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Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Tijfo098 (talk) 09:42, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

• Paul Magnussen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Sirswindon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• InigmaMan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm filing this as a single request because there is little difference in their behavior and position. In some cases, one editor deletes content and another from this group then presents long argumentation in support of deletion on the talk page.

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

R&I discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

The case comes down to removal of material cited from secondary, academic sources, followed by long diatribes posted on the talk page which seldom address any particular content, except in their arbitrary conclusion(s). I invite admin to read the whole talk page, but here are some examples:

User:Paul Magnussen:

1. block-delete with edit summary "Removing unreferenced POV material" (which was not unreferenced) supported by the following line of argumentation:
2. Furthermore, the terms "extreme right" and "extreme left" have become so confused and emotionally loaded and to become effectively meaningless.
3. 'Right' (in this sense) is a POV term, now reduced to little more than a term of abuse
4. his politics are irrelevant as what he had for breakfast
5. I haven't noticed you leaping up and down about Leon Kamin or Stephen Jay Gould, whose politics apparently did dictate their science…
6. Supposing that your characterisation of these publications is correct and that Prof. Eysenck did actually write for them (as opposed to allowing publication of previously-written material), have you considered the possibility that he would write for anyone who paid his fee? Apparently not.
7. What would you say the are characteristics of the Extreme Right? Beating up the opposition, refusing to allow them to speak, threatening their children?
8. His scientific views are not in dispute. All that's been produced on his political views is name-calling and unsupported inference.
9. calling anyone "right-wing" is POV ipso facto.
10. You said (above) that we don't define terms. Could you tell me where to find the definitions we're using for "far right" and/or "extreme right"? They seem to me to be weasel words — specifically, just vague terms of abuse.
11. Another removal of content, presumably explained by:
12. 6Kb of text. Apparently, the argument is that although Eysenck has written several books about the genetics-intelligence link, we can't exemplify or discuss their content in his biography, even when secondary sources do that. Go figure. This long post also appears to be written with the intent to support the deletion of material performed by Sirswindon in diff #8 below.

User:Sirswindon:

1. Deletion of material based on secondary sources as "hearsay"
2. repeat
3. claims the ref fails WP:V Text in original (German) is "In der April-Ausgabe der rechtsextremen Nationalzeitung von 1990 schreibt Eysenck einen Artikel, in dem er Sigmund Freud der Verschlagenheit und mangelnder Aufrichtigkeit zeiht, wobei zugleich auf Freuds jüdische Herkunft verwiesen wird."
4. Pure denialism or more sophistry? You decide. Perhaps the author-publisher relationship is not a relationship.
5. Appeals to Misplaced Pages definition of right-wing, just like the SPA InigmaMan (see its own section below).
6. False dichotomy: "All or None".
7. Advances his own prophecy.
8. Deletes content claiming it's not in the source. Quote given here. Offered chance to self-revert there too. Not taken insofar.

User:InigmaMan (a WP:SPA):

1. "Eysenck did not publish articles, the newspaper published them"
2. Red herring. The article at the time did no say Eysenck was Far-right. It said "He wrote the preface to the book "Das unvergängliche Erbe" by Pierre Krebs, a far-right French writer, which was published by Krebs' Thule-Seminar."
3. Quotes the Misplaced Pages article on far-right as an WP:OR argument to disprove what the sources said.
4. Continues the same argument.

-- Tijfo098 (talk) 09:42, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

And Sirswindon continues:

1. deletes the passage again
2. explained by my IQ somehow?

-- Tijfo098 (talk) 01:41, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

Statement by Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

Paul Magnussen

Not much to add. I'm fairly familiar with Eysenck's work. I've tried to keep the article in line with Misplaced Pages principles, notably Reliable Sources and no POV material. Distortions of fact and name-calling are (it seems to me) not Reliable.

As secondary objective, I've also tried to keep the article balanced and to an appropriate size.

Of course, I'm not saying I haven't made any mistakes, although I've tried not to. Paul Magnussen (talk) 17:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I should also add that I am not a sock-puppet: this is my real name, and I can provide evidence of this should it be required. Paul Magnussen (talk) 17:35, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Question

Please can someone explain why what was put in the article about Freud relates to the subject of this section of the article: In the National Zeitung he reproached Sigmund Freud for alleged trickiness and lack of frankness by reference to Freud's Jewish background. -- Sirswindon (talk) 17:20, 18 October 2012

1. Leonie Knebel and Pit Marquardt (2012). "Vom Versuch, die Ungleichwertigkeit von Menschen zu beweisen". In Michael Haller and Martin Niggeschmidt (ed.). Der Mythos vom Niedergang der Intelligenz: Von Galton zu Sarrazin: Die Denkmuster und Denkfehler der Eugenik. Springer DE. p. 104. doi:10.1007/978-3-531-94341-1_6. ISBN 978-3-531-18447-0.

Comments by others about the request concerning Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

It's a question of neat sourceswork. First the sources been doubt. Some of the sources I presented were in german. It's okay for me to doubt them. But they don't even doubted the german sources. They claimed all sources estimated Eysenck as far-right supporter, and there are several sources how do that, are not reliable. A reproach beyond good and evil. When other authors supported the sources they begin to downplay the statements of the sources. The peak of this activities was to change the heading from "Alleged relationships with far right groups" to "Relationship with right-wing groups". A description was not supported by only one single source. The argumentation is nothing but sophistry. If you really want to understand theirs procedure, you have to read the hole talk-page. It begins with the blanket denying of ALL sources to admire in archive of the talk-page. And ends with the downplaying of statements of these and other sources.

My favorite counterargument is: "I personally knew Eysenck for over 40 years," (but never take notic that he supported far-right groups), by user sirswindon.

The several sources make a clear statement about Eysenck and the far-right. Of course you can dabate specific statements in the text of the article. But you can't debate the essence of the sources. That's the point a POV-War begins and the balance of our article is endangered. Especially in this issue (race & intelligence).

Of course it's possible to have a debatte for the next years till one side showes signs of fatigue or give up. But it would be better to have a serious discussion about facts and not about (I personally know Eysenck for 40 y. and I know better than those socialist sources) fiction. It's possible to have a sources-based discussion. If anybody wants to. --WSC 06:51, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Appeal against thread hijacking. I understand there is a dispute on another R&I article, but it doesn't seem to (currently) involve any of the editors involved in the Eysenck article (unless someone has discovered who InigmaMan is, but I haven't seen that above). I suggest that a different report be filed about the YvelinesFrance, Zeromus1 and The Devil's Advocate issue. Thanks. Tijfo098 (talk) 07:42, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

That seems fair enough. The Devil's Advocate did not like my parenthetic remark. Mathsci (talk) 10:22, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Paul Magnussen, Sirswindon, and InigmaMan

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• At the moment I don't see anything that AE should do. InigmaMan is an SPA and might be a sock, but has not edited Misplaced Pages since 2 October. On 15 October there was almost an edit war between Tjfo098 and Sirswindon regarding inclusion of a quote from Barnett, but that now seems to have quiesced. I was expecting to see a terrible article that was full of charges and countercharges, given the tendency of R&I matters to unhinge people's judgment. But now that I actually look at the Hans Eysenck article I feel it is reasonably balanced. It gives a fair hearing to some views of Eysenck that appear to be out of the mainstream. I suggest that this AE request be closed with no action. EdJohnston (talk) 15:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
• Is there an SPI report? T. Canens (talk) 18:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• I'm withdrawing my opinion that InigmaMan could be a sock, after reviewing his contributions. The net effect of InigmaMan seemed to be to make the article slightly more balanced. Our readers can still make up their own minds whether to condemn Eysenck for the company that he kept. It's not unheard of for someone to be so convinced of their own rectitude that they don't care how something looks to others. (E.g. Eysenck secretly taking funds from tobacco companies: "As long as somebody pays for the research I don't care who it is.") Those who believe that Eysenck held far-right political views would be on safer ground if they can quote him expressing such views. His strong opposition to Nazism is hard to reconcile with some of the criticism. EdJohnston (talk) 19:36, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• Unarchived. T. Canens (talk) 09:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate

User making enforcement request

• Mathsci (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Users against whom sanctions are being requested

• Zeromus1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

recently enacted WP:ARBR&I motion concerning enabling edits by banned editors () as well as the remedies of the recent review that refer to TrevelyanL85A2

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Trolling IP socks of Echigo mole blocked at WP:SPI
2. The Devil's Advocate declares people should chat to TrevelyanL85A2
3. Zeromus1's reaction to Echigo mole's trolling
4. Zeromus1 decides he can enable the trolling even after being told it's a malicious wikihounder and that I am recovering from open heart surgery
5. Zeromus1 refers to Echigo mole as "someone commenting in his user talk space" knowing full well this is the banned editor Echigo mole. He invites The Devil's Advocate to join him in an RfC/U on me. He knows I am acutely ill.
6. The Devil's Advocate himself threatens to open an RfC/U on me on behalf of the AE banned editor TrevelyanL85A2, having received an email from TrevelyanL85A2 requesting that he do so following TrevelyanL85A2's block.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. One of several warnings to Zeromus1
2. The Devil's Advocate has been warned on multiple occasions by arbitrators and senior adminitrstaors about his conduct vis-a-vis TrevelyanL85A2 and Echigo mole. He has ignored all those warnings. Here is a latest example from User talk:MastCell.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Comment TDA has claimed that TrevelyanL85A2's arbcom sanctions and his AE block are due to me rather than the conduct of TrevelyanL85A2 himself. Statements like that, which have now degenerated to rants, are in direct contradiction to decisions first of arbitrators and then of administrators at AE. Since TDA has been continuing to make statements of this kind for close on three months, even after warnings, why should he be surprised in any way at all that there should now be consequences? Mathsci (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Further comment Here is some additional off-wiki chronology which might place The Devil's Advocate's "popping up" in a more realistic context than the one he has suggested. Sept 28, nocturnal pains later diagnosed as heart attack. Sept 29, 30 repetition of the same. Oct 1 advised by nurse friend to go immediately to A&E ward of UCL. Oct 2 admitted and not permitted to leave hospital because of severe heart condition and high blood pressure. Oct 4 echocardiagram. Oct 5 angiogram at Heart Hospital. Oct 8 triple bypass operation. Oct 13 discharged to convalesce. Oct 15 receive hate mail through wikipedia mailing system, apparently from DeviantArt group or other disgruntled editors, threatening to make my real life a misery. Mathsci (talk) 22:03, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Additional comment The Devil's Advocate has resumed his disruptive interpretation of my editing that formed a large part of his output in July and August, when the motions were under discussion. More disturbingly Zeromus1 and The Devils' Advocate have today made it clear that they intend to continue editing effectively as proxies of TrevelyanL85A2 in pressing for an RfC/U. Here is Zeromus1's latest suggestion, before he's even made 200 edits to wikipedia.: "At what point do you think an RFC/U will be appropriate?" And here is The Devil's Advocate's response: "Personally, I think it is appropriate to wait at least until the AE case is resolved." That seems to be yet another quite unambiguous statement of their joint intent to continue the disruptive campaign of the editors site-banned under WP:ARBR&I. In July and August when the motions were formulated, The Devil's Advocate pushed his own disruptive counterproposals in an evasive but ultimately unsuccessful way. It's no different here: on the basis of his past conduct, very little credibility can be attached to The Devil's Advocate's assurances that his statements about RfC/U's are merely a matter of politeness and show no intent. The latest posting of Zeromus1 indicates that he wants to use the RfC/U as sort of private star chamber to right various injustices. He writes, "In addition to the current issue involving you and Cla68, I think an RFC/U about Mathsci also should cover some of the editors he pursued before I came on the scene, such as Ludwigs2, Miradre and SightWatcher." It must have dawned on Zeromus1 that the kind of disruptive vigilantism he is proposing will only get him banned from wikipedia. The Devil's Advocate's reponse was evasive , presumably because he knows that going down that highly disruptive path can only lead to a site-ban. The Devil's Advocate nevertheless is still saying that I have to be "dealt with" in some way: he has tied himself to TrevelyanL85A2's disruption-only campaign. There lies his error. He appears to have committed himself to the revenge campaign of Captain Occam. If Zeromus1 is now mentioning Ludwigs2, a site-banned edtor and one of Captain Occam's heros, that places more questionmarks next to Zeromus1's prior editing history on wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 04:11, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate

Statement by Zeromus1

I haven't restored any edits by Echigo Mole, and in the fourth diff linked to by Mathsci, I said that I'm not going to. I haven't violated the restriction, and I don't intend to violate it. One thing I find strange is that a few minutes before he made this report, Mathsci edited the restriction in question to change what it links to. His edit is here. He seems to have edited the arbitration ruling just to make it easier to accuse us of violating it.

I am troubled by the lengths Mathsci goes to to pursue editors who have opposed him on R&I articles, even after they have disengaged from the topic, because he's given a lot of indications I'll soon be subject to this myself. I don't see what his heart condition has to do with that.

If Mathsci is concerned about the effects of Misplaced Pages on his health, I think an important question is whether this report and his other recent activity really is what's best for him. If he's concerned about that, why doesn't he spend a few weeks away from Misplaced Pages while he recovers? He could go for a walk in the countryside, read a book, watch a movie, or all three. And if he can do those things without thinking about Misplaced Pages, I promise it'll make him feel a lot better than what he's currently doing. This page seems relevant. I'm sure that if I did something terrible while he's taking a break, someone else would report it, and someone else also would eventually block Echigo Mole's sockpuppets. I don't know what to make of his insistence that he needs to do all these things himself, except that maybe he cares too much about Misplaced Pages to do what seems like it would be best for him. Zeromus1 (talk) 07:56, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

The restriction Mathsci is citing only applies to restoring reverted edits by banned editors connected to this topic area. I have restored no such edits, nor has Zeromus as far I as I know. Mathsci is completely misrepresenting the nature of that restriction. His characterization of my actions is likewise so obscenely distorted that it would take a voluminous amount of material to point out of every single error. Suffice to say, the cited diffs clearly do not say what he suggests they say and in a response on my own talk page I said I do not want to pursue an RfC/U at this time. This request is completely frivolous.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci you initiated all this recent discussion by going after me in an unrelated AE case directly above this one. You mentioned Zeromus there as well, so there is nothing inexplicable about this situation. All I did was rebut your accusations and ask you to stop hounding me.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 14:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

@T.Canens An interaction ban would just create pointless drama and sanction me without good cause. I think you should just close this with a warning to Mathsci about hounding. Anything else would just give this complaint far more credibility than it deserves.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

NW, I don't think anyone at the talk page for R&I will seriously suggest that my participation there has been disruptive and, in fact, we have been gradually working towards consensus on contentious wording. Mathsci is just going after me for the same old stuff he has been going after me for since I objected to his conduct towards Trevelyanl and suggested that he be admonished for it, not sanctioned as he says. No one gave his objections much attention despite him leaving a long screed about me on the request for amendment that I essentially ignored, going after me in three separate AE cases before this one, a completely unrelated WQA, and a BLPN discussion he initiated about another completely unrelated article that was again not taken seriously by any editor. For the past few weeks, following the request for amendment, I have completely left Mathsci alone and barely thought of the man. I only got sucked back into a dispute with Mathsci now because he tried to hijack an AE thread directly above to go after me, see the collapsed section in that request.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:51, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, that is not even close to a reasonable interpretation of my comments. I said that you have been going after me for objecting to your conduct towards Trev. During that AE case that got Trev blocked, one admin at AE called out your conduct as inappropriate.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:07, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Are you guys really not seeing what Mathsci is doing? He pops up all of a sudden, weeks after we last interacted, to accuse me of tag-teaming and meat-puppetry in some parenthetical remark on another AE case that had nothing to with me because I somewhat agreed with a position some other editors took on a completely different article than the one being discussed at AE. When I asked him not to accuse me of such things without evidence he starts rambling about Trev and acting as if I should somehow know that one of the editors in the discussion said offensive things to some other person on some other matter. After I asked him to leave me alone and stop following me he retorts by repeating those claims, then claiming that I sought sanctions against him, when I did no such thing, and claiming I "misrepresented" his edits. After I challenged him on this claim of misrepresentation he made the bizarre accusation that I somehow was casting doubt on his health issues, when, again, I did no such thing. If you guys can honestly look over that discussion and conclude that I am provoking or harassing Mathsci, rather than the other way around, then I guess there is nothing I can do to convince any of you. He is just repeating the same attacks and claims that he made throughout the request for amendment and none of the Arbs or admins apparently saw any basis for taking action against me then, so I don't see how you can justify going after me over those same issues now.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, I am not sure what you want me to say, but I am certainly not trying to hurt you in any way. You chose to accuse me of tag-teaming and meat-puppetry while recovering from major surgery. I didn't force you to do that. All I did was ask you to leave me alone, but you aren't doing that and just forcing me to defend myself, which I don't even really like doing. Please just let this go, because it isn't doing anyone any good.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 22:23, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, you clearly know about all the notifications made by that IP, so why did you only choose to remove the comment on Cla68's page?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 14:47, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Future, this is just a typical pattern of Mathsci doing something he has every reason to believe will provoke an editor, over-reacting to the predictable response to said provocation, and then pursuing that editor until an admin decides said editor should be sanctioned. You should not continue indulging this disruptive cycle. This AE case itself is just a part of that cycle and should also not be indulged. I think giving him a very stern and clear warning about hounding would suffice in this case. Just look at the past week of article contributions from me, Mathsci, and Cla68. While Cla and myself have made numerous substantive contributions to multiple articles, Mathsci has been almost completely consumed by this effort to go after other editors. Mathsci makes valuable contributions to the project, but when he sets his mind to going after other editors those contributions essentially disappear.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:23, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Mathsci, I was asked a question and I answered it. I have not initiated any discussions about an RfC/U myself so essentially you are complaining about me having the good manners to respond when someone asks me a direct question or being open and honest about what someone else said to me in an e-mail. The truth is that I have no interest in continuing our little dispute, but you seem to want to keep this dispute going until you get whatever it is you want out of it or you are forced to stop. How about you work on some articles instead of pursuing this vendetta? I imagine that would be far less stressful and far better for you than what you are doing here. Don't want you to think I am being patronizing by saying that, but this really is just a waste of your energies.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:45, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I am not being evasive Mathsci. Any speculation as to my intent is pointless, because I have already explained it. To put it simply, I am not ruling out filing an RfC/U regarding your conduct at some point in the future due to my own concerns if I fail to see a change for the better, but I am not considering such action at this time. Such was my stated position at the request for amendment and that remains my position. You can choose to believe me a liar, but that would just be, like, your opinion, man.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:49, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Cla68

Sorry guys, I'm hatting off this whole sub-thread, including both of the repeated mutual calls for sanctions. Please just stop this now, both. I'll repeat: whether or not it's wise to do so, Mathsci has the right to remove whatever Echigo Mole edits he finds, if and when he pleases, from whatever page, period. You may think it might not be a wise thing for him to do so, but reacting to such a removal with protests and accusations and calls for sanctions against Mathsci is highly inappropriate. As such, Cla68's initial involvement in this thread is thoroughly regrettable, although I don't think it alone would be grounds for sanctions against him. But such sanctions might be called for if Cla68 keeps on harping on this theme. The problem now is that as long as M. is actively pressing for sanctions against C. because of the way C. has been talking about him, C. will continue to have a reason for defending himself and, by doing so, keep talking about M. Thus, this enforcement thread just serves to perpetuate the offensive situation, which is not good for anybody. Therefore, people, please just let it go now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate

• comment - this exchange between me and Zerosum1 may be interesting -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:09, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
• This request (unfortunately) did not address any article-related edits of YvelinesFrance (some of which are troubling, see this exchange), but I agree that an interaction ban with Mathsci is indeed for the reason given by T. Canens. Tijfo098 (talk) 05:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
• All I can say is that I was baffled by the suggestion from The Devil's Advocate that the distinction between indefinitely blocked players and banned players was important enough to wikilawyer over: "Indefinite blocks are certainly a way to implement a ban, but Trev has not been banned. The restriction also does not prohibit interactions with such editors, only restoring their edits." aprock (talk) 07:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

• Admins, I think you should examine the behavior of all the parties named in this request. Cla68 (talk) 22:37, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
• Insofar as it's relevant, I'd just like to say that for short period of time that I've participated on the R&I talk page The Devil's Advocate has provided a model of non-partisan engagement. He's perhaps the only participant whose opinion on the subject I haven't been able to transparently identify and by not foregrounding his POV he's been effective, I think, in building consensus. I've no particular opinion on this somewhat Byzantine process and the various infractions of policy that are purported to have occurred. However, the zeal with which certain matters are pursued by some editors, the discretionary powers held by this body and the potential for abuse, gives me pause about the wisdom of participating at all in the R&I and related articles. FiachraByrne (talk) 03:30, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
• Shortened version. Zeromus1's repeating the familiar spiel we've seen replayed by a half dozen proxies recruited to circumvent R/I sanctions. Echigo mole socks have yet again flocked in to exploit the situation to settle his past own scores. There was an arb resolution about a month ago that should have helped resolve -at least- the absurd and ridiculously protracted wailing and gnashing of teeth in DR when Mathsci reverted site banned user Echigo mole's sock's posts on user talk pages. And there are 3 reactions to Echigo mole's re-entry here worth noting: Zeromus1's, a new user with a "Boy Scout" style verve to volley those troll posts into doing "good deeds" and righting the "great wrongs" (supposedly) against former-to-his-registering blocked proxies-; and those of The Devil's Advocate and Cla68 who actively participated in that one month old arb enforcement inquiry wherein the issue of reverting Echigo mole's socks seemed settled, and who are now seeming to suffer amnesia or some kind of delusion the decision then didn't really apply to his socks now!

Personally - I think that The Devil's Advocate and Cla68 are (likely unwittingly, albeit cluelessly} making a bigger mess in R/I dispute resolutions because they're more fixated on Mathsci than they are they are familiar with the voices and histories of the trolls and puppets. I would ask them to disengage. His "manners" are not what's disrupting these involved articles. The disruptions R/I has been most plagued with since the decision have been off-site recruitments, banned user socking, the SPA crap. Truth is, I wish all wikipedians-and their readers-would/could tune out those spouting the obvious "nonsense noise" without any need to run to admins, arbs, etc to "silence". But the trolls (such as Echigo mole) will keep reeling in the suckers. Professor marginalia (talk) 08:11, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Zeromus1 & The Devil's Advocate

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• What I'm seeing is quite a bit of bear poking. I think an interaction ban is needed here. T. Canens (talk) 18:07, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• This is the second topic area I have seen TDC be disruptive in (first was September 11. I am leaning more towards a block for them. NW (Talk) 06:04, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

• Not really opposed to a block, but unless it's indef I'd say that we still need an interaction ban - probably one-way. T. Canens (talk) 13:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

• I'd be somewhat inclined to block TDA as well, still considering it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:39, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Wee Curry Monster

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Wee Curry Monster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Wee Curry Monster talk 13:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Restrictions on editing Gibraltar articles at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gibraltar#Sanctions

Administrator imposing the sanction

Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by Wee Curry Monster

This sanction has been in place for over a year, the RFC requested has never happened. User:Imalbornoz and User:Richard Keatinge were simply reverting edits with no real rationale. User:Imalbornoz the subject of the AE complaint has made no substantive edit on wikipedia since. The restriction is moot anyway as during the intervening period other editors have re-added material removed by User:Imalbornoz concerning signficant historical events in Gibraltar. I have a number of articles in my sandpit for over a year that I couldn't publish because of this restriction. I would like this to be lifted please.

Statement by Timotheus Canens

My tentative view is that a trial lifting is probably appropriate. With the benefit of hindsight, we probably should have simply directed the opening of an RFC. T. Canens (talk) 18:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Unarchived. T. Canens (talk) 09:23, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Wee Curry Monster

Result of the appeal by Wee Curry Monster

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Iadrian yu

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Iadrian yu

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nmate (talk) 20:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Iadrian yu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Explanation: Recently, the user lodged a request for arbitration against me in which I was accused of making personal attacks, battleground behavior, edit warring raised to a level that is amount to having an arbitration case against me, and doing OR. On 16:33, 11 October 2012, It was rejected. Admin EdJohnston said: Don't see anything here. It's hard to view this as a good-faith report.13:07, 11 October 2012

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warned on 27 August 2010 by Stifle (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Shortly after his frivilous request for arbitration against me had been rejected, Iadrian yu arrived at several articles he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before. It is clear that Iadrian yu follows my edits around and tries to provoke confrontations and edit wars.

See timeline:

• 16:33, 11 October 2012 ("Iadrian yu's request for arbitration against me was rejected")

1. 17:09, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
2. 17:11, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
3. 17:11, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
4. 17:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
5. 17:14, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
6. 17:15, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
7. 17:16, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
8. 18:12, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
9. 18:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
10. 18:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
11. 18:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
12. 18:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
13. 18:13, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
14. 18:14, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
15. 18:14, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
16. 18:14, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
17. 18:14, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
18. 18:16, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
19. 18:16, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
20. 18:16, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
21. 18:16, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
22. 18:17, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
23. 18:17, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
24. 18:18, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
25. 18:28, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
26. 18:29, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
27. 18:29, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.
28. 18:29, 11 October 2012 Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before.

After having exhibited a strong opinion on Hungarians , which is compatible with what various right wing organizations claim in Romania like Noua Dreaptă, I felt the need to report Iadrian yu to WP AE in 2010. It did not result in him being sanctioned, because it requires a preliminary notice of Digwuren upon which the sanction is based. Instead, the administrators decided to deliver him an ‎AE warning on his talk page.

Being worried about saddling himself with longer blocks, he learned from the lesson afterwards: it isn't wise to reveal his opinion on Hungarians in Misplaced Pages. However, Iadrian yu meanwhile became increasingly busy shopping for blocks against my person. The user makes friviluous reports against me using the latest edits of mine with outright false misrepresentations and the diffs simply can't support what he claims they show which indicates a general battleground attitude on his part. Shortly after his frivilous request for AE against me had been rejected, Iadrian yu again began following me to articles he had never edited before solely to revert my edits. In light of this, I do not think that it is a content dispute which is possible to resolve over talk page discussions.

I think that accusing anybody of battleground behaviour, making personal attacks and disruptive editing in a request for arbitration without any evidence really falls under WP:NPA and WP:BATTLEGROUND (See: 16:33, 11 October 2012). Shortly after his frivilous request for arbitration against me had been rejected, this user tried to provoke confrontations and edit wars by following me to 28 articles he had never edited before. I think that this pattern of behavior constitutes WP:HARASSMENT.

To Iadrian yu

it is a plain nonsense. What does it mean "Nmate resumed our dispute"? It was Iadrian yu who filled a frivilous RFA against me; most of the diffs he presented in the report did not even concern him any way. Shortly after his frivilous RFA had been closed, Iadrian yu followed me to 28 articles he had never edited before to partially revert me. It is hardly possible to take as a content dispute. In his frivilous RFA, Iadrian yu accused me of various things without any evidence that falls under WP:NPA and WP:HARASSMENT.

Then I reverted a message of Iadrian yu posted on User:Koertefa's talk page because it concerned me in a highly insulting way:
Don`t get this the wrong way but I am just curious. Did you checked the diffs I provided? And you see nothing wrong there with the behavior of this particular user? per ad hominem.

After that Iadrian yu tricked administrator The Blade of the Northern Lights into thinking that I am also worth my salt. To which The Blade of the Northern Lights answered that "He's allowed to remove messages from his own talkpage, but not other people, and I agree that edit summary wasn't helpful; I'll leave a note."
Afterwards The Blade of the Northern Lights left a note on my tlak page that "While I appreciate your frustration with Iadrian yu, stuff like this isn't going to help you much".

Well, Iadrian yu meanwhile followed me to 28 articles he had never edited before to partially revert me, and continued harassing me shortly after his frivilous request for AE against me had been rejected. It gives an interesting zest to referring to WP:LETGO.

"As per WP:LETGO I did`t edited any articles by Nmate and stand clear of any future problems". As of when? Because Iadrian yu followed me to 28 articles he had never edited before to partially revert me, shortly after his frivilous request for AE against me had been rejected.

"I hardly can imagine that Nmate's accusation for removing the words "In the 9th century, the territory of became part of the Kingdom of Hungary." was done in good faith." -this sentence is woefully ungrammatical btw- Iadrian yu followed me to 28 articles he had never edited before to partially revert me, shortly after his frivilous request for AE against me had been rejected. Now Iadrian yu is saying that it was done in good faith, and he can hardly imaginge it to be taken otherwise on my part....referring to even WP:LETGO.. seriously? How is it possible this? Does this indicate a normal way of thinking?

My "strong" opinions are represented by Nmate is introduction of the 168 as a violation. I don`t see any problem introduction historical events , but Nmate does. I admit that my edit summary was not the best.. but after all that was from 2 years ago!

It is obvious that the edit summry is objectionable here. See:

("Reverted 1 edit by Rokarudi; Unification of Transilvania with Romania is a fact not a POV. Because Hungarian ultra-nationalists claim Transilvania we can`t mention facts?")

The diff is more than 2 years old. However, it is a rather xenophobe viewpoint aimed at Hungarians; it is something that comes instincively. Iadrian yu likes editing Misplaced Pages along with Hungarian user of whose favourite subject is history while his approach to Hungarians is xenophobe. After I had reported Iadrian yu for this xenophobe edit summary, he gave up on expressing his frank opinion on Hungarians while at the same time he developed an interest for shopping for blocks for me owing to the fact that Iadrian yu is a rather vindictive user as well.

His latest attempt at shopping for a block for me happened on 16:33, 11 October 2012. Considering that Iadrian yu has a more than 2 year old history of shopping for blocks for me, invoking WP:LETGO takes some chutzpah on his part. In addition, it happened shortly after his latest frivilous RFA against me had been closed ,and then followed me to 28 articles he had never edited before to partially revert me. And he thinks that it was a good faith act on his part. Huh? How is it possible this?

To Iadrian yu and Omen1229

There is no point in continuing this discussion because ,as usual, Iadrian yu fiddles with the diffs in a deceptive way; no resason to respond to his further diffs because the discussion could become mazy that is difficult to look over.

I would advise Omen1229 to learn some more English, because his sentences are borderline unreadable. As for "when the Kingdom of Hungary was established", there was a short intermittent period; in fact, it belonged to Hungary at that time, which is true. Interesting enough that Omen1229 can't write in correct English grammar, yet he keeps accusing all the Hungarian users of battleground behaviour. Because I am not the only person who is accused of battleground behaviour by Omen1229. He appears to think that this type of tactic may pay off.

In conclude

I feel it may be a time that a restriction from following me around on Misplaced Pages be imposed upon Iadrian yu. Because saying that he acts toward me in good faith is not credible i.e. making corrections regarding my edits shortly after his RFA against me was rejected. And even on the same day, Iadrian yu came to the decision to stay away from me to obviate the possibility of the occurance of any problems in the future after following me to yet another 28 articles he had never edited before.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Iadrian yu

Statement by Iadrian yu

I believe this report is regarding with my previous, but anyway...

After this , and this I have considered this finished. Unfortunately, Nmate resumed our dispute (first he illegally deleted a comment of mine, being immediately informed for this by an admin) and then filed this report.

As per WP:LETGO I did`t edited any articles by Nmate and stand clear of any future problems (as per my recent contributions) but Nmate has written this comment ] considering me as an "anti-Hungarian" editor and more, while I don`t any problems with other Hungarian editors (I have a good cooperation with several Hungarian editors actually) - while he accuses me of belonging to the some organization "Noua Dreaptă"?? By his reasoning does he(Nmate) belongs to the Sixty-Four Counties Youth Movement? Even after this, I did`t engaged in any contact with Nmate. Now this report based on his introduction of original research (Kingdom of Hungary, 9th century, but it existed only after 1000 year) by him and my edits reverting that data. Also reverting one edit is hardly an edit war or anything similar. Other editors expressed their opinion too that this is OR (, , ,) and in my previous report where I was warned for misusing this board .

My "strong" opinions are represented by Nmate is introduction of the ] as a violation. I don`t see any problem introduction historical events , but Nmate does. I admit that my edit summary was not the best.. but after all that was from 2 years ago! Reverting original research I don`t see as harassment, and he yet reintroduced a bunch of original research introduced by him??? Based on what ? Reading the main and only accusation Iadrian yu reverted me to an article he had never edited or had expressed an interest in before. - does this mean that I am not allowed to edit articles I never did before? I hardly can imagine that Nmate's accusation for removing the words "In the 9th century, the territory of became part of the Kingdom of Hungary." was done in good faith. Nmate is a Hungarian editor whose preoccupation is the history of his country and I don't think he is not aware of the fact that the Kingdom of Hungary was founded in year 1000 (sources: }).

After all this I just want to WP:LETGO and continue with my work on wikipedia. I believe my contributions prove that. If there is original research I would remove it, and there is no need to write a report for that. Adrian (talk) 01:05, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

1. Yes, you continued our dispute, and there are diffs to prove it in my starting comment. I filled a report against you, and there is no secret about that. I was warned for misusing this board. After this I stayed away from you. If you are answering my statement, please read it carefully.
2. I did`t "followed" you, I have noticed a couple of weeks ago the problem of your original research but I have left to see if you would correct it, because you are familiar with the fact that your data is incorrect. Also I can notice that you reverted many of then for no apparent reason? May I know why? Since your edit summary is empty... Even in my report you did`t missed the change the accuse me of some things and now based on some reverts you are saying I harass you...I believe that is plain nonsense.
3. You reverted my message because it was insulting? This was insulting? I am sorry but this is in no way Ad hominem, and if you consider it was you have a board for personal attacks, not as a result writing an edit summary that is truly Ad hominem (Undid revision 517167974 by Iadrian yu (talk) trolling by a highly disruptive user). I guess this comments introduced by you are not insulting (1, 2, 3, Hello you smartass or rather doofus/dummy 4, 5, 6) ? Or this comment where you called me a lot of things based on absolutely nothing where his contributions almost always appear to be aimed at removing Hungarian-related content, or modifying content to be more anti-Hungarian. , The reason why Iadrian yu requested for arbitration against me was that Iadrian yu thinks that the anti-Hungarian side may loose of their turf after Samofi's talk page access was revoked - ??? anti-Hungarian side? lose turf? I was not aware that this was a war.... But all this was not Ad hominem and my comment here was???
4. I tricked an admin? By asking what I did wrong in my report? By informing of your edit summary and that you deleted my comment on other users page? No comment on this because the words speak for themselves, how are you interpreting them is against their meaning.
5. As I said before, removing original research is not harassment. Also an uninvolved editor expressed his opinion on this and he did`t saw anything wrong.
6. I will repeat, I hardly can imagine that Nmate's accusation for removing the words "In the 9th century, the territory of became part of the Kingdom of Hungary." was done in good faith. Nmate is a Hungarian editor whose preoccupation is the history of his country and I don't think he is not aware of the fact that the Kingdom of Hungary was founded in year 1000 (sources: }). And yet you reverted some of this edits and filed a report here based on them...Adrian (talk) 09:28, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

NPA

My edit summary was from 2 years ago, and as such I don`t see it relevance to present-day discussions. Introducing a 2 year ago diff is not block-shopping? Talking about old diffs, I don`t want to "dig", but you had a lot of problematic statements (ex:, , ) - looks like you accuse every user of wikistalking? Just because some editor did`t edited that article before?. Saying what I said then is wrong but surely not xenophobic. And that statement was not introduced against a specific user, from my comment it is clear I refer to one specific group (Hungarian ultra-nationalists) and not personally you, or this user. Again I know now that this kind of comments are disruptive and as you noticed also, I did`t used that kind of tone with anyone in recent time(1 year+). I see that after calling me an anti-Hungarian editor you went a step further and labeled me as a xenophobic user. At this point, you talking about block-shopping is really strange. I don`t wish to comment further on this kind of WP:NPA on me. If you wish to talk about the problem you represented on this report, I will respond on that only. Adrian (talk) 10:21, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I expected a response to my previous answer, number 3 actually and number 6? Adrian (talk) 10:34, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Response to "To Iadrian yu and Omen1229" and "In conclude"

1. As I said before,After this I stayed away from you. If you are answering my statement, please read it carefully. If you check the time stamps you can notice.
2. It is clear that you are continuing with your introduction of WP:OR and yet you did`t said the reason of your reverts?
3. Again, as I said before, removing original research is not harassment. An uninvolved editor expressed his opinion on this and he did`t saw anything wrong.
4. As for the accusation that I am flowing you, per WP:HOUND - Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. - I have corrected your introduction of invalid data(OR). About your claims of harassment Threatening another person is considered harassment. This includes threats to harm another person, to disrupt their work on Misplaced Pages, or to otherwise harm them. Statements of intent to properly use normal Misplaced Pages processes, such as dispute resolution, are not threats. - I did`t threat you in any way with my comments or contributions.
5. After all this I just want to WP:LETGO and continue with my work on wikipedia. I believe my contributions prove that. If there is original research I would remove it, and there is no need to write a report for that.
6. I am confused, just because I (or anybody else) did`t edited that article before that means I am not able to do so in the future? Do you WP:OWN this articles? So nobody new is allowed to edit them?

Adrian (talk) 11:38, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Conclusion

I am really interested why User:Nmate avoids to give an answer why is he continuing with the introduction of WP:OR and yet did`t said the reason of his reverts? This is the base for this report after all. As he said, 28 of them.

• If I or anybody else correct this data again, does this mean there will be a new report as some sort of "harassment" against this user?
• Or another accusation of wikistalking ?
• Or engage in an edit war?
• Or a label to whomever disagree`s with his as an "anti-Hungarian" editor who fight for "terf" and is xenophobe  ? Adrian (talk) 14:51, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Response to User:Tijfo098

I actually try to stay away from this user because of his attitude, he actually labeled me. When I stumbled on 3 articles with the same problematic data introduced by Nmate, after a couple of minutes I noticed that this is introduced on a lot more articles. I don`t believe this is wikihounding since I did`t interfere to create problems nor to disrupt this user in any way. Per WP:HOUND - Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. - I did exactly this. As far as I can see, everybody agrees that data "In the 9th century, the territory of became part of the Kingdom of Hungary." is false (OR). Adrian (talk) 10:36, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Response to User:Fakirbakir

I agree. Nmate inserted Kingdom of Hungary. As such you can see why I see this statement problematic. Even the Principality of Hungary was not active in the 9th century. If the data were valid, with sources, I have nothing against the inclusion of it. Since the earliest data about the Principality of Hungary is circa year 900, I have nothing against of adding something like "Around the year 900 (since it is circa, we can`t know for sure if it is 9 or 10 century) the territory of became part of the Principality of Hungary. - sounds more realistic, but is still requires a source per wiki policies. Because at least we have some indications that this is very possible. I discussed this also with another editor and it seems this would be fine by him too. What Nmate did is clearly WP:OR. Adrian (talk) 10:51, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Response to the proposed sanction

I think this would be a bad idea, for both of us.

The warning I received in 2010 for AE is not a usual one I misbehaved but I at least I had valid reasons . The admin could`t retract the warning but had more understanding after seeing this diffs.

After all, this is what User:Nmate wanted from the start of all this . All editors who expressed their opinion here agreed that I was right in removing the statement about Hungary in 9th century, so I don't understand why I am blamed for it with an indefinite ban for some topics. I don`t see why I have to have any restriction because of the unconventional behavior of this user? All this could be avoided if he would just talk and not used blind reverts.

• (My proposal) -I did`t wrote a any kind of report in a while, while I can`t say this for Nmate. Maybe we(both users) could be restricted for filing reports against each-other and if a serious problem arises in the future to be solved with contacting an admin on the talk page.

I don`t have any problems with any other user(in particular with Hungarian users on Hungary-related articles). He have written this report based on content dispute, not me, as such I don`t see fair for introducing any restriction to me. I was warned for misusing this board a couple of days ago, but after comments he used, and the type of language he showed here, I thought that was unacceptable. As I stayed away from Nmate all this time, I will in the future too, but when I see a clear violation like it is presented in this case I would correct it.Adrian (talk) 07:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

User:Future Perfect at Sunrise - I don`t understand how my behavior is more tendentious. Please check this: and . Adrian (talk) 08:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Response to User:CoolKoon

I can understand your logic but I don`t agree with it. Just because I did`t edited an article before that doesn`t mean I am not allowed to do that in the future. Your examples have sense if you wish to show me like I am following Nmate, but how about this articles : , , , , , (just a few examples) did Nmate edited them too? You make it look like I edit some articles just because Nmate does(what about the 90% of my contributions that have no contact with Nmate?) but I haven`t had any contact with this user for a while until now. I fail to see why do you think I deserve any kind of sanction? You presented a case like a problem for excluding info,... I am deleting unreferenced info while Nmate is "constructive" introducing unreferenced info and entering in conflicts while he insist it`s inclusion? Because I removed OR introduced by Nmate? Since my last report "boomerang" against me, by the same conditions, I except something similar to happen here without any block on either side since this is a content dispute. I notice that some of the worst comments on wiki by Nmate are ignored( and - while for much less I got warned in 2010) but on my account removing a OR is a problem. Adrian (talk) 11:35, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Iadrian yu

I can confirm that Adrian is right in removing the sentence about "Kingdom of Hungary in 9th century". Instead of edit warring and reinserting unsourced stataments, he could have done a little research and learn that the Kingdom of Hungary was established by Stephen I in 1000 AD. He could simply have read the infobox of Kingdom of Hungary article, but he preferred to revert Adrian, what looks like battleground mentality for me. In the future, Nmate please use reliable source for exact , because the form of government was at times changed or ambiguous, causing interruptions, for example . --Omen1229 (talk) 09:01, 18 October 2012 (UTC) --Omen1229 (talk) 09:01, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

This is a simple content dispute. I agree those settlements did not become parts of the Kingdom of Hungary in the 9th century but all of them became integral parts of the rising Principality of Hungary at the beginning of the 10th century. The Hungarian conquest was done by 902 according to the researchers. Moreover, the territories controlled by the Hungarian Grand Princes were much bigger than the latter territory of Kingdom of Hungary. For instance, the western borders of the principality reached to River Enns (today the border region between Upper and Lower Austria) until 955 because of the typical nomadic march (frontier, Gyepüelve in Hungarian) borderlands. Another thing, the map demonstrated by Omen1229 is highly dubious and misleading because the northern parts of Kingdom of Hungary or according to the map the "Slovak lands" (this expression is also dubious in the 11th century in connection with Kingdom of Hungary) were parts of Poland only from 1003 to 1015 or from 1015 to 1018 (according to the sources, see History of Slovakia). Fakirbakir (talk) 09:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• Iadrian yu indeed took interest in Nmate's editing. The issue here is that the content added by Nmate is unreferenced and it consists of pretty obscure historical facts/claims that were added in cookie-cutter fashion to many articles. So I don't know if removing that is sanctionable, other than for both sides edit warring over it. Furthermore there are WP:SYNT concerns with adding info about who the territory belonged to three centuries before this or that village was ever mentioned in the historical record. (The list of former claimants/occupiers/migrators through that land can be pretty long.) Tijfo098 (talk) 10:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I feel like I have to comment on this, especially since I thought that the issue would go away after Adrian's failed attempt at having ArbCom impose a topic ban on Nmate as per the DIGWUREN case, but obviously it didn't. Don't get me wrong, Nmate can become really agitated at times (e.g. removing content from another user's talk page is a no-no) and needs to polish his English skills as well (an "issue" which has earned him a sanction when he called another editor a "pest" simply because he probably wasn't aware of the fact that the term sounds much harsher than he meant it to be), but I still have to say that he's a "constructive" editor because he's usually adding contents. This is in contrary to editors who oppose him (Adrian and Omen1229 being among them) and who are much keener on removing content instead of adding it (e.g. removal of Hungarian place names from articles being the most notorious example). I'd say that this alone's proof of the fact that this is much more than a simple "content dispute" (it's more of a "generalized" content dispute). And to make it worse while Nmate definitely shows a slight pro-Hungarian bias in his edits (basically he only edits articles which have any kind of connection to Hungary's present or past), his opposition is showing not only the exact opposite (i.e. an almost obsessive desire to remove Hungarian-related content from ANY article, even one that's as innocuous-looking as the one about Franz Liszt) but also a tendency to follow Nmate around (e.g. why'd Adrian go about editing articles about Hungarian villages of Slovakia if it's obvious that he's either a Serbian editor living in Romania or a Romanian editor living in Serbia -most probably Vojvodina-? Or Omen1229: why'd he post a notice on the Cluj-Napoca article's talk page if he's never edited Romanian-related articles before? Or why'd he suddenly edit articles about some small Transcarpathian villages that lie near the border if he has never engaged in such topics before? Isn't the only connection between those edits the fact that Nmate has edited them?) and express opinions about Hungarians in general that border paranoia (e.g. Adrian's edit summary from 2 years ago quoted above or this "friendly" ANI report by Omen1229 after I noted on his talk page that he might want to make the tone of his edits more neutral to avoid accusations of bias and one-sided POV). Therefore I think that imposing the very same restrictions for both Nmate and Adrian would create an impression that anti-Hungarian editors can do much more disruption than the people who are trying to stop them before they get any sanctions.

As for the admins' comments I have to side with Fut. Perf I'm afraid as per my reasons above. He was also right in pointing out the problem with imposing country-wise restrictions. Basically Slovakia (i.e. a state or a de facto recognized region of the land where the Slovaks live) did not exist before 1918 at all, so a topic ban of Slovakia would be pretty pointless for Nmate (who rarely seems to edit articles that concern present-day Slovakia and Slovak historical figures anyway), and in historical context he'd just say that he's dealing with content that deals with Hungarian history (and would be absolutely right even if the article's about villages lying in Slovakia; the same applies to Transylvania, Vojvodina and Transcarpathia all of which lie outside of Hungary's border but were part of Hungary prior to 1918). Also to turn this around a Hungarians-related ban for Adrian would also mean that he'd be banned from editing articles pertaining the Hungarian history as well (at least that's how it'd be interpreted by Hungarian editors I think). Therefore maybe a combination of interaction ban and an ethnic topics related ban would be a tad bit more effective. -- CoolKoon (talk) 10:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

why'd he post a notice on the Cluj-Napoca article's talk page if he's never edited Romanian-related articles before? > it's a problem for you? 1. Romanian-related article are not prohibited for users who them never edited before and 2. the reason is simple - it is similar issue as Bratislava article - WP recommendations are not accepted - Alternative names in begin section --Omen1229 (talk) 11:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

No, the fact that you've started editing a brand new article isn't problematic on its own. However the article in question deals with a city that you obviously never heard of, don't know anything about and never been at in the first place. Thus there's a high probability of you stumbling upon it either by stalking around Nmate or another Hungarian editor or hearing about it from a banned+blocked Romanian editor who shall not be named. And frankly speaking I don't know which one's worse. Besides I won't cite WP recommendations if I were you because it was a Serbian editor with a strong anti-Hungarian bias (who shall not be named either) that insisted on the elimination of the minority names and misinterpreted/twisted all the WP rules and recommendations on the matter to make them "sound" in his favor. -- CoolKoon (talk) 15:59, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Your strange synthesis are more and more boring. Please stop with personal attacks or do you have some evidence that I never heard about Kluž? Thus there's a high probability of you stumbling upon it either by stalking around Nmate or another Hungarian editor > Completely outside, stalking around Nmate or another editors is totally unacceptable for me. "high probability" - what it means? Are you accusing me without evidence or what? So again - the reason is simple - it is similar issue as Bratislava article - WP recommendations are not accepted. And what do you think about these edits ?--Omen1229 (talk) 17:01, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Strange synthesis? Do you REALLY think that anybody would believe the fact that you've ended up there "by chance" or "by a mistake" that had nothing to do with either the Hungarian editors or the Romanian puppet master? I mean anybody who checks your edit log will see that never before have you edited ANY of the articles that deal with Romania (or Transcarpathia for that matter), yet all of a sudden you had this "sudden urge" to "export" the completely unconstructive discussion from the Bratislava article's talk page to that of Cluj? And then you "spontaneously" appeared on articles that deal with some Transcarpathian villages only to remove edits of Nmate by chance alone? I certainly hope that no people in their right mind would buy that.

What about the edits on the Elie Wiesel article? It's ok to show interest in Hungarian politics in general, but copying extracts from published articles word by word constitutes a copyright violation which's supposed to be reverted on sight (even the Hungarian president had to resign for similar reasons and besides, the newspaper agency could then sue Misplaced Pages's pants off for this). Thus Nmate has removed it. In fact I would've removed it too. It really isn't Nmate's fault that your English needs considerable improvement (to be able to slightly reword/summarize content extracted from news portals). -- CoolKoon (talk) 18:03, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

And then you "spontaneously" appeared on articles that deal with some Transcarpathian villages only to remove edits of Nmate by chance alone? I certainly hope that no people in their right mind would buy that. > Do you think articles where Nmate deleted my contribs without reason? I do not know what is your intention and your essays + synthesis without evidence are boring and confusing for me.

What about the edits on the Elie Wiesel article?... Thus Nmate has removed it. > I use your sentences: Do you REALLY think that anybody would believe the fact that Nmate has ended up there (for example here: 1 2) "by chance" or "by a mistake" that had nothing to do with either the Slovak/Romanian/Serbs editors or the Hungarian puppet master? And my Transylvanian puppet master is Count Dracula for your info. --Omen1229 (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Future Perfect at Sunrise wrote "I'm not sure I see the situation as quite so symmetrical. I'm open to convinced otherwise , but where I've looked, it has usually seemed to me that Nmate came across as consistently more rational, more articulate and less tendentious than Iadrian yu." > How can Nmate be more rational than Adrian? Adrian never referred to Nmate's I.Q. like Nmate did about Adrian's Iadrian yu is not an I.Q. champion. Adrian never ilegally deleted others' commments like Nmate did . Adrian never recently used this kind of edit summaries (ask a Hungarian for the translation) Adrian never removed correct templates, like "unreferenced" for an unreferenced article .Future Perfect at Sunrise had no problem give me topic-ban from all edits relating to Slovak-Historian history for a period of six months , he promised that he will look on my "oponnents", but nothing happened. On the other hand after canvass of Nmate he had time to block Samofi . This was reason for him for topic ban: and this for a block: But for example this statement (The modern Slovakia is a neo-fascist state where the hungarian minority is just a thing what they have to assimilate into the slovak society. ) was unnoticed. Now "he thinks – refused to take action against Nmate" and he has also "a practical issue about overlap in the scope of the topic bans".--Omen1229 (talk) 10:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by CoolKoon moved here from below. @EdJohnston: The problem with such thinking is that many of Hungary's historical (or even some living) figures were born in places that don't belong to Hungary anymore yet they spent most of their life either in places that still belong to Hungary or went abroad (e.g. Endre Ady,Béla Bartók, Ányos Jedlik, Péter Pázmány etc. the list goes on and on), so interpreting today's borders in historical context (especially Hungarian historical context) is really asking for trouble (especially so since all the admins including you could be bugged with exceptions on a case-by-case basis almost every day considering the amount of such "controversial" historical figures). I still think that an interaction ban would be a better idea. (on a semi-related note I think I've read on WikiTravel that tourists traveling to Hungary should avoid bringing up the issue of Trianon unless they're good friends with the people they're visiting and/or are really knowledgeable about the topic which is a really good advice I'd say). -- CoolKoon (talk) 16:17, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• I think that both editors (Iadrian yu and Nmate) are reasonable and made several beneficial contributions to Misplaced Pages over the years, they just cannot get along with each other. I see the logic behind EdJohnston's suggestion, but I think that it would be a bit unfair in its original form, since it would affect Nmate much more. The "problematic" articles around which conflicts usually arise are exactly the ones which are somehow connected to the regions which were parts of the Kingdom of Hungary (KoH) before WWI, but became parts of other countries with the Treaty of Trianon. Therefore, restricting the edits to the modern boundaries would almost exclusively effect only Nmate. I agree with CoolKoon and also think that an interaction ban would be the best solution for the problem. Best wishes, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 09:31, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

PS: A quick note about the foundation of KoH: it was indeed founded in 1000 (or alternatively in 1001), thus it did not exist in the 9th, however, KoH had emerged from the Principality of Hungary which was founded after the arrival of the Hungarian tribes, traditionally dated to 895 (9th century). So while Nmate's statement is indeed imprescience, it is not as incorrect as it looks, since the principality existed from the 9th century. On the other hand, I agree that it does not make to much sense providing this info if the town/village did not exist in the 9th century (or it is not proven that it did exist, since the first historical record is from a later century). KœrteFa {ταλκ} 09:31, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Iadrian yu

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Link to or quote the exact remedy you wish us to enforce. Please word your request so that someone with no background will be able to understand your request.--Tznkai (talk) 20:25, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• It is easy to see that Nmate and Iadrian yu have repeatedly clashed on Eastern European topics over the last couple of years. Admins should consider doing something. If we still believed in interaction bans, I would propose that. Instead, I suggest that the domain of Eastern Europe be divided up to reduce the interaction between these editors. Nmate has received a logged notice under WP:ARBEE and Iadrian yu was effectively notified of ARBEE due to the filing of a complaint against him at AE in August, 2010.

To reduce the interaction between these editors I propose an indefinite ban of each editor from certain countries:

• Nmate to be banned from Romania, Serbia and Slovakia
• Iadrian yu to be banned from Hungary and the Czech Republic.

This division would still allow each editor to contribute in the areas they appear to know best. Iadrian yu identifies himself as a native speaker of Romanian and a level-5 speaker of Serbian. Nmate doesn't made his language abilities known on his user page but the 16 articles he has created are mainly about towns populated by Hungarians.

• Each of the two users has made past edits which suggest to me they have problems with neutrality when writing about topics that concern particular ethnicities. My proposal doesn't solve that problem, since Nmate will be able to write unchecked by Iadrian yu in articles in his own domain, and vice versa. This proposal mainly conserves admin bandwidth and space at the noticeboards. If any further problems arise with these editors on Eastern European topics, other parties can report them. EdJohnston (talk) 04:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see the situation as quite so symmetrical. I'm open to convinced otherwise , but where I've looked, it has usually seemed to me that Nmate came across as consistently more rational, more articulate and less tendentious than Iadrian yu. For that reason, and also because we just – rightly, I think – refused to take action against Nmate in pretty much the same matters, I don't think handing out equal sanctions against each at this point would be quite fair.

There's also a practical issue about overlap in the scope of the topic bans. How are they going to be delimited, by modern state boundaries? Keep in mind that, for instance, Slovakia was part of Hungary for a large part of its history. So, if editor A is banned from Slovakia and B from Hungary, which of the two is still allowed to edit about shared history? If A writes an article about a Hungarian king, will he be blocked if the article mentions that he conquered a city that is now in Slovakia? If B writes an article about a Slovak town, will he be blocked if the article mentions what administrative unit the town was part of in the 19th century? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• For problems with Nmate's editing, see the list of reverts submitted with this report. Nmate was adding to 28 different articles that the territory in which they were located became part of the Kingdom of Hungary in the 9th century, while our own article on Kingdom of Hungary in the Middle Ages says that the kingdom began in the year 1000. Nmate is assigning these towns to the kingdom (a) before sources say that the kingdom existed, (b) before there is any historical record of the existence of the towns themselves. This looks to be pro-Hungary glorification. See also the Executive Court of Prešov, an article created by Nmate which retains most of the non-neutral text (and lack of sources) with which he created it in 2008.
• For problems with overlap of nationalities in EE, I suggest that each party could work on anything that is located within the modern boundaries of their permitted countries, even if the town (or person) was connected with a different nationality in the period being written about. Each party could consult the banning administrator for exemption in particular cases. EdJohnston (talk) 13:54, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Return of Antidiskriminator report from Archives (admin attention please)

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Antidiskriminator

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Peacemaker67 (talk) 02:40, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Antidiskriminator (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

ARBMAC

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Talk:Pavle Đurišić/Archive 2 and Talk:Pavle Đurišić from 9/08/12 onwards, User:Antidiskriminator has created nearly two dozen separate sections on Talk:Pavle Đurišić about supposed deficiencies in Pavle Đurišić causing a great deal of disruption with only minor improvement to the article but until 03/10/12 refused to substantively edit in article space to address the supposed deficiencies, instead expecting the editors that had helped promote the article to MILHIST A-Class and FA to do so apparently in order to gather evidence that those editors are not abiding by WP:NPOV in relation to the general topic of Chetniks - Pavle Đurišić was a Chetnik. See also .
2. move to German-occupied Serbia 12/09/12 Started a second RM immediately after an RM was closed Not Moved. This RM was also closed (on 21 August 2012) with the result Not Moved. Disruption and failure to accept a lack of consensus for a title change.
3. 29/09/12 Dominated this thread making observations about the alleged behaviour of editors opposing a title change. Disruption and failure to accept a lack of consensus for a title change.
4. 10/09/12 Started another thread about the title, again making observations about the alleged behaviour of editors opposing a title change. Continued disruption and failure to accept a lack of consensus for a title change.
5. 14/09/12 Started another thread about the title, again making observations about the alleged behaviour of editors opposing a title change. Same again.
6. 18/09/12 Started another thread about the title, again making observations about the alleged behaviour of editors opposing a title change. Same again.
7. 29/09/12 WP:WIKIHOUNDING but request here to stop has been ignored and the behaviour has continued, and escalated, with specific references being made to the lack of consensus for the RMs at Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warned on 19/10/10 by Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk · contribs) in relation to not accepting consensus at Skanderbeg - I know this is old, but I included it just to show that User:Antidiskriminator has been well aware of the ARBMAC sanctions for a long time and has prior form for not accepting consensus.
2. Warned on 17/08/12 by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs) in relation to 3RR/edit-warring on Religion in Albania
3. Warned on 02/09/12 by PRODUCER (talk · contribs) in relation to edit-warring on Pavle Djurisic
4. Warned on 06/09/12 by ZjarriRrethues (talk · contribs) in relation to edit-warring on Siege of Shkodra
5. Warned on 23/09/12 by DIREKTOR (talk · contribs) in relation to disruption (ARBMAC)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I consider User:Antidiskriminator has been highly disruptive across several articles which fall under the ARBMAC sanctions for a period of six weeks or more, including a complete failure to accept that there has been a lack of consensus for a title change. I should probably have reported their behaviour before this, but am a relatively new user and have not had much experience with filing reports, especially not at this level. I want to say up-front that I have found User:Antidiskriminator's behaviour very frustrating, and I may have strayed off the civility path on a couple of occasions due to that frustration and numerous provocations. I am aware that is no excuse and accept that I may be sanctioned myself for that, and will take any such sanction with good grace. However, I feel that since DIREKTOR's warning, the WP:WIKIHOUNDING has taken this beyond the bounds of what could possibly be acceptable and that, combined with User:Antidiskriminator's behaviour on a number of ARBMAC articles, makes it appropriate to file this report now. I just want User:Antidiskriminator to accept when there is no consensus for a move (or edit), stop disrupting articles with long lists of demands on the talkpage and expecting other editors to comply with their demands, and stop WP:WIKIHOUNDING me (which is in my view directly related to the failure to accept lack of consensus and continued disruption). I believe some form of coercion is necessary to get them to stop their disruption and related behaviour.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning User:Antidiskriminator

Statement by User:Antidiskriminator

• After Peacemaker67 requested A-class review of Pavle Đurišić at WikiProject Serbia (diff) (where I am one of the most active members), I responded to his request and started being involved with this article (and many other articles about WWII in Yugoslavia, including major battles and offensives). Here is a list of my contributions to Pavle Đurišić article. I don't think my edits (of this or any other article) were "an endless succcession of tedious, unproductive squabbling" because they pointed out valid flaws and were used as a tool to improve the quality of the article. If I am wrong, I sincerely apologize.
• My first edit of the Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia was nine months before ‎Peacemaker67 started editing wikipedia. I tried to help resolving the name issue of this article and decided to give up on 25 September although I believe my efforts were constructive and supported by the majority of editors.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:07, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
  • @EdJohnston: I started one move request at Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia (link). I believe I provided appropriate rationale which was based on wikipedia policies and guidelines (WP:CRITERIA and WP:COMMONNAME). My proposal was supported by majority of editors (6:5 during RM discussion if I am not wrong) with several editors who joined later discussions after RM was over and who also supported the name I proposed.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:16, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning User:Antidiskriminator

Comment by Athenean

I don't see anything remotely actionable in the limited evidence provided by Peacemaker, especially with respect to WP:HOUND. I think part of the problem is that Peacemaker is misunderstanding WP:HOUND. Extended talkpage discussions are not Wikihounding, if someone tires of a discussion the simplest and best thing to do is to leave. Providing links to talkpage threads is completely unhelpful and meaningless. I have interacted with Antidiskriminator in the past and have always found him to be model of civility and courteous behavior, even when he is the victim of incivil behavior, as is often the case. He has a clean block log and is always careful to provide sources for his edits. He is also highly skilled at finding sources difficult to access, and as such is a valuable contributor to this topic area. Athenean (talk) 07:42, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

The only wikihounding I see here is by Gaius Claudius Nero (bringing up year-old diffs, now that's wikihounding), not to mention accusations of bad faith and conspiracy theories. Athenean (talk) 16:14, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by WhiteWriter

I also dont find anything sanctionable here. Based on my previous experiences with User:Antidiskriminator, he may be regarded as great, highly relevant and good faithed editor, with great knowledge of wiki guidelines and usage of sources and references. Also, i never saw that he lost his temper, even for a bit, which is priceless. Diffs presented are unrelated to the WPHOUND. I also highly doubt that user is capable to do any guidelines breach, as it was presented. In the end, editor for example. Also, as i already stated on ANI, this AE is nothing more then try to eliminate opposing side in a dispute, in a previously successful traveling circus attack way, usually unrelated to the problem. Antid's numerous constructive propositions to solve the obvious problem with page Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia are obviously problematic for some. Therefore, i can expect several editors included in this problem to recall any problematic situation from the past and present, in order to fulfill this request. This is a example where content dispute can end, in a traveling circus caravan. --WhiteWriter 13:55, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by PRODUCER

I found Anti's behavior at the Pavle Đurišić article to constitute tendentious editing and to be belligerent. After the article had been promoted to FA status for some time (28 August), Anti took his first personal A-class review and then he cut up his points into sections on the article's talk page where he tried whatever tactic he could to remove information he personally disliked and push in information he does like, in essence throwing whatever can stick. After that he rehashed them twice and posted them as reasons as to why the article should not be A class article! Reaching whatever reason he can no matter how baseless, unfounded, the long length discussion, or the numerous sections in which they were discussed:

• Communist subordination:
  • On 26 August, he brought it up in his initial review
  • On 24 August, since that failed, he brought it up again at the article talkpage
  • On 3 September, since that failed, he brought it up in his rehashed review

• Family/parents:
  • On 15 August, he brought it up in his initial review
  • On 24 August, since that failed, he brought it up again at the article talkpage
  • On 3 September, since that failed, he brought it up in his rehashed review
• Iron Cross:
  • On 22 August he claimed that there is a controversy
  • On 25 August, since that failed, he claimed that there was undue weight ,
  • On 31 August, since that failed, he attacked the source that supports the award.
  • On 3 September, since that failed, he stated all at once that it is disputed, that there's undue weight, and that the source used is unreliable in his rehashed review
• A song:
  • On 26 August, he brought it up in his initial review
  • On 2 September, since that failed, he brought it up again at the article talkpage
• Berane:
  • On 26 August, he brought it up in his initial review
  • On 2 September, since that failed, he brought it up again at the article talkpage
  • On 18 September, since that failed, again brought it up

These are by no means the only diffs available, in many cases Anti takes one topic and interjects it while discussing another. To further his control of the talk page (in what I can only interpret as an attempt to WP:OWN it) he makes use of a "unresolved" template for every discussion in which he does not have a favorable outcome (no matter how long the matter was discussed or how weak his arguments) and reverts anyone who dares modify them. To Anti users on the talk page are a blockade of sorts and continues to refuse to get the point and simply reiterates the same views and points he held previously through duplicate sections and discussions. The same editorial behavior can be found on the Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia article where with WhiteWriter he has attempted to push their POV (including that of PANONIAN who was banned on AE for his disruptive behavior ) continuously and over many redundant sections. His support of him is no surprise. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 14:50, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Another Greek editor aware of this discussion and vouching for Anti? Hmmm... --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 15:22, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I note that Antidiskriminator was blocked indefinitely on his Serbian account early this year for his disruptive behavior and "systematic trolling". He was blocked by four different admins for the same behavioral problem on numerous occasions in the past. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 12:47, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by ZjarriRrethues

• The report summarizes Antidiskriminator's decorum breaches and editing very concisely. The major issue regarding Antidiskriminator is his denial to accept consensus which is followed by semi-"retaliatory" acts i.e. wikihounding among others. On Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia he kept starting new discussions on the same topics using different arguments every time as he couldn't gain approval. As that was becoming an ad infinitum situation he followed Peacemaker67 and disputed him on articles he had never shown any interest in(Pavle Durisic etc.). There's a long history of that particular kind of editing as evidenced by the ARBMAC warnings (first in 2010 for restarting the same debates against consensus; latest in 2012 for the same reasons) and edit-warring warnings.--— ZjarriRrethues —  15:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• What does Antidiskriminator mean by the second part of his statement? The result of his RM was no consensus. Where does he base his belief that his proposal regarding the title issue was supported by the majority of editors?
• That being said, source and especially RS abuse has been a major issue as Antidiskriminator uses them selectively and always insists that his sources are RS regardless of their extreme nature. For example, on Vulnetari (Albanian semi-collaborationist unit of WWII) he was using Smilja Avramov, a councillor of Milosevic and flagrant anti-semite who among others has written that Olaf Palme, JF Kennedy and Aldo Moro were all killed by the Trilateral Commission because they broke the vow of secrecy ...the destruction of Yugoslavia was a joint endeavour of the Vatican and the US establishment. Four (Peacemaker67, Aigest, PRODUCER, I) users who pointed out the nature of his sources got WP:IDHT responses about the arguments being unrelated to RS and that RSN was needed (Talk:Vulnetari#General comment). The wikilawyering was followed by an article he wrote on Smilja Avramov that essentially constitutes whitewashing as he labeled her a law expert and omitted everything controversial including her beliefs on the Protocols of Zion, her involvement in the Yugoslav Wars and most recently her decision to act as a defendant witness in the cases of Karadzic/Mladic. In fact, he chose to only use one source, which, in fact, doesn't mention her at all (given url).

• An update in regard to recent edits by Antidiskriminator:
• 14:00, 1 September 2012: Antidiskriminator in a section on Pavle Durisic regarding his Iron Cross: You did not give me any time to present sources before you labeled my comment as original research. That was not polite nor constructive. Here are some sources which support information that there are claims that he actually did not receive Iron Cross ... General Milan Nedić, Том 2, Stanislav Krakov Antidiskriminator presents a work by Stanislav Krakov as a source.
• 09:46, 14 October 2012: Antidiskriminator in the same section on Pavle Durisic regarding his Iron Cross: Krakov was not historian and I did not propose to use him as source nor I dispute anything you wrote about Stanislav Krakov

--— ZjarriRrethues —  16:04, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• Indeed, Antidiskriminator's indef ban on sr.wikipedia is quite instructive. PRODUCER, could you explain the conditions, which lead to the indef ban, for those of us that don't speak Serbo-Croatian?--— ZjarriRrethues —  13:32, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Gaius Claudius Nero

I have been Wikihounded by Antidiskriminator for more than a year (I considered retiring because of it) and never brought myself to reporting the constant offenses he had made against me. Below are some of what I perceived as violations which he had made against me since 2010 (out of what could be much more):

• Talk:Albanian–Venetian War (1447–1448): Here you can see a constant barrage of WP:IDHT and the flood of messages constantly repeating the same points over and over again.
• : Here he is violating WP:Battle by bringing up an irrelevant topic (Harry Hodgkinson's reliability which we had debated on other topics) in order to trap me into making an admission that the source he mentions is unreliable, even though it had never before been mentioned in the talk page.
• : Here he is again violating WP:Battle by giving me an ultimatum for what he considered original research (for something which I think is WP:Common Sense) and violates the rules of cooperation (although I later changed it the way he asked me, something I could have done much more quickly if he did not try to trap me into an ultimatum).
• : Here he is violating WP:AGF by stating that I hid sources from him (although he later apologized).
• Template talk:Campaignbox Ottoman–Albanian Wars: Here he is again violating WP:IDHT and refusing to cooperate with me even I signalled to him that I wanted to try to reach a consensus (Just so you know, I'm trying to reach a consensus with you...)
• : Here he violates WP:AGF and attacks me for a personal error, also showing blatant incivility.

Like I said, these are only a few of what could be more and they are the cases that I remember most because they are some of the earliest cases. There are many instances where he came into a talk page soon after I edited there for the FIRST time (eg. compare to and compare to ), I assume from constantly checking my contributions log (although there could of course be other ways, but I could find more examples if requested). This is what WP:HOUND says: Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is definitely the impression that I got from his constant confrontation on most of the pages I work on (mostly ones with the medieval history). WP:HOUND also says this: The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason. Although I hate to admit, the main reason I considered retiring from Misplaced Pages (even though I enjoyed it very much) was because I was constantly being Wikihounded by Antidiskriminator. Now that I see that I'm not the only one being Wikihounded, it is clear to me that a topic ban (maybe for three months which he might later be reconsidered) is the best means to rectify this situation, that is, of course, if the administrator is willing to consider it as such.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:49, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Additional comments: It is interesting that Athenean is taking part in this since he rarely ever participated in the topics which Antidiskriminator is being reported for. If I may take a moment here to describe something which I came across when responding to one of Antidiskriminator's messages to me: this diff which leads to this looks like Athenean trying to recruit Antidiskriminator for his witch-hunt of Albanian sock-puppet accounts (many of which have been proven to be false). To me, it seems obvious why Athenean is defending Antidiskrimator here (who most often sparred with Albanian editors at the time), despite rarely participating in the discussions which Antidiskriminator participated at the time. I won't state it explicitly because I believe it is self-evident.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:03, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Athenean says that I am a Wikihounder. I will fully disclose myself as I feel it is necessary: I saved these links from a long time ago in anticipation that I would file a report, but I never got around to it. If I was a true Wikihounder, I would not even include any of these and only include recent diffs. He also says I assume bad faith. I have tried to be as fair as possible (eg. I mentioned that he later apologized) and obviously, this is not entirely possible as I am a human being. (It seems like he is annoyed that I called him out, but I feel like it is necessary to show that he has a horse in this race.)--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:12, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree fully with the comments of Director and endorse them. I have observed the same exact thing.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:33, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Alexikoua's "evidence" that there was a disagreement is so vaguely constructed that anybody could spin it. The topic of disagreement is also so minor that it would be hard to gain any sort of knowledge from it. Alexikoua had no significant stake in the article so he of course conceded. If he did have a stake (ie. if he was a significant editor with plenty of sources), he would be facing a mine of WP:Battle and would face the same annoyance most other editors are finding here. Furthermore, Alexikoua and Antidiskriminator had never (or rarely) disagreed with each other so he therefore faced no hostility.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:56, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Nouniquenames

To the best of my knowledge, I've had no prior interaction with the individuals involved here. Anti could use some polishing, certainly, but (to pick a complaint] above at random) unsourced information is not to stay, and without a deadline, it might stay indefinitely. I can understand the logic, at least, and it certainly wasn't common sense. I didn't see the accused battleground either. Producer seems to show that Anti disagreed about an article's assessment, which is, at best, a content dispute. It seems odd that a RM is considered disruptive, especially given the article's title at the time.

I won't take the space here to go through every point, (in part because I haven't the time,) but if those are a representative sample, I see nothing warranting the requested action, nor necessarily meeting the threshold of hounding. --Nouniquenames 04:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by DIREKTOR

I was largely on the margins of Antidiskriminator's more recent disruptive activities, however in my experience, the user displays a very obvious pattern of POV-pushing and WP:TE. As PRODUCER pointed out above, Antidiskriminator has a daily hobby of creating WP:BATTLEGROUNDS in the form of sixteen sections or so, posted one after the other, where he conducts simultaneous POV-pushing on several topic and several talkpages at once. All singularly according to the Serbian-nationalist point of view. He has WP:WIKIHOUNDED his perceived "anti-Serbian opponents" to several articles, where he continues to simply "oppose" without regard to sources and user consensus.

The user does not edit articles, but merely argues to no end. Consequently, he also never presents specific suggestions, which could allow for a more focused debate that might actually conceivably end at some point. Its just vague, pointless quibbling day after day.

He usually has no sources, or has cherry-picked sources, or his sources are obviously biased to the point of comedy, etc.. Typically, he will post one of his myriad "complaint sections" on a talkpage, demanding some undefined change or other. Even when people arrive and basically say "go ahead, lets see what you have in mind (why aren't you editing?)" - he will actually continue to "debate" even though his edits essentially aren't opposed (cf the eight sections he started just on Talk:Chetniks, particularly this thread). Having no real support in sources, the user will typically attempt to abuse WP:DR, posting a succession of RfCs and 3Os and what not - basically trying to convince others so that he might still push unsourced nonsense into the text.

Generally speaking, the user's conduct is annoying to no end. Productive users who do actual research (like Peacemaker) are forced to deal with his brand of Balkans-nationalist WP:TE and endless disruption day in day out, farcical RfC after farcical RfC - instead of contributing to the project. He never gives up, regardless of how unsupported his position is. When policy is pointed to him, he calls it a "personal attack", basically ignores it, and just continues on - e.g. his ignoring this report as well. For months now the user has been posting one section after another on Talk:Pavle Đurišić, again and again and again, "complaint" after "complaint" in endless succession, one more biased and baseless than the next. Frankly, if the user is not sanctioned now for this wide-scale disruption - I can easily see this sort of nonsense continuing on indefinitely. -- Director (talk) 21:21, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Nick-D

On 19 September Antidiskriminator reposted sections of some of my comments at WP:RSN at Talk:Pavle Đurišić in such a way that they appeared to suggest that I supported their position, when in fact I did not. This was shortly before they were warned of the Eastern European editing restrictions, and when I confronted him or her about on 24 September they apologised. As far as I was concerned the matter was concluded, with no harm done other than further hardening my aversion to offering an opinion on this kind of dispute. However, I'm surprised to see that this fraudulent post attributed to me is still on the article's talk page (I actually thought it had been removed). Nick-D (talk) 08:50, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Fut.Perf.

From my own experience with Antidiskriminator on some Kosovo-related pages, and from observing him from a distance on a number of other "ethnic" troublespots (mostly Serbian-Albanian), I share the view that A. is a textbook case of a tendentious editor and needs to be restricted. It's maybe not so much any one particular set of offensive edits I'd point to, but just the overall picture of the "travelling circus": an endless succcession of tedious, unproductive squabbling, always related to the same predictable agenda issues. For concrete examples, I find Direktor's links to the Pavle Ðurišić talkpage instructive. Talk:Pavle Đurišić#Iron cross controversy is a particular illustrative section, showing an infuriating obtuseness in repeatedly failing to substantiate an alleged NPOV concern when asked to do so. After making an unsourced claim, Antidiskriminator spent three posts over ten days squabbling over the term "original research", until finally beginning to address the obvious issue that he hadn't provided sources to back up his claim; he never proceeded to explaining what point those (foreign-language) sources were actually making. The section a bit further down, related to the same issue (Talk:Pavle Đurišić#Philip Cohen's 'Serbia's Secret War) is equally illustrative. Can't act as an uninvolved admin on this one, but would certainly recommend sanctions of some sort. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:10, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually Antidiskriminator did provide sources with quotes and their translation at the end of the iron cross thread. These remained unreplied it seems. I agree that his initial approach was unproductive. Tijfo098 (talk) 14:39, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

No. He did that only after seeing Fut. Perf's comment. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 14:44, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

You're right; I should have checked the chronology more carefully. There's indeed a six-week gap between Antidiskriminator's last post there (Oct 13) and Peacemaker67's last post above it (Sep 28). Tijfo098 (talk) 14:48, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Tijfo098

Looking at the threads indicated by FPaS I think Peacemaker67 deserves and equal restriction. He repeatedly brushed off several RS/N discussions that brought in question (w/academic reviews) the source Peacemaker67 was relying upon (Cohen). That such a source is used in a FA only shows how pathetic Misplaced Pages really is. If one side can use yellow journalism in articles then so can the other. And don't say it was published by an academic publisher. It's an obscure university press publishing someone with no degree in history (and who found real success in Croatia). See the recently closed thread we had on User:JCAla, who was heavily relying on a similar book for a comparison. Tijfo098 (talk) 15:31, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

It would not be correct to say Antidiskriminator was wrong in his demands and "complaints" every single time: that would be quite an achievement. When someone posts dozens upon dozens of threads pushing in the same nationalist-POV direction, one or two are bound to have some kind of real support. I myself agreed that he might have a point several times, including the Cohen issue. But equally as such cases are drops in a sea of WP:TE are Peacemaker's possible errors of the above sort only drops in the sea of excellent, diligent, and thoroughly-researched contribution on a very difficult and obscure topic. Whereas antid is there merely to squabble and complain, continuously and without end, Peacemaker is the guy who's hard work and extensive contribs he's criticizing.

When someone harasses and hounds you all over the project, impeding your efforts with incessant, pointless, malicious bickering, it's hard to view the 27th complaint in good faith. I've often remarked on the tendency to simply "block everybody" or treat everyone as equally "guilty", but to treat these two users in such a way might be a new low in that regard. Their behavior and value to the project are not even comparable. That's my take anyway. -- Director (talk) 16:24, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I think part of the problem here is Misplaced Pages's inherently flawed system of "review". Basically Antidiskriminator was raising talk page points about perceived flaws in the article, while Peacemaker67 was complaining (sometimes using colorful phrases like "Blind Freddy" as in this thread) that Antidiskriminator is not editing the article. Outside of Misplaced Pages, a reviewer will not edit your paper. And in the few occasions that outside opinion was solicited (as in that thread I linked), both Antidiskriminator and Peacemaker67 were found to advance statements not supported by the sources cited (cf. WP:3O provided by User:Gigs there). Perhaps in the overall picture one is more at fault than the other, but in this article, I don't see why one should be sanctioned and the other not. Tijfo098 (talk) 20:47, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Your point is academic. This is not outside WP, this IS WP and policies and norms of WP apply. Peacemaker67 (talk) 01:20, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Here's a less academic point. Read Talk:Ante_Pavelić#Unbeliveable_and_Laughable. There Peacemaker67 supports the inclusion of a source which says that "There was not even the slightest indication of antisemitism in the Ustaša ". I fully support a topic ban on him at this point. Tijfo098 (talk) 23:29, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

And speaking of the regulars in this area: the bio that DIREKTOR + PRODUCER produced for Jozo Tomasevich was laughable, by the way. Stanford University in San Francisco, eh? Nobody caught that for 6 months. Gives you pause about Misplaced Pages's readers. Oh, and he didn't actually teach at Stanford. But according to Peacemaker67 he called Ante Pavelic with the appellation "Dr." Hmm.... Tijfo098 (talk) 23:51, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Now just wait a second. Firstly, I can't imagine what that has to do with anything. Secondly, if you're looking for random irregularities in the "Balkalns Articles" I suggest you set aside a few months for the search alone. Thirdly, I can't remember anymore but I'm reasonably certain people didn't actually make things up there: at best those are good faith errors, but also, here's a link from stanford.edu describing Tomasevich as "Stanford's professor" . (If you think that the location of Stanford is general knowledge over here half-way across the world - think again :). We're more acquainted with places like the peaceful university town of Sorbonne..)

Finally, as I believe this is a 💕, I don't think anyone could possibly be topic banned for advocating the reliability of a scholarly source with some considerable peer review support, not without an action appeal anyway. I recommend Tijfo, that you view antid's behavior on the whole, rather than just this Cohen business, which seems to have struck a cord? The matter was discussed at WP:RSN, you don't propose to sanction everyone who didn't oppose Cohen's inclusion? (btw, I do agree that he probably isn't RS, now that I've had time to refresh my memory, but being wrong isn't something you sanction people for - as opposed to a pattern of nationalist POV-pushing and TE). That's it from me, I'm off to the islands and will need to declare a wikibreak :)

P.s. That Cohen quote is very much out of context. He is there referring to the early years of the Ustaše, when they were under Mussolini's wing. At that time Mussolini didn't express much anti-semitic sentiment either. And Cohen is Jewish after all, kind of hard to imagine him excusing anti-semitisim. -- Director (talk) 00:32, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

With respect Tijfo098, can we try to keep this on topic and in context? You have so far raised out-of-context content issues on Ante Pavelic and seriously misrepresented the discussions at that. You have also seriously misrepresented and exaggerated discussions on RSN and at Pavle Djurisic about Cohen. My understanding of this place on WP is that you need to try to focus your discussion on the behaviour of Antidiskriminator that is the subject of the report, not obscure matters with off-topic discussions of my work on Ante Pavelic, where Antidiskriminator has yet to appear. If you think that my conduct on Ante Pavelic warrants a report, please go ahead, but this thread is clearly not the place. Peacemaker67 (talk) 01:20, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Just to set the record straight the quote that Tijfo098 is mocking and even advocating topic-banning Peacemaker over is actually from Ivo Goldstein and a part of a work from the Jewish Studies at the Central European University. This is what's really "laughable" here. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 16:33, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Admins should note the WP:BATTLE conduct of the DIREKTOR - PRODUCER - Peacemaker troika, who repeatedly bring issues unrelated to article improvement to Talk:Jozo Tomasevich. Tijfo098 (talk) 09:20, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I say you come here with unclean hands. You brought issues unrelated to this AE report to this forum, which was completely inappropriate. Peacemaker67 (talk) 09:33, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Alexikoua

I really don't see anything remotely actionable according to this limited ammount of evidence provided against Antidiskriminator. In fact Antidiskriminator is one of the few editors that strictly follows the guidelines, especially about Balkan related topics. Although in the past I had some minor content disputes with him, I was surprised with the way he approaches the various issues and welcomes any third part opinion.

If one Balkan editor should receive some kind of restriction that's off course not him.Alexikoua (talk) 12:59, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

For example here ] I was firmly against the creation of Independent Albania article by Antit., nevertheless he was kind enough to answer this ]. Although I was still against the creation of this article Antint. is one of the few editors that stays calm and avoids to make things hot.Alexikoua (talk) 17:51, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning User:Antidiskriminator

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Admins should look at two matters: (a) Chetnik disputes, (b) article name disputes regarding Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia. I'm more familiar with the second, so let me start by noting the obvious parallel between this case and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive114#PANONIAN from last April. That request led to an indefinite topic ban for PANONIAN, mostly for refusing to accept consensus on talk pages. The scope of the ban was "all articles and discussions pertaining to Serbian history that took place more than 20 years ago". I do see similarity between PANONIAN's posts and those of Antidiskriminator, and in many cases it's on the same topic, this military district that for some people is very hard to name. I am struck by the endlessly repeated move requests, with no good rationale for why there was a problem with the previous request except for coming up with the wrong answer. I hope other admins have time to check out Talk:Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia as well as the three most recent talk archives, the ones numbered 7, 8 and 9. If other reviewers agree that the PANONIAN case is a good parallel we might consider the same remedy, a topic ban that keeps Antidiskiminator from working on Serbian history that is more than 20 years ago.

• This move dispute has continued to generate tens of thousands of words since it was at AE last May, with many of the talk discussions being very repetitious. This pattern is actually reminiscent of some Arbcom cases involving islands in the Far East. Acting under discretionary sanctions last January, an administrator decided to ban the initiation of any new move requests regarding the Senkaku Islands for one year. EdJohnston (talk) 02:05, 22 October 2012 (UTC)