Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:28, 23 September 2012

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ownership of content page.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 6 months

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

See WP:PROPOSAL for Misplaced Pages's procedural policy on the creation of new guidelines and policies. See how to contribute to Misplaced Pages guidance for recommendations regarding the creation and updating of policy and guideline pages.

To-do list for Misplaced Pages:Ownership of content: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2019-08-11 Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Expand : *Coverage of user pages (and user talk pages) and maintenance of articles needed. Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Expand : The section focused on page ownership explains the meaning of the bronze star icon (which signifies a well-researched peer-reviewed article with sufficient bibliography) and the green cross icon, but it does not explain the padlock icon that is also used in the same upper-right corner of certain pages and seems to mean that a page so marked can be edited only by some unnamed group of editors with higher privileges. Could we please consider mentioning and explaining this category of pages in this section? Marcin Żmudzki (talk) 16:59, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

This page has been mentioned by a media organization: Virginia Heffernan (5 November 2010). "Prize Descriptions". The New York Times. Retrieved 2 September 2011. With authorship disputes, Misplaced Pages advises, "stay calm, assume good faith and remain civil." The revolutionary policy outlined on "Misplaced Pages: Ownership of Articles" — search Misplaced Pages or Google for it — is stunningly thorough.

Tryptofish's insight

(this first paragraph I copied here from his talkpage) Yeah, too right, it does go over into NPA. I hadn't had a good look at that one or considered it. What I had been doing was besides that part, grouping some of the different kinds of comments to help clarify why they are bad comments, and give editors direction in what they should do. If you tell a person / child / editor only what it is not allowed to do, and nothing about what it could / should / can do, then the only things they have in their head are the wrong things. So there is rebellion or subversion to choose from. Besides giving the direction, I think linking between the pages would help a lot to explain why some ownership comments are wrong, like some of these

(these ones could be added under the attack section of the page, or grouped as the personal attack examples)

1. "You are a new editor"
2. "You don't have enough experience"
3. "You're ruining the article"
4. "Hi! I notice that you are a new contributor to the widget article. Thank you sooo much for your ideas. It is wonderful to know that so many novices like yourself have taken an interest in this article. Anyhow, I have made some small amendments to your changes. You might notice that my tweaking of your wording has, in effect, reverted the article back to what it was before, but do not feel disheartened. Please feel free to make any other changes to my article if you ever think of anything worthwhile. Toodles! :)"
5. "You marked my article for deletion."
6. "you're driving other editors away from this project."
7. "Do not make such changes or comments until you have significantly edited or written work of this quality."
8. "Your work is purely childish and unhelpful to the article."

So rather than a mixture of comments with no form, I was grouping by type and then working to explain what is wrong with those comments, so a small excerpt pointing out NPA with a link across to that policy may turn up the clarity. There are other groupings as well, I should write those up so we can look at what is wrong with them and link across to the policies that cover that subject. Penyulap ☏ 08:27, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Other groupings

Discussing yourself, not the content (not a personal attack, but violates the third pillar)

1. "I have spent hours editing this article. You are vandalizing my work!"
2. "I/he/she/we created this article" (in a manner implying some kind of inappropriate right or status exists because of that).
3. "Hello, and welcome! I saw your edit to this article, and I appreciate your help, however I am an expert on the subject, and for the accuracy of this article, I have reverted your edit. If you have any suggestions, please put them in the talk page and I will immediately proceed to ignore them."
4. "Unless it is wrong or has errors, please do not make such changes or comments without my/his/her/our approval."
5. "I don't own that book, so I can't confirm your source."

or how many people you are (third pillar again)

1. "We think you should you should make some small edits first, it would be better for everyone.
2. "We don't need this. Thanks anyways."
3. Do not use "We" when you actually mean "I", then discuss the content, not yourself
4. any sentence containing "the other editors think" rather than "see the poll in archive 6"
5. "Please clear this with project X first."

but that would just be personal ownership, rather than ownership that may verge on personal attacks Penyulap ☏ 08:31, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

timetable (linkable, but mostly an essay sort of level link)

1. "I don't have time to look into this right now, but I prefer some other version"
2. "You didn't have consensus because I was offline."
3. "I haven't had time to confirm what you wrote. I have other obligations besides wikipedia, you know."
4. "Please refrain from making any major changes while I am away"
5. "I'm going to add a better one when I have the time."

maybe adding soft advice like 'When you don't have time to research, check references and new material, but other editors do, it may be time to consider 'leaving it to them' until you do have time.' Penyulap ☏ 08:34, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

What prompted this discussion was an edit to the policy page that I reverted. To make a long story short, please let me suggest the following. I don't really think that we need to make any major changes to this policy page or to its organization, but maybe a "Further information: Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks" hatnote at the top of the appropriate section (which one?) would be a good idea. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually it's interesting the way that you phrase that, because I genuinely want to help improve the way that the list of comments itself is presented, so a broader range of editors can understand better the reason why each kind of remark fails, and what policy is associated with it.

Thing is, I just got through doing a little bit to help with the WP:BRD essay, which outlines how to prompt discussions :) sorry, the co-incidence makes me smile a little bit. That one is just an essay, and this one is policy, however I'm pretty sure that the list could use a little help in specifying what is wrong with each comment, rather than just saying they are wrong because it's ownership. Sort of a see also and main poicy for each comment so it links through to the related pages.

I generally gain more ideas from critique than agreement, but as far as I can see, we are on the same page. A hat-note would simply be ideal, I feel that the closer to each remark the better the the chance of associating the remark with the policy and editors clicking on through if they don't understand the problem with the remark. But which section ? that is the question indeed. The comments don't have order beyond all being ownership. Personal attacks like "Your work is purely childish and unhelpful to the article." are positioned next to "Please clear this with project X first." which violates the third pillar, so there is no section to hat-note in a meaningful manner just yet. That's what I'm thinking. Penyulap ☏ 03:30, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure third pillar and personal attacks can be grouped, but there would be others no doubt. Every comment that is wrong has reasons why it is wrong, where there is more than one tangent of further study, I feel we can avoid dead-ends. Penyulap ☏ 03:36, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I've put the note at the top of the section that lists all of the examples, and it's good enough for me. Thanks for drawing attention to the issue. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:49, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I think it's said that compromise is "finding a solution nobody likes". I'm more optimistic than that. Certainly it can't be perfect for everyone, but expressing the concept in mandarin would let a billion people understand the concept, and that majority would consider it good.

Hey, I'm not looking for perfect, I'm looking for something that will help guide newbies like I was, to identify the many ways ownership expresses itself. Sure you, and I, and everyone reading the talkpage know what ownership is now, but I feel it's missing some fundamental guidance, and helping it to be just 'good' for a larger number of editors is something I'd like to do, so it's good for you and good for me, or at least the people we were when we started. Penyulap ☏ 08:46, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Everyone should be made to read this policy

Even though this policy dates back to something like 2005 (according to the edit history), it's amazing that I only just learned of its existence today. Although I edit as an IP now, I am an experienced Misplaced Pages editor with some 30,000+ edits and one of the reasons I no longer edit regularly, or under my username, is because the experience I had with so many editors who claimed ownership of an article really soured me on the project. I wish some of the "Wikia" sites also followed this policy. In my opinion every Misplaced Pages editor - especially those who register accounts - should be made to read this. If more people were aware of the policy we might see fewer edit wars and bad blood. Just my 2 cents; as with most things there's always room for improvement, but this policy (now that I know it exists) gets two thumbs up from me. 70.72.215.252 (talk) 21:19, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

+1 Penyulap ☏ 11:57, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)

For consideration

There's a sort of inverse annoyance that's prevalent, which is assigning ownership to others. For example, when someone makes a contribution, then someone else decides that the reference is in an outdated format or the fair use rationale isn't specific enough. First they go through the history to find out who to blame, then they summon up some long-winded template full of links to long-winded policy pages, all because they want you to fix it yourself. Wouldn't it be much simpler and kinder if when someone finds a weakness in Misplaced Pages, they would just address it directly instead of going to all that trouble just to nag someone else? Most of the time, the course of correction is clear and Misplaced Pages can go on improving itself without calling people on the carpet. In the case that more information is needed, wouldn't it be more collegial to ask the question instead of framing the oversight as a violation? --Dystopos (talk) 03:21, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

exactly. But what would we clog the server space with, if not 6 pages of discussion about a particular change by a dozen people who don't want to simply make the change to the one sentence ? Penyulap ☏ 11:58, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)

a few additions

I would like to know if these are spot on, or no good...

1. "You should try making some small edits first"
2. "If bob disagrees with your decision that a given subject is notable, then it's clearly non-notable, isn't it?"
3. "I can see nothing wrong with the article and there is no need to change anything at all."
4. "This edit wasn't discussed first"

Penyulap ☏ 21:54, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)

I think 1 and 4 are spot on! I'm not so sure about 3, because it could just be an honest disagreement, or a misunderstanding of whatever the proposed change is. I guess 2 sort of is ownership, but it may not be a clear example, first because it divides the ownership between two users, and second because I did a sort of double-take wondering who the name referred to . --Tryptofish (talk) 00:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

sweet, you know I think someone missed the cosmic opportunity to revert me on number 4 :)

I'll work on the others, and try to better capture the essence and separate it from the gf comment sort of thing. do you think there are others in the article that we could improve? Penyulap ☏ 01:26, 29 Jun 2012 (UTC)

would it be helpful if I make a separate list, with examples of the multiple editor ownership, so that 2 is a little clearer as an example ? Penyulap ☏ 22:50, 29 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Recent changes

Several significant changes have been made to this policy recently; I've twice reverted them, the second time asking the editor concerned to make a case for them here, but I've again been reverted. I re

I just reverted three good faith edits that made the page less clear to me. I wanted to say the edits were good faith, but no edit summary appeared. Sorry if I did it wrong, but there was no edit summary to explain. It is important for this page to be clear. Best wishes, MathewTownsend (talk) 13:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

But there were edit summaries for each of the three edits you reverted, MT. Perhaps you meant to revert different edits? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't explain myself clearly. I meant there wasn't an edit summary for me. Usually there is an edit summary for me, so that when I revert, I can give my reason - but it just reverted and I couldn't explain: In this case, I preferred the version before the last three edits because it was clear to me and that I realized the new edits were made in good faith. MathewTownsend (talk) 13:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Your edit summaries didn't make much sense, however, Nikki. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:35, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

What specifically confused you about them? The first eliminated the oddity of "articles you have on your watchlist", because a) not all contributors have or use watchlists and b) ownership deals primarily with editing, not simply reading/watching. The second eliminated some of the less relevant essays, because SEEALSO bloat dilutes the value of more relevant links and makes that section unnecessarily long. The third removed a link from See also that is already present in the body of the article, which is proper procedure according to WP:SEEALSO. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that Melodia was referring to edits summaries like "cons sa" and "rm2". You didn't merely eliminate the reference to watchlists ( which seemed fine, to me) but replaced it with a reference to "an article that you maintain", which is a new concept and not one which sits well with the theme of this page. Also, I do not agree that Misplaced Pages:No vested contributors (for example) is "less relevant" here. The relevant sections should be returned to the version prior to your changes until consensus for them is demonstrated. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:00, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should suspect that at all, given that the first summary you cite was not among the edits in question here, and the second is a fairly standard abbreviation for "remove 2". What would you suggest as a replacement for the bit about watchlists? I also tried "an article that you edit", but Melodia quite rightly pointed out that that isn't really correct. In terms of the see alsos, I'm sure that there are a number of potentially relevant essays that might be linked, but such a section quickly becomes bloated, and on a policy it's particularly important to point readers to only the most relevant and supported pages - so WP:Disruptive editing, probably WP:CONLIMITED, but certainly not every potentially related essay out there. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:31, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

<clears throat nervously, me too, got to be nervous here> (I'm commenting because apparently by not commenting further, I'm a diva, according to Nikkimaria's definition of diva.) So you're saying that speaking in code that new editors won't understand is good? MathewTownsend (talk) 02:35, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

No. I'm saying we should avoid the use of "watchlist" in this particular context, because it's not particularly germane to the point and because not everyone uses or can use a watchlist. I'm also saying that having a very extensive see also section might be intimidating or confusing to a newer editor. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:31, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

So, we disagree. And with few others commenting, also with divided opinions, the status quo prior to your edits pertains, until and unless you can make a conving case for them (your 'slippery slope' style straw-man argument not being one). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:42, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Since you agree that removing the reference to watchlists was fine, do you have any suggestions for alternative wordings for that section, or are you okay with Melodia's solution? I'm afraid though that the status quo would be the wording that stood for over a month prior to your recent edits. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:36, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

I did not agree with its removal; I meant that the reference was fine (I'll amend my post, above). There is no time limit on challenging disputed changes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Realistically there has to be some kind of limit, even if not set in stone – if I reverted an edit you made weeks, months or even years ago citing WP:BRD, you'd quite rightfully object. Can you explain why you support the "watchlist" bit? To me it doesn't seem relevant to the point being made there, and excludes some editors who may still display "ownership". Nikkimaria (talk) 22:14, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

When one editor writes the article

I think this is a particular problem because an editor who has written all or most of the article often seems to feel ownership especially if it has FA. They often talk about "my work", "articles I wrote", guard their watchlist, and act in every way that it belongs to them. There is an article somewhere about "diva" editors. If wp is really interested in retaining new editors, I think this attitude needs to change.

Editors with "ownership" issues typically do not edit collaboratively with the community but write the article themselves, perhaps with a few "trusted" friends. Perhaps wp needs to decide whether they are apart from WMF goals or not. Perhaps wp should be split into the existing encyclopedia, and a special "literary magazine" for FAs (whose editors choose to be in it - e.g. "diva" editors could put their articles there) with different rules. Since FAs usually have low number of page views, perhaps this could be achieved without harming the encyclopedia. MathewTownsend (talk) 14:18, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Unredacted, as responses don't make sense responding to nothing. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:45, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

WP is interested in acquiring new editors, but is also concerned with retaining the editors we already have. I'm sure your post here is in good faith, but your attitude seems contrary to the latter goal. Splitting FAs into a separate site (and, based on your comment, not retaining them here - please clarify if this is not the case) would most certainly be harmful. What kind of generalist encyclopedia does not have an article on lettuce, for example? On the numerous heads of states (including about a dozen US presidents) whose articles are FAs? Anyone is welcome to copy articles elsewhere for any reason, of course, but this approach seems wrong-headed, and perhaps disregards human nature. The page you refer to, WP:DIVA, concerns editors who retire or threaten to retire when things don't go their way; the types of people you actually discuss, though, are those who exhibit pride in the work they contribute to our community and our project - and that pride is not limited to FA writers. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

WP isn't seriously interested in retaining editors at all, just empty words. Malleus Fatuorum 22:11, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

WP isn't a sentient entity (yet :P ).

There are obviously different perspectives on all the meta:Conflicting Misplaced Pages philosophies, and many of us are going slowly insane, whilst trying to mediate and translate and interpret and clarify the different perspectives, and their contextual validity in realworld situations. Ie. trying to point out the "idealism vs practicality" problems in many circumstances, to the people with extreme-stances who refuse to acknowledge the validity of the bloody large spectrum of subjectivity. (Plus all the miscommunications that arise from different languages/cultures/ages/assumptions/motivations/etc).

WP:RETENTION is a gathering-area, that is warmly appreciative of new ideas and methods to aid in preventing problems that lead to unnecessary stress. They're after ways to keep newcomers editing, and to keep oldtimers from retiring/fading. Grease the wheels, sand the splinters, smooth the way. It's definitely not a simple or completable task, but we're used to that, right? :) —Quiddity (talk) 23:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I have fully supported Lettuce and supported its appearance as TFA. I just passed Cabbage as GA by the same editor. But that editor Dana boomer doesn't have ownership problems and always responds positively to any suggestions and is willing to consider them. This is in contrast to editors who watchlist their articles and instantly revert any changes without an open mind as to its constructiveness. So there is a difference in the way editors respond. Many, like Dana boomer are open to suggestions and are not defensive, while others are instantly defensive and close minded. The close minded attitude doesn't encourage new editors or contribute to editor retention. It seems to indicae ownership issues. IMO; this should not be encouraged. Overly watchlisting seems to contribute to this bad practice, IMO. MathewTownsend (talk) 03:39, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

According to this you've invested the effort to write exactly zero FAs. I think that perhaps when you've demonstrated a little more commitment to quality content than you have so far then your opinion may carry a little more weight. Malleus Fatuorum 04:04, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Sure, there's a difference in the way editors respond, but your original post doesn't exactly seem to be acknowledging that. To perhaps make this a bit clearer: on your userpage, you mention "my dyk", "my barnstars", "articles I started". Does this make you "apart from WMF goals"? No – it's perfectly appropriate for you to take some level of (dare I say it) ownership of what you've done here. There's a very big difference between that, which actually helps user retention, and the behaviour I think we are trying to discourage with this page. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:15, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

The idea that FAs have rather few page views therefore they don't matter also needs to be challenged. For instance, Manchester United F.C. had more that 680,000 page views last month, and Moors murders had almost half a million. Anyone who seriously believes that a credible Misplaced Pages would be better of without either of those articles, or that the maintenance of their quality ought not to be a priority, needs to have their bumps felt. Malleus Fatuorum 04:22, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

To choose just one of MatthewTownsend's articles at random, Peter Askin had only 165 views last month; even Gropecunt Lane managed to put that in the shade with more than 10,000 views, as did Tickle Cock Bridge a mere GA that still had almost ten times the page views of Peter Askin. Malleus Fatuorum 04:36, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, in fairness to MathewTownsend he was the co-writer of today's featured article, which is probably getting tons of views today. Mark Arsten (talk) 06:19, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

And writing FAs isn't the sole mark of a useful editor. Everyone contributes where they want to, whether gnoming or mediating or cleanup or helpdesks or refhunting or coding or etc Etc etc. Some breadth, some depth, some both. —Quiddity (talk) 09:59, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, off topic, but I have a lot of respect for the people who spend hours each day reverting vandalism. Always nice to see those guys on my watchlist. 14:13, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

But which got only 969 views last month. Nobody has claimed that writing FAs is the sole mark of anything, but the attitude on display here is that it's nothing. Malleus Fatuorum 14:19, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Gee, Malleus Fatuorum, that's kind of a low blow, putting down my tiny article. Is this because I expressed my opinion above? (And I do have a FA.) Just because I spend my time copy editing other people's articles (many of which do get to FA) and doing GA reviews (many of which also do get to FA), is that not important enough for me to be allowed to express my opinion? Considering Peter Askin is only two sentences long, doesn't have the word "cunt" in it, has never been advertised on the main page, GA, or FA, and has no name recognition, that a pretty good number of views, don't you think? I know you're proud of Gropecunt Lane, but any article with "cunt" in it is going to get lots of hits. Likewise for famous murder articles. It's just that having reviewed over 180 GAs recently, I have my own impression of how different editors respond and how they use their watchlists (or perhaps they patrol recent changes, I don't know). But I'll withdraw my comment if it offends you. Really, I'm very sorry to have upset you. MathewTownsend (talk) 15:18, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Why did you change Tickle Cock Bridge to "::::::::" Matthew? And if you took the trouble to look you'd see that I've done more than 500 GA reviews, so I've likely got a better idea of what I'm talking about than you have. Malleus Fatuorum 15:31, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

And looking at "your" FA I see that you in fact contributed almost nothing to it except for a few copyedits, so perhaps that goes at least some way to explaining why you can't understand the issue that's being discussed here; you've never written anything worth spit, so of course you have nothing to feel protective of. Malleus Fatuorum 15:46, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Guys, please, let's not get into a dick measuring contest here. This page is meant to discuss improvements to our Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles policy. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:00, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Therefore it would have been a good idea not to begin this section with a blanket condemnation of all FA writers as "divas". Malleus Fatuorum 16:05, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

ok, I've redacted my comment. I realize that I'm not welcomed here, and that Malleus Fatuorum is important. I'm sorry I expressed my opinion. I've only been editing less than a year and don't know how things are done. I thought I was posting in the same vein that others do. I know that only long time editors are respected and that my contributions to the encyclopedia are minimal. I've reduced my editing considerably lately, due to my perception of the atmosphere, and I guess this is a sign that I should reduce it more. Sorry for the offense I've given. I understand my editing is not welcomed. I know I upset Nikkimaria because I removed a link to Simple Misplaced Pages, because I didn't know those links always exist. Nikkimaria chastized me for this mistake. Please, both Malleus Fatuorum and NIkkimaria, accept my apologies for my offenses. MathewTownsend (talk) 16:31, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

and sorry for whatever I did to Tickle Cock Bridge, as I know Malleus Fatuorum is proud of that article. MathewTownsend (talk) 16:33, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

And still you persist with your misunderstandings. I'm no more proud of Tickle Cock bridge than I am of anything else. What I was objecting to was your Puritanical replacement with "::::::::". Malleus Fatuorum 16:54, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Mathew, I wasn't upset by your removal of the interwiki, and the issue is not that your editing is not welcome. You just seem to be becoming a bit agitated here, and are thus perhaps not expressing yourself as clearly as you might normally do. I'm sure, given your reaction, you can empathize with the defensiveness someone might feel at having the value of their work questioned or having it suggested that they are unwelcome on Misplaced Pages. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:50, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I made a couple of mistakes. I accidentally screwed up Malleus Fatuorum's Tickle Cock Bridge. I didn't mean to do it. It wasn't a Puritanical replacement with "::::::::" as Malleus Fatuorum assumes. But I see that I'm not welcomed here. Editors such as Malleus Fatuorum see fit to make unfavorable assumptions about me personally and what he presumes are my views. Yes I'm agitated and I don't like to be belittled when I've tried to be a good editor here. I've been chastised twice for two innocent mistakes. (I was trying to copy Tickle Cock Bridge bridge for my comment in response to Malleus Fatorum's belittling of my efforts here on wikipedia. I've worked very hard here. This is not a friendly place. I don't feel free to make anymore comments on this page. I'm not one of those allowed to have an opinion here. I certainly didn't expect to be personally attacked because of a comment about Ownership. Kinda seems like this page has Ownership problems. I'm not allowed to have an opinion and my words are twisted and interpreted in the worst possible way. I've seen plenty of discussions about "divas" and I hadn't know it was a forbidden term here. Again, I'm sorry. MathewTownsend (talk) 21:20, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Mathew, I really don't want to further upset you, but...you're kinda acting like a diva here. Perhaps it would be beneficial to step away from your keyboard for a bit and come back to this discussion with an open mind? After all, you opened this section with a strident proposal, and it's certainly not unthinkable that people might have strong opinions, even criticism, of such a proposal. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:25, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

So it's ok for them to have strong opinions but not me? In what way am i a diva? ("A Misplaced Pages diva is a long-time user who believes he or she is more important than other editors, and who requires regular validation of that belief.") Is that what I'm doing? Who's the diva here? If others hadn't gotten so upset over my comment and felt the need to ridicule me, attack me personally as a puritan because of a ridiculous mistake I made in trying to link to Malleus Fatuorum's article Tickle Cock Bridge, this wouldn't have happened. If other, superior editors can attack me personally and belittle my contributions, then how am I the diva? I belittled and attacked no one personally. I made a general comment. I was then personally belittled and attacked, with examples of my editing put up for ridicule. Malleus Faturorum points out my pathetic article Peter Askin and says I didn't deserve the FA I received. He says: "According to this you've invested the effort to write exactly zero FAs. I think that perhaps when you've demonstrated a little more commitment to quality content than you have so far then your opinion may carry a little more weight." ok, I get the message. MathewTownsend (talk) 21:50, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Mathew, I'm not saying you can't have strong opinions, you just need to consider other peoples' perspectives and keep in mind that commentary such as that with which you began the section is likely to elicit passionate (and critical) response. You are upset because you feel people are ridiculing you, and that's understandable – but other people might feel upset because of what you said about them, and you need to be aware of that. You say that you "belittled and attacked no one personally", but while you might not have done so by name, your opening remarks attacked a whole class of editors. As to the diva issue, consider the comments that immediately preceded my remark: "I see that I'm not welcomed here...I don't feel free to make anymore comments on this page. I'm not one of those allowed to have an opinion here...I'm not allowed to have an opinion". You might not have intended it that way, but this reads as a search for validation, and the exact kind of "storming off in a huff" that DIVA warns against. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:32, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, please stop attacking people and thus derail the discussion. MathewTownsend has all rights to express his frustration, which serve as an example of problems at hand. He does not threat to "punish" wikipedia by leaving the project. He works hard despite obstacles he feels. His opening remark (if it is the one which starts with Editors with "ownership"...) correctly expresses worries about "a whole class of editors". If someone is offended by his remark then,.... well... "pants on fire". Staszek Lem (talk) 22:56, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Staszek, as I just said, he has every right to his opinions. What he does not have the right to do is attack others while complaining of being attacked himself. What he is doing is not conducive to a productive policy discussion. (You may need to check your understanding of the idiom "pants on fire", as you do not appear to be using it correctly.) Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Nikki, my point is these people themselve seem to be very prolific in badgering each other and your intervention (and mine; my mistake) does not quench the fire. Therefore I've been sugesting to abandon this thread, since it is useless for the policy. Just leave it for those who are not done with venting their frustrations and move on. For example, why don't you comment on my two new sections below? Or bickering is more fun than working on the improvement of the policy? Staszek Lem (talk) 17:14, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

That's a question you ought to be addressing to MathewTownsend, whose hypocritical and insulting comments started this mess. Malleus Fatuorum 17:40, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Matthew, all said, what is your particular suggestion again, to improve this policy? If none, then I suggest to close this thread deteriorated into bickering. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

His suggestion is quite visible at the start of this section. Basically it's OK for him to list "his" articles on his user page, but not for anyone else to list "their" articles anywhere. And all FA writers who've ever tried to defend an article they've been involved with from turning into the usual Misplaced Pages grey goo should be exiled with their articles to some new site. Which will be no loss to Misplaced Pages as FAs get very few page views anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 23:13, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, you are not helpful. The question was not to restart bickering, but to contribute to the quality of the policy. Once again, if there is nothing to say towards the quality of the policy, I strongly suggest to shut this section down. Are there any WPBOLD admins around? Staszek Lem (talk) 23:20, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

And your contribution was helpful? Get real. Malleus Fatuorum 23:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

re: "helpful?": Maybe not yet, but... See Tryptofish below (especially his emphasis). How many people must repeat that for you to get the message? Also, I have made a specific suggestion (below) directly relevant to part of the edit war at hand. Please discuss it. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:59, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

There is no amount of people that will shut me up in the face of hypocrisy, dishonesty and nonsense. Just doesn't happen. Malleus Fatuorum 00:10, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

OK. By powers vested unto me by me hereby and henceforth I declare you official owner of this thread. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:17, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

What powers might they be asshole? Malleus Fatuorum 00:30, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

I've removed all references to "my" on (my) userpage. MathewTownsend (talk) 14:06, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Section break

(Clears throat nervously...) Anyway, I think that the way this page discusses featured articles is alright as written. But if anyone feels that it needs to be revised, let's do please discuss that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:34, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I'll wade in. I think it should stay as written. Here's the deal: I write almost exclusively alone so I'm not sure where that puts me in regards to the comment posted at the top of the thread. I've worked on pages with high page views and pages with low page views; pages that I've rewritten entirely and others that I took from a one sentence stub to FA level. Some pages I take to be reviewed although given the animosity against FAs and FA writers I do so less these days. I think that does a disservice to our readers, because I think the little gold star is for them, not for the person who got it on the page. Generally I keep the pages on my watch and this is the reason: I buy books, go to the library, travel to university libraries, get myself behind paywalls to find sources. Then I read - a lot. Once all that's done I work on the page and make many many edits. Sometimes over a thousand. So if later someone throws a "fact" in a highly viewed page I've worked one (note I use the singular personal pronoun) that I know is rubbish or just plain wrong, because I've spent and hours of research, why shouldn't it be reverted? Apparently this is no longer allowed - hence I don't bother to bring pages beyond a certain point completion. But I do think the writers and researchers who spend a great deal of time bringing a page to FA level know the material and thus should be the steward for the page as long as they're still active editors. Just my opinion of course. Truthkeeper (talk) 01:18, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Just to add: this obviously does not preclude additions of well-researched and well-written material. Furthermore, if the article is changed in a manner that's substantively different, or new research brought forward, expansions suggested, etc., then of course that's fine. Often, however, talkpage discussions are necessary to discuss issues of weight, etc., in terms of new additions. But these are all part of the normal editing cycle. Truthkeeper (talk) 01:30, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

And that normal editing cycle doesn't need - indeed, precludes as a matter of policy - stewardship by one editor. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:58, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

"Apparently this is no longer allowed" that's bullshit, and if you don't know that, you should. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:58, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Vertical and horizontal editing

Some of this discussion has spilled over to user talk pages. One comment in particular I thought was an excellent one, made by Choess over on SlimVirgin's talk page. The diff is here, and it is well worth reading, especially the second paragraph (which should be quoted here, but I'm going to ask Choess first) where the tensions between 'vertical' and 'horizontal' editing are described with great clarity. The full thread at the time of Choess's comment is here. Carcharoth (talk) 21:48, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Protection

I've just fully protected this page for three days because of the slow-moving edit war that's been ongoing for several days. Please discuss here, and feel free to let me know if it should be unprotected sooner. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:38, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The discussion is already taking place, above (at #Recent changes). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

And now I wish I had fully protected this page too. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:51, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Me too. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

"See also" section

I would suggest to cplit it into two subsections: "Policies & guidelines" and "Essays". While essays are instructive and fun to read, when I go to a policy page, I want to look into policies in the first place and I want to know what to click without wasting my spare time (which I would rater spend on editing). Especially, I have to agree with Nikkimaria, sometimes this "See also" section gets bloated. Is there a place to "metadiscuss" the style of policy/guideline pages? Staszek Lem (talk) 23:10, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Diva?

re: common response by an editor confronted with ownership behavior is to threaten to leave the project. -- sounds like WP:DIVA to me. Shouldn't the phrase be wikilinked there? Staszek Lem (talk) 00:11, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

No, that bit should probably just be removed entirely. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:11, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

On the second thought I agree; "common response"? Any stats for such bold claim? Also, the subsequent advise smacks attack, inappropriate for a policy. Besides, "diva syndrom" is not specific to "article owners". Staszek Lem (talk) 00:03, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

"User pages" section

IMO "User pages" section is misplaced. First, they are not articles. Second, there is a whole separate policy, WP:USER, and in fact this section here is a fork of the latter one, which should be discouraged for several well-known reasons. Instead, I suggest to replace it with the following item in "See also":

• For the issues of ownership of user pages, see Misplaced Pages:User pages#Ownership and editing of user pages.

Comments, please. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:22, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps mention it in the "overview" instead? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:57, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

At odds with WMF policy

Ik think I understand the purpose of this page pretty well, and as far as I understand it, I don't disagree with it. However, the tone seems based mostly on anti-elitist sentiments. It is not surprising to see this page used so often by groups wanting to establish ownership over pages that were built by single editors.

A phrase like "All Misplaced Pages content is edited collaboratively." is weird; there is lots of content for which this not true at all. The sentences "Some contributors feel possessive about material they have contributed to Misplaced Pages. A few editors will even defend such material against others." are at odds with WMF policy. The Terms of Use make it clear that there is not only nothing strange about an editor caring about the material he has contributed, and not only is it normal, but it is legally required (everybody is legally responsible for his own contributions). And this is in fact nothing new, after all who wants to read an encyclopedia that has just been thrown together by uncaring passers-by. Such value as Misplaced Pages has lies in material contributed by editors who cared strongly about what they were doing and who put in the effort to get it right. Caring about one's contributions can have different causes and can have different effects on Misplaced Pages (just like other phenomena, like, say, collaboration which can be beneficial as well as quite lethal). There is a huge difference between somebody who pushes a PoV and fights off anybody who wants to turn a page in a more policy-compliant direction and an editor who painstakingly puts together a high-quality page and is unhappy about users wanting to see their PoV represented and inserted. There are all kinds of situations where it is highly desirable that a user keeps up the quality of a page over time, updating it and weeding out inserted junk, as long as he keeps an open mind. As it is, this page does not address this variety at all. Nor does it puts things in perspective; the overall WMF vision aims to achieve the best content possible and this page should reflect that; the behaviour of a user cannot be evaluated apart from how it fits in other policies (especially the core content policies). As it is, this page breathes the philosophy "hey, here is a user who knows something about what he writes about, take him out back and shoot him", which is so common in Misplaced Pages (again not compliant with WMF policies; the WMF quite likes editors who can put together high-quality content, and are willing to do so). I see I am not the first who made this point, nor am I likely to be the last. A copyright owner (talk) 13:51, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Like most any perfect law, WP:OWN can be gamed both ways. It can and is used in cases such as you mention: a group of subpar bullies wants to get rid of a strong editor, which may be the original contributor, or someone who took responsibility later and greatly improves and maintains the article, and who keeps the article clean from the POV and/or other unacceptable things which the bully group wants to insert. That deliberate abuse of the WP:OWN policy happens all the time.

Then there's also the other case: A strongly biased editor digs in at an article or array of articles, makes friends with well-established likeminded editors and admins, then uses WP:OWN to thwart any attempt at getting him and that POV (and/or other silly things he likes) out of the article in question. That also happens all the time.

Without binding content arbitration, problems like this cannot and will never be resolved. Therefore, any attempts to establish any form of content committee is immediately shouted down by those who favor the status quo. Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Don't contribute, don't donate, read only with great care. --78.35.248.247 (talk) 14:26, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press