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Battle of the Line

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Battle of the Line (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Non-notable fictional battle. While there is some independent coverage of this topic in reliable sources, none discuss it in sufficient detail (i.e. more than a few lines) to warrant a full article, and there are no sources which suggest that it has any significance outside the Babylon 5 universe. Claritas § 22:39, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

• Keep 14 sources, 5 of which are pretty much unassailably independent reliable sources, discuss it. GNG is met and then some. Jclemens (talk) 02:04, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Unassailably independent reliable sources ? Let's go through them.

The Babylon File Volume 2: The Definitive Unauthorized Guide to J. Michael Straczynski's Babylon 5 does not qualify as a a reliable secondary source. If you have a look at it, it contains no useful secondary analysis of Babylon 5, it's a completely inuniverse description of the plot. It's published by a minor publisher by an author with no scholarly credentials. Science fiction is a topic which is widely covered by academic journals, so there is no need to use non-academic texts unless they are of the highest quality.

The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 is a fan produced guide, obviously not a RS.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/yates/yates73.html is a reliable source by a scholar (although not one with relevant expertise), but it mentions the "battle of the line" only once, and has a much broader primary topic.

Role-playing game obviously a primary source.

Johnson-Smith is arguably a RS, but only trivially mentions the main subject of this article, no significant coverage.

"Babylon 5's Blueprint for the Archetypal Heroes of Commander Jeffrey Sinclair and Captain John Sheridan with Ambassador Delenn" is obviously about the characters, and not the battle, but it would be helpful for you to quote from this article to see which text you are using to verify notability due to the paywall.

Novelisation is a primary source.

TV.com, space.com do not have adequate editorial standards to be RSs.

Please explain how this constitutes significant coverage in multiple third-party reliable sources. Claritas § 09:35, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Sure: your definition of a "reliable secondary source" and "trivial" as used above are, respectively, unsupportably more narrow and expansive than consensus. And again, per WP:SOURCEACCESS, your inability to read what I have found isn't my problem--if you want to call it not RS or trivial, then the onus is on you to get access and disprove its applicability. Jclemens (talk) 15:34, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

That's completely incorrect. The burden falls entirely upon you to verify notability. It's quite clear from our policy on reliable sources that sources should be scholarly or of a scholarly standard. --Claritas § 18:28, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN is about verification of article content, not verification of notability. If anyone was to quote enough of a source to verify that it contains significant coverage then that would go beyond fair use, and so would be a copyright violation. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:51, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Jclemens has not shown that the sources cited even verify the article content. This is just a strategy to prevent the deletion of this worthless trash. Claritas § 21:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

That's right, I haven't. WP:BEFORE expects you to find deficits with them--which you have not--before nominating an article for deletion. I don't need to do your job for you; you need to do it. Jclemens (talk) 04:55, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

• Delete - WP:FANCRUFT --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 21:32, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
• Keep, on the grounds that reference 6 ("About Michael O'Hare's Departure". GEnie, via The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5.) is a direct quote of series creator J. Michael Straczynski and therefore constitutes a reliable, non-fictional-world source per WP:RS, regardless of its inclusion via The Lurker's Guide fansite; and further that references 3, 10 and 11 from The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 should constitute reliable secondary sources - since the WP article on the guide itself quotes Straczynski acknowledging "The Lurker's Guide and Grimm for his years of help and support, illustrating The Guide's significant central role in the development of Babylon 5 fandom, and the series itself"<emphasis mine>. The quote is from the Babylon 5 5th season DVD release (which in the context of the Lurker's Guide article is a reliable secondary source).Vulcan's Forge (talk) 04:47, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Per WP:GNG, sources don't just have to be RSs, but also "significant" and "independent", and all the sources for this article fail one of these criteria. If you neglect these fundamental aspects of notability on Misplaced Pages, I can't see how you could possibly recommand to keep this article. I encourage you to either try to find new arguments or to change your recommandation.Folken de Fanel (talk) 17:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
• Keep per the arguments of Jclemens and Vulcan's Forge. BOZ (talk) 15:34, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Both Clemens and Vulcan's Forge arguments have been rebutted.Folken de Fanel (talk) 17:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
• Keep I agree with Jclemens's comment from the previous AFD for this we were both in. "as a notable plot element of a major fictional universe which has received print coverage outside the work itself." This major bit is found in the television series, made for television movies, books, and the comic books. The coverage found is sufficiently referenced in the article to prove its notable. Dream Focus 14:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Jclemens' essay on notability and his very loose criteria are not what should prevail here, but only the GNG. And GNG is obviously not met, as the coverage is insufficient to prove any notability.Folken de Fanel (talk) 17:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
• Delete, because the sources proposed either do not meet WP:GNG (not independent or significant enough) or are not about the subject of the article. Those who /voted "keep" on claims that GNG is met or that sourcing is "independent"/"sufficient"/etc clearly need to take a closer look at WP:GNG, which they obviously don't understand:

1. Creator Straczynski's comments (sources 6 and 7) from GEnie are his own, personal messages self-published through the GEnie online service and are the 1990's equivalent of personal blog comments. Though they can be used as RS, they cannot be used to assert notability since GNG requires sources to be "independent of the subject", which "excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject or its creator. For example, self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, the subject's website, autobiographies, and press releases are not considered independent". As the comments are not part of an interview (for example) from an independent magazine and the Battle isn't brought up by an independent commentator, these GEnie comments are not independent and don't demonstrate notability.
2. As to The Babylon File, source 2 (as used in the "Plot significance section") isn't about the Battle but about "Sinclair's memory loss". Doesn't pass GNG which states that "sources address the subject directly in detail" which is not the case here, the subject is not a character's amnesia. Other than that, The Babylon File vol. 1/2 are exclusively used for plot summary, which does not qualify as "significant coverage" going beyond "a definition of that topic" (WP:WHYN).
3. Source 8 contains nothing "more than a trivial mention", indeed, a single sentence.
4. Source 9 isn't a comment "directly" about the subject, but about the character itself. The Battle in itself is not even mentionned but only alluded to and bundled up with all of the character's "past", this is even less than a trivial mention.
5. All the other sources are just episode recaps (so trivial mentions not going beyond a definition of the topic) or about something else entirely.Folken de Fanel (talk) 17:50, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

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