Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:50, 15 November 2012

• WT:FAC

Archives

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (April Fools 2005) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 (2007) 22 23 24 25 26 (2008) 27 28 29 30 31 (Short FAs) 32 (Short FAs cont) 33 34 (Context and notability) 35 (2009) 36 (new FAC/FAR delegates) 37 38 39 (alt text) 40 41 42 (2010) 43 (RFC) 44 45 46 47 48 (Plagiarism, new FAC delegate) 49 (2011) 50 51 52 53 54 (2012) 55 (RFC) 56 57 58 Archives by topic: Alt text, Citation templates (load times)

This page has archives. Sections older than 21 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Spot checks for The Way I See It (album)

Would anyone be interested in doing spotchecks for sources and paraphrasing at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/The Way I See It (album)/archive1? Dan56 (talk) 20:47, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Subpages

Yeepsi has created numerous Talk Pages, with project banners, for, among other things, archived FACs. He assumes "they would fall under a WikiProject's banner". I can't see the point, am I missing something? Graham Colm (talk) 13:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a genuine mistake. I have deleted them. Graham Colm (talk) 14:44, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Mitt Romney

The Romney FAC is sitting down at the bottom of FAC with seven supports, but is starting to attract some critical comment late in the piece. My reading (and I've commented at the FAC) is that these recent comments seem not to be particularly actionable, and the longer it sits there, the more this may happen. I'm wondering if there's a delegate around who might indicate if there are any particular issues they're considering before resolving this one, as several editors appear more than willing to pitch in if they can work out what needs to happen. I realise Sandy may be a factor in all this :-) hamiltonstone (talk) 22:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I count ten supports now, and three opposes. Supports are from GabeMC, Mark Arsten, Moi, Coemgenus, TRLIJC19, TBrandley, HamiltonStone, JJ98, Johnbod, and WTR (incommunicado nominator stuck in hurricaned New Jersey). Opposes are from Nergaal, 74.115.210.45, and Kolob1x2. Hi Sandy.  :-)Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:30, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I also thought maybe some non-USA eyes might be useful, so I've pinged three experienced non-USA FAC reviewers to see if they're interested in taking a look: Casliber (Australia), Sasata (Canada) and BrianBoulton (UK). Cheers, hamiltonstone (talk) 03:04, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Casliber and I have had horrendous interactions in the past, but perhaps that's not relevant. An editor named BobRosenkrantz has just added an oppose, to which I've responded.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:08, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Audit of "old" FAs

I've been concerned recently about the quality of "old" (2008 and older) FAs that have yet to appear on Main Page, and whether they're suitable for appearing there or not. You can see/discuss the results of an audit I undertook at Wikipedia_talk:Today's_featured_article/requests#Audit_of_old_FAs_-_report. Of 26 non-hurricane articles, just 7 were suitable for Main Page in my opinion. Apologies for cross-posting, but please discuss there. --Dweller (talk) 14:02, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Article "ICarly" Featured Article (FA) nomination

I think that the article named "ICarly" must be a FA (Featured Article) because it has:

• Many details on its content and
• It doesn't violate any Copyright. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ICarlytranslator (talk • contribs) 09:51, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

You should read the WP:Featured article criteria which are rather broader than you seem to think. The article is decent enough, currently classed "C", but not near featured quality at present. Needs work, peer review and maybe GA review before any plausible nomination here. Brianboulton (talk) 20:17, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Come talk to me when you are ready for a peer review. I can't say the program is to my taste, but I have watched a few episodes when despite hundreds of channels, there was nothing on...--Wehwalt (talk) 13:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

RFC - Proposal to relax the "one article at a time" rule

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: Misplaced Pages proposals When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Currently, an editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time. The rate of Featured Article Candidates being promoted has been falling for some time, and is now about half what it was back in 2008. In 2012, between 20 and 40 articles were promoted per month. There are various reasons for this; I am not suggesting that the one-at-a-time rule is the sole or even one of the more important ones. As a result, though, the queue is shorter, and currently, the oldest article is just over a month old, nominated on 3 October. So it takes about a month for an article to move through FAC. However, the number of articles waiting for review is very much larger, because articles are being held back under one-article-at-a-time. Given that FAC has spare capacity, I am proposing that an editor be allowed to nominate two articles at a time. This would not flood FAC with articles, but would reduce the backlog, reduce the time for an article to be brought to FAC, and improve overall article quality. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:33, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support we can make a test drive. My motto is: more nominations = more reviewers. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 19:42, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
• I have a couple questions about this. How would it mesh with the two weeks between nominations rule, and would simply removing that rule be a good alternative to this idea? —Torchiest _edits 19:44, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
  • I was not proposing to change that rule, so the effect would be that an editor could not submit another nomination for two weeks. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:10, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't know where this backlog is, and I don't see how this change could improve article quality. WRT the two-week rule, this is for archived FACs and is needed to prevent nominators immediately re-nominating articles that require more preparation. Also, I am not sure we have any spare capacity; the number of established reviewers has declined and more often than not, I end up having to do the spotchecks. Nominators can already ask the delegates for the one at at time rule to be relaxed. Graham Colm (talk) 19:52, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

• 1. The backlog consists of articles that are ready for nomination, but unable to be nominated. I currently have 18 of these.
  2. The idea is that FAC review itself improves the quality of articles; many projects measure the quality of their articles by numbers of featured articles.
  3. Nominators can already ask the delegates to ignore one-at-a-time (and the two-week-wait), but grounds for granting exemptions are uncertain. After we started for asking for too many exemptions, the Military History Project editors agreed not to seek exemptions. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:10, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Still thinking this one over, but I think the co-nominator exemption would have to be killed. --Rschen7754 20:06, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

• The co-nominator exception is an anomaly. My understanding is that it was to promote collaborative editing. It is true that you can get a minion to co-nom in order to do an end-run around the one-at-a-time rule. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:10, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

• Comments: Just a couple of observations: "is now about half what it was back in 2008". I think most people agree that standards are now rather higher than they were in 2008 (in a good way) which might explain this; is a lesser rate necessarily a bad thing? As GrahamColm says, I cannot see "a number of articles waiting for review", unless this means at PR. But not all those articles are aimed at FAC. Also, I tend to agree that more reviewers, rather than more nominations, is probably the answer to any question which arises. And finally, why was this one article per person limit created in the first place? If we knew the reasons for the limit, it may clear up whether it was still required. A quick trawl of the archives of this page threw up various issues on this page, this section and this section. However, these are fairly random and there are probably more relevant examples. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:34, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

  I did some digging on this. That rule has been in place almost from the very beginning. The instructions were moved to a template in July 2004. A few weeks later, there was a major rewrite of the rules. These were based on some discussion here and detailed here. It looks like originally there were just too many nominations coming in. —Torchiest _edits 20:55, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

(EC) I can't speak for Ian, but let me make it clear that I will not object to requests from nominators, who have an established record of engaging in our FAC process and who respond to reviewers' comments quickly, to relax this rule. I haven't the time to look back over the years to find the discussion that gave rise to this rule, but I recall it was last discussed around the 2007-8, when there were around 100 nominations and the delegate found it difficult to cope. Given the shortage of established reviewers, I try to keep the list a manageable length, which helps to focus the resources we have. (I don't like to see it go over 50 noms). Graham Colm (talk) 21:09, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Hawkeye's current FAC is 25 days old and has received two favourable reviews, but no further comments in the past 19 days, so I can understand the frustration. The problem is clearly a lack of reviewers, not the rule, which can be relaxed. It would ease the problem if nominators reviewed other FACs (I know some of you already do this). Graham Colm (talk) 21:33, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Agreed - that is why there is no "spare capacity". In terms of reviewers we are surely worse off than in 2008. Johnbod (talk) 22:23, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Update: User: Crisco 1492 gave it another review yesterday. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:57, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Comment: when I first read the one nomination rule, I understood that the idea was to guarantee that the nominator may commit himself to the nomination and any possible request that may happen in it; if someone opened 25 FACs at a time the most probable thing is that they may be drive-by nominations, that the nominator may be unlikely to follow. This scenario would give too many problems, and may be better to be prevented. On the other hand, an article that fits the featured criteria but does not have the golden star is not really a "problem", as it will have it in its due time. I would propose to use a similar system than with the immediate renominations of FACS with no activity: let a delegate decide it. If there are legitimate cases of several articles awaiting nomination, then the best way to manage them and prevent the possible misuse of multiple nominations at the same time is to let someone in which we can trust to set the cases apart. Cambalachero (talk) 19:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

• We have to face the fact that they won't be done in their due time. The 18 articles that I have waiting for FAC would take over two years to process, so one written tomorrow will not come before FAC until 2015. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:47, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Where are the reviewers for these extra articles supposed to come from? There are currently 35 nominations on the list. One is 20 days old and has had only an image review. Another is 16 days old and has had only source spotchecks. Of the 12 articles over 15 days old, only two have more than one support. If we can't find the people to review the 35 articles currently in the queue, where are we going to find the people to review another even 15 that get nominated? The solution is to move articles through the process more quickly (by getting more reviewers active), not to increase the queue size, which would simply slow the process down. Hawkeye, perhaps I'm reading your words incorrectly, but you seem completely focused only on getting the gold star on more of your articles, and don't seem to be thinking at all about the added strain placed on an already overworked volunteer force. Dana boomer (talk) 21:07, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
    • I appreciate your concern. But what I am seeing is not a single group of editors reviewing article after article, but editors picking and choosing articles and reviewing them. It also seems that a newly-listed article is as likely to get a review as one that has been there for weeks. So what I am in effect suggesting is placing more articles in the shop window. 03:56, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Comment: I understand where Hawkeye is coming from, I've been in the same position myself -- to a lesser extent -- of having a number of FAC-ready noms queued up. Part of it stems from being MilHist editors, where we have a well-established A-Class Review system, and articles that pass A-Class are generally assumed to be FAC-ready. At MilHist we put no limit on the number of ACRs one can initiate (though I don't think I've seen more than 5 from any one nominator at a time) so it's no surprise Haswkeye has many lined up for FAC. I once put 3 RAAF chiefs of staff up for ACR simultaneously, which I justified because they all had a similar military college background, and served in the top air force job almost one after the other. More importantly, my sources were almost identical in each case and I'd improved the articles more-or-less simultaneously, so it seemed to make sense to nominate them simultaneously. When it came to FAC, however, I nominated one at a time as usual. It's true that articles that have passed a project ACR may be (legitimately) rubber-stamped at FAC by their A-Class reviewers, but this isn't always the case, and as a FAC delegate I like to see some content reviewing from outside the nominator's Wikiproject before I promote, as well as dedicated image and source reviews. So even in a best-case scenario, I'd expect a blanket easing of the one-nom rule to put a greater strain on the pool of regular FAC reviewers. That said, I don't think I've refused a reasonable request for an additional nom, e.g. where there's co-noms involved, or when the nominator's current 'solo' FAC seems to be nearing consensus. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:55, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious that the throughput at ACR is faster than at FAC. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:56, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

• WP:USRD is definitely in the same boat as well. --Rschen7754 23:01, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support. - If a nominator has enough time and energy to deal with multiple FAC noms at once, then why would we arbitrarily slow them down? ~ GabeMc 23:04, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Two at a time is not going to swamp the process. Let's do it! Binksternet (talk) 04:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

• Comment After reading Ian and Graham's thoughtful posts, I'd suggest that the best approach would be to formalise the (as far as I'm aware) unwritten convention that editors with a good track record at FAC can have two noms open at the same time as long as the first nomination is progressing satisfactorily. Nick-D (talk) 09:32, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: In general I concur with the previous comment. In Good Queen Sandy's golden days this practice was followed, and worked well enough. I don't follow the statement made earlier in the thread, that "more nominations = more reviewers"; why should it? And I am a little surprised, not to mention overawed, that an editor, even one as industrious as Hawkeye, can have a private backlog of eighteen articles all ready and waiting for FAC. That's at least two years' work for me. Brianboulton (talk) 00:00, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
  • • No, no, no ... you meant Good Witch, oh Brainiac. GrahamColm and IanRose have it right-- the problem is and has always been avoiding a flood of ill-prepared articles from nominators who repeatedly put up ill-prepared articles and rarely "give back" in terms of reviews-- we don't need to formalize the policy of letting experienced nominators who give back and participate put up more than one at a time, because we already have the means for that to happen, and delegates who are amenable. Delegates can and do know who contributes to and helps with the backlog-- and they can and do give permission for more than one nom at times when the backlog is manageable and reviewers are able to pitch in. I do recognize there is often a MilHist backlog, but that occurs because some of the MilHist editors don't pitch in and help eliminate the backlog by reviewing other types of articles. The best thing the MilHist editors can do to solve their problem is to review more articles put up by others-- the less backlog, the better opportunity for delegates to allow more multiple noms. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:50, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• Right, but if we were to formalize it, as Nick suggests, then we would have to formalize what a "good track record" is, and what "progressing satisfactorily" is. I don't see the problem with leaving the situation as is - continuing it as an unwritten rule, allowing the delegates to make the call, and encouraging editors to use this option if they are in a position to do so. The current wording actually technically allows for an editor to have three nominations open at any one time (one normal one, one by special dispensation and one with a collaborator), although I can't remember a situation in which anyone took advantage of this. Dana boomer (talk) 20:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

• That's a very good point, but I'm not sure that a strict definition is needed - we could note that this is at the discretion of the delegates. My basic idea is to write up the procedure which is currently in place in order to advertise it and establish it more securely (at present Ian and Graham are at risk of not having a procedure to reference if/when editors complain about their requests for multiple nominations being knocked back while other editors get their requests approved). That said, I certainly don't want to complicate or change the current system for lodging multiple nominations as it's working rather well. Nick-D (talk) 09:16, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support - Anyone who nominates two at once will almost certainly be someone that has ample time to manage both articles. In the rare situation that a nominator gets in over their head, they can retract one of the nominations. Limiting it to two (rather than unlimited) is a good middle ground. --Noleander (talk) 21:12, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per delegates. --Rschen7754 21:14, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
• Support I expect people would have common sense and it is hard enough getting reviewers to there's a practical limit. I am very impressed at Hawkeye's backlog, even in my more industrious days I never had more than four.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:45, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Natchez Massacre

Why was my nomination archived? An editor had just written some comments that I was going to address to maybe get a second voice of support. I don't think this is fair. Can someone keep the nomination open? Jsayre64 (talk) 22:09, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

The latest review was added three days ago. I archived the nomination because after one month and six days at FAC, there was no clear consensus that the FA criteria have been fulfilled. The one anonymous (IP) supporting comment was too short and superficial to be helpful. You can re-nominate the article after 14 days and I hope you attract more reviews the next time. In the meantime, I suggest you address the comments from Giants2008. Graham Colm (talk) 22:35, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Could I please have a third-party opinion? It seems like when not only comments were just added but earlier today a different editor posted his point of view and asked a question, it's discourteous and unreasonable to abruptly archive the FAC. Jsayre64 (talk) 04:56, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry; I know it is frustrating when a FAC is archived. It has been our experience that once a FAC has been kept open for a very long time without attracting significant ongoing attention, it sometimes falls off the reviewers' radar; eventually FACs in this situation are archived without prejudice. You can renominate the article after addressing any outstanding issues brought up in the first FAC. It might be helpful, though, to submit it for a WP:MILHIST A-class review first. MILHIST's A-class process is quite active and geared toward getting articles FA-ready, and would help the article gain attention, which usually helps build momentum at FAC.

When you renominate the article at FAC, you can ask the reviewers from the first FAC, as well as any A-class reviewers, to evaluate the article in the new FAC. Regardless of whether you chose to put the article through MILHIST's A-class review, you can also post an announcement of the FAC on the MILHIST talk page, which should draw more reviewers. If you ping me on my talk page, I would be happy to review the article at that time as well. Best of luck. Maralia (talk) 07:04, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

FA Director?

Surprisingly, the Wikipediocracy people have raised a good point. Raul hasn't edited Misplaced Pages since August 25th. Isn't it about time to consider the position of FA Director to have been left derelict and a new one should be appointed? One of the delegates will likely be the top candidate, but I think the position needs to be filled if Raul is going to continue to be absent. I mean, we can't just have an absent Director. What if a situation arises that is bigger than the delegates can handle?

So, should there be a wiki-wide RfC vote for a new Director, with people putting themselves forward as candidates or what? Silverseren 20:15, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a position on this, I just want to point out that Raul wasn't involved with FLC, and FLC gets along just fine; Giants2008 and The Rambling Man are defined to be directors (as is Dabomb, but checking quickly, he seems to be devoting himself to TFA). - Dank (push to talk) 20:25, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Though they also have a delegate, NapHit. --Rschen7754 20:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

True. Well, I'll support whatever Ian and Graham want. - Dank (push to talk) 20:32, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

It's not so much Raul himself as it is having someone officially being in charge so they can make the necessary decisions. FLC does have directors who are in charge, so it works. Silverseren 20:33, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone actually asked Raul (through the talk page and e-mail functions) if he is still available to make any tough calls needed? Even when inactive in the past, he has always (as far as I know) responded to e-mails from delegates asking him to look in on various situations. There was a large RfC earlier this year that ended with significant support for Raul maintaining his current position, despite previous periods of inactivity. And, honestly, I don't think it would be beneficial for the FA community to go through (for a second time) the bickering, infighting and political intrigues that accompanied that RfC, especially if Raul is just busy in RL and is still available to make any necessary tough decisions. Dana boomer (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I have emailed him with no response, and I know Casliber has too. --Rschen7754 21:10, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Here's my quick take. Step 1: confirm that Raul's been asked about his activity and intentions. Step 2: if he's unwilling or unable to continue, we'd have to have a RfC to determine how to elect/select the replacement. (My suggestion would be to open nominations for a week, and then run voting on the candidates for another week.) Step 3: follow the process selected in Step 2. We're at Step 1 folks, not Step 2. Imzadi 1979 → 21:14, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

My only worry with going through this again is that we need to seriously consider keep this discussion much calmer than the last one. The last thing we want to do is to have to shut down this page for 24 hours, again. Mitch32 21:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Certainly I'd like to hear from Raul, but Misplaced Pages is a dedication-ocracy, so with regard to FAC, I'm more interested in hearing from the people doing the work, starting with Ian and Graham; their opinions count more, in my view. - Dank (push to talk) 21:36, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

It's all very nice and nostalgic to allow Raul to continue be the primary vessel for selection of the primary article featured on one of the most heavily visited webpages in the world every day, but clearly he's not actually fulfilling this (or any other Misplaced Pages) duty any more (last useful TFA edit was three months ago). Moreover, poor old Dabomb87 has held the fort but himself finds it difficult to dedicate the required time to ensuring the articles selected are done so in time, and are up to scratch. Things need to change here, both "officially" and practically. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm in favor of giving him the chance to respond before we move to another stage of the discussion. If we don't hear back after a reasonable time period, then we can move on to the next step. I think a week is generous to give him a chance to reply to this discussion. Given the acrimony of the RfC less than a year ago, I don't want it to look like we're rushing to remove him after the community gave him so much support last time. Imzadi 1979 → 22:33, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

As for Featured Article Director, the "appointment" has been contentious from its very beginnings - see Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates/archive5#24_hours_without_support, where a reference is made to a template talk page that has since been moved, and in whose history I was not able to find the discussion alluded to. As usual, the request for due process was handwaved away, and that's how controversy has followed Raul in what, to the best of my ability to research this, is essentially a self-appointment. Samsara (FA • FP) 23:38, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

WP:TFL is currently just dandy (as is WP:FLC), allocating weekly main page lists two or three weeks in advance because we have active directors (Giants2008, me, Dabomb87 when he's available) and a very capable and incredibly dedicated delegate (NapHit). I've wondered how TFA can carry on down the current path with TFAs sometimes chosen a day ahead. TFA and Dabomb could definitely use some more help from trusted editors. The worst outcome is that articles are rushed onto the main page without any quality control. Many articles were promoted a long time ago, and many have serious issues that should be resolved before they're featured on the main page. That's why they should be listed for review a few weeks in advance of main page exposure. Having said that, Today's Featured Picture is becoming a bit of joke, while today's pic was nice, the bold-linked article in the blurb lead to an unreferenced stub article, the only bold-linked article on the main page which had absolutely no quality control whatsoever. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:17, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

This issue is actually being heard in several places now (main page talk and TFP talk), that the articles an FP is included in should have been brought up to a reasonable standard before the picture can be considered eligible. I think similar principles could be applied to a lesser extent to outgoing articles from FA ledes and FP blurbs. As for the rest of an FA, I'm a bit of a red link fan. I think they trump minimal stubs as there's a chance the red links will get the attention of someone willing to develop them properly. Samsara (FA • FP) 22:01, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, our main focus for main page article links should be those in bold (which all sections agree to apart from featured pictures) but then I think you're right, if we have the luxury of time and input, a check of all other links on a main page linked article would be optimal. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:05, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, i've never understood the idea of trying to remove all red links from FA articles and stuff. It's like implying that our best content won't have red links, when red links aren't bad and have nothing to do with the quality of the article they're in anyways. Red links are a good thing, we need to publicize those that exist more, not less. Silverseren 22:09, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

There are two separate substantive issues here, and there is a process question. On the substantive issues: I think there should be a Director and delegates - it is a useful decision making structure, and i have seen it work well. It appears Raul isn't active, and someone else should be made Director. Second substantive issue appears to be ensuring sufficient quality control in various Featured Content processes (of which promotion orf FAs is obviously just one). That can't be solved by replacing Raul as Director, but having a Director and then looking at, for example, having one or more new delegates, would be a good step. On process. Yes. Someone send an email to Raul saying he has done a fabulous job over the years, it is proposed to designate someone new as FA Director to help ensure there's enough bodies and a good decision structure, and the community will go ahead with a process in a week's time, unless he indicates he wishes to remain hands-on in the role. Per a comment above, though, I'd like to hear Casliber's take on whether any recent email he has sent to Raul has already effectively addressed that step. If it has, then we send a thank you email and get on with it. I think there are enough excellent people around to ensure it won't be hard to do... hamiltonstone (talk) 00:03, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I basically agree with this except the monolithic/palaeolithic structure. I think the term "delegate" should be changed into something less submissive, and the position of "director", if it is still found to be required and going to be called that, should be made rotatory among those who haven't explicitly opted out. I agree that we are still a community and should see ourselves that way. Samsara (FA • FP) 00:47, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I want to make a few quick points based on what I've seen in this thread. First, I'd like to see where "the Wikipediocracy people" have been talking about who the FA director is, and whether it is an on-Misplaced Pages conversation or not. Second, the reason TFL is running smoothly is that we only run one list per week. With many blurbs ready at WP:TFLS, not much needs to be done other than copying a blurb into an appropriate slot; writing blurbs for TFL is much more work, since there are more to write and not as many are receiving prior preparation. Even as an FL director, I don't think a direct comparison to TFA is fair on the FA director. Third, while I'm disappointed that Raul hasn't been more active since we gave him a vote of confidence, the thought of an election scares me. There's way too much factionalism as evident from the previous RFC, and I'm not convinced that "outsiders" without a large group of pre-existing supporters would have much of a chance of winning. I could picture the whole thing deteriorating rather quickly. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:18, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I sent an email in early October just suggesting we needed scheduling of Today's Featured Articles more in advance. I didn't get any reply. I voted for keeping the status quo back in January, but lengthy periods of inactivity on Raul's part are not helpful. Frustratingly, it wouldn't need much activity at all to keep things sailing along smoothly, and the process is still running smoothly for the most part, barring some anxiety at TFA. I really don't like the idea of an election I must say. Right at this point in time, I'd be happy if Raul assumed even a low level of activity indicating some form of finger on the pulse, as it were. Before anyone does or suggests anything drastic, however, we do need to hear from a few folks. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:36, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm really torn. First, I agree with a number of points made by Giants2008: WO shouldn't be the impetus to change here on WP, and the factionalism is still much in evidence and problematic. Also agree with Cas that yeah, definitely some anxiety at TFA and honestly I think we could do with another delegate to help out there, but Bencherlite is doing a nice job helping with blurbs and so on. Dabomb is still scheduling, and so that's not a problem but he's being pressured which I don't like to see. I'm with Cas in that I'd like to see some sort of low level of activity from Raul (in fact I posted something to that effect on his page about a month ago). Also agree with Giants that doing something quickly could potentially cause a huge mess. Not a lot of problems at the moment and I'm still not convinced we need to change anything, but it bears watching is my view. Truthkeeper (talk) 03:03, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Here you go. They're rude and disrespectful, as always, but the point about Raul being absent is a valid one and why I raised it here. Silverseren 03:37, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd read it. Here's the thing: the factionalism was brought about almost a year ago, beginning with TCO, moving on to Jack Merridew, aka Alarbus, aka Br'er Rabbit, and at that point people took sides. It's still going on, in my view, to some extent by proxy, and can very clearly be seen on various pages across WP. It's not like everyone who is to some degree or another involved with the FAC process isn't aware of all this. My view is what I wrote above: it's probably too soon to raise these issues. It only gives the opportunity for yet another dramafest. That said, as I mentioned above, yeah it would be nice to see Raul pop in to show he hasn't completely left. But really, what does that achieve? My sense is to let things go a bit longer, and ride this out. Truthkeeper (talk) 03:54, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

(It's actually aka Jack Rabbit, Dohardthings, and Informationbuddy1 now, which were caught just the other day.)

My question is though, how long are we going to give it before we officially say Raul isn't coming back? I mean, if he isn't responding to emails sent to him and hasn't edited for almost 3 months now, how long do we give before his absence is official? Silverseren 04:01, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Dunno the answer to that; let's let others weigh in. But this thread is only a few hours old, so it's a bit soon to know answers. At least that's what I think. Truthkeeper (talk) 04:06, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

If Raul isn't able to edit at this time (for whatever reason), after an appropriate amount of time, the FA Director position should go to SandyGeorgia, who spent years as the FA delegate. I know she's not highly active right now, but she did edit this month, so she is "around". And when/if Raul is able to return, we can cross that bridge at that juncture. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:29, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, if she wants it; she seemed to be burned out though. --Rschen7754 06:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be better to appoint someone who's actually semi-moderately to a fairly good amount active, not someone who's just around. I mean, isn't the point of the Director position to be someone who makes a lot of the decisions about the TFAs and stuff? I know Raul did back il the day. You need to be pretty active to keep up with that. Silverseren 06:47, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

SS, I agree that the person selected must be active; otherwise, the FA Director might as well be Raul. Firsfron of Ronchester 07:48, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

TFA director? Late to the discussion: what do we need a TFA director for anyway? TFA ran for more than 2 months without an active one, ran well in September, not quite as well in October. I suggest to change the TFA process to a collaborative effort, in Misplaced Pages spirit, Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:03, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• I agree with the suggestion(s) above that we wait several days for the director to speak up & clarify his role. If several days go by with no response, an RfC should be initiated to establish a process for determining a new leadership structure (which may a single individual, or a team, or a loose collaboration). The new leader(s) should be editors who are (1) experienced with FA; and (2) moderately active. --Noleander (talk) 07:07, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

  • The director - he isn't responding to emails sent to him and hasn't edited for almost 3 months now, - .......suggest director isn't needed - suggest having a director was more of a problem than a solution and I don't support a replacement - Youreallycan 08:34, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• I third that. Samsara (FA • FP) 10:37, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I have to admit to being a little surprised that a question raised at Wikipediocracy is generating so much heat here. While I'm sure Raul would be pleased to know that so many people miss him, one of the reasons we have delegates is so the FA director's presence is not required all the time. I can't imagine that the majority of editors want to revisit an RFC conducted barely a year ago, which in any case seemed to squarely favour retaining the overall FA system and its director. Can I therefore clarify just what is lacking in the delegates' efforts that requires Raul to intervene, or else risk being booted out of his role? Reading this thread, I didn't see any criticism being levelled at the FAC process, although there were points raised about TFA scheduling and quality control. If that's the case then I'd expect the discussion to be taking place at WT:TFAR, yet the main thing being talked about there now is point scores. So enlighten me, please. If some part of the FA system is perceived to need assistance, I daresay others among the delegate pool, myself included, could help out. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:04, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

To me, it seems the two main problems are a) when we need to appoint more delegates (as we need to at TFAR), Raul's the only one who can do so, and b) what to do if unusual issues pop up. --Rschen7754 10:05, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Community consensus seems to work at other times. Samsara (FA • FP) 10:39, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

<scratches head> I'm not sure what my problem is. 1. that i have been out of circulation for a while until recently or 2. i work in a bureaucracy in RL and so am kinda used to certain things. But someone cannot have a role unless they exercise it. Forget the crisis / what crisis debate, Raul isn't around, as I understand it. Unless we're treating him as some kind of ceremonial head of state (which seems wrong and not what anyone is saying), then that seems to be the end of the matter. He did a great job, pat on the back, but he just isn't "director", as a simple matter of practicality. As long as Graham and Ian don't feel the need to refer 'up the chain' to an arbiter, but are happy to bring unclear cases / issues to the community for guidance (perhaps per Gerda Arent's comment above), then we can just dispense with having an inactive account that is designated Director, and move on without it. Let's designate someone else 'delegate' if we want another. All of that said, I might benefit from some technical clarification. Rschen7754 commented that "when we need to appoint more delegates (as we need to at TFAR), Raul's the only one who can do so". That doesn't sound like WP to me. Delegate(s), can you clarify for me at least: do you or Raul have any authority / technical capabilities not shared by other editors or at least admins? hamiltonstone (talk) 11:27, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Complicated question. They have admin capabilities through which they add the TFAs to the main page. They are also wholly in charge of the FAC area, whether featured article candidates are accepted or not and when they are put on the front page. In a sense, the "authority" is over a niche, namely FA areas in this case, just like Arbcom has authority over dispute resolution rulings and such. However, unlike Arbcom...no one voted for the delegates or the director. They just appointed themselves. Silverseren 19:14, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify: SandyGeorgia isn't an admin thought she was a delegate for I don't know how many years, and I believe Ian Rose isn't an admin. Seems though that much of the issues here are focusing on TFAs and I think that Ian's suggestion to move the conversation there isn't a bad one. Truthkeeper (talk) 19:51, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The only FA position that really requires adminship is anything with TFA, because if you're not an admin, someone has to follow you around move-protecting the pages. --Rschen7754 19:55, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Just to respond to a couple of points above, yes Rschen7754, the FA Director appoints delegates, delegates don't appoint other delegates, and yes TK, I'm not an admin, nor have I any desire to be, despite a number of kind people offering to propose me over the years. BTW, whoever thinks "delegate" is an offensive term, I've never considered it so -- I'd hardly have accepted this position if I did...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:32, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Hey everyone - I'm still around. I haven't been editing much, but I still pop in to check my watchlist several times a week. I'm at work as I write this. I'll pop back in later tonight and respond to the above in greater detail. Raul654 (talk) 14:00, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

There's a some misinformation floating around this discussion. I'd like to dispel some of it:

Samsara above claimed that "As usual, the request for due process was handwaved away, and that's how controversy has followed Raul in what, to the best of my ability to research this, is essentially a self-appointment." This is patently untrue. I started doing FA-leadership type things in December of 2003, was ratified in that position in August 2004 (see here) and re-ratified in that position earlier this year. I also think there was a reconfirmation in the 2007-2008 timeframe, but I could be mistaken.

SilverSeren claimed that "However, unlike Arbcom...no one voted for the delegates or the director. They just appointed themselves." This is wrong on both counts. I was voted by the community, and I choose the delegates (in consultation with the existing ones).

Several people above claimed that the position is unnecessary. We already beat that one to death (and well beyond) earlier this year. The result of that discussion was an extremely lopsided consensus to keep the position, and to keep me in it. I'm not going to re-litigate that one.

Rschen7754 is somewhat correct that TFA requires being an administrator. TFA pages are auto-protected 24 hours before they hit the main page. Any edits after that point can only be done by administrators. Prior to that, however, anyone can edit them.

I'm open to appointing a new TFA delegate. If anyone would like to volunteer or nominate one, please contact me privately. I don't think there's a need for a new FAC or FAR delegate, but I'm open to someone trying to convince me otherwise. Raul654 (talk) 22:30, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I would trust that Bencherlite, Brianboulton, Malleus Fatuorum and Wehwalt could all be trusted to perform closing of FA nominations and scheduling of TFA. Scheduling is 2 days in advance at present, if that can be called "in advance". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:47, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I would not be willing to serve under Raul. Never mind what happened before, walking off your job in a hissy fit and not being seen for getting on for three months is no way to conduct yourself, and I have no confidence in him as FA director.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:54, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, since the lack of a need for the director has been demonstrated, and there are candidates both available and willing that the community would approve, I don't see what's in the way of getting rid of the director role and simply having the project run by a more diverse group of people. Seems to solve all the gripes. Samsara (FA • FP) 23:27, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not looking for any kind of "official" position here at Misplaced Pages, and not being an administrator I wouldn't be prepared to consider it anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 01:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

To clarify, that's move-protecting the actual articles, although if an article needs to be emergency-pulled (plagiarism for example) an admin would need to do it as well. --Rschen7754 22:33, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Was the discussion earlier this year wiki-wide, with a watchlist page notice and everything? Notifications at AN/Village Pump/ all the other areas? Silverseren 23:29, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

From my recollection, yes, it was. --Rschen7754 23:31, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Huh, weird. Must have missed that one. Silverseren 23:54, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Nearly 100 participants, dozens of incoming links, 3 signpost articles. Yes, it was very well advertised. Raul654 (talk) 00:06, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Notification (Feb 2012 archive) at Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion; a watchlist notice was requested but was opposed and did not happen; mention in the Signpost (1) and (2); Village Pump notification. See also Special:WhatLinksHere/Wikipedia:Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership for the full list of incoming links. Bencherlite 00:09, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I notice that a lot of the people in the RfC said that the reason why things don't need to change is that an "RfC can be made at any time". Meaning, if there's ever any concerns, then an RfC can be immediately raised. Silverseren 00:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I was the person who formulated the previous RfC. If you feel another one is appropriate, I (and I think many others) would prefer that you try to find out if there is enough support to make it worthwhile before starting one. That RfC took a huge amount of energy out of FAC participants, and it would be better not to start another draining discussion unless there is significant support for change. For myself, I think it's too soon after the last RfC for another; the consensus was very clear. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:53, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Much has happened since then. First of all, the two editors who were Raul's enforcers, SandyGeorgia and Moni3, are gone or nearly gone, and without their intimidation, I daresay the RFC might have had a very different outcome. Second, Raul committed serious misconduct with the bits. The matter went away after his departure, but the arbitration committee may wish to take up the issue of his misuse of tools, since we are not supposed allow people to sneak off to avoid the heat and then come back. Basically, I would say the 2012 RFC is a moot point: much has changed since then, and the community, more to the point, has done very well running the FA processes without Raul and proven he is not necessary. I suggest we simply regard the post as historical, and move on, and at some point see what we want to do over the long term with how these areas function.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:17, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Did you forget something, Wehwalt? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:08, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Endorse. Samsara (FA • FP) 23:27, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

The bottom line is that it's going to continue to be a source of controversy, and you continue to choose to do nothing constructive about it. Putting in place another "delegate" (honestly, that always sounded offensive to me) is really completely missing the issue. My prediction is that changes will happen at some point. You can choose to diffuse the tension beforehand, but it doesn't look like you're interested. I really wonder what sort of belief you hold about these repeated attempts to demonstrate consensus for your removal. You must have rationalised it somehow... Samsara (FA • FP) 00:24, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

No, it's not going to continue, because if there was one thing that was extremely obvious from the lopsided RFC earlier this year, the "controversy" was cooked up by Jack Merridrew and his enablers. This current discussion is a result of my absence, which happened entirely because Jack's harassment and wikistalking made Misplaced Pages extremely unpleasant to edit for me. Good riddance to him. Raul654 (talk) 00:34, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like classical "blaming others" to me... Samsara (FA • FP) 00:37, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I place the blame where it deserves to be placed. Do you have a point in this somewhere? Raul654 (talk) 00:46, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I've given you my assessment of the situation. I note that you're not responding to most of the issues that have been raised. Are you afraid that making improvements will be seen as a weakness on your part? Samsara (FA • FP) 00:51, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

You complained about the changes I'm proposing ("Putting in place another "delegate" is really completely missing the issue."), made some nebulous prediction of change, and then complained that I'm afraid of change (which rather contradicts your first complaint, that the changes I've proposed miss the point). I'm open to constructive ideas, but to be honest, I haven't seen many here besides the ones I laid out myself. Raul654 (talk) 01:00, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Just putting my 2c in, I have been quite happy with how things are going, I just was getting a little anxious that TFA had been cut a bit fine on a few occasions, and that another person to lodge TFAs would be prudent...and we hadn't heard from you in a couple of months. FAC delegates are doing a fine job. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:25, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, at FAC things have been going well. I don't do anything at FAR, but not aware of anything bad. In the event of emergency, would it be possible to allow any delegate to be able to schedule FAs or pull a FA? I think it's been suggested before. --Rschen7754 03:00, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• On a separate note, Raul came back! My evil plan was successful! *dances* ヽ(ﾟｰﾟ*ヽ) ヽ(*ﾟｰﾟ*)ﾉ (ﾉ*ﾟｰﾟ)ﾉ Silverseren 06:17, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Surely, this discussion should focus on the necessary things that are not being done as a result of Raul's absences. So far, one thing has been identified; the need for at least one more delegate to assist with the TFA process. Raul has asked for suggestions and/or nominations, so one assumes that an appointment will soon follow. What else needs to be done? I'll give one example: earlier this year Raul was, I believe, involved in negotiations to bring JSTOR access to selected editors. Were these discussions pursued, and with what result? Maybe I am simply underinformed (I have been a bit on-and-off this year) but that initiative strikes me as being exactly the sort of thing a director ought to be doing., and reporting on progress to the community. I bear Raul no personal animus, but I must say I am somewhat unimpressed by his "explanation" for his absence. I would have expected a more robust reaction, whatever the provocation. Brianboulton (talk) 16:28, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Raul was helpful in getting this going at the start, setting up Misplaced Pages:Requests for JSTOR access, but Steven Walling of WMF took it over about a year ago. This seems appropriate to me, as a legal agreement is involved, & I don't see this as part of the FA director role at all, except maybe to chase the WMF. In fact, after an amazingly long time, things do seem to be moving there at last - see "Status?" section on the talk page there. Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I kicked off the JSTOR thing in April (Specifically, I emailed Jay Walsh to asking him to find someone in the WMF who could represent our interests to Jstor. He brought in Steve Walling). I wasn't directly involved in the negotiations - that was exclusvely between JSTOR and WMF legal. There was a breakthrough on that six days ago. The first 100 JSTOR accounts should start opening up soon. See here. Raul654 (talk) 16:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for these updates. Good to know it's still a live issue. Brianboulton (talk) 17:05, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to Raul and everyone involved in the JSTOR process. I have access to JSTOR from my work computer, but lack home access. This could potentially really be a help. Just wanted to say thanks to all involved. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:46, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

JSTOR for more editors would be a godsend. Well done. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment