Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:12, 15 November 2012

Dick is taking a short wikibreak and will be back on Misplaced Pages eventually. I'm running on low for a while, and should just leave it alone until I finish my book, but I backslide.

Please add new talk topics at the bottom of the page, and sign with ~~~~

		The Original Barnstar
		I'm not sure why you haven't picked up a bevy of these already, but thanks for all your effort, particularly in tracking down good sources with diagrams, etc., on the photography- and color-related articles (not to mention fighting vandalism). Those areas of Misplaced Pages are much richer for your work. Cheers! —jacobolus (t) 02:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

		The Photographer's Barnstar
		To Dicklyon on the occasion of your photograph of Ivan Sutherland and his birthday! What a great gift. -User:SusanLesch 04:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

		All Around Amazing Barnstar
		For your hard work in improving and watching over the Ohm's law article SpinningSpark 00:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

		The Original Barnstar
		For your improvements to the Centrifugal force articles. Your common sense approach of creating a summary-style article at the simplified title, explaining the broad concepts in a way that is accessible to the general reader and linking to the disambiguated articles, has provided Misplaced Pages's readership with a desperately needed place to explain in simple terms the basic concepts involved in understanding these related phenomena. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 14:29, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

		The Surreal Barnstar
		For your comment here which at once admits your own errors with humility yet focusses our attention upon the real villain Egg Centric (talk) 17:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Taking my break more seriously for a while...RL calls. Dicklyon (talk) 03:58, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

meridians

I noticed that you were a proponent of lower-casing the meridians, and lower case has prevailed. I stayed out of the discussion because I didn't feel strongly one way or the other. I think a case could be made for proper names in the same sense that Main Street or Fifth Avenue are proper names. Anyhow, I started to help out by cleaning up prime meridian and Paris meridian, then noticed these:

• List of principal and guide meridians and base lines of the United States
• Category:Meridians and base lines of the United States

I haven't looked to see if there were similar articles for other countries. What to do about these. I'm thinking that WP:RETAIN maybe should have been applied here. Someone (Jengod) went to a lot of trouble to enter them all, as proper names. I started, but thought you could help. -Wbm1058 (talk) 20:43, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't look like a national varieties issues, so I'll work on it. Dicklyon (talk) 21:47, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

All fixed. Let me know if you see any more meridians that need fixing. Dicklyon (talk) 01:51, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Looks better, thanks. You could check "what links here" for all the capitalized versions, for example, several articles still link to the capitalized version of Fifth Principal Meridian (and thus use capital Meridian in the article). -Wbm1058 (talk) 12:58, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Jacobite Rising of 1745

I'm presuming this is probably correct WP:CAPS, but since you seem to know this guideline best just noting it. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:02, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

The guideline says we capitalize if sources do so consistently. Here, the majority of books use lower case . Capitalizing "Rising" makes it look like part of a name, obscuring its true meaning as a generic gerund. Dicklyon (talk) 16:02, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

The ngram didn't play on my PC, but a Googlebook shows that suspicion was justified. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:02, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I started a conversation about it at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Military terms. Not much action yet. Dicklyon (talk) 03:15, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Sampling theorem, whee

Well, thanks for fixing my mistake. I shouldn't try to do this when slightly sleepy, obviously. I have the feeling the original article could still use better wording to avoid being easily confusable with other similar statements, but I'm not up to determining what it is yet due to the keyboard-breaking levels of humiliation temporarily knocking out my reasoning. Any ideas? Drake Wilson (talk) 06:53, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Inverter

Hi Dick:

It seems to me that inverter got hijacked to Power inverter following a misguided action on Talk:Power inverter. The "power inverter" isn't an inverter anyway; this article should be moved to Power converter and the whole topic of inverter revisited. It refers to The Authoritative Dictionary of IEEE Standards Terms, but that is not on-line accessible, so I don't know if this is simply an optional definition. What is your take? Brews ohare (talk) 14:34, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

It's curious that although many books use the term "power inverter" in their subheadings and titles, in their actual discussion they revert immediately to the term "power converter", as in AC-DC power converter. For example, Tao & Wu and Rashid. Brews ohare (talk) 14:43, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

The term inverter for that is very common in the non-technical literature, though. I agree that the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC-based hijacking of the Inverter disambig page was inappropriate. I left the closer a note about the discussion. Dicklyon (talk) 16:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Meridian naming

The named meridians are proper nouns and like "Mountains" in Rocky Mountains and Pole in South Pole is capitalized, Meridian in Paris Meridian should be kept capitalized. I started a talk at Talk:Meridian (geography)#Dubious page moves. HTML2011 (talk) 21:41, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Double !vote

Hi Dick - just wanted to let you know that you double !voted at Talk:Loving You (disambiguation)‎. I'm sure it wasn't on purpose, and I left a note on the page, but thought I'd let you know. Dohn joe (talk) 18:42, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons

Invitation to diacritics guideline discussion at WT:BLP

Hi, you were one of 100+ Users who has commented on a living person Requested Move featuring diacritics (e.g. the é in Beyoncé Knowles) in the last 30 days. Following closure of Talk:Stephane Huet RM, a tightening of BLP guidelines is proposed. Your contribution is invited to WT:BLP to discuss drafting a proposal for tightening BLP accuracy guidelines for names. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to duplicate this invite on the pages of others who have commented, for or against. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for your comment, I have reworded last para to more clearly invite edits as you have suggested. Personally I'd be very happy to let someone else draft this. But this disruption needs to stop. When I sent out invites it was quite clear that there was a massive support of non-sport editors for accurate names. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
  • btw - any idea how many BLPs there are? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:54, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
    • lots. Dicklyon (talk) 15:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Wavelength

Dick: I find it unlikely that anyone gives a damn about including a few sentences about Fourier series in Wavelength except you and I.

Is your opposition based upon the idea that adding a quote about Fourier series is "bloat", or something else?

It is hard for me to see that this short reference to Fourier series is out of place - it is the only expansion of a periodic function valid over its entire domain, and the only one that is made up of terms that are themselves periodic functions with wavelengths of their own, wavelengths simply related to those of the function itself.

I don';t see any way to argue that Fourier series are not a major topic. Leaving them out is like talking about the US Mint without mentioning money. Brews ohare (talk) 17:37, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I see wisdom has directed you not to reply to my observations here. However, I'd like to pursue this matter a bit further.

The brouhaha on Talk:Wavelength in the abstract amounts to a quarrel over whether a hugely important and well-known topic A that relies on a concept explained in topic B should be given a heads-up in the article on underlying topic B. In the abstract, I cannot see where any objection can be raised provided the heads-up doesn't violate WP:Undue.

Perhaps a wrinkle in this abstract argument would be to add that if topic Ω subsumes the topic A, then Ω should be referred to in preference to topic A. That seems logical with this proviso: topic Ω should make use of topic B. That is the rub here.

Dick, your objections arise from the notion that Fourier series is a plebeian topic A best seen from the stance of general Fourier integral representations of arbitrary and not necessarily periodic functions, topic Ω. That may be the optimal point of view from which to understand Fourier series.

However, the topic B here is wavelength and it happens to be the case that Fourier series actually employs the concept of wavelength and spatial periodicity explicitly and fundamentally, while more general representations Ω of arbitrary waveforms do not. So it is appropriate to link to Fourier series A and not to some more general all-encompassing theory Ω that actually does not need the periodicity of the represented waveform because the waveform is represented in Ω only over a limited domain, perhaps an interval chosen to be a wavelength, but depending in no way upon the interval being a wavelength.

Any comments? Brews ohare (talk) 15:16, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

John, I think your RFC was a success in that it brought in lots of people to say that you had failed to make a sensible connection between the topics. I think you need to go back and review what makes sine waves unique with respect to the topic of wavelength, and then try again, using that to motivate a connection to Fourier series. Statements like "Fourier series actually employs the concept of wavelength and spatial periodicity explicitly and fundamentally" just confirm that you're far off track. Dicklyon (talk) 17:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Dick: Thanks for engaging. I'd like you to help me out here. I don't understand the reaction to what seems to me to be a very straightforward and limited statement. The connection to me comes down to this:

1. Wavelength is defined by f(x+λ) = f(x).

2. Fourier series describe any function satsifying f(x+λ) = f(x)

3. Fourier series for such functions directly involve sinusoids with wavelengths expressed as integral fractions of λ

There is the connection. Aside from the connection, which I suspect everyone gets that really has an interest beyond the drama of debate, is the issue of why it should be mentioned. Is that the problem with acceptance? Brews ohare (talk) 17:46, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Let's take the conversation back to the article talk page please. Maybe someone where will be able to get you to see the answer that I have failed repeatedly to get you to hear. Dicklyon (talk) 18:40, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Seeking your psychoacoustic input

Hi, Dick: There is an interesting question over at Key (music) about how to nail down a definition of the tonal center of a piece of music, or rather how we can even be sure such a thing as "musical resolution" is empirically demonstrable. Jerome Kohl put it thus: "if some innocent comes along and tells us there is no pitch centre, how can we prove that we are not wearing the Emperor's New Clothes?"

Mind checking it out if you have a spare tick or two? regards, Just plain Bill (talk) 20:02, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Key is one of the great mysteries of musical life; I don't think I can unravel it. Dicklyon (talk) 21:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, figured it wouldn't hurt to ask. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 21:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of Filmizing for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Filmizing is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Filmizing until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Schmidt, 05:59, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

FYI

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Wtshymanski (FYI only, no action required) --Guy Macon (talk) 01:48, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the touch-ups to my new posts! All the best, Patrick Gill (talk) 01:16, 6 May 2012 (UTC).

Vogel

I updated the link to the source I used for the article on Vogel. Pinkville (talk) 12:28, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see, a ref but no inline citations. I don't read French, so maybe you could cite where appropriate where the "citation needed" tags are? Dicklyon (talk) 06:30, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration Request for clarification

I have raised the recent discussions at Wavelength here:

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request_for_clarification:_Wikipedia:Arbitration.2FRequests.2FCase.2FSpeed_of_light

I don't know if you want to add yourself or otherwise get involved.--JohnBlackburne_deeds 00:20, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Acps110, en dashes, and NYC subway station names

A month after you made the change, quite per policy, User:Acps110 reverted your amendment to the NYC subway project naming conventions, apparently claiming that "no consensus was achieved". When, in fact, that only reflects a discussion last summer that definitively amended the MOS, and therefore consensus doesn't matter one bit.

It's been quite a while since I came face to face with this degree of apparently willful disregard of policy here (you were there, as well, the last time), so I am letting and TwinsMetsFan you know not so much to organize some sort of posse but just so that you know, and so that we can all try to find some way to resolve this the way we're supposed to do. Because this happened again almost two months ago, and he has apparently completely ignored my message to him at the time, meaning I would to have consider that a failed attempt at resolving the problem. I am not ready to go where that would lead, at least not yet. What are your thoughts? Daniel Case (talk) 03:29, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Since there is already a header for this...

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is User:Daniel Case disrupting Misplaced Pages to prove a point. Thank you. Acps110 18:51, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/RjwilmsiBot 8

Hi, your input to Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/RjwilmsiBot 8 would be helpful please to further explain the value of the task. Thanks Rjwilmsi 06:32, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks ...

for that. Qute as my typo was, it qlearly mussed up the page. Best — cardiff | _chestnut — 23:01, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Jim and Don would not be happy had I not fixed it. Dicklyon (talk) 23:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Abt deletion

I do not understand why my quote was deleted from the Steve Jobs article. Unsourced and malformed? Expecting a quick reply.--NAIRMayukh 09:32, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Unsourced means you did not cite a reliable source for it. Malformed means you broke it up into a bunch of paragraphs for no apparent reason. You can fix these things when you put it back. Dicklyon (talk) 16:12, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. i will put it back soon, though you could have resolved the errors yourself. But who am I to order people around? :p --NAIRMayukh 05:06, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You're thinking that I could have discovered your source and cited it? Perhaps so. Dicklyon (talk) 05:09, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

35mm equivalent reproduction ratio

Re: Your notability tag: Your note says "restore notability tag; see talk page about that". But there is nothing here about it. DSiegfried (talk) 18:43, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I meant the article talk page: Talk:35mm equivalent reproduction ratio. Dicklyon (talk) 18:46, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

please first think, then TALK and then act (destructively) if really neccessary

would you please make a constructive explanation on the talk-page and not a blind deletion in the article golden ratio. PLEASE Achim1999 (talk) 21:15, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

My suggestion is rather that your additions be justified first, since you've been on a bloat blitz there. Dicklyon (talk) 21:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Then my advice: make a write-protection on this page for normal wikipedia-users! Else avoid this totally subjective judgment (since you've been on a bloat blitz) of WHAT WHO is allowed to change. Achim1999 (talk) 23:03, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Link Spam of Data Structures

I've been adding links to known Java implementations of several data structures, not sure why you consider it spam. I've checked the guidelines and there is nothing in there guiding someone not to add implementations and there are already many implementations list on each page.

Justin Wetherell

When an editor does nothing but add external links, I consider them to be a link spammer. If there are good reasons for have more implementation links, make your case on the relevant article talk pages. Dicklyon (talk) 21:47, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Your contributions might be better-received if you did not link them to your own userpage. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative project, not a place to showcase your personal work.. --hydrox (talk) 22:09, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, I reverted him so fast I didn't even notice he was linking his user page in articles! Dicklyon (talk) 06:48, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Exif image

Hi, I made File:EXIF Canon 500D .JPG. Is there a use for it in the article? The article hasn't been edited in a while so I thought I would ask you in case no one has it on watch lists. We can edit the existing image or upload another as well.--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:45, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know. It's hard to present info in an image that way. And screen shots are usually frowned on for copyright reasons. A table might be better; but there is one already. Dicklyon (talk) 06:51, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

No problem. I created it for privacy discussions that are going on in commons. Feel free to archive/delete this section.--Canoe1967 (talk) 07:59, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

RFAR Perth opened

An arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Perth. Evidence that you wish the Arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence sub-page, at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Perth/Evidence. Please add your evidence by January 8, 2012, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can contribute to the case workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Perth/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Lord Roem (talk) 18:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Full service (restaurant) red link

Hello, Dicklyon. I recently edited Full service to add a link to the currently nonexistent page Full service (restaurant). You removed the red link with the edit summary, "ce; rm item with no support in linked article". There were other changes in your edit, but I assume the red link is the removed link you meant.

I actually added red links to that non-existent page on Winery, Ruby Tuesday (restaurant), and Nickerson Farms. Until I did, each linked to Full service. (I also linked a few dozen other pages to the appropriate target, mostly Full service (radio format).)

I thought the page Full service (restaurant) would be an appropriate link, even though it doesn't yet exist. Per MOS:DAB, "A link to a non-existent article (a "red link") should only be included on a disambiguation page when an article (not just disambiguation pages) also includes that red link. Do not create red links to articles that are unlikely ever to be written, or are likely to be removed as insufficiently notable topics." Since three pages already (apparently) intended to link to a page describing or defining the concept of "full service" in restaurants, I concluded that such page was like to be written. You may disagree, or you may believe that such a page is unlikely to be notable. If that is the case, I wonder if you think the various "full services" (restaurant, hotel, car wash, service station, rest area) should be removed from the DAB page?

Thanks, and happy editing. Cnilep (talk) 03:53, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I took out the redlink because the restaurant link in the item had support for full-service restaurant already, and there should only be one link per item. You can redirect the redlink to that section and put it back if you like. The item with no support that I removed was engineering. Dicklyon (talk) 03:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Even better, make it Full-service restaurant, since articles named for adjectives are not normal. Dicklyon (talk) 03:57, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, there's no good section to redirect to, but you could add something to Restaurant#Types. I updated the dab page; you'll probably want to use that link in the articles where you put the redlink. Dicklyon (talk) 04:00, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I replaced all the redlinks. Feel free to work on a better redirect or article at full-service restaurant. Dicklyon (talk) 05:33, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Great, thanks for the reply and happy editing. Cnilep (talk) 07:16, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

E=mc Talk Nomenclature

Please, could you check if the references are satisfactory to use the section "Nomenclature" in the article? Talk:Mass–energy_equivalence --C. Trifle (talk) 16:03, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Minor edits

I hope I can trouble you to mark minor edits such as this as minor when you submit them. This will help keep watchlists in check. Thanks. --Kvng (talk) 14:12, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I pretty much do only minor edits, like case and punctuation fixes such as those, and reverts of vandalism and nonsense, these days (plus some talk page comments like in requested moves). I'm "on break" from actual creative work here. Is there a way to make "minor" the default so I don't have to think about it. Dicklyon (talk) 16:28, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I looked in preferences but there doesn't appear to be anything. --Kvng (talk) 12:59, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

There used to be such an option, but for some reason we can't have nice things like that any more. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 14:08, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Carbon mono/dioxide DAB

What is wrong with it? The only reason why i was warring was to communicate. Here are some reasons why it is not silly.

- Carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide are VERY similar sounding.

- They are both produced by burning

- they are both bad

- They are both sometimes referred to simply as "carbon".

Also, not just experienced chemists would be reading the articles. CO and CO2 are general interest topics. People want to learn about global warming and other effects of CO2, and on the toxicity of CO. Many of these may mix them (or at least their abbreviations) up. I cant remember where, but it said that all general interest articles should be made comprehensible to an average highschool student (not a GATE student). Many of them at least say that the chemical formula for Di- is CO. When was the last time you talked to someone who wasn't a chemist? At least mention each other in the see also. Ticklewickleukulele (talk) 00:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Each of the articles already links the other under "related compounds". I've never heard of these being confused, or being referred to as "carbon"; a "not to be confused with" hatnote is rarely used, and only where there is real ambiguity or a good reason to expect confusion. I don't hang out with any chemists, but I did help my kids get through chemistry class, so I know a bit myself. Dicklyon (talk) 05:27, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Not everyone knoes how to use that box. Also, they have been referred to as carbon (E.g., "Carbon footprint,", "carbonated beverages," "Putting carbon in the air", etc.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ticklewickleukulele (talk • contribs) 18:01, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Not really; see Carbon footprint and Carbonate. Dicklyon (talk) 22:16, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Vietnamese)#RfC_on_spelling

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Vietnamese)#RfC_on_spelling. KarlB (talk) 13:45, 22 July 2012 (UTC)Template:Z48

New template

I created a new template for listing old move discussions: {{Oldmoves}}, since I missed having it during the Cote d'Ivoire and other debates. Please take a look and tweak/change/improve. I've added it to a few articles Talk:Queen_Victoria, Talk:Ivory_Coast, Talk:Cần_Thơ as a pilot so you can see what it looks like; if you like it, you can add it to other articles you've worked on. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:56, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Move review

Are you aware of the move review on the Las Vegas, Nevada move? Vegaswikian (talk) 01:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

No, I was not. Where is it? I don't see anything on the talk page. I'm packing for vacation, so may not find time to say much. Dicklyon (talk) 04:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response since I don't watch your talk. The discussion is here. As I noted on the talk page there is what I think a flaw in the notification process. I suspect that some editors did not see the notice because of their watch lists. But as I recall, no one has commented on the MR talk page about my concern there. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Wtshymanski again

I saw the Wtshymanski AfD for 2N7000, now he tries an AfD for "Switched-mode power supply applications" in the same manner. Electron9 (talk) 03:22, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Probably just because he doesn't like you. I see your first ref is by buds Urs and Bill. Dicklyon (talk) 03:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Guess he got put of by having his "turf" subforked ;-) Didn't get what you mean with "first ref is buds Urs and Bill" ? Electron9 (talk) 04:17, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Never mind. Dicklyon (talk) 04:19, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Jasidih–Dumka–Rampurhat railway

Hi, i saw the page move Jasidih–Dumka–Rampurhat railway. I am not challenging the page move, just wanted to know the guideline that supports this, so that I can be careful in future as well. Thanks and regards--DBigXray 14:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Combination of MOS:DASH and MOS:CAPS, and trying to make the title more like the article text and similar articles (railway instead of rail line). Dicklyon (talk) 14:34, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Notice that I also made the redirect from Jasidih-Dumka-Rampurhat railway. Dicklyon (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Formatting equations within text

I would be grateful for your advice about this.

Some time ago, someone (I think it may have been you, but I'm not certain about that) told me that equations within the text of articles should be done using the math|A template - I then followed this rule. Now someone has said the contrary in Talk:Kirchhoff's diffraction formula and altered all the equations in the article accordngly.

Is there a standard rule for Misplaced Pages or is this a case of doctors disagreeeing? I'm happy to go along with whatever it is, but need to know.

Cheers Epzcaw (talk) 20:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

It seems unlikely that I would have told you it's the usual way to go, as I seldom use it myself, but it does make better looking math in text than either html or math mode does. I don't know if there's any standard, or any good way to resolve opinions on such things, but I'm sure there's a guideline about it somewhere. Looks like MOS:MATH if the place to read. Let me know what you find... Dicklyon (talk) 20:39, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I think the answer is here. This suggests to me that while HTML is much easier to produce, and usually gives the same result as Tex, the use of TeX is likely to be more precise and more repeatable across different browsers and therefore on the whole superior. The article does not, however, prescribe its use. I will continue to use it, and can't help thinking that F = q has not done any favours by removing it from the Kirchoff diffraction article.

Cheers again Epzcaw (talk) 08:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

The math template is pure html, I think, unlike the LaTeX math-mode tags. Dicklyon (talk) 03:21, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Stops

In http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Image_sensor_format&diff=504378803&oldid=504350047 you claim a difference between stops and F-numbers ("Those are stops, not f-numbers; unlink f-number if you like"), but refer to F-number in the link. I don't want to unlink; I would like to know what a stop is, if it is not a colloquial term for an f-number? I know it is not a bus stop or a full stop - but what is it then? Please link to the correct explanation, thanks! --G.Hagedorn (talk) 20:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

A stop is a factor of two change in exposure, or film speed, or aperture area, or shutter speed. It's sometimes called a "step", but a "stop" is more familiar. For example, between the f-numbers 4 and 5.6 is one stop. Between 4 and 8 is two stops, etc. See F-stop#Stops, f-stop conventions, and exposure. I updated the link to go there. Dicklyon (talk) 21:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Would calling it "relative EV" or "light sensitivity (EV)", linking to Exposure value make more sense? The caption currently says "Stop" (Area), i.e. an f-stop expressed in the dimension of "area" (implied area of the chip). Without an aperture, as a property of a chip, that makes no sense to me. Perhaps the column needs explaining in the text above, I don't know. G.Hagedorn (talk) 20:10, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

It's not a particularly apt use of stops, I agree. The idea is to express the ratio of how much light gets used to make the image, when the sensor and lens are scaled together, keeping the f-number and exposure and EV constant. So it's not an EV difference; but it is equivalent to a sensitivity difference; but not an ISO speed difference. How confusing. Dicklyon (talk) 21:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

about the images

ok I’ll have it in mind when uploading any other image, thanks for the advise Iskander HFC (talk) 05:31, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Marilyn Monroe

• Yes, there was a memorial service. We have pictures from the service and will post soon. Socalphoto (talk) 02:50, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I have no doubt. But you'd need a WP:RS to say so in wikipedia. Surely it will make the newspapers... Dicklyon (talk) 02:51, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I propose to wait

for a couple of days before starting RfC at Talk:Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia in order to get more alternative proposals? There is an invitation to members of WikiProject Serbia and WikiProject Yugoslavia to join this discussion. Maybe somebody would have better proposal than Serbia under German occupation.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:31, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

RM is closed. Members of WPS or WPY had enough time to join the discussion. Are you still for RfC or you think that another RM would be better?

English is not my native language. Will you please be so kind to tell me your opinion about German-occupied Serbia in sense of English grammar? There are few articles like German-occupied Europe which contains similar expression, but I am still unsure if such construction is allowed.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:07, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that seems like a perfectly good name for it. It is very common in books. There's nothing wrong with trying another RM, and reserve RFC for if it gets totally wedged. Dicklyon (talk) 16:38, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

August 2012. Battles of the Mexican–American War

Hello Diclyon: According to information I have which I got from various publications such as:

• Tabasco: Una historia compartida/ Arias Gómez Mária Eugenia/ 1987/ Gobierno del estado de Tabasco/ isbn=968-6173-11-0
• Tabasco: Textos de su historia Vol. 1/ Arias Gómez Mária Eugenia/ 1985/ Gobierno del estado de Tabasco/ isbn=968-889-015-4
• Villahermosa Nuestra Ciudad/ Torruco Saravia Geney/ 1987/ H. Ayuntamiento Comstitucional de Centro/ oclc=253403147

the First Battle of Tabasco ended with mexican victory, as the forces commanded by Commodore Matthew C. Perry, could not take the city, having to withdraw to the port of Frontera, culminating in this way the battle. In June 1847 Commodore Perry would return to stage the Second Battle of Tabasco, ending with a U.S. victory. Thanks and greetings. Alfonsobouchot (talk) 02:27, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

But you gave no edit summary or other hint that your edit was anything but random vandalism. Dicklyon (talk) 03:08, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, yes, sorry, I forgot to write the edit summary. Thanks and greetings Alfonsobouchot (talk) 22:51, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia

G'day Dicklyon, Just a small observation, take it with a grain of salt if you like. Reading through your comments on the RM, I noticed that you had a look at the article and felt it was not about the territory. Last time we went through all this with User:Buckshot06 and decided on the current title, I was so exhausted by the never-ending prattle in hard to understand prose that I admit to leaving the article alone for a while after we staggered over the line. All I got done was the lead and some of the first section (down to the end of the second para of 'Invasion and partition'). Then I went off to be productive where my every edit wasn't going to be reverted. My point is not to draw too much of a conclusion from the rest of the article, it badly needs renovating, its structure is pretty ordinary etc. And thanks for being devil's advocate and staying neutral, it's pretty rare in the Balkans articles. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:45, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Slender Man

Hi Dick. Please see User talk:Fuhghettaboutit#Slender Man a thread in which you might have some input or interest.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:23, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dick. I appreciate you guys were in a bind regarding Slender Man but in future the next time you are faced with creating an un-redirectable redirect, if you could discuss it on the talk page of the article you intend to redirect to, that would be appreciated. Thanks. :-) Serendious 14:38, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

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Wouldn't the most accurate term for UHDTV be "ultra-high definition television"?

Rec. 2020 uses the term "ultra-high definition television". Since that is the ITU-R Recommendation that will be the basis for UHDTV wouldn't that be the most accurate term for it? --GrandDrake (talk) 03:25, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Just depends on what you mean by accurate. Some sources also say "ultra high-definition television" and "ultra-high-definition television". As a fan of using English punctuation rules to help convey meaning, I prefer the latter. And it's more consistent with "high-definition television", which is obviously the best way to do that one. The form "ultra-high definition television" suggests a definition television that is ultra high, and is naturally preferred by those who were previously OK with omitting hyphens as in "high definition television". I think it is WP style to try to convey meaning clearly by utilizing the tools of English punctuation correctly. Dicklyon (talk) 18:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I can understand that you believe that you know what is best in terms of English punctuation rules but Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia that should be based on references. You have moved the UHDTV page twice now without discussion and I believe that an international standard that will be the basis for UHDTV would be the most reliable reference. --GrandDrake (talk) 03:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

WT:CAPS

Hi, your advice appreciated on Foo Province and Foo Dynasty. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:45, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1)

Welcome to the first edition of The Olive Branch. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in dispute resolution (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are active in DR, but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to this page.

In this issue:

• Background: A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
• Research: The most recent DR data
• Survey results: Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
• Activity analysis: Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
• DR Noticeboard comparison: How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
• Discussion update: Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
• Proposal: It's time to close the Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts noticeboard. Agree or disagree?

--The Olive Branch 18:58, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Colorfulness

Heads-up Talk:Colorfulness#Requested move (I am working thorough the backlog of {{movenotice}}s on the article page which do not have corresponding {{requested move}}s on the talk page, and this old one came out in the wash). -- PBS (talk) 14:48, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Invitation to comment at Monty Hall problem RfC

You are invited to comment on the following RfC:

Talk:Monty Hall problem#Conditional or Simple solutions for the Monty Hall problem?

--Guy Macon (talk) 22:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

case fixes

Some of the "Door x" stuff was in quotes from at least one source. Just FYI. At one point all instances of "door x" were "Door x" (for consistency). If you feel strongly it should simply be "door x" I guess I don't care - except where it's from a quote. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I did note and retain caps in quotes; if I missed one or more, please fix. But some of those in quotation marks didn't appear to be quotes (or I was unable to verify them as quotes). Dicklyon (talk) 04:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Random-access

I don't disagree with you particularly but I think we should get consensus before making these changes. Jojalozzo 03:11, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I think consensus is as represented in WP:HYPHEN. If nobody objects, we have consensus. So why do you object? Dicklyon (talk) 03:13, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

It's possible we'll run into McCandlish's WP:Specialist style fallacy but I think it's worth checking before changing what appears to be a general pattern of practice. Jojalozzo 03:16, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Not clear what you mean by run into. Certainly specialist styles are more likely to drop the hyphens, but we have a generalist style, don't we? Dicklyon (talk) 03:20, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

From what I have seen there is no consensus on specialist source usage versus MOS guidance. I think, since the hyphen is not common, this may be a case where specialist editors are attached to their standard practice. Two approaches for dealing with that are 1) ask first in hopes that MOS-compliance is welcome (but risk stirring up trouble) or 2) be bold and hope MOS-compliance goes unnoticed for long enough to become accepted practice. Jojalozzo 04:03, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #2)

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This edition The Olive Branch is focusing on a 2nd dispute resolution RfC. Two significant proposals have been made. Below we describe the background and recent progress and detail those proposals. Please review them and follow the link at the bottom to comment at the RfC. We need your input!

View the full newsletter

Background Until late 2003, Jimmy Wales was the arbiter in all major disputes. After the Mediation Committee and the Arbitration Committee were founded, Wales delegated his roles of dispute resolution to these bodies. In addition to these committees, the community has developed a number of informal processes of dispute resolution. At its peak, over 17 dispute resolution venues existed. Disputes were submitted in each venue in a different way. Due to the complexity of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution, members of the community were surveyed in April 2012 about their experiences with dispute resolution. In general, the community believes that dispute resolution is too hard to use and is divided among too many venues. Many respondents also reported their experience with dispute resolution had suffered due to a shortage of volunteers and backlogging, which may be due to the disparate nature of the process. An evaluation of dispute resolution forums was made in May this year, in which data on response and resolution time, as well as success rates, was collated. This data is here. Progress so far Leading off from the survey in April and the evaluation in May, several changes to dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) were proposed. Rather than using a wikitext template to bring disputes to DRN, editors used a new javascript form. This form was simpler to use, but also standardised the format of submissions and applied a word limit so that DRN volunteers could more easily review disputes. A template to summarise, and a robot to maintain the noticeboard, were also created. As a result of these changes, volunteers responded to disputes in a third of the time, and resolved them 60% faster when compared to May. Successful resolution of disputes increased by 17%. Submissions were 25% shorter by word count.(see Dispute Resolution Noticeboard Statistics - August compared to May) Outside of DRN other simplification has taken place. The Mediation Cabal was closed in August, and Wikiquette assistance was closed in September. Nevertheless, around fifteen different forums still exist for the resolution of Misplaced Pages disputes. Proposed changes Given the success of the past efforts at DR reform, the current RFC proposes we implement: 1) A submission gadget for every DR venue tailored to the unique needs of that forum. Similar to the one that was deployed, with great success, to the DRN. Structured based on the specific issues most commonly dealt with at each forum. Designed to improve the quality of requests for DR and the efficiency of DR at that forum. Applicable at following noticeboards: Dispute resolution, Neutrality, Reliable Sources, Original Research, Biographies of Living Persons, Notability noticeboard, Fringe theories, Conflict of Interest, Ethnic and cultural conflicts, External links, Third opinion, Mediation Committee, Arbitration Committee. Forms will merely fill out any existing templates (such as Arbcom's) and create a markup-free form in line with specific noticeboard practices otherwise. Example form fields: What pages are involved? What users are involved? What is the issue? What resolution is desired? 2) A universal dispute resolution wizard, accessible from Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. This wizard would ask a series of structured questions about the nature of the dispute. It would then determine to which dispute resolution venue a dispute should be sent. If the user agrees with the wizard's selection, s/he would then be asked a series of questions about the details of the dispute (for example, the usernames of the involved editors). The wizard would then submit a request for dispute resolution to the selected venue, in that venue's required format (using the logic of each venue's specialized form, as in proposal #1). The wizard would not suggest a venue which the user has already identified in answer to a question like "What other steps of dispute resolution have you tried?". Similar to the way the DRN request form operates, this would be enabled for all users. A user could still file a request for dispute resolution manually if they so desired. Coding such a wizard would be complex, but the DRN gadget would be used as an outline. Once the universal request form is ready (coded by those who helped create the DRN request form) the community will be asked to try out and give feedback on the wizard. The wizard's logic in deciding the scope and requirements of each venue would be open to change by the community at any time. 3) Additionally, we're seeking any ideas on how we can attract and retain more dispute resolution volunteers.

Please share your thoughts at the RfC.

--The Olive Branch 18:40, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Airport names

More discussion on airport names. I am contacting you, and all past participants in recent discussions on this issue, because there is now a new RFC.

WP:HYPHEN says that proper names get hyphens, like Jones-Smith (or, as the example says "John Lennard-Jones". Are airport names any different? If I take a bicycle trip from Paris to Orly and write an article about it, or someone else does, it would correctly be called Paris–Orly trip with an en dash and trip not capitalized. But if I create a bicycle and call it the Paris-Orly Flyer that becomes a proper name and is capitalized. Is not the same true for airport names? Please see the discussions at WP:MOS, Talk:Seattle–Tacoma International Airport#Requested move and the recently opened RfC at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Airports#New RfC. Apteva (talk) 21:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

That's misleading, Apteva. WP:HYPHEN says this:

"Hyphenation also occurs in bird names such as Great Black-backed Gull, and in proper names such as Great Black-backed Gull and Wilkes-Barre."

Some proper names "get hyphens", but that does not mean no proper name gets an en dash. "Are airport names any different?" Any different from what, exactly? From the default naming assumption that is mentioned at WP:DASH? That is the question facing the RFC to which you refer. An especially ill-posed one, in my opinion, with poor structure and unsupported preliminary assumptions.

PLEASE NOTE: discussions do not occur at places like ]. That is not a talkpage. Try this instead: WT:MOS. I see you making that mistake a lot.

Noetica 22:57, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Unsupported attribution

There were claims like "prominent" and "talented" in Richard_F._Lyon I went back to the reference and what I could verify is that he was a person in a list of attorneys. There was no secondary source validating the claim he was particularly talented. Unattributed reference removed following WP:weasel. This is not anything against anyone. It is to make it better in line with Wiki style of writing. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 04:24, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually the words in the paragraph cited were "talented" and "capable", but I agree we don't need to treat those as fact. Dicklyon (talk) 16:26, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Frederic Eugene Ives article graphics

Hello again,

During the past year or two I have sporadically done some work on the Frederic Eugene Ives article. Having finally initiated myself into the mysteries of uploading images, I just added an interesting "lost" picture of Ives and a presentation of a classic Kromogram (apparently Number 1 in the catalog in honor of its ample "wow" factor) which nicely demonstrates that good photographic color reproduction, including of vivid reds, was possible in the 1890s.

I see that you were the contributor of the color composite of the Tower of London Kromogram from A Half-Century of Color, an image that I know well: when I first encountered it in 1970, I was so juiced by the prospect of an authentic natural-color-and-3-D peek into 1898 that I spent the grocery money on a set of diazo films. My analog results were about the same as your digital, which is to say very disappointing. In addition to the problems inherent in reproducing a scene with subtle colors from a rough mid-century printed halftone of separation negatives, I suspect that uneven lighting and processing at the time that halftone was prepared may be contributing factors, along with silvering or other uneven deterioration of the source material. Last but perhaps not least, Ives' one-shot camera, which he always used for landscapes at that time, seems to me to be liable to ill effects from the use of separate diaphragms in each optical path to control the relative exposures, which could give rise to differing degrees of subtle vignetting, and perhaps also from angle-dependent reflection efficiencies and related polarization effects. The still lifes and most everything else, including the much later San Francisco views, were shot with a repeating back camera blissfully immune to those potential ills, leaving only camera shutter characteristics, harmfully edge-accelerated wet processing, an insufficiently distant printing light, and later image deterioration to account for any unevenness of color.

Now that a more representative and technologically better-sourced Kromogram has been installed, do you have any objections to the retirement of the misleadingly rough Tower of London images?

AVarchaeologist (talk) 02:30, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the vase of flowers is a much better representation of the kromogram. Go for it. Dicklyon (talk) 21:09, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Courtesy notification of discussion

Hi, Dicklyon, there is a discussion by User:‎Apteva/Delphi234 that involves you here. Regards, --Neotarf (talk) 12:17, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

ARB

My apology for dragging you into this, but the insistence on using an inappropriate section on the MOS talk page was in my opinion completely unexceptable. It was moved to my talk page where it would have stayed and that would have been the end of it had not another editor felt the need to duplicate it. Hence I am recommending a block on both editors for violation of Arbcom sanctions. The place to bring up disruptions is on a user talk page and ANI, not a talk page for a guideline, regardless of how serious. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation, and specifically:

"All parties reminded

1.2) All parties are reminded to avoid personalizing disputes concerning the Manual of Style, the article titles policy ('WP:TITLE'), and similar policy and guideline pages, and to work collegially towards a workable consensus. In particular, a rapid cycle of editing these pages to reflect one's viewpoint, then discussing the changes is disruptive and should be avoided. Instead, parties are encouraged to establish consensus on the talk page first, and then make the changes.

Passed 9 to 0, 22:47, 23 March 2012 (UTC)"

What would you propose as a neutral section heading that does not name a specific editor and is relevant to improving the MOS? If none, the section should be simply deleted. Apteva (talk) 01:13, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Let me point out that Apteva's talk page has a facsimile of your signature, however the edit history clearly indicates that you did not place it there. Please note that per WP:Signature forgery, impersonating another editor by using his or her username or signature is forbidden. --Neotarf (talk) 01:32, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Please read the following "(moved from WP:MOS talk page)" and check the history for that talk page, where User:Dicklyon did in fact "place it there". This is just moving discussion to where it properly belongs. I was under no obligation to do so. The post could be simply deleted as off topic. Apteva (talk) 03:35, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Neotarf, I realize that he copied my section to his talk page; I even replied to him there already. Apteva, the section is also relevant on WT:MOS where I first put it, which is why I restored it again there. Dicklyon (talk) 07:02, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

And interestingly one of the two signatures that was refracted was the one that was put there while the section was on my user page. Refracting even to "remove a signature" is not something that I would do. Apteva (talk) 14:43, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

As to its relevance on the MOS talk page, that is a stance that is difficult to support, which is why the thread was closed by an admin. Apteva (talk) 14:53, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#WP:MOS sanctions Apteva (talk) 04:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

At the above discussion the question was raised "I seek advice on alternative approaches". Well how about the user talk page? Was this an attempt to go to step 2 after that had been tried? Step 2 is ANI, or better not an article talk page or a guideline talk page. I moved your post to WP:ANI#Disruption versus personalization, and an admin questioned the necessity of making the complaint there as there was already an open AE discussion. "how is this not forum shopping" Apteva (talk) 13:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Comets

Any objections to moving all of the comet articles from endash to hyphen? Out of 40 books at Google books (using preview only) produces 36 using a hyphen and 4 an endash. 32 used Comet and 8 used comet. Apteva (talk) 04:51, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course I object, and I'm pretty sure you have not counted correctly in both cases. In any case, WP style is to use the en dash when connecting names of two people, and hyphen in some other situations; the punctuation tells the reader the meaning, and the goal should be to serve the reader, as many books and articles do, not to dumb down like the many ohters that one finds. Dicklyon (talk) 17:52, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Please feel free to present your own evidence. As with any scientist, no conclusion is drawn before experiments are performed to confirm theories. It is a theory that an endash is used and an equally valid theory that a hyphen is used, barring any other evidence, such as the actual rules of how comets are named: Whether any of the popular media or any books use the actual name is also important to answer. But no, I would say that is the opinion of a minority of WP editors that endash rules supercedes TITLE rules. But everyone is welcome to their opinion. I wanted to poll anyone who might likely object before re-opening the RM so that I could find out what the basis for their likely objection might be. But to say that it dumbs down the text to ignore actual naming conventions of the IAU and make up different names is odd. The funniest thing is that both of us have identical backgrounds and identical intelligence, and it would be nice to have the product of the two be something productive instead of opposing votes every time. In Mexican-American War I trusted the google OCR, but for the comet data I solely used page previews, and will do that for Mex as well. In some cases we ignore official information, because common usage differs. But to ignore official information and common usage makes no sense - to me. Apteva (talk) 20:36, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

There is plenty of common usage in the same style as that specified in WP:MOS. It's much easier to find examples in than in book search, since the snippets there are made from text in pdf and html files, rather than from OCR that does not distinguish en dash from hyphen. Dicklyon (talk) 21:36, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

No. There needs to be a majority. 2.8% is an extreme minority. Alternate sources are always used to corroborate conclusions, but books tend to reflect common usage better than scholarly works - did you catch my comment about scientists knowing nothing about punctuation? OCR? I already said I am no longer using the OCR. Apteva (talk) 21:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The MOS does not say that we follow the style of a majority of sources. It says we have a set of WP style preferences. Dicklyon (talk) 21:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Exactly, and preferences means - just that - multiple variations are available, and if there is no information to the contrary, the preferred style may be used, but does not need to be considered a "hard and fast rule". The information to the contrary, of course, is the policy at WP:TITLE, and other places, and policy always wins over guideline every time - or at least that is what is supposed to happen. There are more important things to work on than insisting that comets and airports be misspelled just because of a punctuation rule that does not apply. Apteva (talk) 22:21, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

How can you insist that a title is misspelled, or even misstyled, if it's in agreement with numerous reliable sources that have have a style like ours? Is it just because you're still counting OCR errors as hyphens and don't really care what's out there in good sources? Dicklyon (talk) 22:24, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Because when we choose article titles, and that is what we are talking about, we consider a variety of factors, but it always comes down to what is the most common title that a reader would expect. When someone looks up comet Hale-Bopp, they do not expect to find an endash, because that is not how it is commonly or correctly spelled. As to style, that would be the font, and browsers control the font, not WP. We often find multiple choices and believe me we spend countless hours choosing the best title given all the choices, and it is pretty annoying to have someone change a title that is correct just because they wanted to interpret the MOS in a particular way, and even though they had no clue what a comet should be titled they come along and move comet Hale-Bopp and several others to using an endash. As to "still counting OCR errors as hyphens and don't really care what's out there in good sources?" How could I be counting OCR errors? I am not even looking at the OCR results. I am only using the previews. And sure I will be happy to go on to check the scholar link results and any other sources that are available and reasonable to check. If someone told me to check the Archie comics I think I would ignore that suggestion. But have you read the link above about naming of comets, or read the summary at the MOS talk page? It says that hyphens and spaces are used. Period. It is very explicit, and that is the IAU, adopted in March 2003. Frankly the words dead horse come to mind. But basically I have a science background and am willing to go through whatever steps it takes to find the most appropriate answer, whatever that answer might be. Apteva (talk) 23:22, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I have such a background, too, but I don't consider typography to be a question that will be answered by science. If you don't understand that the question of when and whether to use an en dash is a style question, you should study the guides a bit more. Dicklyon (talk) 01:40, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

What is the quote I am looking for - something like if a little bit of knowledge is dangerous how much does it take to something. The more you know the less you know. Something like that. But WP is not a reliable source. I am not studying the WP guidelines to learn style and grammar, but only to edit them and find out what they say so that I can apply them. But actually I am studying a real style guide, New Hart's Rules. So far I have not found anything in it that would indicate that comets are spelled with anything other than what the IAU uses - spaces and hyphens.

I am curious about the quote at the top of this page "and should just leave it alone until I finish my book". Would being blocked help free up some of your time so that you can finish the book? Apteva (talk) 14:08, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit warring

Is this really necessary? Dicklyon (talk | contribs) (Undid revision 518132707 by Apteva (talk) don't edit, censor, or move the talk items of others) Neglecting of course that your edit edited, censored or moved to the talk page items of others. Apteva (talk) 21:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree that it should not have been necessary. Dicklyon (talk) 21:47, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Then why did you do it???????????????????????????????????? That of course is a rhetorical question. Inappropriate talk page comments are just as subject to deletion as is incorrect information in articles. But what we need is civility, not edit warring. Apteva (talk) 22:03, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

ANI

Your second inappropriate subject heading at WP:MOS talk page was moved to WP:ANI#Disruption versus personalization. Apteva (talk) 13:16, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

October 2012

Warning Your entry, copied below, from Misplaced Pages talk:MOS, is not appropriate.

"The relevance is in Apteva's continuing outrageous behavior here. When I sought input on how to deal with his disruption, he removed it, he hid it, he took me to Arbcom enforcement, he removed and then hid my notice of that, and then he sought to punish the admin who tried to stop him. It's all too much. He suggests we take him to RFC/U instead, but I don't have time for that. I'm on vacation -- in Hawaii -- had a great helicopter tour today. There, now that's something off-topic to chide me about. Dicklyon (talk) 05:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)"

No, it is never relevant to discuss a persons behavior on an article or guideline talk page. It is off topic and a disruption and it is to be removed or archived on sight. Period. And talking about your helicopter tour? How does that remotely have anything to do with the MOS? Are we supposed to include an example of a Hawaiian helicopter tour in the MOS? Please discuss the MOS and only the MOS on the MOS talk page. The place to put your complaint if you really can not think of any other is at the Village Pump or at the help desk WP:Help. But not on an article, guideline, or policy talk page. The biggest problem, though is calling my edits a disruption. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Apteva (talk) 15:17, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I think that if my discussion of your disruptive behavior were inappropriate, someone other than you would let me know. Dicklyon (talk) 17:18, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Like this? (copied from WP:MOS talk page)

I meant from someone neutral who knows what's going on, not someone who just dropped in to help you. Dicklyon (talk) 17:03, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)You mean someone put a criticism of Dicklyon's behavior on the MOS talkpage and not on a user page?!!1! Tsk, tsk. --Neotarf (talk) 20:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

You know better than that, Dick. This is not the venue to discuss behavioural issues, which Apteva's complaint against you is, nor to rally support from Apteva's detractors. Use his or your talk page, use the AE or ANI pages. If it has nothing to do with the improvement of the MOS (and it doesn't), don't bring it here. It doesn't concern anyone except the people involved. – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 21:57, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Please stop moving airports. The overwhelming information is that airports are spelled with a hyphen.

06:26, 18 October 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+14)‎ . . Dillant–Hopkins Airport ‎ (dash fixes) (top) 
06:24, 18 October 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+44)‎ . . N Talk:Dillant-Hopkins Airport ‎ (Dicklyon moved page Talk:Dillant-Hopkins Airport to Talk:Dillant–Hopkins Airport: two different people's names, so en dash) (top)
06:24, 18 October 2012 (diff | hist) . . (0)‎ . . m Talk:Dillant–Hopkins Airport ‎ (Dicklyon moved page Talk:Dillant-Hopkins Airport to Talk:Dillant–Hopkins Airport: two different people's names, so en dash) (top) 
06:24, 18 October 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+39)‎ . . N Dillant-Hopkins Airport ‎ (Dicklyon moved page Dillant-Hopkins Airport to Dillant–Hopkins Airport: two different people's names, so en dash) (top)
06:24, 18 October 2012 (diff | hist) . . (0)‎ . . m Dillant–Hopkins Airport ‎ (Dicklyon moved page Dillant-Hopkins Airport to Dillant–Hopkins Airport: two different people's names, so en dash)
10:01, 17 October 2012 (diff | hist) . . (-197)‎ . . Manchester–Boston Regional Airport ‎ (dash fixes and need a citation)
09:57, 17 October 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+55)‎ . . N Talk:Manchester-Boston Regional Airport ‎ (Dicklyon moved page Talk:Manchester-Boston Regional Airport to Talk:Manchester–Boston Regional Airport: style with en dash, like Frommer's Boston does, and per our MOS:DASH) (top)
09:56, 17 October 2012 (diff | hist) . . (0)‎ . . m Talk:Manchester–Boston Regional Airport ‎ (Dicklyon moved page Talk:Manchester-Boston Regional Airport to Talk:Manchester–Boston Regional Airport: style with en dash, like Frommer's Boston does, and per our MOS:DASH) (top) 
09:56, 17 October 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+50)‎ . . N Manchester-Boston Regional Airport ‎ (Dicklyon moved page Manchester-Boston Regional Airport to Manchester–Boston Regional Airport: style with en dash, like Frommer's Boston does, and per our MOS:DASH) (top)
09:56, 17 October 2012 (diff | hist) . . (0)‎ . . m Manchester–Boston Regional Airport ‎ (Dicklyon moved page Manchester-Boston Regional Airport to Manchester–Boston Regional Airport: style with en dash, like Frommer's Boston does, and per our MOS:DASH) 

--Apteva (talk) 15:47, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "overwhelming information" you mean. These are all supported by our MOS and appear that way in some reliable sources. These are all pairs of parallel names, which are normally connected by an en dash in styles such as ours. The fact that they are airports is of no particular significance, as far as I can tell. Dicklyon (talk) 17:18, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

No they are not supported by the MOS and "in some reliable sources" is exactly what I was saying about making a WP:Point - selectively showing a few examples and not even mentioning that oh by the way most of the ones I found did use a hyphen. You are right airports have no particular significance - find an airport that in a majority of books the name uses an endash and I doubt that anyone would disagree with using an endash. But to use an endash because Dillant–Hopkins sounds like the sort of thing that would use an endash is not sufficient. Check the FAA, see what they use. Apteva (talk) 18:27, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Anything having to do with hyphens is obviously controversial and you know it. Use RM. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:03, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Please stop moving airports. What's up with the sudden interest in moving airport names that include hyphens? There are plenty of real improvements needed, and they really do not involve making controversiall changes without discussion. Apteva (talk) 23:23, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

The sudden interest was sparked by your list. What I found was quite a range of different problems. Like on the one you just complained about, I could find no evidence that this airport is called Ephraim-Fish Creek Airport, so I moved it to Ephraim–Gilbraltar Airport, respecting both its common and official name and our MOS. Where's your beef with that? Dicklyon (talk) 01:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I am not particularly familiar with that airport, but this website uses that name. Moving it to Ephraim-Gibraltar Airport with a hyphen is fine, but not with an endash. The MOS is not used to determine article names. The MOS is used for article layout and presentation, and does not affect content. Changing the name of an article affects content. Apteva (talk) 04:09, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

The difference between Ephraim-Gibraltar and Ephraim–Gibraltar is not content or spelling, but styling; some common styles don't distinguish hyphen from en dash, and represent the latter type of relationship by the former; but in WP we distinguish. For the connection of the two place names, whether Fish Creek and Ephraim or Gibraltar and Ephraim, the en dash is best, per MOS:DASH. I thought you had learned that, in your attempts in the last weeks to prove the opposite. Dicklyon (talk) 04:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

There is no point in going back and forth on this. If necessary, an RfC or mediation might help. Clearly 2% of books are published with an endash. Clearly 98% of books published use a hyphen. Which should WP follow? One that is used 2% of the time, or one that is used 98% of the time? That, though, is clearly a rhetorical question. Apteva (talk) 04:31, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

The question is not merely rhetorical, and has been answered in the MOS dash deliberations of 2011. But in cases where I've seen you try to count, you seemed to not have a realistic methodology for identifying en dashes, so your 2% is not a good strawman anyway. Dicklyon (talk) 04:34, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

It takes a great deal of time to go through a hundred books and check to see which is used. It would be nice if a couple of editors had the time to re-do the data on the MOS talk page in the hyphen section and see what they come up with. I was as careful as I could - in the case of Mexican American War I relied on google OCR, and will eventually redo it by looking at the page views. Will it change a few percentage points one way or the other? Does it matter? Apteva (talk) 05:45, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

How many times have you been told that Google's book OCR doesn't see en dashes? If you found any that way, it was books that didn't come in by OCR. Dicklyon (talk) 06:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Inappropriate edit summary. Is this really appropriate, either as an action or as an edit summary? " 01:28, 22 October 2012‎ Dicklyon (talk | contribs)‎ . . (75 bytes) (+36)‎ . . (stop the anti-MOS anti-dash campaign of Apteva)"

First, I am not anti-MOS, and I am not anti-dash. I want the MOS to quit being silly, and I want dashes to be used where dashes are used and hyphens to be used where hyphens are used. Second, that is in article space, and if you want to deal with a specific user the place to do that is at their user page, not in article space. No one cares. Why bring it up? Should every edit summary say something personal about the editor who last edited the article, or should the edit summary explain why the edit was done? And if it was done "to stop ... Apteva", that is not an appropriate goal. All editors are welcome to participate in WP, as long as they edit in an appropriate manner, and making remarks about another editor in an edit summary is just not appropriate. Apteva (talk) 14:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Courtesy notification of discussion

Your name has been mentioned in a discussion here. Regards, --Neotarf (talk) 22:04, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Málaga Airport

Hello Dicklyon. The official name is Málaga-Costa del Sol Airport, in Spanish: Aeropuerto de Málaga-Costa del Sol. --Bashevis6920 (talk) 22:36, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Ref? When I searched books to see what it's called, I didn't see that. And a hyphen there makes no sense in WP style; it would need to be an en dash if we translated it properly to English in our style, wouldn't it? The official name appears to be Pablo Ruiz Picasso Airport, but we usually go by the common name, and Malaga Airport appears to be most common in sources. Dicklyon (talk) 04:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Ref: AENA Aena is the owner of the Airport. Ref in Spanish

Pablo Ruiz Picasso is the name of Terminal Two (T2). Regards.--Bashevis6920 (talk) 15:20, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I think AENA is the operator, not the owner; and they style it both with hyphen and with space on the page you linked. Anyway, no travel guide calls it that. They all just say Malaga Airport. See book search. Dicklyon (talk) 18:44, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I am malagueño (from Málaga), I know what i'm talking about. AENA is the Spanish Company that administers the airports, wich are its property.

If you prefer to keep that name "Malaga Airport", ok, but the official name is "Malaga-Costa del Sol Airport. Sorry my poor english. Regards.--Bashevis6920 (talk) 18:57, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I have opened an RM, Requested Move, at Talk:Málaga Airport, which will allow anyone interested to discuss the proposed move. Apteva (talk) 02:38, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

What I was objecting to is that right after being warned by two editors not to move airports without discussion this one was moved and immediately contested. All I was doing is allowing for discussion. Apteva (talk) 16:42, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

That was just B2C's "Anything having to do with hyphens is obviously controversial and you know it", which is ridiculous, and your equally ridiculous theory of airport names being somehow special with respect to the MOS. I figured that after your various RMs and other disruptions went down in flames, you'd be over that. Did I guess wrong? Dicklyon (talk) 20:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

heads-up

Just a heads-up: one of your topics you were passionate about before, is being discussed again. You may consider weighing in again if you care. cherkash (talk) 02:05, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Omitting the s is much more common and acceptable on those multi-syllable words, so it really is just a question of choosing a style and sticking with it. No need for another voice there saying so, I think. Dicklyon (talk) 02:07, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

MOS

I probably should not be so critical. I know that everyone is doing the best they can, but having a dozen examples, none of which have a space, and saying "The en dash in all of the compounds above is unspaced" seems a lot like saying "This sentence has five words." Apteva (talk) 22:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

It could have been done more prescriptively, as "Do not space the en dash in compounds such as those above." We thought it was clear, but evidently we were wrong. The spacing around en dashes was the one remaining area of argument when we were done, since kwamikagami and Noetica and some others prefer spaces in some cases (like when one of the parts has a space), while others, esp. Jeff Conrad, wanted no spaces, not even in full date ranges. Approximately a Brit/Amer style thing, but not quite. At some point we agreed to disagree and this is the compromise where we left it; PMAnderson, famous anti-MOS anti-en-dash crusader that you remind me of, tried to use the relative shortage of agreement on this point as a weapon to torpedo the whole deal, but in the end got himself banned by his disruption and socking. A sordid mess, really; sorry you chose to step in it. I'm just interested in moving articles toward consistency, including ones like this that were done before this change in MOS. Dicklyon (talk) 23:24, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

See I disagree that WP needs to obtain some sort of military precision. I would be happy to just see people use periods at the end of sentences and capitalize proper nouns. What I would like the MOS to do is show us what some of us have been doing so that when we add new articles they will sort of look like the ones that already exist, and I would like to see the MOS emphasize some of the variations that exist, like spaced endash, that sort of thing, instead of spending thousands of editor-hours deciding which to use - no matter which is decided it is going to annoy the editors who made a different choice when someone wanders by and changes them - and what happens if years later a different choice is made? Change them all back again? Consistency within an article is far more jarring than between Lady Gaga and Saddam Hussein, articles that almost no one is going to be reading the same day. I also noticed someone was talking about people reading articles. That very rarely happens. The attention span on the web is about 14 seconds, so most people are going to look up an article, scan it for something, and be gone in less than that time. Even WP editors normally only read non-stub articles when they are doing a GA or FA review, or checking them, or copy-editing them. Apteva (talk) 03:14, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, few editors get annoyed when editors change toward conformance with MOS. Notice that Kwami was in favor of fixing the bridge, even though it's not how he would do it, as he respects the value of working toward consistent style. A few editors (like you) occasionally pop up to object to such normal working. Dicklyon (talk) 03:17, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

It would be difficult if not impossible to take a poll on that. I am only speaking from experience - having someone come along and change punctuation on an article that I had worked on, and would rather have had it left the way it was. But "a few editors" is all we have. There are a thousand times as many readers as editors. For the vast majority clicking edit is akin to pulling a fire alarm box. It just is not done. And when one does, and a PhD in something corrects an article in which they are an expert, and it gets reverted, with a warning on their IP talk page no less, that just reinforces the idea that WP is not to be edited, but ignored as the work of 5th graders and a few college students. Ask any 5th grader if they can use WP as a reference in a paper they are writing. Universally I suspect the answer will be a resounding no. That is why we developed WP Schools on a CD, but how many even know about it? Apteva (talk) 15:27, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Grilled cheese (disambiguation)

• Please put in Talk:Grilled cheese (disambiguation)#Move? a link to the discussion of the dispute mentioned there. Thanks. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:24, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

  Done; I linked the history with edit summaries, since there's no actual discussion. Dicklyon (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Transistors

Hi Dicklyon,
Thanks for providing that ref re mesa transistors. Seems that transistors are attracting a fair bit of vandalism, some of which has gone unnoticed like that section of "History of the transistor" I restored, missing for over 2½ years!
You might like to take a look at another edit to "History of the transistor" here, apparently correct, but how relevant is it?
I have also left a sourcing comment /query at Talk:History of the transistor#The "French" Transistor source. Regards, 220 of 05:09, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

That whole set of paragraphs is unreferenced essay. Feel free to replace it something shorter backed up by sources. Dicklyon (talk) 05:12, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

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Scarlet

NOVEMBER 2012 Hi Dickolyn, you wouldn't have heard of the book Scarlet as it has not yet been published but my girlfriend has recently finished writing it and has sent it in to the publishers. I can not use her name because that is confidential for now. So thanks all the same, but my edit was constructive. Yours Sincerley, lv123jv456. Go to My Talk page to reply. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lv123jv456 (talk • contribs) 08:58, 2 November 2012 (UTC) Hi Dickolyn, me again. Sorry that I have not added a reliable source for a note on the Scarlet page. I haven't because their isn't one yet. As i've told you before, my girlfriend has sent a book called Scarlet into a publishing company but they have not replied yet. Thankyou. If you want to talk go to User talk:lv123jv456 —Preceding undated comment added 22:06, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I understand there's no source. That's why you can't add the info to wikipedia yet. Dicklyon (talk) 00:33, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay thanks, I understand now. I'll make a page about the book if it's published. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lv123jv456 (talk • contribs) 08:56, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Careful With That Axe, Eugene

I have to say you’ve got me thinking about this.
I’d assumed the pronunciation was "Yoozhaynee", ((/ˈjuːʒəni/) which is tolerably close to the IPA for the empress (French pronunciation: , "Uhzhaynee"), though this makes it "YooJaynee". Still, both of them preserve the e-acute sounding.
But as I was trawling through our articles I came across this lady, who, despite being French Canadian, is nicknamed “Genie”. So that raises the question, is the name pronounced "YooJeenee" in America? Just idle curiosity on my part...Moonraker12 (talk) 12:22, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

(PS: I've just realized, I've referred to E Bouchard as a lady, and E York as a girl, despite the latter being 4 years older; perceptions af adulthood? Or that I can remember when she was a baby? Oh dear...Moonraker12 (talk) 12:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC))

This podcast has one with the U-Genie pronunciation. I was thinking that the European pronunciation would treat the final "ie" like "ia" in English, like You-gainia. But I'm no expert on such. Dicklyon (talk) 21:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks (and sorry for the belated reply) And yes, I think it is YouGainia (with a hard G ) in some countries. Funnily enough, it turns out we have articles on the names Eugénie and Eugenia; also Eugene, Yevgeny, Eugenio ... only on Wikipaedia, hey? Moonraker12 (talk) 12:29, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

W.P. Bailey

Hi, isn't there a MOS guideline somewhere about spacing initials in personal names? Thanks In ictu oculi (talk) 06:02, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if there's a specific guideline, but as far as I know they're always spaced. Dicklyon (talk) 17:44, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Do we then, unstated, and with no guideline, follow Prentice Hall handbook for writers Page 395 Melinda G. Kramer, Glenn H. Leggett, Carl David Mead - 1995 "Use periods with initials of names and abbreviations ending with lower-case letters." <bre>

The Manual of Scientific Style Page 210 Harold Rabinowitz, Suzanne Vogel - 2009 "Initials of names should be capitalized and followed by a period and a space. Mr. H. L. Mencken" ? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:43, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Your comments to Kauffner

Hi, Dicklyon, and thanks for coming up with a good solid neutral wording for the USPLACE RfC. But I wonder if you might want to reconsider your note to Kauffner on his/her talk page. Your revision of the wording is likely to stand, but getting confrontational with the original poster is not likely to be constructive IMO. Just saying. --MelanieN (talk) 18:57, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

BTW do you want to "sign" your revised version in small type, as others have done when they made a change in the wording? --MelanieN (talk) 19:16, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

hyphens in airport names

Please note that hypens in the names of airports (e.g. London-Heathrow, not London Heathrow) are not "spurious" but mandatory for use in the destination charts as per article guidelines (so they are better readable) and widely used in EVERY airport article. Please stop removing them as this destroys the layout and usability of the charts and consult with our members of the airport and airliner corner if in doubt. Best regards. --217.94.100.199 (talk) 21:57, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I welcome the input, and have actually been surprised at the so far total lack of reaction to my changes. But I would like more: please give me a link to the "articles guidelines" that you refer to, and also to the "airport and airliner corner", which I haven't found by a search. Dicklyon (talk) 04:14, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I have found "Differentiate between multiple airports in one city using "-" (eg "London-Heathrow", not "London Heathrow")." at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Airports/page content. Interesting. I'd like to know the history of this decision... Dicklyon (talk) 04:32, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Anyone who has been in the cockpit of an airplane can answer that question. Apteva (talk) 07:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

FYI, I could have opened an RfC, which would have taken 30 days to decide, instead of 7. One of the problems with discussing this issue is that the same MOS cops show up and there is never any real discussion of the issues. Basically there is only one thing that needs to be fixed, as I see it - there are no known examples of an endash or emdash or minus sign appearing in a proper name - only hyphens. Until that error is fixed, WP has a serious problem. Apteva (talk) 07:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement

There is new thread on arbitration enforcement forum that might be interesting to you - http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#DIREKTOR Nemambrata (talk) 13:45, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

USPLACE discussion

Thanks for your wise advice. Point taken. --MelanieN (talk) 16:06, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Please comment. FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:03, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Formal mediation has been requested

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November 2012

Please. No matter how "disruptive you or anyone thinks making a technical request is, unless the request is blatant vandalism, it gets moved to the disputed section, not deleted. Thanks. The move in question is obviously merely a technical request. If you wish to dispute it, move it to the contested section, but deleting it is simply not appropriate. Apteva (talk) 02:12, 15 November 2012 (UTC)