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Lazyfoxx

Rich Farmbrough

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Rich Farmbrough

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Fram (talk) 08:34, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Rich Farmbrough (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Rich Farmbrough#Rich Farmbrough prohibited from using automation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. (16 January 2013):

This edits has serious problems, and the only expanation for these errors that I can reasonably think of is that Rich Farmbrough ran a script across a number of sources, and dumped the result in the article. While this is only one page, it is still using automated editing, and a return to the problems that caused the restriction in the first place.

• The entries for Assam are completely wrong, probably because the pdf used () starts at 1, goes to 24, and then starts again at 1 (which are details of number 24), to continue after 96 again with 25. A human wouldn't have much problems with this, but a script or bot can't handle this and creates lists like the one we have gotten here.

• The entries for Chattisgarh are botched at entry 26, which has a subset in the original pdf , which causes the script to go all haywire here.

Less serious contentwise, but typical of the use (and lack of control) of a script are the following issues:

• When there are multiple entries (column one) or multiple designations (column three), a "return" is only addad after the first one, not noticing that more than two entries are possible. See e.g. Andra Pradesh 1 or 26 for examples of the first, and Andra Pradesh 15, 23 or 26 for examples of the second (layout problem)

• Strange entries in column 2. See e.g. the first entry for Assam (with the thrice repeated " ,,,"Andhra Pradesh "), or the wrong ordering of Bihar, where 124 b and 124 a are placed before 1 - 2 - 3..., or the first entry for Chattisgarh; again something a script botches but a human hasn't any problem with.

I have stopped checking in detail after Chattisgarh, skimming the rest of the very long page seems to show similar errors all the way down.

The systematic and stupid nature of the errors clearly shows that this is not something caused by manual editing, but by automated editing and a lack of manual checks afterwards (which was the reason for the original restriction).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I raised this issue at User talk:Rich Farmbrough#Edit that appears to be automated, hoping that another convincing explanation would be offered and that a needless AE discussion could be avoided. While a reply was swiftly given, it doesn't seem very convincing to me, claiming that the errors were caused by doing it manually (how this would explain the loss of entries in the exact same manner from both the Assam source and the Chandigarh source is not made clear, nor why other errors are made in such a systematical way either).

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Replies to Rich Farmbroughs initlal statement: I made this post originally directly beneath Rich Farmbrough's undated statement, but apparently this doesn't belong there and has been removed by Rich Farmbrough (not clear where he found the instructions to do this, but never mind). So I'll repeat my questions realting to his original statement here:

How do you explain the many missing entries? The strange note numbers like ",,,"Andhra Pradesh " ,,,"Andhra Pradesh " ,,,"Andhra Pradesh " 1" (at the first Assam entry), or the one at Rajasthan 26? The duplicate entry for Uttaranchal (1)? All caused by whatever spreadsheet you used? Fram (talk) 09:23, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@Kumioko: I have enough examples of errors created by Rich Farmbrough (directly or through his bots) which remained in the articles for months before I eventually cleaned them up to know that the "someone else will notice it if it is really a problem" mantra is false. It was also clear from the ArbCom case that comparing his number of edits with his number of errors was a false comparison, since often the edits had little or no benefit, but the errors were a lot more serious. Your claim that "Rich was actively working on the list at the time of the complaint and said that on the talk page." is a bit deceiving (his comments indicate that he had uploaded the full list and that what remained to be done was matching the lists with articles and so on; not going back to the sources he used to see whether his work was actually correct; and he had stopped working on it and moved on to othet articles, I wasn't interrupting him in the middle of edits on it) and completely misses the point; he used automation, and it caused clear and serious errors. This is what this discussion is about. If you want to rehash the whole ArbCom case, or discuss my edits, including ones that haven't got anything to do with this situation at all, then there are other venues you can use; let's stick to what is directly relevant here please. Fram (talk) 15:35, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@Rich Farmbrough: for years, you created tons of errors by mass creations and automated editing. At first, I hoped that by things would improve when you became aware of this, but when things didn't improve, you got two community imposed editing restrictions. When that didn't solve all problems and it was obvious that people still needed to check your edits for repeated or serious errors (and some other problems with your editing and admin tool use besides), the Arbcom case resulted in yet another restriction. This means that, if you followed the restriction, the need to check your edits and point out your errors would be over. However, it is quite obvious that even those restrictions aren't sufficient. When you didn't have restrictions, I was quite willing to give you the chance to correct things, but you didn't. Now, you have lost that chance, and are limited to no automated editing. Not "automated editing with Fram finding errors and me correcting them", "no automated editing at all". You violated that, you caused serious errors while doing it, so no, I am no longer intersted in "but I cleaned up afterwards", we are long past that stage now. Fram (talk) 20:58, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@Rich Farmbrough 2: concerning your defense of the actual edit: it was a systematic edit: everytime you encountered a "strange" entry in the pdfs, your script screwed up. Whether it was subentries, entries with an empty last column, entries with incorrect numbering in the original: your errors can be directly traced back to how the source looked. It had nothing to do with "empty csvs" or any other manual manipulation on your side, no matter what you claim. You used a script, and didn't check this. You claim to have worked very hard on this, but even a cursory check would have shown these problems. But, as usual, why would you do a manual check when you can have scripts do the work for you? Fram (talk) 20:58, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@Kumioko, regarding his errors and the fixes: "Many of the ones he didn't was because he was prevented from doing so because of this sanction or the long discussions which distracted much of his time." Bullshit. He made these errors, corrected his script halfway through, and continued to run the improved script without even bothering to go back and correct the old ones. I corrected them two months later manually, nothing prevented him from doing the same. I have noted some errors he made after the Arbcom case, he corrected one, I corrected the other, he has since made the exact same error at least five times more (probably "manually", right...). Despite the claims always made, no one else cleans those, not Rich Farmbrough, not one of his defenders. He just cntinues doing what he always did, only more sneaky and (thankfully) more slowly, but I fail to see any improvement, any reason to believe his fanciful explanations, or any reason to have any more patience with this (or with your wilder and wilder tales you spread about me). He has restrictions, he doesn't care to follow them, then I don't care about the consequences for him. The consequences for Misplaced Pages are minimal though, only a few people actually notice that these thousands of edits are no longer made, and even fewer miss them. Fram (talk) 20:58, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Rich Farmbrough

Statement by Rich Farmbrough

This is a huge table that has taken a month to prepare, and as well as being part of a significant article in it's own right, is important for defusing conflict, as can be seen on the talk page. The data used was prepared off-line on a spreadsheet, and cut and pasted into the article. Because I wanted the data sorted (though the table provides this functionality) and certain parts were not in the order I wanted I used the spreadsheet's sort function - which did not sort exactly as wanted. There were also a few minor formatting issues relating to empty columns. These issues were fairly easy to fix, taking about two or three hours compared with the considerable effort to build the table. Note that I described the table on the talk page as a "first cut", the sources being in conflicting formats, and the exact use of the data also under discussion.

While using a spreadsheet may contravene the letter of the arbcom ruling, I think that the encyclopaedia benefits from this article, at least until it can be decided whether it should be split into sub-articles. (I would have created sub articles in the first place, but need consensus to emerge before I do that.) OBCs are a topic of vital interest to India and her 350 million English users, and we have never had a good coverage of the basic information before.

@Sir Fozzie: yes, so I cant move one sentence after the next. I can't paste in the details of a citation. I can't pretty much do anything - including following the process for requesting an amendment or clarification. Effectively I am blocked from editing, except that no one thinks that the sanction is important enough to implement. Well almost no one. Well I have hardly edited since the initial sanctions, so they have been successful, I guess, in saving the encyclopaedia from some possible improvement. And indeed I was blocked for a month for correcting two spelling errors, which is a triumph for process over product.

@CBM, on the contrary, Fram is damaging the encyclopaedia by being confrontational instead of cooperative. And indeed you misread Kumioko's comment, it is the behaviour of those who think that "tattling" is a valid strategy to reach their goals that is in question. Similarly those who edit war to their own ends should also be careful where they cast aspersions.

@Killer Chihuahua, not having kept every version of the spreadsheets since on or before 15 December I can't definitively track this down, but it seems to be related to saving some almost empty lines as CSV, before I finished the Andra Pradesh section, the same issue occurred with about five states - had it been a systematic error it would have been with all the states or none, there is nothing I can see that makes those five states special. Presumably the reimport parameters munged them. Anyway it's an easy fix.

I am however a little puzzled, Fram comments "I am not discussing the cleanup you did after I found the problems and raised the issue here. I am discussing your initial edit only." Yet at the Arbitration case, he played a different tune saying "No one expects error-free editing, such a thing isn't possible. " and that the problem was that "he expects other people to clean up his problems." - a claim he has made for years, yet when asked "Do you think there are known errors on the English Misplaced Pages created by me, that I have not yet fixed? If so please list them for future reference, with approximate dates." he not only refused to answer but edit warred to remove the section I had created for him to answer, concealing his lack of cooperation.

@Sandstein Whether there is a technical breach or not, you are not required to block, no administrator is required to do perform any act. You may block me for a year if you choose to do so, and if you think that it is the right thing to do, you should do it. Nonetheless you can be sure that many will question the utility of such an action, and not without cause. It is fairly evident that this edit has not caused any problems, and indeed it is just for such cases of frivolous abuse of process that WP:IAR can be used.

Comments by SirFozzie

As one of the people who voted on the restriction, I'm likely too involved to adjucate fairly, but I'd just like to point out for the record that part of his restrictions include the following line:

to make only completely manual edits (ie by selecting the button and typing changes into the editing window);

which is confirmed in the section "The Way Forward.." here. SirFozzie (talk) 09:26, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Kumioko

I also admit I am a bit involved and I have been a vocal critic of this case. I think this complaint is a waste of time. We are looking for reasons to ban Rich plain and simple. Lets look for reasons to keep him editing. The pedia has been punished enough with his banishment I for one am glad to see he is at least editing and didn't just give up on the communities bullshit and walk away completely. I think Fram is too involved and needs to step away, even if that means though enforcement on the part of Arbcom. I'm tired of Fram being the only one to be the tattle tale in these cases and bad judgement calls like submitting hundreds of WikiProject categories for speedy deletion. These things are happening frequently and its time someone told Fram to knock it off rather than encourage his destructive behavior. If Rich's editing is that much of a problem someone else can and will bring it up.Kumioko (talk) 11:43, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@CBM. First let me apologize upfront. This is not going to be very nice, but it needs to be said. Next I want to clarify something. These edits were to a rather obscure topic and there is absolutely no way that Fram just stumbled onto it. He would have had to follow Rich's edits in order to see this. Additionally, Rich was actively working on the list at the time of the complaint and said that on the talk page. When Fram brought up the errors in the article Rich quickly went and fixed them. So your absolutely right, this isn't a playground and as far as I know we are all adults so it is truly bizarre and unfortunate when members of our community stoop to the childish behavior of being a tattle tail. But that is precisely what is occurring here. To tell you the truth there is another annoying childhood social characteristic at play here too and you know what that is? Bullying! I realize that you and Fram have struggled with the notion that Rich's edits are wanted, but some of us believe they are and occassional errors aside the pedia is suffering at the loss. Tens of thousands of edits aren't being made every single month since this sanction was put in place. Not many, not hundreds, not even thousands, Tens of thousands! So for what amounts to less than a 1% error rate we sanctioned a highly skilled and productive editor and administrator to not use automation and stripped their admin rights. Its sad and it makes me shake my head. Rich has mostly followed that. He is not using AWB, he is not using twinkle, scripts or bots. He admitted to using Excel. So now, we are here because a user who is not allowed to use "automation" used excel to sort a table, then another user who is heavily involved ran and told on him to the Arbcom. Petty, really really petty. I also take exception to the argument that Fram is just trying to protect the pedia from damage. I do not assume to know what motives Fram has. But from my perspective damage to the pedia is not among them. Damage to the pedia was already done with this sanction. Far more than could ever be produced from Rich's use of Excel. The damage was done by you and Fram and Arbcom's knee jerk decision to sanction him. So that damage has already been done by you and Fram. Additional damage is done in your continued attacks on members of the community and the stalking of edits, bullying and tattling about petty issues that frankly do not mean anything to anyone...except the 2 of you. Now I haev been here for a long, long time, longer even than you CBM and I know from expereince and from the 400, 000+ edits I haev done that our community of Wikipedians has no problem whatsoever in complaining about problems. So if Rich's edits really were that much of a problem, why is it that you and Fram are always the ones who are there to complain? I am going to stop short of stating why I think this is however I find this activity and conduct both suspect and disappoining of 2 members of the community who are admins and who are supposed to be, trusted. I do not trust either of you (Just to clarify I am quite ok with knowing that neither of you trusts me either). Kumioko (talk) 15:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@Leaky Cauldron. You are correct Fram is familiar with the case but so am I and so are several other members of the community. I can tell you though as I mentioned above that there are quite a few members of the community (a lot really) who do not really care about popularity. They have absolutely no problems telling when someone has, and excuse the metaphore, F'ed up. So to say that people aren't stepping up because they don't wish to seem unpopular isn't exactly true. Its more like most either don't agree with the sanctions in the first place or they don't find that this is a violation or worth the time. I also frankly think that Fram's actions need to be seriously reviewed by the Arbcom (possibly CBM's as well). Kumioko (talk) 15:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@Fram, I'm not going to play the he said she said game with you. Yes there were errors, Rich fixed some and some he didn't. Many of the ones he didn't was because he was prevented from doing so because of this sanction or the long discussions which distracted much of his time. I also want to clarify that some of the "errors" you point to were not errors, they were a difference of opinion about how things should be and what constituted a minor edit. It could be argued (and it has been ad nauseum) that some are not needed. I think personally even minor edits incrementally improve the articles, you and CBM do not and will forcably argue, block and prevent any editors from doing these things that are against your personal beleifs regardless of how petty and stupid the argument is. Some have had merit, many did not. The bottom line is in this particular discussion though is that Excel is not automation. Excel is an application yes, but not automation. If Excel is included as automation then so is using the computer to access Misplaced Pages, so is using an internet browser to access Misplaced Pages, so is using the 4 tildes to sign his signature (better to make him type the whole thing out right, and then accuse him of errors because the UTC is wrong), or use the Wiki software to send him an Email and then go to arbcom and say he's using automation because that doesn't fall under the criteria of "Clicking the edit" link. This whole submission of Rich violation his automationo ban is absurd and should be treated as such! Kumioko (talk) 15:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@CBM, the diffs you gave do not show anything. They do not show Rich used automation. They show he made edits. More petty diffs to try and get him banned from the site. Kumioko (talk) 16:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@Sandstein. A one year block is completely absurd! I am not an administrator but as a longterm editor I find your interest in blocking Rich for a year over this pettyness excessive. I highly recommend giving more time for comments or I will be forced to reopen a case appealing it wasting even more of everyones time. Kumioko (talk) 20:51, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@Fram, your really a piece of work dude you know that. You have spent more time in arbitration discussions to burn other editors than some of the arbitrators have. I find it shocking that you have the gall to complain about Rich's problems when you create unreferenced biographical articles like this, this and others. You submit more than 300 WikiProject categories for deletion showing you don't understand the purpose of WikiProject categorization and then go on to create a discussion here to delete the majority of the A-Class quality assessments because they are empty. And that's only in the last week, and you have the gall to call Rich a bad editor because he made mistakes on his edits. Part of the reason Rich made some of those mistakes is because he did so many edits. If he did 20 edits no one would care, but because he and his bots did something like 4 million edits, some mistakes are going to occur. But instead you use the Arbcom to get editors you don't like banned by rummaging through their edits to find something that can be used against them and then say that you don't care what happens to them. You should have the admin tools taken away and you should get blocked for a month just for continuing to waste Arbcom's time. But instead they'll block Rich for a year or permanently and they'll give you a pat on the back and an attaboy and see you back here in a week. But I see through your petty shallow games. Eventually they'll catch on too. Also, you are not the only one that was fixing edits, I fixed plenty too. I have about 4 times the number of edits you do and I fixed mistakes from Rich and his bots too. But I never for a second thought he should be blocked from editing, stripped of his admin rights and banned from the pedia. I am so pissed and disgusted with this place, process and you that I don't even care if I get blocked for telling you what a piece of trash you are. Its editors like you that will destroy this project. Kumioko (talk) 00:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

@ the Admins trying to justify a one year block. We are not a bunch of mindless Zombies and we can make the decision to block or not to block based on the merits of the case. We also have the ability to decide ow long that block should be if necessary at all. Not on trying to interpret a badly worded and badly decided Arbcom case. Its no secret I have thought the case was bad from the beginning and its no secret I have voiced my concerns with the Arbcom in general. But that doesn't matter here and I am not trying to retry this case. What I am trying to say is that determining the use of excel as automation is stupid and we should not treat it as such. If Arbcom wants to take action let them do it.

@Ken, I posted a request for additional comments in 2 places, the Village pump and AN because very few have this AE page on their watch list. Those that do, tend to lean towards the extreme end of the punishment spectrum. That was it and it was generically worded and I was prepared to accept whatever comments came out of that. So please do not imply that I was leaving messages all of the Wiki pleading for help because I was not doing that. Kumioko (talk) 13:23, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

• Note - I posted a request for additional comments to this discussion on AN and Village pump policy. Let's see if we can get more than 5 editors comments on this case. Most editors don't watch this page. Kumioko (talk) 00:33, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments by CBM

This is not a playground; the term "tattle" is bizarre in this context. On Misplaced Pages, Rich Farmbrough is treated as an adult and has responsibility for his edits. If he is not willing to abide by the restrictions, he should explicitly state so, and voluntarily stop editing. I think it would be better for the project if he remains and follows his restrictions. This is not the only violation I have seen in the past two weeks. Fram is limiting the damage that can be done to the encyclopedia by raising violations while they can still be fixed easily, rather than waiting for more severe problems to occur that might be more disruptive and less simple to resolve. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@KillerChihuahua: I needed a small amount of time to gather the links here. The relevant facts seem to be that Rich Farmbrough has stated above

The data used was prepared off-line on a speadsheet, and cut and pasted into the article. Because I wanted the data sorted (though the table provides this functionality) and certain parts were not in the order I wanted I used the spreadsheet's sort function - which did not sort exactly as wanted.

while his arbitration case includes a remedy

to avoid making automated edits to pages offline for the purpose of pasting them into a normal browser for posting;

Separately, the same motion has a remedy

to refrain from edits adjusting capitalisation of templates (where the current capitalisation is functional) or whitespace and similar as these can create the appearance of automation.

while Rich Farmbrough has recently made edits including which violate that arbitration remedy as well as his community editing restrictions. Rich Farmbrough has made at least 30 edits of this sort since the beginning of 2013.

I will have limited access to the internet beginning this afternoon, but I will make an effort to respond within 24 hours to any further questions posted by clerks.— Carl (CBM · talk) 16:04, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@Sandstein: FWIW I think one year is excessive. The last block was two weeks so one month woulld be a more reasonable progression in my opinion. Rich Farmbrough can in principle appeal the remedies again in six months, so a block longer than that would be less useful. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Leaky caldron

Not for the first time, Fram's motives are being called into question. He is familiar with the (many) background cases, knowledgeable in the technicalities of the possible infraction and willing to bring matters to attention when others might not wish to appear unpopular. Fram's motives are not subject to Arbcom enforcement - let's leave the personality out of it. Leaky Caldron 13:16, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Orlady

Although his edits to List of Other Backward Classes appear to violate the letter of Rich Farmbrough's restriction, I don't see them as violating the intent of that restriction because they were focused on a single article page, rather than the automated edits to many pages that I understand to have been the focus of the Arbcom case. Furthermore, I am grateful that Rich Farmbrough has taken up the editing of this particular list-article. This list is inherently problematic, as it relates to the very touchy subject of caste in India. The list was severely incomplete before he started editing it. Also, due to a combination of India's multiple languages, transliteration quirks, and definitional questions, there apparently can be complex issues in determining whether a wikilinks to an article about a specific group actually points to the right group. I opened an AfD in which I proposed that the article (which at the time was far more deficient) be userfied until various deficiencies had been addressed. The community in its infinite wisdom decided to keep that page in article space based on a promise of fixing the issues, but shortly after that, the creator of the page got topic-restricted from the topic of Indian caste, so it wasn't obvious that the fixes were going to happen. Rich Farmbrough's edits have resulted in an enormous improvement to the page; if there are errors in his work due to the way he used automated tools, I have confidence that he will endeavor to correct those errors. If there is still concern about the current condition of that page, I suggest that he be allowed to move it to user space and work on it there (including automated editing) until all glitches have been cleared up. (And when he's done, there are similar needs regarding List of Scheduled Castes that he might be able to address in a similar fashion.) Accordingly, I suggest that this particular "violation" should be ignored/excused. --Orlady (talk) 17:17, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@Sandstein: In view of the fact that these edits are helping to resolve a problem, not create one, a block is not helpful, and a one-year block is seriously excessive. --Orlady (talk) 21:00, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Nick-D

Given that ArbCom has voted to implement very explicit 'bright line'-type restrictions here, Fram has demonstrated what appears to be a breach of the restriction against automation and Rich has admitted violating the restriction on offline editing (despite a previous sanction), Sandstein's analysis and proposed action looks (somewhat regretfully) appropriate to me, especially as Rich has been pushing against his restrictions for the last few months so he's obviously (or at least should be) well aware of their content and how they work in practice and I don't think that this breach should be considered accidental. Nick-D (talk) 01:06, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment by RolandR

I have no involvement in this matter, have never come across this before, and am ignorant of the background. Irrespective of that, I am simply astonished by the suggestion that using Excel offline is equivalent to automation. You might just as well argue that use of a spell-checker is forbidden, since that automatically replaces text and the editor will not have entered everything manually. RolandR (talk) 02:20, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Arthur Rubin

I do have previous involvement with Rich, in that he appeared to have had damgaed some templates I was trying to clarify. However, I think Sandstein may be misinterpreting ArbComm, and I think one year is excessive. If, hypothetically, a clearer, if more restrictive, sanction on Rich could be crafted, that, together with a one month block, would be reasonable. If not, probably a two to three month block. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:33, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Irate comment by Wnt

You are saying that Rich Framborough is required "to make only completely manual edits (ie by selecting the button and typing changes into the editing window);" Does that mean that if he wants to add the URL for a reference, he has to type it in by hand? To quote text, he has to retype it? No. I would agree with RolandR, Arthur Rubin, etc. that this is absurd. I say opening an edit window and pressing control-V is a "completely manual edit" - that is, provided he is allowed to use a computer to make it! I've never run a bot, but I've used Excel to make edits in the past (just about any table for example) - and I never thought about reading the bot policy before doing so. Wnt (talk) 04:34, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment by calm and composed Beyond My Ken

I believe several of the commenters above -- most probably attracted here by Kumioko's advertising this action in several forums in order to assist Rich Farmbrough -- have missed the point. If Rich had not been sanctioned in the manner indicated by ArbCom, the alternative would have been a full site ban. In that respect, ArbCom was remarkably lenient, in allowing him to continue to edit the site in exactly the way that hundred of editors -- such as myself -- do, by typing their edits into the edit box by hand. (The suggestion that the ArbCom sanction prohibited him from cutting-and-pasting a URL is ridiculous, a classic example of reductio ad absurdum, but not relevant in the real world.) That despite this extraordinary leniency, Rich has edited in a manner that is plainly a violation of those restrictions is a very strong indication that he is incapable of doing so. Rich is not unintelligent, so it can't be that he didn't understand the plain language of the sanction, it must be, instead, that he is incapable of controlling himself.

Given that clear and obvious meaning of the sanction, and given the admitted breaking of it by Rich, the admins here at AE really have no choice but to impose the block that ArbCom called for. If Rich believes this is unfair, or inappropriately imposed, he can file for an amendment with the Committee, although he would do so at some risk, because it is likely, in my opinion, that the committee would void the current sanction, and impose the full site-ban that they held off imposing at the time of the original case, since Rich has amply demonstrated that he is incapable of following the instructions of the committee. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:27, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

@Colonel Warden: The opinions of other editors about the edit involved are irrelevant. The only criteria which is pertinent to this situation is the sanction imposed by ArbCom. If you have a diff which shows that ArbCom was OK with an automated edit by Rich as long as it was "positive" or "beneficial" or "approved by other editors" you should cite it -- but you cannot, because no such loophole exists. The sanction imposed was clear and absolute -- no non-manual edits. Given that, your comment below is completely irrelevant to this discussion, especially considering that the entire point of having an Arbitration Committee is to be the the last resort and final determiner. You (and others above) appear to want to re-litigate the case and second-guess ArbCom's decision. That's not what AE is for. If you want a re-consideration, file for an Amendment, although it is likely you'll be turned down. Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:22, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Colonel Warden

The edit which is complained of here was well-advertised in advance on the article's talk page by this post on 15 Dec 2012. The method of working was indicated by reference to "1200 rows". The article was, at that time at AFD where this activity was approvingly reported by another editor who is familiar with the chore of working upon this topic: "It looks like Rich Farmbrough is trying to do this either off-wiki or at least not in mainspace. Way to go...". The AFD was closed by an administrator as "KEEP with a promise of FIXING the issues noted". As the list was then a short stub, it seems reasonable to suppose that significant expansion was what was promised. The original author of the list was forbidden to work upon the topic area and so the involved editors seem to have left it to Rich to labour away. After a month's work, the additional material which had been prepared offsite was then added to the article in the edit in question. The size of this material (350K) was such that copy typing by hand would have been absurdly inefficient and likely to introduce significant error due to typing mistakes. Cut/paste is clearly the only sensible way of doing this.

The edit which introduced this material was again well-advertised upon the article's talk page and described as a "First cut" and so, by implication, inviting review. The edit was soon reviewed by another editor and they praised it about 5 hours later: "Glad to see this progress. The list is comprehensive and thoroughly sourced. Thanks for all your work, Rich Farmbrough!". This then seems to have been delivering upon the promise.

The work done in this case seems to have been significant and the way in which it was done was commendably open and supported by consensus. If an involved editor did not care for the large addition then it would have been easy to revert because its nature was clear and well explained. If, by contrast, the material had been added as a myriad small edits then it would have been more difficult to understand and manage this major addition.

To block Rich for this action would be perverse - overzealous enforcement which we might liken to Javert, as one topical example. A better remedy would be to give Rich some means of formally registering his plans to make such a bold edit somewhere so that technical objections can be raised beforehand, rather than afterwards.Warden (talk) 09:46, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: The issue here is to understand what has happened and to decide what reaction, if any, is appropriate. The edit which has been made seems to be a done deal. Blocks are supposed to be preventative rather than punishment. What is now to be prevented? My proposition is that Rich record his plans in some formal manner so that objections can be raised before significant effort is invested rather than afterwards. Warden (talk) 10:49, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment by LindsayH

I was aware of the restrictions on Rich Farmbrough, and of the antagonism between him and certain other editors; i have no desire to comment on that, nor on anything except to express astonishment, as some other Comment-makers have, at the implication that using a programme off-line to mould an edit could be called automation. I have used OpenOffice to search for and replace multiple errors in some articles; does that mean i ought to have got permission to use a bot? I think that someone might be leaning over backwards to find Rich out of compliance with his restrictions. Cheers, Lindsay 10:21, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Andy Mabbett

The ridiculousness of this proposal and its tissue-thin justification beggars belief. Try to imagine how it would be reported to outsiders. Close with no sanction, ASAP. Also, what LindsayH said. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:51, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment by EdChem

1. Then-Arbitrator Elen of the Roads commented at the AfD shortly after the comment indicating Rich F's intentions and was advised of the 1200 rows. Though it's not definitive proof, certainly nothing in her comments suggests she saw any potential violation of ArbCom sanctions as being proposed.
2. I find Sandstein's analysis deeply troubling, for the following reason: An issue that came up last year was ArbCom potentially substituting their own views for the discretion provided to administrators at AE. As I recall, one new arbitrator was elected partly to help bring greater appreciation of the views of AE admins on their discretion to ArbCom. Yet, Sandstein's analysis argues that AE admins have no discretion in this case. He argues that the enforcement provision ("may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year") means that a two week block must be followed by a block over a month in length, and in this case by a one year block . Yet, nothing in this provision mandates that a second block must be anything other than "increased". Sandstein's argument rests on the ArbCom statement that "If Rich Farmbrough breaches the automation prohibition again, notwithstanding the standard enforcement provisions, he will likely be site-banned indefinitely with at least twelve months elapsing from the date of the site-ban before he may request the Committee reconsider." However, this statement describes what ArbCom would likely do, it certainly does not mandate that AE admins lack discretion to use their good judgment and must jump from two weeks to a year for block length. I voted in the election in favour of AE admins discretion being respected (within reason), but if Sandstein's analysis is followed then I would argue that AE admins have failed to exercise discretion or judgment and ArbCom should step in because the AE page has failed to act appropriately.
3. These comments are made in the context of recognising that the idea that using Excel is prohibited automation is ridiculous. I recognise SirFozzie has quoted the "typing" restriction but the literal interpretation of that is that including a cut-and-paste URL for a reference, or a word processed spell check, or a direct quote from a source, are all prohibited. I contend that sensible judgment requires interpretation of the restriction reasonably rather than literally because the reasonable (and arguably literal) interpretation of automation does not cover the introduction of a single large table to a single page. The way in which the edit was made, with approval for improvement at AfD and with notification at the talk page, to me provided ample opportunity for objections to be raised and also showed a collegial and collaborative approach by Rich F.
4. As an entirely uninvolved editor, I conclude that a block would be punitive and a year-long block would be over-reaction on a grand scale. AE consensus is supposed to be formed amongst uninvolved editors, not just admins, and it is clear to me that consensus for sanctions is lacking at this time.

EdChem (talk) 12:46, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Result concerning Rich Farmbrough

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Waiting to hear Rich's response regarding the question of the repeated "Andhra Pradesh " entries. Also note to Leaky Caldron: Please read the big pink box at the top, and you will find that motives are indeed subject to AE: vexatious requests can be sanctioned, even on a first offense. I am not stating that this is the case in this instance; merely correcting your misunderstanding about whether motives are subject to AE. KillerChihuahua 13:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
• Rich Farmbrough writes about the edit at issue that "the data used was prepared off-line on a speadsheet, and cut and pasted into the article." The Arbitration Committee's restriction concerning his editing, as modified by the motion of 6 June 2012, provides that "Rich Farmbrough is directed ... to make only completely manual edits (ie by selecting the button and typing changes into the editing window)". It is therefore established that Rich Farmbrough has violated the restriction at issue.

  This requires us to consider what sanction is appropriate. The enforcement provision directs that he "may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year". The initial block of (up to) one month was already made by the Committee pursuant to the abovementioned motion of 6 June 2012. Consequently, we must now consider a block ranging between one month and one year in duration. In determining the appropriate block duration, we must consider that clause C(iv) of the motion of 6 June 2012 provides that "If Rich Farmbrough breaches the automation prohibition again, notwithstanding the standard enforcement provisions, he will likely be site-banned indefinitely with at least twelve months elapsing from the date of the site-ban before he may request the Committee reconsider." This indicates that the Committee was of the opinion that the appropriate sanction for any subsequent violation of the sanction at issue is at least one year of no editing. It follows that the appropriate duration of the enforcement block we must now make is the maximum permitted, i.e., one year. This is of course without prejudice to any site ban, as discussed in the same clause of the abovementioned motion, that the Committee may also decide to impose. But the wording of that clause does not delegate the authority to impose such a site ban to administrators.

  For these reasons, if there are no objections by other administrators, I intend to close this enforcement request with a one-year block.

  The various comments arguing that the decision that is to be enforced is wrong are beside the point: This is not the place to discuss the merits of arbitral decisions. The place to do so would be an amendment request, or the Committee's talk page.  Sandstein  20:33, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• Several people argue that the sanction should not be enforced, or at any rate not with a lengthy block, because the edit was harmless or beneficial. That may well be so. However, in the context of enforcement, all that matters is that edits of this specific type by this specific editor have been determined by the body with the authority to do so – the Arbitration Committee – to be detrimental. That's the point of any ban on Misplaced Pages: it forbids all edits (or all of a certain type), no matter what the merits of any individual edit are – see WP:BAN. And I trust the collective judgment of the Arbitration Committee in determining the scope of bans like this... well, certainly not blindly, but much more than that of any individual editor who shows up here. So, please address any objections against the scope of the ban, or against the length of the sanctions contemplated, to the Committee members who wrote that ban.  Sandstein  23:18, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• To those commenting on the fairness (or lack thereof) of any sanctions imposed: That's not up to us here. AE determines if ArbCom sanctions have or have not been breached, and if they have, what remedies to apply. That's it. ArbCom has the benefit of evidence from any user who wants to submit it and weeks worth of deliberation to craft appropriate remedies, and we're not going to unilaterally overturn them on the basis of a shouting match on this thread. If you think they did their job poorly, go take it up with them, as they're the only ones who can reverse or amend it (aside, nominally, from Jimbo or the WMF, but that's happened rarely in the case of Jimbo and to my knowledge never in the case of WMF).
• That being said: Today, the sanction is in place. It is quite clear: "To avoid future breaches of whatever nature, Rich Farmbrough is directed:...to avoid making automated edits to pages offline for the purpose of pasting them into a normal browser for posting; to make only completely manual edits (ie by selecting the button and typing changes into the editing window)....If Rich Farmbrough breaches the automation prohibition again, notwithstanding the standard enforcement provisions, he will likely be site-banned indefinitely with at least twelve months elapsing from the date of the site-ban before he may request the Committee reconsider....By adopting this motion, the Committee is extending considerable good faith to Rich Farmbrough, despite the aggravating factors, and notes he has unconditionally accepted provisions to this effect." Rich has clearly stated that in this case his edit was not manual, and was instead prepared offline with the use of automated spreadsheet functions for the purpose of pasting in. This is a clear violation of very unequivocal restrictions after being offered an absolute last chance. Further, Rich did not have to use a spreadsheet here, even if the edit was complex, as there was no restriction placed on the use of a userspace sandbox to prepare a complex edit. I therefore have to concur with Sandstein's analysis. Seraphimblade 01:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
  • It seems we have reasonable disagreement here as to whether the edits in question violated the restriction. As such, I would suggest that we request clarification from ArbCom as to whether these edits violate the ban. Unless there's well-founded objection or someone else does it first, I'll file the request tomorrow. Seraphimblade 06:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• This is the definition of automation as provided in the arbcom decision:

An automation tool is a technology designed to facilitate making multiple similar edits that would be unduly time-consuming or tedious for a human editor to perform manually. Common automation tools include bots (independently running processes that modify Misplaced Pages content in a fully or partially automated fashion), scripts (software components utilized to automate or semi-automate certain types of editing), and various other technologies.

The phrase key, which is the essence of the word "automation", is "to facilitate making multiple similar edits". It is also clear from that case that abuse of bots and similar tools is what Rich was sanctioned for. It is very surprising to see once-off use of Excel to make a single table being judged to be a similar violation. Of course Excel could be used to automate a process of making multiple similar edits but has he not been accused of doing that. I conclude that he did not violate his ban on using automation tools. So it comes down to the clause "to make only completely manual edits (ie by selecting the button and typing changes into the editing window)". When I click EDIT and then copy-paste a few sentences from an article I have open in another window, say to add a quotation, is that not a "completely manual" edit? Maybe, maybe not; surely a reasonable person could understand it either way. Why is the paste key less manual than the shift key? At the very least, we should consider that maybe Rich made a good-faith reasonable interpretation of his sanction even if we think his interpretation was wrong. I am in favor of closing this with a clear statement as to whether what he did is a violation or not. Zero 03:54, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Ordinarily I would agree that copy-pasting text into the edit window could be interpreted to constitute manual (as opposed to automated) editing. But in this case the decision expressly allows only "typing changes into the editing window". "Typing" means entering characters one by one on the keyboard; an interpretation confirmed by the clause's description of such edits having to be "completely" manual. This particular restriction may initially appear arbitrary or meaningless, but in the context of the case it appears to be meant to prevent Rich Farmbrough from preparing automated edits outside of Misplaced Pages and then copy-pasting them into Misplaced Pages. It is therefore not so meaningless or nonsensical as to be unenforceable. Also considering that the sanction was imposed only in lieu of a full site ban, I don't think that the Committee meant to make allowances for "good-faith interpretations" of the sanction, particularly not in cases (such as this one) where such interpretations conflict with the clear wording of the sanction. I would therefore maintain what I said above that Rich Farmbrough has violated the sanction and should be blocked.  Sandstein  08:08, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

• It is nice to have help on this case, unlike the last one. My views: Excel falls under the "other technologies" listed. However, cut-and-paste within the edit window, to order words or sentences; or copy-paste of strings difficult to type accurately, for urls for references, is often considered part of "typing" just like the back-space key is - and it is not the same as writing something offline for loading to Misplaced Pages via a copy-paste into the edit window. This may at some point need clarification from ArbCom, but RF has transgressed with the use of the Excel spreadsheet for sorting, then copy-pasting into a Misplaced Pages edit window, which to me counts as writing something offline for copying into Misplaced Pages, so I don't see a need to bother ArbCom at this time. It violates that restriction as would Textpad or Notepad or any other offline editor. I'm concerned that RF was given an apparent green light as in the evidence presented by Col. Warden; however, one could argue that it is up to RF to remember what his sanctions are and abide by them. I think there has been an error made here, but disagree it rises to the level of needing a one year block. If I'm wrong, and there are further violations, we can always re-block again and for longer. But from one month to one year is a very harsh escalation, not warranted by what appears to be confusion (well documented in the arguments above) about what the ban entails. If there is a next time, then we can point to this case and say, It was made clear. I suggest a block of two months. KillerChihuahua 12:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
  • • There is no ban on "writing something offline for copying into Misplaced Pages". Sorry, it just doesn't say that. Zero 14:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
  • And a note to those arguing that RF is an asset, and the level of error was too small to justify sanctions, etc: This is not Arbitration Appeal. This is Arbitration Enforcement. Please don't try to re-argue the case here; it just takes up screenspace and makes the admins here cranky. The only valid argument against sanctions here is "s/he didn't violate the terms set by Arbcom." Puppy has spoken. KillerChihuahua 13:02, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I'm OK with a two-month block too, on the basis that this doesn't prevent the Committee from imposing the one-year ban they contemplated in the sanction. As a general recommendation to the Committee, based on the non-admin discussion above, it seems that it might have been better to completely ban Rich Farmbrough to begin with (if indeed his conduct at the time was demed that problematic), rather than crafting (perhaps necessarily) complicated restrictions that provide ample opportunity for wiki-lawyering and re-arguing the case every time they are to be enforced.  Sandstein  14:04, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• I still disagree. Excel does not fit the definition of an automation tool unless it is configured "to facilitate making multiple similar edits", which it wasn't. I don't agree that the restriction on off-line automation would be meaningless if it doesn't apply here. I think it makes perfect sense. Rich got into trouble for abuse of bots and the like. The plain meaning is that he must not circumvent the ban by copying a page to another place, applying his bots to them, and copying the result back. That's why it says "automated edits to pages offline" and it doesn't say anything about preparing new material offline. I still think a reasonable person could consider what Rich did to be within the terms of the sanctions. Zero 14:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)