| Revision as of 09:58, 30 April 2004 editSzopen (talk | contribs)3,757 edits 1) Were bolshevik calling their state "Russia"? 2) Why mentioning Russian Civil War.← Previous edit | Revision as of 11:15, 30 April 2004 edit undoHalibutt (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers34,067 editsNo edit summaryNext edit → | ||
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| ==Name== | |||
| Shouldn't this article be at ] instead? The war ended some two years prior to creation of the ] and the term, although quite frequently used (even in Polish sources), is simply misleading. I'm thinking of moving it. Any objections?] 20:28, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) | Shouldn't this article be at ] instead? The war ended some two years prior to creation of the ] and the term, although quite frequently used (even in Polish sources), is simply misleading. I'm thinking of moving it. Any objections?] 20:28, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) | ||
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| ::Well, i think it was not against Russia and not with Russia - it was against Bolshevik state, which generally i think avoided to be called "Russia", isn't it?! ] 09:58, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) | ::Well, i think it was not against Russia and not with Russia - it was against Bolshevik state, which generally i think avoided to be called "Russia", isn't it?! ] 09:58, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) | ||
| ---- | |||
| :::Well, AAMoF the war is usually called the ], which is the proper name from the Polish side. Sometimes other names are used, but these seem a little tricky or simply wrong. ] seems quite popular too, but the question is whether Russia Poland was waging the war with was '''the''' legitimate Russia (there were at least three or four different Russias at the time - Reds, Whites, other Whites, Anarchists...) and if this name was chosen, it'd suggest that Poland fought against Lenin, Makhno, Ungern von Sternberg, Denikin and all the other Russias involved. | |||
| :::The most widespread name (Polish-Soviet War) is simply wrong since there was no Soviet Union at the time. It's like calling the Ceasars campaign in Gaul a ]. Finally, as to the official name of the parties involved in the war: Poland is sure in this context. The problem is with the Reds since the name of the country is not really certain until later in the twenties. The most common name is ]. That's why I like the ] the most. ] 11:15, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) | |||
| ==Other issues== | |||
| The following text in ] | The following text in ] | ||
| : It was also important time for ]. Many can argue that the final defeat of the Soviet army was caused by Stalin's intrigue. Moreover, in the final stage of the war, he was forced to retreat in panic. Three groups of people, that he met at his way then: Ukrainian peasants, Polish communists, and Polish officers were later subject of persecutions. Ukrainian peasants in millions were starving to death during famine organised by Stalin ]-]. Polish communists were decimated, and Polish minority deported to Kazakhstan during Stalin's purges ]-]. Polish officers were murdered en masse in the ] in 1940. | : It was also important time for ]. Many can argue that the final defeat of the Soviet army was caused by Stalin's intrigue. Moreover, in the final stage of the war, he was forced to retreat in panic. Three groups of people, that he met at his way then: Ukrainian peasants, Polish communists, and Polish officers were later subject of persecutions. Ukrainian peasants in millions were starving to death during famine organised by Stalin ]-]. Polish communists were decimated, and Polish minority deported to Kazakhstan during Stalin's purges ]-]. Polish officers were murdered en masse in the ] in 1940. | ||
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| Tell us why this is a better link than ]. | Tell us why this is a better link than ]. | ||
| <br>--]] 07:30, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC) | <br>--]] 07:30, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC) | ||
| :That's one is easy. Soviet historiography considered Polish_Soviet war to be part of Western interventions in Civil war in Russia. Second, it was directly tied to Russian Civil War: when Denikin was on offensive, |
:That's one is easy. Soviet historiography considered Polish_Soviet war to be part of Western interventions in Civil war in Russia. Second, it was directly tied to Russian Civil War: when Denikin was on offensive, Pilsudski halted advances so not to help him. ] 09:58, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 11:15, 30 April 2004
Name
Shouldn't this article be at Polish-bolshevik war instead? The war ended some two years prior to creation of the Soviet Union and the term, although quite frequently used (even in Polish sources), is simply misleading. I'm thinking of moving it. Any objections?Halibutt 20:28, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- IMO needs change to something else; Russo-Polish also seems appropriate. How about Google-testing the two names. (IMO Bolshevik needs capital B, if you go that route.) --Jerzy(t) 06:00, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC)
- Russo is not apriopriate, since it was not war against Russia, i believe ;) Szopen 06:28, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Are you saying that
- Russia was not involved, or
- Russia was involved, but it was not "against" Russia, e.g. because Poland did not intiate it and just defended itself?
IMO, the term just implies a war involving two countries, like the Spanish-American War, where no one seriously believes Spain was the aggressor.--Jerzy(t) 06:51, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC)
- Well, i think it was not against Russia and not with Russia - it was against Bolshevik state, which generally i think avoided to be called "Russia", isn't it?! Szopen 09:58, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Well, AAMoF the war is usually called the Polish-bolshevik war, which is the proper name from the Polish side. Sometimes other names are used, but these seem a little tricky or simply wrong. Russo-Polish War of 1920 seems quite popular too, but the question is whether Russia Poland was waging the war with was the legitimate Russia (there were at least three or four different Russias at the time - Reds, Whites, other Whites, Anarchists...) and if this name was chosen, it'd suggest that Poland fought against Lenin, Makhno, Ungern von Sternberg, Denikin and all the other Russias involved.
- The most widespread name (Polish-Soviet War) is simply wrong since there was no Soviet Union at the time. It's like calling the Ceasars campaign in Gaul a Franco-Italian War. Finally, as to the official name of the parties involved in the war: Poland is sure in this context. The problem is with the Reds since the name of the country is not really certain until later in the twenties. The most common name is Bolshevik Russia. That's why I like the Polish-Bolshevik War the most. Halibutt 11:15, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Other issues
The following text in the article
- It was also important time for Stalin. Many can argue that the final defeat of the Soviet army was caused by Stalin's intrigue. Moreover, in the final stage of the war, he was forced to retreat in panic. Three groups of people, that he met at his way then: Ukrainian peasants, Polish communists, and Polish officers were later subject of persecutions. Ukrainian peasants in millions were starving to death during famine organised by Stalin 1930-1934. Polish communists were decimated, and Polish minority deported to Kazakhstan during Stalin's purges 1934-1938. Polish officers were murdered en masse in the Katyn massacre in 1940.
- belongs in some other article, and
- is too ill-defined to say what the article would be.
Not ready for prime time.
When a "see also" is in the middle of text, as with
- (See also: genocide)
it is probably always a bad link. (If you can't mention what you're linking to in a declarative sentence, you can't justify linking them.) In this case, it must be insinuating genocidal intent; find a way to say who says so and their justifications for it. Also, in this case, the article linked makes no mention of these events, and is irrelevant beyond the dictionary definition of "genocide". More connection is needed before linking.
Similarly with
- See also: Russian Civil War
Tell us why this is a better link than Innovations in Russian Revolutionary literature.
--Jerzy(t) 07:30, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC)
- That's one is easy. Soviet historiography considered Polish_Soviet war to be part of Western interventions in Civil war in Russia. Second, it was directly tied to Russian Civil War: when Denikin was on offensive, Pilsudski halted advances so not to help him. Szopen 09:58, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)