Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:47, 3 May 2006

Welcome!

Hi Tortfeasor, and a warm welcome to Misplaced Pages! I hope you have enjoyed editing as much as I did so far and decide to stay. Unfamiliar with the features and workings of Misplaced Pages? Don't fret! Be Bold! Here's some good links for your reference and that'll get you started in no time!

Editing tutorial, learn to have fun with Misplaced Pages. Picture tutorial, instructions on uploading images. How to write a great article, to make it an featured article status. Manual of Style, how articles should be written.

Most Wikipedians would prefer to just work on articles of their own interest. But if you have some free time to spare, here are some open tasks that you may want to help out :

RC Patrol - Keeping a lookout for vandalism. Cleanup - Help make unreadable articles readable. Requests - Wanted on WP, but hasn't been created. Merge - Combining duplicate articles into one. Wikiprojects - So many to join, so many to choose from...Take your pick!

Oh yes, don't forget to sign when you write on talk pages, simply type four tildes, like this: ~~~~. This will automatically add your name and the time after your comments. And finally, if you have any questions or doubts, don't hesitate to contact me on my talk page. Once again, welcome! ^_^ --み使い Mitsukai 06:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Using inline quotes:

There are a number of ways to do this.

For example, typing in the article while editing will get you name of reference. If you don't know the name of the article, or it's not relevant, simply typing will get you , where the number is related to the unnamed verification citations.

As for the POV, I took that based on repeated checking of the IP addresses, and the responses of other editors, as well as the un"informed" (i.e., no edit summary) edits of most of the ones you did. By using the edit summary and citations, it should substantiate your statements a lot more. And don't forget to type--~~~~ on the talk pages, so that way people will know who to talk to.

Hope this helps and again, welcome to the Wiki! ^_^--み使い Mitsukai 07:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Concerns

Apologies on that, I had actually went to bed for the night (it was 2 am here, and it had been a long day). Misplaced Pages is a global medium, and I don't know where you're typing from, so that doesn't mean that it's an instant response. I myself have waited days for a response to conversations with other editors. It doesn't mean that they're ignoring you, it just means they work on a different schedule.

Anyways, on to your concerns.

While in many cases keeping an NPOV in an article is presenting a balanced viewpoint, in many "controversial" cases, as with history and whatnot, a seperate section or even an entirely different article may be called for. You may wish to create a section within the article entitled controversy, or even (in the case of kokkok), work on the article there to explain what are other discussions ongoing between kokkok vs. magatama beliefs. And if you have been putting in the in-line references, then there should be discussions between you and the other editors on the talk pages or user pages regarding that. You may also want a neutral party to come in an take a look at things for a different opinion.

In regards to deletion as a means of suppressing information, that may be another editor's way of trying to keep POV (unfortunately, despite the rules, not everyone's playing with the same rulebook). My advice there is to restore what you can and if you've got citations to back it up with, there shouldn't be a problem. Then look at the article history, and if its continually being edited by someone with an IP address, you can either ask them to get an account here (so they can back up their information) or stop vandalizing the article. As you told me yourself, they may not be here to vandalize the article and may just be here to present a NPOV. There's got to be a happy medium somewhere.

As for citations of magatama, there are some missing as well there, and that needs to be corrected, so I'm going to look into that over the course of the next few days and see what I can do to correct it. IRT the Yayoi period, you may be correct in that as well, I'm going to have to do some research as well on that and see what the other editors are up to.

I hope this information helps.--み使い Mitsukai 17:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

hello

welcome. it may seem like there are a lot of rules to know, but as long as you've digested WP:NPOV, WP:V, & WP:NOR, you are encouraged to WP:Be Bold, & learn as you go along.

these are some of the tools i find helpful for korea-related topics:

• Category, List, Notice board, Manual of Style, Naming conventions,
• 위키백과 Lib of Congress Met Museum, Daum, Naver, 야후

as far as kokkok, if you register an email address, i can send you the britannica & encarta articles for reference, if you'd like. also note that wikipedia uses Revised romanization of Korean, so kokkok needs to be renamed eventually, i'm not sure to what, maybe Gok-ok? you can probably ask User:Wikipeditor.

images are sort of a pain, "fair use" is less preferred than liberally licensed images, which are hard to come by. you'll have to read a bit, beginning with the welcome package of links above, but eventually you'll get to , where the "licensing" drop-down list summarizes your options. Appleby 08:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

i have the full britannica and encarta installed, i can send you the articles, but i'm not sure it's kosher, copyright-wise, to post entire articles on wikipedia, even user pages, since it'd be "publishing." set up an email, & i'll send you what i can find. briefly, it looks like britannica has a good article, encarta just smattering of mentions. Appleby 05:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

oops, thanks for catching that. i was just guessing from an unlabeled photo. please feel free to move it to Silla, or just delete it. i just linked it cuz those types of pics with free licenses are so hard to find, but it's not a very good pic per se. Appleby 06:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Magatama

Hi, read your comments on the talk page; however, it's going to take me a day or two to get back to you as I'm swamped both in Wiki and real life. Rest assured, however, I will get back to you. Thanks again for your interest and insight.--み使い Mitsukai 06:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Reln275/Jap-Kor-art.htmhttp://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Reln275/Jap-Kor-art.htm

http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Reln275/Jap-Kor-art.htm

new Portal:Korea

User:Visviva has worked hard to create a brand new Portal:Korea. Please take a look & contribute if you can. I think the new Template:Korea-related topics has the potential to be a more useful reference tool than categories or lists, if editors continue to expand and update it. It's also a good reminder for help & requests on ye olde notice board. Hopefully, this will help revive some activity all around. Appleby 22:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Korean Edit Problem

Please let me question about "Ruling class".

Definition of "Ruling Class (Old Ver)" before Korean Edit.　

Many of clans and local chieftains consisting Yamato polity claimed its taproot to imperial family or other tribal Gods(Kami). The archeological evidence of such clans is found in inscription of the ancient iron sword discovered in Inariyama Kofun of Saitama, on which the bearer recorded the names of his ancestors to claim its origin to Ōbiko(大彦) who was recorded in Nihongi as a son of Emperor Kōgen. On the other hand, there are also considerable number of clans having origins in Korea or China. According to Nihongi, the oldest record of Korean imigrant is Amenohiboko(天日槍), a legendary prince of Silla who settled to Japan at the era of Emperor Suinin, perhaps around 3rd or 4th century. Ironically, Amenohiboko is described in Nihongi as a maternal ancestor of Empress Jingū whose controversial legend says that she conquered Silla.

Among many Korean imigrants settled continuously from 4th century, some oldcomers seem to set their origins to imperial family or some major clans. Soga no Machi(蘇我満智), the ancestor of Soga clan, is believed by some scholars to be equivalent of Baekje noble Moku Manchi(木満致). Korean imigrants even include their royal family. King_Muryeong_of_Baekje was born in Japan in 462, and left a son settled there. The naturalized prince established Wa clan(和氏). This clan's women Takano Niigasa became the second wife of Emperor Kōnin and gave birth to Emperor Kammu in 737.

At 5th century, Kazuraki clan(葛城氏), descending from the legendary grandson of Emperor Kogen, was the most prominent power in the court and intermarried with imperial family. After Kazuraki faded in late 5th century, Otomo clan(大伴氏) temporarily took its place. When Emperor Buretsu died with no apparent heir, it was Otomo no Kanamura who recommended Emperor Keitai, a very distant imperial relative resided in Koshi district(current Fukui Prefecture), to be a new monarch. However, Kanamura was fired due to failures on diplomatic pilicies, and the court was eventually controlled by Mononobe clan (物部氏) and Soga clan(蘇我氏) at the beginning of Asuka Period.

This article has been deleted by the Korean. And, Koreans divided the article of "Torai-Jin" and created the article of "Rulling Class".

Definition of "Ruling Class (Korean Ver)" before Korean Edit.　

Many important figures in Emperor Ojin's reign were immigrants from the mainland. These immigrants received noble titles from the rulers of the Yamato, and were valued as experts, especially on iron-working, horseriding and writing.

According to the record of Shinsen-shōjiroku (新撰姓氏録), an aristocratic list of names that Yamato Imperial Court officially compiled in 815, one-third of the noble families on the list had their origins in China or Korea: 163 of the 1182 listed were from China, 154 from different parts of Korea (104 form Baekje, 41 from Goguryeo, 9 from Silla). .

An example of a typical descendant clan is the Yamatonoaya clan (東漢氏), which is descended from Emperor Ling of Han. This clan's leader was Achi-no-Omi (阿智使主). He introduced Chinese culture to Japan. According to the Nihongi, during Emperor Kimmei's reign the Hata clan (秦氏), descendants of Qin Shi Huang, introduced sericulture. The Kawachino-Fumi clan (西文氏), descendants of Gaozu of Han, introduced Chinese writing to the Yamato court. (Source By Shinsen-shōjiroku) .

In Emperor Kimmei's reign, according to the Nihongi, a Korean was in charge of taxes levied on shipments. The introduction of Chinese writing to Yamato was one Baekje's most important gifts to the court.

Korean influence on Japanese laws is also attributed to the fact that Korean immigrants were on committees that drew up law codes. There were Chinese immigrants who were also in integral part in crafting Japan's first laws. Eight of the 19 members of the committee drafting the Taiho Code were from Korean immigrant families while none were from China proper. Furthermore, idea of local administrative districts and the tribute tax are based on Korean models.

1.　Emperor Oujin is assumed to be one of Five kings of Wa. He is a person of the fifth century. Emperor Kimmei is a person of the ninth century.

The Korean is losing sight of the classification of the history to emphasize "Influence of Korea".

2.　Sentences that do not exist in history Record of Japan is being written for a fact by the Korean.

"according to the Nihongi, a Korean was in charge of taxes levied on shipments. The introduction of Chinese writing to Yamato was one Baekje's most important gifts to the court."

according to the Nihongi...

It is not Kinmei emperor's age that the Chinese character was introduced to Japan. It is Oujin emperor's age.

十五年秋八月壬戌朔丁卯　百濟王遣阿直岐　阿直岐亦能讀經典　即太子菟道稚郎子師焉　於是天皇問阿直岐曰、「如勝汝博士亦有耶。」對曰、「有王仁者、是秀也。」十六年春二月　王仁來之　則太子菟道稚郎子師之　習諸典籍於王仁　莫不通達

according to the Nihongi... "Chinese teacher of Crown Prince was invited from Baekje. " And, "most important gifts to the court."　This description is not in Nihoshoki.

"a Korean was in charge of taxes levied on shipments."　This article was not found. Please teach the Korean's name.

3 Insistence that contradicts history record.

"Korean influence on Japanese laws is also attributed to the fact that Korean immigrants were on committees that drew up law codes. "

according to The Shoku Nihongi in June 16, 700 (4th year of Mommu)

勅淨大參刑部親王。直廣壹藤原朝臣不比等。直大貳粟田朝臣眞人。直廣參下毛野朝臣古麻呂。直廣肆伊岐連博得。直廣肆伊余部連馬養。勤大壹薩弘恪。勤廣參土部宿祢甥。勤大肆坂合部宿祢唐。務大壹白猪史骨。追大壹黄文連備。田邊史百枝。道君首名。狹井宿祢尺麻呂。追大壹鍜造大角。進大壹額田部連林。進大貳田邊史首名。山口伊美伎大麻呂。直廣肆調伊美伎老人等。撰定律令。賜祿各有差。

There is no Korean in this.

The member of the committee doesn't have the Korean.

4　Description mistaken in order to emphasize "South Korean distinguished services"

In general, China enacted the system of Rituryo.

Generally, it is explained that Taiho Rituryo customized Rituryo of Tang Dynasty. South Korea also copied the Ritsrei system of Tang Dynasty. Therefore, Rituryou of South Korea and Japan is common.

Rituryou of Korea was made in the age of Kim-ChunChu(金春秋).　It was the same age as the prototype "飛鳥浄御原令 (Auka-kiyomigahara-rei)" of Rituryou.

My proposal

1　"Rulling Class(Korean Version)" is deleted from Asuka period, Yamato period, and Kofun period.

2　"Rulling Class(Old Version)" is revived to Yamato period and Kofun period.

Reason

Old Version is based on the record of the history of Japan. And, an important episode has been concisely brought together.

To insist on "Influence of South Korea on Japan", the Korea version contains a lot of descriptions that contradict the history record. And, information on true Rulling Class has been deleted by the episode of decorated Korea.

I am waiting for your answer.

PS. I do not deny the source of westeners. The source of westeners customized by the South Korean is denied.　--Kamosuke 18:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello

1) First, do you think this conversation would be more constructive if Eirikr facilitated it in a language that you are more comfortable in?

Yes. I welcome his mediation.

2) Secondly, I don't think there are a problem with the sources cited in the article unless you can explain to me how they are bad.

Simply, Korean customize sources. The article that the Korean customized is not corresponding to the history record.

The Korean prohibits translating the history article on China into English. And, the Korean prohibits translating Misplaced Pages of Japan. They never explain the reason.

First, please define Koreans' POV. Koreans'rule is often changed without consent.

2.1) On the other hand, you are insisting that western sources are "customized" to the South Korean point of view. Please explain how that is so.

Simply, you must look at the link. Korean doesn't accurately write the article on the link.

2.2) Let me reiterate, we won't be going anywhere if you insist on your own subjective interpretation of the sources instead of citing credible, English analysis of the ancient sources.

First of all, please translate the record of the history of China into English.

I can not understand the reason why the South Korean rejects the translation of an original source. (It is easy Chinese. )

3) I agree that the organization could be better and I think both versions of "Ruling Class" can fit better.

4) Right now your complaints seem to be organizational complaints (and I agree they can be made to flow better) and citation complaints (of which I think you have the burden to provide credible, English citations because I already have done so). If you can agree those are the problems and I am not misunderstanding you, I am happy to help work towards a consensus.

I regret that the quality of the history article on Japan has been lowered by the Korean.

5) Let me know what you think.

I respect the editor who has knowledge concerning a Japanese history. (Mahal Aly has marvelous knowledge. I respect him. )

However, the editor who doesn't have the knowledge of Japan, He participates in the article to advertise Korea. He deletes an important part of the history article on Japan, and introduces Korea exaggeratedly.

After it agrees with Mr. Eirikr, I want to edit it.

I know a lot of Koreans are good editors. However, some Koreans users' edit attitudes are not respectable. --Kamosuke 23:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Tortfeasor 18:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)