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	No objections were registered. I am going to delete the personal category ''religion'' from the infobox. ] (]) 14:30, 23 January 2013 (UTC)		No objections were registered. I am going to delete the personal category ''religion'' from the infobox. ] (]) 14:30, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
			: Mustafa Kemal has never been a muslim, there is no sources, he did never go in a mosquee, he is a free-masson, that's all folk! We can say and admit he was a deist --] (]) 20:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

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Role (or lack thereof) in genocides

Given that Atatürk was a prominent leader during World War I and afterwards, when three parallel mass killings (Greek, Armenian, and Assyrian) were concurrently taking place, it should really be mentioned in this article whether Atatürk was involved in these at all (or what his response was, at the least.) I realize that this would presumably be a controversial subject for Turkish editors, but even so, Turkey at least acknowledges that the killings took place (which they excuse with the claim of military necessity), and it is a legitimate question that should be answered nevertheless. 02:46, 14 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.243.198 (talk)

You confuse the self-defense with genocide. Atatürk had never hold Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians in camps and kill them defenceless. Their armies attack the Turks and they fought back. If you have any proof about this I would congratulate you. Atatürk wasn't a dictator like Mussolini; Hittler or Saddam why? Because people still can cry in him memorial day with love and thank him to save them in Turkey.--Kerenia (talk) 00:14, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

This is *bs*. This guy ordered the execution of Hellenic and Armenian civilians. Over half a million people died because of him. Sure we was a small pre-Hitler after all... 188.77.175.138 (talk) 02:13, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Can I draw your attention to what Misplaced Pages says about talk pages: "This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject." If you have a proposal for improving the article, then give it (with appropriate evidence). Otherwise, choose a different place to argue.Solri (talk) 06:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

half a million people died because of him?? what did greeks do in izmir? after they went to greece, izmir was destroyed by greek army. he defended his land. he killed many people such as greek and armenians haha that's very funny. he had done 'turkish independince war' so he discarded turkish land from you.

As I said above, this page is for discussing and improving the article. If anyone has historical evidence warranting inclusion of mass killings in the article, cite it here; there is no point is an "Oh yes he did" "Oh no he didn't" argument. Solri (talk) 10:18, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Add request: link to Republic Day (Turkey)

Per section #Establishment_of_the_Republic_of_Turkey, please add a link to Republic Day (Turkey)

67.141.28.172 (talk) 02:59, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I've mentioned it in this section and included a link. Solri (talk) 18:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

The name Atatürk

Nowhere does the article explain the status of the name/title/label "Atatürk". The evolution of his name from simple Mustafa is explained, and then seamlessly goes from calling him Mustafa Kemal Bey to Mustafa Kemal Pasha, which is a understandable with a little research (though a link to a wiki page explaining the use of these titles would be useful). Mustafa Kemal Atatürk—and simply Atatürk—appears spread throughout the article. Where does "Atatürk" come from? 150.203.35.193 (talk) 03:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the info Janus. 150.203.35.193 (talk) 04:00, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I suggest we make the naming more consistent by referring to Atatürk as "Mustafa Kemal" up to the point where he was given his surname, and as "Atatürk" thereafter. Some sections simply refer to him as "Kemal", which is confusing, especially since in Turkey he is frequently referred to as "Mustafa Kemal" but never as just "Kemal". I will amend this soon unless there are any objections. Solri (talk) 23:24, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I've tried to make the naming a bit more consistent in the first parts of the article, starting "Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was born" but then calling him plain "Mustafa" until he acquires the name Kemal, after which he is referred to as "Mustafa Kemal" at least until the 1930s. I've got rid of all instances of plain "Kemal". Solri (talk) 15:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Ataturk is not a muslim

In his last speech, he says "our party program is not in compliance with the dogmas of the books which are believed to came from the sky" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi04uFpdfPw the video is in Turkish. please correct or remove the religion on the right panel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ugurcode (talk • contribs) 15:09, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

There is not enough here to support the idea that Atatürk was not a Muslim, nor that the speech was taken by members of parliament to mean that. What he is saying here is that the principles of the CHP are empirically based ("doğrudan doğruya hayattan almış") rather than being religious dogma, but he does not explicitly reject religion. This is in keeping with his general stance of opposing superstition or any religious teachings contrary to science while avoiding opposition to religion as such. Solri (talk) 23:44, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

on another note; why does the page link to free masons as if to imply he was a freemason? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.36.245.40 (talk) 01:42, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Because he was? Fat&Happy (talk) 02:04, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Nothing but a fringe speculation. I will take the liberty to remove them. --Mttll (talk) 04:26, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Atatürk was a Muslim but before Atatürk. Kuran was only book of sembol and people were hanging some pages over on walls, nobody undertand because of Arabic language. With his reforms he helped Kuran translated the Turkish. That helps most people understand what its origin what it means. He had never perevented any religious activity for any religion. He only closed old relgious school "TEKKE" because they were bastardized. He opened The Presidency of Religious Affairs instead of "Tekke"s to give healthy religios information to public. There is no historical record he was free mason too. You found these things with your head and impose here. --Kerenia (talk) 00:27, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Personal life

I deleted the references to rumours of homosexuality from this section and moved the YouTube citation to the later section on insults. The two lines in the personal life section don't fit well (jumping from folk dancing to homosexuality in the same paragraph seems an odd transition). The YouTube citation fits better in the following section, and the earlier citation (http://www.anwaraidc.com/?p=2025) doesn't fit anywhere, being a mish-mash of copy-pasted sources which gives more space to his supposed Jewishness and even accuses him of membership of the Illuminati! I think even noting the rumours does not belong in this section unless someone can cite sources to show that they were circulating while Atatürk was alive; having spent some time trawling Google Scholar, I have not been able to find a single reference (though there are plenty of accusations of womanizing!). In general, I would say that speculations about the sexuality of a historical figure are only worth including when (a) there is substantial historical evidence to support them or (b) the speculations themselves are of historical import (as in rumours of Richard II's homosexuality); I don't see either of these in this case. Solri (talk) 10:21, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Atatürk wasn't homosexual. He married once with Latife Hanım and he had a relationship his far cousin Fikriye Hanım before. Becuase Attatürk left the Fikriye for marry to Latife. Fikriye got suicide. From his old letters later, it apperead he got secret relationships with many women. His marrige didn't work because he was giving too much time to goverment jobs than his marriage. He couldn't stand Latife Hanım's demands. --Kerenia (talk) 00:52, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I was wondering whether to add a mention of Fikriye and his reasons for divorcing Latife, but I think this might be better in the separate article on his personal life that is linked to from here. The other problem is that again it is rather speculative. Do you have any good sources we could use? Solri (talk) 10:34, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Because, look at the tittle "PERSONAL LIFE". I have some sources but it's Turkish. Some news papers like Hürriyet (Turkish newspaper) wrote things about his personal life before. There are some books write about his personal life too. Some movies and documentaries mentioned about his personal life too. Some of them partially. If you find sources from English only, your information is limited too. I gave you links I hope you could understand --Kerenia (talk) 19:37, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

http://atam.webnode.com/anasayfa/biografi/ataturk%E2%80%99un%20ozel%20hayat%C4%B1%20/ http://www.idefix.com/Kitap/tanim.asp?sid=HFL6OE8TU758X9DDPKKE&searchstring=Atat%FCrk%FCn%20Gizli%20A%FEk%FD%20Fikriye http://en.wikipedia.org/Mustafa_%28film%29

Thanks for the sources. I've expanded the section to include his relationships with Fikriye and Eleni, and added some details about his marriage to Latife. Solri (talk) 22:18, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Sunni Islam ?

User:Chauahuasachca claimed "stop nonsense". Do you prove it with identifying reliable sources ? I think religion in infobox is not necessary for this person. Takabeg (talk) 11:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

You are a disruptive user and looking at your contributions show that. No other reliable sources are needed. --E4024 (talk) 11:40, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why you feel so. But please cool off and read Misplaced Pages:No personal attack again (This is the last warning for you). Takabeg (talk) 12:13, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, he was Sunni Muslim.--Chauahuasachca (talk) 12:54, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Sources ? Takabeg (talk) 12:55, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

@User:E4024 Common knowledge. No need for a tag. is invalid argument. Please read Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources. Takabeg (talk) 13:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Why don't you try contributing positively to WP? If you believe your English is not sufficient, add pics to articles, for example. Help. --E4024 (talk) 13:14, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I think my English is not sufficient, because I'm not a native. But I believe that we have to stop POV-pushing (especially nationalists' POVs) edits. I couldn't find any sources to prove Atatürk's religion was Sunni Islam. But I easily found follows:

I think these are also nothing but claims. But at present Sunni Islam is nothing but one of the claims without sources. Takabeg (talk) 13:30, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

No sources for Sunni Islam were provided. Stop POV-pushing. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 15:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm puzzled by the religion tag. Is it meant to indicate a person's official religious affiliation or their personal views? In the former case it is definitely Islam; in the latter, nobody knows for sure. I've read speculations that he was a deist; I've also read speculations that he was a member of the Melami Sufi order. His adopted daughter, Sabiha Gökçen, said "Contrary to what everyone thought, he was a very religious person" (Reminiscences of Atatürk, trans. Ömer Renkliyıldırım. İstanbul: Metro, 1985. p. 29.) Solri (talk) 15:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the secular Turkish Republic said: "I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea..." The Antipodean Philosopher: Interviews on Philosophy in Australia and New Zealand, Graham Oppy, Lexington Books, 2011, ISBN 0739167936, p. 146. Jingiby (talk) 15:42, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Turkey was saved, and for the rest of his life Kemal ruled Turkey unopposed. From his position of absolute authority Ataturk set about dragging Turkey into the twentieth century. An atheist, he secularized the law, stripped Islam of its position as state religion and forbade religious instructions in schools. History of World War II, Marshall Cavendish Corporation, Marshall Cavendish, 2004, ISBN 0761474838, p. 128. Jingiby (talk) 15:47, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

The Assotiated Press reported on January 23, 1989 that editor-in chief Dogu Perincek had been convicted on December 20, 1988, of insulting Kemal Ataturk in an article entitled, "Ataturk and God," that appeared in the November 22-28, 1987 issue. The article consisted of handwritten notes and letters of Ataturk that showed his atheist views. Perincek was sentenced to one and a half year in prison. Paying the Price: Freedom of Expression in Turkey, A Helsinki Watch Report, Lois Whitman, Thomas Froncek, Helsinki Watch, Human Rights Watch, 1989, ISBN 0929692152, p. 34. Jingiby (talk) 16:03, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

And here's another quotation: "God is a great strength. We must all believe in Him" (again, the source is Sabiha Gökçen). And another: "Oh people, God is one and his glory is great. Our master and prophet was chosen by the Lord God as his servant and messenger. The basic principle, which is known to all of us, is the clearly understandable verses of the Holy Quran. Our religion, which enlightens people's souls, is the last religion. It is the most perfect religion, because our religion is completely compatible and in harmony with intelligence, logic and reality." That's my off the cuff translation (so don't quote it!) of a sermon he gave in the Pasha mosque in Balıkesir in 1923 . Of course you can say that deep down he was an atheist or a deist or a member of the Illumiati or whatever you want, but that's strictly POV. The evidence is overwhelming that he presented himself as a Muslim and was regarded as such. Solri (talk) 16:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Any neutral reliable source was provided in support of Sunny Islam view. The citations above are from extremely biased Turkish sources, the second one even religious. Jingiby (talk) 18:14, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

By the way Radio Islam, has broadcast an emission: Kemal Ataturk - The Enemy of Islam. Jingiby (talk) 18:23, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

This radio? Very reliable source really... Do you have friends in there? --E4024 (talk) 18:29, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I have not a friends there, but you haven't provided any sources here. Jingiby (talk) 18:47, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Atatürk, The Rebirth of a Nation, Lord Kinross, 1965, p. 437: For Kemal, Islam and civilization were a contradiction in terms. "If only," he once said of the Turks, with a flash of cynical insight, "we could make them Christians!" His was not to be the reformed Islamic state for which the Faithful were waiting: it was to be a strictly lay state, with a centralized Government as strong as the Sultan's, backed by the army and run by his own intellectual bureaucracy. Jingiby (talk) 18:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Atatürk, The Rebirth of a Nation, Lord Kinross, 1965 , p. 365: Some confusion as to his identity persisted, however, for some years to come. Inspecting some soldiers in Anatolia, Kemal once asked, "Who is God and where does He live?" The soldier, anxious to please, replied, "God is Mustafa Kemal Pasha. He lives in Angora." "And where is Angora?" Kemal asked. "Angora is in Istanbul," was the reply. Farther down the line he asked another soldier, "Who is Mustafa Kemal?" The reply was, "Our Sultan." Jingiby (talk) 18:56, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Grey Wolf, Mustafa Kemal: An Intimate Study of a Dictator, H.C. Armstrong, 1934, p. 241: "For five hundred years these rules and theories of an Arab sheik," he said, "and the interpretations of generations of lazy, good-for-nothing priests have decided the civil and the criminal law of Turkey." Jingiby (talk) 18:59, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I have not provided sources because the best one, the original of his Nüfus Cüzdani (ID) is in the museum within Anıt Kabir where you can see that it says "Religion: Islam". (I visit there at every opportunity and never had such a stupid question like this in my mind.) There are many photos of that ID in the internet, I add one for you here and will not speak to you again. --E4024 (talk) 19:07, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Emil Lengyel, (Turkey) 1941, pp. 140-141: During the early days of Kemal's career, many of his followers were under the impression that he was a champion of Islam and that they were fighting the Christians. "Ghazi, Destroyer of Christians" was the name they gave him. Had they been aware of his real intentions, they would have called him "Ghazi, Destroyer of Islam." Jingiby (talk) 19:15, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Kemal was virulently antireligious and he saw Islam as the primary source as his country's backwardness. He is reported to said once: "He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap." The Modern Middle East: A Political History Since the First World War, Mehran Kamrava, University of California Press, 2011, ISBN 0520267745, p. 56. Jingiby (talk) 06:12, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Yurttaslik Bilgileri, Yenigun Haber Ajansi (1997 edition) p. 18.: " It is claimed that religious unity is also a factor in the formation of nations. Whereas, we see the contrary in the Turkish nation. Turks were a great nation even before they adopted Islam. This religion did not help the Arabs, Iranians, Egyptians and others to unite with Turks to form a nation. Conversely, it weakened the Turks’ national relations; it numbed Turkish national feelings and enthusiasm. This was natural, because Mohammedanism was based on Arab nationalism above all nationalities." Jingiby (talk) 06:18, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Kemal Atatürk, who saw Islam as a hindrance to the modernization of Turkey. Blaming the religion for his nation's defeat in World War I, he derided Islam as “the absurd theology of an immoral Bedouin.” Lone Wolf Terror and the Rise of Leaderless Resistance, George Michael, Vanderbilt University Press, 2012, ISBN 0826518559, p. 119.

However, I see any real discussion, only blind reverts and deletion of sources made on the article by User:Chauahuasachca and partially here, on discussion, but made by User:E4024. Please, stop this and provide Academic sources or held a correct discussion. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 06:39, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

According to Cambridge University Press publication, he was agnostic or at least non doctrinaire deist. The Cambridge History of Turkey, Reşat Kasaba, Cambridge University Press, 2008, ISBN 0521620961, p. 163. I suggest to remove from the article's infobox the personal category religion, because most sources describe Ataturk as atheist or agnostic. Are there other suggestions, please. Jingiby (talk)

No objections were registered. I am going to delete the personal category religion from the infobox. Jingiby (talk) 14:30, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Mustafa Kemal has never been a muslim, there is no sources, he did never go in a mosquee, he is a free-masson, that's all folk! We can say and admit he was a deist --Alsace38 (talk) 20:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

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