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Revision as of 15:34, 9 December 2012 editUbikwit (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,539 edits →Result concerning Evildoer187← Previous edit Revision as of 16:16, 9 December 2012 edit undoUbikwit (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,539 edits →Room for improvement: revised my misappropriation of the discussion relating to "contemporary status"Next edit →
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I am new to this discussion and editing conflagration, but it seems that in addition to Bedouins, Kurds should be on the list; I added them earlier. I am new to this discussion and editing conflagration, but it seems that in addition to Bedouins, Kurds should be on the list; I added them earlier.
It is stated in the FAQ section that the list pertains to contemporary status, not anachronistic claims related to "origin" or the like. It would seem that the focus should be on history and politics, not religion and genetics. There is a fair amount of discussion relating to "contemporary status" regarding the characterization of a people as indigenous, not anachronistic claims related to "origin" or the like. It would seem that the focus should be on history and politics, not religion and genetics, but the discussion has been hijacked.
The claim being made by the pro-Israel group is clearly an ahistorical claim. The claim being made by the pro-Israel group is clearly an ahistorical claim.
Given the references in the UN document I cited on the article Talk page, it seems that Palestinian Arabs in Israel should be on the list as well as Bedouin Arabs. The overall question of Palestinians in the Palestinians territories would seem to be much more difficult, and perhaps intractable at present, but it seems clear that there is no basis in modern history to include Jews, let alone the anachronistic "Israelites" on the list. --] (]) 15:34, 9 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit Given the references in the UN document I cited on the article Talk page, it seems that Palestinian Arabs in Israel should be on the list as well as Bedouin Arabs. The overall question of Palestinians in the Palestinians territories would seem to be much more difficult, and perhaps intractable at present, but it seems clear that there is no basis in modern history to include Jews, let alone the anachronistic "Israelites" on the list. --] (]) 15:34, 9 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

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    Cla68

    Reminders and instructions given to both Cla68 and Mathsci; no further actions now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:03, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Cla68

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Mathsci (talk) 02:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Cla68 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    WP:ARBR&I: Cla68 (talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from commenting on, or interacting with, Mathsci (talk · contribs), broadly construed, anywhere on Misplaced Pages, per AE thread.
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I accept the closing advice, as summarised by Future Perfect at Sunrise, for how to handle these matters, if they ever arise in the future. I have asked him to clarify whether by "private communication" he means by wiki-email or on a user talk page. Either or both is fine. Mathsci (talk) 18:24, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

    Discussion concerning Cla68

    Statement by Cla68

    Admins, could you please do something about this? I think this is the third or fourth enforcement action Mathsci has filed against me. Do you need the links? Admins User:Timotheus Canens and User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, I'm especially interested in what you have to say. You helped make this mess. Cla68 (talk) 03:12, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

    My comment was referring to Mathsci and to whoever this banned editor is that he has been fighting all over Misplaced Pages for the last three years. They are both clearly obsessed with their pursuit of each other, so much so that Mathsci was, by his own admission, dueling with this guy from a hospital bed. As far as I'm aware, I'm allowed to comment on the subject in related dispute resolution forums such as here, ArbCom admendments, and ArbCom case requests, etc. If I'm not, then that's news to me. Cla68 (talk) 03:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    Admins, if you look at Mathsci's contribution history over the last few months, you will see that 90%~ are dedicated to sock puppet investigations, blocking IPs, and filing AE requests or AN notices against editors or admins who comment negatively on his behavior in pursuit of this (admittedly real) boogeyman. In my opinion, your actions in the past have facilitated or encouraged Mathsci's behavior. Could you please do something to stop it, at least as far as it is affecting other editors? Cla68 (talk) 04:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    Future Perfect, you're an admin and this is your interpretation of the rules? Good grief. To say that I'm not allowed to comment on the complaining editor in the AE thread he opens against me is one of the craziest things I think I've seen one of Misplaced Pages's administrators utter, and I've seen a lot of foolishness in my six years of participation in this shite shindig. I notice that one of the admins below has said that Mathsci is now "trying his patience." Imagine how it must feel for the rest of us who have gotten in the way of the Mathsci steamroller, including Nyttend and Collect, as well as myself. Notice, Future Perfect, that you were the one who "warned" Collect because he objected to Mathsci's obsessive behavior. You helped create this monster, Future Perfect, and to try defend your bad decision-making you threaten to block me? Future Perfect, compare mine and Mathsci's editing contributions for the past month. Just do it, then explain which editor is doing what they're supposed to be doing, and which editor you should be helping instead of threatening. Again, good grief. You have made some really bad decisions on this issue. Will you insist on making more? Cla68 (talk) 07:19, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Cla68

    As an administrator who doesn't frequent AE I'm commenting here. It would have been better if Mathsci hadn't filed this request. It would also have been better if Cla68 hadn't responded to this request.

    Cla68 is of course entitled to comment on Arb motions that name him as an affected party, but that doesn't mean he has carte blanche to make snarky comments against Mathsci, especially ones that refer to medical conditions. As far as I can see, Mathsci's editing affects Cla68 only insofar as Cla68 chooses to make it an issue. If Cla68 would decide to ignore Mathsci's posts to Arbspace, and ignore Mathsci's removal of sock posts, would there be an issue? Similarly, if Mathsci would decide to ignore Cla68's posts to Arbspace, annoying as they may be, would there be a problem? --Akhilleus (talk) 05:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

    As Akhilleus says. Both Mathsci and Cla68 are at fault here. Mathsci shouldn't cry foul about edits in unbanning requests, and Cla68 shouldn't use every opportunity to publicize his opinions about Mathsci. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:31, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    @Mathsci. They don't need to modify the ban, it's implied by default in all bans, and this type of exception is mentioned in WP:IBAN#Exceptions_to_limited_bans. Mathsci, your interpretation of bans is too restrictive, you are hurting you own position.
    @Cla68. General comments about how other editors are not helpful. You are supposed to explain how you don't deserve an iban. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:37, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    From all the solutions available, Fut.Perf's solution seems the most likely to reduce drama and collateral damage. Hopefully Mathsci will take the lue and he will stop reacting to Cla68's comments. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    • Cla68 can comment in arbitration amendment about him, and Mathsci suppose to know it, given his experience. Therefore, this request by Mathsci is inappropriate use of one-way interaction ban with Cla68. Of course if this request by Mathsci was legitimate, that would be a completely different matter. The only reasonable solution is to make this interaction ban mutual because one-way interaction ban is obviously not working. Sorry, I am not really familiar with history of the conflict My very best wishes (talk) 14:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    Mathsci now withdrew his request. However, filing this request will have negative consequences for people who asked to lift their sanctions at arbitration page (including Cla68). I guess none of their sanctions will now be lifted. I am not sure if it was Mathsci intention, but this actually worked. My very best wishes (talk) 20:38, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

    Statement by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

    I've been watching this sorry mess for the last few months with dismay, and this constant disruption needs to end. Sadly, this RfE is another example of Mathsci's battleground conduct. I don't know if this is best handled at AE or by ArbCom, but I don't see how this is going to end without a topic ban for Mathsci and an extension of the 1 way interaction bans to both ways. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

    @AE Admins: Before rushing through this proposal, some careful consideration should be given to the fact that Mathsci's battleground conduct extends beyond AE. So while limiting Mathsci's ability to file RfE is a step in the right direction, it does nothing to address the disruption caused outside of AE. Quite frankly, the reason why we're back here at AE again, is AE's inability to solve the problem. If AE isn't capable of solving this problem, hopefully ArbCom is. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

    Result concerning Cla68

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • Cla68, for clarity, are you denying that the comment in question was in regards to MathSci? If so, an explanation of what its intent was would be very helpful. Seraphimblade 03:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
      • I'm in general agreement with T. Canens, after reviewing the surrounding context. It would be extremely rare to prohibit someone from appealing sanctions against them (in fact, I know of no such case where that has ever been done), and comments in the context of an appeal in the proper venue (which ArbCom is one of, for an AE sanction) is broadly and generally considered an exception to a topic or interaction ban, since disallowing the sanctioned editor from discussing the matter in the appeal would essentially prohibit them from appealing at all. What are they going to say? "I'm appealing something I can't name, on grounds I can't discuss"? This is essentially a frivolous request given that, and I would support the restrictions proposed on future enforcement requests. Seraphimblade 04:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
        • Erm...FPAS, you went ahead and blocked? That seems a bit off to me too. I think given the disagreement here, we should've discussed it some more before applying any sanctions. I don't intend to unilaterally reverse you, or anything like that, but perhaps a bit slower on the trigger? Seraphimblade 07:44, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
          • The block was only for his actions right here during this thread, i.e. this posting in direct defiance of my immediately preceding warning . It's not meant to prejudge the overall outcome of this thread. But now that another editor has actually removed that last offending post, I have no problem with unblocking him again, as long as he agrees to keep it off. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
            • I'd unblock him anyway, seeing as there's absolutely no consensus here for your actions—or any consensus to remove that comment, considering the positions of Seraphim and Timotheus—but that's just me. Ed  07:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
              • FPAS, now that the comment has been restored by others rather than by Cla68, do you have any objection to an unblock? Seraphimblade 08:17, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
                • I'd like to first hear him commit to respecting the spirit of the interaction ban during these proceedings. He can of course comment on any proposed sanctions and defend himself, but he cannot make accusatory comments about Mathsci that go beyond this narrow scope. Since it wasn't Mathsci but Cla himself who first chose to interact with the other party in this instance, he cannot cite a generalized "right of response" as if it was a waiver of the interaction ban. An AE thread is not a self-produced get-out-of-jail-free card. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
                • To answer to your concrete question: (If they are still bound to the interaction ban, then) "what are they going to say?" Well, he could of course have said (in the Amendmend thread): "Yes, I believe our restrictions should be lifted, because I don't think they are achieving anything and I don't plan on pursuing any conflict with the other parties anyway." Or, he could of course have said (in this thread): "I was only commenting on an Arbcom page, which I believed was exempt from my restriction, so I don't think this was a violation". What he did instead say were things like: Mathsci is obsessive, Mathsci has not been making encyclopedic contributions, Mathsci's behaviour is a monster, etc. No, he is not entitled to say things like that, not here, not at Arbcom, nowhere, and he needs to stop. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
                  • I can see where you're coming from, as far as right of reply not being a carte blanche, but I also see that line being very difficult to draw. I'm especially hesitant there in the case of one-way interaction bans, where the conduct of the other party might necessitate a modification of the sanction. (Not saying that's the case here necessarily, just as a general principle.) I'm also very hesitant for AE to get involved with cases of conduct at ArbCom. ArbCom and the clerks are perfectly capable of warning, sanctioning, refactoring/redacting, etc., if someone gets out of line there, and I don't think getting AE involved is either necessary or helpful in such a case. Seraphimblade 09:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
                    • I'm afraid I must contradict you about the point of Arbcom being able to police their own pages. Of course, yes, they ought to be able to do so. But experience shows they never do. Clerks feel afraid of "censoring" participants, and arbs usually reserve their intervention until their final judgment, and leave participants to fend for themselves until that point. Arbcom is notoriously incompetent at preventing its own pages from becoming uncontrolled mud-fests. As for the difficulty of drawing the line, yes, the exact line may be difficult to draw, but there can be no doubt in my mind that wherever the line is, "ongoing, personal, years-long feud between an obsessive, established Misplaced Pages editor and an obsessive, established banned editor" was beyond that line. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:24, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
                      • In that last sentence what is it that takes it over that line? Other than the characterisation of "obsessive" I don't see anything apart from fact. I'd probably skirt around directly calling Mathsci obsessive, but his actions do have the appearance of obsession about these trolls. The vast majority of his recent interaction seems to relate to them - and this is in the middle of a serious illness, which was able to tear him away from much of his other editing but not this. Which is what is most deeply concerning, and the core reason I think the one remainign portion of this issue is Mathsci himself. --Errant 12:23, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
                        • Is that characterization as "obsessive" not enough to stamp it as beyond the line? It's a personal attack, period. Cla68 is prohibited from commenting about Mathsci, period. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    • I can't speak for Fut. Perf., but my patience is wearing thin. The amendment request at issue does request that Cla68's interaction ban be lifted. Cla68 is therefore allowed to comment in that thread unimpeded by the interaction ban. (I voice no opinion about the accuracy of Cla68's characterization of the overall situation, as that is irrelevant to the question whether the interaction ban applies.) Moreover, AE generally does not interfere in arbcom's own pages.

      I think Mathsci's enforcement requests are doing more harm than good, and I propose that we direct him

      1. to seek enforcement of the interaction bans at issue arising out of edits on any page whose title begins with Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests only from arbcom clerks or arbcom itself, and not from any other venue, including AE; and,
      2. to not seek enforcement of the interaction bans at issue arising out of edits on any other page by means of an on-wiki posting, unless he has obtained permission for such posting from any uninvolved administrator by email. T. Canens (talk) 04:06, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    • I have to say I disagree with my colleagues above, and I stand by the principles I have expressed elsewhere on similar matters: we must stop people from abusing Arbcom pages to circumvent their restrictions. If the community imposes interaction bans, it means: "person X is not allowed to pursue conflicts with person Y", anywhere, in any form. It does not mean: "person X is invited to escalate their conflict with Y to Arbcom". Of course Cla68 is free to comment on the idea of lifting his restriction. But he could have done so without using it as an opportunity for taking yet more cheap and unprovoked potshots against Mathsci. So, no, even when answering on an Arbcom page, he is not "free to comment in that thread unimpeded by the interaction ban". Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:37, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
      • Oh, and before I forget: to avoid another weeks-long blowup like we saw last time, this same principle goes for this thread here too. Cla68: on this page, you are allowed to talk about yourself. You are still not allowed to talk about Mathsci, and I will block you if you do (the way you did in your second and third posts in your statement above.) In return, Mathsci, please make absolutely no further posts in this thread. You've made your position clear; now please leave the rest to others. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
        • So, two admins comment in favor of Cla's position... and then a third admin unilaterally blocks him without consensus? I'm not an AE admin, but that seems a bit, erm, off. Ed  07:39, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    • As I said last time, I think action is needed here to limit MathSci. Good judgement appears worryingly absent from this request, and it is time to stop the cycle of comment - AE - comment - AE. I struggled to see a firm basis for Cla68's Iban in the first place as much of his criticism of MathSci (on my examination) seemed fair - he is obsessed with these trolls and constantly feeds them. Our role as administrators is to limit disruption to Misplaced Pages; I think T. Canens suggestion is sensible and is the first step to take, short of active sanctions like topic bans or blocks, to try and convince Mathsci to step back. (FWIW I vaguely support the block of Cla68 for feeding fuel on the fire here too, although we shouldn't even be in this situation). --Errant 09:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
      • Another option, which I am considering, is asking Arbcom to look broadly at the whole Mathsci issue (harassment, IBans, admin actions et al.) in a new case as the matter is a sprawling mess and needs some tidying up. --Errant 09:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
        • A new case was considered just a month or so ago, and rejected. This is just a rehashing of the same thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
          • Ok, so we should take the advice of arbitrators and, as admins with remit to protect Misplaced Pages from disruption, seek to end this matter for good. Which takes us back to T. Canens interesting proposal. Barring that probably a topic ban for Mathsci talking about or interacting with the banned sock on-wiki. Also a clear explanation to Cla68 that whilst commenting on the lifting of a restriction has widespread acceptance, it must be done in a seemly way. i.e. not used as a platform to lay into the other editor again. What does concern me about this is the long list of people Mathsci has managed to seek IBans against, some of whom it appears largely because they were critical of him... which is a bad precedent. It is clear to me, from reviewing significant portions of the recent history, that Mathsci is utterly unable to detach himself from this root conflict and has found a venue to very quickly silence people getting in his way. It is our responsibility as admins to end the cycle of disruption. -Errant 12:18, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
            • Wait, now you're mixing up the issue of Mathsci seeking enforcement of the interaction bans (against other established editors such as Cla68) with that of Mathsci seeking enforcment of the ban against the sockpuppeter. Two very different things. I could agree to something along the lines of T.C.'s suggestion regarding enforcement of the topic bans, if it is coupled with the reminder to Cla68 you speak of. I certainly would object to any restrictions about anti-sock actions. The banned sockpuppeter is still very much around; reporting him and disposing of his socks has become pretty routine and noiseless, and it certainly continues to be necessary. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
              • I'm trying to take a broad spectrum here and address the core issues that are continuing to lead to problems; and that runs back to the banned sock-puppeteer. I'd agree that our first step should be to try T.C's suggestion and see if that has an effect (at least it will reduce the amount of essays we have to read through :S). But I feel that my restriction from last time (restricting Mathsci to requesting action against the banned editor only via private methods) would end all of the problems for good. A key part of the reason that banned sock is hanging around is because he is obsessed by Mathsci, and by continuing to respond to the individual Mathsci is merely persisting this interest. I suggest that without us to break him out of this cycle, even with T.C's restriction, we will be back here with more essays and more discussion. Since suffering from a severe illness Mathsci's main contributions here appear to be the contimuation of old battles, and that is something we need to address. --Errant 12:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
                • Other alternatives; Mathsci takes a x month voluntary break from Misplaced Pages, which will help his recovery and possibly deter the sock. Or he takes the option of a "fresh start" to evade the sock's scrutiny. Sucks, but there are few options left. --Errant 12:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
                  • Nope, sorry, but that's an absolute non-starter. Suggesting a "voluntary" break in this context is nothing but a euphemism for a project ban, and that really means penalizing the victim and is completely out of proportion. Mathsci's actions regarding the banned sockpuppeter are not at issue in this thread at all; no disruption has occurred because of them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
                    • My sympathy for the Mathsci is limited every time I dig further into this sorry debacle. But fine, we can discuss solutions to the wider issues in a more appropriate forum at another time. I see Mathsci is back on the "feed the troll" game so I agree this should be closed out quickly with the agreed sanctions. --Errant 16:31, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    • I cannot agree with the notion that Arbspace should be a exempt zone from interaction bans, particularly in cases where the request in question is not an appeal of said ban. If this were a case where Cla were appealing his interaction ban, I could see a case that he needs to be allowed to mention Mathsci, but when it's another user seeking to have a topic ban lifted, there's no reason such a comment is necessary, and in this case, I can't see it as anything but potshots and an example of the very behaviour that leads to interaction bans in the first place. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 12:39, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
      • It is potshots (which I why he is at fault), but in fairness Cla68's IBan is included in the request so I would consider it reasonable for him to make a comment. --Errant 12:41, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
        • Even if he did need to make a comment about Mathsci, which I can't really see that he needed to (since he his comment didn't seem to at all address his ban, just make general comments), the way in which the comments were made seems clearly against the spirit of than ban (and, I would submit, the letter, too). I do tend to agree that there's a need for Mathsci to disengage in this case (from those who've been banned from interacting with him, not from the banned sockmaster), and that after this many requests, it may be necessary to make that happen rather than just hoping it will. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 12:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
          • On this understanding, and in the interest of reducing conflict, shall we just close this quickly? No further action, instruction to Mathsci to seek advice before making further iban enforcement requests, no-further-potshots reminder to Cla68 (WP:IBAN#Exceptions_to_limited_bans provides only for a limited exemption narrowly restricted to discussing the appealing editor's own sanction), and with that reminder I'll lift the block as being now obsolete? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

    Right. In the interest of getting this over with, and (I believe) in consensus with most of the other commentators here, I'll close this as follows:

    • Cla68 is reminded that he is expected to stick with the spirit of the existing interaction ban even while engaged in an Arbcom process. Per WP:IBAN#Exceptions to limited bans, he may appeal the ban and "address legitimate concerns about the ban itself", but may not use that as an opportunity for unnecessarily levelling criticism against the other party.
    • Mathsci is instructed to refrain from posting further enforcement requests regarding the interaction bans in question on-wiki without prior private consultation and permission from an uninvolved adminstrator. In the case of complaints arising from edits on Arbcom pages, he is instructed to seek enforcement only from Arbcom itself or the Arbcom clerks.

    Did I get that right? If somebody feels the wording should be tweaked, let me know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:25, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

    • Sounds good to me, with perhaps a change from "permission" from an uninvolved administrator to "agreement" or "consent" of an uninvolved administrator, because I think "permission" has a few unfortunate connotations that might be best avoided. John Carter (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
    • Sounds good to me as well. T. Canens (talk) 18:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
      • I would agree to the phrasing changes suggested by John, and otherwise would agree with this as the resolution. I also would add that Mathsci should preferably contact an admin involved in this request for such approval if any are currently active, as others may not be familiar with the situation, and that if Mathsci disagrees with a refusal to provide such approval, he should privately refer the matter to ArbCom rather than contacting a different admin with the same request. Seraphimbladepublic (talk) 18:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

    Darkness Shines

    Darkness Shines is warned under ARBPIA for his inappropriate comment. Nobody was lying; there was a glitch in Google Books. No other action taken. EdJohnston (talk) 17:36, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Darkness Shines

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Nableezy 00:36, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Darkness Shines (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 6 December Profanity laced tirade in which the editor accuses Sean.Hoyland of lying for having the outrageous audacity of linking to google books.
    2. 6 December Involved user closing a deletion debate that had already been relisted. This follows several unpleasant interactions between the two of us and just happens to be one of the last pages that shows up in my contributions.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Notified of the case
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Following a series of disputes, at Israeli settler violence and a DRV of an article created by DS that I nominated for speedy deletion (and before anybody accuses me of hounding, I saw the notification of the redirect for speedy on his talk page, saw the article redirected to, and saw the AfD, and made the obvious determination that the target article also qualified for speedy deletion. I emphatically did not go through his contributions to get there), DS goes on a bizarre tirade about restoring a source that is verified through google books because he has a different version in pdf form, in which he also accuses an editor of being dishonest. He then closes an AfD of an article in the topic area that had already relisted for lack of consensus as an obvious keep, an AfD that I had been involved in.

    @KC: 4 for the edit to Talk:Israeli settler violence, disruptive editing for the AfD close, which as far as I understand is covered under the standard discretionary sanctions (6). nableezy - 15:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    The disruptive part of the close was the obvious vindictive hounding that led the user to do so. Coupled with the claim below that because he had not edited that specific article he was entitled to close the AfD, I am left with an even firmer conviction that he lacks the judgment necessary to edit in a topic area as contentious as this. But Im cool with a warning if thats all you think it merits. nableezy - 16:16, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
    @EJ: following my nominating an article for speedy, DS just happens to close an AfD I had been involved in 5 days prior to it being scheduled for close. The Afd was not listed in any of the places that would lead an admin, much less a non-admin, to think that it needed closing at that time. Just how do you think DS found his way to an AfD that had been relisted 2 days prior to close it is as an "obvious keep", 5 days prior to it being scheduled to be closed? The user vindictively sought out conflict as payback for nominating an article he recreated for speedy deletion, and he did it in a not so subtle way. That he has the gall to claim that it is me displaying a battlefield mentality is either an incredible display of cognitive dissonance or a not at all funny joke. nableezy - 19:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
    Uhh, DS, Sean didnt vote to keep that article. How about you say how you got to that AfD and why you closed it 5 days prior to it being scheduled to close. That would be just awesome. I would love to see what explanation you can come up with. nableezy - 21:39, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Notified

    Discussion concerning Darkness Shines

    Statement by Darkness Shines

    All this does is show nableezy has a serious battlefield mentality. Let me know when I actually break a rule which can be brought to AE. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:57, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    Reply to A Quest For Knowledge, move by KC
    Exactly how was I involved in this AFD? I have not edited the article either. In fact I think I have edited all of three articles in that topic area. Hardly involved am I? There are no rule against the use of profanity on Misplaced Pages as it is not censored. And I have already apologised to Sean over the misunderstanding which lead me to calling him a liar. As I said, if I do anything which violates these sanctions give me a call. Till then toodle pip. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:52, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
    Oi Nab, given I had an argument with Sean do you not think if "vindictively sought out conflict" I would have closed as delete, what with Sean having voted keep? What with Sean and I have had quite the verbal ding done ovet this comment Darkness Shines (talk) 20:05, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Darkness Shines

    There is currently a discussion at AN regarding this same matter. I believe a contentious non-admin closure of an AfD would fall more closely under the purview of AN or ANI than AE. Seems the other issues would be better handled together with that in the AN discussion.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:46, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    If it wasnt predicated by hounding and didnt accompany the edit to Talk:Israeli settler violence I would agree with you. This isnt just about a random NAC gone wrong, it is about an editor demonstrating an obvious lack of the temperament and judgment necessary to edit in this topic area. nableezy - 00:55, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
    My concern is the potential for overlapping noticeboard discussions. Still, I suppose all that matters is that one of these discussions is given priority with regards to DS.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:05, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    Reading this, I'm not sure which part of the arbitration decision was violated. It just seems like two complaints. Was anything actually violated? Ryan Vesey 01:28, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    • Template:Cue - I know Darkness Shines for quite some time now. I can vouch for his good intentions and integrity behind that close. Yes, that close might not have seemed to be on par with the standards expected from an administrator closure but that is not a reason to bring a veteran editor under arbritration enforcements.

      The fact to keep in mind is that Darkness Shines here has created contentious articles about very notable topic that may seem offensive to some editors around here. For that, on some occassions he has had to face vilification and even, to some extent, retribution. (deliberately eschewed going on a diff-hunt) Mr T 11:43, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    @KC Darkness does not have to violate a specific arb ruling. Any violations of policy in the topic area can lead to the use of discretionary sanctions. I will say that profanity is not prohibited under any policy and it shouldn't be fucking prohibited. On AfD the relevant guideline is WP:NACD. It was clearly a contentious close and the wording of the close is rather absurd. Even an admin closing it that way would meet with some heat.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:01, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

    @Darkness Shines: You clearly cannot be dropping the F bomb or accusing other editors of lying. These are violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. You also appear to have closed an AfD on an article in a topic space that your involved with. Discretionary sactions require that you adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, including expected standards of behavior and editorial process. Your opening statement doesn't seem to acknowledge these mistakes, so I'm left wondering why you shouldn't be sanctioned? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:45, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Shrike

    DS already said sorry to Sean so I don't think any harsh sanctions are warranted here.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 16:57, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    Comment by Sean.hoyland

    I guess I should comment. There are thousands of profanity filled insults that would have had a degree of accuracy. DS picked exactly the wrong one. This calls his competence into question. He made a mistake. So did I by not spotting a mismatch between google books 'about this book' info and the actual book that the google page scans come from. He apologized. Nobody died. I'm not familiar with DS so I can't really comment on anything else. I will say though as a rule of thumb, having edited in the topic area for a long time, people who come into conflict with me (or Nableezy for that matter) are usually either sockpuppets or they have confused Misplaced Pages with a propaganda/public relations department and are here to advocate for some inanely divisive cause. Either way, just blocking them saves time. DS is not a sockpuppet. I don't know whether he is an advocate who makes consistently biased edits. Since he is a fan of plain speaking perhaps someone should ask him. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:01, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    Result concerning Darkness Shines

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • I'm seeing accusations of misconduct by DarknessShines; it all seems to have a sound rationale. The Afd closing and the incivility are problematic. I would appreciate a specific Arb ruling which he is thereby violating, however. Are you speaking of item #4? I'd say the profanity and hostility are clear violations there. I'm not seeing what remedy he violated with the Afd close, though. KillerChihuahua 14:50, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
      Thank you Nableezy. I'm not sure we need to do anything about the NAC at Afd; that was poor judgment, but not necessarily disruptive. I realize it could be viewed that way, but it has been handled at AN and I don't see the need to beat a dead horse. However, I will caution Darkness Shines to be more circumspect about closing Afds in the future.
      Regarding the hostility and language: While profanity or specific words are indeed not prohibited, we expect editors to make an effort to follow the policy on civility. Part of the linked edits include an NPA violation with a failure to AGF. "Sean was obviously dishonest" is in effect calling Sean a liar, a serious charge. Far better to AGF and say "Sean is mistaken". All that said, this is sanctionable behavior, but barely. I'm inclined to give a warning about NPA and civility and let it go at that. I must be gone for most of the day; if another AE admin feels this rises to the level that a sanction is called for, I do not demur. Darkness Shines, attempt to treat your fellow editors with more civility and respect. There is no need to make Misplaced Pages a hostile battleground. KillerChihuahua 15:36, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) I don't see that Darkness Shines was a party to the original case, (FWIW), and I'll note that the discretionary sanctions linked in the request have been struck and superseded by this motion, so my first question would be "have any restrictions been imposed by an un-involved admin.? Now, the "close" was certainly not an "obvious" one (and has since been reverted), and I have seen behavior issues regarding DS brought to AN and AN/I in the past. So I do have to wonder if perhaps an AN topic ban discussion might not be the more appropriate venue here - unless there are other links I've overlooked. — Ched :  ?  15:48, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
      We don't need to go to AN to topic ban; we can simply do it here. KillerChihuahua 15:59, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
      Given the circumstances, I think I'd prefer to support that over a block or project ban as DS is a long term, and valued member of the community. Perhaps time in areas where he/she is less emotionally vested would restore some perspective and reduce a bit of the vitriol we're seeing. — Ched :  ?  16:08, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
      I apologise if I was unclear, I suggest a warning only. I was only clarifying that topic ban is within the remit of AE, not that I thought that was the best solution. KillerChihuahua 12:24, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
    • Regarding Nableezy's point #1 in this complaint, "Profanity laced tirade in which the editor accuses Sean.Hoyland of lying for having the outrageous audacity of linking to google books." It appears that the sourcing issue about a book called Streets of Crocodiles is at the point of being resolved. See a comment by Nableezy on Talk:Israeli settler violence dated 15:40, 7 December 2012 (UTC). Sean Hoyland points out that Google Books may have an incorrect header record for Streets of Crocodiles. This still doesn't excuse vehemence of DS saying

      Just a fucking moment here, Sean says above he has this book and the IP is wrong. But the IP was right and Sean was obviously dishonest. In fact Sean says he had the book in front of him, I now have the PDF of said book, and it says fuck all of the sort for which it was being cited. Does this not fall under the sanctions within this topic area? Darkness Shines (talk) 22:54, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

      .
    It looks like this comment deserves a warning. —EdJohnston (talk) 15:57, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
    Per Ched's comment below, I take note that DS has apologized to Sean for his remark. Nableezy, what do you mean by 'obvious vindictive hounding' in your comment above? EdJohnston (talk) 17:23, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
    Nableezy's hounding complaint appears thin. DS's non-admin close of the AfD was an example of poor judgment, but nobody has documented a *pattern* of improper closes on his part. And, unless somebody thinks DS has a bad record for his long-term editing of ARBPIA articles, I'm not seeing enough here for a restriction. I suggest closing this with just a warning for the personal attack. EdJohnston (talk) 22:48, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

    Evildoer187

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Evildoer187

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Moxy (talk) 17:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Evildoer187 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles
    "All articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict broadly construed are under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related. "
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 11:42, December 8, 2012 - No edit summary
    2. 00:32, December 8, 2012 - - No edit summary
    3. 08:11, December 7, 2012 - The documentation is right in front of you, you just choose to ignore it
    4. 16:54, December 6, 2012 - No edit summary
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on 12:34, December 7, 2012 by Moxy (talk · contribs)
    2. Warned (reminded of the 1 revert rule) on 06:11, December 8, 2012 by Nishidani (talk · contribs)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint
    Not sure this is the best way to proceed as there are many involved in the edit war. However after this post to quote "I have just reverted your edit (it's been 24 hours, I believe)". 24 hours is not the point - 1 revert rule is in place to make editors talk - not a invitation to revert at will after 24 hours. I believe we need to get all talking over editing and I believe this will send a message to all involved to talk it out.17:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
    Notification here


    Discussion concerning Evildoer187

    Question to Moxy:Why did you only bring the request only regarding Evildoer187?

    It seem to meet that at least one more user has broke 1RR.For example Nishidani

    1. 20:14, 6 December 2012 (edit summary: "There is no source listing Israelites as indigenous under the lead def. and the world org sources. As per talk")
    2. 10:22, 7 December 2012 (edit summary: "Removed wp:or essay from what is a 'list. No documentation supports the entry, and the essay is pure WP:synth")
    3. 17:41, 7 December 2012 (edit summary: "/* Western Asia */")

    --Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 17:44, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

    User:Nishidani did do so but as seen linked above and here he is aware of his mistake. However as linked above and here Evildoer187 seem to have every intent on reverting again.Moxy (talk) 17:51, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

    Statement by Evildoer187

    I only reverted it because the 24 hour limit had passed. I will revert my revert if that resolves the issue.Evildoer187 (talk) 17:55, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Evildoer187

    User Nishadani also violated 1RR, at least 3 times.

    1. 2 3 4 Moxy, it seems that the only reason why you did not report Nishadani was because he support the same political POV as you.

    It looks like the page will be locked for 2 months. I recommend leaving the West Asia section as Bedouin, Marsh Dwellers, and Samaritans, i.e. what Maunus suggested. For the time being, it's best to omit anything pertaining to Jews or Palestinians.Evildoer187 (talk) 04:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
    I suggest sticking with this version of the article until we reach a final agreement. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=List_of_indigenous_peoples&diff=527053471&oldid=527053378 Evildoer187 (talk) 04:17, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


    I second this suggestion very strongly. Maybe with a few additions, but absolutely excluding Israelites, Arabs, Jews and Palestinians, for the time being.HaleakalAri (talk) 04:39, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

    Result concerning Evildoer187

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • This dispute at List of indigenous peoples seems to have the potential to run for a long time. There is endless opportunity for low-quality reasoning and original research, coupled with the word 'indigenous' which is practically a Rorschach subject to a great variety of interpretations. I would suggest placing a long period of full protection, such as two months. Meanwhile, as I scanned back through the history I found this version by Middayexpress from October which seems to be the last one prior to the current edit war. I suggest that admins restore that version while discussion proceeds on the talk page. Consider using an WP:RFC to reach agreement. There seems to be a UN definition of 'indigenous' which might be used to guide the analysis. EdJohnston (talk) 18:11, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
     Done page protection request - Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection#List of indigenous peoples.Moxy (talk) 18:55, 8 December 2012 (UTC) Removed Moxy's post here. My comment was not a request for someone to file at RFPP. It was a proposal for an admin action with which to close the present AE. The question will hopefully get more participation here before we close this. The protection would be an easy call, except it's rather long. The revert to an old version will ideally find support. EdJohnston (talk) 02:43, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
    It appears that Evildoer187 self-reverted at least one of his changes, per his comment above. Nishidani has asked that other editors simply revert his change if he inadvertently goes past 1RR, and he has apologized for this particular lapse at this edit. He also left a comment at User talk:Evildoer187#Block talk acknowledging making 'the same slip of two reverts in 24 hours'. I left a notice at Talk:List of indigenous peoples asking for feedback about the proposal for full protection. EdJohnston (talk) 03:38, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

    Room for improvement

    I am new to this discussion and editing conflagration, but it seems that in addition to Bedouins, Kurds should be on the list; I added them earlier. There is a fair amount of discussion relating to "contemporary status" regarding the characterization of a people as indigenous, not anachronistic claims related to "origin" or the like. It would seem that the focus should be on history and politics, not religion and genetics, but the discussion has been hijacked. The claim being made by the pro-Israel group is clearly an ahistorical claim. Given the references in the UN document I cited on the article Talk page, it seems that Palestinian Arabs in Israel should be on the list as well as Bedouin Arabs. The overall question of Palestinians in the Palestinians territories would seem to be much more difficult, and perhaps intractable at present, but it seems clear that there is no basis in modern history to include Jews, let alone the anachronistic "Israelites" on the list. --Ubikwit (talk) 15:34, 9 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit