| Revision as of 14:38, 29 September 2012 editIan.thomson (talk | contribs)58,562 edits →If this was another article, some behavior here would not be accepted: I agree that everyone else has been reasonable, and I thank them for it.← Previous edit | Revision as of 18:38, 29 September 2012 edit undoHumanpublic (talk | contribs)343 edits →If this was another article, some behavior here would not be acceptedNext edit → | ||
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| :Right, but this is not "another article" - some standards may be different here. And what HiLo has said is nowhere as bad as our old friend Lung salad has said in the past and Nittoditto has repeated now. But I would note that both Wdford (who opposes the bible) and Stephan Schulz (who is perhaps the middle ground) have been totally logical on the issues. And the discussion with Martijn Meijering may just be converging now. So all is not lost, and logic may yet prevail. I would shrug off HiLo's comments so we will not have to waste 3 days on WP:ANI - but you are right that he should ease off. What I did learn here that was fascinating was the ] diagnosis of Nittodito - I had never heard of that, but it does explain a lot about expert dismissal. So I guess Misplaced Pages is educational in the end. ] (]) 14:34, 29 September 2012 (UTC) | :Right, but this is not "another article" - some standards may be different here. And what HiLo has said is nowhere as bad as our old friend Lung salad has said in the past and Nittoditto has repeated now. But I would note that both Wdford (who opposes the bible) and Stephan Schulz (who is perhaps the middle ground) have been totally logical on the issues. And the discussion with Martijn Meijering may just be converging now. So all is not lost, and logic may yet prevail. I would shrug off HiLo's comments so we will not have to waste 3 days on WP:ANI - but you are right that he should ease off. What I did learn here that was fascinating was the ] diagnosis of Nittodito - I had never heard of that, but it does explain a lot about expert dismissal. So I guess Misplaced Pages is educational in the end. ] (]) 14:34, 29 September 2012 (UTC) | ||
| ::I agree that everyone else has been reasonable, and I thank them for it. I've mentioned whose behavior I found unacceptable. ] (]) 14:38, 29 September 2012 (UTC) | ::I agree that everyone else has been reasonable, and I thank them for it. I've mentioned whose behavior I found unacceptable. ] (]) 14:38, 29 September 2012 (UTC) | ||
| Evolution is treated as fact in more peer-reviewed science journals than you can shake a stick at. As far as I can tell, the existence of Jesus is not treated as fact by any peer-reviewed journal of history at all. It certainly isn't common. The sources here are popular books, and most of them are Christian publishing houses. Bart Ehrman's training is in divinity and Bible colleges, and he is not a professor of history. ] (]) 18:38, 29 September 2012 (UTC) | |||
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 view · edit Frequently asked questions
Q1: What should this article be named?
A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname.
Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates?
A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format.
Q3: Did Jesus exist?
A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.
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Wife from new papyrus
According to this this, Jesus may have had a wife. I know there have been allegation before, but this seems firmer. Now I'm not saying to mention as gospel (no pun intended) fact that he had a wife, but to work in somewhere about scholarly suggestions that he could have. Lihaas (talk) 22:34, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- Not a new idea. As of over 100 years ago, Orson Hyde had been saying Jesus had 3 wives, at least... As for the papyrus it is just announced, and in a year or two at least 50 papers will get written on it. So time will tell if the academic community will buy it. Remember the James Ossuary? Until it has been looked at by a few scholars, too early to do a new Orson Hyde on it, I think. History2007 (talk) 22:44, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- What that papyrus is proof of is that someone in the 2nd century thought it worth saying that Jesus had a wife, not he did. PiCo (talk) 13:27, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Breaking news: a new scrap of papyrus has been found: the line after 'Jesus said: "My wife..." continues as "...hath gone to the West Indies!" (And apparently Peter then says: "Jamai..." something). PiCo (talk) 04:42, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Length tag
There is a length tag now, and it may be partially right, in that some material has accumulated, although articles like Russia are also comprehensive like this one. I think some sections such as Depictions of Jesus may be trimmed given the Main link, etc. There used to a script that measured text length for use with WP:LENGTH. Does anyone remember where that was? That needs to be measured before we can see what needs to be done. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 08:41, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed that wesplit off pages without removing content, and that then leaving a "main" link with a summary here would improve readability" to get all the content to the reaer.(Lihaas (talk) 10:30, 19 September 2012 (UTC)).
- But do you remember where that javascript is to measure it, so we know if/how much it is stepping over the guidelines? History2007 (talk) 10:33, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think I ever encountered that script, but according to the page history the article is currently at about 250KB. Of course that's total size, including wiki markup, not just content size, but halving the article's size probably would still have it larger than WP:Article size suggests. Huon (talk) 17:16, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- OK, it is here now, Misplaced Pages:DYK#Eligibility_criteria and the markup, references etc. must be excluded. There was one that did not require installation, this one seems to require installation. History2007 (talk) 17:44, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Actual size is less than half of the 250k you found Huon, it is at 104k without markups, Russia being 94k. So somewhat larger than Russia and just over the limit of WP:Length. So if we compress about 15% to 20% or so by moving to Main (easy to do) it will be ok. The depictions and title attributions sections are the easiest to manage - in fact the title attributions was here first, then got expanded and replaced what used to be in that article, etc. So not hard to do at all. History2007 (talk) 07:39, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Anyway, I moved some items such as depictions, archeology, etc. to the outside Main articles and did some minor trims and it is now less than 77k, below the WP:Length limit. So can remove tag. History2007 (talk) 09:29, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
A suggestion
Scrap it and start over. PiCo (talk) 13:35, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- You mean Misplaced Pages, or just this article? History2007 (talk) 13:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Should Christ redirect here?
There was a move and redirect which attempted to point Christ here. Does that make sense? The related discussion is taking place now and suggestions will be appreciated. History2007 (talk) 00:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Misleading, promotion of Christianity
"Jesus, also referred to as Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus Christ or simply Christ (i.e. Messiah), is the central figure of the Christian religion, whom a majority of Christian denominations worship as God the Son incarnated.
"The large majority of modern historians agree that Jesus existed as a Jewish teacher from Galilee in Roman Judaea, was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect, Pontius Pilate
This opening is misleading. It equates "Jesus" with "the Messiah" and with a person baptised by John the Baptist etc. The sources do not state that a large majority of modern historians agree that the Messiah existed and was baptised etc. If there is agreement, it is that there was a historic figure on which the Christian relgious figure is based (to an unkown degree). Also, none of the sources are an actual poll of "modern historians", but rather Christians publishing in Christian publishing houses expressing their opinion about what is "universally accepted." Humanpublic (talk) 19:28, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
- See the discussion 3 or sections above, and WP:RS/AC as well. History2007 (talk) 19:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
- Are you saying that Jesus is not commonly referred to as Christ? Do we really need to trot out a source for such an obvious statement? A Google search shows everything from the Catholic Encyclopedia to Jesus Christ Superstar calling him "Jesus Christ". We also don't claim that the Messiah existed; the article explicitly says Jesus existed as a Jewish teacher from Galilee in Roman Judaea. Furthermore, we don't need a poll of modern historians; History2007 already pointed to WP:RS/AC. The scholars we cite on the academic consensus about Jesus' existence include Bart D. Ehrman who is, according to our article, an agnostic; his publisher HarperCollins isn't what I'd call a "Christian publishing house". Huon (talk) 19:51, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
- He's also not a historian and therefore unqualified to make pronouncements on an alleged consensus among historians. In addition we have real historians (Akenson) who make scathing comments about the lack of impartiality of "historical" research by biblical scholars, as well as prominent NT scholars (John P. Meier for instance) who say that NT scholars are doing theology and calling it history. Martijn Meijering (talk) 19:57, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
- So is Robert M. Price not qualified to say that almost no one agrees with him? Do give us a break here. And again, based on an injection of sanity here have all the historians who think Jesus did not exist been on vacation the last 10 years? Is that why you do not have a single reference to say many of them say so? History2007 (talk) 20:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
- Of course he is, but he is not a historian, but a biblical scholar. He is qualified to say that very few biblical scholars agree with him, and I'm not aware of anyone disputing that. As for historians being on vacation, it does look as if there are no real historians who have made pronouncements on a consensus among historians. And that is what we require for a matter-of-fact statement in Misplaced Pages. Otherwise we can only present it as an opinion, in this case a widely held opinion among the members of a certain profession (NT scholars). We certainly have enough sources for that. We have zero sources so far that historians agree. Your mistake is that you are treating NT scholars as if they were historians, but they're not. In the words of John P. Meier: I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that people claim they are doing a quest for the historical Jesus when de facto they’re doing theology, albeit a theology that is indeed historically informed. Go all the way back to Reimarus, through Schleiermacher, all the way down the line through Bultmann, Kasemann, Bornkamm. These are basically people who are theologians, doing a more modern type of Christology . Martijn Meijering (talk) 20:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
- So is Robert M. Price not qualified to say that almost no one agrees with him? Do give us a break here. And again, based on an injection of sanity here have all the historians who think Jesus did not exist been on vacation the last 10 years? Is that why you do not have a single reference to say many of them say so? History2007 (talk) 20:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Existence is distinct from "historical Jesus" and his portraits, as explained to you again, and again and again Martijn. G. A. Wells and Richard Dawkins think the same that all of these people are inventing tales in the Bible but they do not deny existence. You are beginning to sound like user:Cush on this. Not supplying any references about lack of existence just saying I do not believe this. History2007 (talk) 20:24, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Now, I went to see what Donald Akenson actually says. Akenson does not deny existence of Jesus. He is just critical of the details of the narrative of the gospels. So referring to Akenson in the context of non-existence is incorrect. And of course John Meier is a strong supporter of the existence of Jesus. I did not even have to look that one up. Meier's reconstruction of the Testimonium Flav. which supports the existence of Jesus is widely used by other scholars. Again, Meier disagrees with others on the details of gospel narratives, but he supports existence. So quoting Meier in the context of non-existence is totally inaccurate because Meier is widely known to supports existence. History2007 (talk) 03:30, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- It seems we are talking past each other. I'm not arguing against existence now, nor have I ever. I'm agnostic on the issue, sometimes leaning one way, sometimes the other, but never feeling very sure of myself. And note that even Price doesn't deny that existence is a serious possibility, it's just that on balance he leans towards mythicism and sees (or imagines if you prefer) massive bias and self-deception among biblical scholars. I have no problem with the article saying that Mythicism is a view held by only a tiny minority. That's true, well-sourced and all sides agree on it.
- My problem is that we are allowing factual statements about an academic consensus among historians to stand without a proper reference. Stanton is a fine reference for a consensus among theologians or scholars of religion (and I'm well aware of the difference, my father is a professor emeritus of classics and theology, I have many church ministers among my extended family, and a couple of theologians, we've had all sorts of scholars at birthday parties for as long as I can remember), but not about a consensus among historians. For that we would need a professor of (ancient) history. Otherwise the article misrepresents academic opinion, falsely suggesting the issue has been studied much more widely than in theology departments.
- Note that I'd also be opposed to quoting as fact a hypothetical statement by Price that the majority of historians are agnostic on the issue. Even if they are, Price is not qualified to speak authoritatively (from a WP point of view) on the matter. At best it could be quoted as an opinion by Price, but only if it was considered notable, which for this article it probably shouldn't be.
- As for Akenson and Meier (and Davies earlier), I didn't quote them in support of non-existence, but as additional evidence that NT scholars are not generally to be considered historians. To that I could add Morna Hooker (Stanton's predecessor as Lady Margaret's Professor of Divinity), R. Joseph Hoffmann and others.
- My complaint would be solved by replacing the term "historians" with "biblical scholars", which is undeniably correct and more precise than "historians", or by turning the text into a quoted opinion, not by saying anything about mythicism. Martijn Meijering (talk) 16:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- The current term is "scholars of antiquity", which seems appropriate. The consensus among all scholars with relevant specialties, be they historians, Biblical scholars, or whatever else may be relevant is that he did exist; Ehrman uses that exact phrase (and he's certainly in a position to know that consensus), Grant speaks of "serious scholars" without limiting himself to a certain specialty, and the other sources we cite for the consensus seem to be along similar lines. We shouldn't be more precise than our sources. Huon (talk) 16:42, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- Can you supply any evidence that Ehrman should be considered a historian rather than a biblical scholar? I agree on Grant. I also agree with not being more specific than our sources, but also with not implying something to the reader that isn't true. Don't you find the scathing criticism from Akenson and the criticism from NT scholars the least bit worrying? Martijn Meijering (talk) 16:56, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, scholars of antiquity is what the first source says. And the same notion is confirmed by people across the board from a classicist like Grant to a biblical scholar like Stanton. I really can not figure out what Martijn is saying here, he is saying "I'm not arguing against existence now, nor have I ever" and then seems to be arguing against a statement of it. Then he says: "Akenson and Meier (and Davies earlier), I didn't quote them in support of non-existence, but as additional evidence that NT scholars are not generally to be considered historians." None of those sources said that - none. Meier himself is a biblical scholar but just like some economists criticize some other economists he is criticizing some of his colleagues. There are physicists who accuse others of ignoring cold fusion data etc. And the term historian is not even used in the article, the term is "scholars of the antiquity" which includes classicists and biblical scholars. And being against a statement by Price that he thinks people oppose him is just mind boggling given that Martijn has consistently failed to produce any sources that support his position. Zero sources, just personal opinions. Zero sources, just Martijn's personal opinions.
- Zero sources? I mentioned Perrin, Davies, Meier, Akenson, Hoffmann, and Hooker in support of NT scholars not generally being historians. You mentioned Stanton, who is not a historian and therefore does not qualify, in support. You are the one with zero sources. Martijn Meijering (talk) 16:53, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- And Martijn, for Heaven's sake look at how inconsistent your own statements are. In one breath you say:
- I have no problem with the article saying that Mythicism is a view held by only a tiny minority. That's true, well-sourced and all sides agree on it.
- In the next breath you want to imply that generally the only people who support existence are biblical scholars, leaving open the window that there are hundreds of non-biblical scholars who deny existence. Is that not inconsistent? You have already admitted that there are only a handful of people who deny existence, yet want a statement that goes against the sources, and which suggests there are plenty of historians out there who oppose existence. And of course you have zero sources to support your position. Is this not enough? Is this not enough? History2007 (talk) 19:06, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
- It's not inconsistent and I have supplied several sources, whereas you have supplied none. Huon on the other hand mentioned Grant, who certainly qualifies. I knew he believed in the existence of Jesus, not that he had made remarks about an academic consensus to that effect. If we can dig up a quote, then that would be great.
- I'm amazed it's even necessary, but let me explain the logic to you, it's really quite simple. I object to a statement that paraphrases "the majority of historians believe in the existence of Jesus", not necessarily because it is false, but because it is unverified (at least until we find a source, and Grant would qualify). As you know, Misplaced Pages is not about truth but about verifiability.
- And even if it were to be false, its logical opposite would be "a minority of historians believe in the existence of Jesus", not "a majority of historians disbelieve the existence of Jesus". The opposite of belief is not just belief to the contrary, it also includes the possibility of agnosticism. And that's what I believe to be the case: the vast majority of historians have not studied the issue at all, and do not have a professional opinion on it.
- It would be misleading to suggest the issue has been studied much more widely than in departments of religion or divinity, which in itself should make us wonder about bias, quite apart from the evidence to that effect from the major players in the field that I mentioned. Akenson and Grant are exceptions, there simply aren't many historians who have published about the matter at all, the output seems to come almost exclusively from biblical scholars. If you say that a majority of historians agree that Jesus existed, then the ordinary reader will come away with an impression that it's not just professors of divinity and NT scholars who hold that opinion, but that many professors of history have studied the issue and come to the same conclusion. That has not been demonstrated and in fact I believe it to be false, and therefore I strongly object to a formulation that implies it. Maybe I'm all wrong about it, but I'm not the one saying my opinion should be stated as fact in the article, and the onus is on the person proposing the claim. Note that merely reporting the claim as a claim would not be problematic at all, yet you appear to object to that, for reasons I cannot fathom.
- As for wanting a statement which suggests there are plenty of historians out there who oppose existence that is simply not true. I want something like "the majority of biblical scholars believe in the existence of Jesus" which would suggest precisely zero about what historians or wider scholarship might think. What on Earth makes you think that a statement about biblical scholars could allow one to make inferences about historians? It does no such thing, any more than it implies anything about the views of astronomers, housewives or aircraft mechanics. Martijn Meijering (talk) 17:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- The current term is "scholars of antiquity", which seems appropriate. The consensus among all scholars with relevant specialties, be they historians, Biblical scholars, or whatever else may be relevant is that he did exist; Ehrman uses that exact phrase (and he's certainly in a position to know that consensus), Grant speaks of "serious scholars" without limiting himself to a certain specialty, and the other sources we cite for the consensus seem to be along similar lines. We shouldn't be more precise than our sources. Huon (talk) 16:42, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
The article says exactly what Ehrman says: "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed". So that statement has a clear source and Ehrman is a solid WP:RS source. That is simple. Making the statement that "virtually all biblical scholars believe that Jesus existed" is an incorrect representation of the academic consensus because it deviates from the source. And Van Voorst says: "biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted". So modifying what he say at will based on your desires is also deviation from the source. So the statements are fully sourced. And Van Voorst is a totally WP:RS source and the standard work on the subject now - really. On page 162 of his book Michael McClymond relies on it, and calls it the "best recent discussion on the topic". And on page 154 of his book, after reviewing the historical issues, Craig L. Blomberg states: "The fullest compilation of all this data is now conveniently accessible in Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence". So Van Voorst is a great WP:RS source for this article. Richard Carrier matters not, but even Carrier endorses Van Voorst.
Now you say you want to
- suggest precisely zero about what historians or wider scholarship might think
Why? Why suppress what they think when we have WP:RS sources that say what they think. Why can the opinions of wider group of scholars not be stated when we have multiple WP:RS sources for it, and none against?
Trust me: "suggesting precisely zero what a wider group of scholars might think" is not the way to develop an encyclopedia. That can not be done in Misplaced Pages. The goal here is to inform the reader, not suggest zero. Trust me on that one. History2007 (talk) 17:32, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Don't patronise me young man. And don't twist my words. You falsely accused me of wanting to imply something false about the views of historians, and I demonstrated I didn't simply by showing my proposed wording didn't imply anything about historians. My proposed wording would make a true, relevant and well-sourced statement about the views of biblical scholars. If you want to add anything about the views of historians, then go quote some historians. Good luck with that because apart from Akenson and Grant very few historians appear to have published on the issue. Ehrman most certainly does not qualify. Martijn Meijering (talk) 17:39, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Young man? I wish, I wish... As I said, I am ok with "scholars of antiquity" which is exactly what the source states and the page states. Ehrman is widely used in Misplaced Pages, even on the Christ myth theory page. He is totally WP:RS, and is widely used in Misplaced Pages on the topic. And I absolutely maintain that your approach of "saying precisely zero" about the larger audience will deviate from the sources. I absolutely maintain that. You can not just pick a "half sentence" out of Van Voorst. The sources are not silent on the wider group of scholars. Again, "suggesting precisely zero what a wider group of scholars might think" is not the way to develop an encyclopedia. History2007 (talk) 17:54, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Very well, I take back the "young man" and limit myself to "don't patronise me", because that's exactly what you did. And if you want to address me by my first name (you're welcome), kindly do me the courtesy of telling me your own first name. Martijn Meijering (talk) 16:17, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- Martijn Meijering asked for a citation from Grant; that's already in the article. I begin to find this discussion a little strange. Why the insistence on Ehrman's status as "not a historian"? We don't claim he is one himself, do we? (In fact, we no longer mention "historians" in that entire paragraph, and I do think that's an improvement.) But whatever specialization Ehrman personally may have, he's certainly in a position to speak with authority on the academic consensus among all scholars of antiquity. We can go to the reliable sources noticeboard for another opinion on Ehrman's status as a source on the academic consensus in these closely related fields, but I don't think that's necessary. And Ehrman is just one of almost a half dozen reliable sources on this single point - not on the existence itself, but on the consensus about the existence. Regarding the historians Martijn Meijering mentioned above: As long as none of them commented on the scholarly consensus, they're irrelevant to this discussion. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data"; we need more than a list of individual opinions to question multiple sources explicitly commenting on the majority opinion among scholars. Martijn Meijering also asked me whether I find the scathing criticism from Akenson and the criticism from NT scholars the least bit worrying. I haven't read Akenson or those NT scholars, so I'm in no position to be worried by them. But unless and until their criticism is accepted as valid by the academic mainstream we should not give them undue weight just because we personally agree with that criticism. If they manage to re-open the debate about the existence of some historical Jesus and we have a source to that effect, great, let's add it. Do we have such a source? Huon (talk) 18:35, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Young man? I wish, I wish... As I said, I am ok with "scholars of antiquity" which is exactly what the source states and the page states. Ehrman is widely used in Misplaced Pages, even on the Christ myth theory page. He is totally WP:RS, and is widely used in Misplaced Pages on the topic. And I absolutely maintain that your approach of "saying precisely zero" about the larger audience will deviate from the sources. I absolutely maintain that. You can not just pick a "half sentence" out of Van Voorst. The sources are not silent on the wider group of scholars. Again, "suggesting precisely zero what a wider group of scholars might think" is not the way to develop an encyclopedia. History2007 (talk) 17:54, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- (Neutral observer opinion) I think this whole debate is horse puckey and the sooner we get to WP:ARBCOM for a decision about the "Existence of Jesus" controversy the better. History2007: I hope you will forgive me for unwatching this one page, because this particular article is too unwieldy and controversial to be saved by any one editor. (The sooner you admit that for yourself, the more time you will save for other worthy endeavors.) Elizium23 (talk) 18:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Does Arbcom rule over minor issues content like this? In any case, Martijn is the only one arguing about the sources not being qualified. Arbcom is an amazingly loooong endeavor and takes for ever. I hope this can be resolved here if other editors comment and consensus can be reached. History2007 (talk) 18:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- From my subjective observation point it looks very much as if I'm talking to a wall here. We shouldn't need to think about Arbcom before we've even begun to have a factual discussion. I'm trying to make a precise point, and you appear to be responding to a point I didn't even make. I'll take my share of responsibility for the lack of effective communication, but no more than that. From where I'm standing it doesn't look as if you're making much of an effort.
- To repeat, I'm not criticising the sources offered as being qualified to speak to a majority of biblical scholars holding a certain opinion. They're absolutely fine for that. I'm not arguing existence itself either way. I'm merely addressing whether the sources offered meet the criteria of ] among scholars of antiquity and to me it seems that very clearly they do not, because 1) they appear to be almost exclusively limited to the much smaller subgroup of departments of theology or religion and therefore not representative of the larger group and 2) the statements they make (with the exception of Ehrman) are not logically equivalent to the statement in the article. Grant for instance speaks of "scholars" without being specific and only addresses scholars who have actually taken a position.
- I agree with Huon's point that scholars of antiquity is an improvement over historians, but I contend it is still too broad and unsupported by the quotes that have been offered. I'll be happy to be better informed if I'm mistaken, but I see no real engagement with my arguments. It's hard to have a discussion if your arguments are being ignored instead of responded to. My concern is emphatically not to promote mythicism, as I said I'm agnostic on the issue, and I don't even care too strongly either way, though I'd be curious which of the two is true.
- My goal is to make sure that what the article says does not mislead the reader into believing the issue has been more widely studied than it really has been, and I contend the article stil does that. In my opinion the change to "scholars of antiquity" was an improvement, but more is needed. Perhaps you disagree and that is fine, but why on Earth wouldn't you want to help me to address these concerns? Surely it would be for the better of the article to improve neutrality and accuracy?
- Maybe I'm not hearing some of your own concerns accurately either, in which case I'd be happy to learn about them. Martijn Meijering (talk) 16:33, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- Does Arbcom rule over minor issues content like this? In any case, Martijn is the only one arguing about the sources not being qualified. Arbcom is an amazingly loooong endeavor and takes for ever. I hope this can be resolved here if other editors comment and consensus can be reached. History2007 (talk) 18:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- If I understand you correctly, you're saying that Ehrman is out of his depth when he asserts that "virtually every competent scholar of antiquity" agrees that Jesus exists? And that Van Voorst, who speaks not just of biblical scholars but explicitly of classical historians, likewise doesn't know what he's talking about? And that when Grant in a book written in his role as a historian and so named talks about "scholars", that's not meant as a more general term than "biblical scholars", or that there might be a significant number of people who think Jesus didn't exist but somehow don't publish on the topic? And that Price, who is an expert on historicity, somehow is unaware of a widespread sentiment that agrees with his own position? I have ... problems with that, in particular since one would expect that if all the biblical scholars misrepresented the consensus among other relevant scholarly branches someone would speak up and set the record straight - the record on the consensus, that is, and despite History2007's repeated questions we have seen no source to that effect.
- Maybe we disagree on a more basic level about what "academic consensus" means. Of course Grant only speaks of those scholars who have published on the subject - because firstly, there's no way to know what the others think unless you happen to ask them in person, and secondly, if they haven't published, their opinion is utterly irrelevant for the academic consensus. Similarly, I'd have thought it self-evident that Ehrman's claim about "virtually every scholar" technically also holds only for those who have actually published on that question. After all, an archaeologist specializing in the Peloponnesian War who has never published on Jesus is also a "competent scholar of antiquity", but his opinion on Jesus' existence is just as irrelevant for the academic consensus as that of a nuclear physicist.
- I've asked the RSN for input on whether or not Ehrman, Van Voorst and the others are reliable sources on the academic consensus among more than just the biblical scholars. Should I have failed to clearly express your concerns, please correct me over there. Huon (talk) 19:06, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'll do that if necessary, but I resent the fact that you jump to bringing in others before constructively replying to my arguments first. Martijn Meijering (talk) 19:14, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- Actually Huon, 2 sections above that I had posted on WP:RSN asking for opinions also. And I suggest that there should be just one post there. History2007 (talk) 19:15, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Firstly, I agree that there should be just one section at the RSN; I've removed mine and instead commented on History2007's. Secondly, since I believe we all agree that the article gives a faithful rendition of what Ehrman says, the question of whether Ehrman is qualified to speak about the scholarly consensus among all scholars of antiquity or not seems central to the dispute. I say he is because scholars usually do know what happens in closely related fields, and Ehrman, Van Voorst and the others wouldn't make claims about the wider community if they didn't mean it or didn't know what they're talking about. (Besides, he got it published with a reputable publisher.) Martijn Meijering apparently says he isn't because he and the rest of the biblical scholars only talk among themselves and ignore (or are ignorant about?) other related fields where publications on the issue might be comparativley scarce (except Van Voorst who explicitly mentions the classical historians). I don't think either of us is likely to convince the other any more than we've been able to do so over the past few weeks. Getting more input thus seemed the natural course of action and not something to be resented - I tried to be as neutral as possible so the people at RSN could take an unbiased look. Besides, I explained yesterday that the RSN seemed the next step to me but for my belief that we didn't need to bother them with what I considered a trivial question. Since Martijn Meijering seemed to disagree with my answer to that question, I took the next step. Why is that a problem? Finally, I believe I did address Martijn Meijering's arguments, but maybe we're talking so much at cross-purposes that we don't even understand each other's arguments any more - and my solution would once again be to bring in someone new who may understand both arguments. Huon (talk) 19:53, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- Even if you accept that scholars from a neighbouring field qualify in general (which seems like an enormous and undesirable widening of the criteria), or in this particular case (but then why?), there remains the matter of John P. Meier (a major biblical scholar in Historical Jesus research) who says his field has been "doing theology and calling it history", the historian Akenson who has published on the Historical Jesus, and who has been scathing about the lack of impartiality and sound historical methodological soundness amount HJ scholars. They too ought then to be considered as scholars on the subject and they impeach the argument that biblical scholars should be considered historians. I've named several other respectable sources and I'd be happy to provide details of their statements. Martijn Meijering (talk) 00:49, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Does any of them dispute the statement that the vast majority of scholars agrees Jesus existed? They seem to argue that the vast majority is wrong, but they also seem to agree that the field is almost unanimous in its opinion. Also, I do accept that scholars who write about the general consensus on a question that squarely falls within their area of expertise should be treated as reliable sources. Otherwise we'd be second-guessing published scholarly sources, and once we start that, where do we stop? Huon (talk) 02:18, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- None of them do. But my line of argument was not to offer a list of scholars holding a dissenting view. I don't understand why you and History2007 seem to think that was my line of argument, because it would be totally illogical. You don't disprove a majority of scholars hold a certain opinion by offering examples of scholars who dissent. At best that would prove the agreement isn't universal, which isn't good enough to disprove the statement. Besides, by WP policy we aren't supposed to count sources ourselves, but to rely on an assessment by scholars in the field. My line of argument is that the range of scholars considered in the statement has been drawn too widely, and that the sources that have been offered are not RS for that whole range. In other words, I disagree with your assertion that the issue falls squarely within the area of expertise of the scholars that were mentioned. Either additional sources should be supplied (my personal belief is no such scholars exist, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong), or the statement about a consensus should be limited to the people who have actualy published on the matter, who are almost exclusively biblical scholars and only a handful of scholars from other fields. My attempts at a better formulation have not met with approval though. Martijn Meijering (talk) 02:40, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Does any of them dispute the statement that the vast majority of scholars agrees Jesus existed? They seem to argue that the vast majority is wrong, but they also seem to agree that the field is almost unanimous in its opinion. Also, I do accept that scholars who write about the general consensus on a question that squarely falls within their area of expertise should be treated as reliable sources. Otherwise we'd be second-guessing published scholarly sources, and once we start that, where do we stop? Huon (talk) 02:18, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- There is no problem at all with posting on RSN. And from what I have seen Martijn Meijering wants to "modify Ehrman's quote", as I explained below, and that can not be done, based on Misplaced Pages policy. If professor A writes Europe, his quote can not be changed to say half of Europe. History2007 (talk) 20:02, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- The alleged quote is not in fact a quote, but an attempted summary of what various writers say. As I said, I have no problem with presenting it as a quote by Ehrman, in other words a report, an opinion by a named source. This is standard WP policy. Martijn Meijering (talk) 00:49, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Attribution is usually only required when the statement is controversial, but there are lots of sources corroborating Ehrman's statement (though not in exactly the same words) and none contradicting it. WP:RS/AC requires that statements about the academic consensus be sourced, but it doesn't require us to only use quotes about the scholarly consensus. Huon (talk) 02:18, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- My preference is not attribution, I only mentioned that as a possibility because History2007 objected to changing the wording on the grounds that it didn't precisely match the source (but how on Earth how could it, with multiple sources each using their own wording?). The exact wording is only relevant in an attributed opinion, so I think his objection is flawed. If History2007 insists on sticking to Ehrman's reading rather than a fair summary of the various sources he should present the exact reading as an attributed quote. Martijn Meijering (talk) 02:40, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Again, there are multiple scholars who say the same thing. The problem started with your attempt at saying "exactly zero about the wider audience". This is a straightforward situation: Hardly anyone with an academic position disputes the existence of Jesus. That is what Ehrman/Van Voorst etc all say. Why is all this long dance necessary? History2007 (talk) 05:00, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- My preference is not attribution, I only mentioned that as a possibility because History2007 objected to changing the wording on the grounds that it didn't precisely match the source (but how on Earth how could it, with multiple sources each using their own wording?). The exact wording is only relevant in an attributed opinion, so I think his objection is flawed. If History2007 insists on sticking to Ehrman's reading rather than a fair summary of the various sources he should present the exact reading as an attributed quote. Martijn Meijering (talk) 02:40, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Attribution is usually only required when the statement is controversial, but there are lots of sources corroborating Ehrman's statement (though not in exactly the same words) and none contradicting it. WP:RS/AC requires that statements about the academic consensus be sourced, but it doesn't require us to only use quotes about the scholarly consensus. Huon (talk) 02:18, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
lead paragraph
i was just going to make a couple of slight changes to the lead and read a message that said that it was necessary to explain here first - all it is is i dont think 'self-described' Messiah is quite right, - that was more a label put on him surely by others, than he went round saying 'im the messiah' - in the gospel of Thomas he says the one who said 'no one can say who you are' is the closest to the truth didn't he? , - and then i think the bit about 'the awaited messiah of the OLd testament' - is very un-nuanced - was there a set view of what the title meant, and what the various books of the OLd Testament all led readers to await? it needs more nuanced expression somehow imo. Sayerslle (talk) 15:46, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- I agree, the "self described" item is probably left over from long ago, and the whole issue of whether he called himself Messiah is totally non-historical. In fact, there are only 8 things that scholars "roughly" agree on 4+4: "He was baptized by John the Baptist. He called disciples. He had a controversy at the Temple. Jesus was crucified by the Romans". Then that: "He was a Galilean. His activities were confined to Galilee and Judea. After his death his disciples continued. Some of his disciples were persecuted". Even then some argue that he never called disciples. So exactly as you stated that part is somewhat of an over generalization and needs a fix. The issue is that it probably came from the Historical Jesus article, which is mostly incorrect and was not the place to get things from. So I think you are right. History2007 (talk) 16:12, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Seeking opinions on sources
Based on past and present discussions, it may be a good idea to seek opinions on the use of sources within this page, specially with respect to existence. The sources and statements in question are:
- A: Bart Ehrman: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6 HarperOne Press page 285
- B: Robert M. Price agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars: Robert M. Price "Jesus at the Vanishing Point" in The Historical Jesus: Five Views edited by James K. Beilby & Paul Rhodes Eddy, 2009 InterVarsity Press Press, ISBN 028106329X page 61
- C Michael Grant states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Michael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 Rigel Publications page 200
- D Robert E. Van Voorst states that biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted. Van Voorst, Robert E (2000). Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence. William B. Eerdmans ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 page 16
- E James D. G. Dunn "Paul's understanding of the death of Jesus" in Sacrifice and Redemption edited by S. W. Sykes (Dec 3, 2007) Cambridge University Press ISBN 052104460X pages 35-36 states that the theories of non-existence of Jesus are "a thoroughly dead thesis"
- F Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 William B. Eerdmans Press page 34
- G Graham Stanton in The Gospels and Jesus by Graham Stanton, 1989 ISBN 0192132415 Oxford University Press, page 145 states that "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed"
My view is that Ehrman is a really well established professor in the field and Harper Collins is certainly WP:RS. Price (an atheist) is making a statement that assesses the field as relates to his view (directly related). Grant is a highly respected scholar - and no one here is disputing him anyway. Van Voorst's book has been called the "best recent discussion on the topic" and "The fullest compilation of all this data". Dunn, Burridge and Stanton are highly decorated professors with books by reliable publishers.
Moreover, I think it is essential to observe three points:
- There are no opposing sources whatsover. No one is saying that there are sources that dispute Ehrman's statement, or Van Voorst's quote, etc. There is no opposition whatsover in terms of other WP:RS sources to what the sources say.
- These scholars are not expressing their own opinions, bu are providing a survey of the Academic consensus per WP:RS/AC. The only methodology they are using is counting how many people are on each side of the debate
- All of these scholars (almost all well established professors) are intimately involved in the field. They are not new to the topic.
I think these are totally WP:RS sources.
Comments from other editors will be appreciated. History2007 (talk) 19:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- one of the books listed in the bibliography at the end - E P Sanders, the Historical figure of Jesus - Paul Johnson called it 'a non-dogmatic study of the evidence by a leading expert' - so maybe using Sanders as a source would be good to add to the others , he is widely respected - the other sources seem fair enough too as you say- and i think from what i've heard said elsewhere- by John Romer on the TV series 'Testament' for eg.- the sentence in the lead as it stands is fair enough imo. Sayerslle (talk) 21:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, as you said Sanders is widely respected, and a non-believer. Further down, the page currently says: "both E.P. Sanders and Paula Fredriksen support the historicity of the crucifixion, but contend that Jesus did not foretell of his own crucifixion, and that his prediction of the crucifixion is a Christian story" And Fredriksen is also highly respected and a non-believers, as is Geza Vermes who is also quoted. So there are plenty of respected scholars who are quoted. The reason for using the 8 sources above, however, was that they are not even expressing their own view, just "counting how many scholars there are on each side of the debate" per WP:RS/AC. And as you said the statements they make are consistent, reasonable by modern scholarly standards and have no conflict with any sources we have seen. History2007 (talk) 21:39, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'd say we're overdoing it if I hadn't watched the discussion about the statement supported by all those sources. They are clearly reliable; the scholars we cite are experts in their field and should know the consensus among their colleagues, and no sources dispute the conclusion they draw. What more could we possibly want? Huon (talk) 23:41, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
- Of course they're reliable when it comes to their colleagues, I object to wording that goes beyond that circle. Martijn Meijering (talk) 19:18, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'd say we're overdoing it if I hadn't watched the discussion about the statement supported by all those sources. They are clearly reliable; the scholars we cite are experts in their field and should know the consensus among their colleagues, and no sources dispute the conclusion they draw. What more could we possibly want? Huon (talk) 23:41, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Two points: First, it must be clarified that biblical scholarship is distinct from theology and as the Oxford Handbook of Biblical Studies states it includes archaeology, Egyptology, textual criticism, linguistics, history, sociology and theology. So these authors are fully immersed in the field and know who writes what.
- I don't think I said or implied anything about theology, the term I used was biblical scholarship or NT scholarship. I'm well aware of the difference as I pointed out to you earlier. If you think the article needs to spell that out more clearly, then I'm not stopping you. Martijn Meijering (talk) 02:54, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Secondly you can not (really not) modify what a source says and take half of what it says. Let me clarify this with an example:
- Professor A (who teaches in Germany) writes that Lake Ladoga is the largest lake in Europe.
- You think he does not necessarily know of the lakes in Spain and should only talk about lakes in Eastern Europe.
- You do not have any professor B who says there is a larger lake anywhere in Europe. So no source disputes professor A.
You cannot modify the quote by professor A to say "Lake Ladoga is the largest lake in Eastern Europe". You can not do that. And that is specially true if there is not even one source that disputes what professor A states. Moreover, we have six other sources that confirm what professor A states.
- This is not the situation we're in. It's not that professor X makes a factual statement Y, it's that professor A makes a statement about a consensus of scholars in field B holding opinion C. The situation we're dealing with is statements about an academic consensus, for which WP has specific rules, which I mentioned to you before, after having pointed out my line of argument was emphatically not what you just said. And in fact right below you go on to mention the self-same criteria! Martijn Meijering (talk) 02:54, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Per WP:RS/AC:
- Any statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors.
You can not use your own assessment of the scholarly consensus. If professor A said Europe, you cannot modify it to say half of Europe based on your own assessment. That is Misplaced Pages policy. History2007 (talk) 19:40, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- Why do I have to keep pointing out that I was arguing precisely that the sources offered do not meet the standards WP sets for making statements about an academic consensus, rather than offering my own assessment. You accuse me of offering my own assessment, when in fact I was insisting we shouldn't and should instead use WP's specific criteria for this case. In this vein I'm claiming your set of sources do not support the very wide consensus that is being alleged. Your complaints of not getting sources contradicting "opinion C" amounts to asking for personal assessment of a consensus, precisely what you've argued we shouldn't be doing! Martijn Meijering (talk) 02:54, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Analysis of whether the quoted sources support the statement
New section so as not to disrupt the flow of arguments made by History2007.
It is my understanding that in order to make a statement S "a majority of scholars in field X hold opinion Y" WP verifiability criteria require a quote from a source RS who is a) a reliable source on field X who b) actually states S, as opposed to some vaguely similar statement or as opposed to merely stating Y. It is not generally sufficient that RS is a reliable source on a related field. As an example, we would not generally accept a physicist as a RS on mathematics. Nevertheless additional evidence might be produced to demonstrate that specific individuals from neighbouring fields do qualify. It is my understanding that Grant is an example of this.
If I'm wrong about these things, then I'll be happy to be better informed, especially if people go about it in a friendly way, instead of shouting down legitimate and sincere concerns.
Now, let me go through the quoted sources one by one and explain where I think they do not meet the standards. If my understanding above about the required criteria is defective, then all this may be moot, but let's get to that when people have had the opportunity to respond.
But before I start, let me stress that I consider all these scholars fine sources that have valuable things to say that ought to be quoted in the article. My concern is to find a wording that doesn't misrepresent the strength of academic opinion on the matter. Even if you don't share the concern yourself, I hope you'll agree that the concern is at least legitimate, in that if the wording were to mislead ordinary readers as to the strength of academic consensus, then that would be a bad thing.
The statement S that we are considering is "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed." The trouble here is that scholarship of antiquity is not a single field, it includes classics, ancient history, biblical scholarship and who knows what, and scholars are not generally competent in all subfields. For example, the average ancient historian is not generally expected to be up to speed with the details of thinking among biblical scholars. I think that generally speaking classicists ought to be allowed as reliable sources on opinions among classicists etc, and that additional evidence would be needed to quote them on the thinking among biblical scholars.
Again, maybe I'm wrong about this, but hopefully you'll at least see where I'm coming from before you run to Arbcom or wherever before having engaged my arguments.
Now on to the sources.
- A: Bart Ehrman: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6 HarperOne Press page 285
- The statement S clearly does match what is said in the article, but while Ehrman is a scholar of antiquity, he cannot be expected to speak for all scholars of antiquity, in particular ancient historians or classicists. He does look like an excellent source for biblical scholars. That still leaves us in need of additional sources for the other subfields.
- B: Robert M. Price agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars: Robert M. Price "Jesus at the Vanishing Point" in The Historical Jesus: Five Views edited by James K. Beilby & Paul Rhodes Eddy, 2009 InterVarsity Press Press, ISBN 028106329X page 61
- No evidence has been offered that Price has supported statement S. He is merely paraphrased as saying his views runs against the majority of scholars, presumably those who have published on the matter. It says nothing about the vast majority who haven't, while statement S does. Price's claim is far less sweeping than S. In addition, Price is a biblical scholar, so again we only have the subfield of biblical scholarship covered.
- C Michael Grant states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Michael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 Rigel Publications page 200
- Grant is a classicist and historian and therefore covers two bases. Again, he makes a far less sweeping statement than S. He says nothing about a majority of scholars of antiquity, instead he refers to the much, much smaller group of scholars who have published on the subject.
- D Robert E. Van Voorst states that biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted. Van Voorst, Robert E (2000). Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence. William B. Eerdmans ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 page 16
- Van Voorst covers biblical scholarship, but not classical historians. Again, he makes a far less sweeping statement than S. No mention of the vast legions of scholars of antiquity who are neither biblical scholars nor classical historians or of the vast majority who have never published on the matter or those who are professionally agnostic on the issue.
- E James D. G. Dunn "Paul's understanding of the death of Jesus" in Sacrifice and Redemption edited by S. W. Sykes (Dec 3, 2007) Cambridge University Press ISBN 052104460X pages 35-36 states that the theories of non-existence of Jesus are "a thoroughly dead thesis"
- Again, a biblical scholar, though this time with an even more sweeping statement. The brief quote doesn't allow further analysis.
- F Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 William B. Eerdmans Press page 34
- Yet another biblical scholar. He merely states that he doesn't know any respectable critical scholar who disagrees, which is not the same as saying virtually all scholars of antiquity agree. Maybe he doesn't know enough people, or not outside the field of historical critical bible scholarship, or perhaps the vast majority of scholars of antiquity don't hold a professional opinion on the matter.
- G Graham Stanton in The Gospels and Jesus by Graham Stanton, 1989 ISBN 0192132415 Oxford University Press, page 145 states that "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed"
- Stanton is a biblical scholar, not a historian, so his statement on historians doesn't count. He doesn't make any statement about other scholars of antiquity, so he's no help there either.
Now, don't get me wrong. It's not as if these fine gentlemen have nothing important to say. I think that together they amply demonstrate something that to the best of my knowledge no one has disputed:
The vast majority of scholars who have published on the issue of the historicity of Jesus have come out in favour of it. Only a small group of serious scholars and a somewhat larger group of nonserious scholars dispute it.
I'd be happy with that statement, but that's not what S says. In my opinion S enlists vast legions of scholars in support of historicity who have never published on it or even studied it. That's what I want to change, and I believe I should be able to count on your help to find a form of words that alleviates my concerns, or at the very least that you don't sabotage this or go running off to Arbcom or whatever to quash discussion. My initial proposal to change the wording to "biblical scholars" didn't meet your approval, and I'd love to hear other constructive suggestions.
Another thing that deserves to be mentioned, or at the very least not denied by implication, is that while the vast majority of scholars who have published on the issue have been professional "scholars of antiquity" and that by definition every serious scholar from another field who has studied the matter is at least a nonprofessional "scholar of antiquity", the scholars tend to come from one very specific subfield, namely biblical scholarship. It is true that there have been scholars from other fields (modern history, ancient history, classics, English literature and no doubt others), but they are a tiny minority among a vast majority of biblical scholars, just like mythicists are a tiny minority among scholars in general. Martijn Meijering (talk) 20:18, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- So the long and short of it is this: You think the situation is described by:
- I: The vast majority of scholars who have published on the issue of the historicity of Jesus have come out in favour of it.
- II: Only a small group of serious scholars and a somewhat larger group of nonserious scholars dispute it.
- The first problem is that you do not have a source for "I". But you have effectively conceded that all the sources above are totally valid. Again, in terms of the above, you can not (really not) construct your own quote that ""Lake Ladoga is the largest lake among all lakes in Europe which have been measured by a team of geologists". If professor A has a quote Q that says "Lake Ladoga is the largest lake in Europe", you cannot perform interior decoration on his quote to construct quote Q2 to fit your personal assessment. Secondly, there are no "nonserious scholars". I think you mean to refer to "popular writers" who do not hold academic positions. They are generally called popular writers, and in terms of scholarship, they matter not. History2007 (talk) 21:24, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
- Statement S was not presented as a quoted opinion, and does not represent a common quote, but a summary of various views. The wording is certainly very different from what the other sources than Ehrman have said, which is not surprising since they all use different wording.
- As for "conceding" a point, I have never disagreed that these are fine sources to use in the article, and I have repeatedly said they are fine. What I did and do say is that they do not meet what I believe to be the technical criteria (reliable source from the field in question, clear statement about a majority of opinion among the whole group for which it is being claimed) for the claim about academic consensus among a certain group of scholars as it is currently worded. It's fine to disagree on the specifics, and even better to see if we might reach agreement. I'd be fine with changing the wording of the claim, or with turning the claim into a quote by a named source rather than a sourced statement per standard WP:NPOV procedure. It doesn't help if you react to strawman arguments I didn't make and have repeatedly and emphatically denied making or even agreeing with. You didn't like my suggestions, perhaps you have suggestions of your own. I'd like to think we all have the same goal here, to serve neutrality and verifiability.
- You didn't address my point about the individual scholars not being qualified to act as a RS about the whole group (scholars of antiquity) for the which the claim of censensus is made, nor the fact that except for Ehrman and Dunn they don't even make the sweeping statement. More importantly, you show no sign of constructively helping me address a sincere concern. Instead you seem to be responding combatively. You didn't like my initial suggestion of saying "biblical scholars", nor my second attempt at a rephrasing that addresses my concerns. Perhaps you have constructive suggestions of your own?
- I didn't understand your point about nonserious scholars. Grant says very few serious scholars have disagreed with historicity. I don't know of a better term for the group of scholars whom he does not take seriously than nonserious scholars. Maybe it's not an important point, but I'd like to make sure I understand your point. Martijn Meijering (talk) 01:10, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I have addressed your point N times now, with N rapidly approaching infinity. I think Ehrman is totally qualified to address the issue and his statement is exactly right. And I think the distinction you are making about their specialties is absolute nitpicking, artificial and surreal. I am sorry that is exactly what I think.
Look:
- These professors (Ehrman, Grant, Van Voorst, etc.) all read the same journals that Goggle Scholar and Google books search. There are just a few major universities, a few major books and these professors do not have to go to Mars to find out which scholars support the historicity of Jesus and which do not. That is clear to everyone on this planet.
- Everyone mentioned here (the professors) and the editors who type here, and the other Misplaced Pages articles all "agree" on the same thing: only a handful of people with PhDs (or perhaps even less) who teach at universities deny the existence of Jesus.
So trying to denigrate these professors based on their specialties, reconstruct what they say by adding long qualifiers, etc. is surreal, artificial and incorrect, specially when there are no opposing sources. I am sorry, that is exactly what I think. History2007 (talk) 04:53, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- I came back with a hunch that I had perhaps misunderstood your request for an opposing opinion, and that you were asking for an opinion contradicting consensus rather than one contradicting existence. But I see you are back to your snooty, intransigent and uncooperative attitude. You still haven't addressed my sincere concern or offered any help. Either offer to help or kindly get out of the way.
- I am not denigrating these professors, I have repeatedly said positive things about them. I am not questioning whether they can do a Google search, but that is not the relevant criterion, since you and I can do a Google search too and that emphatically is not enough ground for a statement on consensus as WP:RS/AC clearly states. The question is not whether Ehrman can do a Google search, it's whether he is a reliable source on historians and I contend it is far from obvious he is. I'm open to persuasion he is if additional evidence is offered, or if you engage with my argument instead of simply repeating your own. That way you might lead me to see the error of my ways, or to clarify my argument and either way increase understanding.
- Let me add another consideration to the mix: I believe Ehrman himself, and if not him then other prominent HJ researchers, have criticised the historian Richard Carrier as being unqualified to offer an opinion on the historicity of Jesus because he is a historian, not a biblical scholar with knowledge of Aramaic, Hebrew and Syriac. So are we to believe that Ehrman is qualified to speak about historians because he is a biblical scholar, but historians aren't qualified to speak about biblical scholars? That's a strange double standard. And by your reasoning, is Ehrman qualified to address the opinion of a majority of the combined set of biblical scholars and nuclear physicists, being a member of that combined set?
- Why is it that you are so defensive about Ehrman's qualifications to speak about historians and scholars of antiquity in general? Why insist on Ehrman's wording and not choose Grant's formulation instead? Martijn Meijering (talk) 15:06, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- * Everyone mentioned here (the professors) and the editors who type here, and the other Misplaced Pages articles all "agree" on the same thing: only a handful of people with PhDs (or perhaps even less) who teach at universities deny the existence of Jesus.
- A point I have made several times myself. But that is not what the statement "a majority of scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed" says, the latter is a much more sweeping statement. And yet you appear to insist on the sweeping statement, despite my concern it will mislead people as to the size of the academic consensus. Maybe you don't share my concern, but why not help me alleviate it? What harm could possibly come of it? I don't see any, but if you do, kindly speak up. Martijn Meijering (talk) 15:13, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Again, as stated before, you have no basis for your view that 7 scholars listed above are not capable of counting how many people there are on each side of the debate. The only way they could not know that is if there are scholars they are unaware of, or journals they are unaware of. And where are these hiding scholars who oppose historicity? And why is it that the likes of Ehrman, Van Voorst or Grant are unaware of them or their views? Are these other scholars on Mars? Do we need to send the Mars rover to look for them? No.
- Again, you misstate my position. My view was emphatically not that Ehrman et al cannot count, in fact I explicitly stated that that was not the issue. My point is that they do not meet WP technical criteria of WP:RS/AC if the consensus in question is to extend to neighbouring fields. Counting is not enough, not if you or I do it, not if someone from a neighbouring field does it. A consensus in a field needs an expert from exactly that field. And scholarship of "antiquity" isn't even a field, it encompasses a number of fields, and Ehrman is only an expert in one, and Grant in two. Martijn Meijering (talk) 12:09, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- As all sources and lists indicate, there are "a handful of academics" (or less) who deny historicity and you have directly admitted that they are a "tiny minority". Do you have "a few sources" that per WP:RS/AC state that a good number of scholars of antiquity have stated that they are agnostic on the existence of Jesus? Or is that your "personal opinion?" The long and short of it is that you seem to think these 7 professors are not capable of counting the number of people on each side of the debate, and based on your own superior knowledge you know better and need to remedy their errors. That is not so. History2007 (talk) 15:57, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- I have no such sources, nor do I need them because the onus is on those alleging consensus to support it by reliable sources, not on those who oppose them (or are merely skeptical, like myself) to find reliable sources. By WP policy mere counting is not enough, and I don't need to remedy their "error", you are the one who needs to find reliable sources. Martijn Meijering (talk) 12:09, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Again, as stated before, you have no basis for your view that 7 scholars listed above are not capable of counting how many people there are on each side of the debate. The only way they could not know that is if there are scholars they are unaware of, or journals they are unaware of. And where are these hiding scholars who oppose historicity? And why is it that the likes of Ehrman, Van Voorst or Grant are unaware of them or their views? Are these other scholars on Mars? Do we need to send the Mars rover to look for them? No.
Ok, that is good. You have now clearly stated that you have no sources that oppose the sources presented such as Ehrman/VanVoorst/etc. or that provide any different assessment. However, regarding your statement that "by WP policy mere counting is not enough" you seem to be confusing the number of scholars surveyed per WP:RS/AC with the "internal Misplaced Pages policy" WP:CON where counting is not enough. WP:CON applies to Wiki-editors, not expressions of academic consensus among scholars, most of whom have been fortunate enough never to have read Misplaced Pages policies. History2007 (talk) 12:24, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
No academic still teaching at a major university denies the existence of Jesus
Given the length of the discussion above, I think a more solid analysis would be in order, instead of abstract discussions. So here is a list compiled from the Wiki page on Christ myth theory which lists the main proponents of the myth theory as G. A. Wells, Alvar Ellegård, Robert M. Price, Thomas L. Thompson, Richard Carrier and Earl Doherty. I have also done other web searches.
The list makes it clear that
- "not a single academic still teaching at a major university denies the existence of Jesus."
If any editor here knows of any other academics, please enlighten me. I would like to know.
Here is the list:
- Alvar Ellegård: He was a professor of English and died in 2008.
- Robert M. Price: He has a PhD is theology and is a biblical scholar. He is said to be teaching at the "Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary", an organization not notable enough as of this writing to have a Misplaced Pages which seems to be just a website without an actual campus or actual classes, or any higher education accreditation. He also teaches at CFI Institute which does not seem to be a university of any type, and mostly teaches online courses or summer classes. Price can be considered a scholar, but he does not teach at a major institution. He acknowledges that hardly any one agrees with him.
- Thomas L. Thompson: Was a professor of theology in Sweden (now retired) and denies existence. Thompson's arguments were never accepted by the academic community at large and he worked as an interior decorator for over a decade until he found a position.
- Heh, talk about denigrating scholars. Martijn Meijering (talk) 13:19, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- I was being nice, saying interior decorator. The second paragraph of his Wiki-bio says other things. I was being nice. History2007 (talk) 13:25, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Heh, talk about denigrating scholars. Martijn Meijering (talk) 13:19, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Richard Carrier: He has a PhD, but is not an academic and does not teach at any university. Carrier's professional occupation (beyond his blog) remains unclear.
In this list there are only two clear ex-academics who deny existence: Ellegård and Thompson plus Price who is a biblical scholar and may be considered a scholar, but not an academic really. That makes 3 at best. R. Joseph Hoffmann supports Gnosticism, but is not a direct denier of existence and listed as a supporter of existence by the Misplaced Pages page on Christ myth theory.
Are there 30 scholars out there who deny existence? No. Do any of them still teach at a major institution? No. Even if Carrier is considered a scholar, that is still less than a handful of deniers, but none of these people is currently holding an academic position at a major institution.
G. A. Wells is a professor of German. He was (and is) widely acknowledged as the leader of the Christ myth theorists. Wells no longer denies the existence of Jesus. Wells did a U-turn in his last book after the evidence from the Q source documents had been explained to him.
There are also academics such as John P. Meier, Donald Akenson and Hector Avalos who have criticized the methods used in biblical studies but none of these on their own denies the existence of Jesus, and Meier is a strong supporter of existence. Paula Fredriksen considers the Christian gospels to be mostly fiction but she firmly supports the existence of Jesus. There are hardly any academics (depending on if one counts Price in or out, etc.) that deny existence and still teach in a major institution.
Then there are the popular writers generally listed as Earl Doherty, John Allegro, Acharya S, Christopher Hitchens, Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. None of these writers has a PhD, none has been an academic and Doherty and Acharya own the small publishing companies that self-publish their books. There are also a number of non-academics who write popular or self-published books to support existence, but none of these matter in terms of "academic support", either way.
So really, there is no "academic support" for the non-existence of Jesus among professors who are still teaching at major institutions. If there are a significant number of professors who deny the existence of Jesus, they must be teaching on Mars, and perhaps the Mars rover will find them soon. But there are certainly no professors teaching at Harvard, Princeton, Oxford, Cambridge, Stanford or Berkeley who deny the existence of Jesus. That seems certain.
If there are professors currently teaching at major institutions who deny the existence of Jesus, please do inform me. Thank you. History2007 (talk) 05:52, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- There's no archaeological evidence to support the historicity of Jesus Christ, a Magical Figure to do with Religion and The Bible. It does not make any difference what scholars think and believe, the evidence shows there is no evidence for a historical Christ. The Bible is a collection of contrived documents founded on religious faith. The established Church was not founded on historical provenance but rather on what people preferred to believe. Mention all these points to University scholars who BELIEVE in a historical Jesus Christ and they all remain silent. This Misplaced Pages article is a product of religious propaganda. Nittoditto (talk) 12:20, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Give me five minutes live time on television with Bart Ehrman, he will provide no answers to any of the points because the historical evidence just does not exist about Jesus Christ. I have raised these points about historicity with scholars and they remained silent on the matter. Everything exists solely on the basis of special pleading. Nittoditto (talk) 12:32, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Given that you are a new user (I presume) I would suggest a reading of WP:V. Misplaced Pages does not work on debates on TV, or personal opinions, but what sources state. And Ehrman (who is no longer a Christian) is not the only scholar who supports existence, there are many, many of others, e.g. Geza Vermes, etc.. I have a feeling Vermes would be a livelier debate, if you want to take him on... But in any case, all Wkipedi can use are "sources, not facts". WP:V explains that. History2007 (talk) 13:42, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- What scholars privately believe and what constitutes independent historical evidence are two different issues. Nittoditto (talk) 13:48, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
That is a worthwhile point to explain. What scholars "privately believe" can not be used in Misplaced Pages. A scholar may privately believe that the earth is triangular, but unless he publishes that in a reputable source it can not be used in Misplaced Pages per WP:V. Please read that policy page. Thank you. History2007 (talk) 13:51, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Scholars have indeed expressed their personal and private beliefs that Jesus Christ existed in reliable and reputable sources, and that's all they amount to. Nittoditto (talk) 13:59, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Once they have expressed it in a publication, it is a public statement, no longer private. But I will stop now. This is not a "content issue" any more, a "policy issue" per WP:V. History2007 (talk) 14:01, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I will stop as well now, since there never will be any honest and reliable Misplaced Pages article on this subject matter. Nittoditto (talk) 14:05, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- That may be true, but History2007 was correct in the argument he just made. One of the techniques we have on WP to deal with issues of bias is that of WP:NPOV. If a source makes a potentially controversial, subjective statement, we can always rephrase it as "source X says Y", which is an objective statement about someone holding an opinion. So instead of saying "the minimum wage leads to youth unemployment", we can say "economist X says that the minimum wage leads to youth unemployment".
- We don't do that if source X merely states the common position in the field in question. If challenged, we can always look for a source that supports the alleged consensus. We don't do that by counting, or by constructing an argument that some expert should be able to count, instead we rely on the criterion set by WP:RS/AC, which is a statement by an academic in the field, not about the truth of the statement, but as to the consensus in that specific field. It's not necessary that the expert agrees with the statement himself, just that he states there exists a consensus.
- The source in question may happen to know that the consensus in fact extends to other fields, but unless he happens to be an expert in those fields too, as far as WP is concerned this is insufficient evidence about a consensus in the other fields. For instance we can use an expert in homeopathy claiming a consensus among practitioners of homeopathy as sufficient evidence to state that there is in fact such a consensus.
- Whether we personally agree with the statement, or believe in homeopathy doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter if we can produce a count of proponents and opponents that appears to contradict the expert, since as far as WP is concerned mere counting isn't enough. We rely on experts on specific fields to make that determination for us. It's a different matter if the expert were to claim that physicists also agree. It may be true (at least in theory, you and I might doubt it, but since we aren't experts our opinions don't count), but since an expert on homeopathy isn't automatically an expert on physics, any claim about a consensus by physicists doesn't count. If we can find a physicist who agrees as to the consensus among physicists, then of course we can support the consensus among physicists too.
- On the other hand, if we were to find an expert in the field who explicitly denies there is a consensus, then we can't simply pick the expert we prefer and either further analysis of the sources is necessary, or we simply cannot make a statement as to consensus on WP because the experts disagree. Note that this is different from finding an expert who merely disagrees about the truth of the underlying statement, rather than an academic consensus about it. This does not disqualify the expert making the claim about consensus, not even if we can produce a hundred sources contradicting the underlying statement. Conversely, the absence of a source contradicting the underlying statement cannot be taken as evidence of a consensus, as that would amount to something even less than counting. Martijn Meijering (talk) 12:47, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- I will stop as well now, since there never will be any honest and reliable Misplaced Pages article on this subject matter. Nittoditto (talk) 14:05, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- By the way, any evidence as to what Jesus' favorite salad was? History2007 (talk) 14:09, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Not to defend the approach of Nittoditto (nor his claim), but the argument by History2007 (looking at a small, necessarily incomplete list, applying an arguably arbitrary criterion, and then generalizing from those 5 instances to the universe) is not remotely sound. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:20, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I have made no claim that the list is complete. What I ask is: does anyone else have a larger list? Is there a larger list of PhD level academics who deny existence? My comment ended with that question. If there are 30 academics who deny existence, Misplaced Pages should mention them on the Christ myth theory page. Is there a longer list? History2007 (talk) 14:25, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Let's apply the subject matter from the perspective of objective evidence, not from the personal and private beliefs of scholars with PhDs (that doesn't count for much) Nittoditto (talk) 14:25, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, but that is nonsense. To be able to evaluate historical evidence, a significant amount of specialized skill and knowledge is required. A PhD in an appropriate field is neither necessary nor sufficient for that, but it is strongly correlated with the required qualifications. If you don't understand that, it's strong evidence that you suffer from a rather severe case of Dunning-Kruger effect. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:33, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Let's apply the subject matter from the perspective of objective evidence, not from the personal and private beliefs of scholars with PhDs (that doesn't count for much) Nittoditto (talk) 14:25, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- In that case, let's start taking the theories of Professor Eisenmann seriously. Nittoditto (talk) 14:36, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Eisenman doesn't as far as I know address the existence of a consensus, either among biblical scholars or more generally among scholars of antiquity. Even if Eisenmann is right, that merely means a majority of biblical scholars is wrong about their reconstructions of the HJ (which Eisenmann doesn't deny BTW, he is not a mythicist), not that they are wrong about there being a consensus. There is nothing wrong with stating there is a consensus among biblical scholars if that consensus does exist (and we have sufficient evidence for that), even if you and I were to disagree they are correct. The consensus is a fact, and it is a useful thing to mention in the article. The problem is that the consensus is being alleged for a far wider group of scholars than is warranted by the sources. In the case of Ehrman not because he doesn't make the sweeping claim, he does, but because he is only an expert in one of the subfields in question, which isn't enough. Martijn Meijering (talk) 13:02, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- In that case, let's start taking the theories of Professor Eisenmann seriously. Nittoditto (talk) 14:36, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
I marked Nittoditto's user page as a sock puppet of indef-blocked User:Lung salad, and he did not even bother to deny it. Just too familiar. History2007 (talk) 15:19, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Two-Fold Presentation Perspective
Misplaced Pages articles should be written from the following two-fold perspective: 1) providing current scholarly opinion and scholarly position and, 2) the nature of the evidence pertinent to the relevant subject matter. Thus for this article it can be presented that 99.9% of scholars believe in a historical Jesus Christ, while at the same time presenting there is no evidence for a historical Jesus Christ, providing relevant details (many of which are not found in Misplaced Pages articles as of today, 28 September 2012. Nittoditto (talk) 12:48, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- As it happens, the article currently states: "No documents written by Jesus exist, and no specific archaeological remnants are directly attributed to him." However, it seems that you are aware of the fact that as you said "99.9% of scholars believe in a historical Jesus". So I agree with that part. And the article states that "few modern scholars now want to overlook the archaeological discoveries that clarify the nature of life in Galilee and Judea during the time of Jesus." So archeology is a current interest among scholars, but not led them to deny existence. So Misplaced Pages can not hint that that issue results in non-exitence since the same applies to many other historical figures. History2007 (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- There is no archaeological evidence to support the historical existence of Jesus, so it's a reduntant reference about archeological discoveries that do not offer any proof of existence. Nittoditto (talk) 13:40, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Per WP:V, the two of us can not debate this. What you need is to find WP:RS sources that state that "the lack of archeological evidence disproves the existence of Jesus". Once you have found those reliable sources, Misplaced Pages can include it, not before. History2007 (talk) 13:47, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I think the issue here is that Nittoditto is trying to force the round peg of historical study through the square hole of the scientific method. The historicity of figures is not determined solely through archaeological evidence.Farsight001 (talk) 14:24, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- This case involves a Magical Religious Figure appearing within the context of Apocalyptic Judaic Eschatology. Not within sober historical chronicle. Nittoditto (talk) 14:31, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I think Nittoditto may well be an old acquaintance... But I can not be bothered to do SPI now... History2007 (talk) 14:28, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- You'd have a point, Nittoditto, if anything you just said was even remotely accurate or applicable, but it isn't. I feel as though you are missing the point at the most fundamental level. Farsight001 (talk) 14:58, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- The Bible is not a contrived Religious Book built on faith and Jesus Christ was not a Magical Religious Figure. Nittoditto (talk) 15:03, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- That argument was so familiar, I marked Nittoditto's page as a sockpuppet... I am ready bet on that now. History2007 (talk) 15:00, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Now you're getting it, Ditto. True or false, the bible is not "contrived", nor was it built on faith. Jesus Christ is not "magical". These are nothing but tag lines anti-theists have used for years to get under the skin of and generally piss off believers. They have no realistic merit and are just plain inaccurate descriptors.Farsight001 (talk) 15:08, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Now you are presenting yourself honestly, as you truly are, and what the fabric of this article truly represents. Nittoditto (talk) 15:10, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I have dealt with Nittoditto before. He is a sock puppet of indef-blocked user Lung salad, and has not even denied the puppet placed on his user page. He will come back with a new account in a few days and say the same things again. History2007 (talk) 15:12, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Winning the Argument
By presenting opinions and theories as facts and by cheating. Nittoditto (talk) 15:07, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, you are doing those things, but I'd be willing to bet that you and Charlie Sheen are the only ones who actually think that constitutes winning.Farsight001 (talk) 15:09, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- This article is built on the platform of religious faith, as are the opinions held by those scholars who thinly design their objectives as "historical arguments", the definitive study of this subject matter has yet to be presented. Nittoditto (talk) 15:13, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- So the only remaining question is: what is your next user name going to be? History2007 (talk) 15:15, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yet another dodge. Whenever discussion material evaporates, change the subject matter. Better still, become Matthew Hopkins Witchfinder General. Nittoditto (talk) 15:18, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Why are you bringing this argument here and not the Historicity of Jesus where it belongs? Marauder40 (talk) 15:19, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
He may well bring it to a that page with a new puppet user name there in a few days...History2007 (talk) 15:23, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I take that back. It seems that he has already been there and was zapped for it. History2007 (talk) 16:40, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- This is the only strategy available to this person because their argument has evaporated (if they had any argument to begin with). Their only course available to engage in discussions is by obliterating those they discuss with. A Crusade. Nittoditto (talk) 15:27, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I replied to the person who introduced the section "No academic still teaching at a major university denies the existence of Jesus" - I did not begin it (if you were addressing me). Nittoditto (talk) 15:21, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- This article is built on the platform of scholarship and research and reliable sources, not faith. If it were built on faith, it would be devoid of citations, but clearly, it is not. Furthermore, much of our scholars we cite are irreligious, many of them even atheist, not that their faith is something wikipedia gives a shit about. No one's faith is a factor in whether or not they are a reliable source for information here. Nor do they "thinly design" their objectives as historical arguments. This is their profession, their career - what they do for a living. It is their job to present historical arguments and they are well respected for their expertise, which is exactly why we use them as sources - they actually have the definitive study of the subject matter. Many of them helped write it all. If you don't like this, then you have a problem not with the information presented here, but rather with the way an encyclopedia functions, which, in that case, I can only recommend you leave all your property behind and go live of the land in a forest, otherwise, you will find yourself perpetually pissed off at the way society functions.Farsight001 (talk) 15:33, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- So when these "irreligious" scholars are challenged, why the silence? Nittoditto (talk) 15:35, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Look Lung salad, you used to say "all scholars are wafflers", "scholars do not matter", "scholars are dismissed", etc. You have said the same things before, never understood WP:V, and not gotten anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Take a hint, you will get blocked again if someone bothers to do a SPI. History2007 (talk) 15:40, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yet another dodge, their argument has certainly evaporated. Nittoditto (talk) 15:43, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I corresponded with the late F F Bruce during the 1970s in response to one of his books and he failed to respond to any of my points, I still have his letters Nittoditto (talk) 15:46, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Because the challenge is without merit. Because you have no WP:RS for this challenge, no WP:RS to support your notion. So even if the challenge had merit, we couldn't do anything about it. If reliable sources tell us that the sky is red, we report that the sky is red, despite the fact that we can see clearly that it is blue. Get it now?Farsight001 (talk) 15:54, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Been away from the Internet for the past three days. A quick review of the past several thousand words generated over that period above leads me to two questions....
- 1. Why do (some?) Christians feel the need to prove the historical existence of Jesus, when the whole thing is a matter of faith?
- 2. How many non-Christian scholars' opinions have been ascertained? HiLo48 (talk) 16:54, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- To the first question, this is not a discussion forum. We are here to try to improve the article, not muse about why Christians should or should not care about the historicity of Jesus.
- To the second question, read above. This has been gone over in detail already. Furthermore, as already explained, the religious affiliation of the scholars we reference is irrelevant. It matters only that they are WP:RS. There is no rule, policy, or guideline that in any way restricts use of a source based on their personal beliefs.Farsight001 (talk) 16:58, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, there is no Wikipolicy which prohibits the use of references by Muslim scholars on Islam pages, Buddhist scholars on Buddhism pages, Jewish scholars on Judaism pages, etc. And the other point is that believing the gospel narratives about miracles, etc. may be a matter of faith, but scholars such as Paula Fredriksen and Geza Vermes who have renounced Christianity still defend existence. And atheists such as Wells and Dawkins no longer deny it. So supporting existence is not a matter of faith but historical analysis. History2007 (talk) 17:15, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- But what's the point of "proving" it? And "no longer deny" proves nothing. HiLo48 (talk) 17:21, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, there is no Wikipolicy which prohibits the use of references by Muslim scholars on Islam pages, Buddhist scholars on Buddhism pages, Jewish scholars on Judaism pages, etc. And the other point is that believing the gospel narratives about miracles, etc. may be a matter of faith, but scholars such as Paula Fredriksen and Geza Vermes who have renounced Christianity still defend existence. And atheists such as Wells and Dawkins no longer deny it. So supporting existence is not a matter of faith but historical analysis. History2007 (talk) 17:15, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- To Farsight's first response above, I await your condemnation of every other post above from the past three days that expressed an opinion.
- To the second, if a claimed reliable source does not consider the thoughts of ALL the world's scholars, Christian or otherwise, it's not too reliable, is it? HiLo48 (talk) 17:19, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Who said it does not consider the "publications/statements of all scholars". They say "virtually all scholars", not "virtually all left handed scholars". As for the "thoughts of ALL the world's scholars" that is of course impossible to do without access to their private thoughts. They may think the earth is flat in their thoughts but if they do not say that in print, how can anyone know what they think sans hypnotism? But seriously, one can not use the unpublished thoughts of scholars, and the only way is in terms of what they say or write in public, etc. As I said above, if there are 20 academics who deny existence, I would like to know who they are, and the page on Christ myth theory should include their names. But that is just an informational issue, the main issue is that there are no sources that state "a good number of scholars support non-existence". We have never seen a source that even comes close to saying that. History2007 (talk) 17:38, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- LOL. First you make a silly, one-sided demand for names from just one side of the discussion, then you ask for proof of a negative. Philosophically, that cannot be done. Your unthinking bias here is clearly on display. And the expression "virtually all" is classic WP:WEASEL wording. Can you provide a precise definition of the term? HiLo48 (talk) 17:41, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I do not think it is silly to state as a confirmation of the statement that there hardly any scholars who support non-existence. Do you have sources that say there are? If so, please provide your sources. And again, access to the private thoughts of people is just impossible, of course. As for definition of "virtually all" please see a dictionary, of course, or various cases. History2007 (talk) 17:53, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Stop asking for proof of a negative. And please read WP:WEASEL. (It might also be good if you actually read my posts properly. You're a very hard man to truly discuss things with. Sadly, I typically find that with hard core believers.) HiLo48 (talk) 17:54, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I see no reason not to ask for sources. Sources are the bedrock of Misplaced Pages. I have read the page on weasel, I have done a few edits in the past. That is not a weasel word, as evidenced by the hundreds and hundreds uses on Misplaced Pages and it does not appear on the weasel page. That is clear. History2007 (talk) 17:58, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- History2007 did not ask for proof of a negative. He asked if you have sources that say there are many scholars who support non-existence. That is a logical positive, not a negative. Asking for proof that there are no sources would be the logical negative, but that request was not made by him.Farsight001 (talk) 19:51, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct, of course. History2007 (talk) 19:56, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- History2007 did not ask for proof of a negative. He asked if you have sources that say there are many scholars who support non-existence. That is a logical positive, not a negative. Asking for proof that there are no sources would be the logical negative, but that request was not made by him.Farsight001 (talk) 19:51, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- By the way, in the unlikely case that he meant do not ask for "proof that Jesus did not exist" (as proof of the negative) one should comment that those proofs are common, e.g. Galileo's proof that very tall humans never existed because weight goes up by cube and bone strength by square, etc. But that is probably not what he meant. History2007 (talk) 20:07, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- History2007 asks for many things, some possible, some impossible. It's common for the argument of someone whose position is based on faith rather than rational analysis to leap around like that. Good points in opposition are simply deflected and the subject changed. I have made my rational points here. Keep thinking up new ones for your own irrational position. (Not an insult. Faith is, by definition, irrational.) I shall part ways for the moment. HiLo48 (talk) 23:02, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- WP:WEASEL is misapplied here. The sources cited say "the majority of scholars accept the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth." It would be weasel words (and OR) to take a few scholar saying they think Jesus existed and use that to say the majority of scholars believe Jesus existed, but that's not the case here. If this article is guilty of WP:WEASEL, then so is the Evolution article for the line "Biologists agree that descent with modification is one of the most reliably established facts in science" (citing only one source, no less). If RSs say "all/most scholars accept this," we have to say that all/most scholars accept this unless a contrary RS is presented. History2007 did not ask for proof for a negative, he asked for a contrary source.
- HiLo48, actually read the article and check out the sources before making honestly rather insulting assertions about other users (you rewrapped Lung Salad's "History2007 is Christian and therefore incapable of reason" attacks in a more polite package, but it's still the same bollocks). You are the one who has deflected and changed the subject here. A contrary source is asked for, you say that there's no way to prove a negative. Contrary sources are differentiated from proof for a negative, and you dismiss an editor and the possibility of rational discussion with them for what almost amounts to an ad hominem attack. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:23, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- Stop deflecting the fucking argument!! I was commenting on History2007's use of the words "virtually all". (17:38, 28 September 2012 above.) Now you're telling me I should be commenting on something else, precisely the behaviour I described for History2007. My point is made. Go read some books on logic and consistency. HiLo48 (talk) 23:31, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- History2007 asks for many things, some possible, some impossible. It's common for the argument of someone whose position is based on faith rather than rational analysis to leap around like that. Good points in opposition are simply deflected and the subject changed. I have made my rational points here. Keep thinking up new ones for your own irrational position. (Not an insult. Faith is, by definition, irrational.) I shall part ways for the moment. HiLo48 (talk) 23:02, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Wow, you didn't even read my post, did you? (Seeing how you initially had me confused with History2007, I'm pretty sure of it). WP:Weasel no more applies to "virtually all" here than "Biologists agree" does in the Evolution article, because the sources themselves say "all/most scholars think this." Argument directly confronted and shot down, not deflected. If we are going to change it, we need sources contradicting that wording. Counter-argument presented, which you have ignored. Get over your WP:IDHT and accept that your argument was wrong. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:41, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
- I heard, and I know you're wrong. "Virtually all" is WP:WEASEL. Plain and simple. HiLo48 (talk) 01:04, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Then go over to Evolution, and place weasel word tags next to "Biologists agree..." It's no different. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:14, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- This is getting bizarre. Firstly, as Ian.thomson said, the statement on "virtually all" scholars of antiquity is based, almost literally, on a reliable source. Thus, "virtually all" is not a weasel word but a statement explicitly in line with the requirements of WP:RS/AC. Secondly, History2007 is not asking for proof of any negative - he's asking for proof of the existence of a significant minority of scholars disputing Jesus' existence - such as a reliable source stating, "There is a significant number of scholars who doubt Jesus ever existed." How is that a negative? Such sources apparently don't exist, and therefore we need not couch our sourced statement about the vast majority accepting Jesus' existence in qualifiers, but that's something else entirely. I could rant on about various other points, but most of them already have been made by History2007, Ian.Thompson and Farsight001. I'll just say that I'm much less sure than History2007 about Nittoditto's status as a sockpuppet (I'd expect Lung salad would by now have flown into a rage about Catholic bias and censorship), but that doesn't mean Nittoditto's arguments hold any more water: He correctly pointed out that we should cover the evidence about Jesus' existence, and we already do. So far, so good. But his claims about the "Magical Religious Figure" ignore what the article currently says on existence and are a straw man (unless he holds that being a "Jewish teacher from Galilee in Roman Judaea who was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect, Pontius Pilate" is the same as being a "Magical Religious Figure"). Huon (talk) 01:20, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- The SPI conclusion was that Lung salad's check is stale, because Lung salad edited too long ago. It does not say if he was or not. But let me note that he did not deny being a puppet. FYI, there were a couple of other clues that he is not aware of upfront that made me recognize him very quickly, but I will not type what they are here, of course.
- Regarding the discussion with HiLo on the "virtually all" that is a really peripheral issue, for it does not even discuss the substance of the discussion, namely that in effect, scholars who deny existence can be counted on one hand, with a few fingers to spare. That statement seems to be opposed by no source we have ever seen, and supported in multiple sources. History2007 (talk) 05:33, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
| Short typo discussion, resolved |
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From the Year of Death section: Isaac Newton was one of the firs astronomers to estimate the date of the crucifixion Anaheyla (talk) 23:50, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
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Does anyone dispute that there are "less than a handful" of scholars of antiquity who oppose the existence of Jesus?
To get back to the point, let us clarify the following issue:
- Are there any sources whatsoever that dispute that there are "less than a handful" of scholars of antiquity who oppose the existence of Jesus?
- Is any editor aware of a list of more than a handful of modern scholars of antiquity who continue to dispute the existence of Jesus?
- I for one am not aware of more than a handful, if that many, and of those Davies only argues that mythicism should be taken seriously as a possibility. Price goes further, but only a little because while he believes the case for mythicism is stronger than historicy, historicity remains a serious possibility. He is fond of saying things like "who the heck knows though", treating the matter as unknowable to the degree we might want to know it.
- Note that I'm not challenging the truth of the statement about "scholars of antiquity" here (although I do doubt it), I'm challenging its verifiability. Martijn Meijering (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- There may be a confusion here about WP:CON being only an internal policy, as stated above. It is not an external policy, and does not apply to academic statements, as above. History2007 (talk) 12:43, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Fine, I'll go and find the relevant policy page. Note that at long last you have finally started to reply to my substantive arguments. This is the sort of argument I was asking for. Not conceding the point yet, but I'll go and have a look. Martijn Meijering (talk) 13:29, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- There may be a confusion here about WP:CON being only an internal policy, as stated above. It is not an external policy, and does not apply to academic statements, as above. History2007 (talk) 12:43, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I think that is the central issue, and I have seen no sources that dispute that hardly any Myth theory scholars that dispute existence remain nor have I seen a longer list of Myth theory scholars who deny existence anywhere in the literature, or on Misplaced Pages.
- Agreed, and I wish that was all the article said. Martijn Meijering (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- And your source for that would be...? History2007 (talk) 12:43, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- My source for what? Martijn Meijering (talk) 13:15, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- For "I wish that was all the article said." History2007 (talk) 13:21, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Huh, don't you mean you want me to address how I think the article says more than that? I don't need a source for expressing a wish.Martijn Meijering (talk) 13:31, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- For "I wish that was all the article said." History2007 (talk) 13:21, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- My source for what? Martijn Meijering (talk) 13:15, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- And your source for that would be...? History2007 (talk) 12:43, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
So please let me ask again: Is there a "source"? Is there a long list? Not that I can see here, or anywhere. History2007 (talk) 06:09, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Wow, could you put your POV more blatantly on display? Let me first assure you, you can remain a good Christian even if you can't prove that Jesus existed. God just wants you to believe it. So don't be so desperate to prove it. And you're doing it again. You seem to want to go down the path of saying "Because nobody among the handful of editors watching here can show me such a list, no such list exists." Sorry, such a double negative approach is not a valid way to use reliable sources. If, however, you found a truly impartial, independent, reliable source saying that 98% (or whatever) of objective scholars say that Jesus existed, all would be fine. But you won't find such a source. Impartial and independent would mean not Christian and already biased, as you are. HiLo48 (talk) 06:20, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Let me provide a suggestion here: focus on content, not the other editors. Now, I did not employ the type of logic you suggest about the list. Trust me, I used to be a logician. We do have sources that say that virtually all scholars of antiquity support it.
- The reason I mentioned the list and asked for opposing sources is that if those scholars had been "way off the mark", someone in the opposing camp would have written: "Ehrman/VanVoorst/etc. are mad, because scholars A, B, C, D ... Q and myself oppose it." No one in the opposing camp has stated that. So any attempt at suggesting that Ehrman/VanVoorst/etc. are ignorant or biased will hence be set back because such arguments to paint them as ignorant/biased will be seen as "source free" and based on personal opinion.
- In any debate among scholars, there are always (I mean always) opposing sides. And the opposing scholars on each side criticize the views of the others. If the assessment of Ehrman/VanVoorst/etc. had been off the mark, there would have been screams among the opposition. Now, there is silence among the tiny opposition. Think of this way if someone writes "virtually all scholars agree that there is no global warming", would that not create screams among the opposition? Would you not find opposing sources? But just accusing the author of being biased because he may be against global warming has no basis here, in case all pro-warming people have already conceded. That is the case here.
- And as a side note, interestingly, you did not provide "any sources" to dispute the statement of the overview by Ehrman/VanVoorst/etc. History2007 (talk) 08:07, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- This everlasting and boring debate continues to continue because of the deliberate blurring of two completely different issues: Issue 1) Was there a 1st century Jew named Jesus/Jeshua/? who preached a semi-Jewish message around Nazareth/Jerusalem and got himself executed by the Romans, vs Issue 2) Was there a 1st century incarnated divinity working miracles around Nazareth/Jerusalem who deliberately sacrificed himself to ransom mankind from death and bring them/us eternal paradise? "Virtually all" scholars who bother to hold an opinion on the first issue seem to support the existence of the Jewish preacher, but a large number of serious scholars actively deny the validity of the second issue. It however seems to comfort some people to erroneously conflate scholarly support for the first issue with support for the second issue. If the article could be allowed to clearly distinguish between the two issues, we could all move on. Wdford (talk)
- (ec, and apparent partial mind meld) I think the question is somewhat ill-posed, because "the existence of Jesus" can be interpreted to mean anything from "the existence of a person named Yeoshua (or variants) in palestine around the the beginning of the first millenium" to "the existence of an apocalyptic Jewish preacher baptised by John the Baptist and executed by the Romans" to "the existence of the Son of God, born of a virgin, wandering the Earth (and the waters), turning water into wine (now that's a useful parlour trick!) and the whole shebang". The first is not seriously disputed by anybody, the second is plausible but likely wrong in some aspects, the third is very very implausible. Either Jesus is a complete literary invention, or there is a historical core onto which later Christian stories have been grafted. Most scholars think there is such a core, but they differ quite a bit about the size of this core. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:59, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I totally agree with Wdford and Stephan Schulz on this. The issue is at times confused by readers who assume "existence of Jesus" means "divinity of Jesus" or the "accuracy of Biblical narratives". Virtually all scholars agree that a certain person called Jesus/Yeoshua walked the streets of Jerusalem. Do they agree that he was divine? Not at all. Do they even agree that he called any disciples? Not at all: some think he existed but never had disciples. Do they agree that he performed even one miracle (or magic act of illusion)? Not at all. Do they agree that he even said "one of the parables claimed in the Bible"? Not at all. So forget divinity, beyond walking, baptism and crucifixion scholars agree on nothing else. But they do agree on the existence part as a separate issue from divinity as both Wdford and Stephan Schulz explained. History2007 (talk) 09:32, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- As an interesting side note, to confirm the theme of the statements above, various scholars reject the names of the disciples from a historical perspective and some think there were 12 of them, but that no one knows their names via historical analysis. Some scholars do not agree that there were 12 disciples, etc. but accept the existence of some disciples, etc. Others hold that there were never any disciples. So historicity is a separate issue from biblical interpretation and scholars distinguish the issue of historicity from the discussion of biblical narrative. History2007 (talk) 09:49, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
If this was another article, some behavior here would not be accepted
The evolution article outright says "Biologists agree (evolution is a fact)" without saying which biologists, but "(all competent) biologists."
- If someone came into that article and said "not all biologists agree," we'd ask for a source demonstrating that a notable number of (competent and respected) biologists disagree. - No such source has been provided
- If someone said that "(all) biologists" is weasel, we'd point out that the source says "all biologists." - We have 6 sources, and they're not being accepted by a the lunatic fringe who refuses to provide sources for their position.
- If someone said that the article was being controlled by atheists or agnostics, and that the atheists or agnostics were incapable of a discussion about the bigger picture, we'd dismiss them as a bigot. - And yet, NittoDitto and HiLo48 have not been told to quit attacking other editors.
- If someone ignored/dismissed the Christians in the discussion, or the Christians cited in the evolution article, to continue to push their previous "point," they'd be considered tendentious. - Only 2 of the 6 sources cited are by Christians, only half (at most) of those in this discussion ID as Christian.
- Anyone joining this someone in this behavior would be rebuked. - And yet HiLo48 continues to miss the point.
Why is all of this being allowed here? It shouldn't be, it's the same situation.
HiLo48, you've previously been reasonable in other articles, but you're letting your righteous defense against American conservative fundamentalist POVs turn into a bigoted anti-Christian POV. Bring in a source demonstrating that a notable number of respectable scholars believe Jesus did not exist, or shut up and leave. Otherwise, your insistence that History2007 is acting out of POV, especially when a number of non-Christian editors are agreeing with him, is nothing but a bigoted attack.
This discussion did not need to go on this long. NittoDitto should have been dismissed as a WP:FRINGE POV-pusher WP:SPA, and pot-- I mean HiLo48, should not have let his personal beliefs blind him to the possibility that editors of other beliefs might be capable of properly editing within policies and guidelines. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:18, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- Right, but this is not "another article" - some standards may be different here. And what HiLo has said is nowhere as bad as our old friend Lung salad has said in the past and Nittoditto has repeated now. But I would note that both Wdford (who opposes the bible) and Stephan Schulz (who is perhaps the middle ground) have been totally logical on the issues. And the discussion with Martijn Meijering may just be converging now. So all is not lost, and logic may yet prevail. I would shrug off HiLo's comments so we will not have to waste 3 days on WP:ANI - but you are right that he should ease off. What I did learn here that was fascinating was the Dunning-Kruger diagnosis of Nittodito - I had never heard of that, but it does explain a lot about expert dismissal. So I guess Misplaced Pages is educational in the end. History2007 (talk) 14:34, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that everyone else has been reasonable, and I thank them for it. I've mentioned whose behavior I found unacceptable. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:38, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Evolution is treated as fact in more peer-reviewed science journals than you can shake a stick at. As far as I can tell, the existence of Jesus is not treated as fact by any peer-reviewed journal of history at all. It certainly isn't common. The sources here are popular books, and most of them are Christian publishing houses. Bart Ehrman's training is in divinity and Bible colleges, and he is not a professor of history. Humanpublic (talk) 18:38, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
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