, 2011.
Article milestones Date Process Result November 7, 2006 Good article nominee Listed June 1, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted October 23, 2008 Good article reassessment Delisted March 5, 2011 Featured article candidate Promoted Current status: Featured article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Arts and Entertainment / Military This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the arts and entertainment work group (assessed as Low-importance). This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as Mid-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Skepticism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Religion: New religious movements / Religious leaders Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by New religious movements work group (assessed as Top-importance). This article is within the scope of Religious leaders work group, a work group which is currently considered to be inactive. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Montana This article is within the scope of WikiProject Montana, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Montana on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MontanaWikipedia:WikiProject MontanaTemplate:WikiProject MontanaMontana ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Scouting Low‑importance L. Ron Hubbard is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Misplaced Pages. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ScoutingWikipedia:WikiProject ScoutingTemplate:WikiProject ScoutingScouting Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative views Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Scientology Top‑importance This article is supported by WikiProject Scientology, a collaborative effort to help develop and improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of Scientology. The aim is to write neutral and well-referenced articles on Scientology-related topics. See WikiProject Scientology and Misplaced Pages:Contributing FAQ.ScientologyWikipedia:WikiProject ScientologyTemplate:WikiProject ScientologyScientology Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WP1.0

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: DeSio, John (June 6–12, 2007). "Follow The Leader: Sticks and Stones - It's all 'fair game' for Scientology".{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Template

I added Hubbard's name to Template:Science fiction in the "related articles" section. It doesnt have to be placed on this article, but editors may decide it belongs here.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:07, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism

Hello! Need the help of an administrator. There seems to be a rampant amount of vandalism on this page; It is just appropriate to semi-protect it to lessen such incidents. Most of the culprits are unregistered users. All in the interest of bettering the page, I request that his matter be looked into in the soonest. Thanks.NestleNW911 (talk) 00:31, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Educational influences

Links to Study Tech and Applied Scholastics were added by User:Wykypydya . The heading "educational influences" was potentially confusing, because it implies that these are educational influences on LRH, rather than systems he and his followers invented and promote. Maybe they could be added to the article. The Talk page is the proper place to discuss this. MartinPoulter (talk) 17:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I think it may be appropriate to put this into the see also section.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Poor article

This is a shame for wikipedia! See the german article for the biographie of Hubbard without scientologie influence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.72.209.74 (talk) 23:19, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

And...

should one allow neo-nazies to edit hitlers biographie ? Surely not, for good reasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.72.209.74 (talk) 23:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Eagle Scout mention

I have included information about Hubbard's eagle scout achievement. It is mentioned in the early life section of the article, and should also be mentioned in the lead section. After Born in Tilden, Nebraska, he spent much of his childhood in Helena, Montana, I have added, "Hubbard is one of America’s youngest Eagle Scouts and is listed as one of the list of famous Eagle Scouts." Please see reference here: http://meritbadge.org/index.php/Famous_Eagle_Scouts. I have also cited Corydon's book as a reference. You will see the first version that I had posted and I eventually corrected -- because it clashes with information posted later on in the article, with Miller cited. Corydon writes that he secures the Eagle Scout badge at twelve years. Is there a correction that needs to be made to the statement: "Hubbard was active in the Boy Scouts in Washington, DC and earned the rank of Eagle Scout in 1924, two weeks after his 13th birthday?" Would appreciate your comment on this. Thanks.NestleNW911 (talk) 18:28, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I am actually going to revert this change for two reasons. First you used a Wiki as your source which isn't a reliable source. Secondly Hubbard isn't famous for being an Eagle scout so I don't think it should be in the lede. This decision seems consistent with the articles of other famous Eagle scouts. I can't find a single example where the mention of being an eagle scout is in the lede. Unless scouting was significant in their lives after they became Eagle scouts (ie. they participated in scout leadership in their adult lives) I don't think it deserves a mention in the lede.Coffeepusher (talk) 10:55, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Coffeepusher. Being an Eagle Scout is a small detail of Hubbard's bio, not a key aspect of his life. -- BTfromLA (talk) 18:29, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Did Hubbard won a Saturn Award?

Did Hubbard really won a Saturn Award for Battlefield Earth? It seems that this prize is reported only by Scientologic sources. I didn't found any reference to Hubbard in the Saturn Award website (and I was not the only ). The only independent source about this alleged award I was able to find online is a very short 1984 newspaper scan. --Marcok (talk) 19:53, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Battlefield Earth is a neat book, but Saturn Awards are for film and TV, not books. Battlefield Earth, the movie, would never be given an award because it sucked Xenu's balls. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 04:53, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Lede

In the interest of more NPOV, I would like to propose a change in the following section:

"Hubbard was, and remains, a controversial figure and many details of his life are disputed. The Church of Scientology depicts Hubbard in hagiographic terms, drawing on his legacy as its ultimate source of doctrine and legitimacy. He portrayed himself as a pioneering explorer, world traveler and nuclear physicist with expertise in a wide range of disciplines including photography, art, poetry and philosophy. His critics have characterized him as a liar, a charlatan and a madman, and many of his autobiographical statements have been proven to be fictitious."

There is a lack of NPOV in this part of the lead, thus we need to reframe the information to make out more neutral.

I suggest the following change:

"Hubbard was, and remains, a controversial figure and many details of his life are disputed. The Church of Scientology depicts Hubbard in hagiographic terms, drawing on his legacy as its ultimate source of doctrine and legitimacy. He portrayed himself as a pioneering explorer, world traveler and nuclear physicist with expertise in a wide range of disciplines including photography, art, poetry and philosophy. His critics have characterized him as a liar, a charlatan and a madman. This has led to a widening divide between the Church and critics of L. Ron Hubbard, and continued controversy in the accuracy of his biography."

This version provides an overview of the dualistic perspective on Hubbard's life, but does not give preference to one over the other.

About the statement from Refslund -- I feel that this statement is given too much weight. It is included in the lede and juxtaposed against the Church perspective - the perspective of a whole group of people. Can somebody tell me why Dorthe Refslund's perspective is given this much weight? If not, I don't see why we need this statement in the lead. Thoughts?NestleNW911 (talk) 23:25, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Just following up on my post. Any thoughts or feedback?NestleNW911 (talk) 00:24, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Thoughts, comments?NestleNW911 (talk) 19:02, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

The part about the "widening divide," which replaces "proven to be fictitious" is clearly not an appropriate change: it is muddled and sure looks to me like an attempt to paint LRH in a more positive light, accuracy be damned. About the Refslund quote: I agree that's not really a key item of Hubbard's bio that needs to be summarized in the lede--I'd have no objection to deleting that sentence. -- BTfromLA (talk) 19:57, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I restored the Refslund quote, but am now convinced by BT's argument that it is not sufficiently relevant (per WP:WEIGHT), for inclusion in the lede. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:01, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for saying so. Misplaced Pages would be a better place if all of us were so gracious and open minded. -- BTfromLA (talk) 21:42, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Earth Opera

I think that L. Ron Hubbard was an adventurer. In the article, his Early Life talks about many adventures in the prairie and in Asia. The University and Explorations section is full of adventure, real and imagined. In later sections, he goes to Alaska, has misadventures in the Navy, and then becomes the head Kool-Aid brewer in Scientology. The CoS's Sea Org later bumbled through the Med and Caribbean while Hubbard was solving life's mysteries with Scooby Doo and the crew of the Mystery Machine.

Author, adventurer, and founder of the CoS. That sounds like a lead to me. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 05:17, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

He may qualify as an adventurer, though the case you are making for it is what qualifies as "original research" in Misplaced Pages (i.e., while it may be a reasonable claim, it is your claim, not a reflection of the characterizations of Hubbard in third party reliable sources. See WP:OR if you aren't familiar with this policy.) The CoS does label Hubbard as an adventurer (a bit surprisingly, given that "adventurer" sometimes implies dishonesty), but their publications don't pass the reliability test, plus they also promote him as a poet, photographer, musician, philosopher, mariner, etc. You may be able to find some reliable source that supports the adventurer idea, but regardless of the source, being an adventurer isn't what he's best known for--is it?--thus it doesn't belong in the first sentence. A sense that his life included many colorful adventures should be conveyed by the intro section, though--do you think that comes through in the second paragraph? -- BTfromLA (talk) 06:56, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The words "OR" get tossed around alot these days. I feel my latest edit summary, though grammatically flawed for space allowed, explains my position. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 07:23, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with BT, doesn't belong in the lede and based on the quick reversions from multiple editors it appears to be against consensus.Coffeepusher (talk) 04:07, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

it has been changed to "adventurer" by Luke 4 times, and each time a different editor has changed it back. No one but Luke seems to support this editCoffeepusher (talk) 04:10, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Blood Brotherhood

On the section: "Contemporary records state that his grandfather, Lafe Waterbury, was a veterinarian, not a rancher, and was not wealthy. Hubbard was raised in a townhouse in the center of Helena. According to his aunt, his family did not own a ranch but had one cow and four or five horses on a few acres of land outside Helena. Hubbard lived over a hundred miles from the Blackfoot reservation. The tribe did not practice blood brotherhood and no evidence has been found that he had ever been a Blackfoot blood brother."

This perspective shuns church perspective altogether. There is a need to juxtapose church perspective vis-a-vis other sources in the matter in order to achieve NPOV. It reads the same way that most of this article does -- taking the perspective of a few sources as a default and ignoring what has been said by the church or LRH himself. Shouldn't the church perspective have a significant weight in the article as a whole? I suggest that we reframe the section using the L.A. times article that serves as its reference. Here is my proposed text:

"One point of controversy for Hubbard’s early life is his being a blood brother to the Blackfeet Indians in Montana. According to Hubbard, he was four years old when a medicine man named “Old Tom” made him a “blood brother” of the tribe. At least one source disagrees with such a claim and says the tribe did not practice blood brotherhood, and that “Old Tom” would not be a common name given the lack of Christian names during the period."

The following would serve as the reference:

Staking a Claim to Blood Brotherhood Series: The Scientology Story. Today: The Making of L. Ron Hubbard. First in a six-part series. NEXT: Part Two-- The Selling of Scientology.; Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 24, 1990. pg. 38

Thoughts, comments? Thank you.NestleNW911 (talk) 22:20, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

isn't all that covered in the previous paragraph? and no, WP:WEIGHT does not offer special privileges for the subjects of articles.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Coffeepusher. Thank you for your input. It is not about offering "special privileges" for subjects of articles. It's about balancing points of view. The Church and LRH perspectives are other perspectives that should be mentioned along with perspectives found in other sources. This is all about neutrality, and due weight given to various perspectives.NestleNW911 (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Following up on my proposed text above. Thoughts? Comments?NestleNW911 (talk) 21:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Boy Scouts mention

About the excerpt: "Hubbard was active in the Boy Scouts in Washington, DC and earned the rank of Eagle Scout in 1924, two weeks after his 13th birthday. In his diary, Hubbard claimed he was the youngest Eagle Scout in the US." We need to reframe "In his diary, Hubbard claimed.." This avoids and ignores church perspective on the matter and turns it into a trivial facet of his biography.

My suggestion is to reframe it to: "The Church of Scientology claims that he was the youngest Eagle Scout in the US, based on Hubbard's own statement." This change is all in the spirit of NPOV.

I am ready to make the change. Any feedback?NestleNW911 (talk) 21:53, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I've not read the book that this bit of info is sourced from, does it say that the church makes this claim? Or that Hubbard's diary contains the claim? (Jonathanfu (talk) 22:19, 12 June 2012 (UTC))

I'm not sure about the book, but two official websites by the church contain this bit of information. Here are the links: http://www.scientology.org/faq/scientology-founder/who-was-lronhubbard.html http://www.lronhubbard.org.au/the_early_years/

Since this is official content form the church, this would count as a claim from the church correct?NestleNW911 (talk) 23:55, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd oppose that proposed change. The source for the claim is Hubbard. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 00:54, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

If you notice, my proposed change says: "The Church of Scientology claims that he was the youngest Eagle Scout in the US, based on Hubbard's own statement." The church claim is based on the main source of the statement, which is Hubbard.NestleNW911 (talk) 22:42, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm trying to say, it doesn't matter what the church says or thinks on this point. It's Hubbard's claim about his time in the scouts, sourced to Miller's book, citing Hubbard's diary. What the church says on the matter isn't relevant. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:14, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

What qualifies as a religion?

What qualifies as a religion, and how does scientology fit in as a religion? 86.140.52.57 (talk) 23:45, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll take a stab: basically, Misplaced Pages makes decisions based on what has been established via other sources that are deemed "reliable." So wikipedia does not develop a definition of religion. If something can shown to have been understood and discussed as a religion in academic, legal and reputable journalistic sources, and to have been done so to a significant degree, so that it's not just an outlying "fringe" point of view, than it counts as religion so far as wikipedia is concerned. -- BTfromLA (talk) 23:24, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Basically, Scientology qualifies as a religion because it is described as such in several specialist reference books, like encyclopedias and dictionaries, on religion which call it a religion. Many of them might have slightly different definitions of the term themselves, because there does exist some question regarding the precise definition, but they do seem to agree about Scientology qualifying as a religion. John Carter (talk) 23:59, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Some more answers here: . (I particularly like "A religion is a cult which has become acceptable.") Prioryman (talk) 17:42, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Like Christianity has - http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/cult.shtml - this is an interesting and related external. Youreallycan 19:21, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I really don't think a page that says "The Bible has been proven to be completely true and accurate, and is the only “sacred writing” about which anyone can truthfully make that claim" is a credible source for anything... :-/ Prioryman (talk) 19:52, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Image of him

Can somebody upload an image of him that was taken more recently, preferably less than 36 years before his death? Acoma Magic (talk) 04:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

this article is too long

This reads like a systematic refutation of anything people believe about this guy. It's point/counter-point all the way through. Aren't we paying just a little too much attention to this guy? Aside from the followers (who won't be swayed by a wiki anyway), there aren't that many people who are interested enough in some borderline/Histrionic personality case to justify such a long article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.57.60.251 (talk) 13:56, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I find it absurdly hilarious that anyone would bother to read this. I got a bit of curiosity after some Scientology article I read in the paper. Anyhow, it is blatantly obvious that Adolph Hitler was an evil, lying, power crazed charlatan. How on Earth can Misplaced Pages be encyclopedic without pointing out such truths about Joseph Smith or L Ron Hubbard? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.217.79.90 (talk) 01:54, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Early Life

I have revised a short section on "Early LIfe" regarding his travels in Japan in China. This is in the interest of NPOV; the section (and the whole article itself) lies too heavily on Miller and Atack, whose perspectives on Hubbard are not neutral.NestleNW911 (talk) 23:57, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages featured articles
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
• All unassessed articles
• FA-Class biography articles
• FA-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Low-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Arts and entertainment work group articles
• FA-Class biography (military) articles
• Mid-importance biography (military) articles
• Military biography work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• FA-Class Skepticism articles
• Mid-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles
• FA-Class Religion articles
• Top-importance Religion articles
• FA-Class New religious movements articles
• Top-importance New religious movements articles
• New religious movements articles
• WikiProject Religion articles
• FA-Class Montana articles
• Unknown-importance Montana articles
• WikiProject Montana articles
• FA-Class Scouting articles
• Low-importance Scouting articles
• FA-Class Alternative views articles
• Mid-importance Alternative views articles
• WikiProject Alternative views articles
• FA-Class Scientology articles
• Top-importance Scientology articles
• WikiProject Scientology articles
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics