Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:36, 19 May 2006

Completely absurd article. Somewhat high in ghits, but I propose that it is still non-notable. A variety of ghits are on absurd patent sites. No real verifiable sources, mostly questionable papers, and some suspect sources - why is the clinic on the website of some random ISP instead of the hospital website. Also, searching on google for the award mentioned gives only two hits, one of which is to the baobab site. Philosophus 20:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

After looking at early revisions of this article, I have decided to remain neutral on this, as it seems to be more notable than I had thought. --Philosophus 21:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

If no one objects, I would like to withdraw this nomination. The early revision that I have reverted to does a better job at asserting notability, following NPOV, and citing reputable sources. --Philosophus 01:51, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

• Comment utterly bizarre! Just goes to show that there's still one born every minute.. Looks like a cautious keep right now, but more research needed. Anybody with knowledge of this area? Just zis Guy you know? 22:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - let me say firstly that I think this test is a load of bull*&%*. It has no scientific value, and no other value other than to propagate the insanity of some Japanese guy. Nevertheless, it's encyclopedic because it's notable. Keep. - Richardcavell 00:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
• Comment – As the original creator of the article I would simply point out that the article as originally created, however imperfect, would seem to meet Wiki criteria. So far as I can determine the alterations/additions which prompted the nomination for deletion were made by a proponent, and that their insupportability speaks for itself. I'm a comparative newcomer to this process, so please pardon any infelicities on my part. Fucyfre 04:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

This article clearly stands up to Misplaced Pages criteria. There is no original/new research: the article refers to and points to in the external links already published research. The research mentioned is also by reputable sources - they are medical doctors, scientist etc all with the standard doctoral or medical doctor qualifications. The idea expressed here that the information or that the Test itself is unscientific is flatly incorrect. The research and methodology of the BDORT satisfies accepted scientific method: observation, hypothesis, induction/deduction, etc. The claim of "pseudoscience" itself needs to be examined. Are any of the commentators here scientifically trained to Ph.D level? especially regarding electromagnetism? The BDORT deals with electromagnetic phenomena. This is a neglected paradigm in orthodox western medicine, but not among all doctors, which is a key point. See for example the many presentations by US doctors, scientists etc at Google: Whole Person Healing Summit. In other words, to say that it has no scientific value etc, is an opinion, that is, it is non-neutral. Are the commentators here seriously claiming to be able to refute the many published research papers of around 50 recognized scientists/doctors around the world?! On what basis is this credible? It is of course not. This is an absurd idea. The original author of this page obviously, as with some of the other contributors to the page, does not 'like' the BDORT. But that is not sufficient. You cannot call it names because of that. They are giving their opinion throughout their text - which is not Misplaced Pages practice. Their comments are therefore very biased indeed. When I simply added further information, as for example in the case of the NZ doctor, rather than deleting the existing text, my additions - which were extra information about the subject - were deleted. This outrightly violates Misplaced Pages policy. This needs to be 100% clear. What is being objected to, on analysis, is that I am presenting information that does not cohere with the bias of the contributors. On that insufficient basis, the different Misplaced Pages criteria are being sited, but erroneously as I have explained. Phrases like "and that their insupportability speaks for itself" sounds impressive, but are not substantiated in any way given. Regarding my non-neutrality, I am of course an advocate of the BDORT. But I have aimed in my last big rewrite to only include information, facts, figures etc. If people wish to improve on the neutrality of the information I have written, then please do, but please also note, that that does not equate to deleting information - which is the basis of what an encyclopedia is for. ---- RichardMalter

• Comment As you will note a RfD of this article was made, and a discussion has ensued. Presumably a consensus will in time emerge.

I would note that a Google search indicates that a Richard Malter is an active proponent of the BDORT as well as other ‘alternative’ approaches. These speak for themselves and require no characterization on my part. I would note that the characterization of the testimony of the scientific and medical authorities before the Medical Practioners Disciplinary Tribunal of New Zealand as provided by Richard Malter is factually incorrect. Malter indicates of the commission’s hearings in his edit of the original BDORT entry (since reverted) that ‘The Tribunal also noted that Richard Gorringe was not using the BDORT in the accepted correct way.’ In point of fact, as a reading of the commission’s report, as linked to, indicates, the commission explicitly chose to treat the distinction between BDORT and PMRT, which Richard Malter asserts it as having made, as nonexistant. See, eg, p 25, paragraph 100, which reads, in its entirety, ‘At each consultation Dr Gorringe ‘’muscle tested’’ Mrs Short by a procedure called ‘’Peak Muscle Resistance Training’’ which he used as a diagnostic tool. We refer to this procedure later and throughout this judgement as PMRT. It is also referred to as the Bi Digital O Ring Testing (BDORT).’ Further, Professor Cannell, heard as expert witness by the commission, and with whose evidence and conclusions the commissions in its rulings explicitly and officially agreed, stated, as summarized by the commission in its official ruling on p 63, paragraphs 305, that, ‘Professor Cannell referred to some 14 references in the literature which examined scientifically whether there was any reliability in applied kinesiology (AK) methods, which include PMRT or BDORT. He stated that none of those studies reached the conclusion that PMRT was a reliable diagnostic technique.’ Professor Cannel is further quoted in the commission report as stating that, ‘In summary I find the descriptions of the AK methods and in particular the BDORT test to be inconsistent with known physical principles. Even if it were possible to create a “field” with these methods, AK methods and (BDORTing) have not been shown to produce an electrical field which is required to alter the electrical activation of nerve and muscle. A limited survey of the literature shows that the AK testing results are unreliable – and this idea is apparently supported by some organizations that support complementary medicine. I find it deeply disturbing that the only people who seem to claim reliable diagnostic results are those who make a living from applying it some controlled scientific tests reveal no validity to these claims.’ It should be noted that this testimony was not merely offered before the committee but was judged by the committee in its final judgement to be, in fact, the judgement of the committee.

I am unaware of any objective, scientific, double-blind, peer-reviewed support for the claims of the proponents of the BDORT and I am also unaware of any such objective, scientific, peer-review having ever been sought by Dr Omura. If such exist, as opposed to patent advocacy, partisan, non-objective, non double-blinded, utterly unfounded in other-than anecdotalism and blind faith, let them be cited. A claim to scientific validity without subjecting of the claims to falsifiable, objective review, is by definition pseudo-science. Fucyfre

• Keep - This article exposes another form of quackery and pseudoscience and thus serves a valuable function. This is just another variation of Applied kinesiology, a chiropractic technique used by many practitioners of so-Called "Alternative" Medicine (sCAM). -- Fyslee 04:35, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Reply "the commission explicitly chose to treat the distinction between BDORT and PMRT as non-existent" is a fact about the Tribunial proceedings and perspective, not about the BDORT. This is a confusion of topic on Fucyfre's part. The fact that Gorringe used the BDORT incorrectly (he should have used the Indirect BDORT method if the patient could not for any reason be tested directly) in fact makes the Tribunial decision not about the BDORT but about Gorringe. To focus on the case of Gorringe is therefore useless to this discussion. Of course it will serve the bias of someone who does not agree for whatever reason with the BDORT. Omura and other researchers of the BDORT have carried out peer-reviewed, scientific method, double and sometimes triple blinded research and experiments. If you have not read these papers it does not equate to that they do not exist. You are making an unfounded statement: I suggest you spend some more time reviewing the documentation available. You obviously have a bias against anything that is not mainstream medicine, it is against Misplaced Pages culture for you to invest your contributions to this page with your bias. Your comments about nerve and muscle appear to be based on ignorance (from Latin: not know]. I suggest you read James Oshman PhD on the internet re the 'living matrix', and Yoshio Manaka Ph.D MD, Chasing The Dragon's Tail as a good starting place. You are thinking in a reductionist cartesian mechanistic paradigm and so missing much of how things happen: see also Bruce Lipton Ph.D The Biology of Belief for some up-to-date biology regarding electromagnetism, and Becker - The Body Electric. Otherwise you are making comments on limited information. --RichardMalter
Here is a peer reviewed triple blinded study by Dr Phillip Shinnick et al Director of the Research Institue of Global Physiology, Behaviour & Treatment, Inc, published in the US medicalacupuncture journal. http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol14_3/case3.html

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/Scientific_method "identifiable features that distinguish scientific inquiry" - the methodology of the research of the BDORT follows all the features explained. This should now end the discussion of scientificness.

Please clarify

After detailing the thing with the finger and thumb, I was confused by the following sentence: "By thus assessing the differing level of strength diagnosis is made, eg, by shining a laser pointer at the appropriate acupuncture point, judging the level of acetylcholine present in the patient's brain."

This seems like a non-sequitur to me. Is this technique about assessing the strength of the patients fingers in different conditions or is it about shining lasers at acupuncture points?

I think either it means it is in some way analogous to this other alternative medicine technique, or it means you can test the finger strength while stimulating the acupuncture point but I'm not sure. --Spondoolicks 14:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I think, to, in effect repeat myself, that the essential madness of the advocates of this methodology speaks for itself. – Spondoolicks, point taken. I haven't time free at the moment, but if there is consensual agreement I will attempt to clarify the description you found problematic. I have, by chance, some non-trivial familiarity with the madness of the BDORT and its adherents, and perhaps I may put it to some use. Fucyfre 15:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

• • I've edited it myself - I think I got the right idea but please check. --Spondoolicks 15:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Organ tissue

The abstract of the patent:

• A method of imaging an internal organ of a patient for purposes of medical diagnosis, where a patient forms an O-ring shape with one of hands by placing the fingertips of his thumb and one of his remaining fingers together and a sample of tissue of an internal organ is placed on the patient's other hand, and the patient's internal organ is non-invasively externally probed with a probing instrument. The internal organ is the same type of organ as that of the sample. Simultaneously a tester attempts to pull apart the O-ring shape by means of the tester placing his thumb and one of the remaining fingers of each of his hands within the O-ring shape of the patient to form interlocking O-rings and pulling the thumb and the finger of the patient apart due to an electromagnetic field of the tissue of the sample interacting with an electromagnetic field of the internal organ being probed and this interaction is detected by the ability to pull apart the O-ring shape thereby permitting imaging of the boundaries of the internal organ being probed.

Clearly indicates that organ tissue is an integral component of the test. Are there variations on the test that are verifiable? The patent doesn't mention medicines or lasers. -Will Beback 17:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

• Comment You got the right idea with respect to what's available in the patent, per se, but Omura's papers and practice claim infinitely more for the BDORT than simply that. I am, as I've indicated, by chance, particularly familiar with this. If there's no objection I'll extend the entry to Omura's actual claims and applications a bit later today, when I have time to sit down with it. They will be externally verifiable as to Omura's claims in that they are thoroughly if not exhaustively available in the journal he runs, and also to a considerable degree on his website, which is cited. Omura is the chief architect of both the Japanese BDORT society and the US/New York incarnation which he runs from his apartment. As I say, I am familiar with this matter. I intend, however, only to make objective, verifiable observations in the entry which will withstand objective review and community insight/modification. Fucyfre 00:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

You are expanding a bit overzealously. Why don't you consider consolidating the claims in the article in order to make it more readable? --Philosophus 07:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

NEW COMMENT I am a research scientist asked to commment on the Bi-digital O-ring test by a group of scientist since I published on this phenomenon in two article published in the American Journal of Acupuncture and Medical Acupuncture and did a 300 patient double blind study in the 80's. I worked with Dr. Omura for eight years and have been assistant professor at New York Medical College for six years. I now director a research institute. I am completiing a book on this as an independent anlysis since I have not worked with Omura since 1990. It has great benefit to medicine and science which I will discuss when my work is published which has taken almost eight years. P.S. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.131.19.159 (talk • contribs) . the comment was added by the scientist i contacted to help with the discussion who was not familiar with Misplaced Pages websites and had diificulty navigating this page as he told me by email - i simply placed the comment in chronological order. RichardMalter It must be noted now that there is clearly not concensus on this topic, but two opposing approaches to it. The opposing parties may not continue as they like for eg deleting plain what, where when etc information i add to the topic if they do not want outrightly to breach Misplaced Pages protocols.

Thanks for your input. Published results can be used references for the article, but unpublished personal knowledge my not be used, per our "No original research" policy. Cheers, -Will Beback 00:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

REPLY http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol14_3/case3.html - this scientist is refering to published results, as just one example; there are very numerous others published (on the net). You are ignoring these facts. You or anyone else have not replied to my earlier comments either. Furthermore when I did use such as references in the article revision, they were deleted, this is again antiWikipedia policy as you yourself infer. RichardMalter

This is not a reliable and reputable source in science and medicine. See WP:RS, for example, but that guideline doesn't give a very good explanation and is highly lacking in situations like this. WP:NOR does not mean we must present something as correct just because no one bothers to refute it in a reputable source. --Philosophus 07:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Selection of Published scientific papers by many medicial doctors/scientists around the world, including Japan, USA, Scandanavia, other European counctires, South America, Ukraine, Russia, etc

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7625244&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12934957&dopt=Abstract
http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/MOHKI/4thSympoabst.htm
http://pfarber.sites.uol.com.br/atualizacao.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1674834&dopt=Abstract
http://bdort.net/pdf/6thSympoEngAbst.pdf
http://bdort.net/en/abstracts.htm
http://bdort.net/en/2stinter.htm
http://www.ecim-europe.info/bdort/

The contributors on this page cannot rationally purport to be able to negate, ignore, refute etc all of these research papers - including the methodology of the papers/researchers - by the many physicians and scientists around the world. The BDORT therefore cannot rationally be termed pseudoscientific by them, since this is not the case and would clearly be incorrect information. Only personal opinion could suggest this. This should now end the debate about 'scientificness'. See also Scientific Method for this understanding. --RichardMalter 02:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I have checked every single 'independent' reference given above. Literally every single 'independent' reference is directly to Dr Omura or a close 'colleague.' Specifically, the first and most numerous references are to Dr Omura's own journal, which essentially consists of Dr Omura working from his apartment with a part time student assistant recruited by placing posters around the Columbia University campus area of Morningside Heights. I rather doubt these constitute a meaningful form of independent validation. The remaining 'independent' references are either to Dr Omura's annual conference for which he rents space within the School of International and Public Affair on the Columbia University campus each fall. It should be noted that while Dr Omura and his proponents are inclined to act as if this and other superficial 'associations' with Columbia constitute endorsement of the scientific validity of his 'researches' in point of fact SIPA is renting space to what has been represented to it as an international organization. It constitutes neither endorsement nor affiliation. If this point is doubted feel free to contact SIPA and enquire. The remaining 'independent' sources referenced in the list presented above by Richard Malter are simply to www.bdort.net, which is Omura's Japanese site. If this constitutes 'independent' endorsement then this notion of 'independence' similarly to the others, strains most rational or even quasi-rational definitions of the term. More to follow. Fucyfre 02:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

• Re: last comment

As a last comment about this now absurd discussion. Here is just one of the above research links, with the contributors listed. Do you not know that co-researchers tend to be colleagues?! The details of room rental is nothing to do with science. This is a list of scientists on at least 4 continents. What is your qualification to be able to dismiss them? I am not asking these questions rhetorically? What is your scientific degree? What independent research on this topic have you carried out? Where is it published? What were your findings? Did they refute some or all of the BDORT research finding? What were your control parameters in your experiments? Was your research peer reviewed? Have you read Scientific Method? If you are not able to present refuting research then you cannot suggust what you are purporting. I think if this continues we will have to go to arbitration etc.

-DominicP. Lu, DDS, FAGD, FRSH, FICD, FICAE, Cert. ORT-DDS (2 President, American Society for Advancement of Anesthesia in Dentistry Professor of Oral Medicine, University of Pennsylvania Chief, Division of Special Care in Dentistry, and Director of Medical and Dental Externship Education Department of Dental Medicine Lehigh Valley Hospital of Penn State University Medical College -SHIGEHARU Fukuda Ph.D.􀌍􀊣, YOSHINARI Honda2􀊣, TATSUYA Ishihara2􀊣, SHINPEI Ushio Ph.D. 2􀊣 ,KANSO Iwaki2 􀊣, MASAO Ikeda2 􀊣 , MASASHI Kurimoto Ph.D. 2􀊣, YASUHIRO Shimotsuura MD.,F.I.C.A.E., Cert. ORT-MD(5DAN) 􀌏 ) , and YOSHIAKI Omura MD., Sc.D., F.I.C.A.E., FACA,FAAIM, FRSM 4) 1)Amase Institute and 2)Fujisaki Institute, Hayashibara Biochemical Laboratories Inc., Okayama - Chieko Hirobe Ph.D, Cert. ORT-Pharm(1 Dan) 1), Midori Furukawa M.D.,Ph.D2), Nobuko HoriuchiD.D.S.,Ph.D, F.I.C.A.E. Cert. ORT-DDS(2Dan) 3), Toshio Tanaka4), Motomu Ohki M.S., F.I.C.A.E.(Hon.) 5) Yasuhiro Shimotsuura M.D.F.I.C.A.E, Cert. ORT-MD(5Dan) 5)6) - Yuko KOYAMA D.D.S. Ph.D., Cert. ORT-DDS(1Dan), Hiroshi FUKUOKA D.D.S., Ph.D., Cert. ORT-DDS(1Dan) Masataka SUNAGAWA D.D.S., Ph.D., Akira FUKUOKA D.D.S., Ph.D., F.L.C.A.E., Cert. ORT-DDS (3Dan) Fukuoak Dental Clinic Research Laboratory of Integrative Medicine (Tokyo, Japan) -Naoki Ohata,D.D.S.,Ph.D.,Cert.ORT-DDS(1 Keiko Ohata,D.D.S.,Cert.ORT-DDS(1 Dan) Ohata Dental Clinic, Tokyo, Japan -FUJIMAKI Goro D.D.S., Ph.D., Cert. ORT-DDS FUJIMAKI Kotaro D.D.S., Ph.D. Pastoral Dental Office, Tokyo, Japan -V. P. Lysenyuk, M.D., Sc.D., F.I.C.A.E., Cert. ORT-MD (2 Dan) National Medical University, Kiev, Ukraine (e-mail: lysenyuk@i.com.ua) - T. I. Usichenko, M.D. University of Greifswald, Germany -Momir Dunjic, M.D., M.Sc., Medicine Pristina, Institute Yugoslav-BDORT Association. -Slobodan Dunjic, M.D., M.Sc., Milan Jevremovic, M.D., Ph. -Miodrag Stanisic, M.D., Department -Nenad Sulovic, M.D. M.Sc., University Clinical Center Belgrade. -Nemanja Milincic, M.D.,M.Sc., University Clinical Center, Belgrade. -Dusan Vesovic, M.D., PhD, Pharmaceutical Slavisa Stanisic, M.D, Ph.D., Front, Belgrade. -Dejan Radovanovic, M.D., Pharmaceutical Montenegro (Yugoslavia) - IWASA, S., M.D., F.I.C.A.E., Cert. ORT-MD (2 Dan) Orthopaedic Surgeon; Director of Brazilian Medical Association of Acupuncture; Director of Brazilian Omura’s Test Research Center; President of “Fundação ACL” - Foundation for development of the self-accomplishment capacity, communication and leadership of individual - JOJIMA,T, MD, F.I.C.A.E., Cert. ORT-MD (2 Dan) Management of Jojima Medical Clinic; Former President of Brazilian Medical Association of Acupuncture; Director of Brazilian Omura’s Test Research Center - JOJIMA, A..T.T, MD, Surgeon; Specialist in Acupunture; Member of Brazilian Omura’s Test Research Center - Toru Abo M.D., Ph.D. Prof., Department f Immunology, Niigata University Scholl of Medicine, Niigata 951-8510, Japan -The Near Future of BSE, CJD, Prion Disease, Meat Hygiene and near future of Bi-Digital O-Ring Test Toshimitsu MATSUBARA, BSAgr., D.V.M., ORT-DVM (1Dan) Director, Veterinary Science Department, Tokyo General Laboratory Former Professor and Veterinarian, School of Veterinary Medicine, Azabu University President of Veterinary Medical Society, Japan Bi-Digital O-Ring Test Medical Society Certified Lead Researcher of the Japan Society for Laser Surgery and Medicine - Yoshiro Fujii D.D.S. , Ph.D. Shin Kobe Dental Clinic, Kobe City, Hyogo Prefecture - Masataka SUNAGAWA D.D.S., Ph.D. Hiroshi FUKUOKA D.D.S., Ph.D., Cert. ORT-DDS(1Dan) Yuko KOYAMA D.D.S., Ph.D., Cert. ORT-DDS(1Dan) Akira FUKUOKA D.D.S., Ph.D., F.L.C.A.E., Cert. ORT-DDS(3Dan) Fukuoka Dental Clinic Research Laboratory of Integrative Medicine (Tokyo, Japan) - Mituhiro Nishimura M.D., Ph. D., Cert. ORT-MD(1Dan)1) Yasuhiro Shimotsuura M.D., F.I.C.A.E., Cert. ORT-MD(5Dan) 1),2), Yoshiaki Omura M.D., Sc.D., F.A.C.A., F.I.C.A.E., F.A.A.I.M., F.R.S.M. 3) 1) ORT Life Science Research Institute, Kurume, Fukuoka 2) Shimotsuura Clinic, Kurume, Fukuoka 3) Director of Medical Research, Heart Disease Research Foundation, USA - Tokuo Taketani M.D., Ph.D., F.I.C.A.E., Cert. ORT-MD (1Dan􀊣 􀊢Correspondence: Kurobe City Hospital FAX:+81-765-54-1022, taketani@med.kurobe.toyama.jp􀊣 - Heiichi Yano M.D., Ph.D.1), Chika Haryu,B.Sc. 2), Junko Ohkubo,D.D.S. 3) 1) Internal Medicine, Kashiwa Hospital, Jikei University School of Medicine, Chiba, Japan. 2) Division of Pharmacy, Institute of Total Life Aid, Ibaraki, Japan. 3) Ohkubo Dental Clinic,Ibaraki, Japan. - Koichi Kato M.D., Cert. ORT-MD (3 Dan), Daisuke Kato Onoda Hospital, Fukushima 􀊢Correspondence: Onoda Hospital􀀁 FAX􀉿0244􀊵22􀊵2125, e-mail:onodahp@pluto.plala.or.jp􀊣 - Hitoshi Ohzu, Prof. Emeritus, Waseda University, ( Dr.Techn. T. H. Wien) Director of the Institute for Laser Medicine. Neoark Co., Nakanocho, Hachiouji, Tokyo, E-mail: ohzu@neoark.co.jp http://bdort.net/pdf/6thSympoEngAbst.pdf --RichardMalter 03:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)