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Professionalism and civility

Initiated by Alanscottwalker (talk) at 13:08, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Alanscottwalker (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
• Mark Arsten (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Bongwarrior (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Black Kite (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• A Quest For Knowledge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jehochman (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Jtrainor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive240#Is this now considered acceptable from an administrator?
• User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 116#Is it OK to call other editors "arsehole" or "dishonest idiot"?
• User talk:Malleus Fatuorum#Blocked for one week

Statement by Alanscottwalker

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive240#Is this now considered acceptable from an administrator? was closed as:"This discussion has degenerated into vitriol and uselessness; no further admin action is going to be taken. Bring it to Arbcom or step outside and get a breath of fresh air. Ed 01:20, 30 September 2012 (UTC)" And apparently led to this discussion:User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 116#Is it OK to call other editors "arsehole" or "dishonest idiot"? and this block/unblock sequence User talk:Malleus Fatuorum#Blocked for one week.

Given the charged rhetoric, counter charges, admin action, and generally poor conduct, this all appears to need {further) Arbcom action to "break the back" as stated in the arbitration guide. Like it or not, admin and content creators need to cooperate as do admin and admin, and editor and editor, in a collaborative effort. As currently constituted, this Project need both types of users, and needs both types to respect all other users, in a professional manner.

@Elen, and I guess a few others Arbitrators question(s) to me: What I'm expecting to happen is that the Arbitration Committee would arbitrate whether the expected level of conduct has occurred, here, and whether the proper actions have been taken, or whether other or additional actions should be taken. As it deals with a Pillar of the project, that would be in the Arbitrators' bailiwick. And as this system proceeds on the case development method, this seems like a case right within the typical fact pattern, and therefore a case of useful moment for the correct operation of the Pillar.

Note: Everyone seems to be in almost total agreement about what the proper conduct is (despite the rather odd and seemingly overwrought hand wringing: 'that we just can't know'). So, that leaves the other issues for you in your deliberative judgement to decide. As for the apparent claim by one or two Arbitrators that the Arbitration Committee just cannot handle the case with wisdom, probity of action, and due diligence -- that appears to be a cop-out, as other Arbitrators have also appeared to note. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:39, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

• Silk Tork. Aye. It takes open discussion, and sometimes multiple open discussions, because in the end it is addressed by no action, by one action, or by multiple incremental actions, regardless, it is addressed. Because the Pillar is not going anywhere. So, does the Commitee want a stand-off with sets of the community saying, 'we can't handle it, take it to Arbcom, which we elect to handle these intractable conduct issues,' and the Commitee responding 'we can't even hear the issue?'
• To others. This claimed connection between incivility and opposition to POV pushing needs further elucidation. Frankly, it makes little sense. The proper conduct is Civil (Pillar) NPOV (Pillar) pushing. Not incivility. So, if there are areas such as COI, SPA and socking that need to be segregated from the strong disagreements over content, which are bound to arise, and which still need to focus on the content not the contributer, than why cannot we segregate those? Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:48, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Mark Arsten

An e-mail I sent sparked this whole mess. I don't plan to say much more about this than I did at WP:AN last night: I was wrong to say what I did, I deeply regret doing so, I offer my apologies to Malleus and everyone else involved, and I'll accept whatever sanction the community/Arbcom deems appropriate. As to the other issues involved, I don't feel that the conduct of any of the other listed parties rises to the level where arbitration is appropriate, but I'll defer to the opinions of uninvolved users. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• For clarity's sake, here's the chronology as far as I know.

1. . Last Friday night I closed an ANI thread about Malleus' comments at FAC and said that no immediate action was needed but that the FAC delegates would handle things. Shortly afterwards he started a thread entitled "That is so fucking pissy" on my talk page to complain about my close.
2. Over the next couple days I asked him to revisit the thread on my page.
3. Tuesday night I sent him the "fuck you" e-mail" "You know what, fuck you. You're a petulant, narcissistic piece of shit."
4. Wednesday I sent an email to him apologizing and stated that I'd avoid him in the future: "Apologies for my e-mail last night, I wish I hadn't lost my temper. I'll resolve to merely avoid people that irritate me in the future."
5. On Thursday he sent me an e-mail telling me not to lose my temper again and to be more careful about split infinitives: "I have no idea what you're talking about, but not losing your temper again sounds like a plan. BTW, when you're talking about people it's "who", not "that". And it's pretty good to avoid split infinitives as well."
6. On Saturday night he complained about my conduct on AN thread in question. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:30, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• @Elen, I believe the other e-mail he alluded to is the one I sent on Wednesday (point 3). Also, I've never threatened to block him. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:28, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Scorecard by Nobody Ent

• Mark Arsten was called out and has already apologized.  Done
• MF's reaction was intemperate and he was sanctioned (blocked) for it.  Done
• Bongwarrier applied a premature and excessive sanction, but was quickly reversed and chastised on their talk page.  Done
• BK did the right thing, no action or additional comment necessary.
• Not sure why AQFK or Jehochman are named parties?

The committee has previously addressed a similar case, concluding:

Throughout the project, breaches of the expected level of decorum are common. These violations of the community's standards of conduct are unevenly, and often ineffectively, enforced. (1,2)
— English Misplaced Pages Arbitration Committee

It's unclear what has changed in the intervening ~year such that taking a case would benefit Misplaced Pages. Nobody Ent 14:54, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

@Risker -- Trout serving would be much healthier for Misplaced Pages, Omega 3s and all that. Nobody Ent 23:41, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

@Kiefer et. al. It's the English Misplaced Pages -- I will continue to boldly split infinitives. (I also say irregardless irregardless of people spouting nonsense about it not being a word.) Nobody Ent 23:41, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Resolute

As much I respect and value Malleus' editing and reviewing abilities, I don't care in the slightest for his lack of civility overall. As such, I found his ANI complaint utterly hypocritical. If Misplaced Pages took civility seriously, he would have been banned long ago. So my answer to his original complaint is simple: if we're going to treat Mark Arsten the same as a "non-admin", namely Malleus himself, then fine. Lets block Mark, have a quick discussion about how much he brings to the project despite this breach of civility, then unblock him one hour and 37 minutes later. Or, lets just trout everyone for making a mountain out of a molehill and get on with editing. Resolute 15:01, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman

I didn't comment at the WP:AN thread and strongly oppose ArbCom delving, once again, into the issue of civility on Misplaced Pages. If there is a case, I don't intend to participate, because it risks intensifying long-running disputes. Everybody needs to be encouraged to work toward greater civility, but people need to understand that editors will occasionally become flummoxed, some more than others, and drop an f-bomb here or there. When that happens, given them space, back off, and then point out that the comments are not civil. Sometimes it is useful to offer support to the target of hostile remarks. Rarely it may be necessary to block somebody if the attacks are really over the top and cross the line into racial, religious, sexual or nationalistic harassment. Simply calling somebody a "nitwit" or a "stupid fucker" isn't harassment; it's just coarse.

@MONGO. You make a valid point that MF's incivility wasn't dealt with properly. Since he's not under a civility restriction as far as I can tell, just a topic ban from RFA talk pages, WP:AE is not available. We all know that civility blocks are poor practice. (You seem upset. Here, let me block you to help you calm down.) I suppose ArbCom could entertain an amendment to the original case, but there is still no reason to have a new case. The facts are already in evidence. Jehochman 17:35, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Dennis Brown

This doesn't belong here. If anything, this once again demonstrates why civility blocks are almost always a bad idea. Those that screwed up already know it, so preventative action isn't needed. Trouts to everyone, and move along. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• @SirFozzie: While it could be argued that trouts are not effective, we certainly have evidence that blocks can be equally ineffective, hence my prior statement. Heads are going to bump from time to time, and throwing more drama process on top of a minor scuffle only makes the situation worse, not better. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:39, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
• @Risker, with the exception of handing out a few more trouts than you did, I completely agree, particularly with the idea that Arbcom is not the place to create new policies on civility. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:43, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Hasteur

Once again we're here to get ArbCom to clarify and lay down some guidelines in terms of civility. That one of the parties to the case is one that was explicitly sanctioned in the previous case tells me that the previous case did not fix the problem. We have the same civility blocks, wheel warring blocks/unblocks, minimal (under 1 hour) discussions that any administrator can elect to ignore. ArbCom is the only one empowered by Jimmy Wales to take conduct matters into hand and deal with disruptive editors and administrators. Having a civility block be overturned less than 1 hour after minimal discussion only demonstrates that if you contribute some content, you're practically allowed to get away with anything. No editor is worth more than any other. No Administrator is above the rules of wikipedia. Hasteur (talk) 16:26, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• RE: Newyorkbrad 23:05, 30 September 2012 (UTC): What do I want out of Arbitration? I want the committee to lay down a dolomite block of civility sanctions that spell out the consequences of serial, unrepentant, and disgusting incivility. I want blocks for civility to actually mean something and not need the "Seven Words" to get someone being incivil to be blocked. For to long because some editors "contribute content" they are given a softer hand when they run clear off the rails with disrespectful and deliberately offensive statements.
• RE: Casliber 20:14, 30 September 2012 (UTC): So you are not reading the linked admonishments and reccomendations as having been entered on the sanction log and therefore continued disruptive behavior as being reasonably blocked under the "blocking to prevent continued disruption".
• RE: Risker 23:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC): I would be willing to accept the entirety of your proposal 2 except Malleus has already been before ArbCom before for Incivility less than 8 months ago. I remember the amount of drama that was caused during that spate of incivility (replete with blocks that stick for less than 5 minutes)
• RE: Committee as a whole: As was evidenced in the closure of the last Civility ArbCom case, there was a commemoration that the community come up with a civility standard. As evidenced by no WP shortcut, the community failed in developing a standard. In my mind the reason why no standard has been developed is because the issue was shirked by the committee and once out of the magnifying glass of the community scrutiny, it got quickly forgotten. I implore the committee to not let this happen again as it would seem to suggest that the location for intractable conduct interactions is unwilling to deal with incivility (which stems from conduct) issues. Hasteur (talk) 02:55, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
• RE: Casliber 02:50, 1 October 2012 (UTC): So what you're saying is that only editors who are directly involved in the current dispute are allowed to offer statements? Not willing to accept amicus curiae statements? Good to know for later consideration. In no way is this intended to be a threat, simply attempting to clarify what appears to be a peculiar position Hasteur (talk) 03:11, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Looie496

It was wrong of ArbCom to decline the last incivility case, and you ought to find a way to accept this one. This issue has been massively disruptive for a long time, and it is time for ArbCom to make an effort to resolve it. Looie496 (talk) 17:00, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Black Kite

I saw a block which was clearly excessive given the mild incivility that it was applied for (and also the situation which it was in the context of), and which the blocking administrator admitted was punitive rather than preventative . After a short discussion I undid it as such. I have not previously taken any administrative action regarding Malleus. Civility blocks need to be applied where they are clearly preventative of damage to Misplaced Pages or the involvement of other editors. A snarky edit summary in reply to a posting that was clearly designed to be inflammatory does not come under this heading (see also this FOF from the previous AC case). I completely stand by my actions here and would do exactly the same thing in the same situation. I'll also put this finding of fact from the previous AC case out there too - it's relevant.

And while we're at it, even though this didn't factor in at the time, let's compare the two users. Malleus with his many FAs we all know, whilst JTrainor has 57 mainspace edits in the last three years and appears to mainly exist to pop up every couple of weeks on drama boards or AC cases and (a) ask for people to be blocked , (b) post completely unhelpful messages , or (c) as in this case, bait other users . Which of the two is Misplaced Pages better off with them editing?

And furthermore, WP:CIVIL says this - "In ... cases where there is reason to believe that taking admin action against someone who was uncivil would not be an uncontentious (or nearly so) prospect, it is expected that discussion will be opened on the matter, via ANI or RFC/U, before any admin action is taken." This was always going to be contentious. Black Kite (talk) 20:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken "Malleus' proclivity towards outbursts of incivility has been encouraged and enabled by the coterie of admins who will generally unblock him if other editors see fit to block him". Doesn't the fact that eleven different admins have unblocked Malleus thirteen times actually suggest that most of the blocks have been bad? I had a look at some of them after the night's events - some are ridiculous. Black Kite (talk) 17:48, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Rschen7754

*headdesk*.

Malleus shouldn't have made the initial remark that set Mark off. Mark shouldn't have sent that email. Jtrainor shouldn't have made the remark that set Malleus off. Malleus shouldn't have used the incivil edit summary. Bongwarrior was allowed under policy to block Malleus, but that probably was not the best call here, as that made things worse. Black Kite, however, should not have unblocked Malleus after a whopping 16 minutes of discussion.

So, to quote The Office, "Look, we could all file complaints against each other and just drown in a sea of paperwork, but you know, we can just move on with our... with our lives." If everyone could just drop it, we don't need a case. If the parties want to pursue this any further, then we may need one. --Rschen7754 17:13, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

@Hersfold: Editors are required to use {{ANI-notice}} when they start an AN(I) against someone. If an administrator doesn't notice that, meaning they didn't look at the user's talk page before blocking, that's an epic fail. So at least in my view, admins can't claim innocence regarding not knowing an ANI is going on.

@ArbCom: No matter what you do, people will be criticizing you.

@Risker: Out of fairness, shouldn't Black Kite be thrown in?

The admin actions in this case concern me, per Risker, and per Ks0stm, and I think admonishments are necessary at a bare minimum . Still on the fence about Risker's proposal #1; that will be a huge loss to the encyclopedia, but will it solve the civility problem once and for all? --Rschen7754 05:51, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Trusilver

Misplaced Pages rests on five pillars. It's a damned good thing that one, two, three and five are strong, because the fourth has some structural issues. Everyone is uncivil at one point or another, everyone gets frustrated and makes a personal attack at some point. I've done it, most of the people that are reading this have done it. And anyone who hasn't... then I take my hat off to you, for you have the patience of a saint. The troubling issue isn't minor incivility. It's a handful of editors that have, right or wrong, behaved in a manner that has resulted in thousands of man-hours of masturbatory intellectual hand-wringing over what the word "civil" means. I'm generally opposed to most Arbcom cases, but I feel this incident clearly shows that WP:CIVIL is either defunct or needs to be more concrete than it currently is. Policy exists for a reason. It's time for civility policy to either be demoted to a guideline, or given teeth. Either way, I see Arbcom as the only venue that has a reasonable chance to solve the problem. Really... this discussion has been going on for years. It's past time to solve it. Trusilver 17:20, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments by MONGO

I agree with Malleus that the rules are applied unevenly and inequitably.--MONGO 18:01, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Malleus has had multiple second chances...more than anyone I know on this website. Since he was already admonished in the Civility Enforcement arbcom case, why should he get another pass now? It would be uneven and inequitable for arbcom to not enforce its own finding of less than a year ago. Bongwarrior did what here...he blocked a repeat offender. Black Kite is a proven ally of Malleus and unblocks...Malleus (as usual) provokes an admin to make one critical error by sending that email...is there any other evidence of misuse of tools and positions by admins here? I don't see any. We deal with those that have repeatedly demonstrated that they are incompatible with Misplaced Pages through blocks and bans. Those that have made singular isolated and/or rare and infrequent gaffes and mistakes get admonished. The GA and FA process won't cease with a temporary or even a permanent site ban of Malleus...the disappearance of Lord Elmsworth didn't bring an end to new FA development. I don't care if Malleus is an unpaid volunteer...we all are. If arbcom doesn't take this case we should all get to be just as rude, as crass and as foul mouthed as Malleus and be that way to him anytime and anywhere we wish...and we better not get blocked, banned or have one of his chums show up at our talkpages and elsewhere to threaten and insult us. If were going to allow Malleus to have a free for all, then that should apply to everyone. Make no mistake about it...we are here once again due to Malleus.MONGO 17:17, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

@Jehochman....issue is, nothing was learned from the old case. Malleus persists in his behavior which is subsidized by the endorsement of some administrators and others that incorrectly believe that Malleus is a target or is persecuted. I don't know if an amendment to the prior case would be appropriate.MONGO 19:38, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

@Arbitrators...discussion about a blanket block and ban regarding most of the named parties seems draconian. Is this being discussed to be deliberately ridiculous or are you serious? While the line in the sand idea may be fine in some situations with repeat offenders, it is definitely overkill when applied to editors who have little or no prior history of issues.MONGO 11:14, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

@Arbitrators...the excesses will persist until they are stopped. Nothing beats having an award offered by another getting crapped on by Malleus. Furthermore, if these are just schoolkids as Malleus assumes why not encourage them instead of posting such comments. Frankly, if you need diffs they're everywhere...hardly a day passes without further evidences.MONGO 20:31, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

@Kiefer...subsequent to the unblock of Malleus by Black Kite, he has resumed his behavior as posted immediately above. The block by BongWarrior was within his remit since arbcom has already sanctioned Malleus and they have a finding as well as discussion especially from NewYorkBrad that Malleus needs to be civil...telling "schoolkids" they can't tell their "arse(s) from their elbows" or that they haven't written "spit" is hardly civil...its actually pretty outrageous. Have we all allowed the civility bar to drop so low that nothing less than a death or legal threat can result in an administrator blocking a "vested" contributor? We have plenty of vested contributors that have contributed to FA's that have never been blocked...and others that have but not for some time since they either reformed on their own or finally understood why sanctions had been applied.MONGO 11:45, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

@Kiefer...the school principal goes running to the classroom to break up a fight between the kids...principal asks "who started it"..."He did" says one..."No, he did" says the other...now, which kid has already been warned, reminded, suspended about this fighting. "Heaps of abuse" by kids or "trolls" posing as kids? And these "trolls" have been targeting Malleus have they? Surely.MONGO 13:48, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I've already typed enough of course, and surely my opinion is of little consequence, but if arbcom doesn't do anything now, we will be back here again before long. Would wish to reiterate that any finding should be based on what the issue is, not on trying to mete out punishments that are designed to make everyone happy or unhappy....as I see no major malfeasence by the three administrors mentioned here. The issue here seems pretty clear to me and based on past remedies that seem to have gone unnoticed and/or unheeded, all that need be done is to enforce prior verdicts.--MONGO 23:34, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Ks0stm

I'll just preface this by saying (perhaps with a slightly unwise choice of words given the situation) that I give absolutely zero fucks about this whole situation except for one thing: When an admin makes a controversial block, is it really that hard to wait and get a consensus before unblocking? I don't fault Black Kite, I just think that nine times out of ten it is going to be wise to wait longer than 16 minutes to unblock someone, because 16 minutes is hardly enough time for a discussion to really get going, let alone come to conclusion. I'm not saying that there aren't situations where I would do what Black Kite did, I'm just saying that this is most certainly not one of them given the high level of controversy surrounding the whole concept here. Anyway, if ArbCom takes this, I urge them 100% to look into the issue of rapid undoing of controversial administrator actions, but I don't think this particular incident rises to the level of needing examined in its own right. Ks0stm 18:33, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

@Jclemens: Like Ks0stm 21:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Yomangani

If ArbCom does take the case, a lot of time could be saved by just copying the previous case to a new name and changing the dates. Admittedly, that approach wouldn't give the opportunity for two months of character assassination and axe grinding under the guise of evidence, so you'd have to weigh up the pros and cons. Yomangani 18:56, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Comment by MBisanz

Please don't take this case. There are problems to resolve, but this isn't a starting fact-pattern from which Arbcom could ever hope to base a conclusive decision on. MBisanz 19:28, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Jtrainor

This is fairly straightforwards to me. Malleus, an editor with a long history of personal attacks and blocks for same, baited an admin that has no block history whatsoever, and then ran to WP:ANI to make a big scene, as though he were shocked, SHOCKED that anyone might react the way they did to him. Somehow me pointing this out caused people to gasp in outrage. That's the extent of my involvement in this matter. There's nothing here that couldn't be solved by either putting Malleus on civility parole or indeffing him.

On another note, there's been a long, long trend on Misplaced Pages in recent years of people who contribute a lot being allowed to skirt or ignore WP:CIVIL, while others get hammered down flat. This trend of favoritism needs to stop. Jtrainor (talk) 20:46, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

The fact that my comment is considered incivil on the same level as Malleus's latest profanity-laced outburst shows just how much of a joke civility enforcement has become around here, and a bad one at that. Jtrainor (talk) 20:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I further note that I have never before had any sort of sanction related to civility or WP:NPA, while Malleus... well, his record speaks for himself. Risker, you ought to disqualify yourself. Jtrainor (talk) 20:22, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Unscintillating

This is fairly straightforward to me.  Black Kite improperly took responsibility in an issue that was already correctly administratively resolved.  IMO, the other parties can be removed from the case.  Unscintillating (talk) 21:13, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

In lifting the one-week block, the edit comment stated, "(clearly provoked and block length out of line with that which would have been expected from any other editor)".  I'm not aware that the civility policy makes being provoked a defense.  As another editor has noted, the argument that the block length was excessive did not lead to a shortening of the block.

In response for an arbitrator request for concrete guidance, I suggest that an effective sanction for the incivility-enabling is a block the length of the block that was lifted.  Doing the math comes to about 10064 minutes, which is a symbolic amount of time.  As the second mover, this administrator has taken responsibility that Arbcom does not want overridden as per WP:WHEEL.  This administrator is now the representative of the enablers of incivility in the community.  Unscintillating (talk) 00:15, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Speech acts by Kiefer.Wolfowitz

1. The user, Truesilver, who called Black Kite a "groupie" gives evidence above, without having retracted his insult. Where are the civility zealots?
2. The word professional has a meaning, and it is better not to misuse it, particularly at this website, which welcomes edits from ignoramuses who don't even aspire to amateurism.
3. Malleus is correct, as acknowledged by Mark, that split infinitives are better avoided, generally, as a courtesy to readers whose first language is a Romance language.
4. These kinds of witch-hunts have given Puritanism a bad name. Let us review the Westminster Larger Catechism:

• A144: The duties required in the Ninth Commandment are, the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man, and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own; appearing and standing for the truth; and from the heart, sincerely, freely, clearly, and fully, speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice, and in all other things whatsoever; a charitable esteem of our neighbors; loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name; sorrowing for, and covering of their infirmities; freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces, defending their innocence; a ready receiving of a good report, and unwillingness to admit of an evil report, concerning them; discouraging talebearers, flatterers, and slanderers; love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requireth; keeping of lawful promises; studying and practicing of whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.
• A145: The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own, especially in public judicature; giving false evidence, suborning false witnesses, wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, outfacing and overbearing the truth; passing unjust sentence, calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked; forgery, concealing the truth, undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calleth for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others; speaking the truth unseasonably, or maliciously to a wrong end, or perverting it to a wrong meaning, or in doubtful and equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of truth or justice; speaking untruth, lying, slandering, backbiting, detracting, tale bearing, whispering, scoffing, reviling, rash, harsh, and partial censuring; misconstructing intentions, words, and actions; flattering, vainglorious boasting, thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others; denying the gifts and graces of God; aggravating smaller faults; hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession; unnecessary discovering of infirmities; raising false rumors, receiving and countenancing evil reports, and stopping our ears against just defense; evil suspicion; envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any, endeavoring or desiring to impair it, rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy; scornful contempt, fond admiration; breach of lawful promises; neglecting such things as are of good report, and practicing, or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering: What we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.

What more needs to be said? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:14, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

@MONGO,

Please review the history of Matthew Somebody calling FA writers divas and putting down Malleus's editing, etc.. Malleus hardly "shat on" Matthew. Matthew quoted comments out of context, later, as noted by Nikkimaria, and again such misrepresentation violates WP:Civility. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:04, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

@Mongo,

Malleus is nice to schoolkids, as you can tell if you examine his talk page and see the thank you notes from students and teachers.

Schoolkids, or trolls posing as schoolkids, do not get a pass on civility either. In this case, Matthew heaped abuse on FA editors and specifically Malleus, repeatedly, before Malleus wrote the idiomatic expression. Are you claiming that Matthew, at that time, could tell his arse from his elbow? Did you read his stream of abuse? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:32, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

@Mongo,

You and the others are obsessed with Malleus and are not doing anything about incivility and personal attacks against him. One expects any talk page at Misplaced Pages to be like a bar at an OCD convention, but there is no reason to double-book the OCD convention at a hypocrisy convention. None of the obsessives hounding Malleus have even tried to show a bit of principle to try and to stop the worst incivility against Malleus. Sublimate the obsessive impulses in more constructive directions, per my motto.... Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Barts1a

Firstly: The main trigger for this case was not Malleus for once (While he did set the ball rolling, this case itself did not come as a direct result of that action). Had AQFK not initiated the cherry-picked thread on Jimbo's talk page none of us would even be here and the issue would have already been forgotten! Secondly: I think we all know what is going to happen here: A lot of arguments and infighting just to get to exactly where we were at the end of the last case involving Malleus! Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 22:33, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Salvio Giuliano

I apologise if it appears I'm rambling; these are a bunch of disjointed thoughts I have regarding this issue...

In general, blocks are imposed rebus sic stantibus — because they are not meant as punishment —; this means that when a change in the circumstances which originally justified the imposition of a block has occurred, an admin can legitimately lift it.

Additionally, admins can (and should) unblock an editor, when it is clear that the block was entirely unreasonable or its imposition violated one of Misplaced Pages’s policies, such as WP:INVOLVED.From my experience, these are very rare occurrences, however. And they apply to all admin actions, not just blocks.

When, on the other hand, an admin has imposed a reasonable block in a case when another sysop, under the circumstances, would not have, the latter should not substitute his discretion to that of his colleague and should seek a consensus before acting, instead.

These, however, are merely the best current best practices — or, actually, the way I have always intended them to be —. The only relevant policy, here, is WP:WHEEL and it was not violated.

In this case, in my opinion, Bongwarrior’s block was reasonable — which does not mean I would have done the same, but I acknowledge his actions were grounded in policy — and should not have been reversed so quickly by Black Kite.

That said, I don’t think anybody should be sanctioned. Mark has already apologised and, since what he did was incredibly out of character, I’d personally think that a WP:TROUT is more than enough: I’m sure he won’t do anything like this again. Black Kite did not violate any policy when he chose to unblock Malleus, even though I think his actions were unwise. And, to be fair to Malleus, he reacted badly only because he thought his complaint was not being taken seriously and, furthermore, he felt baited. He should not have reacted the way he did, but had he been a different editor, he’d probably only have received a warning. It’s not fair to enforce a policy in such an unequal way. That is why I urge the Committee to reject this case. Nothing constructive can come of this case, in my opinion: it will just drag on for weeks, allowing all participants to throw mud at each other, and will probably only result in a couple of reminders, admonishments and cautions. Since ArbCom cannot make policy, only the community can solve the problem, by discussing the greater issue of how WP:CIV and WP:NPA should be enforced, because until we have an objective way of dealing with incivility, one that is applied to all regardless of who they are, we risk perpetuating a system of selective enforcement which only targets the same individuals. Salvio 22:35, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Lothar von Richthofen

I do not see the need for a case here. This is a pedestrian, uninteresting situation where one party "got the other's goat" with a nasty remark, prompting the now-goatless party to fire off a base insult at the livestock-snatcher. This was then turned into a circus on the noticeboard, and the rest is history.

Bleeding community time and resources into some comprehensive "civility enforcement" plan is wasteful in the highest degree. Civility crusades ultimately breed the same toxic environment that these sorts of flame-wars do by creating a stifling, kindergarten-style environment where fear of getting whacked for the slightest off-colour remark prevents real discussion from taking place in the same way that flame-wars do. Contrary to Malleus's allegations made in the original thread, I don't see administrators emailing insults to "lesser editors" as being any sort of widespread issue here. Barring strong evidence of such a phenomenon, starting a case here would create much heat and virtually no light for what must be treated as an isolated incident.

Elen hits the nail on the head with her remark about civil POV pushing. I think that the community needs to drastically reassess its priorities here. In the end, incivility is not a great threat to the project's integrity, and simply resolving and reporting things in a level-headed manner is much more effective than jumping up on a soapbox and hollering about "the system, man". On the other hand, civil POV pushers exploit the civility-hysteria that is becoming ever more prevalent here by cloaking their systemic disruption of the actual encyclopaedia in a collegial sugarcoat, so that when they are brought into question, suspicion may be easily deferred by squawking "AGF! AGF!"—an acronym eagerly lapped up by those civility-purists. See for example User:Jagged 85, who was finally banned this month after his civil POV-pushing metastasised to one too many topic areas, leaving behind a gigantic mess that will take the community a very long time indeed to clean up.

Is this really worth having a case about? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:13, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

@Fozzie: Any topic-specific case (Climate Change, ARBPIA, etc.) is a very poor precedent to base something as vaguely- and variously-defined and broadly-relevant as "civility" on. With any of those cases, the bounds of acceptable behaviour are more readily identifiable. If an account pops up spouting radical anti-Israel rhetoric and goes revert-happy on a page within the bounds of ARBPIA, these are clearly unacceptable behaviours in such a contentious topic area. In any ideologically-charged situation where there are distinct factions, it is fairly easy to identify and cull out those who feel too strongly about it to contribute productively. Agenda-pushers are low-hanging fruit. But civility? Nope. Not really. Nobody here is advocating for the right to call people an ass-hat with impunity. But one person's natural expression of frustration may be another's grave insult. How are you going to define that? Clearly there are identifiable extremes (e.g. WP:NPA), but there is a vast grey area that is almost entirely dependent on personal sensitivity and sensibility. And there isn't a way to fairly divide that area and slap black and white paint on either side of the divide. If editors are afraid to use even a slightly snippy phrasing because they fear sanction, you will have strangled the discussion environment of the project.

Moreover, the kind of civility pogroms that you propose tacitly condone civil POV pushers who pose far more of a threat to the integrity of the project. If your main priority is not defending the quality of the encyclopaedia but making sure nobody's feelings get hurt, you have created an environment where it becomes acceptable to push whatever fringe bullhockey you please as long as you do it nicely (AGF! AGF!). You will have destroyed the encyclopaedic worth of the project.

Civility may be one of the 5 pillars, but that does not preclude the existence of any design flaws in the architecture of the project. And besides, if you try and enforce a decree using a huge pillar, you're bound to crush many a bystander. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Carrite

I won't say this is much ado about nothing, because it has all sorts of juicy Wikidrama plots and subplots. I will say that Arbcom should give this one a miss and not take the case. There has been a lot of shrillness, but things seem to have worked themselves out without the need for a bitter 6 week case with 150,000 words of testimony and opinion. But one more thing — why are the Block Logs of the involved Administrators not visible with a single click the way as are the Block Logs of involved non-Administrators at the top of this page??? A template clearly needs to be fixed, there should not be different treatments given to different categories of involved parties. Thanks, —Tim //// Carrite (talk) 23:42, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Statement by 28bytes

What if they threw a festival dramatique de civilité and no one came? Be interesting to try it sometime. 28bytes (talk) 23:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Tijfo098

Nod to what Risker proposed: trouts al-round or nukes al-round. Tijfo098 (talk) 00:01, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Nick-D

A couple of things bother me here:

1. Malleus abusing Mark for performing a routine and well justified administrative task and not receiving a lasting sanction for it. Mark is an excellent and highly civil editor and admin in good standing, and in no way deserved to cop that kind of language for simply doing his job. I certainly don't condone the initial email he sent, but I can understand his frustration, and his subsequent conduct in relation to this matter has been exemplary.
2. Black Kite lifting Bongwarrior's block of Malleus after a mere 16 minutes of discussion, with no clear rationale for doing so given. His or her stated rationale posted at WP:AN was "This is clearly a bad (or at least excessive) block. Would any other editor have been blocked for a week for a mildly incivil edit summary after being provoked?" - this is a statement of opinion (I personally think that another editor with Malleus' history of rude comments would be blocked for such a duration), and is contradictory; the block can't be either 'bad' or 'excessive' - a 'bad' block is totally unjustified, while an excessive block is a block which is justified but where the sanction is too severe (and the correct approach to an excessive duration block is to, after discussion, reduce the duration rather than lift the block together). This kind of unclear rationale for rapidly lifting a block which was the subject of discussion on a central noticeboard is pretty poor conduct.

As I think that it's pretty clear that the admin corps is unable to manage the situation around Malleus' conduct (which isn't helped by the abuse some of his supporters pour on any admin who tries to intervene), the committee should accept this case. This isn't going to go away. Nick-D (talk) 00:39, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Beyond My Ken's suggestion (and their reasoning for this) that if a case is accepted here, it should focus solely on the actions of the involved editors and their histories, and not be another attempt to examine how to handle the rules around civility more generally. The 'civility enforcement' case earlier this year was something of a damp squib as the broad issue of civility isn't something the Committee is well placed to handle (even if it is within its remit) through a case, and the situation concerning Malleus is obviously rather unusual. This should also keep things simple; no-one appears to have disputed the chronology which Mark posted above, the subsequent admin actions are fairly clear-cut, and Malleus' positive and negative contributions were established in the previous case. Nick-D (talk) 08:01, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Short comment from The Blade of the Northern Lights

I don't normally bother to get involved in this, as I'm much more interested in dealing with real AE complaints over content (hey, who can argue that some of the I/P, AA, and ARBMAC articles aren't actually interesting to read?), but in this case I'll link to my comment here (permalink here. Note especially the second sentence of the second paragraph, which expresses the frustrations of an admin who wants the retarded bickering over whether one particular phrase is uncivil to just stop. I have my own view on how to handle that, but I'm not going to bother posting it here because I know people aren't interested in rational discourse on the matter. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:11, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment from My76Strat

I am inclined to ask ArbCom to reject this case. Nevertheless, while it is under consideration, I think Misplaced Pages:Administrators noticeboard#For the future is directly related and at minimum Avanu, and Beeblebrox should be added as parties to this case. I will next notify them that I mentioned there names here. Thank you. 76Strat  da _Broke da (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Confirmation that these parties are aware of this comment

• Avanu
• Beeblebrox
• I think the notion that we can't improve our collegial editing environment ranks in the top 3 most narcissistic things I have ever heard. All that is required to get it done is channeled directly to this page, right now. And all we would have to do is use our editing clue, and apply it as if the person we were writing to was a BLP subject and ask ourselves; "would that be allowed in someones bio?" If reasonably not; then BRD should apply. Meaning a good faith revert gets discussed before it goes back. The field levels in favor of producing quality documents. For example, I've asked Kiefer Wolfowitz to reduce his obfuscating text wall, which I think detracts from this discussion. I should not see Avanu's grief, if I shorten it myself summarizing wp:undue. The point is we already know what kind of prose is acceptable, let's quit pretending that we don't. And if we could edit these talk pages, the way we edit articles, we would end up with a much better product, and all the regulatory means are practically in place. 76Strat  da _Broke da (talk) 04:28, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment from Heim

The notion that ArbCom can really solve the problem of civility is just not grounded in reality. Sanctions can be handed out in this case, yes, and if we really must (though I would far prefer the trout route), take the case for that reason. Setting up procedures to enshrine civility blocks is wrong on so many levels: it amounts to writing policy, which is outside ArbCom remit; it's always going to be subjective (last year I was just taken aback by the people who thought it was wrong to call someone an "arse", but OK to call them "narrow-minded"; to me, the latter is clearly the more rude of the two); and it encourages gaming, just as Elen says (a great way for civil POV pushers to get enemies out of their way). Heimstern Läufer (talk) 03:26, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Steven Zhang

I would strongly encourage the Arbitration Committee to accept this case for a few reasons, but also with a qualifier. While the Arbitration Committee per policy does not create policy, it's decisions may interpret existing policy and create measures and processes to enforce these policies. It also falls under the scope of the committee as an intractible dispute that the community has been unable to resolve (the dispute being how to handle problems with incivility). The noticeboard method (being WQA) has been tried, tested, and binned. Uneven application of policy is the problem here, and I believe only the Arbitration Committee can guide here. I doubt that any decision made would be a popular one, but as members of the committee I doubt any of you sought election to be popular. Please accept this case and assist the community to bring some sanity to this long-standing issue. Steven Zhang 03:54, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Beyond My Ken

A few observations which the committee may or may not find useful:

• It seems generally agreed that Malleus is a valuable content creator whose work substantially improves the encyclopedia;
• It's been my observation, and this also seems to be generally agreed on, that Malleus is quite often uncivil and, in fact, seems to go out of his way to provoke incivility, to which he responds with more incivility;
• I have in my time suggested that Malleus "shut the fuck up", to which he responded that I should also "STFU";
• I don't know how Malleus felt about my remark, but I did not particularly take offense at his response;
• Because I work in the theatre, which is often a meritocracy in which artistic value is seen as justifying a difficult personality, I have no particular problem with a "double standard" in which valuable contributors are given more behavioral leeway than less productive editors - we are, after all, here to help build an encyclopedia, and Malleus does that, despite his drawbacks;
• The current contretemps seems like nothing more than a run-of-the-mill Malleus-related incident - the only real question would appear to be why Malleus felt it necessary to open an AN/I after he had already (snidely) accepted an apology;
• The answer to this question would appear to lie in Malleus' psychology, which is somewhat beyond the scope of the committee;
• Malleus' proclivity towards outbursts of incivility has been encouraged and enabled by the coterie of admins who will generally unblock him if other editors see fit to block him;
• This make anything involving Malleus a difficult case;
• In American law, it is said that "Difficult cases make bad law";
• If the committee, or, at least some of its members, is interested in setting standards for general incivlity, I suggest that any case involving Malleus is a bad starting point, because of his rather unique situation as a meritocratic-deserving editor protected by sympathetic admins;

The bottom line, then, is that taking on a case involving Malleus for the purpose of reviewing incivility policy is not a good idea, given all the peculiar circumstances surrounding him. The committee should accept the case only if it has the intention of dealing specifically with the behavior of the participants. If, instead, the purpose of the committee is to deal in a general way with uncivil behavior, this case is not the best starting point. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:14, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I see that I left out one important item: I would be in favor of the committee clarifying incvility policy so that there was a clearer standard which editors could aim to adhere to and admins could enforce. I believe the committee has the power to do that, since it would not be making policy, it would simply be interpreting the ur-policy Pillar #4. I simply do not believe that a case involving Malleus (or the several other "untouchable" editors) is a good starting point. That's as much an issue of practicality as anything else. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:27, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Short comment from The ed17

Blocking everyone would be completely punitive and useless. Ed  07:34, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Short comment from the frequently uncivil AndyTheGrump

What has this to do with creating and maintaining an online encyclopaedia? Not a lot from what I can tell. We don't have to like each other to contribute. We don't even have to pretend to like each other - it is arguably pointless to do this anyway, since we know it may be a pretence. Unless being rude to each other affects article content, it doesn't affect Misplaced Pages. On this basis, can I suggest that those who care about what our readers read go and write something for them, and those who don't, find some other platform for their obsessions. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:16, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Not so short comment from IRWolfie-

Incivility drives away other editors. It doesn't directly affect wikipedia articles, but it does do so indirectly. Malleus Fatuorum's block log makes for interesting reading, he is frequently blocked, but then another admin always seems to go and unblock him almost immediately. Why would he need to be civil when he's got such good friends? I think looking at this issue further is warranted, if Arbitration doesn't look at the issues the drama will continue with the next incident. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:41, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Taken from a recent RFA:

• "Perhaps "attack-like form" is a new weapon created by semi-literate children who really ought to be spending more time in school than here. Anyway, haven't you got school tomorrow yourself Zac?"
• "I've never found talking to blinkered fools to be a productive exercise, so, whatever."
• "Quite. Which marginalised group would be next on his radar if he was "promoted" to admin? Unpopular editors?"
• "I never suggested that you and Sigma were friends, I was simply musing on possible explanations for your dishonesty."
• "two can play that childish game cyberpower678, and it's hardly an "upgrade" unless you believe the closing bureaucrat to be an idiot"

. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:31, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Short comment from completely uninvolved Kerfuffler

I concur with IRWolfie-. I have no previous interaction with Malleus that I can recall, but looking at his edit history and block log, it's patently clear that the fourth pillar is not being maintained in his case, and the community has been ineffective at fixing that. —Kerfuffler  horsemeat
forcemeat  10:11, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

@Drmies: That argument fails for one clear reason: blocks are supposed to be preventative, not punitive. Nobody has any reason to believe Mark will commit further such actions, while they have every reason to believe Malleus will. Ergo, by policy, a block against Mark would be completely inappropriate. —Kerfuffler  horsemeat
forcemeat  05:21, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment from Worm That Turned

There's little I can say here, because I quite simply do not have time to look into the facts of the case. As such, I'm in no position to judge who said what to who and why. However, regarding the general case, I don’t see how Arbcom can do anything. Civility is a social construct, one which evolves within a group of peers and most certainly cannot be defined by a committee in one small corner of the internet. If you cannot define civility, any judgement is subjective and so any enforcement is not even-handed. Since even-handedness is valued so highly on Misplaced Pages, the only way to be even handed is to be draconian with sanctions, such as those Risker suggested. Who knows, it might work. The culture needs changing, and a culture shock might be the way to do it. Is it the right thing to do? No. The right thing to do is to change the culture of Misplaced Pages so it's naturally more civil. To do that, we first need to clearly define a civility policy, making it overly strict if necessary. Can we do that? Well, that’s what Arbcom asked of us 8 months ago… and I don’t see one yet. Worm(talk) 11:36, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment from Tarc

I believe that it is time for us to affirm the de facto reality in this project; civility enforcement is a failed ideal. It is only enforced against those who are unable to play the Misplaced Pages rules to their advantage, the new and/or the anonymous IP user, or those who simply don't have enough friends.

You cannot police the manners and etiquette of millions of anonymous users. Tarc (talk) 12:28, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

@Fozzie, show me a time in human history where draconian measures have actually worked in the long run. The euphoria you'd feel in the beginning as you righteously smite the n'er do wells into dust will soon fade as the reality sets in; this is all you will now ever do. Recall that the community just mothballed WP:Wikiquette assistance; it just doesn't work. Tarc (talk) 21:48, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Reply by Dr. Blofeld

@AndyTheGrump Agree completely. Focus on content not people folks!!♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:06, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

statement from Beeblebrox

Since ArbCom cannot make policy there is not much it can do about the broader issues at play here. The incident that sparked all this hysteria is pretty much done and over, so I don't see any point in accepting this case and think the idea of an epic round of trout slaps is a sufficient response that gives this incident the level of consideration it deserves. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:03, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

For the record I have just opened Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Civility enforcement. I have little hope that it will resolve these issues but since it is the community, not arbcom, who is charged with establishing standards and policies it is our only way forward as far as I can see. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:10, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Bullet points from Bbb23

• I was not involved in the WP:AN thread.
• ArbCom should not take this case per, in order of appearance, Nobody Ent, Dennis Brown, Rschen, MBisanz, Lothar, 28bytes (he didn't say it but I liked his comment), and Beeblebrox. Also, "bad facts make bad law" (dovetails with MBisanz's brief comment).
• Mark should be rewarded for his lucid summary of the events. He should also be rewarded for apologizing. Finally, he should be rewarded for making grammatical "errors", which permitted Malleus to point them out and probably appeased/pleased Malleus more than the apology. More seriously, he shouldn't be sanctioned for a lapse of judgment when there's absolutely no preexisting pattern of problematic behavior.
• Except for the long-term Malleus issues and the interminable discussions about civility, this "case" is over and should be declined.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:42, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment from tangentially involved Alexandria

Facepalm This again? Alexandria (chew out) 15:01, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment from uninvolved Ebe123

I think the case could be resolved by motion. Civility is an important policy on Misplaced Pages, and there should be more action to keep peace on-wiki. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 01:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Cla68

Just a comment on civility in general...the civility policy could and should be better and more evenly enforced. One reason it isn't is because there just aren't currently enough active administrators to deal with that and everything else that requires admin attention. What percentage of complaints currently brought to ANI get effectively addressed? 50%? 35%? So, even if ArbCom was to take this case and mandate that WP's admin corps tighten up on the civility enforcement, it would still be unevenly enforced. Therefore, this is a symptom of a deeper problem, which is not enough active administrators. Deal with the deeper, causitive problem first. Cla68 (talk) 04:33, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

@Drmies. Whenever admins do react to a civility situation, it seems like they are reinventing the wheel each time, because there aren't enough organizational inertia and custom to guide them. More active admins = more reactions to more situations over time, creating norms and customs, both in editor behavior and admin behavior, which makes future actions more routine and consistent. Furthermore, there are plenty of other instances of incivility that haven't been addressed. Cla68 (talk) 06:09, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Drmies

Totally involved, no doubt, in some ways, according to some people. I don't think the problem is not enough admins--it's rather a couple of too-active admins. The Malleus block was unwarranted, and that no one saw fit to block Mark Arsten on sight is telling. I wouldn't have blocked Mark, but I wouldn't have blocked Malleus either. Mark doesn't seem to have a pattern of flying off the handle, and he handled the fall-out well; still, it was a ridiculous outburst, and he doesn't need me to tell him that. At any rate, that no block on Mark was considered seriously only reinforces Malleus's widely-known and publicized impression that we admins (the generalization is accepted for rhetorical purposes) take care of our own in ways we don't take care of others. The perception there is an MF fanclub or a posse, of which I am probably a member, is easily explained by supposing its opposite, that there is a club of h8rs, and there are diffs to support that theory as well, real juicy ones. But that's just trying to fight fire with fire, or putting it out with gasoline--unhelpful.

I don't like civility blocks in the first place unless in extreme circumstances, and "arsehole" isn't extreme; I'm sitting on one and will call him out for it if needs be--an admin emailing an insult is much more serious. In many cases, a civility policy (ours or any other) is simply unenforcable and often no action is taken, and that's not the worst that could happen. I wish we (our elite corps of highly responsible admins, held to higher standards, supposably) were even more selective in our application of the current policy. In other words, ArbCom probably has better things to do than take this up. Drmies (talk) 05:18, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• @pablo, I agree with you on the grammatical issue, and I say that not to merely show my impeccable neutrality. Drmies (talk) 14:15, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
• Kerfluffler: "Nobody has any reason to believe Mark will commit further such actions, while they have every reason to believe Malleus will." That's putting the cart before the horse and it shows that you come to this with your mind made up. One wonders who "nobody" is and who "they" are. Drmies (talk) 17:03, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Veterinary diagnosis from pablo

I don't think this horse will be resurrected by further smiting. And there's nothing wrong with splitting an infinitive. pablo 08:03, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Littleolive oil

Misplaced Pages is not punitive. Misplaced Pages must be in the business of retaining editors and rehabilitating them if they make mistakes. If an admin with a good record makes a stupid mistake and humbly and sincerely apologizes, the community's job in this instance is done. Seems to me, we apply sanctions when editors are in danger of damaging or need a break from the project, when they refuse to fall into step with community standards after a mistake clearly indicating they may do the same again. Much of what I read here has to do with a punishment modality. Although we have to discriminate between the seriousness of the mistake and the damage it caused, more importantly what we have to see is how a good editor deals with a mistake and whether he or she can be absorbed back into the community in a productive way. If an editor cross's some line and treats another ediotr with disrespect either knowlingly or not, that he can apologize and recognize the mistake, creates a learning situation and environment.

If you deal with the mistakes made by a young human being with out any regard for how they have behaved in the past, a clue for how they will behave in the future, you will only end up with resentment. If that young person apologizes, and recognizes the mistake you have a better human being on your hands, more mature and better able in the future to handle whatever triggered the mistake in the first place. The same works for adults.

Civility is abstract, amorphous and how defined often based on cultural and social norms. What underlies it is respect and possibly kindness. What our civility policy lacks is an emphasis on wording which underlines that unless there is respect for other human beings there is no collaboration and no true community. Maybe until that time admins need more clearly defined guides for how to deal with an obvious lack of respect in one editor for another. At the same time delineating the mistake and how the editor responds to the mistake are critical elements in determining what best serves a community. Idealistic probably, and now, once again, climbing down off soapbox.

PS I am relatively tired of the phrase Arbitartion must have teeth, more aggressive language for what arbitration really needs and seems to me works hard to implement and that is discrimination. Calling for teeth is a bit like calling for the witch to be drowned, maybe we can say arbitration needs to have a cat's claws; they can drawn or withdrawn when then occasion calls for them. (olive (talk) 17:08, 3 October 2012 (UTC))

Comment by Sandstein

I'm happily uninvolved in all that has been going on, but I have a request. Could the ArbCom please start handing out lengthy bans to the habitually incivil users mentioned in this and similar cases? The community on its own is patently unable to ensure a civil and professional working environment, thanks largely to the second-mover unblock advantage that allows the enablement of persistently disruptive conduct by popular individuals by irresponsible administrators.  Sandstein  22:49, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by MLauba

If some of the committee's members are serious about enforcing civility more strictly, perhaps the first place to start would be to draw the line on respecting WP:CIV and WP:NPA in arbitration requests such as the present one. MLauba 07:53, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by MastCell

We don't know the best way to promote civility, but we know what doesn't work. Blocks don't make people more civil. ArbCom cases don't resolve civility problems (instead, they typically compound them by transforming potentially minor dust-ups into massive long-term grievances). We're using the wrong tools here. Trying to improve civility using blocks and ArbCom sanctions is like trying to put in a screw with a sledgehammer because we can't be bothered to look for a screwdriver.

Insofar as there's a "right" way to improve civility, it probably involves some combination of ignoring people (or otherwise indicating social disapproval) when they act like jerks, and modeling civil behavior ourselves. The latter is key, but it's also a lot harder than making sanctimonious pronouncements about civility or pressing the block button.

You don't need to look further than this request to see our typical hypocritical approach to civility on display. For example, you have an Arbitrator who moralizes that civility needs to be treated as importantly as BLP and copyright issues (). But when that Arbitrator personally encounters a challenging editorial interaction, he condescendingly suggests that the other editor must be mentally ill (, ). That's the problem - people are too ready to moralize when they're sitting in judgement of others, and too unwilling to actually live up to the standards they espouse and model civil behavior in their own interactions.

Perhaps it's not fair to single out that particular Arbitrator (although I sort of think it is, given the high profile of the position and the need to set a good example). But that sort of hypocrisy about civility is pandemic here, and it's why my immediate reaction is an eye-roll when Wikipedians talk about civility. People either need to hold themselves to the standards they demand of others, or make the same allowances for others that they make for themselves. Failing that, all the ArbCom cases in the world aren't going to advance the cause of civility. If the goal is to foster a more civil environment, then don't take this case. Instead, do your part in the community to model civility (or keep doing your part, as a lot of Committee members are excellent role models of civility). It will be a better use of time and effort. MastCell  18:00, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by The Devil's Advocate

So, looks to me like basically things played out like this:

• Malleus made a reasonable oppose vote on promoting an article to FA status, an article that really did need more work before it should be considered an FA.
• The editor nominating the article complains about Malleus at ANI over the discussion there, though there is no obvious incivility.
• Mark closes the ANI case with a comment about the oppose vote that apparently confuses Malleus as to the statement's intent/meaning.
• Malleus notes this using vulgar wording.
• Mark explains what he meant and apologizes.
• Mark leaves a talkback message.
• Malleus removes it because he doesn't like talkback messages.
• Mark leaves a regular comment asking Malleus to respond on Mark's page.
• Malleus says he sees no need to respond.
• Mark sends an angry e-mail, apparently frustrated with Malleus not responding to the comment on Mark's page.
• Mark sends another e-mail apologizing for the first e-mail and then says he will "stay away" from Malleus.
• Malleus complains about the first e-mail.
• Jtrainor tells Malleus to "grow a thicker skin" and accuses Malleus of deliberately provoking Mark in order to make a scene.
• Malleus calls that editor an arsehole and gets blocked for a week, but is quickly unblocked by Black Kite.

Not really seeing the need for another ArbCom case on Malleus. Maybe Mark wanted Malleus to acknowledge his apology and reciprocate in some fashion, but lashed out when Malleus did not. I think the situation is quite ridiculous and silly. Anyone trying to turn this into some massive controversy should be slapped with a wet fish.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:01, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by ThatPeskyCommoner

Fer Heavens' sakes, chaps and chapesses! Really, how pathetic is all this? Storm in a teacup doesn't even come close. Yay! Let's nuke London – it'll solve the litter problem! Pesky (talk) 17:01, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Adding: if anyone thinks it would be fair, even-handed or correct to ban Malleus for using swearwords (fuck, cunt, or arse) then absolutely everyone, first offence or not, should be treated exactly the same for using the exact same words. Personally, I think we could perhaps become a little less over-reactive to four-letter words. There are more important things in life to get our collective knickers in a twist over. Pesky (talk) 17:27, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by BorisG

I would like to comment on just one aspect of this saga. Many editors and at least one Arb have commented that it would be fruitless to accept the case because the question is one of policy, and ArbCom does not make policy. This position is misguided. This is not a question of policy, but a question of enforcement of an existing plicy. Not just policy, but one of the pillars. It is entirely within the ArbCom mandate to enforce it. The problem is that the community and ArbCom are split on whether this policy should exist (some say it failed, and others say it is ok but not enforceable). I am not sure we need this saga, and whether this case, if accepted, will prgress the issue of enforcement, but it is entirely within the Arbcom mandate to enforce it. - BorisG (talk) 15:53, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Coren

Can the Committee please take that blasted case and finally try to set down some ruling on whether the fourth pillar is should at last be taken out back and put out of its misery or if we're finally going to start to do something except gesture vaguely in its direction when it's convenient and wring our hands impotently the rest of the time?

Historically, the Committee (as a group) has done nothing but pay hollow lip service to civility – no doubt following the lead(!) of the community in so doing. Either we have a fourth pillar, or we do not. We need to stop pretending one way or the other eventually. — Coren  00:20, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by The Red Pen Of Doom

Anyone who saw this Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility_enforcement#Final_decision and had any reaction other than "We will be right back at the ArbCom with THIS case" is an idiot or a liar.

What do we expect from the ArbCom? Get a fucking backbone and "impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Anthonyhcole

The most effective thing you, ArbCom, could do to improve civility on this project is to exemplify it, and insist on it on the pages you control. One of you, at least, as Mast Cell has pointed out, cannot do the former and none of you does the latter. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:21, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• All editors are reminded to edit only in their own sections --Guerillero | My Talk 20:16, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (2/7/0/4)

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse/other)

• Awaiting statements, which ideally should address whether a useful outcome could result if a case is accepted, and if so, what it might be. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Frustrated aside. If, as is said, events occur first time as history and the second time as farce, what do we call the seventh time? The only novel issue here is whether we should place one or more of the parties on split infinitive parole.
  • More seriously, I am still waiting for concrete guidance from anyone on what they would actually like for the Committee to do if we accept this case. I don't think we would sanction Mark Arsten for what appears so far to be a one-time lapse from standards for which he apologized, and I don't envision a consensus to ban Malleus for this particular episode (although he should have known perfectly well that he was creating the very type of distraction from content creation that he claims to despise), so what would we do? I'm open to voting to accept if someone suggests a reasonable answer, but not otherwise. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:05, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Decline. This situation has blown over and I don't think it would be useful to rehash it for another month via a full case, and I can't possibly support the modest proposals that have been suggested for motions. I am of course frustrated by the fact that these situations keep arising (when I first saw this thread on AN, my reaction was that it must be a slow night on the noticeboards so they are putting on a re-run), and everyone concerned has really go to do better. See also my comments on the Civility RfC that Beeblebrox has opened. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
• Not even sure where to start with this. I have a few questions - principally what Alanscotwalker (or indeed anyone) is expecting to happen here. Why Malleus waited so long to start the AN is a more specific one. He's alluded to Mark Arsten sending another email, which one would presume was also offensive in some way to Malleus. Do we know what that one said? What else had Malleus said by email? Is there any evidence of Mark threatening to block Malleus, not just tell him to eff off and die or whatever? Does anyone think it a good idea to block Mark Arsten? Why did Bongwarrior think it a good idea to block Malleus, and why did Black Kite think it a good idea to unblock? My usual position is that when editors who interact regularly go off at the deep end with each other, trouts all round is all that is needed. I honestly think it's much less damaging to the project than say civil pov pushing (which so easily turns into civil button pushing - oh look, just got another editor out of my way). --Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Just to be clear (since Malleus has questioned it elsewhere) I was trying to work out why, having apparently accepted Mark's apology on Thursday, Malleus then reported him to AN on Sunday, and I wondered if there had been other emails in the intervening period, with no intended implication as to their content. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:39, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• • Decline Elvis has clearly left the building, and this isn't the case to start a civility pogrom over. If there is any chance that the community could manage a structured RfC without killing each other, Courcelles idea may have some legs.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
• While I generally agree with Elen that trouts all around would be generally applied in situations like this, after a while we have to realize that trouts just won't work. So, we're here.. and now we have to decide whether this is trout worthy, and whether a trout will solve the issues we're facing. SirFozzie (talk) 17:41, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
  • @Tarc: No, I'm not prepared to throw one of the five pillars of Misplaced Pages out the window. In fact, thinking about this over the last few hours.. I'm led to think the opposite. Perhaps its time that we came down on incivility really hard. We've tried every thing short of harsh measures.. perhaps it's time to be more then a little bit draconian. SirFozzie (talk) 17:35, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Tarc: Climate Change, for one. Also the Troubles (not saying I personally agree with every action taken in either of those areas, but harsh actions taken in those areas have lessened the drama). ANother example I can think of where dramatic, draconic action was taken where it seemed to work out pretty well is Scientology. It's not like it's unusual in history.. (how about Tacitus's famous line, famously requoted by RFK. "and where they make a desert, they call it peace." So, we apparently have two less then ideal extreme choices. One is to "make a desert and call it peace" in an area, and ban several useful people to the encyclopedia, in the name of improving the environment to BUILD the encyclopedia, and the other extreme is to throw out one of the five pillars Misplaced Pages is supposed to be built on, and that is civility. I find the first slightly less unpalatable then the second. I'm just looking for something short of it to solve the issues, and drawing a blank so far. SirFozzie (talk) 04:22, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
• decline - the situation had settled down (in a fashion), with the two original antagonists moving on, when it was revived again on Jimbo's talk page. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:14, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
• Awaiting statements, but I intend to vote for accepting this request. In Civility enforcement, we released an extensive collation of advice about fair criticism, involved and uninvolved administrators, and civility; we also made a general reminder to administrators (about precisely this sort of project-space drama) and admonished Malleus about his conduct. Evidently it was inadequate to give a narrative, advisory decision, and the community may require more effective action—frankly, for too long has this type of thing has been stealing our editors' time. However, I withhold my vote (for now) because I don't imagine rushed action will serve a modicum of good, and because I would like to hear thoughts from more of the community about the usefulness of arbitration to the present dispute. AGK 20:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• Decline at this time. However, I think we would have to take into account, in any subsequent request for arbitration about the disputants in the current matter, the unprofessional stirring up of unhelpful drama by certain disputants that we have observed here this week. I am certain that some of the disputants are directly contributing to the negative, uncollegial atmosphere that plagues Misplaced Pages today, and in my mind site-banning is the only remedy that could realistically neutralise the problem posed by the presence of these editors on the English Misplaced Pages. Also, as was suggested above, it may well be a good idea to open a general reflection on civility might be a good idea: I do not believe this committee ever intended to lead that reflection through an arbitration case. AGK 17:11, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Accept This is not about Malleus or Mark or any one particular admin or editor, it's about the fourth pillar and the abject and long-standing failure of the community to uphold it. It's really time to implement civility remedies with the same relative level of importance and expectation of adherence as our BLP and copyright policies, as uncomfortable as that may be. I'd even be willing to stipulate, prior to opening, that no individual sanctions will be forthcoming, if that's what it takes to help the community establish a clear set of expectations for all that can be applied going forward. And yes, I know the committee has failed to do so multiple times in the past; maybe now is the right time. Jclemens (talk) 20:28, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
• I see two options here, neither of which are an Arbcom case. Since the entire episode is encapsulated in a single WP:AN thread, there is no evidence to collect and no workshopping to do. Instead, we can go with a single, all–encompassing motion as follows:
  • Malleus Fatuorum and Jtrainor are blocked for six months for incivility. Mark Arsten is blocked for six months for incivility. . Mark Arsten is desysopped for conduct unbecoming an administrator. Bongwarrior is desysopped for making an egregiously bad block of one party in an uncivil exchange while failing to give even a warning to the second party, when the matter was already under discussion at an administrator's noticeboard and and Bongwarrior himself acknowledged that the block was controversial.

Or we could do trouts all around, as follows:

• • Malleus Fatuorum is trouted for crying into his beer about a non–public insult for which he had already received an apology.
  • Mark Arsten is trouted for using Wikimedia email to insult a user.
  • Jtrainor is trouted for incivility and deliberately provocative behaviour. He should consider himself very lucky not to have been blocked.
  • Bongwarrior is trouted for making an egregiously bad block of one party in an uncivil exchange while failing to give even a warning to the second party, when the matter was already under discussion at an administrator's noticeboard and Bongwarrior himself acknowledged that the block was controversial.

So folks....which way should it be? Should we shoot EVERYONE, or just say that the matter is resolved with trouts all around? Risker (talk) 23:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

The simplicity of either option has its appeal, Risker, but I think we're called upon to solve the things that the community has tried and failed to solve itself. Sanctioning the users involved here per your initial proposal would be just... but would it actually accomplish anything for the wider community as a whole? No, rather than blocks or trouts, what I think we need to do is hammer out (in public, with community input) and issue some principles, expectations, and expected consequences for the next time something like this crops up. Jclemens (talk) 23:25, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Jclemens, the community has resolved this. The WP:AN thread is closed. If you want to build a civility policy to your liking, Arbcom cases are not the place to do it. Every one of those I've named above has crossed an existing civility or admin action line. We either sanction them or we don't. If we sanction them, then we already know that shorter civility blocks are completely ineffective and normally result in the blocked editor becoming more uncivil, so giving a short block is almost guaranteed to result in greater disruption in the future. And the only way to stop cowboy adminship (or behaviour unbecoming an admin) is to remove those tools. So, if you want to make it a lesson, go for the motion: I'm pretty sure it will have a greater effect than a two-month-long case that resolves nothing will have. Risker (talk) 23:34, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

If I was going to go for a single motion to improve civility on the project, it would be something along the lines of "Civility blocks placed by any administrator may only be overturned by a consensus of uninvolved administrators at the Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard. Administrators believed to be abusing civility blocks shall be referred to the committee for review." You're looking at a specific case; I'm looking for a structural reform. How can we best change the environment to stop this from happening every month or two? It's not just about Malleus, but about the culture that tolerates incivility and excuses it--or worse, applies it inconsistently and haphazardly. Jclemens (talk) 00:57, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

And in what way would six-month civility blocks on all three uncivil users not give exactly the same message? That would, indeed, set the standard for civility blocks. (And again, everyone knows that short civility blocks do not have a positive effect and almost always lead to greater incivility down the road.) Frankly, Bongwarrior's block was the worst part of this entire episode, not so much because he blocked Malleus, but that he blatantly ignored the incivility of Jtrainor in order to block Malleus over a matter that was already being discussed on the Admin noticeboard. Note the italics: he was superimposing his personal opinion over that of the community already discussing the situation, most of whom were admins — and he knew it was controversial. There was absolutely no reason for him to make that block without consultation in advance; a better solution would have been to remove Jtrainor's and Malleus' comments and warn them both. Frankly, if we were to pick out one thing amongst all of these events that should result in a sanction, this would be the one. And for the record, in my mind, the number two would be using the Wikimedia email function to verbally abuse another editor; we usually block with email access disabled for that. Risker (talk) 01:08, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't disagree with your assessment of the specifics of the case; like I said, I would support your first suggestion. I would rather that the outcome give a bit more guidance than that--While the intended outcome would be clear to you and me, it's been brought to my attention (e.g., post Timid Guy case) that editors who are not intimately involved in the arbitration process may not know what to make of our penalizing specific folks, hence my desire for explicit guidance, vs. inferred guidance from penalties issued. Jclemens (talk) 01:29, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

So we need to go through two months of a steady stream of incivility (which pretty much characterizes most of our case pages) when the evidence is already immediately available and there is nothing new to add, to say "don't be uncivil"? That's already what the civility policy says. Six month blocks all around for incivility will make the point, without all the vacillation that happens when we get to the proposed decision long after everyone's forgotten what really happened. Risker (talk) 01:36, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Fundamentally, hearing unpleasant cases is what all of us signed up to do: even in the throes of election season, even with some inactive teammates. You think this can be handled without one; I think a case is the best way forward, and we'll see how the rest of the committee stands on it. Having said that, I don't agree that the historical unpleasantness is necessary; the fact that we as a body have tolerated it is itself a problem that I would not like to see repeated. Jclemens (talk) 02:04, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

No, Jclemens, hearing unpleasant cases is not what we signed up to do: we signed up to be the people who stop the dispute in its tracks. When we don't need cases to do that, we should not do that. As to the historical unpleasantness, it is essentially impossible to have a case about incivility without discussing and providing tons of examples of incivility. Of course, we could just take my suggestion of blocking for six months everyone who is uncivil, but then that would negate the point of having a case. Risker (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

• Decline. After extensive review, and observing the community response with Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Civility enforcement, I believe that before any particular direction is taken here by the Arbitration Committee, we ought to listen to what the community has to say. Indeed, I encourage more of my colleagues (some of whom hold strong views on this topic) to actively participate in the RfC. It would be valuable to both the community and the Committee to have the positions of individual arbitrators clearly articulated in the RfC so that all can gauge the extent of support for the range of views that are held by members of the Committee. This information may be particularly helpful if, as is entirely possible, the topic of civility returns as a major factor in a case request in the future. Note that I do not feel that participating in an RfC would in any way affect the ability of arbitrators to adjudicate a future case in a disinterested way. Risker (talk) 23:07, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• Accept. The incident starts here. And that was allowed to pass without sanction because we didn't do enough here to ensure that Malleus curbed his incivility. I feel partly responsible because I could see that the solutions in that case were not tackling the issues, and I didn't put forward a suitable remedy. We cannot let this incident pass because we cocked up last time and we're a bit embarrassed about it. That many of us like Malleus and appreciate what he can do should not hinder us from taking this case and hammering out a solution to prevent this sort of thing from happening in future. If someone has been admonished for uncivil conduct, and then repeats that behaviour such that we have a disruptive mess, we have to deal with it and do more than offer to wave wet fish about. And we also shouldn't dismiss out of hand the blocking and the unblocking. There is a mess here that should not be swept under the carpet. SilkTork 00:51, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi SilkTork, in what way does my proposal not address your concerns? If incivility is a problem, it's a problem with Malleus' chronicity, Jtrainor's baiting, and Mark Arsten's abusing Wikimedia email. (I don't buy the "first offense" stuff, if people want a line in the sand then the same sanctions should apply regardless. That way we significantly discourage first offenses.) I'm not sweeping anything under the carpet; in fact, I'm putting it out there in the sunshine, along with the expectations for administrators. Why do we need to spend two months discussing this? Risker (talk) 01:24, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Adding here, short of either an indefinite or a time-limited ban for Malleus (both of which you opposed), I'm not sure what other sanctions you would have suggested in the prior case. We topic-banned him from the area where he was behaving most egregiously and we admonished him generally for his incivility. (link to prior decision) So what other proposed sanctions do you have in mind? Risker (talk) 02:34, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Personally I'm not currently leaning toward accepting, but for the record, it is at least theoretically possible that we could (1) take the case, and (2) decide it in less than two months. :) Granted that's not how it usually goes with this sort of case, but we could try if we wanted, and I for one would certainly want. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:31, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I understand your desire, Newyorkbrad; however, the level of inactivity in several of our members, the distaste almost everyone on the committee has for even so much as reading the internecine warfare on workshop pages, and the fact that half the committee is about to be distracted by the community's discussion of the next Arbcom elections, leads me to believe that two months may be a conservative estimate. Risker (talk) 01:41, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

The first of your proposals would be a huge net negative. This is an encyclopedia not a social club. We live in the real world and folks have dust ups and then get on with things. This is what was happening here. Other folks who re unhappy with civility enforcement in either direction will complain loudly. Much like notability, there is a tidal mark which works alot of the time. Any further attempt to fine-tune it will be fruitless and use up waht limited time we could be working on other issues. Note alot the discussion was done by people who had no role in the original dispute. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:50, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

• There is a long thread on the ArbCom email forum about this incident - a number of Committee members are strongly discussing the matter, and there is a fair amount of disagreement. The very fact that there is this protracted discussion and clear disagreement between Committee members indicates to me that we need a case to openly discuss the situation. I don't think we can reach an appropriate solution on the hoof, and time is needed. If we don't do it now we'll have to do it at some point. There are several issues here:

1) Malleus

2) Civility

3) Blocking and unblocking

These three things will crop up again - individually and together.

If we look at these issues and try again to find a solution and fail, so be it. We can try again later. But if we don't even try to sort out this problem then we are sending a message to the community:

1) We can't handle the situation

2) We don't think the issue is important enough

3) We don't want to do it (too much effort or time or because elections are coming up)

4) We actually feel it's OK for valued contributors to behave badly

5) Pull yourselves together - aren't you strong enough to handle a bit of incivility?

At the heart of this is a user who has been sanctioned by ArbCom for incivility. He has been uncivil again, and as a result we have this situation. If we ignore that, then ArbCom has no teeth, and we might as well pack it in.

As well as looking at Malleus we also need to closely examine and come to some consensus as to the conduct of the other parties. It is possible that after several months discussion that the end result will be Risker's sanctions all round - so be it; however, I would rather we reached that point after considered discussion than now in the heat of the matter, when the Committee are still divided and unsure, and before we have looked at the possibility of other solutions. I don't like the idea of preventing one of our most valued contributors from building the encyclopedia, but nor do I like the idea of simply shrugging it off when he causes this much waste of time and energy. Let's consider solutions: topic ban Malleus from everywhere except mainspace, his own talkpage, and FAC; ban Malleus from using swear words - fuck, cunt, arse, etc. Put civility blocks under AE, and ensure they can only be imposed by consensus, and only removed by consensus. There should never be a need to impose or remove a civility block so urgently that it cannot wait for a discussion. If a user is running amok on Misplaced Pages calling everyone a cunt, then that is disruption. Block them. But an insult in an edit summary can wait for a discussion. We need to reach agreement on an admin using Misplaced Pages email to insult someone. As Risker has pointed out on the ArbCom email forum, we tend to indef and remove talkpage and email facility from users who do that. However we need to take into account mitigation. This stuff takes time and evidence. We need a case. SilkTork 08:52, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Well said, but we appear to be a minority of two. Jclemens (talk) 02:04, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• Decline, considering summary "block everyone" motion - This should have been dealt with in Civility enforcement. Since it wasn't, and lo and behold we're here again, I find myself rather agreeing with Risker here, or rather her first option - banhammers all around, because people don't listen. If draconian measures are necessary to ensure that people on this project can speak to one another with even the slightest bit of respect, then so be it. Unfortunately, I do not see what can be gained from a full case here. We tried that with Civility enforcement and clearly it failed. The main problem is that we have no way to enforce novel, effective solutions to the Civility Problem, largely because we have no way of drawing a firm line in the sand to say when a particular comment is and is not civil. The context of a situation can easily move that line to be closer or further away from blatant incivility, and yet it seems there are some users who are skilled in being able to spot the line so they know how far they can go without crossing it - or at least crossing it far enough that there isn't someone who would unblock them. A few (bad) ideas spring to mind, but all are unequally unworkable:
  • Requiring all administrators to refrain from blocking any user who is the subject of a noticeboard discussion without first obtaining consensus for the block - Will only serve to cause more drama, and creates problems when an admin sees what they think is a blockable edit on some unrelated page, only to find out later it was being discussed on ANI.
  • Limiting participating in discussions of incidents at ANI or AN to administrators and those editors directly involved in the dispute - This would NEVER fly in the first place, and even if it did would only move discussion elsewhere, disenfranchise community members, prevent collaboration, and further distance us from the concept that adminship is "no big deal".
  • Set up an edit filter to flag edits that contain potentially uncomplimentary words or phrases - First, this treats our own editors like vandals, and secondly, the English language is nothing if not remarkably inventive in the means with which it allows one person to insult another.
  • Go all Big Brother/Civility Dictator on everyone and have administrators block any editor that makes a comment that could be construed in any way and to any degree as insulting, degrading, offensive, and/or sarcastic - ...and find that there's nobody left to edit the project or even issue those blocks.

If anyone has any better ideas, I'm all ears. Until then, play nice, for fuck's sake avoid drama, and go back to editing. Hersfold 05:39, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

• Decline - I agree with Casliber that the situation had calmed down, and I think it could again. I'm intrigued by Hersfold's suggestion of blocking everyone, but similar to one of the options outlined by Risker, I'd prefer just to WP:TROUT everyone instead. PhilKnight (talk) 12:52, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
  • I think you're being somewhat humorous, but just to clarify - I mean Risker's first option of "block these users for six months for incivility, desysop those admins for these reasons" plan. Although literally blocking everyone would be astonishingly effective at solving civility problems. Hersfold non-admin 19:51, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
• Really... what do y'all want us to do? Civility is an issue the community is split on, and ArbCom isn't here to settle great questions of policy. Say we take the case, and hand out a few sanctions of some form (to whom and how severe hardly matters for this argument), the underlying issue is one that, at absolute best, we would be able to launch an RFC on to settle in the vein or Ireland, Abortion, etc. At the end of the day, the "civility question" won't be answered until the community answers it -- short of the downright radical idea above of making all civility blocks AE blocks (and I suspect that would stop the reversals mostly, but more largely move the drama from ANI to AE) there's not likely to be answers coming out of any case, and without an underlying solution, this whole kit and caboodle is on repeat with different players. All this has happened before, and all this will happen again. Sorry for the "no actual vote" ramble.. I'll read everyone's comments again tomorrow, but another three month mess where after everything is said we vote on sanctioning everyone involved is beyond worthless. Courcelles 04:56, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
  • To perhaps put that another way, I think Beeblebrox is on the right track, and that this thunderstorm in a teacup is hardly worth dragging out until December. Of Risker's two "solutions", one shoots everyone and serves no one (as I think she well intended), and the other is far more proportionate to this dust-up, but leaves the broader issue unresolved. I wonder if a simple motion asking for a broad examination of civility in a structured RFC might be far more useful than a case. Courcelles 05:01, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Decline the central issue is something the community has finally taken up in Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Civility enforcement, may it run well. That can handle the central issues here, or give the Committee a firm base on which to act if we do end up with another similar case request. That said, the admin conduct here was horrid, and Bongwwarrior and Black Kite should both consider themselves lucky to not be formally admonished (or worse) over this block/unblock cycle. Cowboy adminship, either with the action or the undoing of an action, has got to end. Courcelles 23:41, 10 October 2012 (UTC)