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Editor Retention

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Do deletions at Misplaced Pages lead to editor attrition?

Just before this unsigned/undated entry disappears into the archives, I just wanted to say that for me the biggest issue at Misplaced Pages, from day one and until today, was and still is rampant Deletions. Ottawahitech (talk) 10:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

That's true for the 25% of newbies who start by creating a new page, and it is an especially big problem for the minority of them who are creating stuff we want but get tagged by sloppy speedy deleters. However I'm not convinced that page deletion is such a problem for the 75% of newbies who start by editing existing articles, I think that they are more likely deterred by unexplained reverts and that all editors, newbies and old hands, are damaged by the shift from SoFixIt to template bombing that happened about five years ago. ϢereSpielChequers 15:39, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• @WereSpielChequers, thanks - useful statistics - where are they from? I am also curious to find out how many articles are deleted daily under the different deletion processes? Looking at the deletion log it is easy to determine that there are definitely over a thousand pages deleted every day - that makes hundreds of thousands of pages deleted per year! Ottawahitech (talk) 02:16, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

How deletions damage efforts to retain editors

• Here is a link to a deletion discussion that starts with these words "THIS ARTICLE IS PURELY TRIVIAL". What a welcome for a brand new editor who just joined Misplaced Pages on 26 October 2012!
• On the flip side, I see someone attempting to remove an article started by Simon Pulsifer who has been around since 2001. Would you blame Pulsifer for not sticking with this thankless volunteer job? Ottawahitech (talk) 03:43, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

New editors vilified in the deletion process

Here is an example where an established editor is trying to have an article deleted by whipping up sentiments against its new editor. Note that every time this new editor tries to participate in the discussion this text is appended to his signature:

has only contributed to the article(s) under discussion for deletion and AFD

Ottawahitech (talk) 15:06, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

"You have been warned"

Today's (Nov 17, 2012) caption:

WARNIN G! Due to the large size of AfD and the variable (but more modest) sizes of TfD, CfD, SfD, RfD, and WP:CP, this page is large! You have been warned.

And the conundrum is: How should an admin close when there is apparently a clear consensus to keep (possibly by a multitude of SPA votes and votes by editors who are not aware of policies, when the 'keep' closure would clearly conflict with inclusion policies or guidelines? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Admins should have some leeway when the apparent consensu is mostly by newcomers - between the possibility that these votes don't take our policies into account, and the possibilit of sockpuppetry, I think that in such cases, admins may ignore the newcomers. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 21:27, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• @ Kudpung กุดผึ้ง, @ עוד&מישהו, yes, I can see why some believe admins should have discretion. But, what about the uncertainty this introduces into the system when different admins use wildly different criteria? (btw I assume we Are taking about Admins closing as Delete even when the deletion discussion has a clear Keep consensus?)Ottawahitech (talk) 02:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

what happens when admins exercise discretion in closing deletion discussions?

The following link leads to discussion on an admins talk page after he excercised discretion in closing a deletion discussion with 15 keep votes, and 14 delete votes. example of what happens when admin uses discretion in closing Ottawahitech (talk) 16:42, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

• This is what happens Larry, do you see what happens Larry? No, seriously, I don't know what point you are trying to make by singling out this particular instance of an a close being contested. It's a fairly regular occurrence and I don't see why you are posting links to it here. Could you be more clear about what it is you are trying to say? Beeblebrox (talk) 16:50, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Admins closing as Delete even when the deletion discussion has a clear Keep consensus?

Can this really be happening? Ottawahitech (talk) 19:05, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

It's called supervoting, and it bypasses discussion, and it sucks, and it's bad practice, and it breaks faith with the community, and it's kinda rapey, and if editors admitted they'd be doing this during their RfA interviews, they'd be nowhere goddamn fast. --Lexein (talk) 22:31, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

• @Lexein, Thanks for participating here and helping me understand the complex rules regarding deletions at Misplaced Pages. I knew that admins are supposed to act according to the community's consensus in deletion discussions, but did not know that the example I provided here was not the only exception. Is this common? Ottawahitech (talk) 03:21, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Once a year is too often, but I have no idea how often it really happens. I observe that just happened 272 times, though, if that's any indication. So no more for about 272 years would be about right, by my lights. --Lexein (talk) 05:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

(Sorry for not linking, the "272" number is a quote of User talk:Koavf, with whom I had stern words about his representations of policy in his recent image deletion nominations.) --Lexein (talk) 20:00, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• I believe Lexein is referring to a Deletion Review that has been started at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2012 November 25. If I understand this right this particular admin has deleted 272 pages against consensus? Ottawahitech (talk) 15:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive242#Admin smoke signals needed. GiantSnowman 15:35, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• It wasn't clear until I looked at the DRV and realised we're talking about using non-free images, which it's good practice to err on the side of not including them. Do you have any examples of articles being supervoted on? --Ritchie333 15:40, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• If this is the admin who is deleting image files against clear community consensus to retain them in the cases being made reference to here it should be understood that this admin has a long history of engaging in this practice often resulting in these deletions being reversed after a review is requested. This admin also has a history of arbitrarily removing long standing "non-free" images from articles even though they have been correctly justified and provided with complete conforming rationales for their use. After unilaterally removing the image files the admin then also immediately deletes the images themselves without going through the normal community review process on the specious grounds that they are "orphaned" non-free files. These practices are contrary to both the spirit and letter of WP policy. Centpacrr (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

So is WP:FORUMSHOPPING (✉→BWilkins←✎) 01:11, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Editors pushed to work in areas they have no interest in

Example: I do not wish to participate in discussions, especially endless, fruitless, inconsistent deletion discussions. However, this is all I have been doing recently, because I feel obligated to try and save dozens of others’ contributions that are now on the chop-block after the stealthy deletion of a wikiproject that housed those articles which are now under a concerted attack. Ottawahitech (talk) 16:37, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Easier to remove content than to add to the knowledge base

Deleting takes much less effort than finding and adding new information which is very demoralizing for editors who are trying to add and edit existing articles. Ottawahitech (talk) 14:55, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Less than a minute to nominate articles for deletion

One of the articles which I started has been nominated for deletion It took the nominator less than ONE minute to do the following

Create a deletion discussion page

Nominate the articled for deletion

Notify me of the deletion discussion

Add it to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion

It took me HOURS to create this article (which may survive the deletion process this time, but there is nothing to stop this nominator from nominating this article for deletion again and again). Why would anyone want to contribute new articles to Wikipeida under those circumstances? Ottawahitech (talk) 20:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't know which article you're referring to, but it's true that the precise steps you've listed take less than a minute, much less with automation such as Twinkle. I'd hope editors would spend far longer than a minute considering most articles before sending them to deletion, even a minimal job of looking for sources takes far longer than that.

That's a problem with deletion, but not the only one. Most articles that appear at AfD end up being pretty solidly delete or keep by consensus, only a fraction are really hard calls. Most of the "solid" AfDs close delete. So, there are certainly a fair number of articles that presumably would never have been created if the article creator had understood Misplaced Pages's requirements. Why didn't we tell them before they put in all that work? --j⚛e decker 21:57, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

We didn't tell them, because there's nothing out there that tells them. Instead of the stats-obsessed Foundation pursuing their policy of quantity instead of quality, leaving it up to the community and the admins to sort the wheat from the chaff that such an expansion policy generates, they should be working on the long promised new landing page for new users/new creators. All the Wikis would benefit from such a feature so it's not just an appeal from en.Wiki. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:46, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Calling ALL editor retention editors!!! Red Alert! We need your attention now!

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User talk:Malleus Fatuorum has retired! This is his right (the only true right an editor really has on Misplaced Pages) but his reasons are a true retention concern. I don't always get along with the editor, but his leaving is of major concern to our project and the over all Misplaced Pages project. PLEASE take a minute to post on his talkpage and try (in a very civil manner) to convince him that this is NOT the right momne to leave. His absense is a great loss and is NOT an improvement to Misplaced Pages. I am pleading with you all to find a moment to encourage his staying! His work and abilities cannot be easily replaced! This is a major editor retention issue! Get to work. I beg you!--Amadscientist (talk) 23:48, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

If you are concerned about editor retention, please consider that Malleus's abrasive behavior has led me to consider leaving the project in the past. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 23:53, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Look. I have had very bad run ins with Malleus, but please don't think of yourself only on this issue. That is not the true spirit of this project. Editor retention means more to me than what abuse I have taken from any editor. Get over it and get on. Stay calm and carry on!--Amadscientist (talk) 00:20, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

You should be saying that to Malleus, not me. He's the one who retired (again) as a result of his own incivility. I'm not too thrilled about this thread, mainly because I don't look forward to being vilified for daring to complain about his rudeness. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 00:32, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

You should not be vilified for being honest and expressing your concerns. I just ask that you remember that we all have to accpet others for who they are and just try to encourage better behavior. I won't make this about you AS.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:02, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate that. However, I'm not sure that some other editors will take the same approach. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 01:04, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

You may have noticed that I placed it on Jimbo Wales talk before it happened. He was never rude to me, quite the contrary. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:39, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, you are a hard one to be rude to. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 00:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

• Malleus is a good guy that takes it too far with the language some times, and can be "grumpy". Sometimes more than grumpy. That said, I accept him as he is. I have pointed out when I thought he was doing something over the line (sometimes in private). He's someone I just started working with on an article and found him to be exceptionally easy and helpful to work with, even if it didn't always work that way with everyone else. I've already talked to him several times. Actually, we chatted regularly anyway. I accept that Malleus is likely not coming back, and understand why. This wasn't a singular issue or one time event. I expect to keep in contact with him, as I appreciate and enjoy his perspective on a number of issues, but he won't simply be talked into returning with kind words. It is way more complicated than that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:51, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I try to say wherever I can that civility is not using some words but an attitude to respect people, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:55, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

While I am aware of the complications...I don't accept that he can't be persuaded....OK, more like...I am not persuaded that the attempt is not worth the effort. There...that sounds more accurate to what I think. We can try, can't we. He is an important part of our community and every effort should be taken to retain him!--Amadscientist (talk) 01:05, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

• There seems to be some doubt in people's minds here, so let me state categorically that Malleus will not be returning; not now not ever. I've explained to Dennis and several others why that is. The recent ArbCom request was certainly a triggering event, but not entirely for the obvious reasons. I'm sure Misplaced Pages will do quite well enough without me. Or it won't, whatever. Malleus Fatuorum 01:16, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

  Thanks for stopping by Malleus. I will miss you here a great deal, friend. I do understand and hope you find joy and fulfillment in whatever you pursue next. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:24, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about too much in terms of overall editor retention. He's just one editor, and he's really sui generis. He may have been extraordinarily good (don't know personally) but on the other hand he alienated some editors, plus of course the constant drama takes up man-hours, and then there's the overall them-versus-us vibe and so forth that he brought to the community. So meh. Nothing really to learn from or do about this special unique case, I'd say. Herostratus (talk) 03:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

See, I think a little differently, but at the end of the day it is more about what he wants. I made the effort, because I felt he was worth it. But as Herostratus says...meh. For me, I will look at the overwhelming facts that he was, at the end....outdated by those the Us against them" mentality. I always felt he was one of the better grizzily types. So I will look on the bright side. Maybe it will help the GA project without the attitude. Of course we all know there is pleanty of attitude there and elsewhere. But I hate the way he is leaving because it does look like he is being shoved away. I tried to pull him back, but I am just a single editor without much interaction with, what looks to be, more than many want.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Look at it this way: While some editors may be more important to the project than others, no single editor's leaving will cause the project to die. In other words, it's not the end of the world, even though it apparently is ending for other reasons ;). AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 03:59, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I have to say I am FAR more put off by dickish admins, admin wanna-bes, and passive aggressive POV types than I am by folks like Malleus. I think the Malleus case is of interest in that the passive aggressive and dickish types tend to swarm around him. They, and the cultures that protect/encourage them, are still here. I will be interested to see where their focus shifts IF in fact Malleus remains gone this time. One factor that was often ignored in the Malleus saga was the role that baiting and provoking behavior by others played in his outbursts (and yes, that behavior WAS ignored...just mentioning it doesn't address in a real or meaningful role it played in the whole saga...and it has clearly factored into other semi-departures by others). No one seems especially interested in that side of things. His departure encourages that sort of behavior ("see...it worked with him") unless others take a stand against it. It's amazing to me how often those behaviors are excused or brushed off (Pesky talks about this a great deal, but often to what feels like an empty room). I'm just one editor, and don't matter in the great scheme of things, but each "one editor" that is driven away by the nasty behavior that hides behind AGF and false civility is another loss. I also suspect that there's no real appetite in the community at large for taking on that culture, if for no other reason than it's difficult to address in a collective manner by a group that has a notoriously short attention span. Intothatdarkness 15:06, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Yup. Great post. I cringe to think that the Eddie Haskells are taking over the place. Gandydancer (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

• We can't all agree on what "civility" even means here. This is partially due to the fact that we are such a culturally diverse group. This is why I've stayed away from blocking anyone unless the behavior crosses the line in a clear and obvious way. Of course, I've received some static from others that I've been too slow and too tolerant, which is probably true in some cases. "Civility" is likely to be the big issue for the next few years. I say few years, as I don't have any hope that we can quickly find consensus on it. The recent Arb election turned into a referendum on it, and half the Arb cases seem focused on it. I don't want to name names, or point fingers (that is one of the few rules we have) and I will be the first to admit I'm not smart enough to come up with a simple definition or rule and I have tried. I do think that those that view civility more strictly than I do have the best intentions of Misplaced Pages at heart, even if I think that viewing it too rigidly does more damage than being more tolerant. We are human, after all, we will bump heads or be rude sometimes, myself included. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:45, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm honestly not sure it's about "civility" anymore, Dennis, but rather cause and effect. There is a tendency in many cases here to focus on the effect and not necessarily the cause. As Gandydancer pointed out, Eddie Haskell types tend to thrive in such an environment. They can provoke others in a seemly civil manner, confident that the community writ large will normally pay more attention to the outburst than they do the events that led up to same. It's not necessarily a healthy culture when bad behavior remains unchecked, but I contend that it's also not healthy when someone in an authority position can refer to those who elected them as the "puling masses" and escape without many batting an eye. The assorted Malleus incidents also pointed out a tendency (highlighted again by Pesky in many places) to tar those who may not agree with something he said but also don't agree with a proposed punishment (and let's not kid ourselves...in most cases we are talking about punishment here) as members of his "posse" in what certainly felt like an attempt to stifle discussion. I'll drop the stick now, since it's likely to make no headway, but I wanted to point out that the issue is more one of culture than specific buzzwords or individuals. Intothatdarkness 17:08, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more. WP projects a hostile and abusive environment. (I didn't notice it right away as newbie, but after awhile the shit-throwing got on me, and it was a little hard not to notice then.) Fact is, Malleus has never initiated any shit. He just doesn't take it. He tells people where to go, who deliver hostility and abusiveness. And then ... blame Malleus. Nothing could be more fundamentally unfair and unjust. There are two, at most probably three ways to deal with a situation when you're given crap (hostility, abuse). One is the "Jesus" route, the one prescribed by WP "policy", to ignore it and not respond to it. (How many of us are Jesuses? When I signed up to edit Misplaced Pages, I don't recall committing that I'd have the patience of a God, and walk on water, that I'd be expected to heal the sick, and turn water to wine.) The other is to respond as Malleus does: to give the initiator some appropriately-measured flak back. That is what Malleus does. (And he does it ideally, by not carrying long-term grudges, as much as humanly possible. He blames his "bad memory" for this, but I'm sure it is a conscious, ethical choice. Carrying a grudge is a tiring, self-defeating negative energy. Just plain inefficient, and Malleus is as efficieint with his energies as he is with words.) Has anyone done a study of flair-ups with Malleus involved, to pinpoint the causes? Was Malleus "offending", or "defending" with his giving someone flak? I think no one has done such a study. Though it could be done. I put my money on that Malleus has been in a defending posture, whenever giving someone shit back -- not the offender. I wager that is 100 percent the case. So the only fucking moral conclusion here, is that shame shame Malleus for not being a Jesus, and that it is not Malleus's fault, his responses have been healthy responses in a very sick environment, the current culture of hositility and abusiveness that exists and has existed at WP for some time. ) It's the environment, plain and simple. If an editor responds to hostility and abusiveness in any manner not "Jesus-like", he or she is more likely than not, the one selected for sanction. This purpose of this Project is in part to retain good editors!? And one of the best has left in disgust?? (Time to talk it up and get to the bottom of it, me thinks! And not "golly gee golly gee this problem is so difficult that gee whiz gee whiz all we know what to do is keep on keeping on". Yeah, right. ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:24, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

If an editor hasn't commited vandalism, sockpuppetry or continious edit wars? then he/she shouldn't be blocked or banned. I find that editors tend to want to make other editors 'go away', too often. GoodDay (talk) 18:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm a little bit alarmed by this thread. Your own project front page says "Editor retention is a Misplaced Pages-wide problem. The focus of this wikiproject is NOT on individuals," but you're now attempting to spend project resources and time pursuing one editor, because you collectively seem to feel he is personally more important than others. Guys, you need to decide whether this is a project that focuses on making the atmosphere of Misplaced Pages more hospitable to editors, or whether it's one that focuses on dashing from one editor's talk page to the next, telling them how much more important than others they are. If you want to retain editors, as a group, you should concentrate more on community-level trends ("What's causing Malleus to feel so uncomfortable here? How can that be changed to help everyone?") than on individuals ("Oh no, Malleus is leaving! Everyone, quick - beg him to stay!"). A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:42, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

That's what my comments are aimed at. There are wider trends and mindsets at work, and there seems to be a reluctance to deal with those broader trends.Intothatdarkness 18:48, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

• When it comes to negative threads about individuals, I'm quick to shame them shut. When it is a comment about a problem to help an individual, people tend to be more lenient and just steer the discussion in a proper direction when possible. Obviously, individuals names will get mentioned in the larger discussion, but we should focus on the larger issues, simply to understand. So yes Fluff is right, the larger issues are what matters here. Personally, I am stumped as to what we can do at Misplaced Pages to solve this. There is no consensus on where to draw the line with civility and it looks like it has broken into two camps. The lack of clarity on "Civility" is dividing and conquering Misplaced Pages right now. I could adjust to and live with any set of rules on civility if they were clear, but it is a moving target. I am not sure if we can make a set of rules that you could just look at and instinctively know how to apply it to every situation. I tried and I can't. It's why I set the bar pretty low and don't make civility blocks. Well, that and the fact that they can easily backfire and make the situation worse, again due to the clarity and the perceived unfairness, a Catch 22. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:19, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
• Intothatdarkness made some important points; unlike Malleus, I've never been blocked for incivility and I've yet to choose to retire, permanently or otherwise. But like Malleus, there have been times I have been baited and bullied, mostly for my content contributions and defense of them, until I am ready to quit. The only reason I'm still around is that I have a tolerance level with conflict that may be a little higher than some people's. I also don't like to let the bullies win. So I cry, I pound my head on the keyboard (at least figuratively) but then I dust myself off and start again. However, if the only people who can survive this toxic atmosphere are the masochists and the trolls, we have a problem. Malleus is a curmudgeon, but he's not a troll; but a lot of his attackers fail to understand the difference. I do notice a certain increase in toxicity this time of year in general (seasonal affective disorder for northern hemisphere users?) but not sure if there is an actual correlation. Montanabw 21:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)I also updated that mission statement to make it clear. We do talk about individuals who leave, get updates here when someone leaves, we have lists of missing editors them around here for that matter, but the real focus is still on the larger issues of why and what can we do to fix it. Typically when someone leaves or there is an editor retention concern about an individual, someone just goes and offers them an ear, but we don't bring those discussions back here. One thing we do NOT tolerate is pointing fingers at individual editors or admins and lay blame on them. But yes, we do help some individuals, in particular, new editors that are lost. We refer a lot of people to the Teahouse, for instance, as we don't try to duplicate their good work. Some members also work over there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:55, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

There doesn't seem any "lack of clarity" about civility on Misplaced Pages. Civility police rule here, and have succeeded in wrecking Malleus and disheartening significant contributors. It's not just happening on Misplaced Pages, the rot seems to be setting in. --Epipelagic (talk) 22:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I understand the frustration, but this isn't helpful. Both sides yelling at each other won't fix it. We have to find a way to actually bring the sides together, I just don't know how. Pushing them farther apart hurts the process, however. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:25, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is not helping. There's plenty of editors quick to cast the blame on the "civility police", but I'd like to know what is so hard about treating other people with respect, even if they don't have the most impressive edit count or GA total? A lot of times, the content creators complain about getting mistreated and bullied, yet these same editors can be quick to ridicule other editors that don't have as many accomplishments as they do, as if that makes those other editors inferior and less intelligent. Having a nice resume of content work is not a pass that allows one to be condescending to seemingly inferior editors and immune to sanctions for boorish behavior. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 22:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

This just proves my point: good people with the best intentions and the same goals have different ideas. In the end, it will likely take some kind of compromise that is understandable, and like most compromises, guarantees no one will like it completely. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:51, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Civility is the lubricant between editors. When it is missing there will be friction. I fail to see how grown adults can not recognize aggressive negative behavior when they see it. I can understand not calling someone out about it to avoid retaliation but I think we all know it when we see it. The "civility police" didn't (and don't) ruin anybody or anything. Maybe we need a Civility Czar. Dennis, are you busy? ```Buster Seven Talk 23:04, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Um, NO. The community would not be willing to have me as the civility czar, I'm pretty sure of that and understand why. I'm more tolerant of strong language and bumping heads than most admin. I also loathe civility blocks because I think they often make the civility issue worse. This is due in part due to muddiness of policy. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, I just have a different view than many and think that one on one interaction is better for many cases, although that is expensive, manpower wise. Unquestionably, I want Misplaced Pages to be more civil, I just don't think you can achieve that by mainly using the block button. I know incivility when I see it too, but sometimes, we DO disagree on what is incivil and what isn't. I see people call comments "uncivil" daily that I don't consider uncivil. "That is the worse idea I've ever heard", "You have got to fucking kidding me" or "why the hell would you do that?". The context matters, not just the words, those could go either way depending on who you ask, and where it is said. It might just be sarcasm, it might not. Some confuse swearing with incivility, and it isn't the same. Some things, like telling someone to "fuck off" are obvious, but the passive aggressive incivility is just as bad, even if it is dressed up with sweet words ("I hope you receive from life what you so richly deserve" kindness or snark?). That is the problem: you block only the blunt people, you are left with a bunch of passive aggressive rude people. I think I have a fair bead on the problem, but I am clueless as to how to form a compromise at this time. Besides, we don't or want ONE czar, we need consensus. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:37, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Civility police are a very real phenomenon on Misplaced Pages. They are certainly not "lubricants". Perhaps, Buster, you are confusing civility with basic courtesy. Basic courtesy is an authentic value, civility is a manipulative construct, often just a control mechanism used by religious fundamentalists. The civility police on Misplaced Pages emphatically do wreck able editors and do far more long term damage than legions of vandals will ever achieve. Generally they contribute next to nothing of real value themselves in building the encyclopaedia, but are are principally here to pull down the actual builders. They are often found on the drama boards trying to get some able editor sanctioned. They will use any weapons, but what work best is attacking editors on the grounds of "civility", often just primitive and puritan notions which they pretend are universal values. Generally they don't acknowledge that that is what they do, and pretend it's not happening. How can "consensus" be possible given such conflicted goals? --Epipelagic (talk) 23:47, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

If I was to call you a gullible fool for saying that or to say you were dishonest, you probably wouldn't like it (and I'm not simply fabricating those examples). Guess what, I don't like being spoken to like that either and promoting an environment in which anything goes is not in our best interests. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 23:53, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Well now, there you are... --Epipelagic (talk) 23:59, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Civility is derived from the latin 'civus' or citizen. But, for me, its never about the naughty words. Its about the anger and mean intent behind them. What is more workable is peer pressure. But...I must say that I tried it with Malleus...once. It didn't work. ```Buster Seven Talk 23:58, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

"Civility" fits nicely if you you look at the RfA that made PumpkinSky leave, termed a attack page while it was running. - Rlevse would have said Peace ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Well yes, I completely agree with that Buster, particularly with the peer pressure bit. And Malleus could be difficult. An example of a true lack of basic courtesy is AutomaticStrike's suggestion above that I am a dishonest and gullible fool. If he is "not fabricating" then he should say what he means. --Epipelagic (talk) 00:41, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)You completely missed the point. I was not suggesting that those things are true about you. I was asking you how you would feel if those things were said about you. See, those things were said about me, by Malleus. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 00:46, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh... yes, Malleus needed a good rap on the knuckles from time to time. But it was crazy he was driven off Misplaced Pages. The people responsible for that are now a net loss to the project. Incidentally, I am not "promoting an environment in which anything goes". Quite the contrary. I am all for courtesy, and that includes the courtesy of not seeking to block a user just because he said something hurtful. Buster's peer pressure approach would be much better, except for really hard core cases. --Epipelagic (talk) 00:58, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't agree that Malleus was driven off the project. He chose to leave and to cast the blame on other editors, allowing himself to be painted as a victim. In reality, all he had to do was treat other users with respect and that was apparently too much to ask. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 01:03, 22 December 2012 (UTC) My apologies for the misunderstanding above. I should have been more clear.

Hey Automatic! I am pretty much sick of your arguments, because they are twisted and false. You have tried here to paint a picture of Malleus: that because he is (while active) a valued editor-contributor, he got away with "not treating others with respect". As though Malleus, for no other reason than because he wanted to or could, went around insulting others and being offensive. That is simply hogwash. The picture you paint is a false one. (A sort of personal attack initiated by you, in fact.)

Let's take an objective look. Let's start with your most complained-about protest of Malleus's behavior that you seemingly most resent and is the basis for your accusations against Malleus: that he called you a "gullible fool". Simply put, Automatic, that is not really precise. In fact, what you say, didn't happen. Here is the exchange between you and he ... You:

Well, what about blocking Malleus for the personal attack he just made? I believe that is number 4,801 for him this year. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 20:13, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

He:

If that's what you believe then you're a gullible fool. Malleus Fatuorum 20:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

First, Automatic, take notice that you have in the above, accused Malleus of being guilty of making personal attacks. ("4,801" of them.) That's a serious charge against someone. Especially someone like Malleus, who has reason to take pride in his integrity (as editor, and as person). You don't prove. You don't show how Administrators have done any sanctioning for these numerous "personal attacks". You simply, flippantly, make up your accusation, with free-wheeling exaggeration to boot. (That shows civility from you?? To accuse someone of serious breaches of policy, of integrity, without any backing up this assertion at all?? Just a smear from you?? And you don't call that a breach of civility?? I think policy would be against you on that one, even. You don't go around claiming others are guilty of making personal attacks, that is both serious thing to do, and can be extremely offensive. Basically it is an unsupported smear, and I doubt you could muster the facts to support such a claim. If you rely on prejudice, and saying "whatever you want" because you can, then well, aren't you behaving in the same manner you are falsely attacking Malleus for behaving? That is called hypocrisy, hello.)

Now, let's take a look at Malleus's response to you. He told you that "if you believe" that he has committed the personal attacks you've accused, that you would be a "gullible fool". (Did he call you a gullible fool? No. Only conditionally. Only if you believe he is guilty of committing the personal attacks you asserted he has: "4,801 ".)

The fact is, you insulted Malleus, with a personal attack, in claiming he was guilty of an uncountable number (even if you had claimed he'd made only a few, or even one, your accusation still remains unsupported, I doubt you have the backing to make even a lesser claim, only your opinion, only your desire to insult) of personal attacks made against others on the English Misplaced Pages, in 2012. Completely untrue. And an irresponsible, false, offensive accusation to make. (Who made it? You did!)

How do you fucking possibly then draw the conclusion, that somehow Malleus just "doesn't treat people with respect", and that *you do*?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I'm ready to deal with your other false accusations and personal attacks as well, not just the above one. And I'm ready to reply to any of your followups. (You started this!) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:18, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Please refer to Dennis' advice above @ Help Desk Controversy. Can I get you two to agree to take this 'barn fight' somewhere else....one of your talk pages for instance. This adversarial challenging is better suited for private conversation. ```Buster Seven Talk 13:22, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Wiki-qualification (pulled out of previous discussion)

One idea that I have been mulling over for other reasons is a system of wiki-qualification, i.e. wiki-Undergrad, wiki-Batchelor, wiki-Doctorate, wiki-Professor etc. It could be task specific as well, eg PhD in Misplaced Pages administration, Professorship in history articles. It would be performance based of course and awarded by an impartial committee. Some editors like to work to some sort of goal (edit count, FAC count, ITN count etc) and aspiring to a wiki-qualification may be a goal that will keep editors here. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 00:49, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I have a feeling that such a system would lead to a sort of hierarchy in which some editors would wind up being viewed as more valuable than others. Also, rewarding editors for the quantity of their work could lead to an emphasis of quantity over quality. Just my two cents. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 00:54, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I imagine this would basically be barnstars awarded by a committee; if the categories were kept light-hearted, in the spirit of barnstars, I think issues of hierarchy could be avoided. isaacl (talk) 00:58, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I had suggested something like this on the the village pump recently in an RFC that was opened about another subject. I like the idea. Is this something that we want to be a part of WER or as a new sister project "stand alone"?--Amadscientist (talk) 01:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea of it being a part of WER, but not under "the authority of". An official but independent project of WER. I think it will be easier to get human resources that way as well, since WER has significant momentum, where this is a new idea. Well, a new spin on an old idea. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:29, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) A standalone project is an idea. We could trial it here on enWP before taking that step.-- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 01:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I thought the issue of hierarchy might come up!! Anyway, there is already is a grading an informal way of valuing editors: the vandals at one end and the content creators, wiki-gnomes etc at the other end. I would want to have the wiki-qualification based on quality and quantity. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 01:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

If that is possible, I'm all for it. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 01:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It is possible. It would be like a WP:RfA. That seems to work and gets plenty of commentary. Misplaced Pages:Editor review also gets comments. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 01:48, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Alan, to make it easier to follow your proposal for a set of, let's call them merit barnstars, can you move it and the associated followup comments into a separate section from the "Editor of the Week" discussion? isaacl (talk) 01:58, 22 December 2012 (UTC) Thanks for creating the separate discussion thread! isaacl (talk) 03:46, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

New day, new thought: how about finding the "unknown Wikipedian of the week", someone who was NOT awarded awesome Wikipedian before? - I escape the problem of grading by taking the first name coming to my attention any day, and I was advised to encourage new talent by giving it to someone on their first DYK - which I had done without being asked ;) - I will go now and look for today's, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:15, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Gamification already exists to some extent with the "experienced editor" awards, barnstars, DYK/FA and so forth. The nice thing about barnstars is that they are sort of random, people don't feel miffed if they don't get one, but getting one is a nice surprise. I would be very careful with other "rewards" because sometimes, for psychological reasons, they can have the opposite effect to that intended. Rich Farmbrough, 10:23, 22 December 2012 (UTC).

Not a huge fan of either proposal in this section...the EOTW is designed to be someone who's not necessarily known, so I think they'd overlap. This Wiki-qualification, while interesting, I feel might become to bureaucratic, so that would have to be closely monitored if it were to begin. Interesting concept, just not entirely sure it's feasible. Go Phightins! 15:11, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I have a lot of reservation about this "certification". First, it would put us in the position of "Judge", which I don't like. Second, it does create a tier system, which has pros and cons (it encourages moving up, and discriminating). This would outside my original intent, which is to focus on people who put words into articles and improve the readability and usefulness of the encyclopedia, through the eyes of the reader. Really, that is what we are doing: Saying "thanks" to the editors on behalf the readers, who aren't involved enough to know who to thank. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:25, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I think a lot of hard core editors won't be too impressed with a set of merit barnstars, but the honest truth is that achievement badges, whether obtained from the Scouts, Stack Overflow, or Xbox Live, are sought after by some, and can contribute to a more congenial environment. Though I'm not sure yet where I stand on this proposal, I do think if the categories can kept sufficiently whimsical, it may be a harmless version of Misplaced Pages:Hat collecting, since no actual additional powers would be given. I agree this idea has a different motivation than the "Editor of the week" proposal as described above (and this is partly why I suggested that it be discussed separately). isaacl (talk) 15:50, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

They could be handled together, and if they were truly whimsical, not "ranks" that you worked your way up, then I would be more open. Like buttons or pips on the collar for 100th article started, 200th article started, 10 DYKs, etc. "Flair" to display on their userpage. That would make it fun, without establishing a hierarchy of ranks to achieve. We already have "ranks" so to speak, via Misplaced Pages:Service awards. But pips for reaching milestones is an interesting idea to add. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:35, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I strongly oppose any system set up, ever, which applies labels to editors which suggest anything but "We're all Wikipedians here". To do otherwise simply sets up drama and contention for no good reason. And goes against the spirit of one of the project's fundamental principles: anyone can edit. - jc37 00:15, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

There has no suggestion that such a scheme will be used to prevent editing. Anyway, given that the community is on the whole egalitarian to the point of not recognising editor experience and editing quality it is not likely that the suggestion will go anywhere. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:45, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Simple appeal process

We have a system where if someone is blocked they can effectively only get unblocked by admitting wrongdoing and promising not to do it again (unless they are editors with standing) this is not how most editors word their first, or sometimes second unblock request - those that do are often gameplayers who are destined to cause trouble, funnily enough.

I think we should give an option to have the block reviewed by another admin. If it is supported, the blocked editor will probably take advice more easily from the second admin than from the person who instituted the block. Rich Farmbrough, 10:23, 22 December 2012 (UTC).

• You are talking about the Innocent prisoner's dilemma, we had a dedicated page for discussion at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Editor Retention/current discussions/innocent prisoner's dilemma discussion but it died down. You might check there for ideas. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
  • I read it at the time and again since. Not sure what the action points are though. Maybe something to mull over. Rich Farmbrough, 19:51, 27 December 2012 (UTC).
    

Editors on the Fence

I'm sure as we all wander around WikiWorld we come across an editor whose decision to stay or go is hanging in the balance. The one I have in mind is User:My76Strat. If you know him or have concern for him, stop by and give him a peptalk. I hope you ALL don't run over with milk and cookies, but a friendly hello goes a long way to remind a fellow editor that it should be fun to edit. Also, this brings to mind the need for a subpage that WE can refer to for editors that are on "The Fence". In fact, if I can be so bold, I'd like to suggest that WE call it WER/The Fence. WE can each check periodically for editors we might know or have worked with or whatever. Retaining editors is our challenge. Eventually we will have dozens of ways we are accomplishing our goal. ```Buster Seven Talk 21:46, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

• I don't have a problem with dropping the concern on this page, but long threaded discussions should probably be avoided. Not sure we need a sub page, it just gets confusing, one more page to watch. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:27, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

We could add here, and archive to a sub page that doesn't need much watching. "It should be fun to edit", right. Should be. I was shown the "civil"-card on two pages ;) I find it hard to retain myself, so will give myself a peptalk ;) - The project is on Jimbo's page, in case someone wants to add. Last entry was an invitation to look at BarkingMoon - my classical example for a user the project should have tried to keep, factual, polite, enthusiastic, well organised - lost, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:29, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

ps: I am impressed by the depth and courage of My76Strat, a peptalk won't be enough for a member of "a stringent minority of thoughtful editors" --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:06, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Gerda, I agree, at least when it comes to the "minority of thoughtful editors." Most of them won't publicly ponder retirement. They'll just leave. Pep talks will really have a minimal impact on those who are burned out or disgusted by the culture here. It's just another band-aid on a hemorrhaging wound, and some might actually find it insulting. It doesn't really do anything to correct the underlying cultural flaws, and instead may lead to them becoming more disillusioned. It could also lead to some unintended consequences. Intothatdarkness 14:49, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Dennis. My idea is just a list of names. One of us sees an editor mulling retirement? He gets added to a running list. I/You/WE check the list every now and then and say..."O yea! I remember him. He was one of the good guys. I think I'll go say Hi." No discussion here at all. Just a list. ```Buster Seven Talk 06:36, 23 December 2012 (UTC) Or maybe one of the members that is interested in the WHY of Editor leavings can go and interview him. This project is a receptacle for information about Editor Retention. Editors threatening to abandon ship is information. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

List

• My76Strat
• SpacemanSpiff
• Greatuser
• User:ThatPeskyCommoner

can we unblock a million or so IP addresses?

I've been having a few thoughts about the millions of IP addresses we've blocked and the unknown number of editors caught up in blocks intended for other people. I'm sure being blocked as collateral damage for someone else's block must be negative for editor retention. I'm starting to draft a proposal at User:WereSpielChequers/IP and OS blocks - collaboration welcome, don't worry about it being in my userspace. If we can turn it into something that could work and the community might accept then I'll move it to WP space and file an RFC. ϢereSpielChequers 01:41, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

• I would suggest ping some or all the CUs and maybe some of the folks at WP:OPP like User:Materialscientist, as they have the greatest experience with these issues. The CUs would have to be in the loop anyway, best to do it early. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
• We could perhaps start with 212.92.0.135, blocked indef about 6 years ago by Curps. Rich Farmbrough, 00:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC).
  

Request for assistance

Hi, I'm here about User:Allisgod, who I think has excellent potential but unfortunately almost immediately showed a bad case of ABF and hostility, and when I tried to explain to them how their edits appeared to others, the situation quickly unraveled. See User_talk:Allisgod#Reply_to_your_post_on_Talk:God and the subsection for current situation. I cannot manage to get across to this editor that I'm trying to be of help, and that personal attacks are not helpful for their continued good standing here, but they're taking any guidance, advice, or explanations of policy as an attack from me. I'm dropping discussion with Allisgod for now (unless there are specific questions asked of me, or the situation changes in some other way), as they seem immune to the concept that I'm not out to get them when I try to explain policy or behavioral guidelines. Mind you, this is a fairly new editor, and not one who has made lots of contribs, so I'm not sure if y'all will be terribly motivated, as this project seems geared more towards ending burnout, but I have hope. Thanks in advance. KillerChihuahua 02:08, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

You are being incredibly patient. I don't know if I would have lasted as long as you are.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:15, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

• This is kind of pushing the boundaries of what we normally try to do here, more of a WP:WQA issue, if that hadn't been shut down, and we aren't an official board and all. I will still take a look and see if I can help them. We have to be very careful about what we bring here, ie: nothing that could possibly require sanctions, for example, as we are NOT an admin board and don't want to upset the community by trying to be one, as we do not have any community permission to act as one. It is better to drop behavioral issues on the talk page of an uninvolved admin or non-admin that is known for mediating problems. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:27, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

• I've left them a message, I think they are all wound up and just not receptive. Sometimes it helps to have someone to talk to that isn't interested in that event or those articles, someone that will just let you vent a little, so you can calm down. All I can do is offer, and we will see. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:54, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
• (ec) Dennis, you are an angel, thank you. This page is watched by more than one uninvolved editor who is interested in mediating problems or helping editors, and so I tried here rather than spin-the-userpage wheel. And you know as well as I do that WQA sucked almost out of the gate, because it was used 99% of the time as a tool to attack editors, and not to try to help them learn behavioral guidelines on WP. (OMG was rude block him! kindof thing.) Thanks again, and good luck. KillerChihuahua 02:55, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

• We just have to be very careful as some admin will complain if this starts to look like an unofficial admin board, and I understand their concerns. Not everyone has the same opinion of this project. If you ever have someone that just needs a "Dear Friend" letter, feel free to ping me on my talk page, I do that a lot. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:01, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

You are probably right, there is always one. But admins can and should respond to any post made anywhere, we are not supposed to be that hide-bound (yet). Rich Farmbrough, 17:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC).

• We should, I did, they replied in a positive way, so a dialog has started. Don't worry, I wouldn't ignore an out of venue request. Just saying it is best for this project if it is instead done on a talk page if there is even a small chance of sanctions/admin action. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:05, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Userbox

This user is a member of WikiProject Editor Retention.

I finally got around to creating a userbox in main template space {{Userbox wer}}, which will automatically put you into Category:WikiProject Editor Retention members. I think, as I'm new to templates and cats. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:10, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

• Snazzy! I'll take a quick look at the template, but I'm sure you got it right. KillerChihuahua 13:22, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Happy dance. I couldn't have figured that out if I tried. Well maybe, but it seemed like a duanting task...so I never tried! Good for you Dennis.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:57, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
    • Yep. And there ya go! Thanks Dennis! Mines up!--Amadscientist (talk) 05:01, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I still like the old one. I'm gonna keep that one on my front lawn. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:47, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Old one? We only have three I think....and they were made at about the same time. Which one do you mean. The one with the two figures reaching out? I liked that one as well....you could just copy the coding from this one and replace the image so you can keep the one you have. If you want drop off the box here and I can do it for you.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:58, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Old one

This user is a member of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Editor Retention

The above is a manually coded userbox using: {{userbox | border-c = black | id = ] | id-c = #00ff00 | id-fc = #ff0000 | id-s = 9 | info = This user is a member of ] | info-c = #fff }}

New-old one with category

This user is a member of WikiProject Editor Retention.

{{Userbox retention}}, which will automatically put you into Category:WikiProject Editor Retention members, and is an additional option for member editors.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:47, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

• Someone should probably normalize the names 1,2. I don't care which standard we use and will leave that to others (although both should add to the category), but rotating from one to the other should be easier and have similar names. I had forgotten about the first userbox I had created, so that was my mistake to not look back. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:33, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
  • OK. Good idea. probably the WER name is best.--Amadscientist (talk) 20:44, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

A wee snippet of info to tuck away

that I chanced across here. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Guys won't be seeing much of me around, either...

Following my concerns about what's happening here. And the lack of genuine interest in fixing anything which really needs to be fixed. And I'm not talking about the thin veneer of pseudo-civility ... I'm talking about the kind of "quasi-government" which thinks that silencing the dissenting voices is OK; which thinks that closing access to people's talk pages is OK, in order to "disperse the crowds"; that thinks that a few grouchy snarls and a few "naughty words" equates to incivility; that thinks that a request for clarification or amendment can be skewed round to result in a motion for a site-ban which a lot of people who should know better signed despite the fact that nobody other than themselves asked for it; that thinks that our best editors and potential editors are driven off by what they perceive as "incivility"; that doesn't understand that drivers who do tens of thousands of miles in a year in areas frequented by trap-setters, boy-racers, drunk drivers, lousy roads and poor lighting are that many times more likely to have an accident than the one who does 1,000 miles a year on quiet country lanes ... . There's a stunning lack of genuine insight around here, and I, for one, am sick of it. I posted on Jimbo's talk that I was seriously concerned; and the response was ... well ... underwhelming. Nobody wants to address the real issues - it's easier to pick on someone whose accent doesn't quite fit. So I'm not doing much. Pesky (talk) 12:51, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I said on the mentioned page that the project is losing the best, and you, Pesky, are one of them. Y'all: speak up there, and enjoy the Christmas music on my user and talk, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

You are speaking 'real', Pesky. (Before you quit adding here on this Project page Talk, I'd like you to tell the "Editor Retention" project how you feel about the effectiveness of how they are organized, and what they talk about here, etc. ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:22, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeh. We, as a community, really need to be looking at what's driving away our good, established editors. The back-stabbing, scapegoat-seeking politics of the place, hiding under that thin, shiny, honey-scented illusion of sweet reasonableness. We're riddles with death-watch beetle, but because of the pretty waxed surface they hide under, most people don't even realise it's there. And woe betide those who point it out. And it would be sooooooo kewl if everyone who thought that Malleus having been blocked for calling a group of people "sycophants" was ok would join together as a team and issue an instant indef block to every admin or arb or ex-arb who has ever called a group of people "enablers", "fans", "supporters", or anything else at all which actually is just another of the many ways of calling people sycophants. Go for it! Be brave ... Pesky (talk) 13:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Wish I knew what to say Pesky. I'm not nearly as optimistic as I was many months ago myself. I still see admin say talk pages of blocked users can ONLY be used to request unblocks (policy does not support this claim), and a number of other happenings that I find frustrating. It sometimes feels like some people are trying to control Misplaced Pages, which is like herding cats: You accomplish nothing and it irritates the cats. On the issue of defining "civility", the community is completely torn in two and I honestly see it getting worse before it gets better. The last couple of months have been a rather depressing for me in many ways as well. I will be sparse for a while due to my occupation, so maybe a little break will do me good. I hope you don't stray too far away, we need sensible folks like you around. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:13, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

There's really nothing to say, Dennis. The "community" is dysfunctional, run quite often by those who can either shout the loudest or wield essays as weapons (which from what I've seen passes as consensus far too often). Reasonable voices are ignored or shouted into silence. And I honestly think that the breaks don't really help anyone (although I would never begrudge anyone time away from here, obviously). All they do is dull the outrage. It's pretty well documented that, given mental distance, people are more likely to forget the things that angered them about something and instead remember the "good times." Which in turn makes the shock of new bad times all that more severe. And as for defining civility...I don't think it will happen because there are too many who either use it as a weapon or hide behind it to launch their attacks. It's far too useful in a twisted sense for those who really don't understand it. Intothatdarkness 14:38, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• IHTS, we are just a project with no authority. The topics discussed are just what people bring up, no one really "decides" what we discuss. If you look at the early archives, my first objective was to get someone to act as a leader here as I don't want the job, but no one was interested, so we have no "leader" here. It is a bit scattered, but that isn't always a bad thing. As an individual, I'm completely clueless on how to deal with the civility misenforcement issue. I can speak out at Arb hearings (and have), vote in polls when they come up, etc. but I don't know of any action we could initiate or discuss that would fix this problem. As I said above, the community is very split on the issue, and it is very hard to find a solution when everyone disagrees on the problem. There are a large number of people who think that any rudeness or bluntness is reason to block. I would not be one of them. I think part of it is an effort to "child-proof" Misplaced Pages, make it all safe and warm and fuzzy. In my mind, that is not only impossible to achieve, but undesirable. It would drive me away, that is certain. I'm not interested in policing "dirty words" on the Wiki. I think it is a short-sighted philosophy and will lead to even more uneven and unfair enforcement. I've said it before: Laws or policies that are generally unenforceable end up being selectively enforced, thus are a form of tyranny. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:29, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I actually like having no "leader" here! I dream of FA without a leader ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:33, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Thx for your candid response, Dennis. If there is any de-facto leader here, it's you (project founder). After your last honest admission of depressed expectations and not knowing what the H can be done, I'd say there's not much purpose to the Project, other than chit-chat. (I.e., no authority, no chance for effectiveness to better any of the major problems, for sure, or even a willingness, IMO, to talk about them with any passion. T-shirts are not the answer, either!) Please read your conundrum soliloquy again (because, I think it's telling). You don't know what can be done. You are confused as to how problems could effectively be solved. You've thought and you've thought, and you've reached exhausted failure. Dennis, this is so obvious to me, your predicament: You have assumed that solutions can be found and achieved, *within* the current WP structure. That is wrong. That is impossible. Your frustration is a function of that false assumption. The only solution, is one of *structural change*. (And that isn't even close to the scope or objectives of the project here, to recommend structural changes, is it?) Plus, here is a second false assumption you are undertaking, that leads to more of your frustrations: You are assuming you are smart enough, to maybe, figure out what the solutions can be, to the problems. (You can't. You aren't smart enough. Neither am I. And neither is Malleus, *alone*.) I've just given the clue where that smartness can be found: in a collaboration of the top content contributors of Misplaced Pages. (That group would be a collective beehive of intellgence, that would have the capacity to produce solutions. And I think *only* that combined intelligence, can possibly do it. I don't know what they would come up with, but I can tell you this: it would involve structural change.) I can already hear detractors to the idea saying that such a group (the 10-15 top contributors according to the community) could never reach consensus what to do, what structural change to implement. Bull. (You see, they all love the Pedia so much, have given serious parts of their lives to it. They have a common interest to preserve their investment. And a committment to being smart, always. They would work it out, a consensus, if given the chance, and given some time.) That is where the answer is. And it is a resource untapped. It needs to be more than tapped (it needs to be organized, and given some authority). Anything else will be as ineffective as a Star Trek Tribble (which has no teeth). Ihardlythinkso (talk) 15:06, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

You have to remember that the sole purpose of WER isn't to deal with "civility", although that is one issue that fits the goals. We still do many different things via WER, typically not on this page. Often people drop off problems and a member will go and try to help, often with success. The Project is more a place to discuss problems, create awareness, and provide a venue for both sides of debates. If WER has done anything, it has allowed the discussion to take place in a public area, owned by no one. The real work that gets done never happens on this page. But you are right that I am not smart enough to figure out the solution on my own, and you may be right that it is structural and will require core changes, I honestly don't know. I do know that opinions are very split, and getting consensus seems hopeless at this time. And yes, usually I come across more hopeful, perhaps more so than I really feel, but it is just my way to try to project an optimistic view. For now, myself and others try ad hoc solutions in individual situations where we can, but that is a very hit or miss proposition. It is better than nothing, but still less than optimal. As for being a de facto leader, I understand why others see it that way, which is why I sometimes ride the fence, as to encourage discussion and not force the Project into my particular point of view. It is still not the role I wanted, and it is a bit uncomfortable at times, to be honest. There are a great many issues that affect editor retention, and if I had the answers, I would have no need for the project. The purpose is to get people to talk so we can learn and develop ideas. Some solutions are obvious and everyone agrees, but many (like civility) are not. The whole reason to start the project was that I knew the best ideas wouldn't come from me, but from others, and this would provide a forum for them. A look at the original edit I made to start the project gives an idea of my original intent. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I {{like]] what DB has to say. Having read pesky and ihts's comments hours ago, I was concerned and wanted to reply but wasn't quite sure how. Ive tried to formulate a response but was not able to. I think Dennis said it best about WER being a sounding board, a place for open discussions without a moderator, a place to brainstorm and search for solutions. Civility is a big mountain to climb and I can understand editors wanting to take a break during the climb. But, as with most mountains, there are hundreds of ways to the top. Let's keep looking upward and search for one that works. Abandoning the journey won't get us there. ```Buster Seven Talk 18:48, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Perhaps we didn't all embark on the same journey, so our intended destinations may be different. For instance, I rather naively assumed that we were here to write a 💕, not to make the Internet a more civil place, whatever "more civil" might mean in backwoods America. And sometimes to do that in any kind of reasonable timeframe you have to break a few eggs, not stroke innumerable power-crazy and inadequate egos beyond the point of common sense. That, in my mind, is the fundamental schism that's tearing Misplaced Pages apart. Misplaced Pages in its current form is past its best-by date, and unless some serious changes are made it won't be around in even a couple of years I don't think, other than as some archive jealously guarded by the surving administrators. Malleus Fatuorum 19:21, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

What kinds of changes do you feel are necessary? Go Phightins! 19:24, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I will be quite happy to accept a well-paid consultancy contract with the WMF to point them in the right direction. Perhaps that may give you a clue, perhaps not. Malleus Fatuorum 19:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC).

This kind of thing is why I'm working on User:Biosthmors/WMF Noticeboard, FYI. Biosthmors (talk) 19:53, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

In support of Pesky and her brave move, sometimes "abandoning the journey" is the only sensible and heartfelt way to move forward. I've been reading Pesky long enough to trust that for her (and all of us) her decision was the right one. Gandydancer (talk) 19:14, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

As I suggested above, there are two fundamentally distinct issues here: what are we producing and how are we producing it. Is there any evidence at all that this emphasis on civility has led to a better product? Isn't that, at the end of the day, all that matters? Malleus Fatuorum 19:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I would say the emphasis is on incivility and that negativity has probably not helped. I have never seen you be uncivil (though I would grant annoying) and I would be reluctant to take anyone's word for it. But certainly with less than 20% of our pages being articles, there sees to be a chronic obsession with process rather than product. Rich Farmbrough, 20:10, 27 December 2012 (UTC).

Malleus is right, we must put building the encyclopedia first, and everything else second. Otherwise, we end up with a bunch of sweet talking passive-aggressives and a very poorly designed social networking site. You DO have to crack a few eggs, you must allow a good portion of bluntness and the occasional beer bottle thrown across the room. Only when it spills into the isles should we get involved in an administrative capacity. At least that is my opinion, but I appear to be in the minority. You don't have to like it, only tolerate it as long as the focus is still about the articles, using words instead of blocks to settle down the heat when you can. And of course, the flip side is where WER comes in, trying to make the place more fun to be at, cut some of the red tape in the policies, simplify guidelines, jump in and mediate disagreements, patch a wound every now and again, without creating a false sense of civility that is really just incivility glazed in polite words. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:12, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I think it's important to figure out a way to corral the bullies and trolls while not ourselves getting splattered with the same brush; seems like whenever you go after these people, they scream that they are the wronged ones and get everyone on their side. I couldn't figure it out in 5th grade and I still can't figure it out, but that's the dynamic. Malleus is the classic case, he calls the trolls on their crap, occasionally catching a few of the rest of us (that's the "annoying" part) in the process, but you can always spot the trolls by the haste with which they beat a path to ANI... sigh. Montanabw 22:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

You'd need to correct two (at least) basic flaws here first, IMO: the focus on the "last event" when it comes to just about any ANI action AND a startling inability to distinguish between assuming good faith (which appears to be a very selective thing in many cases) and being gamed by a superficially polite passive/aggressive bully. The "just grin and take it" mantra I see trotted out in far too many cases simply encourages the passive/aggressive bullies and (I suspect) makes their more obvious cousins more aggressive. Add to that a possibly unhealthy obsession with metrics and numbers and you're left with a real mess. Intothatdarkness 22:24, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't claim to have any definitive answers here, but I don't think "corraling" anyone is the answer. Throwing labels on people, regardless of the direction of the throwing, will likely make the situation worse. Some people are disruptive and need to be blocked, but the overwhelming majority of people who think that "civility must be strictly enforced" are not bullies. Most are good editors, but they just have a narrow view of the situation and think you can "corral" the people that say dirty words or get blunt. There are some issues, but lets not paint everyone who disagrees as being he same. There is a lot of variety in those that want overly strict enforcement, which is why we try to engage them and change their minds, not label them. The real "bully" types typically don't have a philosophy about civility per se, it is just a means to an end. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, it's a nice idea, but can you point even one example where you have succeeded in changing the mindset of one of these self righteous civility obsessives? This stuff seems too deep rooted in ideological background and genetics for polite conversation and rational discussion to have any effect. And how many of these people really contribute anything of value to Misplaced Pages? --Epipelagic (talk) 00:45, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that question must be asked. Misplaced Pages's quality should be foremost, not more than the editing environment. Binksternet (talk) 05:20, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Content is king. There are some brilliant editors here (Malleus, Intothatdarkness, Epipelagic, etc.) and I think the brief discussion shows a consensus that quality is first. It would be nice if everyone were on board (so all horses could pull in one direction). This is example what I mean (copied from here):

Something has got to give. I really do hope that we can create a decent civility "policy" - I'd rather have a happy healthy environment and miss a few articles then have good articles and an unhealthy community. We can't meet our mission if we don't have a healthy collaborative environment. SarahStierch (talk) 21:10, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure Sarah is a nice and professional person, and everyone seems to like her, and no doubt I would like her too when meeting her in person. But her sentiment seems to conceptually be counter the idea that article quality must come first. So in that respect, there's a divergence in thinking. (She is very pleasant and a good ambassador for WP, Teahouse and all, so, nothing personal, but I think it would be advantageous to bring her in the fold and convince her of the consensus which seems to exist here, to achieve an intellectual harmony regarding the objective and mission of WP. Again nothing personal, I just see a divergence of idea, and want the right one to win, and influential editors to get behind the same value, or be honestly convinced to. That is real teamwork.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I frankly don't understand why so many wanted to chase me away for so long, but I don't think that was healthy. It's true that I'm not an especially patient person, and I'm only prepared to put up with bollocks for so long before I tell you that you're talking bollocks, if I think you are. Am I always right? Probably not, but way more often than not I'd suggest. These interminable stupid arguments over trivia have to be chopped off at the neck, and that's not by blocking those who point out that they have to be chopped off at the neck, however "uncivily". Unless Misplaced Pages's ultimate aim is to become the nicest social networking site and the worst encyclopedia in the history of the world of course. So far it's failing badly on the first but doing a pretty good job on the second. Malleus Fatuorum 00:33, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

The point is really this: professionalism. If editors feel that being professional in their comments and replies is not easy, then....don't comment. Civility is truly a two way street. Meet incivility with sarcasm at most.....and kindness at best. If this seems to elude some editors then.....perhaps it is best to just wave goodbye from a distance. This may seem counter to our mission here at editor retention, but some editors do not wish to be professional. The question is not about being civil as much as it is to not be so far to the extreme that you are, not just pushing others away, but actually discouraging their input and contributions. This isn't a very difficult issue to understand. We are not sharks smelling blood in the water and deciding to attack the weakest among us. We are trying to build an encyclopedia in a way that allows anyone to add input. If it isn't clear vandalsim....then...at least attempt to be professional and not prove yourself to be unworthy of the respect of the community. We can't save everyone...although clearly there are those that say they are going...yet can't quite seem to find the door. Good. Don't leave. Stay and collaborate. But don't pretend you are out and then keep coming back in. It makes those that are attempting to seek some resolution to stop and think that perhaps some game is being played upon them and they simply won't care anymore. There is a social aspect to Misplaced Pages. Don't like that....? Then you may have a problem with collaboration with others. If that is true....no amount of civility will resolve that issue. It may just be best to know you tried....and let go. What's the old adage...."If you love something... let it go, if it comes back to you it was truly meant to be".--Amadscientist (talk) 09:26, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Amadscientist, your statement "We are trying to build an encyclopedia in a way that ..." shows, by the placing the *how* condition, that you value civility over content. It's back to the basic disharmony re what should be WP's worthy mission. Your 2012 relative red-bar contributions seem (to me) at least consistent with your expressed value . (I'm on on the other side of the fence than you; I want my time FWIW attributed to a quality encyclopedia, not a socially-purified comic book.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:40, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Your opinion of what I value is innacurate and unimportant. Please review Misplaced Pages:Five pillars. When you have figured it out.......get back to me (Hint: see # 3, the yellow pillar). What I see you saying here is what YOU think "should be WP's worthy mission". I am wholly disinterested in what you feel "should be" our mission and more interested in what we have already established as our goals for this project. I am also really not interested in your opinion of my percentage totals for article contributions. 30.69% compared to your 68.04% may show how prolific you are as a content contributer compared to me, but also could be seen as simply finding contribution to be more important than collaboration. If you want your own wiki...start one. Your statistics of 31 comments to our project here....without actually being a member, shows you to be little more than a critic. I also note the number of comments to usertalk pages shows you may have some bias on what I stated above. Please...dance some more with me here. It's fun, but....don't try to lead.....your are not good at it.--Amadscientist (talk) 11:23, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Was trying to be objective, fair, and honest, Amadscientist. (And you interpret as personal attack!, apparently feeling the need to "attack back".) If my view was inaccurate, just correct it. (If 'both' are not possible, do you value content or civility?) Shame on me for suggesting a common idea of WP mission is lacking between editors. Shame on me for taking a side. Shame on me for criticizing anything. (BTW, is there a pillar on article quality? Where?) You seem to be ready and willing to demonstrate where the door is, to content contributors. Ironic that you are here in "Editor Retention". Perhaps you should unplug your emotional cord a bit. Perhaps I didn't "join" here out of name-sake-value-only, because I don't like being a member of preemptively ineffective groups. (Just because it "feels good" is not enough for me. I'm results oriented. Oh so sorry for that!) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC) p.s. Amadscientist, in the above I referred to your 2012 edits, which show your red-bar edits at only 12.40% for the year, not 30.69% that you stated.

You guys are proving why civility can't be "enforced", it is relative, cultural and no one agrees on the nuances. You are both talking over each other a bit, both worthwhile contributors, but put you in a box, whisper "civility", and it turns into a dog fight. This is what is happening Wikiwide. People that are good contributors getting sidetracked and wasting time discussing something they aren't going to agree on, instead of working on articles. The whole debate on "Civility" has been become disruptive. Too bad I can't indef block debates, because the divisions, the rift, the larger debate in the whole community has been more time sucking and detrimental to article creation than all the sockpuppets put together. I haven't worked on articles in two weeks. :/ And of course, and now we lose Pesky, Malleus is poking in a bit but has made it clear he is on his way out, and we also lose editors on the other side of the debate. That I disagree with them on how civility doesn't change the fact that I don't want to lose them as fellow editors. I don't like to see us bleeding out editors, regardless of their opinion of that one pillar. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:26, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Dennis, I don't accept your false blame for dog-fighting. (Was trying to express ideas here, objective, fair as I could. Amadscientist decided to pick up the hatchet. I only responded to his throwing it at me.) It is important to see who initiates incivilities, that is the same problem Malleus has suffered for years, when he has responded to incivilities initated by others, then he picks up the blame. Have a talk with Amadscientist, tell him to cool down, there was no offense intended. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:46, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Dennis, I think others have made clear where they stand, if a choice between content and civility. Where do you stand, because, it isn't clear. ("Malleus is right, we must put building the encyclopedia first, and everything else second. Otherwise, we end up with a bunch of sweet talking passive-aggressives and a very poorly designed social networking site." versus "That I disagree with them on how civility doesn't change the fact that I don't want to lose them as fellow editors.", seems conflicting to me.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:58, 28 December 2012 (UTC) p.s. This was a good discussion, until Amadscientist decided to try and tear it down over feeling personally offended. The ideas here were larger than that. He says nobody gives a damn what I think; I say nobody gives a damn about his feelings. His feelings were not the topic here.

I didn't mean it as blame. The problem is systemic and compounded by different opinions. You two can at least talk to each other, you misunderstand me or perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm saying the problem is larger than a discussion can fix. Every civility discussion I see, people talk over each other, because they argue about the solution, but each see the problem differently. I'm not sure how to properly articulate it. It is no wonder common ground can't be found. If my answers seem conflicted, it is because I don't think the answer lies at either extreme. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:03, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Can't we just show each other some basic common courtesy in discussions? I'm not saying this needs to turn into the choir boys, but why can't, in the course of discussions, we just treat others with a little respect? I completely dispute the comment that we can't have both civility and quality content...Go Phightins! 14:06, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I have not treated anyone with disrespect, if you are referring to me, who did not attack me first. Saying we can have both civlity and quailty content is really side-stepping the Q. (Because anyone can say that. Who would object to saying that? No one.) But why then has Editor Retention become an issue, and why have we lost quality editors thru disgust of the place? And why are we picking up the comments from Malleus and Pesky and others, that are in evidence plain for anyone to see? No one said discussion to resolve these major problems would be pretty. I see no reason to stick one's head in the sand like an ostrich, and whistle walking thru the petrified forest. Let's get real, otherwise it is pure waste of time. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 14:25, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

It's a simple Q, Dennis: If you can't have both, which do you value more, content or civility? (Others seem to have no problem to take a stand. Me too. It's a theoretic Q for sure, but germane to the divide of concept of mission which clearly seems to exist ). Ihardlythinkso (talk) 14:14, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

My opinion on that has always been clear, that content is most important. The reader of the encyclopedia comes first, and content is what brings them here. They are oblivious to our squabbles for the most part. I've never equivocated on that issue. But it is a Catch 22, since if there isn't a degree of civility, you lose content creators, just as if you overpolice civility, you lose content creators. We are bleeding equally on both sides of the civility issue as we speak, demonstrating how dysfunctional the current system is. Of course I want people to get along better, and get offended by some things here. Everyone does. The difference is that I don't think blocking and banning people is the solution in most cases. I have anecdotal evidence it only makes the problem worse. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:19, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

You answered. That's great. No one presented an extremist case to you (that choosing content means zero civility). It is a value preference, when a choice must be made, is all. Sarah (in my interpretation) seems to be on opposite side of the coin (preferring civil environment, over good articles, if a choice must be made). I don't see how there's any way forward, unless people can agree on mission (and, the values question can't be side-stepped, otherwise we have the status quo of today, which most feel isn't working and will lead to further deprecation). As you know I think there is no way out except thru structural change, and I've identified the body-elect that I think is necessary and capable of coming up with those changes for the maintenance and growth of the Pedia. I really think there is no other way. I have no further need to be here, and the last I want is to see ideas devolve to easy criticism and defensiveness, when that is not the point. There are big problems here, and if it feels good to pick on someone, that just feels good, but is not helpful to any discussion out of this mess. I'm curious to get Sarah on board with the other editors previously named, re the value choice already discussed, but this is nothing personal, it's about divergent concepts of worthy mission, and I think not a little related to quality and stoppage from losing valuable contributors. The current structure has no chance at all of improving its health. Good luck with that. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 15:43, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

And we've come full circle, with me saying I really don't know the solution, and you may be right that radical change is needed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER

I believe content is most important, while building a strong encyclopedia through professionalism. Professionalism is different than civility; it carries a certain amount of civility, yes, but that is not the overriding factor. A definition I found which follows what I am trying to convey is: "Professionalism does not mean wearing a suit or carrying a briefcase; rather, it means conducting oneself with responsibility, integrity, accountability...communicating effectively and appropriately..." (according to the situation). You guys are right, there are problems and some change is needed. Answers start with questions asked. Kierzek (talk) 17:59, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

It may sound vain, but I'm certain I could fix Misplaced Pages overnight by slaying of few of the sacred cows such as AGF, which is only ever invoked by rogues. ArbCom would have to go as well of course, and the infamous five pillars would need to become one. It's all perfectly doable, but I know it won't ever get done, because fundamentally Misplaced Pages has morphed into an Internet civility experiment; it's not been about building an encyclopedia for some time now. Sarah's comment above sums it up perfectly: "I'd rather have a happy healthy environment and miss a few articles then have good articles and an unhealthy community. We can't meet our mission if we don't have a healthy collaborative environment." There is no community, there is no mission, and we're missing more than just a few decent articles. The truth is that 99.99% of Misplaced Pages's content is shite, and being nice and lovey-dovey isn't the way to sort that out. Someone needs to start kicking some ass. Or in my case keep kicking ass. Malleus Fatuorum 20:35, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

The problem with that, Malleus, is that unless you plan on fixing every article yourself, we're going to need new editors and to retain good ones, and many of them won't want to come to an environment where it's assumed that they are acting in bad faith. I agree that we need change in this issue, but we're going to need a happy medium. Go Phightins! 20:42, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that these assumptions of good or bad faith are ruthlessly abused here. That needs to be addressed. Malleus Fatuorum 20:47, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more, but the solution (in my opinion) is not to abandon the principles that we were founded upon. That rarely if ever works. Go Phightins! 20:53, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

That's maybe where we have to part company; what never works is living in the past. Malleus Fatuorum 20:58, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

That's true...I don't know, there's no great answer or easy solution here, in my opinion. Go Phightins! 21:02, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, Suppose we did in fact decide to change the policies. How would you then continue with what we are doing yet- Being a collaborative encyclopedia? If we are not friendly to users, esp new ones, we cannot have their help to keep WP running. Which would lead crashing down. Right? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 21:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a friendly environment, and neither does it need to be. What it needs to be is a respectful environment, which it is not. Malleus Fatuorum 21:17, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

How do you think we should make it more respectful? Go Phightins! 21:23, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Respect is shown only for those whose work deserves it. Most new editors would not fall into that category and would learn as they carry forward. Would a friendly environment not be better for them? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 21:30, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

If you want Misplaced Pages to be a social networking site then of course you'd want it to be more friendly. But I don't, I want it to be more professional. And I really don't think that's achieved by blocking editors for using words such as "sycophantic", unless your idea of a professional environment is a junior school. Malleus Fatuorum 21:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

But Misplaced Pages can't be professional without paid editors. Additionally, calling someone sycophantic (I am not familiar with the context or background, but on the surface) doesn't exactly sound representative of a "respectful environment", though. Go Phightins! 21:41, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages already has many paid editors, but they're not being paid to do the right things. Malleus Fatuorum 21:46, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Yep, that's true. Editors are mostly volunteers and do what they want to do rather than what they have to do. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 22:32, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

So our problem isnt assuming good faith or being friendly, right? Its more about those editors, experienced ones included, who deliberately harm other editors and reduce the quality of the project. Ultimately our goal is to create a better encyclopedia. While you prefer a hostile yet professional professional, even if hostile environment, some other editors like me would like to provide a friendly atmosphere where we can also help potential contributors grow and understand. Only have a respectful environment, and it will turn too hostile to allow newbies. Have just a friendly one, and it will become a social networking site. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 21:43, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

You deliberately misrepresent my position, so I will bid you and this forum farewell. Malleus Fatuorum 21:46, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Um WHAT??? Which part of it was misrepresented? Was it a misunderstanding or what? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 21:51, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I suspect the statement you have since struck was part of what he objected to. Intothatdarkness 22:01, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Me too. I didnt realise if the words could be taken otherwise. On reading again I realised maybe thats what he felt misrepresented about; so I clarified my position. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 22:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

• On the topic of civility, there was recently a questionnaire going around that I found to be quite interesting. If there is to be a solution, I wouldn't be surprised if at least part of it came out of that. I think the survey phase is over, but I think they'd accept latecomers. The questionnaire is at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Civility_enforcement/Questionnaire if anyone is interested. ~Adjwilley (talk) 03:26, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

@ Editor Original Soni. I think you have touched on the basic problem with civility. I didnt realise if the words could be taken otherwise. """Everything we type can be taken otherwise.""" We just had a little Drama Dance above because words were taken otherwise and editors started to talk around each other. Comments were made in general and yet taken in specific. ("Are you talkin about me") They all talk about bullies but they are not talking about the same group. One set of bullies are admins and civility police and the other set are editors that bite and their friends. Two completely seperate groups with unknown agendas. ```Buster Seven Talk 14:06, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. - Napoleon" Perhaps a bit strong of a statement but it was the closest quote I could find. Often times people think that being very, very strict in enforcing civility is the right thing to do and are acting in good faith. They are just mistaken and missing the big picture, in my eyes. But again, don't fall into the trap of throwing labels on everyone who disagrees, there are all kinds of motives to want strict enforcement. Most of the time, the motive isn't the flaw, only their proposed solution is, ie: block at the first sign of incivility. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:25, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I think that what we need most is more basic tolerance of minor little grouches and growls; not making mountains out of molehills is important. And less tolerance of the violation of that part of the civility policy which begins "The civility policy is not intended to be used as a weapon". And far, far more equality of enforcement, with the emphasis not on nuking everyone to the highest standards, but accepting the same lower standards from everyone which seem to be accepted from some. This example knocked my faith in the 'pedia "community" with a heck of a knock (visible from my contribs history; spot the difference in the months before it and those after). You have to be patient (and interested!) enough to look at what everyone did, there, to see where all the ripples went, and who did the unacceptable, whether from bias, apathy, incompetence, shite-stirring desire, or whatever. Blocking is almost never the answer. If there's a strong possibility that someone's drunk, a 6-hour block is enough to stop escalation if nothing else would do. But beating people up (metaphorically speaking) is just vile. And bad blocks should be expunge-able from people's block log - you only have to look at the number of idiots who spout out "But look at his block log, see how many times ..." blah, blah, blah. The kind of idle gets who can;t actually be bothered (or who just aren't competent enough) to do a bit of background research and assess the quality of blocks, rather than the total number. If people aren't competent enough to do the basic research required for that, then what standard of research can we expect them to be capable of for producing articles? Anyway, 'nuff for now. Pesky (talk) 22:37, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

The more I see, the more I agree with you that "Blocking is almost never the answer." (See below.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of blocks

Looks like User:Scottywong and User:Drmies just got blocked for "personal attacks". Oh yeah, and Malleus got blocked again too, just to be fair. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Both Scottywong and Drmies were also unblocked. Gtwfan52 (talk) 02:04, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I posted this here, because we were just talking about the problem of not having a clearly defined policy and how blocks might not be the best solution. Editor retention is an issue, since Scotty has apparently all but retired , taking his many tools with him. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:07, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

This will go down as the Great Admin Civil War of 2012. Odd that I am in the middle of researching the destruction of the Curia Hostilia. It was destroyed when two factions in the Catiline conspiracy faught outside of Rome and caused the death of Publius Clodius Pulcher. They brought his body back to Rome, rioted in the Senate House and used all the senator benches to creat a funeral pyre that ignited the Senate house and burned it to the ground.

I am seeing a lot of parallels here.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:20, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

The parallels between what happens in the pedia community and elsewhere in the world, right throughout history, are amazing. In the Real World, vast number of was have been undertaken in the name of religion or some other quasi-religious or "moral" standpoint (most of the ones not undertaken in the war for oil, really). It's just the same here - the bitterest quarrels are in the name of civility. It appears to be the WikiReligion. The vandal-suppressing and stuff is like day-to-day policing; dealing with petty little crimes. But the Big War, that's just people fighting over civility. Very close parallel. Attack, marginalise, disempower and ostracise all those who don't agree with the "religion" of that thin, polished veneer. Those who find slightly dented oak, complete with cigarette stain and coffee-mug-rings, works OK if nobody gets all up in arms about it. Pesky (talk) 09:09, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

If others do the same shit as what these guys are getting away with....the hammer comes down, hard, fast and quick.....and no one will just unblock them and shut down AN and AN/I discussions about it. There are those that are special..... and everyone else.--Amadscientist (talk) 09:25, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

How about a "Guild of Wikipedians who believe all users are equal"?

Lets just hope nobody creates a "Guild of Wikipedians who are more equal than others" though TheOriginalSoni (talk) 09:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

We can believe it....but then there is reality. Even trying to suggest "professionalism" be used seems to attract personal attacks on the user making the suggestion. The only thing that works are blocks and the standard offer apparently. And even that doesn't stick if one is "special" (and that can be anything from a perception of "Great content contributer" to just a "net asset to the project").--Amadscientist (talk) 10:08, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

IMO Blocking itself should be blocked. Have everyone use it very cautiously, and revoke the status for anyone who shows the slightest sign of abuse . We can deal with slightly longish backlogs of block suggestions, but not abuse of the block itself. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 11:23, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Blocking almost never makes things better, unless it's to deal with something caused by external influences which will have worn off when the block's expired. It should really be kept for the most egregious personal attacks, outing, threats, etc. If someone's feeling bad-tempered with someone else's stupidity (and I'm only talking about really pathetic-deliberate stupidity); or there's a long history of back-stabbing, baiting, prodding, winding-up, etc., and gets blocked for snapping, and the other guy gets off scot-free ... is that really going to improve the blocked guy's temper or frame of mind? And when you look at some of the really atrocious blocks which have been done in the name of civility, by an admin who wouldn't have blinked if their best friend had done exactly the same thing, then that's bad. Blocking someone for telling someone to go troll somewhere else might seem good on the surface ... but what if the other guy ends up with a consensus-based topic ban in that area a few days later? What if he really was trolling, had been for far too long, and people had just got sick and tired of him? Is a civility block well-advised, there? Almost certainly not. On the whole, blocking is a far worse remedy than, for example, an interaction ban. Pesky (talk) 12:35, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

After hundreds of edits over several years of editing I was blocked for 48 hours for "edit warring". Neither the other editor nor I had reported each other--it seems that some admins just like to go looking for trouble. I was certain it was some sort of mistake on his part and of course tried to explain the circumstances. Lucky me, it was reduced to only 24 hours because a second admin decided that the "extra" 24 hours tacked on because I used a "roll back" actually had not abused policy after all. But my roll back was taken away anyway. It was all just total bull shit and left me forever changed in how I felt about this place. I'm a mature woman with a successful career history and it was just outrageous that three Misplaced Pages administrators should decide to block me from editing. When I compare my experience here to my other job experiences throughout my life, this place comes in at the bottom. The admin that blocked me was recently voted into the ArbCom group. Go figure... Gandydancer (talk) 18:17, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Holy crap...that's the thing right there Gandy! Admin use their block rights at the drop of a hat because they make the judgement call themselves and we then have no recourse to remove those blocks from our logs. Remember the night Dreadsatr blocked me for "edit Warring" for a single revert that was legitimate. I was actually working with the editor to see the best way to return the information and *wham*.....blocked. He said that (and this isn't blame or to rehash this) that I clearly have a history of edit warring. That wasn't a quality decision because it had nothing to do with the actual revert. Everyone working on the article at the time agreed there was no edit war happening, even the editor I reverted was confused and the support and messages from everyone got me immediatly unblocked.....but that is still on my block log.--Amadscientist (talk) 23:41, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

No MadSci, I don't remember. That's just it: Other people forget and certainly the admins forget, but the editor that feels they were wronged never forgets. And we don't really like to talk about it because it seems we're making a big deal about some little incident in the past. I'm very thick-skinned and seldom get angry or feel insulted, but my feelings were very hurt and I was very angry over my blocking incident. I still am. Gandydancer (talk) 04:35, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I had to go through my acrchives to find it. I started t drag it out at another discussion but deleted it because it is not worth the bad feelings that would occur if I did. But it's there and I still thank you and the rest of the involved editors for the comments. I understand why you would still be upset.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:14, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes this type of action is all too common. I have just posted on Jimbo's talk page why I think it happens. There is indeed a problem with block logs being a permanent record. I am interested that in my arb case the block logs (of SmackBot) are cited en masse as evidence of bad behaviour, and not challenged by any of the 9 arbs in the case or 6 in the amendment - a request to identify any specfic unblock was an example of the alleged behaviour was ignored. This is exactly analogous to Pesy's case, and indeed to the original AN/Is - accusations are made without real evidence, or discussion, and blindly believed. I think the pile-on mentality has been largely excised form AN/I (up to the last couple of days) but it certainly shows its hand at ArbCom. Well, new year, new committee - sorta. Lets see what happens. Rich Farmbrough, 01:00, 31 December 2012 (UTC).

How many Blocked-wikipedians are there?

Just to add to this PREVIOUS DISCUSSION – it appears that there are almost as many blocked wikipedians as there are active ones:

Category:Blocked Misplaced Pages users

Or am I reading this wrong? Ottawahitech (talk) 16:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

It is very difficult to read at all. Not all puppet-masters or suspected puppet-masters have categories. (I would have fixed this but apparently if I do it, it becomes a BLP violation. ) Many of these people/accounts may never have constructively edited, some may have made many vandalistic edits. Whether they count as "Wikipeidans" is moot. And we can be clear that we only want to unblock people who at least have a semblance of wanting to edit. The promotional user-names, for example, will mostly have abandoned their accounts by now, and either be editing under another name or not at all. So a nuanced approach is required. Rich Farmbrough, 00:29, 31 December 2012 (UTC).

Blocked editors with thousands of contributions

Here is an example I just happened to run into of an editor with 23,646 edits to wikipedia who has been blocked indefinitely since 2008. Unfortunately I can come up with several more examples. Ottawahitech (talk) 17:05, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit count as measure of content contributions?

In the exchange above between user:Amadscientist & user:Ihardlythinkso it was suggested that a higher percentage of article-space contributions indicates that an editor is more involved in content building at wikipedia. However, it is my experience that many editors who contribute little to content building still show a high percentage of article-space contributions. This is because tagging of an article (for deletion and other purposes) is counted as an article-space contribution (and takes only seconds for each "contribution").

I wish there was a way to distinguish true content contributions from tagging. Anyone else? Ottawahitech (talk) 14:11, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Excellent New Editor Barnstar

By request, we have a new barnstar to give out to new editors that you feel deserve recognition for being new...but on the right path!

		The Excellent New Editor's Barnstar
		Put your message here. Amadscientist (talk) 10:18, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Use: {{subst:The Excellent New Editor's Barnstar|1=Put your message here. ~~~~}}.

For those not on the right path.......have some patience.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:18, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Brilliant!!! We could very well use this barnstar! I surely will keep this in mind! TheOriginalSoni (talk) 13:42, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Kerching. He's been here a few years, but (like so many editors) only started to edit in bulk from December. Thanks for this, it's one that I think will be very appropriate from some of just the editors we want. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Great...Love the Pelican, Egret, Bird..! ```Buster Seven Talk 17:23, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Like Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:32, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's demise

Much has been said recently, here and elsewhere, about the crumbling Walls of Misplaced Pages. Predictions of collapse because editors are leaving has a Mayan taste. It's difficult to make predictions. Especially about the Future! ```Buster Seven Talk 17:18, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Are "hog wild" administrators chasing away good editors?

That was what was said here with a retirement edit summary. I know this editor had other frustrations on Misplaced Pages, but can we focus on the question of admin conduct? I see Misplaced Pages:Administrators#Review_and_removal_of_adminship says "lesser penalties may also be assessed against problematic administrators, including the restriction of their use of certain functions or placement on administrative probation". How many "problematic" or "hog wild" administrators receive probation or other punishments? If there aren't commonly levied punishments for poor administrator performance, that seems bad for Misplaced Pages. Biosthmors (talk) 21:48, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Generally admins are sanctioned only if they cut across the decisions of other admins, for example wheel warring. It's most unusual for an admin to be sanctioned for upsetting users who don't count, like content developers. --Epipelagic (talk) 23:57, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

We concentrate so much effort on attracting new edits. We really need to spend more attention keeping the great editors we have. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:01, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

It seems that in the enthusiasm for throwing examples around, some details are being carefully omitted here. "Generally admins are sanctioned only if they cut across the decisions of other admins ... users who don't count, like content developers"; in the instance that was the immediate proximate cause of this, actually the person sanctioned was an admin, and the admin who blocked them was (and is) very much a "content developer".

The phrase "hog wild" might be considered discriminatory against those editors who subsist principally on bacon. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 07:43, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

If you pay attention to what I said, Demiurge, you will find that I prefaced the comment with "Generally...". I was making a general comment. --Epipelagic (talk) 08:15, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Strange that there are complaints all year round about admins blocking non-admins but never being held to account themselves, but the loudest and widest protests occur when a few admins get blocked themselves (even though, as far as I can see, none of them were blocked for more than a few hours.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 08:19, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Blocked on the whim of a single admin

Negativity

This is just one man's observation, and it may be related to the not uncommon increase in depression around the holidays, but it sure seems that everyone talking here has been overly focused on the negative lately. Problems exist, but we are probably not going to solve them here. Instead, why don't we try to refocus on the good things that exist and try to promote them? Gtwfan52 (talk) 08:57, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I tried (a while ago), User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 122#Continued: civility and team spirit, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:23, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

It was a good try. While there is no way to stop all the negativity....the one on one interation does help...from both of you, so don't give up! How about joining the Dispute Resolution Noticeborad? There is great need in our little community to extend the work of retaining editors and fostering a more positive collaboration by helping resolve disputes. Think about it.--Amadscientist (talk) 09:30, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I am watching that. - My other approach for positivity is to look for one editor a day whom I want to praise, not ranking, just taking one who comes to may attention. Follow the links in the lists to find a lot of positivity. (If a link doesn't take you to "Precious", please try to find if it was archived, and fix the link. Thank you.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:29, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

• Of course we should focus on the positive, no question. There may be something to the idea that this time of year makes people moody. I've been less chipper than usual, due to external reasons as well as the perception of a lot of events onwiki that upset me but I'm powerless to do much about. I has been a discouraging couple of weeks. It doesn't mean I've lost hope or have changed my perspective on how we should move forward as a community, but I can't deny that I've been discouraged by a number of recent events, including losing several good editors lately, some permanently, some temporarily.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dennis Brown (talk • contribs)

I'm certainly not sure at all that "Of course we should focus on the positive, no question", which translates to "Of course we should always focus on the positive, no question." No we should not. And that is especially true for our editors who are gifted "peace keepers" (such as Dennis). Some peace keepers feel a great deal of stress when things become emotionally stressful. I have worked in group therapy settings and one often sees the peace keepers come to the aid of the person on the "hot seat". In a group setting one just cringes when a peace keeper speaks up to relieve the tension created from a gut-wrenching, heartfelt, event being told by a group member. It can be stressful to remain in an unfinished situation, but it must be done if one expects to ever resolve it. Furthermore, it is like spitting in the face of those who have been injured, in this case by Misplaced Pages policies that have put some sort of robotic "thinking" over humane dealings with each other.

I learned a lot in those years that I worked in that setting. For another thing, I learned to swear. When MF says fuck, cunt, or whatever swear words he's been accused of using to destroy!!! Misplaced Pages, he is using those words because he is expressing a deep Truth of some sort or another. Move forward Misplaced Pages, don't be stuck in the juvenile past. Grow up. Or have I had too much New Year's eggnog? Sometimes it's hard to know... Gandydancer (talk) 18:09, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I guess everybody knows by now that I am with MF (who was always gentle to me and probably is to everyone who respects). That I wiki-linked one of those words in another editor's comment, is perhaps less known ;) (Needless to say, I received the other's blessing afterwards.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Finding a balance of focusing on positive things, while still trying to fix or deal with the negative things, well, isn't always easy. Most of the work I do myself on the negative stuff is done outside of the WER talk page, but there isn't much I can do after the fact in these situations, at least not any single stroke of the pen. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:31, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

When MF says fuck, cunt, or whatever swear words he's been accused of using to destroy!!! Misplaced Pages, he is using those words because he is expressing a deep Truth of some sort or another.' I grant you that may be true when he "says" those words...but not when he types them. And that is the big difference. In RL, we blurt out things...say things in a quick emotional response...triggers that go off because of habit or culture or setting. With a keyboard there is a time delay, a moment to ponder, to decide, to reconsider past behavior, to evaluate the consequences. And its not the words (fuck, cunt, etc.). Its the power play behind them. Humane dealings with each other doesnt include aggresive word choices.```Buster Seven Talk 19:06, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, I think that I should not have tried to discuss Truth while I was in such a jolly good New Year's day mood and I'm a little embarrassed. ;-) You are right Buster. I've learned over the years to set a strongly emotional reply aside for a few hours or even a day before I hit Save. Almost always I end up deleting rather than keeping it. I've also learned to never PWD (post while drunk), but I forgot that rule yesterday. Gandydancer (talk) 13:25, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Things that are difficult and easy (1 edit/day)

These things are very time consuming and difficult.

• Researching details for an article
• Creating high-quality content
• Writing high-quality prose
• Finding and formatting high-quality citations

These things are very quick and easy

• Reverting edits
• Edit warring
• Joining in a fight at a notice board or talk page
• Nominating articles / files for deletion
• Tagging articles
• Deleting articles / files
• Blocking users

The things that make a high-quality encyclopedia are completely overwhelmed by the things that don't.

The obvious solution = One edit per day

• With one edit per day, one may create a new article
• With one edit per day, one may add a whole pile of references.
• With one edit per day, one may copyedit an article
• With one edit per day, one may NOT get in to a huge fight
• With one edit per day, one may NOT go block crazy
• With one edit per day, one may NOT revert a bunch of good edits
• With one edit per day, one may NOT go tag crazy across article space or user space

Restricting people to one edit per day makes them slow down and think about what they are doing. It also makes them decide what is the most valuable thing they can do with their one edit for that particular day. It levels the playing field in the direction of building a high-quality encyclopedia.

Of course we all know this is an awful idea, so please feel free to shoot this down very quickly—and without thinking—by using your one edit for today. It's the most valuable edit you can do today. 64.40.54.37 (talk) 11:14, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

• Yes thank you. That is a salutary perspective, and not such an awful idea at all. --Epipelagic (talk) 11:22, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Unworkable in practice of course, but it does illustrate a deeper truth. Sometimes it is all too easy to lose sight of the bigger picture and our main goal of building a better encyclopaedia. The content creators are key to this, and it seems ever more the case that the hard work they do is not being treated in a decent and respectful way. Most of them are reluctant to allot a large proportion of their limited "Misplaced Pages time" to reading seemingly endless policies and then trying to puzzle out how the provisions of a relatively obscure policy can somehow take precedence over the apparently clear strictures of a much more mainstream and central policy. They can never win such discussions with a well-versed Admin, especially ones who are too focused on winning the debate, when their efforts could be better spent guiding and mentoring. One hasty and ill-considered intervention can and does lose us a lifetime of contributions. Misplaced Pages:Editcountitis is an issue here, as are lists like WP:MOSTEDITS. If only there was some way of objectively measuring the average value of a content creator's edits too... Edwardx (talk) 15:50, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that a hasty and ill-considered intervention is too much of a problem of itself. It becomes a problem when no-one will reverse it, and when the intervener becomes defensive. These are calcification processes of the individual and the community. As to objective value measurements, there are some beginning works on this, in the literature. Rich Farmbrough, 21:11, 1 January 2013 (UTC).

• Absurd and interesting as an academic exercise. I wonder what people would do if they had a limited number of edits per day. 1, 10, 20, etc. At what point would it be enough to waste one or two on useless drama? It is like of like "live each day like your last". What if people made each edit like it might be their last? Again, an interesting thought experiment. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:59, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

  Sadly I think edit warring would just be slow-motion, people would learn to answer multiple points at once, and generally continue to be as intractable as ever. Very few of these people realise that they a causing drama. I suggest to one such that he might, instead of using bad words and being negative, begin with a cheery greeting and a positive remark. The response "I will not lie!" One is on a hiding to nothing in these cases. Rich Farmbrough, 21:11, 1 January 2013 (UTC).
  

Now this interesting. Going a little more fine grained: if one had, say, only one block of an established editor per day, people may well be inclined to "keep it in reserve" rather than use it on a borderline issue. If one could only list 1 item at XfD, people might be inclined to focus on stuff that needs deleting rather than just "tidying up" deletions. One could still nominate 365 items a year, which is a lot. (I am more worried by the editor who boasts about how much stuff he has deleted than the editor who boasts about his editcount.) Maybe 1 ANI/I per month and 1 Arbcom per year. Rich Farmbrough, 21:17, 1 January 2013 (UTC).

• Interesting idea. While one edit, period, probably won't worksomething like what Rich just said seems like probably a good idea. Buggie111 (talk) 22:08, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

That, Rich, is an excellent idea.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 00:20, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages loses editors and no one notices?

Another one gone. This is interesting reading. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:27, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

• @Kudpung, just wondering why you picked this example. This particular editor is one who got discouraged becuase he/she was not voted as an ADMIN. Surely there are also other reasons for leaving Misplaced Pages? Ottawahitech (talk) 14:58, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Actually, there is a problem with editors who run for RfA and get unfairly trashed, thus leave. These are often very experienced editors, so it is a concern. It is bad to lose someone this way, when they are asking to volunteer even more and are badgered off the 'pedia. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:21, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I agree Dennis. Hearing that your 100s of hours of unpaid labor are insufficient because of some failing you didn't know existed, is so minor that no one in the real world ever mentioned it, is based your failure to live up to a demigod ideal in every conceivable manner, or is based on the fear that you're a total lunatic who can't be trusted is a great way to drive off people willing to donate 100s of hours of unpaid labor. MBisanz 15:44, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
      • My RfA had plenty of drama and I vividly remember how stressful it was. Had it failed, I would have taken a break but think I would have come back, but that is just a guess. I was trashed on CSD (using incorrect numbers), yet DGG supported me, showing how bipolar it was. I wouldn't wish my experience on anyone. It drove me to get involved in admin issues and RFA, something I was never involved in before. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
• I don't think it's exactly accurate to say that he retired because he failed RFA. Reading his explanation, it looks like he took a wikibreak after his RFA, and then when he was preparing to return from that, found himself too discouraged about long-term problem editors being enabled to bother returning. And he has a very good point - sometimes we spend so much time and energy trying to "retain" people who are repeated drains on community patience, time, and goodwill that we just sort of forget that the very act of draining those things from the community's (and "editor retention" specialists') finite resources of energy deprives non-problematic editors of that energy. I'd be very interested to see how many non-big name editors - the ones who are just gnoming away, doing good, and occasionally get bitten or snapped at and get upset - we could save if we spent more time supporting them and less time fighting to keep the usual suspects happy. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 19:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

  That has been the topic of a few discussions, how do you find those people? Most of the time, the topic du jure is about those people, only recently have a few high profile names come to dominate the discussion. This was what I talked about before, why SPI is a part of retention, as socks interfere by causing POV fights with legitimate editors, who finally get fed up and leave. We know that we miss the majority of these departures because the editor who gets fed up is just a regular Joe, low profile, and just plugs away until he gets fed up one day with either edit warriors, socks, drama queens or the process itself. We likely can't find those editors, which is why working on the overall environment here is so important. That is the only way I know to keep from losing those editors. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

  Certainly none of us have psychic powers super enough to give us "random user is leaving" radar, no. But those aren't the low-hanging fruit, anyway. The low-hanging fruit is things like "Newbie X is getting yelled at by Oldie Y" or "Editor X, new to Content Process Z, trips over standards that Experienced Editor Y isn't willing to explain". This happens so often it's almost laughable. What do you do when you come across it? Who do you support, from an editor-retention perspective? What tends to happen is that a lot of people - a lot of the names I see commenting heavily on this talk page, even - will attempt to address that by either counseling X that they shouldn't have angered Y, or begging Y to stay on as an editor when Y threatens to leave because they have to deal with X. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone if X's response to that (or the responses of uninvolved editors Q, A, B, D...) is to quietly retreat, from the situation and possibly from the project. After all, they've not only not been supported, they've been told this is all their fault and that Y is the victim. This is what I mean when I say that too much energy gets put into "saving" frequent fliers, and not enough into "saving" the people who clash with or are alarmed by them. And I think that was part of Dayewalker's point, as well - on any given day, you can load up ANI and probably see at least one long-term problem editor who's taken a chunk out of the hide of someone else...and 90% of the time, those threads end in the person who lost hide being castigated, while the hide-taker remains an editor in good standing subject to no sanction or, perhaps worse, sanctions that they're protected from by friends. It's not a happy thing to see, especially from the perspective of someone who's maybe afraid enough as it is that they might accidentally run into the hide-taker. It's quite enough to make people of a certain non-confrontational mindset throw up their hands and decide that the only way to avoid the abuse is to leave, because they're obviously not going to be supported if the hide-taker's attention ever falls on them. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:20, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

  And if the hide-taker's an admin? Or one of the flock of superficially-civil POV pushers? <shrugs> But I give up. Best to simply duck down and suffer or go. Intothatdarkness 20:26, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

@ Fluffernutter. You bring up a VERY good point....Fear. Ive had ten of dozens of WP occasions where I was reluctant to speak up because I didn't want the bullies eyes (and "the posse' eyes) to turn to me. I think most editors might be reluctant to put their necks into a noose. Plus, I worry less about the regular combatants (editor and admin) than I do about the New Editor that is speechlessly surprised by angry words and tone. ```Buster Seven Talk 21:01, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I'm not sure what you're getting at here, Intothatdarkness. Admins are subject to the same policies as everyone else, as are POV pushers. You could certainly make an argument that some aren't always held to those, but the same could be said of certain non-admins or non-POV pushers. The divide is less admin/non-admin than politically-connected/unconnected, in my experience. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:05, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

  My point is, quite simply, that being subject to policies isn't the same thing as being held accountable to them. There seems to be a disappointing tendency to focus on those who scream the loudest and not look further in. And I've seen enough POV pushers hide behind the whole AGF mantra to have much faith in their being subject to policy except in very obvious cases. Misplaced Pages often appears to function more as a collection of tribes, and those tribes can be counted on to protect their own. Intothatdarkness 21:12, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

  • • • • I personally get a lot of those cases dropped on my talk page, here, email, etc. I go do what it is I do, mediate, help the new user, sometimes mentoring the new user, and explaining to the barking party that they need to not bite the newbs. Honestly, success with the barking party is limited as some people are just that way but being short fused once in a blue moon isn't enough to justify blocking them either. As far as the newb who is bitten, we often escort them to the Teahouse, adopt them, and follow up a while. Several editors here are really good at that. See User talk:Allisgod above if you want to see what I do personally. Unfortunately, they have yet to come back and that was a bit unusual of a circumstance. Some do keep editing, some don't, all we can do is try. Of course, I'm all ears for suggestions. That is what we do here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:32, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
          • (edit conflict) That's definitely a start, Dennis, and it's good work you do, but mediation and compromise, while useful in the majority of cases, can lead to missing the point when someone is actually, literally wrong in how they're treating the other person. Asking a cat and a mouse to compromise on the mouse's fate is likely to end in the mouse missing a tail, and it shouldn't be surprising if eventually the mice just opt not to come to the table in the first place. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:05, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
            • I've been debating how to redesign the project, and we've talked about it. What can we do to expand what we do without crossing any lines and causing problems WP:WQA doesn't exist, which handled some of those issues. Most don't belong at ANI or even an admin board. You don't have to add your name to the official membership to participate here, but honestly, nothing would please me more than if you did and helped us figure out a more formal way of helping people. Since starting the project, I've kind of taken a little bit of a back seat on the direction it takes, and just tried to let it grow organically. I don't have all the answers, I know that. But you have some experience, and it seems the desire, to help us formalize the place, maybe where we have a section for reporting "editors who need help", and helping them. Not sanctions, not the negative stuff, but like I did above, and more. I look at WP:OPP for instance. It isn't an admin board but it is a project that performs a function. If you have some firm ideas or are just willing to help with this, I would spin off a new page and help develop the idea. We need ideas and help to make sure we don't overstep our authority, which means admin experience like yours. We aren't afraid of change here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:11, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
              • I'm afraid that as far as your suggestion that I work from within this project, I'm unlikely to be either comfortable or welcome here. My idea of an ideal "editor retention" project would focus on encouraging good faith and supportive behavior among editors, and on working hard to hold all editors to minimum behavioral standards - if we want to retain editors, we need to stop desperately "retaining" the editors who drive others away and start working to encourage the people who are being driven. Given that, as I noted above, a lot of the loudest voices here are voices that I find to be taking something resembling the opposite approach, and that I expect the owners of those voices would be very upset indeed to see me trying to push through my approach instead...I don't think this project and I are suited for one another. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 05:31, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
                • This project isn't of one mind :) There is no singular agenda, other than discussing ways to keep editors. There are often debates about particular editors, and trust me, there is a split on those points. Half the place already agrees with you, check the membership roster. I try to focus my efforts here on stuff we do agree on. Many of the members volunteer at the Teahouse, for example, do new page patrols to find and help new editors, etc. But there is no "WikiProject Editor Retention Official Stance" on the controversial issues, we aren't a political group. We often just agree to disagree on some issues or individuals and don't take it personal. It is actually easier to do that here, since we all agree on the general principles that retention is an issue that needs addressing at every level. You would fit in just fine. You and I might disagree on a few editors, but seriously Fluff, we agree on 90% of everything else. The key is for us to cooperate on those things, like new editors getting bit. Like I said before, only recently have a few editors in particular dominated the discussion, and I go out of my way to never tell people what to say, even if I try to gently steer the discussion in a more general direction. For some, it is a place to vent a bit, and we tolerate that here. Better here than elsewhere. All opinions are welcome, but what actions we focus on here should be more universal in nature, including the positive things you would like to see happen. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:32, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
                  • • • • Editor Fluffer. We really are just a bunch of marshmellows. Forget the occasion rants. The couches are comfy and the TEA is good. ```Buster Seven Talk 14:55, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict @ 20:04) The comments and soliloquies an editor leaves as they depart are often inciteful and informative. WE should collect and archive them for future research. User:Dayewalkers case is not one of discouragemnet over not achieving Adminship. Far from it. He is discouraged by the continuous and foreboding actions of editors that are repeatedly in attack mode, getting blocked, and yet still participants in the process. Dayewalker states: "So upon seeing that regular troublemakers were still shaking off blocks and going right back to their semi-civil disruption, I didn't really feel like contributing my time to the project any longer. If you don’t protect actual editors in favor of making troubled, obsessive editors bulletproof, eventually you’re going to run off people who are…well, sane." That's not sour grapes. That's an accurate report from a quality editor doing quality work. We should listen rather than label him chastised and pissed off because of it. ```Buster Seven Talk 20:04, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

There are a great quantity of editors that leave over their disapointment with the way article promote figures using non RS and throw fact away and place tabloid journalism references over verifiable information that cannot be cited. Jimbo has stated that being verifiable does not mean there has to be an RS inline citation, but only that the infor CAN be verified. We need to sart addressing anything we can as editors that is a ligitimate complaint and see if we, as individuals can do something to address their concerns. I think Fluff is a great editor to work in this manner. He/she may not want to support very editor (nor do I) but...we do try to retain everyone who is registered. We give it a shot and then we stop when they make it clear they don't care about our concerns. Even the editors who may be very controversial. Everyone deserves a second chance. Maybe not a 3RD, 4TH and 5TH....but we at least try to reach out and help everyone.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:42, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

False sockpuppetry

I was reading through the guide to appealing blocks and this sentence leapt out at me : If you are improperly blocked for sockpuppetry, you should realize that it may not always be easy or even possible to correct the situation.

Has this happened? I'd be interested to know if we lost any editors who were incorrectly accused of sockpuppetry and left because the situation couldn't be resolved. I know one that came close but was resolved by (iirc) a Skype call. --Ritchie333 19:28, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

The phrase "or even possible" should be removed. Binksternet (talk) 19:32, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I know a case of someone who was "incorrectly accused of sockpuppetry", had himself blocked, left and never returned. Top of my talk. It was the first but not last time that I felt we are losing the best, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

ps: once you are there, find "But I'll try and be gentle. Malleus Fatuorum" ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:51, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

A very difficult one was solved recently by Alison, and I think using Skype. I was involved with that one previously. I'm just 6 months into working at SPI, and most cases are fairly obvious, but there are some that are very difficult to determine. Those are kicked out, at least most of the time, but it would be naive to think we have never been wrong. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:49, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd be ecstatic if all sock blocks came out of SPI instead of some editor invoking duck because a new editor didn't meet the expected level of incompetence (maybe they RTFM?). NE Ent 19:54, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

You can always send it to SPI to get some review. We have a backlog most of the time, however. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:40, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Let me also add this: I'm confident that the vast majority of the blocks at SPI are accurate, and have a great deal of oversight. Not perfect, but two or three different people at a minimum see each case, and often many more. Blocking socks is important to stop edit warring and other problems that chase off good editors. No one wants to have to deal with 4 people "outvoting" you at AFD or a page move discussion to discover they are really just one person. That is discouraging enough to make people give up and leave. The key is being sure when you block, and that isn't always easy. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Alteration to the block policy

I have proposed an alteration to hopefully aid retention here Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:04, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

This is a key proposal, which is attempting to restrict the ability of admins to block users without any warning, a matter which definitely affects editor retention. However, the motion as it stands applies to all users, and it will fail because some users should be blocked without warning. Still the comments there provide interesting snapshots of entrenched admin attitudes towards control, and highlight why changes for the better are probably not possible, short of jettisoning the entire admin system in its current ridiculous form. The proposal could perhaps be relaunched in a form which confines it to long term content editors, though it's still unlikely to succeed. Some admins are insisting that after one block no further warnings should be given. Blocks will just descend out of the blue. The more you contribute, the more you become at risk. The admins who are pushing for approaches like this are notably deficient in their own content contributions, and presumably lack any empathy for what it is like to work in the hostile environment they are promoting. --Epipelagic (talk) 05:03, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Bully admins at wikipedia

I have been a contributing volunteer member of wikipedia for a little over five years. I have had a lot of good interactions with other editors and some I consider hostile. One thing I noticed, and wonder if others share, is what I believe to be bullying behavior by a minority of admins, which to me was and is a big problem because it forces me to waste valuable time (pardon the expression) covering my ass, rather than spending every free minute I have contributing content to wikipedia.

I would be happy to post refs to this type of behavior if anyone is interested. Ottawahitech (talk) 02:49, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

That is a tad unfair really. Look, the last admin I thought was being a bit bullying was User:Dennis Brown. However, after a good deal of interaction with that admin I have discovered my own bias with admin was more of an issue than anything he was doing. Somethings don't look right throught the red filter of anger. Just calm down and look at what they have to deal with. It has been my experiance over the last year that admin are over worked and terribly tired and this can sometimes show through. What is the answer....? Take some of that work yourself. There is no reason each of us cannot begin to work in areas that do not need admin specifically. As I said before...we all need to help out at AN/I, DR/N, RS/N etc. Try to see it this way...I don't ever want to be an admin. I would hate the obligation. So help out where you can and see if that doesn't help.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:01, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

My first run-in with a bully editor was with a MUCH revered administrator. I was an innocent lamb and he basically left me stunned with his force and venom. If I told y'all who, you would not believe it. He was much loved and looked up to but my impression was he attacked me for no reason...and left a scar. 'nuff said. ```Buster Seven Talk 14:12, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

There is a related discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Blocking policy. Neotarf (talk) 01:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Templates for newcomers: {{this is a new user}} and {{edited by a new user}}

Check out {{this is a new user}} and {{edited by a new user}}. :) Works in all namespaces. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 08:57, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Is it possible to replace the stop image. It looks like a warning message.--Amadscientist (talk) 09:04, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you can make the change yourself but I prefer to leave it 'cuz it gets people attention to STOP and read the notice. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 09:10, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Traditionally, the stop is meant to tell the editor being left the message to "Stop" doing "whatever it is they are doing". This could come across in the wrong way.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:14, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. With that icon, it's a scary template. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:33, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Stop sends the wrong message. ```Buster Seven Talk 14:14, 3 January 2013 (UTC) Ive reconsidered. The message is actually for taggers or stalkers or drive-by editors...editors that may not read a more innocent tag. They will notice and read a STOP sign. ```Buster Seven Talk 14:28, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Could you add "helpful" to the list of thing to be aware of on these templates? Gtwfan52 (talk) 19:36, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

 Done—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 20:25, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

 Comment: I think these templates are patronising, the use of the Stop icon is way OTT, and although the idea has its merits, they will encourage new users to do even less work and leave it up to experienced users to clean up after them. More encouragement to read the rules and guidelines is needed instead. What is really needed now where most new first articles appear to be biographies, bands, and corporate promotion, is pressure to be applied on the WMF who promised a proper landing page nearly 2 years ago, and appeared to have done nothing more about it since. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

some people may find them appropriate--we do get some inexperienced users. But certainly not with anything that implies anything the least negative, in words or images. I'm not sure what image is best, but not the stop sign!! DGG ( talk ) 05:49, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

 Fixed using File:Lifebelt and man icon.svg now. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 06:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

We are beta testing this template with User:Anne Delong and so far she has been consistently contributing to Toronto Light Opera Association, adding more sources, content, and what not. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 06:37, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Still not sure about the template or its use, but loving the user Anne Delong!--Amadscientist (talk) 06:52, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps the image on the new editor's barnstar that Amadscientist recently created at my request (I am graphically challenged) would be more appropriate, but it would have to be shrunk. I just realized no one shared this really useful tool to this page and it kind of goes with this thread, so here:

		The Excellent New Editor's Barnstar
		Put your message here. Gtwfan52 (talk) 06:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I have way too much going on. I forgot all about this. I need to change the color of the blanket and make it less "Cheesy".--Amadscientist (talk) 06:36, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

On the bright side.....I have declared I am male. _{(OK...so that may only be funny to a few of us)}--Amadscientist (talk) 06:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

The Teahouse – Why is that working so well, and can we learn from it?

Hypothesis, based on some vague observation. You may disagree:

• Most social or meta- attempts at WP fail.
• The Teahouse seems to be working well. Better than any similar project I can recall.
• What are we doing right over there, and can we extend the lessons?

Andy Dingley (talk) 10:31, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• The Teahouse has largely been the brainchild of Sarah, so that's clearly something being done right. I have taken a pretty active role over there, and I think one of the key things is the environment, which is "friendly" (e.g., the manner in which questions are answered: "Hi x and welcome to the Teahouse" and not overlinking to policies). It kind of reminds me of the saying when you do things right, word gets around. I agree, the Teahouse is doing excellently and it's something I enjoy being a part of. As for what we can learn, I think it might simply mean that we need to strive to be friendly and welcoming to new users. I know of several cases where a newcomer was fed up with runaround policy links they were given elsewhere and as a last resort on their way out the door asked their question at the Teahouse and are still here today. So, to summarize I think the lesson to be learned there is that newcomers often get bit, or at the very least given circular policy links which, let's face it, sometimes established users, much less newcomers can't understand or certainly not apply, so we should strive to make things simple for them, at least in the beginning. That's the editor retention aspect of it. Go Phightins! 11:45, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
• Not wanting to take away from the excellent work done at the teahouse, but it's an area of wikipedia that's very pleasant to work in. It's easy to be nice to new people who are curious about the site, as evidenced by the help desk which also gives new editors answers very quickly - as does the IRC help channel. I don't believe that the social aspects do that much for the teahouse... To see what I mean, just look at the page view statistics - Q&A page 11,480 views in the past month, hosts profiles 936, Guest profiles 599. I do approve of the teahouse, but I think it's scaleability is limited. Worm(talk) 12:15, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

  We refer people to the Teahouse all the time, it is a great place and we don't want to duplicate their efforts. A lot of what we see here is when editors get into a bind, a fight, frustration, etc. Not an ANI issue, just discouragement. We would probably do our best work as a bridge. That and finding ways to reward and encourage in general. I've been talking to Fluffernutter about that above, setting up some kind of structure here to help frustrated editors. Fill part of the void left with the closing of WP:WQA, but not focused only on civility and doing it as a project, not an admin board. Kind of like how WP:OPP helps out other areas as a project and not a board. We don't want to be in the sanction business here, just the mediation, helping, education business. That is just part of retention, solving problems that aren't "violations". Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:20, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The thing that I found good about Teahouse was the lack of bite there. I had a lot of problems understanding how to do things, and was getting bit on talk pages rather regularly, and then I got an invite to the Teahouse. We have been railing back and forth here over civility, and I agree with Dennis in that it is really something that cannot be enforced all that well. However, the lack of civility is a huge problem when it comes to keeping new editors here. Think about it. What would your reaction be if on your first foray into editing here, you were greeted with "WP:XYZ, WP:BLP, WP:GNG, if you don't know this you haven't got a WP:CLUE and why are you wasting my time?"

Something I think that would be workable would be a kind of "Alternative Sentencing" area that we could run for new users that did end up at a noticeboard. That would not be usurping any of the noticeboard's powers, it would just give them an alternative to blocks and interaction bans. We could then provide tutoring in a "kinder, gentler" way and administer an exit test prior to turning the new editor back out to edit at will. Just a thought.

One other thing. I really don't understand what Worm is trying to say with those stats. What does it prove to know how many people looked at the host or guest profiles? I would say that 11,000 plus views of the Q/A board shows just how successful it is. Gtwfan52 (talk) 19:31, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Alternative Sentencing

Kind of like Purgatory... derived from the Latin word purgatorium, suffering short of everlasting damnation. But rather than a place of suffering and torment, it (Alternative sentencing) is a place of education and nurturing...especially one that is temporary and without the eternal WP blemish of having been banned. Like ```Buster Seven Talk 23:12, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• This "AltSen" idea has great potential, I think. Its provides a middle ground for admins to send their delinquent editors. A choice between "Go and sin no more" and "You have been banned". Instead its-----"Spend some time with those editors over at WER. They are a reasonable bunch and will assist you." ```Buster Seven Talk 13:33, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Project Banner

Please use {{WikiProject Editor Retention}} or {{WPER}} from now on! —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 16:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Have you created a Project assessment page yet? Also, have we discussed what pages we see under our scope to place this on? Looking below I also notice that the category pages are still redlinked.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Project assessment page

I have created the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Editor retention/Assessment page. This page contains all the categories associated with the project banner placement, additional pages for the project that include a reassessment page and the criteria associated with listing within ratings categories.. While the page has been made, the category pages have not yet been created and will require further work. If you are familiar with the creation of these pages and would like to help out, please free to do so. If you are unsure about how these are created, please request assistance or you can find information on Project pages here. There may also be other places to find more information located at the WikiProject Council page here. If you have questions I suggest User:John Carter as the best human resource for project information. Ask nicely and be patient as John is a very active editor but he seems to be willing to extend a helping hand. (also a WER member). If no one else gets to it, I will slowly start full set up.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:41, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Call me dense (or Ishmael, I don't care), but what types of pages would this project monitor? This seems like a strictly overhead type project. Gtwfan52 (talk) 03:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

OK...Ishmael, we don't actually monitor articles under the project scope so much as we attempt to keep up when needed or notified per the banner. Editors may wish to improve them etc and raise the rating level. Mainly (at least for now) this is a good way to keep track of all the project subpages, templates and userboxes. As the project advances it may well expand its scope to include some articles, essays and policy pages. As an example see: Misplaced Pages talk:Merging, where Wikiproject Merge has included the Merge policy page under its scope. Pages for our project here, may include such pages as BRD and other essays, articles like Collaborative editing and perhaps even some policy pages with a direct context to editors and retention such as Misplaced Pages:Be bold and Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. We will probably need an additional banner with no assement or rating as is done both WikiProject Merge (which has both) and WikiProject Dispute Resolution.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:34, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

CSD templates and rationales (or lack thereof)

I'm not sure where the most appropriate avenue is, but I'll put it here to start with as it should attract the right audience. As some of you may have noticed, I've been semi-regularly checking articles tagged with {{db-a7}}, and undoing any that I disagree with (which isn't actually that many), giving a reason why in each case. One of the problems I see is that, unlike PROD and AfD, you don't have to give a rationale to tag something for CSD (the idea being that the "db-" part of the template is the rationale. Forcing a tagger to give a one sentence explanation might go some way towards making the process a little more palatable for everyone. As it is, I've seen a few articles tagged as A7, thought "WTF?", because a standard Twinkle or Page Curator doesn't give me any idea what was going through the tagger's head at the time. What does everyone else think? --Ritchie333 11:30, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

As you say, the CSD criteria are the rationales. They have been carefully selected to be kept to a minimum, and carefully worded to avoid ambiguity. Anyone who has a good understanding of deletion policies should have no difficulty in understanding them and applying them, especially if they have read WP:NPP and WP:DELETION. The problem is that many patrollers either haven't read those pages or don't have enough experience. What is needed is a better class of patroller rather than continuing to allow NPP to be the playground of every newbie who wants to feel the power of wielding a stick over Misplaced Pages articles. That said, however, I think NPP has improved since the introduction of the new page feed, because I don't seem to be warning as many patollers as I used to. Unfortunately, NPP is still severely backlogged and where we have 5,000 editors with reviewer right for pending changes, we only have on average about 5 users patrolling new pages at any one time. Perhaps it's just not interesting enough due to the very fact that it needs neither a user right nor a demonstration of experience. Poor tagging does not help user retention, and while admins should probably lead by example, even one admin/WMF staffer nearly lost us a good contributor not so long ago through drive-by tagging. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Interesting Discussion

regarding newbies @ Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Usernames: STOP BITING THE NEWBIES... ```Buster Seven Talk 13:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

'Misplaced Pages losing editors', study says

Interesting article at http://phys.org/news/2013-01-wikipedia-editors.html - note comments. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:40, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Also note the right side article from November, 2009 on that same site. ```Buster Seven Talk 23:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Yep! That is why I want to help here. We should also keep editor attrition in the back of our minds when !voting on deletion discussions. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs)

Some editors are not worth retaining

Lets not forget that some editors are not worth retaining. See User talk:Tunoapeggy for example. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 02:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps...but NO editor is not worth trying.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I disagree completely. Of the 48,463,817 editors (and counting) there is a large number that start out as a vandal and don't stop until they are blocked. We waste a huge amount of time with them. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 06:20, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I see no evidence of vandalism or sockpuppetry in the account you linked to. I pictured two 14 year old boys sitting next to each other at school and whose first language is not English. I didn't realise "We don't want your sort round here" was an acceptable excuse. --Ritchie333 07:53, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Not as if 13 and 14 year olds don't sockpuppet, but I get your point.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I guess that is plausible. Anyway, how many editors are we loosing because we spend all of our time keeping all the rubbish out instead of adding actual content? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 08:17, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

"Rubbish" is such an objective term - by that logic, I'd like to speedy delete Cheryl Cole. What seems rubbish to us is often not rubbish to somebody else - otherwise it wouldn't have been added in good faith. A better, albeit more difficult, approach is to convince the editor adding the supposed junk that it is junk. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest Tunoapeggy doesn't know how to edit their talk page, hasn't read any messages, or at least not understood them, and on discovering they're blocked might create another sockpuppet account for good measure. --Ritchie333 08:26, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

When I say rubbish I mean the stuff that we all want to get rid of - that stuff that is speedily deleted and the outright vandalism. Yeah sure, there is all the stuff that is in a grey area. AfDs for instance. As for Tunoapeggy I find it hard to believe that she/he cannot and has not read and understood the talk page notices. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 08:38, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The toy articles are not copyvios, nonsense or personal attacks. Probably the parent page should be Fijit Friends and the rest redirects, or they should redirect to Mattel, butthey appear to be a significant phenomenon. I share Ritchie's concern that we are banning both accounts with a pointer to an empty evidence page. Rich Farmbrough, 16:53, 5 January 2013 (UTC).

WP:NOUSERS and its implications

Have any of you read WP:NOUSERS? I'm the author and I truly beleive it will be best if we get rids of users altogether, no usernames, no visible IPs (only admins could see them), etc. I mean, sites like wiki.answers.com work that way and are immensively successful (you can register an account but nobody knows who edited what). —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 07:16, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

My first thought was.....this guy/gal just lost all support I might have had for them. My next thought was.....is he/she trying to tear apart Misplaced Pages or build it back up? Not knowing which...you still lost my support.

Look, you have contributed to this project. It is not an article. Does that make the "content" you created less valuable? If we go by what you are saying, then yes. Think anout it, then get back to me. You are creating a heck of a lot of work without DISCUSSING it with us here. Does that mean I cannot just help out where you left off. Frankly.....I am beginning to think twice about it now. You seem to be willing to do away with "Users"....but not admin. Now that...I find odd.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:10, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

My rationale for having accounts is for accountability. If you made all editing completely anonymous and unaccountable, WP would start to resemble 4Chan and vandalism and copyvios would shoot through the roof. Or are you talking about not using real names and keeping on and off wiki lives separate, which we do anyway. --Ritchie333 08:18, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Some have a separate wikiname and real name. For others they are one and the same. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 08:22, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Not sure I have tried hard to understand what are you exactrly trying to say and I just can't. Could you please rephrase what you just posted as if I were a 5 year old? Regarding discussing stuff here: this is a WikiProject, it is not an authority on what can or can not be created on Misplaced Pages. If you don't like what I have I created then you can either submit it for speedy deletion or AfD it. Now, regarding admins, they are needed no matter what for legal reasons (removing copyvios) but my proposal is that admins are unknown as well. Essentially Misplaced Pages would become entirely transparent for the general public, with administrators being the only who would know who's who (nobody would know who's an administrator either except other administrators). —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 18:37, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I was considering what would happen if someone used a new account for every edit, which amounts to the same thing. And I think it fairly clear that we could still handle copyvios. Vandalism too would be containable, with slight modifications to allow the system to block IP's associated with vandalism patterns (e.g. frequently reverted by different IPs with vandalism summaries). What you might not be able to contain, though is edit wars.

On a different point, editors would still create identities, either by naively signing their edit summaries, or PGP signing them on a different platform. So anonymity could not be preserved. Trusted users would emerge, cliques and projects would form....

Rich Farmbrough, 15:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC).

We would have to change the license here, as the GFDL and CC/attrib wouldn't allow this. That said, I don't like the idea as it would give too much power to too few: the admin. We already have more power than we need with the tools we are given. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:15, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Users already submit without being registered. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 18:37, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

How would you be able to identify who's who when anyone can impersonate anyone else? It's like me signing as 'Ahnoneemoos' and then somebody else signs as that as well. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 18:37, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Because the history shows that if "Bob" signs as you, it is obviously not really you. And I would warn, then block "Bob" for signing as you. We don't worry about the talk pages as much as the actual history. And yes, some of us do really check the histories, and catch bad sigs regularly. The license doesn't care about sigs though, only the article and talk page history itself. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:42, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You missed the point. With this proposal your username wouldn't show up on the history page and your talk page would be visible only to you and administrators. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 04:20, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

 Comment: May I remind everyone that Misplaced Pages operates under a CC-by-SA licence? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:54, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

And still unregistered users contribute to it. What's your point? —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 04:20, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Uhm.......attribution.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:17, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

That was my point as well. Misplaced Pages couldn't do this even if we thought it was a good idea, but I still feel it isn't a good idea even if we could. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 09:26, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

IANAL but AFAIK cc-by-sa only requires you to link to our license but does not require you to attribute every single user that contributed to the article. Could you please expand on this concern and detail it as if I were a 5 year old? —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 14:47, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually it kinda does. It depends on how you use the content. If you don't want to go through the entire history to find the exact user that created a particular line, the ones who contributed to it and modified it, you just link to the article history. That is all that need be done, but is a requirement of attribution. This is what is done all the time when you see mirror pages of Misplaced Pages content. Also, if you use an image you most certainly DO need to attrbute the specific author in the manner that they have indicated. Some of my images require attribution to my username and some to my actual name. And trust me...I have been down this road with companies attributing my work another (a major newspaper, whos' name I will not mention) and a major restaurant chain (again no names) that used a bunch of my images with no attribution at all...by blowing them up and making wall paper out of them. After contacting the corporate offices they added a small silver engraved plate with "photos by...". So you are actually incorrect about the attribution thing.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

CC-by-sa requires us to attribute authorship, but there a couple of concessions to practicality: tracing authorship requires trailing edit histories, which are long, and there's no automatic system for showing the overall authorship, authorship of the preserved content alone, or attributing line by line (these all exist for MediaWiki, but aren't used on Misplaced Pages). Secondly attribution only has to be made to the intersection of what WP supports (as above) and the author themselves offer. I edit under my real name, but others edit under noms de plume or merely an IP. This is still within the terms of CC-by. No editor is constrained to edit here, to give fuller information for -by- attribution purposes if they don't wish to, or to edit here if they consider WP's attribution level to be inadequate for their own needs. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:21, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Block on unblocking

I'm just looking at an editor who I actually think behaved worse than he is accused of, and I also believe is worth unblocking. He says "No thanks I'd rather not. Is 6 months going to really change an editor? Probably not. If I were to come back I would probably be editing like I have, being extra careful to not run into situations like this. I just don't understand the need for 6 months." This editor is unable to utter the shibboleth required for unblocking, but this statement makes it clear his intentions are perfectly in line with what we need. Sure often an editor like this will get carried away and "re-offend" but then they just get booted for good - if they actually can control themselves they can contribute for years. Pragmatically, according to pay-off, we should unblock.
Rich Farmbrough, 15:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC).

• It is really hard to generalize, as every situation is different. There is a difference in someone edit warring over diacritics and someone injecting bad BLP info into "accused" bios, for instance. But in general, I believe in second chances, as does the entire philosophy of Misplaced Pages. I'm less concerned about apologies for past behavior than I am with someone having a clear path forward. I would note that I may be in the minority. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:13, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Retaining editors at AfC

You may be interested to read the responses I got at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation‎#Retaining editors. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:47, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Input from newly registered user: User:Anne Delong

A Wikipedian has requested a newly registered user to give her input on this page about what Misplaced Pages should do to retain reliable editors. User:Anne Delong might post on this thread. As a newly registered user please maintain a higher level of decor of what we usually keep. Please assume good faith, remain civil, and be calm, patient, helpful, and polite with her.

I have asked User:Anne Delong to give us her opinion on her experience joining Misplaced Pages. Anne joined us on December 7, 2012 (about a month ago) and has significantly contributed to the Toronto Light Opera Association article and many others. As a newly registered user I ask you to please maintain a higher level of decor of what we usually keep in Misplaced Pages.

To Anne:

1.  Question: What posed a challenge to you when contributing to Misplaced Pages?
   
2.  Question: What did you find difficult or frustating?
   
3.  Question: How was your interaction with other contributors?
   
4.  Question: How easy (or difficult) was it for you to contribute to Misplaced Pages?
   
5.  Question: What can we do to retain editors like you?

—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 14:19, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. You ask -- twice -- that we "maintain a higher level of decor of what we usually keep". Shouldn't our level of decorum be the same for all editors?. Regardless, you might unveil some helpful insight from Anne Delong. Moriori (talk) 21:16, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Flashback to 2008, when an editor left Misplaced Pages in frustration: Me

I was digging up old barnstars when I ran across this comment by ME, right before I got frustrated with an ugly AfD and left Misplaced Pages for two full years. It sounds like so many other comments we see. This kind of frustration is why I came back seeking the adminship and started WP:WER soon after. Ironically, some of the people that caused me the most grief are now banned and I catch socks for at SPI. Sadly, several friends from that time are also gone. Just thought I would share that. I do understand the frustration people feel, and why they leave, because I've been there and done that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 20:50, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Out of curiousity, what brought you back to editing again? The Interior (Talk) 20:55, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Good question, I haven't really analysed it much. I still read Misplaced Pages while on break, as I love to read and learn. If I found an error (spelling, etc.) I would just fix it as an IP, by the end of the two years, I was making more than a few edits a day and missing the "community" aspect of working with others towards a common goal. I never quit believing in the idea of a "💕" (I'm also a bit Linux and GPL fan), I just lost faith in some of the people in charge at that time. I decided if I came back, it would have to be different, I would become an admin and help create change in a positive way. To try to fix the problems from the inside using positive methods, instead of just bitching about them from the outside, with a negative attitude. Armed with a new goal, I worked every day toward that goal and got the bit. Since then, my time is split between helping fellow frustrated editors (via here, SPI and ANI) and creating content. Even now, my goal is to persuade people to cooperate, not to point fingers and lay blame. You can see the actual break in my editing here . Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:38, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

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