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:::::This is a complex source since there is a variety of items including Woodward-self-published books, Woodward interviews published in other journals, book reviews of Woodward publications. For the purposes of notability, all of the references to 'tanka prose' are the end product of Woodward (expressed directly by him or repeated by others in credit to him or through his publishing). Woodward is not independent of tanka prose, rather central to it. Thus as a group it fails 1.4 (independence). The sources individually may pass or fail different notability criteria but too complex to untangle since they all fail 1.4. -- ] (]) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC) | :::::This is a complex source since there is a variety of items including Woodward-self-published books, Woodward interviews published in other journals, book reviews of Woodward publications. For the purposes of notability, all of the references to 'tanka prose' are the end product of Woodward (expressed directly by him or repeated by others in credit to him or through his publishing). Woodward is not independent of tanka prose, rather central to it. Thus as a group it fails 1.4 (independence). The sources individually may pass or fail different notability criteria but too complex to untangle since they all fail 1.4. -- ] (]) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
::::::You can call a white dog black as often as you like but the dog will still be white. POD, like old-fashioned job printing, is a manufacturing process; both are for-hire contractors to commercial and small press literary houses, to institutions (universities) and self-published individuals. The test of self-publishing, as common definition and the Misplaced Pages guidelines agree, is whether or not the author directly pays a second party to publish his work. A book or article that is not self-published follows this pattern: ''Author A submits to editor/publisher B who (without a fee from the author) accepts and contracts the printing service to POD/Jobprinter C.'' This pattern applies to Random House, Princeton University and to MET Press (as well as its journal, ''Modern English Tanka''). The concerted effort to marginalize the writings here discussed as self-published, despite plain evidence to the contrary, is unsettling. If you were to take this discussion outside of its present cloistered confines and place it, say, at a PEN International Congress, an Independent Book Publishers Association Conference or a Council of Literary Magazines and Presses Conference, the remarks made here with respect to self-publishing would be met with incredulity, if not open laughter. | |||
::::::I’ll also have to take issue with Stalwart’s assertion that the source being discussed here ''“invented" the style in question''. We’re not dealing with a literary style, first, but with a literary form; the many practitioners of the form in question have individual styles. The larger point, however, is this silly claim that the form in question was one person’s ''invention''. Like the somewhat desperate recitation of the mantra ''self-publishing'', the facts are simply not in accord with Stalwart’s assertion. If Woodward invented anything, it was not a literary form but a descriptive phrase to identify it. This is clear from his “Introduction” to the ''Tanka Prose Anthology'': “Japanese criticism, ancient and modern, offers no comprehensive term that might encompass the many forms and styles that the wedding of tanka and prose admits. Instead, the terminology employed in the scholarly literature is form-specific, addressing not the genus but the individual species…. The first problem to address in defining tanka prose…is nomenclature. Whereas Japanese waka practice and literary criticism provide no precedent, the analogy of tanka plus prose to the latter development of haibun does. The term haibun, when applied to a literary composition, most commonly signifies haiku plus prose “written in the spirit of haiku.” Haiku prose or haikai prose would be an apt English equivalent of the Japanese word, haibun. Upon the same grounds, tanka prose becomes a reasonable term to apply to literary specimens that incorporate tanka plus prose….” That the form precedes his coined term is clear from the ''independently published'' record; the article here proposed for deletion and the anthology present numerous works that pre-date the Woodward source and that were published wholly independent of him. For these reasons, I disagree with the assessment of Stalwart and Green Cardamom that this source fails 1.3 and 1.4.] (]) 04:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::*(2) Lucky, Bob (Editor). (July 2011) (the other Bob Lucky source is a Woodward source) | :::*(2) Lucky, Bob (Editor). (July 2011) (the other Bob Lucky source is a Woodward source) | ||
:::::Again, most of the sources cited for this work come directly from Misplaced Pages (note ]), but more specifically are the same Woodward "references" above. Aside from the fact that copy-pasting references from WP wouldn't be considered particularly scholarly, the site in question is essentially a ] with "guest editors" comprised mostly of the same small group of people cited by Woodward. For all of those reasons I contend this isn't really a reliable source. Fails 2.2 and 2.4 of your matrix. ] ] 00:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC) | :::::Again, most of the sources cited for this work come directly from Misplaced Pages (note ]), but more specifically are the same Woodward "references" above. Aside from the fact that copy-pasting references from WP wouldn't be considered particularly scholarly, the site in question is essentially a ] with "guest editors" comprised mostly of the same small group of people cited by Woodward. For all of those reasons I contend this isn't really a reliable source. Fails 2.2 and 2.4 of your matrix. ] ] 00:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
:::::Has some independence but Lucky Bob also has connections to Woodward. According to ] (footnote #4): "Works produced by the subject, ''or those with a strong connection to them,'' are unlikely to be strong evidence of notability." Concerned with reliable source it's uncertain what vetting if any was done for this paper. Since 'literary genre' is a scholarly topic we can expect to have at least some "reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses." (see ]). Fail 2.2 and 2.4 -- ] (]) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC) | :::::Has some independence but Lucky Bob also has connections to Woodward. According to ] (footnote #4): "Works produced by the subject, ''or those with a strong connection to them,'' are unlikely to be strong evidence of notability." Concerned with reliable source it's uncertain what vetting if any was done for this paper. Since 'literary genre' is a scholarly topic we can expect to have at least some "reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses." (see ]). Fail 2.2 and 2.4 -- ] (]) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
::::::Again, before being able to discuss notability, I’m called upon, by the preceding comments, to first address points of misapprehension or misrepresentation of fact. Stalwart states unequivocally that (a) ''the site in question is essentially a blog'', and (b) that it has ''“guest editors” comprised mostly of the same small group of people cited by Woodward''. The site, in fact, is the online home of a hardcopy journal, ''Atlas Poetica''. The guest editors are independent of the journal proper and they edit only those special features found . I made a quick count and found that 12 guest editors are listed there. Most can be demonstrated to have little or no connection with this first source. | |||
::::::Cardamom’s comments raise two other problems. He insists that ''literary genre is a scholarly topic'' which, indeed, it is. But genre is first and foremost a ''literary topic'', like questions of literary form, and the writers of said forms, and not scholars, are the first persons to encounter this topic and to struggle with its definition. I say this to insist upon what I believe is an important point: that in discussions of living or contemporary literature, as over-and-against historical literature, those writers engaged in the form are the first witnesses and first scholars, if you will. The user who proposed the article on tanka prose for deletion consistently confounded these matters, insisting upon judging a modern English literary phenomenon by criteria drawn from Japanese scholarship. Writing communities, whether or not scholars are alive to the fact, tend to be relatively small, so much so that most parties, large and small, have some acquaintance. One might look only to the history of American poetry, for example, and review the complex of personal relationships between Ezra Pound, William Carlos Williams, Marianne Moore, and H.D. or the similar web later between members of the Beat Generation. For these reasons, it should not be surprising that writers who share common goals, such as those involved in tanka prose, may know each other just as do (and I apologize for the shocking comparison) the fellow professors of a university’s English Department. I offer these remarks to explain why I believe that Cardamom’s citation of ] and ] are inaccurately applied in this instance. Therefore, I dissent from the opinion of Stalwart and Cardamom above and assert that the source passes muster of 2.2 and 2.4.] (]) 04:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::*(3) Prime, Patricia. Modern English Tanka V3, N1 | :::*(3) Prime, Patricia. Modern English Tanka V3, N1 | ||
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:::::I think it might fail 2.4 because in the paper Patricia mentions a connection to Woodward. It also fails 2.2 since it's not academically vetted and we are dealing with a scholarly topic (]). Not every source must be strictly academic but we need at least some evidence of the genre's acceptance in the academic world. 2.1 might also be a problem but I will leave that open. So fails 2.2, 2.4 and maybe 2.1-- ] (]) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC) | :::::I think it might fail 2.4 because in the paper Patricia mentions a connection to Woodward. It also fails 2.2 since it's not academically vetted and we are dealing with a scholarly topic (]). Not every source must be strictly academic but we need at least some evidence of the genre's acceptance in the academic world. 2.1 might also be a problem but I will leave that open. So fails 2.2, 2.4 and maybe 2.1-- ] (]) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
::::::Stalwart, above, seems to have confused the Kunschke source in German below and the Prime article in ''Modern English Tanka'' here under discussion. That is the only sense I could make of his statement that the PDF version of a printed journal (MET) was a blog. Again, we face the same misrepresentation of fact, viz., that an article by Author A accepted by Editor B is somehow self-published and thereby disqualified; that the author Prime is acquainted with the first source (Elvenscout goes so far as to claim that she has ''interviewed Woodward on several occasions''; one occasion is cited in the references to the article; I challenge E. to offer ''evidence'' to support his hyperbole) and is thereby disqualified. And we have again what I take to be an unreasonable expectation, that is, that a literary topic’s proper authority is academic scholarship as over-and-against the writings of poets and literary critics. It should be obvious, from my remarks, that I’m in the minority and dissent from the above opinions on the issue of notability.] (]) 04:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
:::*(4) at TankaNetz | :::*(4) at TankaNetz | ||
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:::::Source has some independence but also connections to Woodward. According to ] (footnote #4): "Works produced by the subject, ''or those with a strong connection to them,'' are unlikely to be strong evidence of notability." It also has the same issue of reliability since this is an academic topic and there is no clear scholarly vetting process through peer review or submission to "well-regarded academic presses" (]). Fails 5.2 and 5.4 -- ] (]) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC) | :::::Source has some independence but also connections to Woodward. According to ] (footnote #4): "Works produced by the subject, ''or those with a strong connection to them,'' are unlikely to be strong evidence of notability." It also has the same issue of reliability since this is an academic topic and there is no clear scholarly vetting process through peer review or submission to "well-regarded academic presses" (]). Fails 5.2 and 5.4 -- ] (]) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC) | ||
::::::The characterization by Stalwart of the author of this item as ''a blogger who, in this instance, has turned his hand to writing a slightly-more-scholarly style of essay'' is deserving of contempt and has no place in this discussion. Beyond that, Stalwart chants his tired refrain (''self-publishing'') and spices that with further evidence of his bias by placing words like “sources” and “authors” in quotation marks. His clear attempts at character assassination are self-evident. Beyond this venom, he says nothing coherent or persuasive about notability. I offered my reasons above, under Lucky, item #2, for dissenting from Cardamom’s specific application of ] and ] to these items. I disagree for the same reasons here.] (]) 04:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:23, 5 October 2012
Tanka prose
- Tanka prose (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Article discusses an obscure neologism without citing any reliable sources. It was apparently created to promote said neologism. Does not meet WP:N. Describes an obscure modern poetry form/movement, and all the sources cited are primary sources, written by members of the small, apparently non-notable movement in question. Article itself fails to establish the notability of its subject-matter, and since it only cites primary sources is apparently original research. Appears to have been substantially edited by only one user. Said user, when repeatedly prompted, refused to cite reliable, secondary sources, but has admitted elsewhere that it is unlikely any such sources exist. I have tried extensively to discuss this issue on the article talk page with said user, but have only met with personal attacks. The minor literary movement described in the article clearly does not meet Misplaced Pages standards of notability, and even the primary sources it cites are poorly-researched and make ridiculous claims that the movement has existed since eighth-century Japan. elvenscout742 (talk) 12:54, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
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- Weak Delete. AfD's in the end are simple, you just need two independent reliable sources that discuss the topic in a non-trivial manner. I went through all the sources and found the following:
- Preminger, Alex and Brogan, T.V.F. The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1993, p. 981. I went to Amazon and did a "Look Inside" search and it came back with 0 hits for "Tanka prose". Am I missing something?
- Woodward, Jeffrey, Ed. The Tanka Prose Anthology. Baltimore, MD: Modern English Tanka Press, 2008, pp. 13-14 - this is self-published on LuLu (can't link direct due to LuLu blacklist) and thus it fails WP:RS. The journal Modern English Tanka is also self-published.
- "Tarlton, Charles" - published in Haibun Today which is a journal published by.. "Woodward, Jeffrey" (self-published), not a RS.
- The article by "Everett, Claire" in Atlas Poetica is an interview with "Woodward, Jeffrey", who wrote the self-published material above.
- "Lucky, Bob" in Atlas Poetica - Independent author, independent source (I believe). Discusses tanka prose and community in depth.
- These two sources in the ref section: Santa Fe, Simply Haiku - they are both "Woodward, Jeffrey" articles. Simply Haiku is another interview with Woodward; Santa Fe is an edition with Woodward as guest editor.
- Source by "Goldstein, Sanford" and "Smyth, Florida Watts". These books were published before the term Tanka prose existed or was in common use (I believe). It appears to be cites to poems the article is considering as Tanka prose, appears to be possible Original Research.
- Sources by "Reichhold, Jane", "Kimmel, Larry" and "Ward, Linda Jeannette". These appear to be links to some poets but unclear if these sources use the term "Tanka prose" or more importantly establish the notability of the term with significant discussion of the term.
- Based on the above, the "Lucky, Bob" Atlas Poetica article seems to be the strongest for AfD purposes. I'm concerned by the vast number of sources that come back to "Woodward, Jeffrey" in one way or another, who is a self-publisher, and the lack of academic sourcing. It has the appearance of an insular genre. That is OK but is it notable? If we discard all the Woodward-connected sources as being 1. self-published or 2. interviews (self-created content) or 3. guest editor (self-published), what is left is the "Lucky, Bob" article, which is not enough for a Keep. If however we keep some of the Woodward articles, such as the two interviews and the guest editor, it might be enough for a Weak Keep. My leaning is to Weak Delete because if you discard the Woodward-connected sources, there isn't much left, which is a sign of lack of notability beyond the publications of a single person. I did a cross-database search of over 50 commercial databases (JSTOR, newspaper archives, GALE records, etc..) and came up with 0 hits on Tanka prose. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 08:32, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
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- Self-published? – I want to address User Green Cardamom’s comments about the article’s sources and, in particular, his/her determination that certain of the sources were “self-published.” I was surprised by this statement and so I reviewed WP:SPS to determine if “self-published,” within Misplaced Pages, had a meaning other than that of common acceptance. I did not find that it did, for the guideline there states: “Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media ... are largely not acceptable.” The OED defines a self-published author as one who has “published their work independently and at their own expense.” If I turn to Self-publishing, I read that it “is the publication of any book or other media by the author of the work....” It would seem that WP:SPS, the OED and Self-publishing agree; all place emphasis upon an author paying to have his work published or upon an author, without intervention of a second party, printing his own work.
- Green Cardamom wrote: “Woodward, Jeffrey, Ed. The Tanka Prose Anthology. Baltimore, MD: Modern English Tanka Press, 2008, pp. 13-14 - this is self-published on LuLu ...and thus it fails WP:RS. The journal Modern English Tanka is also self-published.” He/she (I’ll presume “he” for ease of future reference) is calling into question three items here: the two cited articles by Woodward and the anthology edited by the same author. He remarks that these works are “self-published on Lulu.” I’m not certain how this conclusion was arrived at but perhaps I can offer some clarifications. Lulu is a print on demand supplier, like Lightning Source, CreateSpace, Replica Books and various others. From Print on demand: (POD) “is a printing technology and business process in which new copies of a book (or other document) are not printed until an order has been received.... Many traditional small presses have replaced their traditional printing equipment with POD equipment or contract their printing out to POD service providers. Many academic publishers, including university presses, use POD services to maintain a large backlist…. Larger publishers may use POD in special circumstances, such as reprinting older titles that are out of print or for performing test marketing.” The point to be made here, however, is that use of a POD supplier cannot invariably be equated with self-publishing. Many literary, university and commercial houses now employ POD.
- The Tanka Prose Anthology was published by MET Press of Baltimore. This is a small literary press owned and operated by Denis Garrison, a well-known educator and writer of haiku and tanka. The publisher is not a vanity press; his backlist includes titles by such widely-read poets as Michael McClintock, Alexis Rotella and James Tipton as well as works by professional translators of Japanese poetry (Sanford Goldstein and Amelia Fielden), and even a book by Japanese literary scholar Michael F. Marra. His list also includes various anthologies, The Tanka Prose Anthology among them. Denis Garrison was also editor and publisher of the quarterly journal Modern English Tanka (2006-2009). That journal, while printed via Lulu, was distributed, like MET books, via many channels and not solely through Lulu distribution.
- The relevant point, however, is this. An author who successfully submits an essay or poem to a literary journal that is edited by a second party is not self-published unless such a journal were to stipulate that acceptance of that author’s work required payment of a fee (vanity publishing). The same can be said for a book mss. that is submitted to a small literary press; Author X, upon acceptance of his mss. by Publisher B, cannot be reasonably described as self-published unless, again, a fee is involved. Therefore, a proposal to discard, upon the grounds of self-publication, the two Woodward essays published in Modern English Tanka or the Tanka Prose Anthology as published by MET Press has no proper foundation. On the same grounds, designating the Tarlton essay or the Everett interview as self-published is objectionable; contributors to Haibun Today, Atlas Poetica or the other journals mentioned by Green Cardamom do not pay to have their works published; they submit them to a second party (editor) who is free to accept or reject the same.
- I apologize for having to go on at such length about this matter. Some final minor points of clarification for Green Cardamom: 1) the citation from Preminger & Brogan is for the entry in the New Princeton to “prosimetrum,” i.e., any composition that combines prose and verse; 2) citations to Goldstein, Smyth, Reichhold, Kimmel and Ward were merely historical citations to direct the reader to earlier published examples of tanka prose; I felt it necessary to offer the references lest anyone accuse me of making up said poets and/or their writings.Tristan noir (talk) 00:36, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - Again I must point out to you that Goldstein and so on, just like the ancient Japanese sources you claim as "tanka prose", can only be called by that name on Misplaced Pages if they have been so-called in reliable secondary sources. elvenscout742 (talk) 00:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Response We've made progress. Tristan noir has established which sources (he believes) creates notability and which do not. An updated list follows, each source given a number.
- (1) All Jeffrey Woodward sources. According to WP:NOTE: "Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability."
- (2) Lucky, Bob (Editor). Atlas Poetica Special Feature: 25 Tanka Prose (July 2011) (the other Bob Lucky source is a Woodward source)
- (3) Prime, Patricia. “Irresistible Constructions: a tanka prose essay,” Modern English Tanka V3, N1
- Tristan noir, can you confirm? I could not find any more, most sources fall under Source (1) which is counted as a single source since they are all related to Woodward: interviews, journals, or articles by Woodward. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 06:38, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Response: Confirmed, Green Cardamom, with the possible exception (or addition) of the Ingrid Kunschke item at TankaNetz. Though not cited in the article as it now stands, there are also independent book reviews of The Tanka Prose Anthology available in the English-language tanka & haiku press, e.g., one in Ribbons (the Tanka Society of America's journal), another in Simply Haiku, another, I believe, at the Haiku Oz site (Haiku Society of Australia), and perhaps others.Tristan noir (talk) 16:14, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
- Addendum: Independent references to The Tanka Prose Anthology:
- Nominated by Grace Cavalieri, host of public radio’s “The Poet and the Poem from The Library of Congress,” for Best Books for Winter Reading, 2008
- Reviews of the anthology online:
- 1. J. Harpeng, Haiku Oz: The Australian Haiku Society (Oct. 14, 2008)
- 2. Robert Wilson, Simply Haiku V6, N4 (Winter 2008)
- 3. Jane Reichhold, Lynx XXIV:1 (Feb. 2009)
- 4. Ingrid Kunschke, TankaNetz (Oct. 2008)
- Reviews of the anthology in print only:
- 5. Tony Beyer, Kokako 10 (NZ: April 2009), pp. 51-53
- 6. M. Kei, Ribbons: Tanka Society of America Journal V4, N4 (Winter 2008), pp. 44-47Tristan noir (talk) 03:19, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - The unreliable, self-published material cited in this article having been reviewed in equally non-notable, self-published works does not prove that the subject is notable. The book itself having been nominated for an award does not make the book a reliable source of information. No one has claimed that the book itself does not exist -- I made it clear that I have read portions of it here. The problem is that the term existing in one author's works and the works of those closely attached to them, does not mean it should get its own Misplaced Pages article. Also, the fact that the article cited the book over two weeks before the book was published clearly indicates a conflict of interest. (The publisher's website, at /shop/jeffrey-woodward-ed/the-tanka-prose-anthology/paperback/product-3493914.html with lulu.com before it gives the date as 5 September 2008.) elvenscout742 (talk) 03:53, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- Agree - those are "references" for the book. But this discussion is about Tanka prose, not The Tanka Prose Anthology (book). If you want to argue the book itself meets WP:NBOOK then you should have that discussion at WP:AFC, though I would point out that 1, 2, 3 and 4 are all blog-style self-published websites and might not be considered reliable sources. Stalwart111 (talk) 03:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- Response Tristan, the problem with those reviews is they refer back to Woodward, they are not independently discussing tanka prose but simply review Woodward's book on it. The spirit of the Notability rule is that you need two sources that are not from the same person, to avoid precisely this problem where a single prolific person is able to establish notability. That is why we have the rule for two sources from different people. Those book reviews should group into Source (1) with the rest of Woodward, for notability purposes. I'll wait to hear your response before moving on, as we need to establish this concept. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 04:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
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- Respond Tristan noir. Ok I have your acceptance on that point so here is the updated list of four possible sources, two of which are needed to meet the notability guidelines:
- (1) All Jeffrey Woodward sources (including book reviews). According to WP:NOTE: "Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability."
- (2) Lucky, Bob (Editor). Atlas Poetica Special Feature: 25 Tanka Prose (July 2011) (the other Bob Lucky source is a Woodward source)
- (3) Prime, Patricia. “Irresistible Constructions: a tanka prose essay,” Modern English Tanka V3, N1
- (4) Ingrid Kunschke item at TankaNetz
- According to WP:NOTE they need to be 1. "Significant coverage" 2. "Reliable" 3. "Secondary Sources" 4. "Independent of the subject" -- Can you confirm that there are no missing sources and you agree about the NOTE requirements? Basically it looks like we have a matrix of 16 decisions: 4 sources x 4 requirements. For example, referencing 4.4, it would be about Ingrid Kuschke's independence of the subject. So we can say that 4.4 is OK there is no problem there. 4.3 is OK, it is a secondary source. 4.2 - Contention since the source doesn't recognize tanka prose as a genre, just uses the words tanka and prose. 4.1 is probably OK. Would you agree with this assessment? Green Cardamom (talk) 07:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- Response: I understand & agree, Cardamom, about the NOTE requirements. Your assessment of the Kunschke item seems fair. You asked if there were other missing sources. I haven't been able to consult it yet but User Warden offered another source (see below), previously unknown to me, where he wrote: The paper A History of Tanka in English uses the phrase more than once, e.g. "journals devoted to tanka prose and haibun appeared in the early 21st century". That item also should be taken under consideration.Tristan noir (talk) 17:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
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- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 20:07, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 20:07, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poetry-related deletion discussions. gråb whåt you cån (talk) 20:12, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- Delete - without getting into a long-winded argument about self-published sources, Lulu is effectively a vanity publisher - calling it a print-on-demand publisher might still be accurate but it comes down to this; I can write a book, send it to Lulu and have it published without any further editorial oversight, fact-checking or clearance. MET Press, though it benefits from the addition of someone in the middle to "vet" content, publishes via Lulu. I accept this is not the same as someone who simply writes whatever they like and publishes it, but it is also not the same as having something published by, say, the Cambridge University Press. I don't think it "invalidates" the sources, per se, but I also think we need additional sources to help verify the claims from the notionally self-published ones.
- But that's not my biggest concern - my biggest concern is that the same person is, in effect, responsible for 16 of the 19 "references" for the article. Each is either his own commentary (including in non-RS blogs) or his publication of other people's work via his "journal" (still, really, also a blog - just published as a "journal"). There also seems to be some serious WP:OWN issues coming from one particular WP:SPA (the creator of the article). Given the regularity with which that WP:SPA likes to cite the same single source over and over again (and given the remarkable similarity between the writing style of the article and that of the blogs in question), one has to conclude that there are some serious WP:COI issues that need resolving. If the two are not one in the same then I can only conclude they are very, very closely connected. This essay comes to mind, as does WP:OWNSITE.
- Having done a search, the same single-origin sources keep coming up. I couldn't find a single unrelated source that gives the subject significant coverage. Cheers, Stalwart111 (talk) 06:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC).
- Keep/merge There is too much emphasis in this discussion upon the title of the article, tanka prose. This is not a neologism as both of these words are well-established. It should be considered as a descriptive phrase and we should just then explore whether there is a better phrase to describe the topic. As an example, see the source Prosimetrum: Crosscultural Perspectives on Narrative in Prose and Verse. This contains chapters with titles such as The Prosimetric Form in the Chinese Literary Tradition and Combinations of Poetry and Prose in Classical Japanese Narrative. The page in question is about a narrow slice of this general topic of poetry/prose combination. As the article prosimetrum is currently quite stubby, we should preserve the current content to help fertilise and develop it. When we have more content about the way that poetry and prose are combined in various literary traditions, then we will be able to assess and balance it it, per WP:UNDUE. But while we are still working with early drafts, it seems best to be tolerant of enthusiastic efforts like this. 百花齊放,百家爭鳴 — "Let a hundred flowers bloom; let a hundred schools of thought contend." Warden (talk) 12:18, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
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- Self-publishing? Again? -- In fairness, I'd best point out that MET Press, “self-publisher” of The Tanka Prose Anthology, was also the vehicle through which Professor Michael F. Marra “self-published” his A Poetic Guide to an Ancient Capital: Aizu Yaichi and the City of Nara (2009) and Professor Sanford Goldstein (translator of Shiki, Akiko, Takuboku, and Mokichi) “self-published” his Four Decades on My Tanka Road (2007). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tristan noir (talk • contribs) 04:01, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - Reputable authors occasionally using self-publishing resources to publish material without the hassle of going through editors and so on, does not mean that it is not self-publishing, nor does it mean that all sources published by MET Press are reliable. The fact that you are now referring to those works here is evidence that, if anything, MET Press must have been all too happy to publish those works. Those authors' notable works all went through established, reputable publishers, many of which (universities) would be unlikely to publish original works of fiction, even by respected authors. Your appeal to authority is, however, completely irrelevant to this discussion, however. If you want to create an article on Marra or his work, go right ahead. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:19, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, as I said above, I don't think it "invalidates" the sources, per se, but I also think we need additional sources to help verify the claims from the notionally self-published ones. At the moment we have three "sources" that are not directly from the one single source and those aren't great. WP:SPS is pretty clear about what is appropriate and what is not. We can use self-published sources if the person publishing them is considered an expert in their field who has been cited as an expert in other independent, reliable sources. But even those are line-ball cases. The fact that the "publisher" has published works for other people is really quite irrelevant. Stalwart111 (talk) 04:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- Woodward clearly is not an expert on Japanese literature, at least. His academic background (according to the MET Press website) is in linguistics and political theory, and his writings have consistently contained egregious errors regarding the history of tanka. He misspelled the names of important tanka poets in ancient Japan ("Ariwara no Narihara", "Izumi Shikubu") , he thought the Hyakunin Isshu (a 13th century work and the most widely-studied classical poetic work in Japan) predated the Kokinshū (a tenth century work and the first imperial anthology) , etc., etc.. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:44, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Resolution
- I took the liberty of collapsing some of the above content - especially the sections that degenerated into personal attacks. My aim was not to remove particular points or content or remove anyone's contribution to the discussion. I have tried to keep those paragraphs that provided a primary / initial opinion un-hidden. The content remains in place - it was not deleted. Be assured - closing admins will read all the content, including collapsed material. My aim, in good faith, was to focus everyone's attention on the primary issue (as summarised by Green Cardamom) - that of the sources provided in support of the article. If you feel your contribution has been unfairly or inaccurately collapsed, please either move my collapse templates or raise it with me - I will happily move them. Stalwart111 (talk) 00:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Hey I'm concerned the accusations of COI, SPA, SOCK could derail the AfD, such as a closure with "no consensus" because of unresolved disputes unrelated to AfD. I suggest ignoring accusations by the other party (beyond a single response), or opening appropriate Noticeboard reports to pursue it (COI is not inherently a bad thing, even if proven, but accusing someone of it during content disputes can be a problem). AfD is about finding two independent reliable sources, is mostly what the closing admin will be looking for. We've identified 4 sources above and need to go through them with the 4 points of WP:NOTE including rationales for why they do or do-not comply. --Green Cardamom (talk) 19:37, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- Response I agree, and I apologize for letting the above dispute get a little out of hand. Let's focus on whether the sources are reliable. elvenscout742 (talk) 23:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
- Fine by me - the sock-puppetry rubbish is just a smoke-screen for a lack of cohesive argument anyway. Lets run through the four (or five) sources. Stalwart111 (talk) 00:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- (1) All Jeffrey Woodward sources (including book reviews). According to WP:GNG: "Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability."
- Even counted as one source, I can't see how these would be considered independent. They are all essentially by the same person who has, for all intents and purposes, "invented" the style in question. A good portion of them are self-published and (as I have said above), while that doesn't invalidate them, no-one seems to be able to find reliable secondary sources to back them up. On balance, I think these should be considered primary sources, at best. Fails 1.3 and 1.4 of your matrix. Stalwart111 (talk) 00:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is a complex source since there is a variety of items including Woodward-self-published books, Woodward interviews published in other journals, book reviews of Woodward publications. For the purposes of notability, all of the references to 'tanka prose' are the end product of Woodward (expressed directly by him or repeated by others in credit to him or through his publishing). Woodward is not independent of tanka prose, rather central to it. Thus as a group it fails 1.4 (independence). The sources individually may pass or fail different notability criteria but too complex to untangle since they all fail 1.4. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- You can call a white dog black as often as you like but the dog will still be white. POD, like old-fashioned job printing, is a manufacturing process; both are for-hire contractors to commercial and small press literary houses, to institutions (universities) and self-published individuals. The test of self-publishing, as common definition and the Misplaced Pages guidelines agree, is whether or not the author directly pays a second party to publish his work. A book or article that is not self-published follows this pattern: Author A submits to editor/publisher B who (without a fee from the author) accepts and contracts the printing service to POD/Jobprinter C. This pattern applies to Random House, Princeton University and to MET Press (as well as its journal, Modern English Tanka). The concerted effort to marginalize the writings here discussed as self-published, despite plain evidence to the contrary, is unsettling. If you were to take this discussion outside of its present cloistered confines and place it, say, at a PEN International Congress, an Independent Book Publishers Association Conference or a Council of Literary Magazines and Presses Conference, the remarks made here with respect to self-publishing would be met with incredulity, if not open laughter.
- I’ll also have to take issue with Stalwart’s assertion that the source being discussed here “invented" the style in question. We’re not dealing with a literary style, first, but with a literary form; the many practitioners of the form in question have individual styles. The larger point, however, is this silly claim that the form in question was one person’s invention. Like the somewhat desperate recitation of the mantra self-publishing, the facts are simply not in accord with Stalwart’s assertion. If Woodward invented anything, it was not a literary form but a descriptive phrase to identify it. This is clear from his “Introduction” to the Tanka Prose Anthology: “Japanese criticism, ancient and modern, offers no comprehensive term that might encompass the many forms and styles that the wedding of tanka and prose admits. Instead, the terminology employed in the scholarly literature is form-specific, addressing not the genus but the individual species…. The first problem to address in defining tanka prose…is nomenclature. Whereas Japanese waka practice and literary criticism provide no precedent, the analogy of tanka plus prose to the latter development of haibun does. The term haibun, when applied to a literary composition, most commonly signifies haiku plus prose “written in the spirit of haiku.” Haiku prose or haikai prose would be an apt English equivalent of the Japanese word, haibun. Upon the same grounds, tanka prose becomes a reasonable term to apply to literary specimens that incorporate tanka plus prose….” That the form precedes his coined term is clear from the independently published record; the article here proposed for deletion and the anthology present numerous works that pre-date the Woodward source and that were published wholly independent of him. For these reasons, I disagree with the assessment of Stalwart and Green Cardamom that this source fails 1.3 and 1.4.Tristan noir (talk) 04:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- (2) Lucky, Bob (Editor). Atlas Poetica Special Feature: 25 Tanka Prose (July 2011) (the other Bob Lucky source is a Woodward source)
- Again, most of the sources cited for this work come directly from Misplaced Pages (note WP:WINARS), but more specifically are the same Woodward "references" above. Aside from the fact that copy-pasting references from WP wouldn't be considered particularly scholarly, the site in question is essentially a blog with "guest editors" comprised mostly of the same small group of people cited by Woodward. For all of those reasons I contend this isn't really a reliable source. Fails 2.2 and 2.4 of your matrix. Stalwart111 (talk) 00:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Has some independence but Lucky Bob also has connections to Woodward. According to WP:GNG (footnote #4): "Works produced by the subject, or those with a strong connection to them, are unlikely to be strong evidence of notability." Concerned with reliable source it's uncertain what vetting if any was done for this paper. Since 'literary genre' is a scholarly topic we can expect to have at least some "reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses." (see WP:SCHOLARSHIP). Fail 2.2 and 2.4 -- Green Cardamom (talk) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Again, before being able to discuss notability, I’m called upon, by the preceding comments, to first address points of misapprehension or misrepresentation of fact. Stalwart states unequivocally that (a) the site in question is essentially a blog, and (b) that it has “guest editors” comprised mostly of the same small group of people cited by Woodward. The site, in fact, is the online home of a hardcopy journal, Atlas Poetica. The guest editors are independent of the journal proper and they edit only those special features found here. I made a quick count and found that 12 guest editors are listed there. Most can be demonstrated to have little or no connection with this first source.
- Cardamom’s comments raise two other problems. He insists that literary genre is a scholarly topic which, indeed, it is. But genre is first and foremost a literary topic, like questions of literary form, and the writers of said forms, and not scholars, are the first persons to encounter this topic and to struggle with its definition. I say this to insist upon what I believe is an important point: that in discussions of living or contemporary literature, as over-and-against historical literature, those writers engaged in the form are the first witnesses and first scholars, if you will. The user who proposed the article on tanka prose for deletion consistently confounded these matters, insisting upon judging a modern English literary phenomenon by criteria drawn from Japanese scholarship. Writing communities, whether or not scholars are alive to the fact, tend to be relatively small, so much so that most parties, large and small, have some acquaintance. One might look only to the history of American poetry, for example, and review the complex of personal relationships between Ezra Pound, William Carlos Williams, Marianne Moore, and H.D. or the similar web later between members of the Beat Generation. For these reasons, it should not be surprising that writers who share common goals, such as those involved in tanka prose, may know each other just as do (and I apologize for the shocking comparison) the fellow professors of a university’s English Department. I offer these remarks to explain why I believe that Cardamom’s citation of WP:GNG and WP:SCHOLARSHIP are inaccurately applied in this instance. Therefore, I dissent from the opinion of Stalwart and Cardamom above and assert that the source passes muster of 2.2 and 2.4.Tristan noir (talk) 04:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- (3) Prime, Patricia. “Irresistible Constructions: a tanka prose essay,” Modern English Tanka V3, N1
- The site in question is a self-published blog and the author's own introduction to the site effectively says as much (though in German - Google translate is not great but it's enough to get the gist). It's certainly not a scholarly journal in the technical form of a blog - it's a stock-standard, my-thoughts-for-the-day type blog. I would contend it probably passes 2.4 but fails 2.2 of your matrix and possibly 2.1 given the term "Tanka prose" seems to be used speculatively, in the sense that even the writer doesn't seem to accept that the term is commonplace, just that it has been used. But that part is in English (not the author's native German) so I'm hesitant to over-interpret the meaning. Stalwart111 (talk) 00:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- I would be more inclined to say it fails 3.4 as well. The author, Prime, has interviewed Woodward on several occasions, and Modern English Tanka comes from the same publisher as all the other sources. In order for the term to be truly notable, it should probably need to have been discussed in independent works that do not come from one publisher alone. elvenscout742 (talk) 00:59, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think it might fail 2.4 because in the paper Patricia mentions a connection to Woodward. It also fails 2.2 since it's not academically vetted and we are dealing with a scholarly topic (WP:SCHOLARSHIP). Not every source must be strictly academic but we need at least some evidence of the genre's acceptance in the academic world. 2.1 might also be a problem but I will leave that open. So fails 2.2, 2.4 and maybe 2.1-- Green Cardamom (talk) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Stalwart, above, seems to have confused the Kunschke source in German below and the Prime article in Modern English Tanka here under discussion. That is the only sense I could make of his statement that the PDF version of a printed journal (MET) was a blog. Again, we face the same misrepresentation of fact, viz., that an article by Author A accepted by Editor B is somehow self-published and thereby disqualified; that the author Prime is acquainted with the first source (Elvenscout goes so far as to claim that she has interviewed Woodward on several occasions; one occasion is cited in the references to the article; I challenge E. to offer evidence to support his hyperbole) and is thereby disqualified. And we have again what I take to be an unreasonable expectation, that is, that a literary topic’s proper authority is academic scholarship as over-and-against the writings of poets and literary critics. It should be obvious, from my remarks, that I’m in the minority and dissent from the above opinions on the issue of notability.Tristan noir (talk) 04:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- (4) Ingrid Kunschke item at TankaNetz
- Has been analysed above and I agree it probably fails 4.1 and 4.2. Stalwart111 (talk) 00:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Discussed above. Fails 4.1 -- Green Cardamom (talk) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- (5) The paper A History of Tanka in English uses the phrase more than once... That item also should be taken under consideration.
- I hope you don't mind me including this in your matrix given the original author has contended that it should also be considered which I think is only fair (I have included it as number 5, so the matrix extends to 5.1, 5.2... etc). As I noted when this "source" was original put forward, it is published by the same people as those who publish a good number of the sources in the "Woodward" category 1. I would contend on that basis that it fails 5.4 of your matrix. I would contend it notionally fails 5.2 given it is published (via the same self-publishing house as many of Woodward sources) by the same person responsible for publishing source 2 - Lucky was writing for Kei's blog as a "guest editor". We know the author in question is a blogger who, in this instance, has turned his hand to writing a slightly-more-scholarly style of essay, published by the same group as other "sources", citing many of the same small group of "authors". On balance, I would contend it fails 5.2 and 5.4. Stalwart111 (talk) 00:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Source has some independence but also connections to Woodward. According to WP:GNG (footnote #4): "Works produced by the subject, or those with a strong connection to them, are unlikely to be strong evidence of notability." It also has the same issue of reliability since this is an academic topic and there is no clear scholarly vetting process through peer review or submission to "well-regarded academic presses" (WP:SCHOLARSHIP). Fails 5.2 and 5.4 -- Green Cardamom (talk) 05:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- The characterization by Stalwart of the author of this item as a blogger who, in this instance, has turned his hand to writing a slightly-more-scholarly style of essay is deserving of contempt and has no place in this discussion. Beyond that, Stalwart chants his tired refrain (self-publishing) and spices that with further evidence of his bias by placing words like “sources” and “authors” in quotation marks. His clear attempts at character assassination are self-evident. Beyond this venom, he says nothing coherent or persuasive about notability. I offered my reasons above, under Lucky, item #2, for dissenting from Cardamom’s specific application of WP:GNG and WP:SCHOLARSHIP to these items. I disagree for the same reasons here.Tristan noir (talk) 04:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC)