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FDA letter . . .

Hello, all: The large amount of space given to one FDA letter during VanderSloot's rather long life seems to be a good instance of contradicting WP:Undue. Therefore, I am making a subhead for that phase of the article and marking it for attention. I really don't think it should be used at all: It is equivalent to reporting on a speeding ticket that one of his truckdrivers might have received back in 1997. Please comment on whether this section should or should not be deleted.

An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

Thank you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 23:29, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I disagree that it is unduly weighted. It has been mentioned by secondary sources and is described succinctly in the article and only in as much detail as is necessary to convey the gist. Suggesting that FDA warnings are analogous to a speeding ticket is nothing more than a personal opinion (c.f. WP:OR) and it demonstrates a lack of understating of their significance. It's especially relevant given that VS had a serious run-in with the FDA for similar issues while running Oil of Melaleuca. If anything, you have given it even more weight by offsetting it into a separate section. Rhode Island Red (talk) 01:42, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• Remove the entire item. (1) Please read the original posting at the top of this section. (2) The reason the item now has a subheader is so that a tag could be placed on just one particular section. The tag reads: "An editor has expressed a concern that this section lends undue weight to certain ideas, incidents, controversies or matters relative to the article subject as a whole. Please help to create a more balanced presentation. Discuss and resolve this issue before removing this message. (Emphasis supplied.) (3) There is only one Source given for this item, in a trade website. (The other Source is the letter itself, which is not good enough in Misplaced Pages's eyes to use as a Source alone.) This factoid about Melaleuca was never the object of scrutiny in any other Reliable Source, nor reported on elsewhere. It is therefore de minimis. It is, given the thousands of products made by Melaleuca, just not worth trifling about. Nor, given the fact that this article is about a Living Person and not a company, does it warrant even a mention in the biography of this man. GeorgeLouis (talk) 17:45, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

FDA's involvement with Oil of Melaleuca is a big deal. The 1997 letter is a different matter. The letter itself states that it is not a reflection of Melaleuca in general, which is how it is being used in this article. To put it in the proper context, the warning letter would require either a very long explanation or original research, neither of which is appropriate. The FDA also did not say that the claims were necessarily untrue, since that's beyond its statutory purview. Andrewman327 (talk) 21:30, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't require a long explanation at all. It has a short explanation now and it serves the purpose fine. All the key details are there, the primary and secondary source are linked, and no additional context is necessary. FDA warnings are pretty straightforward and unambiguous. They don't deal with whether or not claims are true; simply whether or not they are legal, and in this case the claims were not legal. DSHEA provides blanket rules specifying what sellers of dietary supplements can and cannot say about their products; when companies break the rules, they get a warning and then fines/sanctioned if they refuse to comply with the order. The FDA warning is relevant and noteworthy enough on its own, but even more so given that VS's previous company had an identical run in with the FDA and received the same type of warning. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:37, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

It is not up to Misplaced Pages to assert what you seem to wish us to assert. All supplement companies get FDA letters. A "warning" is of de minimis importance in a BLP. If you found a fine being paid, that would warrant some WEIGHT, the warning, by itself, is heavily overweighted at this point. Collect (talk) 22:40, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

FDA has a 21 page manual explaining what warning letters are and I stand by what I said about it being too wonky to be able to describe without either making it sound worse than it was or giving the section undue weight. As far as I can tell, FDA has never taken an administrative action against the company. Even the letter they sent 15 years ago did not apply to the company writ large. Andrewman327 (talk) 03:04, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

It was stated above that the letter "has been mentioned by secondary sources." I think just one secondary source. Is there a consensus to remove the section, or should we seek more input? GeorgeLouis (talk) 03:12, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I certainly agree that it should be removed. Andrewman327 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:19, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm in agreement as well. The letter is just talking about wording on a product label. Doesn't seem notable.HtownCat (talk) 21:41, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I am removing that section according to what seems like consensus. If there are other editors who want to keep it, then I hope they will weigh in here for a possible new consensus. Thank you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 23:50, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't buy any consensus based on a voting block exclusively from WP Project Conservatism, and especially not a consensus based on simple "me too" comments and WP:OR. This is a chronic problem that needs to be addressed with the admins if it continues. FDA warning letters are indeed significant and highly notable. Your assertion to the contrary is WP:OR. The warning letter IS an administrative action. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:22, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Given the POV issue, I suggest that we take disputes to DR in the future. It's important that we get impartial input from a variety of editors on content discussions. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:34, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

You are quite alone - see WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:12, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

A discussion has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Frank_L._VanderSloot_discussion. This is the first step in the WP:Dispute resolution process. GeorgeLouis (talk) 01:07, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

The paragraph has been removed in accordance with the resolution made at the above Notice Board. GeorgeLouis (talk) 22:25, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The section that replaced the FDA letter section needs attention. Two of the provided sources quote other cited sources without adding any new information and should be removed. It appears that back in the nineties some of the company's distributors oversold the program. Other than that, the only specific information I found is the FDA letter, which has been talked to death already with the consensus that it is not notable. Does anyone know of anything specific that has happened in this decade or the past decade? If nothing else, this section should be more focused on specific things that meet BLP standards and do not require Synthesis. Andrewman327 (talk) 02:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I believe that Section was replaced by a single paragraph, which I tried to remove as contrary to a consensus to leave it out, but that removal was itself Reverted. And then a freeze was put on any editing for a week. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frank_L._VanderSloot&diff=next&oldid=519505504. The new paragraph should really be simply removed once the freeze has thawed. GeorgeLouis (talk) 03:54, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I’ve reverted the recent changes on the actions by the Michigan/Idaho State attorneys and FDA. as they are inconsistent with what the sources wrote. First, the sources don’t refer to date ranges, so the addition of “from 1991 to 1997” qualifies as WP:OR. Secondly, the weasel word “alleged” was added twice; none of the sources referred to “alleged” so this to is WP:OR (see WP:ALLEGED. Third, changes were made to the FDA section so that it specifically referred to the 1997 FDA warning letter, but 3 of the sources merely say that the company was targeted by the FDA; they didn't refer to dates and they didn't specifically mention the 1997 FDA warning letter, so that too is WP:OR with a bit of WP:SYNTH. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:43, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the sentence about the FDA letter according to the DRN discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_51#Frank_L._VanderSloot. HtownCat (talk) 17:50, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Cheese factory

This article should present all aspects of the subject, the good as well as the bad. Therefore, I added some information about his purchase of the cheese factory — why he did it, the results thereof, how much it cost him, the details of his transaction, one quotation which told why he eventually sold it, etc., all as delineated in a Reliable Source. These additions were reverted by User:Rhode Island Red with the Edit Summary "rv -- a partisan puff piece published 6 yeas after the fact quoting 1 farmer on insider business details is insufficient; none of the other business news sources mention these details - just stick to basic facts " Click here for the diff. The source, here, is a reputable agricultural website, and the story included information about one of the controversies in which VanderSloot had been engaged. Despite what Rhode Island Red noted, it also included a direct quote from VS. I am adding an "Undue Weight" tag to that section and am inviting comment here as to which version should be used. Thank you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:04, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

First of all, the current version is very conservative and mainstream in what it describes about the factory and VandeSloots involvement; therefore, it's inappropriate to present this as an issue of undue weight, and the tag was unnecessary. The details you wanted to add, which are fluff essentially, are pulled from an interview with a lone farmer (clearly not a reliable or compelling source for insider financial transaction details) and presented in a politically-charged puff-piece from a trade rag written 6 years after Vandersloot sold his interest in the company. It's not confirmed by any other sources and it seems like a vanity piece whose sole purpose was to negate VandeSloot's anti-gay reputation and whitewash his political campaign donations -- so much so that I would have thought it was an ad paid for by VanderSloot himself. You initially included this in the philanthropy section of the article, and it seems that you are still intent on spinning it this way. It's a business transaction, so stick to the basic non-contentious facts. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:28, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

The following is the version I posted 00:12, 6 October 2012 in full conformance with Misplaced Pages:IMPROVE#Adding information to Misplaced Pages:

In 1994, VanderSloot was approached by Firth, Idaho, dairy farmer Gaylen Clayson with a plea to invest in the Snake River Cheese factory in Blackfoot, Idaho, after Kraft Foods had announced a decision to close it. In response, VanderSloot bought a $1 million interest in the plant, which closed anyway within six months, after an investment company assumed control. Dairymen crowded into a local meeting hall afterward to make another plea to VanderSloot, who thereupon paid off a $2 million debt owed to the dairymen, staffed the plant with his own personnel and supplemented the milking herd with two thousand head of cows. He later brought in Beatrice Cheese, a subsidiary of ConAgra, to run the factory. In 1999, the company netted $278 million in sales. In 2000, VanderSloot sold all of his interest in the company to Suprema Specialties. "My business is Melaleuca and that's what I need to pay attention to," he said. In 2006, the factory, which by then had been renamed as the Blackfoot Cheese Company, was sold to Sartori Foods.

The following was the reversion that Rhode Island Red made 15:35, 6 October 2012 in violation of Misplaced Pages:Revert only when necessary:

In 1994, VanderSloot bought a $1 million interest in the Snake River Cheese factory in Blackfoot, Idaho after Kraft Foods shuttered the factory. Vandersloot paid off a $2 million debt owed to the area's dairymen, and later brought in Beatrice Cheese, a subsidiary of ConAgra, to run the factory. In 1999, the company netted $278 million dollars in sales. In 2000, VanderSloot sold all of his interest in the company to Suprema Specialties, and in 2006, the factory, which by then had been renamed as the Blackfoot Cheese Company, was sold to Sartori Foods.

Therefore, I am again adding the new and improved information. The shorter version is not complete and does not give the full story as reported in the Source. See the very first paragraph above for more. Please comment below as to which version should be included in Misplaced Pages, or whatever else you have to say about improvements to this section. Thank you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:41, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

The issues with this change still stand. The meat of the issue is that the revised version makes a very bold claim (about VanderSloot paying $2 million to some farmers) that's attributed in the original source to some farmer of no apparent repute, and the detail is not backed up by any of the other sources that mentioned VanderSloot in connection with the cheese factory. Seems contentious, not to mention the issues with the source (an oddly political puff piece published this year, during campaign season, 6 years after VanderSloot sold the company). Rhode Island Red (talk) 02:32, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure why the Post Register shouldn't be considered a Reliable Source, so I have restored the version with the additional details. GeorgeLouis (talk) 03:28, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

So your approach is to completely ignore the discussion for more than 2 weeks and then just suddenly edit war instead? Your change was just undone. Your justification is blatantly misleading -- the edit had nothing to do with the Post-Register article. Rhode Island Red (talk) 04:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Just above there was a note stating "The meat of the issue is that the revised version makes a very bold claim (about VanderSloot paying $2 million to some farmers) that's attributed in the original source to some farmer of no apparent repute. . . . Seems contentious, not to mention the issues with the source. That's why I thought the problem lay with the sources. Anyway, it wouldn't hurt to flesh out this section just as the original Source did—with some explanation as to what happened, and when, and why. GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:48, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

All the issues raised above still stand. You haven't addressed any of them but just went ahead and started edit warring again. This has to stop. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:26, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

HI, I'd like to understand both your positions and offer a non-binding 3rd opinion. I shall recuse myself, if either of you have objections to me. If not, can we "take this slow" and both of you list your "major grounds" in not more than 10 lines each. RobertRosen (talk) 09:09, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I have reviewed, your debate. I find that User:Rhode Island Red's version is quite "encyclopedic" and should stand. Anything which has to be added to it must be backed by WP:RS sources and be WP:NPOV. I am here to assist both of you further, and especially GeorgeLouis RobertRosen (talk) 09:17, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

BTW, I don't think your source is a reliable one. It starts with the phrase Bitter foe of the gay rights movement' invested in plant. A classic ad-homimem tactic RobertRosen (talk) 09:21, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, RobertRosen. We could use your help in cleaning up this Section, and I, for one, appreciate your coming in here. But I think you are mistaken in your statement about the Reliability of the Capital Press, and I would like to point out that the headline above the story by staff writer John O'Connell sets off the words 'Bitter foe of the gay rights movement' in single quotes—which means it is somebody else's opinion—in this case, President Obama's Truth Team—and not that of the Capital Press. Could you explain a bit more about what makes you think that the Capital Press is not Reliable? Yours in Wikidom, GeorgeLouis (talk) 11:27, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi George, Firstly, you have to "trust" that I am neutral. I'm halfway around the globe from where you are, so I have no idea of what you blokes are fighting over. "RIR"'s approach is actually very similar to mine. He wants a clean uncluttered encyclopedia based on verifiable "fact". A "fact" is something which is either self-evident or widely accepted. You my friend, are trying to insert a "human interest" angle, with the "who, why, how" of what happened 6 years ago. This could be interpreted as "Original Research" and "POV pushing" and all those other Wiki Rules we all have at our fingertips. As of now you have only "The" source (an agro-industry website). Find some more, in any case you are a far more prolific editor at Wiipedia than I am anyway, so you probably know the ropes. I, OTH am a Misplaced Pages reader and I only want my Misplaced Pages to be accurate, factual and verifiable. Let some other editors get involved here and please don't edit war. RobertRosen (talk) 11:52, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I concur with your assessment Robert and have nothing else to add for the time being. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:35, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

OK. If neither of you have anything else to say on this for another 12 hours, I'll close this tag down at "3O", and you can stick with RIR's version and take it from there. RobertRosen (talk) 07:17, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Works for me. Thanks for taking the time. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:15, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Hold on a bit, please. I am not sure what you mean about "an agro-industry website." In my version I believe there are four references to the Post-Register and one to Capital Press, which is a legitimate news-gathering organization owned by the East Oregonian Publishing Co. Where is this "agro-industry website" of which you speak? Thanks. GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:34, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

It's pretty flippin' obvious which source he's referring to: the Capital Press article on which you based all of your contentious additions; the one that bears the banner headline "Capital Press -- The West's Ag Website...Your Source for AgriNews/Agribusiness Marketplace" -- the same article I criticized from the onset of this discussion. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:17, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I believe there is a time difference between the US and the UK, so I would really rather write when RobertRosen is ready to respond, right? GeorgeLouis (talk) 22:48, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I answered your question and the answer was self-evident from the beginning. It's obvious which Agri-industry website he was referring to; there was only one. You've raised no salient points so it's time to move on. Rhode Island Red (talk) 01:21, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

I concede we can use the existing paragraph to build upon, so I just beefed it up (sorry: bad pun!) with background as to the reason that VDS bought into the factory and what he did to improve its operation. I agree with Red that we can "move on." GeorgeLouis (talk) 13:47, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

What you did was completely ignore the consensus that was just established and you went ahead and inserted the contentious material again anyway. This is getting to be a very disruptive pattern. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:06, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

I did not see any consensus. IWhere is it? I see a Third Party Opinion that you agree with. That is not a consensus.GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:37, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The situation is pretty straightforward. Third party input was sought and received; that third-party stated “OK. If neither of you have anything else to say on this for another 12 hours, I'll close this tag down at "3O", and you can stick with RIR's version and take it from there.” The only comment you made subsequent to that was to ask the very odd question “where is this ‘agro-industry website’ of which you speak”, when in fact it was obvious which site he was referring to, and I clarified this non-issue for you.

So basically, you waited Robert out, ignored his input, and then inserted whatever you felt like back into the section. That’s not how the process is supposed to work and persisting in this sort of tendentious/disruptive editing is detrimental to the project, so please, respect the input you received and follow procedure. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:33, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Third-party advice was sought because there have been only two editors involved in this dispute. It was given and received. Unfortunately, neiher RobertRosen nor Rhode Island Red seems to be aware of what a trade publication is. Based upon that non-understanding, while I salute them both, their opinions lack substance, and of course I can't accept them. WP:Third opinions are not binding; that understanding is part the "procedure" which I am following. I now directly ask Rhode Island Red: Since there is no consensus, what do you suggest the next step should be? How about a WP:Request for comment? I'll leave it to you to choose the message board. But, please, don't just revert my additions to the paragraph because WP:Idontlikeit. Thanks. GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:49, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

My perception is that you continually ignore community input to the point where it is WP:DE. You can try to get a second third opinion, but that won't be binding either, so DR would be my choice. Any time you're ready. Rhode Island Red (talk)

I choose WP:RSN as the place to go. OK? GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

RS Notice Board

I asked the RS Notice Board if Capital Press is a Reliable Source for this article. See this posting. GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:18, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I just left yet another detailed comment on this article. Among the many other issues issues raised against the text proposed based on this source, the publisher whitewashed the article, removing key portion of politically-charged text subsequent to our highlighting them here. This alone is a sufficiently strong argument against the reliability of the source, and it raises potential issues of offsite campaigning. Additional comments on the matter can be left on RSN for now. Rhode Island Red (talk) 23:35, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

If you wish to charge any Misplaced Pages editor with any impropriety - AN/I is that-a-way. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:04, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Another straw man? I didn't charge any WP editors with "any impropriety", and I already know the mechanism for reporting infractions. I'm saying that the source was whitewashed and it does not meet WP:RS in the context for which it was proposed. If you have a comment about the content or the source, then I suggest you join in on the RfC. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:17, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Synthesis and sources

Discussion

I've updated the GLBT Section in two ways:

A. As the article has been built up over the months, it has developed into a good example of WP:Synthesis#Synthesis of published material that advances a position, which states: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." (Emphasis supplied.) I've removed such syntheses.

• "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made."
• "Contentious material about living persons (or recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."

None of the sources cited in the Section explicitly states that "controversial stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates," as the article has put it up to now.

B. Some of the sources cited are not Reliable.

Of the sources cited, only four are Reliable:

1. The LGBT Weekly story is an example of good journalism.
2. George Prentice is a journalist.
3. Stephanie Mencimer is a journalist. She did say that "VanderSloot has long been a controversial figure in Idaho politics, particularly when it comes to issues involving gays and lesbians," but she did not explictly state that "controversial stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates."
4. Trudy Ring is a journalist. But in this particular article, she wrote only that "Greenwald also reported that VanderSloot has often threatened journalists who write about him and outed a gay one," citing an opinion piece by Greenwald and doing no independent reporting of her own.

None of these four sources state explicitly that VanderSloot's "controversial stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates."

The following sources are not Reliable, except in a very limited sense:

1. The Glenn Greenwald article is not a WP:Reliable source because Greenwald is a "political commentator," as Salon stated on his page, and in this particular article is not writing as a journalist (pretty well nailed by Greenwald's non-journalist assertion that VS "has a history of virulent' 'anti-gay activism, including the spearheading of a despicable billboard campaign)."
2. Jodi-May Chang may be "an independent journalist who lives in Boise," as she puts it, but in this particular article she is giving her opinion "As one of those very Idahoans active on LGBT issues," not simply reporting the facts as a journalist would. Also, nowhere in his article does she state that VS's "controversial stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates."
3. Rachel Maddow is described in her WP article as an "American television host, political commentator, and author," not as a journalist.
4. Dean Miller is certainly a journalist. But this particular citation is to an opinion column, written in the first person, not to a news story that can be used as a Reliable Source.

And even Greenwald, Chang, Maddow and Miller do not explicitly state that VanderSloot's "controversial stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates."

Of course sources like the four just above can be used as WP:RS#Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves, but not if they involve "claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities)."

Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 13:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm inclined to revert everything you've done today as ridiculously tendentious and downright silly. First, you remove the sources that amount to journalists and gay rights advocates criticising VanderSloot's views/actions re gay rights. Then, you remove the statement about "criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates" because you don't perceive that that statement has any support in sources. There is nothing at all in RS saying that opinion pieces cannot be used to support statements about the opinions of the commentators -- in fact, RS says precisely the opposite. The point about self-published sources is entirely irrelevant given that these are not self-published sources. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:57, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

One may not agree with the reasoning, but it is hard to argue against the fact that the new version says what the Sources say and says it accurately, without editorializing and without violating WP:BLP. GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:59, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

As per Nomo's comment, there was no justifiable reason for deleting the sources or the text. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:44, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The reasons are: Pure synthesis and faulty sources. GeorgeLouis (talk) 19:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Except there is no synthesis and the sources are clearly WP:RS. Several sources have referred to VS as virulently anti-gay, so it would not be out of line if the article mentioned that. However, the current version of the BLP takes a much more conservative approach and merely says that his stances on gay issues have generated controversy -- perfectly reasonable. The repeated attempts at whitewashing are tendentious. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

A discussion on this topic has been opened at Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard#Frank L. VanderSloot. GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment

The questions are:

1. Based on the claim of Synthesis, should the original version or the revised version of the Section be used in the article from henceforth—of course with the ability to edit it as necessary?
2. Because the original "LGBT issues" Section adversely comments on a Living Person, should that section be immediately replaced with the revised section—of course with the ability to edit it as necessary?
3. Should the Sources identified as faulty or not germane be eliminated from the list of References?

The discussion is taking place at Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard#Frank L. VanderSloot.
GeorgeLouis (talk) 23:07, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Notices have been sent to all editors who have posted at Talk:Frank L. VanderSloot, except for User:Chum and change, who could not be located. GeorgeLouis (talk) 01:18, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Having no knowledge of this man I had to do some research on him before I decided whether or not to get involved. I've read the conversation so far, including on the other page, and I think I'm pretty well caught up. I believe that the section, as it currently exists on the page, is rather good. The first sentence is well supported by the articles linked(do we need so many for one sentence?) and is not original research. I believe that the list of people that condemned him and that he later threatened lawsuits against don't need to be as long either. One or two examples should suffice in each case. Ayzmo (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

The extensiveness of the "criticism" material appears to run counter to Misplaced Pages policy. BLPs are not supposed to show how evil a person is, but to present an WP:NPOV biography. Collect (talk) 16:26, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

That assertion goes well beyond the topic of this thread. Nonetheless, it's unclear what you are referring to as "criticism". The article reports that VanderSloot is a prominent financier of conservative causes and candidates (including attack ads); that he has taken stances on LGBT issues that have generated controversy; that he has threatened to sue some of his critics; that his company was targeted by various agencies (for misleading advertising, etc.). Those are not criticisms; they are merely facts -- facts that have been widely covered by reliable secondary sources. Based on these facts, some might consider VS to be a hero (you perhaps?) and others might see him as evil; but that's their call to make. The important thing is that the article does not make any such judgments, it merely reports the facts. That's the very definition of NPOV. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:51, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I am responding to the RFC, having no previous interest or knowledge of the subject. I'll respond on the LGBT point first. It seems unavoidable to me say anything other than the fact that Mr V has attracted significant hostility and criticism from LGBT communities. Whether that is justified or not is another matter. Mr V's own response, with his rebuttal of the criticisms, clearly demonstrates the fact that he was criticised. It seems to me that Mr V's decision to involve himself in a political campaign to change the law removing the right to have a gay marriage, i.e. removing a legal right, is more than likely to be the cause of the hostility. To ensure balance the article should be clear that Mr V does not believe that LGBT communities are the source of the criticism and hostility and that Mr V believe he has been targeted by President Obama, perhaps using the quote in the WSJ. On the first question, I don't have a particular problem with RIR's text but I do not think it is particularly well written or encyclopeadic. GL's text I am sorry to say reads rather like Mr V's advertorial. On the last question, I will not address this directly but rather I will raise a couple of issues that I hope will allow things to be moved forward. Who is Mr V? I think that we can all agree that Mr V is a major republican party donor who is a highly successful businessman. I presume that is why Mr V has an entry on wiki. It is difficult to write well concerning matters where there are strong personal views. RIR and GL are clearly at loggerheads. I hope these comments will allow the article to be completed. Isthisuseful (talk) 23:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate Isthisuseful's comment, but I had hoped to have an answer to to the three questions I asked above, which had to do with ] the material. I worded them in a carefully neutral way, which I am afraid has been very much misunderstood, and I apologize for my infelicity, if such it is, or for paucity of communication. As for the comment, "GL's text I am sorry to say reads rather like Mr V's advertorial" could be something I could fix if I knew just what text Isthisuseful is talking about. Can he or she provide a diff to the text? One again, thank you, Isthisuseful. GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit-warring

Some experienced editors are completely ignoring WP:3RR on this article. Rather than embarrass you with notices on your usertalk pages, I hope a reminder here will suffice. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• I've fully-protected the page for a week because of the edit warring. From my quick scan it didn't look like the participants were very close to finding a consensus version in the WP:ORN discussion - how about opening an RfC instead? If you think an RfC would be a good idea, it would probably be worth discussing its format here for a couple of days so that when the discussion proper opens it has a good chance of finding a consensus outcome. If you need any help with that, just give me a shout. I'll be watching the page for edit requests too, in case anyone has a request that isn't related to the dispute. Best — Mr. Stradivarius 13:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a Good Idea. See WP:Request for comment: "When starting an RfC, you must first decide if the primary issue is a user's conduct, in which case you use the Request for comment on user process; otherwise, use the process described below in the Request comment on articles, policies, or other non-user issues section." GeorgeLouis (talk) 13:44, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I think we would do best to treat this as a content dispute. Most often, when the content issues are sorted out the conduct issues tend to disappear. Do you have any suggestions for a question to ask in a potential RfC? I generally find that it is best to keep the question itself neutral and then put any evidence/arguments in the RfC body, although other structures can work as well. — Mr. Stradivarius 14:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

No, I hate to say it, but it is a user's conduct which is at issue. The content has been talked to death here. As for the questions, they can be found at Misplaced Pages:ORN#Frank_L._VanderSloot, but nobody has chimed in to answer them yet.

The questions are:

1. Based on the claim of Synthesis, should the original version or the revised version of the Section be used in the article from henceforth—of course with the ability to edit it as necessary?
2. Because the original "LGBT issues" Section adversely comments on a Living Person, should that section be immediately replaced with the revised section—of course with the ability to edit it as necessary?
3. Should the Sources identified as faulty or not germane be eliminated from the list of References?

Thank you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:16, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

There is also a question asked at Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Very_many_bad_sources. GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Improving GLBT section

I am proposing that, instead of making a blanket statement that VanderSloot has been accused by "journalists and gay-rights advocates" (which begs the question as to their numbers or their importance) that we instead specifically state who these accusers are, with citations to their criticisms.

Proposed version

Some have accused VanderSloot of outing Zuckerman, including journalist Jody Mae Chang (in an opinion column), Mother Jones magazine, television host and political commentator Rachel Maddow, Salon magazine, the editors of the Boise Weekly, and Zuckerman himself. In 2012, VanderSloot denied the charge, saying that Zuckerman had already posted his sexual orientation on a public website, that a local radio show and the community had been discussing the fact and that he, VanderSloot, had attempted to defend Zuckerman's motives; Post Register editor Dean Miller, however, wrote later that Zuckerman's sexual orientation had been known only by Zuckerman's family and a few of his close friends and colleagues.

Version as it exists now

VanderSloot was accused of outing Zuckerman. In 2012, VanderSloot denied the charge, saying that Zuckerman had already posted his sexual orientation on a public website, that a local radio show and the community had been discussing the fact and that he, VanderSloot, had attempted to defend Zuckerman's motives; Post Register editor Dean Miller, however, wrote later that Zuckerman's sexual orientation had been known only by Zuckerman's family and a few of his close friends and colleagues.

Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 01:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree that that's an improvement. It's more verbose, for one thing. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:45, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I was invited to comment on this article. My initial reaction is that the Zuckerman stuff seems to be worth including, but if you're going to include it, you should explain who 'Zuckerman' is and give his first name! Reading the article as it is now, I came across the references to 'Zuckerman' and thought 'who the hell is this guy?'. How about 'VanderSloot issued critical statements regarding a series of investigative articles by Peter Zuckerman in the Idaho Falls Post Register about incidents of child molestation by a Boy Scout director in the Grand Teton Council....' (italics added) Robofish (talk) 12:25, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

That's certainly a good point. Some people have been doing some deletions but not considering the consequences. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:31, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is longer, but it is also more accurate. (1) Instead of using the passive voice (which hides information), the revised version uses an active voice to tell who did the accusing. (2) It cites the person or the agency doing the accusing to the place where the accusing is done (the actual words of the accusation, in other words). GeorgeLouis (talk) 13:03, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the proposed version looks good. It's longer, but also much more specific. I also agree with Robofish and suggest adding Zuckerman's name to this sentence (edits shown in caps): "In 2006, VanderSloot issued critical statements regarding a series of investigative articles BY JOURNALIST PETER ZUCKERMAN in the Idaho Falls Post Register about incidents of child molestation by a Boy Scout director in the Grand Teton Council."HtownCat (talk) 15:06, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I restored that paragraph, but we still need a source for the Salon magazine claim. I have also explained who Zuckerman was, or is. GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:35, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

• RIR, did you mean to delete Zuckerman's name/affiliation? It's hard to imagine why. Please fix it, and be more careful with that sort of thing. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:38, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

No Nomo, I totally missed that. Thanks for pointing it out. I made a correction. Does that look OK? Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:21, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Now that the Block has been lifted, I restored the paragraph that HtownCat and I like, and I hope other editors will pay attention to Misplaced Pages:Revert only when necessary. Thanks so much. GeorgeLouis (talk) 01:36, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

edit request

The "FDA letter" paragraph was discussed at several noticeboards, and by consensus was found not to be properly in this BLP. See Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_51#Frank_L._VanderSloot

The case has gone on for ten days and should be closed by now, as partially resolved. There is a rough consensus not to include the paragraph on the 1997 warning letter, which was the original issue that was brought to DRN. The Rolling Stone and Slate articles don't explicitly mention the 1997 letter, but do refer to the controversy over Melaleuca's supplements. Inclusion of a more general statement describing the controversy will have to be discussed on the article's talk page, as DRN is not a substitute for talk page discussion.SGCM (talk) 18:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

What I was getting at is the common situation where there is a clear consensus against an editor's preferred version and a long history of him inserting it and being reverted (but not in the last 24 hours -- see WP:3RR). sometimes in such cases the editor with the minority opinion keeps trying to get it into the article again and again, each time arguing -- again -- for inclusion on the talk page and seeing -- again -- everyone else disagreeing. That's the sort of situation where WP:BRD isn't much help. WP:STICK may be of help, though... --Guy Macon (talk) 20:39, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Thus the paragraph:

Melaleuca has been targeted by Michigan regulators, the Idaho attorney general's office, and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for various marketing violations including "false and misleading" claims about its supplements, and the company has signed a consent decree agreeing to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.”

Should have the FDA charge removed, as well as the "false and misleading claims" quote removed, and the remaining sentence is simply SYNTH in the first place as no source catenates the claims. What should remain is that Melaleuca has been accused of making excessive claims about supplements. and delete the FDA letter primary source (from fda.gov per DRN consensus) Collect (talk) 12:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

An interesting idea, but the sentence "Melaleuca has been accused of making excessive claims about supplements" is not needed as an introduction to whatever will follow. It might be better to write: "On Jan. 3, 2011, agency XXXX accused Melaleuca of making YYYY statement about Melaleuca, to which the company responded ZZZZ and the result was QQQQ." In other words, details instead of a generality. GeorgeLouis (talk) 13:03, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

The aim is not perfection, but undoing what was described as edit war insertion of the section by one editor. As there was a "broad consensus" that the material was UNDUE, it seems proper to ask that such insertion be undone. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:34, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree the paragraph should be eliminated. Completely. GeorgeLouis (talk) 13:39, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I see no basis for your objections. The sources cited are reliable and the text in question is an accurate summary of what the sources said. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:35, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

DRN was pretty clear consensus, RIR -- time to drop the stick. Collect (talk) 17:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

DRN was about a different portion of text, sources, and context. It's blatantly misleading to claim that a consensus was established in relation to the current text and sources. Use of the template in this case was inappropriate because the requested edit is controversial and had not been through prior discussion. Again, the current text is an accurate summary and it's properly sourced. Time to stop the POV pushing, railroading, and whitewashing. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:47, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

But, Red, I checked one of the sources (Greenwald), and it said nothing about making excessive claims about supplements. I really didn't want to waste my time checking the others for a subject that most everybody has agreed to drop, or at least consented to dropping. That's what consensus means. GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Please spare me your "buts". Your edit request was not only inappropriate given the lack of prior discussion or any consensus supporting it, but it's completely without merit. Your comment about the Greenwald article (In Salon magazine) was just plain wrong -- the article did in fact refer to the FDA's involvement over deceptive supplement claims. Just so that you don't waste any more time with this red herring of a request, here is the text in the article, as it stands now, as well as the relevant excerpts from the sources that support it:

Current text:

• "Melaleuca has been targeted by Michigan regulators, the Idaho attorney general's office, and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for various marketing violations including "false and misleading" claims about its supplements, and the company has signed a consent decree agreeing to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.”

Supporting Excerpts:

• In 1991, Melaleuca entered into a voluntary compliance assurance with the Idaho attorney general's office, which found that "certain independent marketing executives of Melaleuca" had violated Idaho law…The company was ordered to pay the state $1,000 for the cost of the investigation…In 1992, the Michigan attorney general's office investigated Melaleuca's business practices…Melaleuca…signed an agreement with the state assuring that it would "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid," and that it would enforce its own policies to prevent distributors from referring to the FDA, FTC, or attorney general in its marketing materials…The Food and Drug Administration also has accused Melaleuca of deceiving consumers about some of its supplements—which the company claimed could treat clogged arteries or cure arthritis." (NB: The MJ article also links directly to the FDA warning letter, which is cited in the BLP)

• Melaleuca’s get-rich pitches have in the past caused Michigan regulators to take action, resulting in the company’s entering into a voluntary agreement to “not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid”‘; it entered into a separate voluntary agreement with the Idaho attorney general’s office, which found that “certain independent marketing executives of Melaleuca” had violated Idaho law; and the Food and Drug Administration previously accused Melaleuca of deceiving consumers about some of its supplements.

• "Not everyone has been so admiring of Melaleuca's business practices: The "wellness company" has been targeted by Michigan regulators, the Idaho attorney general's office, and the Food and Drug Administration for various marketing violations."

• The FDA has rebuked Melaleuca for making "false and misleading" claims about its supplements, and the company has signed a consent decree agreeing to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid."

• The FDA has rebuked Melaleuca for making ‘false and misleading’ claims about its supplements, and the company has signed a consent decree agreeing to ‘not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.’

Rhode Island Red (talk) 18:36, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, perhaps I misread the article. Sorry, Red. GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:39, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

You seem to have a chronic "misreading" problem that arises, curiously, whenever you try to POV push. Rhode Island Red (talk) 18:46, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Civility, Rhode Island Red; Assume Good Faith. And I suggest you stop edit warring, the article has already been put on SYSOP lock. Jeremy112233 (talk) 21:42, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

The drive-by comment (a banal civility/AGF/3RR lecture) isn't constructive Jeremy, and stalking me here, after having a previous disagreement on an unrelated page (Protandim) shows poor judgement. Appropriate steps were already taken to resolve the dispute, so you're a day late and a pound short, so to speak. FYI, it was I who just requested SYSOP lock. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

And the person warned by Admins to stop edit warring beforehand. Now stop being uncivil. Jeremy112233 (talk) 22:05, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Also, as you appear to suddenly have forgotten, I was editing this page before I found your shoddy work on the Protandim page. Be civil and assume good faith. Jeremy112233 (talk) 22:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Your claim is false Jeremy. You first edited Protandim on Sept 13/12, at which time I left you a warning for disruptive editing. Your first contribution on Vandersloots BLP was on Sept 18. The transition from your confronting me on Protandim to attacking me on Vandersloot is chronicled clearly on my Talk page, and it culminated in my Sept 18 report of your second round of edit warring and stalking to WP admin. So, suffice it to say, your excuse is dead wrong and my charge of stalking stands. My assumption of good faith is to not to call you a liar. BTW calling my work shoddy while admonishing me to be civil strikes me as more than a tad hypocritical. This entire issue is a distraction, so just recuse yourself. Rhode Island Red (talk) 22:36, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Abusive behavior is frowned upon with Misplaced Pages. You leave out that I've left several warnings on your talk page. Are you really this resistant to civil behaviour? I have no interest in your edits, only in the benefits of this page. My first correction was to correct your grammar (that gets tiresome, trust me), I then added a source that you had no problem with, and it appears you only cared when I began trying to actually help the page in terms of content, when you began edit-warring. I don't know why you've decided you have any authority on Misplaced Pages, but your warning is bound to turn into a block considering the high level of edit warring you've immediately resumed. If it's a distraction stop writing as if you think it's a competition. I have no time for such childishness. If you have a charge, address the appropriate channels, I'll assume you're just blustering if you don't ;) Jeremy112233 (talk) 22:59, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll repeat they key point one last time -- you stalked me here and you should recuse yourself. That aside, this thread is devolving, so keep it focused on content and take your petty vindictive bloviating elsewhere.

Getting back on track

When we start talking about the section that replaced the FDA letter, we can't seem to stay focused. Moving past the talking points, let’s look at what the company actually did wrong using the cited sources.

• The Rolling Stone piece doesn't have much information.
• The billmoyers.com piece only quotes the RollingStone piece and does not provide any new information. It should be removed.
• DailyFinance contains mostly references to other articles.
• The FDA letter was already taken to DRN and it was decided that it was not worth including.

The Salon piece actually cites a few interesting sources:

• The link that accompanies the content about the promise “not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid” was improperly added, which is frustrating.
• Likewise, this link appears dead
• An article in the Orlando Sentinel from 1992 finally provides some detail: "During the past year, Melaleuca has signed agreements with Idaho and Michigan in which it agreed to stop its distributors from promising prospective salespeople that they could make thousands of dollars a month selling the products. Officials in both states cleared the company's marketing plan and blamed renegade distributors for any problems." http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1992-09-04/business/9209040518_1_melaleuca-distributors-network-marketing
• There is also a link to a 1991 primary source from the Idaho state government that says that "certain independent marketing executives of Melaleuca have failed to comply with certain policies of Melaleuca, and that the actions of these independent marketing executives are in violation of Idaho law." There was no admission of guilt.

All in all, it seems that we can verifiably say that the company had problems with some of its sales force making outlandish claims in the early 1990s. The current section of the article does not give the reader the correct impression.

VanderSloot's website has a response to this issue, including a letter from the Idaho government. Andrewman327 (talk) 20:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Seems that you're saying that the sources cited are not reliable or do not support the text that's currently in the article -- neither of which is true. You say that the the Rolling Stone article "doesn't have much information". I'm not sure what this nebulous observation is supposed to mean, but in fact the Rolling Stone article contains enough information to back up the text in the BLP. The Bill Moyers article quotes the Rolling Stone article, which makes it a tertiary source -- highly desirable. Similarly, the Daily Finance article contains all the information necessary to support the text in the BLP. It's deceptive to say that it was previously decided that "the FDA letter was not worth including". The FDA letter was discussed in an entirely different context; however, it fits perfectly with the the revised text and several editors have already commented to that effect. The FDA letter was also referred to directly by two secondary sources cited in the BLP, so clearly it is appropriate to cite it.

All in all, what "we can verifiably say" is exactly what's currently in the article. I sincerely hope that hope you abandon this attempt to POV push and whitewash the article, as these pointless discussions are a waste of everyone's time. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:32, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not trying to push any POV, I want to figure out what really happened. Why did they enter into voluntary agreements? When did all of this happen? If the company is a scam, it's important to figure that out. Reading the Idaho Attorney General letter, I doubt that VanderSloot is a scam artist. It's not fair to throw out a bunch of allegations without any context, even if other websites with a clear POV have done so. Apply the same reasoning as you did for my claim that the ranch won "numerous awards". Did any of the events described in the current version of the article verifiably take place in the past few years? I'm following up with your summary of this edit. Andrew (talk) 16:19, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

If the tangential questions you raised above are important to you, you can get to work figuring out the answers and get back to us when/if you do. However, these questions have no bearing on the text or the reliable sources that are currently in the article. Rhode Island Red (talk) 19:22, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I finally figured out what the articles are referring to: two cases of multiple salespeople making illegal claims about the company in 1992. I adjusted the statement to reflect BLP. I also removed the FDA letter per noticeboard consensus; the mediator stated that it should only be included if it could be directly related to other company events. I'm not married to the wording but it's important to note that nothing that was referenced in your version of the section happened in this decade or the last. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrewman327 (talk • contribs) 19:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what you are talking about here with respect to illegal claims in 1992, but there was no consensus to remove all mention of the FDA and you edit was tendentious, so it was reverted. If you have an opinion on the matter or a proposal to make, do it here please. Rhode Island Red (talk) 19:44, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

The wording on the section is still vague and inaccurate. In 1992, two states investigated the company and concluded that it had done nothing wrong but that some of its contractors had said utterly stupid and misleading things. Company officials signed voluntary agreements that Melaleuca would do a better job of keeping house. In 1997, the FDA sent a warning letter that was already decided not to be important in this article unless it could be directly linked to something of relevance to VanderSloot. The burden is on whomever still wants to include it to prove that it belongs. It looks like the FDA never took any other action. In 2012, VanderSloot released a letter from the Idaho Attorney General that stated that that state has never conducted any formal investigation into the company. The current article makes it sound like investigations are frequent and ongoing, which is not true. It would be better to mention the referenced events as just that, events. Has anyone seen if VanderSloot was named in the voluntary agreements? I don't want to duplicate research. On another issue in this section, the "nine patents" figure is outdated. It either needs an "As of 2004" or nine should be replaced with a non-specific term. I've tried changing it several different ways but keep getting undone.Andrew (talk) 15:48, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Your first assertion is incorrect. According to the source in question the States had not “concluded that it (Melaleuca) had done nothing wrong”. Subsequent to being investigated, the company signed a consent decree to not engage in pyramid scheme marketing, and then the company’s marketing plan was cleared going forward (i.e. the company agreed to do “a better job of keeping house” as you said).

The detail about the FDA (i.e., that the company was using misleading advertising to sell their supplements) is supported by 5 sources. Inclusion of this detail is perfectly appropriate. I don’t know what to make of this alleged 2012 letter from VanderSloot that you spoke of, because you provided no evidence of its existence, but I don’t see how it would change matters even if it did exist. A primary self-published source from VanderSloot would most likely be useless. Even if it’s from the Idaho AG, then it has nothing to do with the FDAs action. I also dispute your claim that “the current article makes it sound like investigations are frequent and ongoing.” The article merely reports, very concisely, that “Melaleuca was also targeted by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for ‘false and misleading’ claims about its supplements, which is exactly what the sources reported.

With regard to the nine patents, that’s the number that sources referred to, and the mention of the patents is integrated into the text as it was in the original sources, indicating that the R&D team generated the 9 patents. Even if you were to go do a patent search and come up with a different number, that number wouldn't merit inclusion because it would be a product of your original research and not something that has been mentioned by secondary sources. There was also no need to mention the patents twice (as it had been prior to revision) because it gave undue weight. There's no reason for such undue focus on the matter of patents. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:15, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Three big things are important here:

1. All allegations occurred between 1991 and 1997 and should be labeled as such. Apply the same narrow tailoring that you're advocating for the ranch awards.

2. None of the sources you provided say that the company was convicted of any offense, let alone the actual subject of the BLP, VanderSloot. Therefore their violations are alleged.

3. As far as the patents are concerned, this is exactly why the powers that be created the As of tag. I've mentioned it before. Andrew (talk) 09:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

It looks like we're cross posting about the State action/FDA on 2 different threads. I have added a new comment in the FDA thread. so let's continue discussion about the FDA there. With regard to the "as of tag" the problem is that one of the sources cited is from 2012, so it would be inappropriate to add "as of 2004" given that there is no indication that the source was referring to any specific dates. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:49, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Citation overkill.

Just a note to recommend a fine essay at Misplaced Pages:Citation overkill, particularly the paragraph that states:

One cause of "citation overkill" is edit warring, which can lead to examples such as "Garphism is the study of ...". Extreme cases have seen fifteen or more footnotes after a single word, as an editor desperately tries to shore up his point and/or overall notability of the subject with extra citations, in the hope that his opponents will accept that there are reliable sources for his edit.

Using just one or two good citations at good points in the VanderSloot article instead of a host of them would really improve the piece. GeorgeLouis (talk) 22:03, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

You'll have to be more specific than that. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:34, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Well here is an example where some finer tuning could be applied:

Melaleuca has been targeted by Michigan regulators, the Idaho attorney general's office, and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for various marketing violations including "false and misleading" claims about its supplements, and the company has signed a consent decree agreeing to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.”

I have not looked at the sources. Do all of them give the same exact quote? and say exactly what this sentence says? I'm thinking its likely that one source is from Idaho, one from Michigan etc. If that is the case it would be good to have the specific source next to each specific phrase rather than having the reader hunt through the sources. At the same time I have to say that WP is built on reliable sources and its commendable that editors are providing good sourcing. So maybe some middle ground could be found going forward :-)-- — Keithbob • Talk • 00:53, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

In some cases multiple citations are used because the material deals with issues that could best be described as critical of the BLP subject, and thus the bar is set rather high to demonstrate prominent/widespread coverage -- the downside of pruning sources under the guise of addressing citation overkill is that later on someone will inevitably argue that the issue did not receive coverage significant enough to warrant inclusion. In other cases, it demonstrates uniformity of facts or opinion across a fairly broad spectrum of publications/media outlets. Pointless duplication has been avoided as far as I can see. If there are any obvious exceptions, let me know. Rhode Island Red (talk) 03:33, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Here's an example: "VanderSloot and Melaleuca were financial supporters of Concerned Citizens for Family Values, an organization that ran attack ads targeting incumbent Idaho Supreme Court Justice Cathy Silak during her 2000 re-election campaign against challenger Daniel T. Eismann.." Another: "In 2010 VanderSloot funded two political action committees (PACs) that launched last-minute attack ads against Idaho 2nd District Judge John Bradbury, a Democrat, during his electoral run for state Supreme Court against Republican incumbent Justice Roger Burdick. ." A third: "VanderSloot's stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates.." GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:56, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Those are merely examples of multiple citations; they are not examples of citation overkill. Rhode Island Red (talk) 03:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, so far as the last example goes, no, Keithbob, in fact NONE of those nine sources (as I remember, having read them a few weeks ago) state anything close to "VanderSloot's stances on certain issues of interest to the gay community have drawn criticism from journalists and gay rights advocates." Instead they are used to back up the WP:Synthesis in that section of the article. A discussion is still open on this problem (still unresolved) at Misplaced Pages:ORN#Frank_L._VanderSloot. Please join it if you can, everybody. Thank you.GeorgeLouis (talk) 01:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Please stay focused on the topic of the thread -- citation overkill. Given that you are already discussing your other issue elsewhere, it's counterproductive to stray off on that tangent here. Rhode Island Red (talk) 03:37, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Ranching

There are a few problems with this recent revision. First, the newly added text refers to “numerous awards” but it’s unclear what the awards were and how many of them there were (i.e., the term “numerous” is vague and subjective).

Second, the 2 sources cited were from 1995 and 1996, and the awards appear to be have been from a Utah state fair during that time – thus, the text seems to be overgeneralized and should probably instead refer to the specific awards and dates (e.g., something like “the ranch received awards for x,y,z at the Idaho State Fair in 1995-1996").

Third, the 2 sources cited are not available online, so any relevant text should be quoted here where it can be discussed so as to come up with a more suitable entry.

Lastly, the text includes a quote about the ranch’s mission statement. I had previously made an edit so that this would be attributed it to the proper source – i.e. it was an unofficial statement from the ranch’s manager rather than an official statement from the ranch/owner itself. This was reverted for some reason which was not explained in the edit summary. I don’t even think the statement is noteworthy; it describes a promotional tag line; the more encyclopedic approach would be to explain what the ranch does, not what their slogan is. Nonetheless, if the statement is to be included (and I don’t think it should), it would have to be properly attributed.

I have reverted the edit pending resolution of these outstanding issues here on the Talk page. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

If there are only 2-3 awards then it would be more accurate to state the specific awards and avoid the word 'numerous' and a request for quotes from the sources seems reasonable. As for the mission statement. I think we should remember that the article is about FLV and at some point details about his ranch or business etc may become tangential. But that will need to be assessed on a case by case basis. Just some food for thought.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:56, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

We're on the same page. Let's see how it plays out. Rhode Island Red (talk) 22:03, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

The mission statement relates to VanderSloot based on the context of the quote in a source that was removed: "Brown said VanderSloot is intimately involved in the ranch, establishing its mission as 'providing ranchers in the Intermountain West with the best genetics at an affordable price.'" It demonstrates that VanderSloot is actively involved in this ranch and justifies why this section should be in the article.

The sources I referenced that were removed specifically named 21 awards won by the ranch. I could keep digging and find similar awards from other years and events, but three reliable sources is more than enough for one sentence. The articles are too long to post in their entirety but here are relevant excerpts. I could create a table that lists them, but I think it's better to consolidate them. I'm not worried about copyright in this case because the information is freely available:

• "UTAH STATE FAIR SALUTES WINNERS" Piedmontese. Champion Heifer Calf, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls. Reserve Champion Heifer Calf, Morning Star Farms, Albion, Idaho. Champion Senior Female Morning Star Farms, Albion, Idaho. Reserve Champion Senior Female, Enghsaspen Wood Piedmontes, Salt Lake City. Grand Champion Female, Morning Star Farms, Albion, Idaho. Reserve Grand Champion Female, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls. Reserve Champion Bull Calf, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls. Champion Senior Bull, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls. Reserve Champion Senior Bull, Enghsaspen Wood Piedmontes, Salt Lake City. Reserve Grand Champion Bull, Enghsaspen Wood Piedmontes, Salt Lake City.

• "Cream of the Crop: This Year's Roundup of Utah State Fair Winners; More State Fair Winners" PIEDMONTESE -- Champion heifer calf, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; reserve champion heifer calf, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; champion senior female, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; reserve champion senior female, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; grand champion female, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; reserve grand champion female, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; champion bull calf, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; reserve champion bull calf, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; champion senior bull, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; reserve champion senior bull, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; grand champion bull, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; reserve grand champion bull, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; premier exhibitor, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho; premier breeder, Riverbend Ranch, Idaho Falls, Idaho.

• "From Horses to Horticulture" Piedmontese -- Grand champion female, Riverbend Ranch, St. Anthony, Idaho; reserve grand champion female, Riverbend Ranch, St. Anthony, Idaho; grand champion bull, Aspenwood Ranch, Salt Lake City; reserve grand champion bull, Riverbend Ranch, St. Anthony, Idaho.

Andrew (talk) 16:19, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

If there is a reliable source that says the ranch received 21 awards than that qualifies for the term "numerous" IMO. As for relevance.. if FLV is the owner of the ranch then I think its OK to say he owns an award winning ranch. More details about the ranch such as its history, profits and losses, staff changes etc. would generally be off topic IMO. Not saying anyone is proposing that, just mentioning it as a possible caution for future additions. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:18, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Jody May-Chang

Is an independent blogger - her "Reader's Opinion" in the newspaper is just that - and is not a relaible source, nor are her self-published writings reliable sources for any WP:BLP per WP:SPS. Collect (talk) 06:02, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Chang's article is not a self-published work. Furthermore, she was referred to directly by two of the secondary sources. Please stop trying to whitewash the article. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:32, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

"Reader's Opinion" means it is an opinion from a reader. No different from a "letter to the editor" in fact, which is disallowed as a source. And "may-chang.com" is clearly an SPS, and is clearly a blog. I found no sign of her being more than that, and the fact she herself edited this article is a troubling sign. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:15, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

If the matter of VS being accused of outing Zuckerman were being reported here as fact, you would have a point. But since we're representing it as an accusation from various specified people, there is no difficulty in using an article published in the newspaper's opinion section to support the assertion that Jody May Chang accused VS of outing Zuckerman. The fact that her piece was cited by two other reliable sources reinforces the case for treating it this way. The fact that the passage was rewritten to specify the identities of the individuals (avoiding passive voice, as previously) also supports including it. I would, however, exclude may-chang.com as a source here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:00, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

The use of a letter to the editor ("Reader's opinion") fails WP:RS. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:10, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree fully with Nomo's assessment. Rhode Island Red (talk) 18:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

This clearly fails WP:RS. As Collect correctly noted it is a letter to the editor and therfore not usable as a reliable source. That Rachel Maddow (big suprise) and Salon (another big suprise) would reference the LOE is of no significance. Arzel (talk) 20:15, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

No, it does not clearly fail WP:RS. Read Nomo's explanation as to why it does not. Your snide comments about Maddow and Salon do not negate the fact that those are WP:RS and that they establish the connection with Chang. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:30, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Letters to the editor are not reliable sources for any claims as they are not reliable sources per WP:RS. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:36, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

As Nomo explained, the source (a newspaper op-ed) is being cited as evidence of what the author (Jody May-Chang) stated. This is perfectly acceptable according to WP:NEWSORG and WP:RSOPINION, and it's backed up by two additional secondary sources. No reason at all to push for such tendentious editing. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:17, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Considering that the letter writer doesn't appear notable enough to even have a wikipedia article about them, I have to doubt their opinions being notable enough to include in a BLP. Arkon (talk) 01:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Whether or not someone has a WP bio has never been a yardstick for assessing whether or not a source meets WP:RS. The May-Chang connection was mentioned by two other secondary sources, so you're really grasping st straws there. Rhode Island Red (talk) 04:32, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Why should wikipedia be including the views of this person? That's the part you haven't really addressed. Arkon (talk) 05:35, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Letters to the editor may be (marginally) allowable for indication of the writer's opinion, if the writer or opinion is otherwise notable; but it was being used to support an alleged statement of fact. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:19, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Funny, I didn't even notice the 2 instances you just fixed. I fully agree with those changes. The prior argument was about an instance in which the source was being used to back up a statement by the author and would be allowable as per NEWSORG and RSOPINION. Rhode Island Red (talk) 04:32, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Collect is correct that opinion pieces should not be used as sources for biographies of living persons or for other articles for that matter. If a news story reported this then it would be a reliable secondary source and could establish weight and provide a reason for inclusion. While that policy may exclude many good commentaries, the upside is that it excludes may bad ones. TFD (talk) 06:18, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Easily resolved, I think: if other sources note that Chang asserted VS outed Zuckerman, just cite those other sources to support text re what Chang asserted. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:46, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

TFD, WP:NEWSORG and WP:RSOPINION seem to make it clear that opinion pieces are not precluded, especially not when they are used in the same narrow context as in the case of Jody May Chang (ie, backing up a statement by the author). That aside, the secondary sources mentioning Chang do in fact establish that this merits inclusion. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:20, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

No they do not. Those are highly partisan sources and do not substantiate the claim, they simply repeat the claim. Arzel (talk) 15:21, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Is there a URL for the source in question? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:32, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Providing quote for Katrina aid

Below is the requested quote for the Philanthropy section:

Melaleuca Inc. President Frank VanderSloot, meanwhile, flew to Baton Rouge during the weekend to drop off sup-plies at several shelters.

"We took some food, some snacks and things," he said. "They didn't last long." He was flying back home Tuesday with some extra passengers -- three families.

VanderSloot said he was taking one -- an elderly couple, their granddaughter and two Pomeranians -- to stay with relatives in Salt Lake City. Another family needed transportation to San Diego, so he gave them a ride to Utah and was trying to find a way to get them from Salt Lake City to California. The third family is coming to Idaho Falls with VanderSloot, who said he'd give them a job and allow them to stay with him as long as they needed to stay.

HtownCat (talk) 21:29, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Seems like rather silly content to include; not the least bit encyclopedic. Find a source from the family's POV and maybe there will be something there worth mentioning. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:33, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I would agree its undue weight to go into any details but a quick sentence that that he flew to BR, dropped off supplies and helped a few families with their transport/housing issues would be OK.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:52, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. Will edit accordingly. HtownCat (talk) 21:25, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Political campaign financing: Two sentences removed.

The section stated that "VanderSloot and Melaleuca were financial supporters of Concerned Citizens for Family Values," but none of the four sources at the end of that sentence makes such a statement. The closest is the Eamon Murphy piece from AOL Daily Finance, which says that the CCFV was "one of VanderSloot's favorite causes," but not that VDS or ML gave money. The Trilhaase piece is clearly labeled: "The editorial posted here is provided by permission of its original publisher and does not necessarily reflect the views of Idaho Public Television," and thus is not a Reliable Source.

As for the Kyle Cheek and Martin Mayer books, there is no mention of VanderSloot in either of them. and .

Because of the lack of Reliable Sources in these two sentences, I am removing them from the article. If I am mistaken in my research, just respond here. Thank you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 03:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Are you blind or just being obstructive as usual? The very first of the references you deleted (Salon) says: "Concerned Citizens for Family Values, to which Melaleuca and VanderSloot were large donors". Please stop wasting everyone's time with this pointless griping and tendentious editing. Rhode Island Red (talk) 04:09, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with being blind. http://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_blind_people#Writers GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:14, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

You are right; I missed that reference, but the Salon article by Glenn Greenwald specifically links to an opinion piece at http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/meddle-lunka/Content?oid=2239914, titled "Meddle-Lunka," by Bill Cope. Greenwald's article is certainly an Op-ed, and there is not a hint of solid Shoe-leather reporting or objectivity in there at all. And what about the other sources? I checked them all. As I mentioned, anybody can correct me here. But nicely, please. GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

I can't even dignify that with a response, it's so ridiculous. Stop being disruptive please. Rhode Island Red (talk) 04:36, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Although it is often difficult when editing a contentious article, we should always assume good faith, remain civil and be patient with each other. Its also important to stay on the topic of content and avoid making derogatory comments about editor behavior.... If the first source is valid and supports the cited text then that's OK. However if other sources at the end of the sentence do not specifically support the WP article text than they should be removed lest they mislead our readers. If one, or some are in the grey zone then we can discuss those sources here and gain consensus.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:10, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

I deleted the two sentences again, for the reasons given above. GeorgeLouis (talk) 14:14, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

That's unfortunate. You deleted it once already today and then did it again after Nomo reverted your deletion. Did you miss the part where KeithBob said "discuss those sources here and gain consensus". Was that asking too much? Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:13, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

George, I think you might have missed the fact that I did not merely revert, I added a new source (from Forbes) that won't cause you any concern. Possibly there is still a need to re-word the passage so that it conforms to the sources we have. But I think it was inappropriate for you simply to undo my edit; again my guess is that you didn't check it closely enough. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:21, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, and by the way, I think a case could be made that you're both currently at the limit of 3RR on this article. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:23, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

I apologize, Nomo, if I made a mistaken edit. (1) I have to admit that this editing exercise is becoming so complicated that I can't find the exact edit you are referring to. Can you provide a diff? (2) Also, do you think it is OK to retain controversial material in a BLP if the Sources are challenged (even if wrongly)? GeorgeLouis (talk) 17:35, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

It's the edit you reverted, ; note the new source (already pointed out to you above) and the slight but significant change in wording. I don't see anything controversial there. Again, if you have specific concerns then propose a revision that doesn't involve wholesale deletion. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:14, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Strassel’s POV Problem

The recent edits highlighting WSJ Strassel’s pernicious attacks on the president are far from NPOV. When I first added the section about the Obama campaign team including VandeSloot on its list of high-profile big money Romney donors, I included a link to Strassel’s article (among several others) but I purposely avoided highlighting any of Strassel’s politically-charged opinion-based accusations, instead favoring text and sources that offered a more balanced middle-of-the-road factual account of the events. It is a fact that a list of donors was published; it is not a fact that the list is an “enemies list” as Strassel and FOX News contended.

It is a fact that VanderSloot is being audited by the IRS, but it’s not a fact that the audit was retributive, as right-wing talking heads like Strassel, Hannity, and FOX News alleged. It is also a fact that Strassel’s attack was criticized by several journalists including (but not limited to) Rachel Maddow. Lots of sources covered these events in a neutral manner (reporting just the facts without the accusations), so giving undue weight to the hysterical right-wing sources is inappropriate (i.e, it is a biased minority opinion). Clearly, the recent edits are problematic with respect to NPOV and undue weight. The previous version was well balanced and avoided this POV quagmire, while at the same time giving more than sufficient weight to VanderSloot's public comments about the events. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:01, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

RIR, I would let this one go. The text in question is not written in any sort of dramatic language. If there are several sources that adopt the view that the audit is retributive, then even if it's a minority view it deserves to be covered to a limit extent. Not the thing to edit-war over, in my view -- especially given the continued attempts to nail you at 3rrn. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:35, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Referring to an enemies list, saying that VS had a target on his back, and that the IRS audit was politically motivated is extremely dramatic language. It is an extreme viewpoint (espoused by right-wing sources like Hannity, FOX news, and Strassel) that has been countered by several other sources as baseless. If it's to be included at all, it needs to be counterbalanced with the opposing viewpoints. VanderSloot claims that he's a victim because he's a private citizen. Other sources argue that his assertion was unfounded and he was attempting to play the victim for political purposes -- i.e., he's not a "private citizen" per se -- he's Romney's campaign finance manager. The right wing sources refer to an "enemies list". This too is a biased accusation. It is merely a list of major donors put forth in the interest of transparency; not a list of "enemies". VS also alleges that the IRS targeted him unfairly because he was a Romney donor. That too is a baseless accusation. This issues needs to be handled in a balanced manner or removed altogether. What I object to most is that the reversion was undone twice and in both instances, the editors bypassed the Talk page and addressed none of the issues. That's not how things are supposed to be done here. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll also add that Strassel's article was an op-ed piece -- exactly the type of source that has generated major outcries from editors like George Louis and Collect. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:56, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

This attack against VanderSloot has been noted by several. Additionally, the other verbage uses WP voice to make statements against VanderSloot which are clearly from the Obama campaign, a serious BLP issue. Arzel (talk) 21:01, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what that was supposed to mean. Could you please expound on that a bit more. The original version of the text in question described all of the key details about the events in a very evenhanded and factual manner and was based on a broad cross-sample of sources that had written about the subject. The revised version introduced all sorts of baseless conjecture and accusations based on an op-ed piece by Strassel, which represented the POV of a very small group of partisan right-wing sources. Your reply did not address any of the key issues at stake, like NPOV, undue weight, and the use of op-ed in a BLP. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:43, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Nomo, I appreciate that you responded to the fact that the Strassel accusations were based on an op-ed piece and deleted a portion of the offending text. However, the larger problems still remain: the article gives extraordinarily undue weight to a particularly biased and non-represntative POV based on Strassel’s op-ed. The offenses in the revised text occur in two places; the first being the line:

The campaign website was labeled the president’s “enemies list” by the media and Republican politicians.

This “enemies list” accusation is an absurdly partisan opinion, one not rooted in fact, and it was countered by other journalists, as I already pointed out, and these sources are not mentioned. Also, notice that the two citations to support the statement from "the media" and "Republican politicians" are (1) Strassel’s op-ed, and (2) an unattributed statement based on a source that cannot be readily verified (i.e., the alleged ABC report does not appear to be an online source, which is particularly problematic for such a contentious statement). The sourcing here is terrible and the statement is contentious, non-neutral, and arguably WP:FRINGE. In contrast, the sources that were used to construct the original version of the text were carefully selected to be neutral and well balanced; they included local press reports (Idaho Press-Tribune, Idaho Statesman) and a good cross sampling of perspectives (NPR, USA Today, and even FOX News). None were op-eds.

Bear in mind that the WP Project Conservatism crew (eg, GeorgeLouis, Collect, Andrewman327) have campaigned relentlessly over the last couple months for the exclusion of op-ed pieces in this article on the basis that they violate WP policy (although in most of those instances, the sources had been cited in compliance with WP:NEWSORG and WP:RSOPINION). So the current issues are exacerbated by the hypocrisy of arguing strenuously for the exclusion of op-eds when they have a critical slant, but arguing strenuously in their favor when they have a positive slant for VanderSloot. To make matters worse, Strassel is mentioned a second time, and given an entire paragraph and the final word in the section. All 3 sources cited were op-eds by Strassel:

The Wall Street Journal published a series of articles criticizing the audits and treatment of VanderSloot and other Romney campaign donors.

Not only does this violate op-ed policy but the violation of undue weight is unmistakable; not only because of the undue prominence given to Strassel, but also the lack of balance with other sources that criticized Strassel for inventing a conspiratorial-type theory and inappropriately portraying VanderSloot as a victim. The responses condemning Strassel’s biased reporting appeared not only in conventional news reports but also in numerous op-eds. When I constructed the section I purposely avoided stepping into this quagmire for a reason, and I was very careful to include balanced coverage, even addressing that VanderSloot felt he was targeted unfairly. But the he-said/she-said opinion-based arguments are tangential, non-encyclopedic, and a distraction from the key facts. If we do decide to go there anyway, despite the reasons why we shouldn't, then it’s essential that the text be balanced and not focused so much on Strassel’s op eds. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:34, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

The sentence in question here does not mention Strassel, nor any details about her theory. The fact that the WSJ published three articles on this issue is noteworthy. If we're going to use Salon, we should allow Strassel via WSJ. If we are going to include a quote from the campaign website that refers to him as "litigious, combative" etc., then we should certainly include some of the criticism directed at the campaign for the list.HtownCat (talk) 22:08, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

That's misleading. It doesn't matter whether or not Strassel's name is explicitly mentioned; the text in question relies exclusively on Strassel's op-ed pieces -- the articles are clearly labeled op-ed. It's a fringe partisan POV and a scurrilous accusation against the President, the inclusion of which does nothing to improve VanderSloot's BLP. It is given extreme undue weight (cited in two different sections and given the final word in the section). There are multiple neutral sources that cover the meat of the story without resorting to partisan rhetoric and ad hominems. Clearly, there is no support for the statement attributed to "the media and Republican politicians". I have pointed out multiple sources that disputed and criticized Strassel's account and yet none of them were cited. Lastly, this isn't a trade and Salon has nothing to do with this thread, so focus on the matter at hand please. The inclusion of this text is indefensible on several counts -- it violates the rules on op-eds, undue weight, attribution, balance, and NPOV. You've provided no reasonable defense because there is no reasonable defense. Rhode Island Red (talk) 22:42, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

As long as the opinions are properly cited as opinions, there is no reason to excise them. NPOV refers to balance of all sources in an entire article - it does not require individual opinions to be "neutral" and, as a strnage fact, most opinions in this world are not neutral. What we do is note that they are opinions. I would further note that some of the sources currently used in this article are, in fact, partisan and opposed to VdS. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:12, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

The Wall Street Journal editorial page is a major source and being featured on it is a notable event in and of itself. Besides that, I read the entire reference list and found that if we remove the WSJ piece we'd also have to remove many other sources. I'm not suggesting that we should remove all of these sources, but I'm providing a context for why it would be silly to pull WSJ.

POV issues of existing sources

Looking through the references list, there are several sources that have strong point of view bias. Here are Misplaced Pages descriptions of several of them:

• "Salon is a progressive liberal online magazine..."

• "Rolling Stone... is devoted to music, liberal politics, and popular culture."

• "Mother Jones (abbreviated MoJo) is a politically liberal American magazine..."

Op-Eds and editorials already on the page

Additionally, there are several op-eds and editorials cited, here are only three of them:

• "VanderSloot won Supreme Court race," is an editorial with a disclaimer at the bottom saying that it is not necessarily the opinion of the publisher.

• Same thing with If you buy radio stations, who needs attack ads?

• Best Multiple Personalities 2012 is a Boise Weekly editorial.

Andrew (talk) 23:39, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

This isn't a hostage negotiation. The merits of the sources and text in this thread are a standalone issue. The specific instances in which reporting by Salon, Rolling Stone, and Mother Jones are cited have already been discussed at length. It's counterproductive to re-litigate previously resolved issues, especially on this thread.

That aside, your argument consists solely of "The Wall Street Journal editorial page is a major source and being featured on it is a notable event in and of itself". I'm not exactly sure what that's supposed to mean, but it addresses precisely none of the issues I raised above. No one is arguing that the general event (ie, the campaign team's inclusion of Vandersloot's name on a list of top Romney donors) in the section isn't notable; quite the opposite. I wrote the entry about the event, so obviously I recognize its notability. It's not even an issue of citing an op-ed per se (which can be allowable under limited circumstances). The point is that the event was covered by multiple independent non-op-ed sources and they handled it in an even-handed manner without politicizing the issue and turning it into a partisan pre-election slag-fest. What you are arguing for is to outweigh neutral, independent, factual reporting with the shrill op-ed-based non-factual opinion of a partisan talking head. This would be one of the the worst forms of abuse of an op-ed, and it stands in marked contrast with the false parallels you alluded to above.

As I've shown several times already, there are other sources that denounced Strassel's op-eds, so fair balance would require that they be given equal weight, and by then the section will have degenerated into a he-said/she-said op-ed war that simply doesn't merit inclusion in an encyclopedia. If that line were to be crossed, then the matter would need to be covered fairly, yet I see no concern on your part about addressing WP:BALANCE, not to mention the other even more critical issues.

As for the attempt to include "The campaign website was labeled the president’s “enemies list” by the media and Republican politicians", the core issue is that the "enemies list" accusation is not based on anything factual. The list of top Romney donors wasn't published as an "enemies list"; it's purely a label that reflects the politically motivated spin-doctoring of a partisan pundit minority, so really, who gives a damn if they labeled it an enemies list. A secondary issue is that it's not even attributed properly -- it's an egregious misrepresentation to say that it was "the media" and "(nameless) Republican politicians" that labeled the list as such. The original and stable version of the section describes in a neutral manner that VanderSloot felt he was being targeted unfairly and that he took to the airwaves to air his grievances (and used that as an opportunity to solicit more donations for Romney's campaign). That's more than sufficient and it reflects what mainstream sources reported. There's no need to add that VS said "I knew it was like taping a target to my back." VanderSloot portrays himself as a victim, but WP is not the place to further that agenda.

The proposed addition of "The Wall Street Journal published a series of articles criticizing the audits and treatment of VanderSloot" again begs the question "so what"? It doesn't have enough meat to stand on its own because it doesn't describe the basis for the criticism, and there's no way that WP is going to report some baseless scurrilous accusations by Strassel -- based on no evidence whatsoever -- that the audits were retributive or that the President had anything to do with them. That VanderSloot is being audited is a fact; that the audits were retributive is not a fact; it's not even a well-founded opinion; it's not even a compelling conspiracy theory. WP doesn't report idle gossip. This sort of inappropriate use of an op-ed stands in marked contrast with other quotes in the article that reflect obvious facts (supported by multiple sources), such as VanderSloot being a high-profile big-money donor and vocal advocate of conservative politicians and causes, or that he has taken controversial stands on LGBT issues. Furthermore, in those instances, the comments were directed at VanderSloot, whereas in this case the comments are directed at the President, which adds insult to injury because it's tangential and not directly relevant to VanderSloot. Rhode Island Red (talk) 02:12, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Great - you show above exactly why the WSJ material belongs in this BLP. Better evidence sould not be found. And I suggest at this point consensus is for inclusion of that material. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Your threadbare comment completely ignored the issues raised and it's emblematic of WP:TAGTEAM. Show some respect for the "D" in WP:BRD and don't claim consensus where none exists. You might want to read WP:CON, which says:

"In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing documentation in the project namespace. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever. Limit talk page discussions to discussion of sources, article focus, and policy. The obligation on talk pages is to explain why an addition, change, or removal improves the article, and hence the encyclopedia. Other considerations are secondary. This obligation applies to all editors: consensus can be assumed if editors stop responding to talk page discussions, and editors who ignore talk page discussions yet continue to edit in or revert disputed material may be guilty of disruptive editing and incur sanctions." Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:22, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

If other Op Ed articles are currently being cited in the article then it seems only fair to allow one in this instance also as long as there is an inline attribution, so as not to mislead the reader into thinking that this is the voice of the WSJ. If it is the opinion of one writer, without editorial oversight, then that must be made clear. For example. In a series of opinion pieces written by Strassel of the WSJ etc...... So that's an improvement that needs to be made in my opinion. At the same time we cannot, as editors, discount a source because we feel the opinion is baseless. We state who the opinion is from, the name of the reliable source publication, and let the reader decide if it has any merit.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:06, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Your suggestion is not unreasonable, but there are still the issues of WP:UNDUE and WP:BALANCE to address, as outlined above. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:26, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Keithbob's suggestion here for framing the info as an opinion piece, but one of the WSJ sources that I cited wasn't by Strassel. The tone is a bit less accusatory than the Strassel articles, although it's presenting similar information: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304203604577397031654422966.html. So perhaps we could lead into the presented information with "Several opinion pieces published by the Wall Street Journal..." HtownCat (talk) 22:52, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Better to count up the opinion pieces and use the exact figure. GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:03, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Just be aware, as I pointed out already, that if you propose to mention these muckraking op-eds, they will have to be balanced by other sources that objected strongly to Strassel's dirt throwing accusations. That's going to open up a Pandora's box, but if you want go there, WP:BALANCE must be respected. Also it did not go unnoticed that the current position you are taking contradicts every instance in which you loudly protested the use of anything remotely resembling an op-ed (even though those specific instances were compliant with policy and ultimately deemed appropriate during noticeboard discussions). The hypocrisy is unmistakable and unfortunate. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:30, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I added the sentence. Rhode Island Red, if you already have the sources that object to Strassel, by all means add them for balance. HtownCat (talk) 15:29, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Done. I still think that the newly added portion is shallow and unencyclopedic because it doesn't discuss the nature of the criticism (which is what really matters) and leaves innuendo hanging in the air, but at least, since I have added additional sources, it is now balanced. It would have been better had the new text been first proposed here on the Talk page, since there is an ongoing active discussion taking place, but I've come to realize that such a commonsense approach (WP:BRD) is not the MO for some editors here. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:19, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Four citations removed

Remove four citations

In accordance with a suggestion by User:Rhode Island Red, here "(Undid revision 522595590 by GeorgeLouis (talk)--Please stop removing sources. If you have issues, raise them on the Talk page)," I note that there are four sources that do not refer to the issues mentioned in the paragraph to which they are attached. I believe these Sources should be removed as violative of wp:Sources, and I note that, according to that Policy, "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a reliable source that directly supports the material." There are other sources, good ones, which I left in, that support the statements in the paragraph. Any comments? GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:57, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The sources you removed *do* refer to the issues mentioned in the paragraph. The fact that you think they don't is, um, confusing. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:35, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

You know, I respect your opinion, but really, I checked the sources on two different occasions, and those that I removed say nothing about VanderSloot and Melaleuca being financial supporters of Concerned Citizens for Family Values, an organization that ran ads targeting incumbent Idaho Supreme Court Justice Cathy Silak during her 2000 re-election campaign against challenger Daniel T. Eismann. You know that I am perfectly willing to admit any mistakes I have made, but in this case I have not made any. (Or, if I have, just find the statements within those four citations and let me know what they are, and I will grovel.) GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:06, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, these continued cagey attempts to delete the references are disruptive. The sources all mention that VanderSloot was a financial supporter of CCFV; VanderSloot was the only financial supporter of CCFV. Your continued deletion of the sources is disruptive. If you have a suggestion to make, make it here, but please stop the edit warring. Rhode Island Red (talk) 06:48, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, Red, you eyes are sharper than mine if you can see something in those four Citations that I can't see. For the benefit of all the editors, can you pull up those references and paste them here? Thanks. GeorgeLouis (talk) 03:46, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Red actually did find the source for one of the citations I had missed. It was on Screen 2 of the cited source, which I didn't check because I didn't know that there was a Screen 2. Apologies, Red. GeorgeLouis (talk) 17:12, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Remove two citations and move one of them

For the third time, I checked the four citations in question, referring to the definition of the Concerned Citizens for Family Values as "an organization that ran ads targeting incumbent Idaho Supreme Court Justice Cathy Silak during her 2000 re-election campaign against challenger Daniel T. Eismann." This is what I found: (1) The Berman-Forbes citation makes no reference to Concerned Citizens for Family Values, nor to the Silak or Eismann campaigns, thus I deleted it. (2) The Greenwald-Salon piece stated that ML and VS were "large donors" to CCFV (so it is a good source for the phrase just above) but did not mention Silak or Eismann, so I deleted it as a source for this particular phrase. (3) The Murphy piece says that CCFV was one of VS's "favorite causes," so that one might be good for the phrase just above, but not for this one, so I moved it to point to a more congenial part of the article. (4) The Triilhaase-Lewiston Morning Tribune piece mentions CCFV, Silak and Eismann in a general sense, so I can stretch a point and accept that one. (5) The Jim Fisher-LMT source mentions Silak but not Eismann and says that the advertising in question was financed by the CCFV, so, again stretching the point, I suppose that one can also be used as a source. Note: There may be more problems with sources in this Subsection, so I am not saying this is my Last Word on the matter. GeorgeLouis (talk) 22:19, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Your assertion that the Forbes article "makes no reference to Concerned Citizens for Family Values" is glaringly false. You previously made a similar false assertion about this text as a justification for deletion. Are you even reading the articles before you hit the delete button? Nomo already reverted you once on this , so I think it would be best to heed his suggestion: "if you have specific concerns then propose a revision that doesn't involve wholesale deletion."

RIR, I point you to the policy: Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith, and I hope for your sake and the sake of the article that you will follow it. Yes, I have read the articles (three times, very carefully), and I have bent over backwards to accept some vague relation between the citation and the text, but in these two citations (Berman-Forbes and Greenwald-Salon) there simply is no connection at all to the phrase in question. Since this is a BLP, unfounded or poor citations simply have to come out and stay out. I am sure you would agree with that. The other citations for this phrase are enough to back it up. I am quite capable of making a mistake and would accept your actually letting us all know what the two sources in question say about the definition of the Concerned Citizens for Family Values as "an organization that ran ads targeting incumbent Idaho Supreme Court Justice Cathy Silak during her 2000 re-election campaign against challenger Daniel T. Eismann." GeorgeLouis (talk) 11:33, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

GL, you say above that the Berman/Forbes piece does not refer to Concerned Citizens for Family Values. How are we to interpret your statement in light of the following passage in that source: "One of his favorite causes is Concerned Citizens for Family Values, which in 2002 paid for ads..."?? Now, since the article continues to cite that source as support for the assertion re VS and CCFV, I don't see a need to revert your most recent edit. But I do wish you would stop wasting our time with off-the-wall posts here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:55, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I made a couple of minor attribution tweaks that should hopefully put the matter to rest. Proposing a text revision like this in the first place would have been the appropriate thing to do instead of simply deleting the sources. It's easy enough to do and it makes life much simpler for everyone. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:18, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Nomo, you are to "interpret" my statement in referring to the citation, which goes to only the first page of the article, when it should have pointed to the second page where, indeed, you so thoughtfully pointed out that the quotation does indeed reside there. Thank you for actually taking the time to inform me. As for the not-so-sly rumination about "wasting our time" and "off-the-wall posts," I refer you also to the policy: Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith. Your remark was anything but collegial, and I invite you to apologize to me for your slam. Thank you in advance for that. GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:20, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Please just stick to the content issues. Inviting apologies over perceived slights is really counterproductive. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:22, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Red, this is the place to talk to you about your User Conduct, as you made so clear when you told me to stay away from your User Page, so I will say right now that your use of the words "perceived slights" and "counterproductive" is really offensive to me, as they would be to most people, and I again ask you to review WP:Civility, which states "Participate in a respectful and considerate way, and avoid directing offensive language at other users. Do not ignore the positions and conclusions of others." As for Nomo, yes, you are correct, I should have approached Nomo on his or her User Page, so I will do so from now on. GeorgeLouis (talk) 16:40, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Taking offense to "counterproductive" seems rather odd to say the least. The talk page is not the place to focus on user conduct issues, and my conduct wasn't the issue -- it's about your exchange with Nomo; and I'm just saying, get over it and move on instead of trying to tickle out apologies. Expecting someone to know how to get from page 1 of an article to page 2 is not overly demanding IMO. Can we keep the focus on content now? Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:00, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Consumer Direct Marketing

The CEO of Melaleuca Inc. section refers to the company using "Consumer Direct Marketing." I move that this term replace "multi-level marketing" in the lead section. If I'm understanding this correctly, then "multi-level marketing" only refers to Oil of Melaleuca, which is no longer a company. Thoughts? HtownCat (talk) 15:50, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Please review the many previous discussions of this issue. If we must discuss it again, I suspect some of us will simply copy and paste our posts from those previous discussions. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:00, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. This issue has been discussed ad nauseum and settled long ago. These continued attempts to re-litigate previously settled issues is maddeningly counterproductive. It looks as though a couple of editors here have no real interest in achieving stability but rather are engaged in a seemingly never-ending campaign to POV push and whitewash the article. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:10, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly support HtownCat's suggestion. I call everybody's attention to the fact that this article was stabilized for two months, without referring to Melaleuca as a multilevel marketing organization, a term that Frank VanderSloot himself (the subject of this article) vigorously denies. The stable version was instituted here. and was reverted here by Rhode Island Red, who had been absent from the discussion for that length of time. The two-month-stable version was reinstated by User:Collect

Yes, it was abundantly clear that you endorse the idea of using this nonsensical terms instead of MLM, but it was soundly defeated every time you went forum shopping, hoping for support, on the DR boards. If you try to re-litigate this again, you'll just be referred back to those discussions. Move on now and be cooperative. Rhode Island Red (talk) 06:52, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Red: I call to your attention WP:Civility and would appreciate an apology for your peremptory remark, or at least an explanation for such language. In my view, "Move on now and be cooperative" is really counterproductive and makes all editors wince. It made me wince, and I am fairly well inured to such a gibe ("an insulting or mocking remark; a taunt"). GeorgeLouis (talk) 22:27, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Attack Ads

Two editors from the "conservative" block have made two attempts now to remove every mention of the term "attack ads" from the article and replace it with just "ads". No attempt was made to discuss the issue, and now, as usual, it's turning into another edit war. As I've explained in my edit summary -- twice -- the term used by the sources was "attack ads" -- because they were attack ads. The term has a very specific and clearly defined meaning that is perfectly applicable in this case and the use of the term is exactly consistent with what the sources wrote. There is absolutely no valid reason to delete this term from the article and if the attempts to whitewash it continue, the COI/user conduct will be brought to the attention of the admins. This hyper-partisan disruptive POV pushing cannot continue unchecked. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:53, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I would certainly suggest raising it elsewhere, rather than continuing to revert (it's not worth it!). I'm quite prepared to compromise on that one, myself -- particularly if the sources in question do not use the term (and perhaps even if they do...). I should add that raising it elsewhere seems unlikely to provoke sympathy; I'm only saying I think it's preferable to reverting. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:15, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I raised the issue here on Talk after it became necessary so as to avert an edit war. I figured that the edit summaries alone would have sufficed. The sources do in fact use the term attack ads. The term has a very specific meaning (unlike "ads"). They weren't just "ads", and they didn't merely support VanderSloot's favored candidate; they were ads specifically designed to denigrate a particular candidate. So the term is used properly with respect to meaning and usage by the cited sources. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:38, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you could indicate which source(s) and (particularly if the source is long) quote from it. I suppose if the term is used by multiple sources I'd likely change my mind and insist on using it in our article (though I note the current version includes the term -- perhaps it's sufficient?). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:23, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Sure. I'm tied up for a bit but I'll get that posted by EOD. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:45, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

When one looks at the number of times "attack ads" was used, and in a non-neutral manner (ads against someone - and then specifying attack ads against someone? Nope - NPOV requires assiduously neutral wording. Collect (talk) 16:27, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Attack ads are by definition "against someone". NPOV does not require that the terms used by multiple sources be replaced with some other term of another editor's choosing. Using the term attack ads is not injecting a non-neutral POV; quite the contrary -- neutrality means respecting the words of the sources without overriding it with one's personal POV. If it's an issue of the number of times the term is used, I would be amenable for the sake of compromise, to use it once in the lead and once in the first entry in the campaign contributions section, with "ads against" used subsequently. Would that be acceptable to you Collect? Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

We already say that as ad was "against" someone - that does not mean we need gtto shout ATTACK ADS!!! over and over. I suggest the single use in the lede is more than sufficient, and ask you revert your weird insistance that every wikilinked word in the lede "must wikilinked in the body" which ain't so. Really. I fear you so desire to stress ATTACK ADS that you miss WP:NPOV utterly and entirely. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I already proposed a potential compromise to mention "attack ads" it in the lead and in the first entry, which is appropriate because the lead only summarizes what's in the body text; it is not the place to introduce content that is not discussed in the body text. This would have been clear had you read WP:LEAD as I suggested in my edit summary.. It would have been a good comrpomise for you to accept, but since you didn't, I'm going to followup with Nomo's request and we can take it from there. I never once proposed that every mention of "attack ads" needs to be wikilinked. That's either a red herring or a misinterpretation on your part. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Nomo, regarding your request, the numerous examples below should be more than sufficient to back up the point. Let me know if you have any questions.

• Lewiston Morning Tribune: “On Friday Roark shrugged off the suit as an attempt at intimidation by VanderSloot, whose companies have contributed $35,000 to Roark’s opponent, Lawrence Wasden, and spent $16,500 for a radio attack ad against Roark in Eastern Idaho.”

• Davidson (“Herndon, Simpson in lead for runoff”. Post Register): “Though the campaigning among the candidates was cordial, Herndon was attacked on May 7, when a newly formed political action committee, Citizens for Truth and Justice, ran an ‘Anybody but Herndon’ ad in the Post Register… paid for by special interest groups which clearly attack specific candidates.”

• Draper (“7th District judge race still fairly quiet”. Post Register): “Citizens for Truth and Justice, weighed in, blanketing the airwaves and running ads urging residents to vote for "Anyone but Herndon."… Herndon plans to take further attack ads in stride, saying they didn't work in April.”

• Corbin (Title -- “Attack ads have local link”. Post Register): Self-explanatory title

• Fisher (Title: “If you buy radio stations, who needs attack ads?” Lewiston Morning Tribune): Self-explanatory title.

• NBC Nightly News (Feb 2, 2012): “An outspoken conservative and devout Mormon, VS’s Idaho company pumped $1 million into a super PAC backing Mitt Romney, helping to pay for a barrage of attack ads in the Florida primary.”

• Russell (“Groups fined over ads against judge”. The Spokesman-Review): “Idaho Secretary of State Ben Ysursa has announced fines against two groups that launched last-minute campaign attacks against an Idaho Supreme Court candidate without following the disclosure requirements of the state’s Sunshine Law.”

• KTVB News (“Groups must pay $1,900 fines for illegal campaigns”): “Citizens for Justice and Citizens for Commonsense Solutions were behind attack ads against Idaho Supreme Court candidate John Bradbury, who lost to incumbent Roger Burdick on May 25.”

• Idaho Statesman (“Ads attacking judicial candidate violated state disclosure law, official says”. May 24).

• Zuckerman: “VanderSloot once outed me as gay in a newspaper attack ad. He bought the ad because he disapproved of my investigative series about child molesters in the Boy Scouts.)”

As should now be apparent, every instance in which “attack ads” was mentioned in the article was justified since it is the same terminology used by one or more of the cited sources in each section (not to mention in other sources that weren’t cited). It’s a widely used term that has a very specific meaning and refers to a particular type of ad, as indicated by the WP article on the term. It’s not inherently negative; it’s just what those types of ads are called. There is no POV issue with respect to use of the term in the article. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:49, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

None of which excuses the wanton violation of WP:NPOV. And you seem so oddly isnistent on shouting ATTACK ADS every chance you get when just about any ad opposing a person could be called that. Misplaced Pages uses neutral language, and that is official policy. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:58, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing in WP:NPOV that supports the POV you are pushing -- zero. There is no POV violation here and merely shouting "NPOV" over and over again is not an argument, it's just obnoxious. Your misinterpretations of policy in support of such contentious claims on your part is disruptive and highly inappropriate. You're also being rigid and inflexible even when an overly generous compromise was offered. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:40, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Request for Comment

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Should each mention of advertisements by VanderSloot against judicial candidates be labelled as "attack ads"? Should the words "attack ads" be wikilinked multiple times in the BLP? Should the term "attack ads" appear in both the lead and in the body? Is the complete list of ads UNDUE in the BLP in the first place? 00:20, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Comments

I suggest that iterating and repeating "attack ads" as was in an earlier state of this BLP was redundant and potentially non-neutral language when combined with the word "against" which rather implies on its own that the ads did not support the person named. I further suggest that iterating "attack ads" provides a non-neutral wording for the BLP, and that the extensive material critical of VanderSloot actually breaches the level of UNDUE in the first place. Collect (talk) 00:25, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

It would be a good start to see the sources that call these 'attack ads' as well. Arkon (talk) 00:45, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, you're in luck, Arkon -- it happens that there is a list immediately above this section. I don't think we need to go overboard with the term in our article, but there's no question that this is a well-used phrase in sources relevant here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 01:09, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

The sources do mention that these are considered attack ads, so the phrase is usable, however using it repeatedly is unnecessary and over-linking doesn't make any sense. Such repetitions have been removed at this point though, so the issue is moot in my mind--no one is arguing for more uses of the term at this point. Jeremy112233 (talk) 01:32, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Collect, your comment included a question that has never been an issue. Namely, there has never been a version of the article in which every instance of the term attack ad was wikilinked and nobody ever suggested that it should be, so the question is a non sequitor (and the answer is an obvious no).

On a more general note, WP guidelines on wikilinking (WP:OVERLINK) state the following: "Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, links may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead." Thus my suggestion to link once in the lead and once on first mention in the body text was perfectly reasonable.

Secondly, you previously reverted my edit in which I added the term back to the body text of the article in one place (appropriately sourced of course) so that it would be consistent with the use of the term in the lead. I explained very clearly in my edit summary and on the Talk page the rationale for doing so. I also directed you to WP:LEAD for guidance, because the relevant guideline is unmistakably clear. I can only assume that you either didn't take the time to read it, or that you simply disregarded it. Regardless, please take note now:

"The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects...It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article.

It would be really helpful if you actually read the comments I post and take heed of them. This whole exercise was futile and unnecessary, as I had already proposed a perfectly reasonable compromise, which you chose to reject in lieu of edit warring. WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT gets really tiresome after a while. Rhode Island Red (talk) 01:58, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Read WP:AGF and WP:NPA please. Your last edit wikilinks the phrase twice - and where the phrase is contentious, repeating the wikilink is surely contentious. You use editorial columns as a source for the claims. Columns which do not meet WP:BLP for contentious claims. You had at one point a full five uses of the phrase. And reverted to make sure there were five full uses of the phrase. Now you try deriding me as not knowing Misplaced Pages policies - which is not how to win friends and influence people, Red. Wikilinking a phrase sourced to editorial opinion columns twice in a BLP is a clear example of trying to push a POV. And your posts above make clear your distaste for VanderSloot, and I suggest that editing a BLP in order to show one's distaste for the person is a teensy bit likely to be viewed as non-neutral. I have absolutely no personal, financial, political, social, religious or other connection to VanderSloot whatsoever. And absolutely no connection to any other editors on this article whatsoever. And I would note that I was not the one who did six reverts in 16 hours. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Collect, WP:OVERLINK makes it clear that's it's perfectly acceptable to wikilink a term once in the lead and once in the body text. There is no special proviso that says "unless (Collect thinks) the term is contentious, in which case repeating the term is surely contentious." If this is what your argument boils down to now, then I have to say it's much ado about nothing. BTW, I did not say that you didn't know WP policy; I questioned why you ignored the policies and went on a tear for nothing. One last suggestion -- check out WP:TPG and notice the parts about staying on the topic of the thread and focusing on editorial issues. Cheers. Rhode Island Red (talk) 02:42, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Again - please read WP:NPA. You seem unable to make a single post without making it a personal attack. And drop the grossly uncivil claim of "tag teaming" as it has been found to be uncivil many times now. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Jeremy, we've had a few disagreements of our own in the past, so I just wanted to let you know that I truly appreciate you taking an objective view on this. Rhode Island Red (talk) 02:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• I see no need to use the term "attack ads" as it is 9at least where I live) only ever used to disparage an opponent. Further, a complete list of the ads would be undue. --Nouniquenames 18:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Some of the items on the list above submitted by Rhode Island Red can simply be ignored—that is, any that don't use the specific phrase "attack ad." I would also ignore the item headlined "Attack ads have local link," in which a copy editor attempted to sum up the story just below and possibly did a bad job of it. Also, the opinion piece headlined "If you buy radio stations, who needs attack ads?" is simply that — an opinion piece, with a question as a headline. But, in any event, the neutral term advertising would also cover the attack ads, so what is the problem with simply using a term that covers the whole range? Yes, take out "attack ads": The phrase is pejorative. GeorgeLouis (talk) 23:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I don´t think "attack ads" should be used in the lead. "Advertisements" is a broader and more neutral word that covers it. "Attack ads" may be used one or more times in the body where the ads are discussed more specifically, if there are valid references. I agree with George Louis that caracteristics that are only in the headlines/ingress of a newspaper piece, and not in the body should normally be ruled out as headlines/ingesses are typically written by the desk and not by journos. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 01:34, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Yet another comment from WP Project Conservatism editor. We already know what the WP Project Conservatism editors' POV is on the issue. It's unclear however, why that position favors a vague term (advertisement) over the specific well-defined term (attack ads) used by the sources in question. "Attacks ad" is not an insult -- it is what the ads are and were called. Some input from editors independent of the Conservative project is needed. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:17, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

So I am a WP Project Conservatism editor now, am I ? Nope. Never been. Please retract your statement and please refrain from further personal attacks. There was an invitation to comment and I did. No reason at all for you to get incivil just because I happened to have another view than yours. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 19:42, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Didn't mean to rough your feathers. My statement may not have been entirely accurate, perhaps, but it was not too far off the mark either. I just assumed you were actually a member of WPPC based on a quick glance at the feed of "Articles on Conservatism" on your user page and the link to Andrew Schlafly, founder of Conservapedia, listed among your "Articles of Interest". That in itself sufficient to support my concerns about getting input in a content dispute exclusively from a particular narrow band of the political spectrum. Having gotten that out of the way, I have no intention of belaboring the issue here. If I feel that we are not getting sufficiently neutral input on disputes, I'll look to resolve it elsewhere. As for the content dispute, I don't understand the logic of your assertion to censor the specific and well-defined term used by the sources and replace it with a more vague term, and clearly I'm not alone in that position. 00:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

"was not too far off the mark either". I do think it was, and I do find your attitude of going to people´s usepages to profile them instead of just relating to what they say very troublesome. It doesn´t help that I feel your reply was kind of insinuating by pointing out things you found on my usepage (and a subpage) that "support concerns". To set things completely straight it now appears I may have to explain myself; I find that very unfortunate. Your idea to henceforth focus on content rather than users, appears very wise. But since suspicions have been raised about myself, I may find it necessary to come back to address your insinuations. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 03:26, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Iselilja, RIR. "Please refrain from baseless personal attacks." Actually, please refrain from personal attacks, period. I have a compendium of some of your personal attacks and will share it with you on your Talk Page, if you feel it might be helpful to you. Or I could send it in a private e-mail that no one else would see. Perhaps my doing so would help further the project by making you aware of how I at least feel about the remarks you have been making either here or in the Edit Summaries. GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:18, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

No George, please do not contact me by e-mail now or ever, and only post on my Talk page if policy requires it. Aside from that, I don't think it's productive to continue to air concerns about user conduct issues here, so going forward I think it would be best if you focused only on content issues when addressing me or commenting about my posts. I will do the same. That would be productive. If things continue to escalate, I'm afraid the matter might have to be hashed out at ArbCom. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Uninvolved editor comments

There seem to be four questions asked here which I have repeated below

1. Should each mention of advertisements by VanderSloot against judicial candidates be labelled as "attack ads"?
2. Should the words "attack ads" be wikilinked multiple times in the BLP?
3. Should the term "attack ads" appear in both the lead and in the body?
4. Is the complete list of ads UNDUE in the BLP in the first place? Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

• No to 1..3. (Yes to 4). There seems to be an increasing use of WP for campaigning and soapboxing. We are writing an encyclopedia not a campaign vehicle. Just because something is in a source does not mean that we should include it here if it serves no encyclopedic purpose, neither must we use the language of our sources. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Martin, those assertions don't seem to consistent with WP policy/GLs. WP:OVERLINK states that a term can be wikilinked in the lead and once again on first mention. It's a minor point, but either way the term should be wikilinked on first mention regardless of where it appears. Secondly, if the term appears in the lead, then it must in the body text as per WP:LEAD. Lastly, the compromise proposal was to use the term once in the first paragraph of the body text and once in the lead, not to include it repeatedly throughout the body text.

I don't agree with the assertion that including the term attack ads makes the article a campaign vehicle. The term has a precise meaning and it is used by the sources and in the article in accordance with that well-defined meaning. Journalistic coverage of VanderSloot's attack ads spans a decade -- there has been steady coverage of VanderSloots political financing, referred to explicitly as attack ads. The term was not used by one or two sources but by many; it's not a matter of why the term should be included (since the justification is clear) but rather why it would be warranted to censor it. If your argument is that the term should not appear anywhere, then that will be difficult to justify. The vague argument has been raised that use of the term somehow violates WP:NEUTRAL. I see absolutely no evidence of this, so if I missed a relevant statement in that policy, please point it out. According to my understanding, censoring the term would be biased and a violation of WP:NPOV, given that the policy states: "(NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:13, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

An RfC is a Request for Comment and not a place to try rebutting every independent view expressed as a result. Try letting the other folks actually express views on the questions posed, please. Collect (talk) 16:16, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

My comment was entirely appropriate since this is the place for discussion of editorial issues, not to hand down dictates chiseled in stone, nor to police other editors as you just did. Keep the comments focused on content please. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:00, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Ranch Awards

Andrewman, you just changed the text that said "The ranch received awards at the Utah State Fair in 1995-1997" to "The ranch received 21 awards at the Utah State Fair in its first four years of operation", and you justified the change in you edit summary with the explanation "clarified ranch awards information". Can you please explain how this is a clarification? The sources do not mention anything about "first 4 years of operation" nor do they mention 21 awards; they are merely lists of awards received during the 1995, 1996, and 1997 Utah State Fair. As such, your addition does not appear to be a clarification but rather WP:OR. Rhode Island Red (talk) 02:25, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Per your earlier request, I quoted the awards section in another part of the talk page. In order to make it even easier to see, here's a table of all of the awards the ranch won for its Piedmontese cattle. Counting is not original research and it is clearly allowed by WP rules. I realized that I couldn't tell if the ranch was 4 or 5 years old when it received the last of its awards so I changed that figure to 5. Again, subtracting the date when something happened from the date when something was created an allowable calculation.

Andrew (talk) 09:02, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

As I suspected. In that case, the text revision is problematic. First off, you initially changed the date range "1995-1997" to "first 4 years of operation", and then you changed it to "first 5 years". That's misleading. The ranch did not receive any awards in its first 2 years of operation; it won them in 1995-1997. Secondly, since the list you assembled to come up with the count of 21 awards involved 3 different sources, it is WP:SYNTH. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:25, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Using multiple sources for independent claims is not SYNTH - in fact it is how articles are meade as a rule. It is linking unrelated claims from two or more sources to make a new claim which would be SYNTH, and that is not present in using sources for individual awards and making a list. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:42, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

That definition of SYNTH seems to describe exactly what Andrewman did. He took three sources that did not make the claim about "21 awards" and made a new claim based on an an amalgamation of the 3 sources. Are you willing to cede the argument or shall we go to the WP:OR noticeboards with this? Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

WP:CALC is all that is needed to show that this is not OR. I am not even sure why this is an issue. What is the problem with this? Arzel (talk) 18:02, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No need to go to the boards. I'll third be the forth and agree with the above that this is logical and perfectly acceptable. --Nouniquenames 18:07, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll agree with the above editors that, yes, we can add 2+2 to make 4, but where did Andrew get his info? I cannot access the citation in the article footnotes, so I assume that he Andrew has access to a hard copy somewhere. Is that correct? GeorgeLouis (talk) 23:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a hard copy. The Deseret piece is actually online, I just forgot the link. The other two pieces are articles in the Salt Lake Tribune, which is archived by several major research databases.

Andrew (talk) 01:00, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

You all may or may not be right about the simple addition; the date range change seems misleading and unnecessary. However, since the conservative clique always seems to speak with one voice on every issue, I'd feel better if we had some input from NPOV editors on the matter. WP:TAGTEAM seems to be snowballing and is cause for concern. This is Misplaced Pages, not ConservapediaRhode Island Red (talk) 01:09, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

For the last time - there is no tagteam trying to get at you. There is no conspiracy or "clique" aiming at your back. There is no "single voice on every issue" here. There is no cabal trying to put you down. There is no collusion between editors all of whom are "against you." Is this finally clear? Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

No need to be histrionic. A growing group of Conservative editors that takes exactly the same position (often tendentious), on every issue looks like a POV/TAGTEAM/COI issue to me. Shouting "no" a bunch of times doesn't change that perception. Ultimately, the issue would be up to the admins to decide. That aside, I reiterate that it would be nice to have some input from editors that don't have a partisan political position. Cheers. Rhode Island Red (talk) 02:01, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

A neat trick - I seem to be called a Labourite by Australians and Brits (see my Johann Hari edits, inter alia). And I avoid any partisanship, as a look at my edits on List of Presidential nicknames will also show. So all that is left is what you call "histrionics." And shouting "COI" also makes no sense at all -- I fear you are seeking to see cabals at every juncture :(. Collect (talk) 02:59, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

It's a user conduct issue that won't get resolved on this thread. Nonetheless, if the situation continues to get out of hand like it has been, it will have to go to ArbCom for resolution. Rhode Island Red (talk) 14:59, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Then quit bitching about it here. It is getting quite tiresome. Exactly what is the contention with this issue? You seem to be against it simply because you don't like VanderSloot. Arzel (talk) 16:41, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm against the change because I think it's a synthetic, somewhat misleading, and entirely unnecessary edit. I thought I already made that abundantly clear. It has nothing whatsoever to do with feeling one way or another about VS. It's a relatively minor issue in the grand scheme, but it's difficult to resolve even simple issues like these when all the feedback is coming from editors with a particular political POV and POV on this article. Hope you can understand that. Either way, as you suggested, it's time to move on. There are other mechanisms for dealing with that issue. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Images?

Does anyone know of an images of VanderSloot that we can use for the article? Would be a good addition. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:50, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Rachel Maddow Show as a Reliable Source and possible Copyright Violation

Your attention is called to a discussion of the above subject at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#A_single_Rachel_Maddow_show_as_RS_on_Frank_L._VanderSloot. GeorgeLouis (talk) 23:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Marketing subsection

The question is, Should this subsection be written with the most important information first, in the inverted-pyramid style, or in a chronological style, with the accusation first and the result second? It is my contention that because the charge was dropped and because this accusation was so long ago that using the chronological style here would be infusing this subsection with a decidedly partial tone.

Inverted-pyramid style

In 1992 officials in Michigan and Idaho "cleared the company's marketing plan" of accusations it had countenanced violation of state legislation; they "blamed 'renegade' distributors for any problems." In Florida investigators were "looking at whether the company complies with state laws barring unfair trade practices and pyramid schemes."

In that year, Melaleuca signed an assurance of voluntary compliance with Michigan and Idaho agreeing to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.”

Chronological style

In the 1990s, Melaleuca was targeted by Michigan regulators and the Idaho attorney general's office for various marketing violations. In 1991 Melaleuca received a cease-and-desist order for violating Michigan’s anti–pyramid scheme laws. In 1992, Melaleuca signed a consent decree with the states of Michigan and Idaho agreeing to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.” Subsequently, "officials in both states cleared the company's marketing plan and blamed 'renegade' distributors for any problems."

I agree the first paragraph could be improved in its diction, but the main thrust should still be on the result and not the cause. Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:36, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Your summary of the difference is decidedly incomplete. Your preferred version makes no reference to the consent degree. I also think it fails to provide the reader a sufficient understanding of what the issue was; it only conveys that the company was cleared of something, not what the something was. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:37, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Here's a paragraph that keeps it all:

In 1992 officials in Michigan and Idaho "cleared the company's marketing plan" of accusations that Melaleuca had countenanced violation of state laws. The previous year Melaleuca had received a cease-and-desist order alleging the firm had broken Michigan’s anti–pyramid scheme laws. In Florida investigators had been investigating whether the firm had complied with laws "barring unfair trade practices and pyramid schemes." In 1992, Melaleuca signed an assurance of voluntary compliance with Michigan and Idaho agreeing to "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid.”

Subsequently, "officials in both states cleared the company's marketing plan and blamed 'renegade' distributors for any problems."

I agree wholly with Nomo on this one. The incidents were mentioned by several sources and none positioned the issue in the manner that George is suggesting. The proposed text lacks sufficient context and detail and seems quite misleading. Rhode Island Red (talk) 19:54, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Highlighting the charges, rather than the settlement, certainly violates WP:NPOV. What is the reason for keeping the chronological order? Also, the pyramid version has exactly the same data as the chrono version, including the sources. The settlement is certainly more important than the charges, which indeed were only charges. GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:25, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

George the version you are proposing is inconsistent with what the majority of sources wrote about the incidents. First of all, Melaleuca was not "charged"; they were "investigated". The investigation did not show that there was no evidence of wrongdoing -- quite the contrary; evidence of wrongdoing was found. The company was only able to prevent further action being taken by making concessions and agreeing to take remedial action. In addition, among the half dozen or so sources that described the incidents, none mentioned anything remotely like what you have proposed above (based on the Orlando Sentinel article). Here are specific examples:

In 1992, the Michigan attorney general's office investigated Melaleuca's business practices. The attorney general alleged that materials about a company program claimed participants were "making $80,000 to $100,000 within one or two years," and that bonuses were paid simply for recruiting new participants, which is illegal in Michigan. The AG also alleged that literature from a Michigan participant made false and misleading representations that the company was endorsed by the Michigan attorney general and the Federal Trade Commission. "The in this instance is very extensive and not our typical boilerplate," says Robert Ward Jr., the former Michigan assistant attorney general who drafted the agreement with Melaleuca. "We seem to really nail them down to specific remedies not ordinarily required in these cases... We were concerned with earnings claims and their entire marketing program. Melaleuca did not admit wrongdoing, but it signed an agreement with the state assuring that it would "not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid," and that it would enforce its own policies to prevent distributors from referring to the FDA, FTC, or attorney general in its marketing materials. For a year, the state required the company to report monthly to the AG's office on the results of its effort to ensure compliance with the agreement.

"Melaleuca’s get-rich pitches have in the past caused Michigan regulators to take action, resulting in the company’s entering into a voluntary agreement to “not engage in the marketing and promotion of an illegal pyramid”‘; it entered into a separate voluntary agreement with the Idaho attorney general’s office, which found that “certain independent marketing executives of Melaleuca” had violated Idaho law."

"In 1991, after being slapped with a cease-and-desist order for violating Michigan’s anti–pyramid scheme laws, Melaleuca signed an agreement with the state’s attorney general under which it agreed to change its business practices."

These sources all paint a very different picture from the simple dismissal alluded to in the Orlando Sentinel article, which says that the marketing plan was eventually cleared but fails to mention the cease and desist order, that wrongdoing was in fact found, and that the company had to make concessions and change its business practices in order to be compliant with the law. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:29, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

All of which has little to do with the order in which the facts are given. From what you are saying, this section could be beefed up, and I suggest that you simply add all the pertinent information to the piece if you feel it necessary, but for consensus on this to mean anything, the results of all the legal activity should be be in the first sentence, not buried way down at the bottom. I feel you have not at all mentioned the topic I introduced at the beginning of this Talk section—chronological vs. inverted-pyramid—but simply reverted the Article section because you don't like Frank VanderSloot and want the WP article about the man and his life to be as negative as possible. I shouldn't have to remind you that "reverting good-faith actions of other editors may be disruptive and can even lead to the reverter being temporarily blocked from editing," because I am fully aware that you know a great deal about WP policies and procedures. GeorgeLouis (talk) 15:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

RIR's point is that saying that MI and ID "cleared the company's marketing plan" is not a good summary of the results of all the legal activity. I think he has presented good evidence in favor of that point. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:30, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Undue Weight on Melaleuca Details

Noticed that the section on Melaleuca has been expanded considerably (see original versus new version), but the newly added detail includes non-essential fluff that seems inappropriate for a BLP (e.g., the blurb about the Idaho Psychological Association). Remember that the article is about VanderSloot, not Melaleuca, so the entry should be limited to the most critical details as summarized by reliable secondary sources who have written about VanderSloot. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Reasonable point. But there is serious disagreement as to what the "most critical details" are. (And not just by Collect and GeorgeLouis.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:47, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. It would be nice if agreement could be reached as to what is most pertinent. I think that relying mainly on sources that have written extensive biographical/bacground information about VanderSloot and included details about Melaleuca in that context would be a reasonable approach to take. Mention of the Idaho Psyc Assn seems especially fluffy. I also think that the newly added subtitles in that section were rather arbitrary and don't function well. For example, the section that deals with the early roots of the business (Inception) includes details about patents in 2004 and the company's current product offerings, which have nothing to do with the company's early roots. Similarly, the discussion of the Idaho/Michigan AG pyramid scheme investigations pertains to the business model but is included in the marketing section. Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I am very happy to make the changes suggested by RIR and hope to continue such content cooperation in the future. Go here for the diff. GeorgeLouis (talk) 14:06, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I didn't suggest any specific changes; what I suggested was that we reach a prior agreement here on the Talk page. The changes you made do not negate the problems and in fact introduce new ones. The section "Inception" no has only one line in it, so it doesn't warrant a separate section. Secondly, a new section was created called "Patents" which has very little if any direct connection to VanderSloot and is given WP:UNDUE. Lastly, the newly created section called "Consumer Direct Marketing" gives undue weight to a term that has no real meaning -- it's a marketing term used by Melaleuca and by giving it undue weight, it obscures the fact that the company's business model is multi-level marketing. We have discussed this terminology issue at length already and the problems were clearly spelled out. It seems like you are simply ignoring those discussions, but in case you simply forgot or need a refresher, let me know and I will be glad to provide the links for you. So let's go back to the drawing board and propose changes here with the intent of achieving some kind of consensus. Rhode Island Red (talk) 18:07, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

For now, until the matter gets resolved, I've removed the arbitrary/confusing subheads pending further discussion as to what would be appropriate. The subhead you created called "Government Investigations" might be appropriate for inclusion but then again doing so might also give undue weight -- that's something we should consider further. Let's here some proposals. Rhode Island Red (talk) 18:17, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

One of the awards that you removed was given to VanderSloot by the Idaho first lady. The way I wrote it didn't mention any connection to VanderSloot, though, so I'll rewrite it. Andrew (talk) 17:28, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Which edit are you referring to Andrewman? Rhode Island Red (talk) 18:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Hm. Well, I tried. GeorgeLouis (talk) 03:27, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Achieving consensus means that the content actually has to be discussed and the issues have to be worked out. You're free to punt if you so choose. Rhode Island Red (talk) 04:29, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

In the discussion above, it was said by Rhode Island Red that:

the section that deals with the early roots of the business (Inception) includes details about patents in 2004 and the company's current product offerings, which have nothing to do with the company's early roots. Similarly, the discussion of the Idaho/Michigan AG pyramid scheme investigations pertains to the business model but is included in the marketing section.

Therefore I made some changes to the Article text that addressed those problems (simply a new subsection for the Patents), and some changes in the titles of the subheaders. These changes were reverted with the comments "this was not what I had suggested at all and the edits are problematic for various reasons as outlined on Talk -- proposals for changes can be discussed further there" and "keeping this in one section w/o confusing/arbitrary subheads -- see Talk‬"

The question is: Should the version on the right-hand side of http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frank_L._VanderSloot&diff=prev&oldid=524548960 be used in Misplaced Pages (with further editing as needed), or should the older section on the left-hand side be used? Of course I prefer the newer version, on the right-hand side. GeorgeLouis (talk) 15:22, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Direct Selling Association

Opening up discussion here at the request of Rhode Island Red as to whether the Direct Selling Association should be described in this article as (1) "a trade association that engages in public relations and lobbying efforts on behalf of the multi-level marketing industry, or (2) "a trade association that engages in public relations and lobbying efforts on behalf of its members," or (3) "a trade association." I favor No. 3 as short and to the point, but I can go with No. 2. The first choice is definitely a non-starter because the Direct Selling Association, according to its Misplaced Pages Article, has members that do not engage in multilevel marketing. Note also that Rhode Island Red was a heavy contributor to the DSA article in Misplaced Pages, so I assume he knows something about how it works. Please comment below so we can get some idea of consensus. Thank you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 14:46, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I prefer 3 because the source does not mention support 1. The article already points out that the subject is involved in MSM. Direct sales is not necessarily MSM - think of door-to-door encyclopedia and vacuum cleaner sales. TFD (talk) 05:51, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

According to the DSA PDF 98.7% of member sellers utilize multilevel marketing. So while it is true that some members of the DSA do not use MLM, they are in the very small minority. Grayfell (talk) 07:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

You are correct on this. Anything more verges on "editorial commentary in Misplaced Pages's voice" aka SYNTH. Number 2 is a "d'oh" type wording - verging on the super-obvious (ever hear of a trade association which has nothing to do with its members and does nothing as well?) Collect (talk) 14:11, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Making the fix per quick consensus here. Of course consensus can change. GeorgeLouis (talk) 14:53, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

There wasn't a consensus for this change, so you should just as quickly undo it. It is covered under WP:BTW. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:36, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Of course we don't go into detail like RIR wants. I am glad I don't edit this article, I would have shot myself eons ago. Good luck. --Malerooster (talk) 15:01, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

You say "of course we don't..." as though it's some self-evident truth. It's not. WP:BTW makes it clear that it is preferable to include some descriptive information rather than merely relying on the hyperlink alone. It would be best if comments had at least some basis in WP policy rather than just being speculative personal opinion. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC) Well, the details can be found at Direct Selling Association. Thanks for commenting. It is nice to have new names here. GeorgeLouis (talk) 15:28, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

1. ^ Manning, Josh (December 4, 2000). "New Jersey Firm Buys Blackfoot, Idaho, Cheese Factory". Post Register. Retrieved 09/26/2012. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help) Cite error: The named reference "Manning" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
2. ^ O'Connell, John. "Controversial donor praised by dairymen." Capital Press. Aug. 30, 2012 Cite error: The named reference "OConnell" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
3. ^ Draper, Nick (July 15, 2006). "Cheese changing hands Sartori Foods completes deal to purchase Blackfoot firm". Post Register. Retrieved 09/26/2012. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help) Cite error: The named reference "Draper" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
4. Englert, Stuart (July 17, 1994). "GROUP WILL REOPEN CHEESE PLANT". Idaho Falls Post Register. p. C3.
5. Englert, Stuart (March 2, 1995). "MELALEUCA BOSS BUYS CHEESE PLANT". Idaho Falls Post Register. p. C1.
6. Strassel, Kimberly (26 April 2012). "Strassel: The President Has a List; Barack Obama attempts to intimidate contributors to Mitt Romney's campaign". Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 1 November 2012.
7. "ROUNDTABLE THIS WEEK IN POLITICS". ABC News. 20 May 2012. {{cite episode}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
8. Strassel, Kimberley. "Trolling for Dirt on the President's List." The Wall Street Journal. July 19, 2012. Accessed Nov. 7, 2012
9. Cite error: The named reference Strassel2 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
10. "The President's Hit List." The Wall Street Journal. May 11, 2012. Accessed Nov. 7, 2012

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