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Revision as of 05:25, 28 January 2013 editErikHaugen (talk | contribs)Administrators15,849 edits regarding noetica; background regarding context← Previous edit Revision as of 09:09, 28 January 2013 edit undoSMcCandlish (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors201,658 edits →Comment by SMcCandlish: new subsectionNext edit →
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* {{tq|ARBCOM does not resolve content disputes, their role was just to stop everyone from arguing}}—Noetica never said Arbcom resolved the dispute. {{tq|settled in 2011 under ArbCom supervision}}—That's exactly what happened. There was a community discussion that Arbcom asked for and supervised. * {{tq|ARBCOM does not resolve content disputes, their role was just to stop everyone from arguing}}—Noetica never said Arbcom resolved the dispute. {{tq|settled in 2011 under ArbCom supervision}}—That's exactly what happened. There was a community discussion that Arbcom asked for and supervised.
* Regarding the conversation captured by the other diffs, it's important to keep in mind that this was spawned by SoV's accusation of bad faith : {{tq|The only reason to re-insert it at this is to make a DISRUPTIVE POINT about MOSDASH.}} I think when viewed in this context of defending against that, Noetica's comments are not "commenting on the editor" out of the blue. ] <small>(] &#124; ])</small> 05:24, 28 January 2013 (UTC) * Regarding the conversation captured by the other diffs, it's important to keep in mind that this was spawned by SoV's accusation of bad faith : {{tq|The only reason to re-insert it at this is to make a DISRUPTIVE POINT about MOSDASH.}} I think when viewed in this context of defending against that, Noetica's comments are not "commenting on the editor" out of the blue. ] <small>(] &#124; ])</small> 05:24, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

===== Comment by SMcCandlish =====
*I, too, find it disconcerting that SarekOfVulcan does not seem to understand that ] applies to admins in particular, not random editors, that he seems unclear that his statements and actions in this matter are not comparable to Noetica's, and that he's been so heavily involved administratively in something he's also been so heavily involved in as a stakeholding editor. Anyway, this request for enforcement by Apteva is a ]y farce. PS: I agree with the criticism that Noetica's "if you sanction me, I quit" smacks of ]. That said, of all the "wiki-sins" one could commit in this extended brouhaha, that seems to be the least of all. I take it as a simple expression of frustration, and of bewilderment that Apteva has been permitted to carry on so disruptively for so long. His (and Wikid77's & LittleBenW's ]) tendentious-to-death-and-beyond nonsense makes {{em|me}} want to quit, too, sometimes. — <font face="Trebuchet MS">''']''' &nbsp;<span style="white-space:nowrap;">] ɖ<sup><big>⊝</big></sup>כ<sup>⊙</sup>þ </span> <small>]</small></font> 09:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


===Result concerning Noetica=== ===Result concerning Noetica===

Revision as of 09:09, 28 January 2013

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    Apteva

    Apteva is warned about possible discretionary sanctions under Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation. The restriction concerning Misplaced Pages:Article titles imposed by SarekOfVulcan and logged at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions is rescinded by consensus among uninvolved administrators at this noticeboard.  Sandstein  20:52, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Request concerning Apteva

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    SarekOfVulcan (talk) 11:48, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Apteva (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions (Article titles)
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 21 January 2013 (See explanation below)
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on 3 January 2013 by SarekOfVulcan (talk · contribs)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    During a related edit war, Apteva started a discussion on 2 January, seen at Misplaced Pages talk:Article titles/Archive 39#Common names, regarding the excessive number of examples at WP:AT#Common names. The last edit to that particular thread was on 6 January, with Apteva asking Are any other examples needed, or are three plenty?. Having no other input, he implemented the results of the discussion in the diff above, citing "per talk", but not linking directly to the archived discussion. (Blueboar, not seeing the discussion on the active talkpage, reverted.) Noetica posted on my talkpage requesting that I sanction Apteva, per the discretionary sanctions I imposed above to end the edit war on a policy page.

    However, since the last line of the logged sanction explicitly said Should a consensus discussion determine that there don't need to be 21 examples, ... that of course will not call for a block I'm not sure that there's a violation here. Therefore, I've brought the request here for independent review. Did Apteva have sufficient consensus for his edit? If so, is Noetica's request for a block tendentious, and does it call for a block itself? Thanks.

    @Sandstein -- honestly, I don't think that edit was a violation of the sanctions, as it took place after an attempt at consensus discussion. However, Noetica argued on my talkpage that it was, and I didn't feel comfortable making the call in either direction myself, so I brought it here. There's currently another discussion dealing with reducing the number of examples -- once that determines what the appropriate examples are (how many and which ones), the need for this sanction will go away. As far as the warning goes, everyone who needed to see it clearly did, as shown in the lack of edit warring on the policy page since then.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:40, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Notified here

    Discussion concerning Apteva

    Statement by Apteva

    That was a consensus edit made per the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Article titles/Archive 39#Common names. Since it was reverted, it will be re-opened for further discussion. But per that discussion, a clear request was made are there any more examples that needed to be added, and since none were added, the draft was dropped in as required. "Are any other examples needed, or are three plenty?" To do anything less would have been irresponsible. Apteva (talk) 01:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

    As others have pointed out although the warning could be literally construed to mean that forever that specific example must always be at WP:AT until someone goes to Arb to get it lifted, few interpreted it that narrowly and instead construed it to mean that if anyone changed that and only that example as a bold edit and not as a consensus process they would be blocked for continuing an edit war. The edit war was completely unacceptable, and was not stopped until that warning was given, even though there was ongoing discussion about the list of examples. Normally no one expects to not be blocked who participates in an edit war instead of participating in an ongoing discussion and waiting until that discussion concludes before taking action. WP:AT is watched by approximately 600 editors, and it does not seem unreasonable to expect that if anyone had any objection to the three examples in the draft they would have said something during the two weeks between the final are three plenty question and when the page was archived. From 20:40, 2 January 2013 (UTC) when the talk page discussion started, the page was changed and finally with the "supervote" . These follow the three edits that occurred before 20:40, so in all the edit war consisted of eight edits. Seven minutes later we were warned not to restore that example which had been removed. I would have to construe it a "tag team" edit war, which I had no intention of starting, although I would stipulate that the initial edit (of the eight) was made for the purpose of disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point. Apteva (talk) 22:09, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

    Per WP:BRD, if anyone is warned, it should be those who made the six edits after mine. While it is optional to do a BDR cycle instead of a BRD cycle, there really is nothing wrong with doing BRD, and a lot wrong with doing BRR... and no discussion. Apteva (talk) 22:15, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

    For the record, I prefer to be referred to in gender neutral terms, no matter how strange that seems to anyone who has not made the transition from calling everyone he and she, and using he for both. He/she, his/her, they, xe, even "it" works, but not he, and not she. Thanks. Apteva (talk) 19:14, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

    Comment. 1RR is not necessary on WP:AT. There is very little edit warring there and the edit war that did exist was a tag team edit war involving eight different editors and eight different edits. On the other hand reinstating the 1RR at MOS is warranted as the constant edit warring there is still continuing. Apteva (talk) 05:16, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

    Just as a comment, per WP:ARBATC#The Manual of Style the intent of a style guide is not to provide hard rules. For example, titles are often names of items, and it really should not be a part of the MOS to specify how titles are chosen. Up until October 2007, there was nothing in the MOS about choosing titles, but with this edit, someone who perhaps did not even know that we already had guidelines on how titles are chosen, but did know that we had a MOS, insisted that there needed to be a section in the MOS about how titles are chosen. I think that it has been way too contentious to refer to the MOS in choosing titles, and that all of that material should be moved back to WP:AT. In this edit the bold statement which was not discussed at WP:AT, was made that effectively WP:AT has no bearing on choosing titles, but only WP:MOS chooses titles. Since then much of the discussion at MOS has been about titles, all of which in my opinion is inappropriate, as only WP:AT and WP:RM decides titles, and the idea of "styling" an article title is farcical (styling only applies to choosing a font or font size, and that is done by the browser, not WP). Apteva (talk) 17:36, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

    • I would strongly recommend that that warning be given to the five editors who actually were edit warring, not myself, and to the editor who actually was being disruptive, not myself, for making the bold edit that led to that edit war. Apteva (talk) 14:45, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Apteva

    @Cailil: Agreed. I noticed after adding the comment above that he was still participating at WT:AT. Mathsci (talk) 16:45, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

    Comments by NE Ent

    Making an edit and then declaring anyone who changes it will be AE blocked per Discretionary Sanctions is bogus. First of all, it's textbook involved -- being an admin doesn't give SoV a supervote on the content dispute. Secondly, Discretionary sanctions specifically require "the editor in question be given a warning", and the procedures for administrators specifically state:
    "4. Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways;
    5. Notices of imposed sanctions should specify the misconduct for which they have been imposed as well as the appeal process;"
    In simpler terms -- if an admin is going to DS an editor they should be posting a notice on the editor's talk page.

    The log of the incorrect sanction should be deleted and this case closed. NE Ent 13:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

    Comments by Dicklyon

    Apteva has a habit of making himself very hard to ignore. His proposal to trim to 3 examples got zero support and got archived, yet he claims it would have been irresponsible for him to not go ahead and implement it, just because nobody extended his list. Very bogus. But is there an enforceable ban against such bullshit? I don't think so. Even his violations of his badly worded topic ban slide by. Teflon? Dicklyon (talk) 23:45, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

    Comments by Rschen7754

    MBisanz already gave Apteva a final warning. --Rschen7754 19:17, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

    Comments by GoodDay

    I'm assuming that whatever the arbitrators decide, that decision will also apply to Delphi234, which Apteva's an alternate account of. GoodDay (talk) 18:17, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

    Result concerning Apteva

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • Very early response. Awaiting Apteva's statement. Before going any further I do think Noetica should be named above and asked to make a statement as in fairness to them SoV is bringing up potential sanctions against them.
      From a prima facia review Apteva probably didn't have consensus for the change (especially given the warning s/he had from SoV) and as Blueboar's revert noted the talk thread wasn't linked to and even in that thread the issue isn't actually discussed. As far as I can see there was no discussion in relation to Apteva's questions "is three plenty?" (see the end of the first subsection of this thread) - in that context that edit does look tendentious to me, but I'd like to see other sysop's views--Cailil 12:41, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    • @Mathsci: Apteva's community sanction is seperate. SoV has logged a specific page probation at Misplaced Pages:Article titles WRT this particular revert war, under the terms of the linked RFAR. It's this page probation that is being discussed and whether Apteva broke that, rather than his community sanction--Cailil 16:39, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I don't see how this edit is in violation of any AE-enforceable restriction. From what I can tell, SarekOfVulcan's argument is that Apteva's edit was in violation of SarekOfVulcan's very informally worded talk page comment, which was apparently meant to be read as an order to other editors not to change "Halley" to "Halley-Bopp" or "Halley–Bopp", on pain of a block under the discretionary sanctions authority. However, even if one assumes arguendo that this order was a valid exercise of the discretionary sanctions authority, discretionary sanctions can only be imposed, per WP:AC/DS, after "the editor in question given a warning with a link to the decision authorizing sanctions". There's no diff in evidence indicating that a warning meeting these requirements was given to Apteva, especially in relation with the abovementioned order. Accordingly, I recommend closing this as not actionable. Furthermore, I doubt that SarekOfVulcan's order, as written, is a valid exercise of the discretionary sanctions authority. I don't think AE authority may be used to freeze a page in one's preferred state, if only because after editing the page one has become editorially involved and may no longer act in one's administrative capacity. I therefore strongly recommend that SarekOfVulcan rescind said order and remove it from Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions, where it is logged in a confusing and lengthy manner.  Sandstein  23:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I see that NE Ent above has made a very similar point, and I agree with them that SarekOfVulcan's "warning", such as it was, fell far short of the formal requirements for AE warnings that NE Ent cites.  Sandstein  23:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I'd agree that Apteva was not directly warned. However the page in question has a very clear notification of AC/DS - I'd consider that sufficient constructive warning for all involved (especially in light of the numerous discussions they were having there). However I'd agree that SoV's approach was in the least novel, by making an edit himself. This was discussed on his talk page and the advice given was that he shouldn't implement any blocks - that's what he's doing in bringing it here. That said I think Sandstein and NE Ent have a point - even if SoV didn't intend (and in my view he didn't) to "freeze the page in a preferred state" it looks like he did. That makes the whole issue sufficiently ambiguous to create as much or more trouble than it is seeking to prevent.
      But there again we have Apteva continuing an edit war nearly a month after it was resolved with a claim of consensus that is not borne out on the talk page. In my view we CAN investigate Apteva's conduct vis-a-vis the RFAR even if we rescind SoV's warning. Such an investigation may result (and in my view it might be enough) with a final warning for Apteva but I don't think we should ignore this--Cailil 13:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
    In view of my above comment I haven't reviewed the context of Apteva's edit, but I've no objection to any appropriate warning.  Sandstein  21:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I recommend lifting the specific restriction imposed by SarekOfVulcan on Misplaced Pages:Article titles, a sanction which can be undone by a consensus here. If Sarek had originally proposed this restriction at WP:AE instead of enacting it himself, it seems to me it would be unlikely to be approved. It is too adventurous and is open to many challenges. EdJohnston (talk) 17:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
    Agreed.  Sandstein  21:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
    Specifically looking at the sanction and enforcement request and not the surrounding issues of the edit having consensus or not, the sanction was very loosely worded and it appears, whether intentional or not, that the page was put in a locked state to enforce the right version with a sanction over top of it to stop anyone who did want to change it. Either way, the sanction was very loosely worded and I agree with Sandstien that we can't enforce it. With the wording at this level, and how it appears, I also agree that the sanction needs to be rescinded until overturned by the community as Ed worded it above. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 22:18, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Agree with rescinding SoV's sanction but I think we are missing the point significantly if we ignore Apteva's behaviour, which was clearly incompatible with the RFAR. (However in light of the lack of a direct warning re: this RFAR I would suggest issuing a final warning to Apteva & no harsher sanction at this time)--Cailil 17:14, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I don't think we are ignoring Apteva's behavior; but if you feel it necessary, I have no objection to adding an official AE warning to those which they have already received. KillerChihuahua 19:19, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I agree that we should give a DS warning to Apteva. Though I'm not sure implementing 1RR is going to do anything of benefit here. It appears already that the reverts have been mostly within that restriction already. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 14:37, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I don't particularly object to 1RR, but the need for applying such restrictions is not evident to me from the evidence submitted here, nor from the recent page histories.  Sandstein  14:49, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
    • The boilerplate will do, I think, because it's not very clear what Apteva is supposed to have done wrong except making an edit that allegedly did not reflect consensus. So closing.  Sandstein  20:48, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

    Noetica

    Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

    Request concerning Noetica

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Apteva (talk) 13:58, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Noetica (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#All parties reminded

    Here is someone you can warn about WP:ARBATC

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 27 January 2013 ARBCOM does not resolve content disputes, their role was just to stop everyone from arguing
    2. 27 January 2013 Such vitriolic serves no purpose and has nothing to do with improving this policy
    3. 27 January 2013 After two further edits to fix grammar
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on 3 January 2013 by Apteva (talk · contribs)
    2. Warned on 11 January 2013 by Born2cycle (talk · contribs)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Focusing on the editor is endemic at Misplaced Pages talk:MOS.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Noetica

    Statement by Noetica

    I thank Guerillero, Sandstein, and The Devil's Advocate for remarks made so far, either here or in the recently closed section regarding Apteva.

    I agree with The Devil's Advocate: this is terribly POINTy. Apteva has been causing widespread disruption to editors' work for months. At WP:MOS, WP:TITLE, many RMs (reopening old disputes that had been long settled), users' talkpages, the village pump, ArbCom itself (starting an action that was given short shrift), and so on. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Apteva and its talkpage, and lengthy discussions at WP:AN that followed. They resulted in a topic ban whose boundaries Apteva relentlessly tests. See the latest discussions of that provocation, initiated at WP:AN with this edit. Because I am centrally involved in the development of WP:MOS, but not an admin, I am vulnerable when I work toward order and harmony in its relations with WP:TITLE. I have had to play a part in actions against Apteva's anti-consensus campaign, and this AE application is just one episode in that campaign.

    Admin SarekOfVulcan became involved in a dispute at WP:TITLE over moves to include an example that was common to both WP:TITLE and WP:MOS, showing their harmony and natural accord. I have consistently claimed that this was settled by wide community consultation under ArbCom direction in 2011. Sarek is with Apteva in rejecting that accord, and in editing to reduce evidence of that accord. Sandstein has now rescinded the provision that Sarek added under the DS arrangements (see section concerning Apteva, above on this page). I objected at Sarek's talkpage to his acting as an admin while involved, as did some of his fellow admins. I am glad that Sandstein has sorted things out. In evidence, Apteva provides only diffs from WT:TITLE, in which I pointed out Sarek's compromised status as an admin attending to pages in which he pushes an agenda. I am glad that I will no longer have to do that, because as I say I am without the protection that some admins assume as their right.

    If I have time (always a problem), I will continue to insist on due process in development of core policy and guideline pages on Misplaced Pages. I expect to do so without impediments from abuse of power, or from ingeniously conducted campaigns to game the system. Apteva plays an interesting hand, with more than one RFA in recent times and even an RFB . No one has the resources to track all of those capers; but perhaps something more systematic might eventually be done about them.

    I request that this application be speedily dismissed, as purely vexatious.

    Noetica 22:11, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

    Updates to my statement:

    • I note that KillerChihuahua has entered the discussion, without revealing the history of our interactions. I would ask her to withdraw her contribution here; or let her explain her own involvement in the page Men's rights movement where she exerts herself as an administrator. See her unsolicited and unsigned post at my talkpage giving her opinion during an unsuccessful RM, later overturned by an irregular move without any advertisement of a request to move, and that she herself closed and performed.
    • I note that Sarek has commented. Sarek recommended against sanctions for Apteva in the AE action that has been closed above, after I drew his attention to what Apteva had done and how it might connect with Sarek's DS provision (since rescinded by Sandstein). Instead, Sarek raised the possibility of sanctions against me, just for making that note at his talkpage: "Sarek, please review ... I believe ...". I did nothing more; I did not post in the section above concerning Apteva. Sarek continues to be involved and biased. I am involved, of course; but then, I am not an admin throwing my weight around.
    • I thank the other commenters for their contributions.
    • I note that any warning under the DS sanctions would unfairly inhibit my main work on Wikpedia (leaving me vulnerable to blocks on the whim of any admin).
    • Bearing everything so far in mind, I make this promise:
      If I receive any sanction or any formal warning whatsoever as a result of Apteva's AE action against me, I will leave Misplaced Pages.

    This is my final post here. I have no time. I will not supplement or defend anything that I say above, and any further comments from others will need to be considered in that light.

    Carry on! ♥

    Noetica 01:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

    Comments by others about the request concerning Noetica

    Comment by The Devil's Advocate

    This seems like a terribly POINTy AE request given the above discussion regarding Apteva.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 18:47, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

    Sandstein suggested on my talk page that my comment above was "not helpful" because I commented on the nature of the request rather than the edits. However, the filer of a request should be subject to just as much scrutiny as the subject of the request. In this case Apteva filed this soon after admins above were discussing whether to issue a "final warning" to Apteva regarding the same dispute. Noetica and Apteva have history, as is apparent from looking at the RfC/U on Apteva, so it is hard to see how this was not about making some sort of point to the effect of "You think I'm bad? Check this guy out." Anyone who wants proof that this is about making a point need only look at Apteva's comment "Here is someone you can warn about WP:ARBATC".--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:01, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
    Comment by Guerillero

    I don't see any misconduct here --Guerillero | My Talk 20:59, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

    Comment by SarekOfVulcan

    I was slightly amused by Noetica talking about 60 editors hammering out the MOS, completely ignoring that I was one of those 60, and agreed with most of the points in the final RFC. What I'm objecting to is Noetica et cie attempting to use the COMMONNAME section of article titles to attempt to settle an argument over whether MOSDASH applies to article titles. I am less amused by his trying to claim that I'm too WP:INVOLVED to act here, when he's INVOLVED up to his eyebrows. I think this attempt to use COMMONNAME to settle an MOSDASH dispute is a clear disruption, as forbidden by WP:ARBATC. I strongly urge that this not be merely "dismissed as vexatious", per Noetica's request.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:49, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

    An argument could be made that "If you dare warn me that I'm doing anything at all wrong, I'm taking my ball and going home" in the middle of an AE discussion is grounds for a warning that they're doing something wrong... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
    Comment by Dicklyon

    WP:INVOLVED is about admins. SarekOfVulcan is an admin. Noetica is not. SarekOfVulcan has imposed sanctions in the same dispute that he talks sides on the substance of. This is not OK. How else can this problem be discussed than by discussing SarekOfVulcan's conduct? Dicklyon (talk) 00:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

    Comment by Ohconfucius

    I frequent RM, the MOS and various policy pages, thus I'm interested in the topic at hand. I find it rather amusing that Apteva chose to launch what is clearly a tit-for-tat against Noetica for the request in the section immediately above. Apteva, who has been serially disruptive at MOS and now at TITLE, seeks to deny that there is or can ever be a link between WP:TITLE, which is policy, and the MOS, which is a guideline. Apteva, allied with a small but vocal brigade, has been mobilising, trying to make TITLE as bland and as stylistically nonsensical as is possible. After I opposed the removal of one illustrative example – which IMHO ought to have resulted in a block for topic-ban violation, he proceeded to make a convenient simplification based on a non-existent discussion, and in the act creating potential contradictions in the articles that may be so covered (such as the use of capitals, dashes and the like). Noetica, on the other hand also quite vocal, is a skilled professional writer who has been highly influential in shaping the MOS, bringing significant stylistic improvements to Misplaced Pages. In almost every discussion, although the latter may be very passionate in his style, I have been won over by his painstaking efforts to listen, explain, discuss and evaluate changes in policy wording. He also clearly demonstrated the ramifications of the wording and non-acceptance of what seems to be a well-established consensus on the use of dashes in for example Hale–Bopp, but has been met instead by stonewalling and edit-warring. I would also say that it was a mistake not to have topic-banned Apteva from all aspects of Manual of Style broadly construed because he is clearly perpetuating the disruption that was going on at MOS over dashes; he further escalated the drama by initiating this request. I disdain at the thought and fear that a full-blown Arbcom case looks more and more inevitable by the day. -- Ohconfucius  02:17, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

    Comment by Neotarf
    • Apteva has long tried to suppress any discussion of his disruptions, at one point even removing a notification of a discussion on another page. But if the Project is being disrupted, in this case for months on end, it is entirely appropriate for the community to try to deal with the disruption on its own before attempting other remedies. Read again the wording of the policy on WP:No Personal Attacks: "...comments should not be personalized. That is, they should be directed at content and actions rather than people." Clearly this is not meant to prohibit legitimate criticism of someone's actions, but rather gratuitous insults.
    But can an editor criticize an admin's actions? In case there is any doubt, the policy further states "... pointing out an editor's relevant conflict of interest and its relevance to the discussion at hand is not considered a personal attack..." Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks does not prohibit bona fide criticism; it prohibits attacks. It certainly does not prohibit all discussion that is not about edits.
    • I see User:Killerchihuahua has weighed in at the "Result concerning Noetica" section for "uninvolved administrators". There is obvious bad blood between her and Noetica; see the Men's rights RFC and subsequent ArbCom dealings. It would be better if she would decide to recuse herself.

    —Neotarf (talk) 03:15, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

    Comment by ErikHaugen
    • ARBCOM does not resolve content disputes, their role was just to stop everyone from arguing—Noetica never said Arbcom resolved the dispute. settled in 2011 under ArbCom supervision—That's exactly what happened. There was a community discussion that Arbcom asked for and supervised.
    • Regarding the conversation captured by the other diffs, it's important to keep in mind that this was spawned by SoV's accusation of bad faith here: The only reason to re-insert it at this is to make a DISRUPTIVE POINT about MOSDASH. I think when viewed in this context of defending against that, Noetica's comments are not "commenting on the editor" out of the blue. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 05:24, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
    Comment by SMcCandlish
    • I, too, find it disconcerting that SarekOfVulcan does not seem to understand that WP:INVOLVED applies to admins in particular, not random editors, that he seems unclear that his statements and actions in this matter are not comparable to Noetica's, and that he's been so heavily involved administratively in something he's also been so heavily involved in as a stakeholding editor. Anyway, this request for enforcement by Apteva is a WP:POINTy farce. PS: I agree with the criticism that Noetica's "if you sanction me, I quit" smacks of WP:DIVA. That said, of all the "wiki-sins" one could commit in this extended brouhaha, that seems to be the least of all. I take it as a simple expression of frustration, and of bewilderment that Apteva has been permitted to carry on so disruptively for so long. His (and Wikid77's & LittleBenW's WP:TAGTEAM) tendentious-to-death-and-beyond nonsense makes me want to quit, too, sometimes. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 09:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

    Result concerning Noetica

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
    • Awaiting Noetica's statement before examining the evidence. But I'm inclined to close this as nonactionable because the "All parties reminded" remedy is not accompanied by a corresponding enforcement provision. The enforcement provision of the decision refers to "user subject to an editing restriction", which the "All parties reminded" remedy does not provide for. Applying discretionary sanctions requires a warning that meets the requirements of WP:AC/DS#Sanctions, and no diff of such a warning is in evidence.  Sandstein  21:21, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
    • After considering the submitted evidence and Noetica's statement, I recommend closing this request either without action or with a discretionary sanctions warning to Noetica, similar to the one issued to Apteva in the preceding request. The grounds for the possible warning is that all other editors must abide by the requirement of WP:NPA to "comment on content, not on the contributor". In particular, they may not make broad allegations of bad faith or misconduct on the part of others. Such allegations are admissible only in the context of the resolution of conduct disputes and when they are supported by specific evidence in the form of diffs. In all other circumstances (e.g., in a policy talk page discussion) they must be avoided. The Arbitration Committee has recognized this in a decision, which I don't currently have at hand, that forbids "casting aspersions" on others by making broad, unsubstantiated allegations of misconduct. In the instant case, I tend to believe that while Noetica has alleged misconduct by others, they have done so with a sufficiently close focus on the dispute at issue (i.e., an administrator's disputed involvement) and/or citing evidence such as a now-concluded RfC. As such, a warning may not be required. But other administrators may view the matter differently.  Sandstein  23:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
    • For me there is little basis here but not no basis. I tend to see Sandstein suggestion of a warning for Noetica as appropriate. The comments at SoV were sufficiently ad hominem (and needlessly so) to have crossed the line set by ArbCom in the RFAR. The casting aspersions RFAR remedy was in relation to climate change but was used again in the child of midnight RFAR. However in my view the relevant RFAR here makes it clear that personalizing disputes was the source of the problems that led to that case and are to be avoided. I think a warning would be temperate and hopefully would encourage Noetica to avoid ad hominem for here on in. This diff in particular is not about content at all--Cailil 23:42, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Concur with the above; there were NPA violations which met the "casting aspersions" criteria (thanks for posting those links, Calil!) but a warning is sufficient to this particular instance. KillerChihuahua 23:47, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I don't find this request vexatious, as the diffs cited are concerning examples of concentrating on the editor rather than the edit. However, as above, I think a warning would suffice. Seraphimblade 00:06, 28 January 2013 (UTC)