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Revision as of 00:12, 25 November 2012 editAnthonyMark00 (talk | contribs)92 edits →John Todd a Wiccan← Previous edit Revision as of 00:15, 25 November 2012 edit undoAnthonyMark00 (talk | contribs)92 edits →SourcesNext edit →
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As you can see back then there was people putting false infromation on this page, nothings changed. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:58, 24 November 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> As you can see back then there was people putting false infromation on this page, nothings changed. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:58, 24 November 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Youtube is not a ], and please see ]. Schnoebelen claims to have come from a similar () background because he's the same brand of charlatan. ] (]) 14:29, 24 November 2012 (UTC) :Youtube is not a ], and please see ]. Schnoebelen claims to have come from a similar () background because he's the same brand of charlatan. ] (]) 14:29, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Neither our points of view matter! Thats the point! It needs to be in the same format as his!
Or you can go sabo his page as well!
] (]) 00:15, 25 November 2012 (UTC)


== Court cases == == Court cases ==

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Articles for deletionThis article was nominated for deletion on 8 October 2009. The result of the discussion was keep.

Attribution

This article was created based on text from an earlier version of this article. Contributors to that article included:

This list of names is supplied to meet attribution requirements set out under the Wikimedia Foundation's Terms of Use. Without attribution as set forth in those terms, Misplaced Pages's content cannot be reused. --Moonriddengirl 20:53, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Why this article should not have been deleted

This article is no more an attack than the article on David Icke or Son of Sam: the man has said and done some stuff that ministers (or other people) really aren't supposed to, but pointing these things out is not a POV based attack. This man, along with William Schoebelen, is one of the major sources of criticism against D&D (Jack Chick did not come up with these criticisms, he just printed them). Had he simply made most of his and done nothing else, he would not be notable, but he did cause quite a stir and has caused a lot of trouble for church-going fantasy fans (particularly in theologically conservative areas). Everything is sourced and verifiable. Christianity Today and Cornerstone magazine are good sources for this sort of material. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:12, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Another note

The page is not a copyright violation of http://www.illuminati-news.com/0/JohnToddWikipedia.htm, they just had a back up of the article. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:12, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, though, it is a copyright violation of contributors to the earlier article here. I am remedying this with a list of contributors. Content contributed by other Wikipedians cannot be reused without attribution as set forth at wmf:Terms of Use. --Moonriddengirl 20:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The title which says John Todd(occultist)should say John Todd(revolutionary) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.50.10.129 (talk) 08:24, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Or you could not try to censor the article. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:34, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Why this article should not be deleted again

A lack of general and widespread fame is not the same as importance or notability, or else there wouldn't be a page on Susan Audé, even though many in my home state know of her. John Todd is notable because he is the primary source of many of Jack Chick's claims on various subjects, as has been added to the article. When Christian fundamentalists make arguments against D&D (not that all of them do, but about as many do as those that find rock music morally objectionable), claims originally made by John Todd or derived from his beliefs usually come up. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:17, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

If we delete this article, we need to delete the articles on Jeff Godwin, Rebecca Brown (Christian author), and Avro Manhattan. I have to wonder exactly why those articles which don't affect the reputation of Chick Publications in any way have not been deleted, but the articles on John Todd and William Schnoebelen have been deleted when they are equally common references for Chick but have said and done things that do not help Chick's authority. I can't help remember the USA Congressional staff edits to Misplaced Pages for some reason. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Each article needs to stand on its own. The existence of an article about someone is not a valid reason for others to exist. Notability has nothing to do with being a primary source for someone's claims. In order to establish Misplaced Pages notability one has to meet Misplaced Pages criteria. BTW - Your claims of censorship are not only unfounded, I can assure you they are far from the truth. ttonyb (talk) 22:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Looking at Misplaced Pages:BIO, John Todd meets the criteria for a notable creative professional, he "is known for originating a significant new concept" and "has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." Also, what is there to claim that John Todd isn't notable? This isn't asking to prove a negative, but I'm just asking what the argument is. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:29, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I would doubt the work he has produced is significant to meet the criteria or that he has initiated a new concept that meets the criteria. The question is not what "is there to claim that John Todd isn't notable," the question is what is what makes him notable. The burden of providing support for the article rests on the author of the article. ttonyb (talk) 23:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Ah, so the non-argument of it's just not notable. As for significance, he "played a major role in co-creating" the , as well as . Let's say that the general public was not particularly aware of Scheopenhaur, but fans and critics of Nietzsche were (OK, this actually isn't all hard to imagine). A Scheopenhaur article would exist because of Scheopenhaur's influence on Nietzsche on this same principle. I have provided evidence for notability and significance, and you have not provided any evidence to the contrary. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The big problem I see with this article is not so much notability as the reliability of the citations. Assuming the online (possibly copyvio) reprints of articles from Christianity Today, etc., are all legitimate, then I would be satisfied as to notability. But this should be verified by something more reliable than ideological websites. Also, there are currently no sources for the claim that he is a convicted rapist, which is a serious accusation that absolutely must be supported with a reliable source if it is to stay in the article. --RL0919 (talk) 23:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I just couldn't leave the rape accusation in there unsupported, so I did a news search and found an article describing at least one conviction. I reworded to take out the references to additional criminal activities pending additional sources being found to support those. --RL0919 (talk) 00:12, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
The reprints are a bit more verified than just a citing the issue, which would be acceptable. Looking at the other end of the ideological spectrum, this site which admit that Christianity Today and Cornerstone did print articles exposing Todd. I have found a reprint of the Christianity Today article which was reprinted with permission, I'll go and replace the links. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Cornerstone is a reliable source, btw, right? AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 22:38, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


Sources

Obviously the sourcing for this article still has a lot of issues. Many of the citations simply don't meet the reliable sources guidelines (e.g., the "James Japan" website, HolySmoke.org). However, Google searches suggest that much better sources are available. I'm creating this talk page section as a waystation for listing potential sources that could be used for the article:

  • Burack, Cynthia (2008). Sin, Sex, and Democracy: Antigay Rhetoric and the Christian Right. Albany, New York: SUNY Press. p. 49. ISBN 978-0-7914-7405-1. preview available:
  • Johnson, George (1983). Architects of Fear: Conspiracy Theories and Paranoia in American Politics. Los Angeles: J.P. Tarcher. pp. 98–99. ISBN 0-87477-275-3.
  • Barkun, Michael (2006). A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America. Berkeley, California: University of California Press. ISBN 0-520-24812-0. - Todd is discussed on a number of different pages, previews available
  • Medway, Gareth J. (2001). Lure of the Sinister: The Unnatural History of Satanism. New York: NYU Press. pp. 169–174. ISBN 0-8147-5645-X. preview available:

Whole book on him, used as a source by Barkun - Darryl E. Hicks and David A. Lewis, The Todd Phenomenon - ex-Grand Druid vs. the Illuminati, Fact or Fantasy?. I'm going to check to see if I have this Barkun book on my SD card, as the title is oddly familiar to me. If I have it, I can help - still a little annoyed that the Schnoebelen article was canned, and I've got some free time this weekend. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 22:42, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I didn't have the Barkun book, but found a copy on a certain notable Swedish website whose name rhymes with the phrase "fire at bay". It's certainly a notable author and Google Books suggests it could be a very good source. Note, Bill Ellis' book Raising the Devil also mentions Todd. Anyone got that one? AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 23:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

How is it okay for a source that is not proven reliable to be used? Doesn't that completely undermine the credibility of an article, deeming it worse than useless? Someone please tell me how this link (the first source) is reliable, seeing as there are NO citations for it's numerous claims which from the outset you realize are there for negative light. Unreliable sources should not be used, period. Misinformation is worse than no information.Zhulia (talk) 04:45, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:CITE applies to articles here, not articles used as sources. The neutrality guidelines do not say that Misplaced Pages has to pretend that everyone is a good person, either (I mean, consider what sources the sources for the Hitler article would be if we did). Especially if they're dead. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:12, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
The point isn't 'pretending he is a good person' but NOT using an unreliable source 'pretending' he is a bad person. That article makes outrageous and bold claims riddled with insults with nothing to support itself. Key words: no reliability. You are talking motives (which sheds light on where you stand), I am talking about keeping the page legitimate.Zhulia (talk) 02:44, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Articles published in generally reputable publications (such as Christianity Today, which is the source you are questioning) are presumed to be reliable sources unless there is a good reason to believe otherwise. Merely lacking source citations is not a good reason, since it is common for articles in popular magazines to lack such citations. Moreover, the article was published during Todd's lifetime, so he had ample opportunity to respond or even sue for libel if the article was defamatory, but there is no indication that he did either. --RL0919 (talk) 02:58, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

If you are going to keep this article in it's current state them you must also change William Schnoebelen page to match his, as they have almost identical backgrounds & both talk about the same subject matter. The only difference between these two people is that William Schnoebelen is still around today! It is heavily biased and has been this way for a while. I first came across this page in 2010 when I was researching a video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqAMKQxfaOI As you can see back then there was people putting false infromation on this page, nothings changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnthonyMark00 (talk • contribs) 08:58, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Youtube is not a reliable source, and please see WP:PRIMARY. Schnoebelen claims to have come from a similar (and impossible) background because he's the same brand of charlatan. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:29, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Neither our points of view matter! Thats the point! It needs to be in the same format as his! Or you can go sabo his page as well! AnthonyMark00 (talk) 00:15, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Court cases

I don't know if there is a reliable secondary source that discusses this, but Google searching on the name Kristopher Kollyns reveals a significant number of jailhouse legal cases by Todd/Kollyns, apparently all handled pro se. Most of them were rejected, of course, but they do show he was incarcerated in South Carolina for an extended period, and they also show that he was committed to a mental institution after his release from prison. They also reveal additional name variations: Johnnie W. Todd, Kris Sarayn Kollyns, Christopher S. Kollins and Kristopher S. Kollins. I don't think most of these will be of any direct use in the article without it becoming original research, but I wanted to mention it here both to affirm the basic soundness of the article's content and to bring up the additional names in case it helps anyone else searching for source material. --RL0919 (talk) 17:29, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Please that is not the point. It's nothing to do with YouTube. But I will say again. Both men have almost identical backgrounds and simillar messages. Furthurmore this article has been based on information provided that does not exist. As I have checked the link & could not find any pdf file detailing him turning away from Christianity after his last public recorded statement of faith.

It is also worth noting is that link is to an interview with the man himself. So his own words do qualify as a primary source of information if I wanted to use it as such. If you cannot create these pages without lies & fabrication then you should not try at all. Or IF you do have the evidence please show it. As I have never seen nor heard of it in my studies! AnthonyMark00 (talk) 23:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Todd & Kennedy

It is highly doubtful that John Todd ever claimed he was John F. Kennedy's "personal warlock". Anyone who has heard Todd's sermons knows that he hated the term "warlock" and used "witch" or "wizard" to describe himself. Furthermore, Todd claimed that Kennedy had converted to Christianity several months prior to his death and that it was the cause of his assassination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.70.114.33 (talk) 07:03, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

John Todd a Wiccan

Hi,

One source, a court case filed by John Todd (ref: http://www.websupp.org/data/DSC/022862-DSC.pdf) on January 28, 2005, has him stating he is a member of the Wiccan religion. Also, John Todd took offense when Christian services were held in the open area and he overheard them when he was locked down in his cell.

I suggest that this indicates that John Todd does not belong to Category:Christian fundamentalists.

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 03:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Belief-based categories are always problematic, because it is very common for people to change their beliefs over time. If Todd was a Christian fundamentalist at one time, and then later wasn't, then you could argue either way for whether the category applies. So in keeping with Misplaced Pages's fundamental policies, the normal way to resolve this is to look at what reliable secondary sources say about the subject. Looking at the sources used in the article, they talk about his reception in fundamentalist churches, but none seem to specifically label him as a fundamentalist. So on that basis (not just because of what a court document says), I would agree that the category should be removed. --RL0919 (talk) 13:07, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Thats an unacceptable conclusion. The sources listed in the article DO in fact reffer to him as a fundamentalist on his audio tapes given from Oneness Pentecostal. The host does indeed afirm his belief in Mr Todds faith. It's a leap to go from "Looking at the sources used in the article, they talk about his reception in fundamentalist churches, but none seem to specifically label him as a fundamentalist." to saying he was still an occultist on unverified evidence. And atheist or not do any of you believe Christian Churches would allow Wiccans to openly come and talk to their congregations. So many Christians wouldnt listen to what he has to say today if they thought of him as an occultist. Cmon people that dont make sense does it! AnthonyMark00 (talk) 00:08, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

His death

Does anybody know how how he died? It says that he died in the institute he was in, but it doesn't say how. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.186.136.190 (talk) 08:31, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Any information on his death is unknown, for all we know he could be alive, though personally, i highly doubt it 24.9.32.185 (talk) 23:53, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I have checked out ths above source & found it to be false. There is no pdf document on that link. The Occultist in the title appears to be based on this evidence. Where are my other comments I left here in the talk page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnthonyMark00 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

His life preceding the 1970s

There is a distinct lack of information regarding John Todd's life before the 1970s. Perhaps research efforts could be focused in that direction some more? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.3.168.120 (talk) 17:26, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, you are welcome to help, too. Here are the guidelines on identifying reliable sources, here are the guidelines on citing those sources, and here are the guidelines on writing with a neutral point of view. Basically, we need newspaper or magazine articles, or books that don't have an agenda (basically, avoid stuff that says "the Illuminati and Satanists are out to get you!"). Todd's claims about his life before then (and sources based on them) are contentious, libellous, and unverified. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:36, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

John Todd on JFK

Previously this article claims that John Todd said he was JFK's personal Warlock, untill someone can provide proof that he actually said this, i am deleting it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.9.32.185 (talk) 20:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Try clicking the numbers after the statements, they're links to the sources. In the case of the Kennedy warlock claim, there's a after it, and if you click that, you'll see that the first reference is "Plowman, Edward E. (February 2, 1979). "The Legend(s) of John Todd". Christianity Today." In there, it says "He claimed that the Illuminati were financing some fundamentalist churches, that he had been the Kennedy family's personal warlock..." As for the other stuff you removed without justification, those too were sourced. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:07, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

They may have been sourced but they are unreliable, the article was obviously biased againist John Todd, and the quote they gave may or may not be legitimate, we could keep it in, but emphasize that he MAY or may not have said it, if you so wish. But i have no intention of giving information off as confirmed, without justification, which you claim i do not have. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:07, 2 February 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.9.32.185 (talk) 22:36, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

What evidence do you have that Christianity Today is unreliable? The guidelines do not say we have to kiss anyone's arse and hide crazy stuff they've done or said just to make them look nice for their fans. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:07, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

When did i say i wanted to hide anything, all im saying is that it may or may not be true that he said that, and i have found no tapes which prove that he did so, there is only the word of a website which claims that he did so. Once again, perhaps we could show that this is disputable whether or not he said it? Putting something off as fact when we are not sure whether or not it is true is illogical, and it dosen't mean im kissing ass. Also, the christianity article claims that he said he was the Kennedy family's personal Warlock, not just John F Kennedy in particular 24.9.32.185 (talk) 20:55, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Christianity Today quotes him saying "John F. Kennedy was not really killed; I just came back from a visit with him on his yacht." I've added another source that supports his claims of being a warlock for Kennedy, a book published by the New York University Press. Also, we primarily rely on secondary sources to avoid issues of interpretation. But, to satisfy you, I've found a collection of his tapes and am going through them right now. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:42, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Ian Johnson, if you can find solid proof that John Todd did say that, i will gladly give in to it. Should you be unable to find this, i suggest we emphasize that it IS disputable whether or not he said those words. Either way, im sorry that you are annoyed that i have fought hard to question the sources, but it is the duty of anyone trying to edit wikipedia to make sure it is reliable as possible, even in articles which may seem as irrelevant as this one 24.9.32.185 (talk) 04:01, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

The sources given by Ian.thomson above appear to be sufficient for the claim. "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true" (emphasis in original) WP:V. No sources have been presented, so far as I can see above, regarding whether the quote is disputable. "Misplaced Pages does not publish original research. The term "original research" refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—not already published by reliable sources" (emphasis in original) WP:OR Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 04:57, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Who the hell is Ian Johnson? Edit: Also, it's gonna take some time, each file is about an hour, and I actually do stuff here besides this article, and I do stuff besides Misplaced Pages. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:02, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Going through those tapes is actually not necessary, for the reasons I stated above, unless you're really interested to do it. However, there are a couple attendant problems. kt70.com is a WP:SPS. Even if it weren't, finding a primary source where Todd says what the RSes ascribe to him may be a problem of WP:Original research, unless perhaps the secondary source has a citation to it. Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 17:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

So your willing to just give a quote that may or may not have been true, which could be misleading to people who may want to learn about him. Which means you are admiting that alot of what is being said could be outright lies? That destroys the credibility of wikipedia in my eyes. 24.9.32.185 (talk) 23:36, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

By such a standard, no information except what you experience yourself is reliable. There is no reason to suspect the Christianity Today article. It would have been easy to call them out on it, and it fits with his other claims. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:39, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

So your saying that even if it isn't true that it dosen't really matter because he was a complete whacko? Thats not a very "neutral" point of view, as the wikipedia code of conduct says we are supposed to have. It is not our place to judge people, only to put in the facts...if you don't want to do it i will gladly look through them. I've also been looking through alot of his videos and tapes, and whenever he talks about JFK, he emphasizes that the reason he was killed was because he betrayed the "illuminati" but i never heard him speak of being a Warlock so far. As for the Verifibility rule, i must admit i am a bit defeated on that, seems as if that one was made specifically to cut people like me down.24.9.32.185 (talk) 23:47, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with the mental health of Todd. If reliable sources say Person X said Quote Y, that satisfies Misplaced Pages's WP:V policy ("verifiability, not truth" dates back there at least to August 25, 2005 diff), and is NPOV. NPOV states "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." It is not required that the reliable sources not make judgments. The idea that the quote might not be true amounts to original research and is POV in nature. As far as the credibility of Misplaced Pages goes, you might read Misplaced Pages:About to understand more about the nature of Misplaced Pages, perhaps particularly sections 2.3-2.5.
There actually is a problem of sorts with the Christianity Today citation in its current form, though. CT is a reliable source. smwane.dk may not be. WP should be citing to the article, not to smwane.dk's reproduction of it. I might be able to check it tomorrow and sub in the correct full citation. Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 01:37, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

If we cannot do original research, what research CAN be done to prove otherwise? Because that just makes wikipedia hypocritical for misleading people with potentially false information 67.173.246.167 (talk) 00:37, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm tired of this axe-grinding. WP:NOTCENSORED. WP:NOTSOAPBOX. Deal with it. We've reported what matches our pretty damn reasonable standards for reliable sources (they're much higher standards than most news networks). I've listened to the guy's sermons, and he does indeed makes claims about being Kennedy's warlock. Unless you can bring in a reliable source that features anything of Todd countering the Christianity Today article in any way, it stays. Just because you don't want to believe it is no reason to whitewash the article. If you don't like it, you don't have to edit here. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:07, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't like it, and it seems i have no choice. But yea, your a liar. I listened to them all and he mentions nowhere that he was Kennedy's Warlock, but if you would be kind enough to point me to the one where he did, i would be very happy to hear it 67.173.246.167 (talk) 21:19, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Does it matter? Todd was born in 1950, so by the time JFK was killed, Todd would have been no older than 13! That puts it all to rest right there! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.8.197.169 (talk) 15:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

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